Medieval Mafia - Game Over

[Yosarian2]

Vote:sam.samhorn

[Yosarian2]

Wow, guys. You all come out pretty strong.

Obviously, I

VOTE KMD4390

WHy? flawed gambits + flawed scum-dar = town liability.

Plus, in an off-topic way, I would like to mention that I am revisiting Pink Floyd's early work. I think I like it better when Gilmour started playing Lead.. though I am sure there are some Syd Barrett purists here that will defy me.

This post=scummy.

[Yosarian2]

The whole "coming out strong" thing was a reference to a past game?
Link please.

No, the Gambit was a reference to a past game. And the "flawed scumdar" is the fact that I pushed a case on her from Day 1 and she was town. I'll find the link if you still want it.

Meh. If you say so.

[Yosarian2]

I call 'overdefensive much' on Camn & Kmd.

Meh. If they're scum together, they're really bad at it.

[Yosarian2]

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTT

Neah. You don't do it right.

[Yosarian2]

You know, you're supposed to claim scum first, and then confirm a few people as town. If you're going to pull a Quagmire manuever, you might as well go all the way with it.

[Yosarian2]

I've seen both real pro-town millers and scum claim like this. I'm not quite in the "lynch all millers" camp anymore, but normally a miller is still at least a pretty good lynch.

I'm a little unsure in this case, though; if a scum has a one-shot daykill, why would he claim it so early, instead of just sitting back quietly and waiting, and using it for a surprise endgame win, or to pick off a cop the moment he claims, or something? While I don't trust a "miller-vig" claim, obv, I'm not sure I see the logic for a scum with a one shot day kill to claim "miller-day-vig" on day 1; nor do I see the logic of, say, a day-SK to claim that, or any other plausable scum with a daykill that I can think of. That being said, if there's even a small risk of him being scum, TSQ's plan to make him use his kill right now might be for the best.

Zwet, does your role have any other details or flavor?

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you know as well as I do that the logic for the meta policy is not because he's sure to be scum, but rather that we have to make the meta for miller claims unacceptable for scum.

(shrug) Well, I suppose, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the town's chances this game in order to advance some meta; I don't really think that's either a good idea or an effective one.

In any case, I'd be more inclined to have a balance; something like "lynch a claimed miller 25% more often then you would lynch a claimed vanillia in the same situation"; that's probably enough to discourage scum from claiming miller that often (especally considering how often you should lynch a claimed vanillia anyway).

Of course, in this unusual case, he's not a claimed vanillia, so it'd more like "25% more often then you'd lynch a claimed one shot dayvig in the same situation". Which is probably still not that high.

[Yosarian2]

Also, are we all trying to outguess the mod? DGB camn, you guys should know better. At least, DGB definitely should. You know damn well OGML is a very experienced mod who knows not to fall into standard meta pitfalls.

Nah. Still. Not buying the dayvig-scum.

Meh, no reason there can't be daykilling-scum, I've seen mafia members with one-shot daykills before more then once, and a daykilling SK isn't out of the question either.

Now, as I said, I do tend to doubt a scum with a daykill would claim so out of the blue on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

I dont policy lynch millers. I lynch based on behaviour. If you are scummy you die. This isnt about general meta. This is about this game.
Your kill should definitely be used today and in the second suspect of the day.
With that said I disagree with TSQ plan.

Why, pop?

If you think the claimed daykiller is likely to be scum, forcing him to use his daykill on day 1 is good both because it tests his claim, and because if he is scum with a daykill it's obv much better to get him to use it on a target of the town's choice, and ASAP.

On the other hand, if you don't think he's scum, then I'm a little fuzzy on why him using his one-shot kill day 1 is the most pro-town way to use the kill. Could you elaborate on why you think it is?

[Yosarian2]

Tadaa! I am not a miller or a dayvig. Behold my awesomeness. Discuss reactions. You're welcome.

(sigh) Ok. Here's my reaction.

Vote:Zwets

Die scum die.

Reasons for this:

1. A player claims X, then, when he realizes he's going to have to actually prove his claim, suddenly says "Hah, I was just kidding guys". Probably lying scum.

2. Last time I saw someone claim dayvig, then unclaim it when the town tried to direct his kill, the guy was actually a scum dayvig and just didn't want to be forced to kill his scumbuddy.

3. He claimed miller, then unclaimed miller. Now, if a cop investigates him and gets a guilty, he'll probably re-claim miller. Let's just lynch him now.

4. Lynch all liars. At least, when they're scum.

5. I don't even care if he claims again before he dies, it'll probably be another lie anyway. There's like a 1/10 chance he's town pulling a stupid gambit, but if he is, he would have to be a complete idiot to do so if he had a useful power role anyway.

Let's just hang him right now. And I mean, RIGHT NOW. It'd be nice to see a day 1 end before page 8 for once, games were better when that was the norm.

[Yosarian2]

Ideally, I would like to see him dead before he gets to post again, just in case he is a scum dayvig. I am 100% serious about this.

[Yosarian2]

Tadaa! I am not a miller or a dayvig. Behold my awesomeness. Discuss reactions. You're welcome.

(sigh) Ok. Here's my reaction.

Vote:Zwets

FAIL

You are not reading my posts.

I read your posts. I just don't care. He needs to die, and he needs to do it yesterday or so.

[Yosarian2]

I read your posts.

Are you ignoring the hints on purpose?

...

You said you can read his tone, and that you think he's town; I'm not surprised by that, especally, nor do I have a problem with you saying that, since that's a normal part of your playstyle and one that's often effective, but it didn't convince me of anything.

If you were hinting at something else, though, then I totally missed it. If you are, like, 100% sure he's town for some kind of role-based reason, then I'll unvote him and I won't ask for any more details today.

Don't screw with me, though; I've let you get away with fake claims in other games because of your meta, but not here. This is NOT the time to fake role info, or you could REALLY screw the town over, ok?

[Yosarian2]

If you were hinting at something else, though, then I totally missed it. If you are, like, 100% sure he's town for some kind of role-based reason, then I'll unvote him and I won't ask for any more details today.

I'm not saying I have rolebased info. But his character has two brothers. He's not Gawain; he's one of Gawain's three sons.

And that supposed to make him less likely to be scum because...

He may be a mason.

Meh. Ok, I see what you mean. (Actually, I thought after you told me you had dropped "hints" that you were about to claim Gawain or something, but never mind that.) It's kind of a weak flavor argument, but I'll relent far enough to say that I'm now willing to give him a chance to claim for realz before we kill him. If he does it fast.

By the way; could you point to which of his posts let you "tell that it was nothing but provication" from his tone? Beacuse I don't get that vibe from any of his early posts, at all, except perhaps the post where he unclaimed and that could very easily be faked.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I don't really need to hear about any other games; I'm just curious which of his posts in this game gives you that vibe when you read them.

[Yosarian2]

I am thinking. I think he's scum.

He made a claim, he couldn't back it up, so he changed it.

You're right, it's easy. That's not a bad thing, not when the evidence is so clear.

Is there a chance he's just really dumb town? I guess; I've seen some people do really dumb things as town lately. It dosn't seem likely to me, though.

[Yosarian2]

fos:caboose

[Yosarian2]

I don't like how DGB is is setting herself up for the classic "I told you so" D2 if zwet flips town.

I think this post looks scummy. DGB looks like a town who thinks zwet is town and is trying to stop a lynch. If anyone looks like they have inside information, it's you; I really, really distrust you making this post while still voting for Zwet, makes me wonder if you're a scum who's playing us all and setting up future mislynches.

[Yosarian2]

Vote Zwet

Ideally, I would like to see him dead before he gets to post again, just in case he is a scum dayvig. I am 100% serious about this.

This is a good point. If he's scum dayvig, I don't want to give him a chance to shoot a townie.

DGB is my second suspect right now.

One thing about zwet, is, in my mind, absolutely certain.

He's no dayvig.

..and now, by the laws of irony, he will re-appear in the thread and dayvig a cop.

[Yosarian2]

I'm actually William Wallace, and I can target someone every night. If the person is nightkilled, then I die instead. I'm your official martyr, folks, and TSQ is scum.

Nice OMGUS there. You're so scum.

On a side note: DGB, I count 8 people voting Zwet, and there were 8 votes on him in the votecount. Will this double vote thing show up in the votecount, or is there actually one more vote on him then is showing up now? That would make him at lynch -1.

[Yosarian2]

We fucking serious people? Seriously, stop unvoting. I do not get what makes this claim so believable; and after reading about William Wallace, I really don't see how martyr (or bodyguard for that matter) fits for him. And we should not be letting him get away with his OMGUS on shea.

What is believable is that scum will do everything in its power to reduce discussion and ensure the quickest, least informative mislynch possible. Thanks for helping the scum's agenda.

Unless Zwet is scum, in which case the "scum agenda" would be to stall and delay the lynch until the waters are so muddy that the town's short attention span wanders and someone else gets lynched instead. Which is already starting to happen.

It dosn't help that his vote on TSQ is just terrible. Nothing TSQ has done so far this game seems like it'd be more likely to come from scum-TSQ then town TSQ. Voting a claimed miller day 1 is a perfectly reasonable move, especally when the guy is freaking lying about his role anyway. The only excuse he gave was "TSQ should know my meta", which makes no sense, unless Zwet has a habit of claiming miller-vig on day 1, getting backed into a corner where he had to either prove his claim or die, and then admitting he was lying all along.

[Yosarian2]

And it is still a null-tell. Attacking someone's activity, regardless of his activity in other games, is ridiculous to do on day 1.

Although this is pretty much just wrong; lurking is a great scumtell, and day 1 is a great time to go lurkerhunting, or even lurker lynching if it's absolutly necessary.

That being said, the time to lynch a lurker is not the point when you've just cornered a scum into a position where he was forced to admit his entire roleclaim was a complete lie. And who claimed to be a miller and then "un-claimed" miller when it looked like he was going to take more flak for it then it was worth. And who claimed he was "trying to get reactions", but has not made any comments on any of the "reactions" from his lies at all, except to OMGUS vote someone who voted him for perfectly legitimate reasons, and to do so without any real analysis of his "reaction".

[Yosarian2]

You already came out and said that you have information to believe that he is town. If you have said information, you not releasing it is hurting the town. Call it rolefishing, but no one is going to believe you until you explain it fully.

That would require a full roleclaim, which I'm not giving.
No, not releasing the info is not bad for the town, it's bad for the scum's ability to decide if I'm worth nightkilling or not.

I don't need or want a roleclaim from you, but it would be useful to know if you mean, say, you believe his role flavor for reasons related to your role flavor, or something.

Zwet: You know, you still haven't really explained the vote on TSQ, and now you're making another OMGUS vote without any reasoning? If you do have some kind of pro-town reason to suspect Sam, I'd like to hear it.

[Yosarian2]

Horray for lurker wagons.

Vote:Jebus

[Yosarian2]

You can do better than that... haha.

There's nothing better then a lurkerwagon.

[Yosarian2]

Better at what?

Better at increasing town's chances of winning in the long run? Better as in, really really fun? Something like that.

[Yosarian2]

Jebus is being wagoned strictly for lurking?

If you look at my post you'll find that I made a case against Jebus earlier on.

You did. But others, mainly Xyl, are only voting him for lurking.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Yosarian2]

TSQ: I will mention that DGB has been improving lately, especally with the "focus on someone and then never change your mind no matter what" thing; she's been more flexable and less tunnel-visioned in recent games I've played wih her.

[Yosarian2]

I'm still sick, but I'm going to try to get caught back up on this game.

The argument between DGB and TSQ is really silly. I have no opinion on that.

Nice fencesit.
+scumpoints

Fos:Caboose

Considering what the DGB/TSQ argument was about, this feels like you're trying to shoehorn a generic scumtell into a situation where it dosn't at all apply, and that seems scummy to me.

Let's see...then Kore replaced in, with perhaps the awesomest summery ever.

Jebus actually posted (!), although it was one of those darn "I'm here, will read and post later" posts. If he dosn't actualy "read and post" in the next few days, I'm totally in favor of just lynching him and being done with it.

qwints acts scummy, refuses to explain himself.

Here's how I think the lurker problem gets fixed:

Those who lurk get prodded continually, or replaced. Those that get replaced are replaced by someone who's usually more talkative.

Those who lurk and then get called out on it sometimes see a rise in activity when they do. I have a sense that Jebus will begin posting.

Sometimes there are those who lurk but post just enough to bypass mod proddings and replacement are those that we need to really pay attention to. And it's difficult to gauge who those people are on day one, so it's best to wait until other days to do it.

Eh...in my experence, a lot of people lurk but still pay attention to the game; you'd be surprised how often a lurker shows up right after a few votes appear on him.

Especially when we have this hasgfas scumbag over here who's so obviously mafia I can't begin to explain to you.

Try, please.

Right now, my gut is suspicious of Sam and Caboose, and both Jebus and qwints apparently need to be pressured to act in a more pro-town way. My vote could happily go on any of the 4 at the moment. I'll try to do targeted re-reads of them in a little while.

[Yosarian2]

WTF? Why are a bunch of people making these crappy attacks on me that I can't possibly defend myself from because they lack a case? Kore? camn?

@yos: Why does the fencesitting scumtell not apply?

Because I was assuming that what Stark was talking about was the un-game-related, "I hate her playstyle so much I almost want to be replaced out" personality dispute between DGB and TSQ. He said it was "silly" and basically decided to not get invovled in it, which is usually a smart move when an argument based mostly on outside-the-game-emotions happens inside of a mafia game.

[Yosarian2]

I dunno, I keep waiting for you to accuse me of busing him.

[Yosarian2]

Did my softclaim look scummy to anyone?
If so, explain how it's a scumtell.

"softclaiming" can be a scumtell, but I don't think what you did was softclaiming, Caboose; you claimed you had role-based info that a certain person was probably pro-town, and you claimed that in order to prevent his lynch. That's a perfectly valid reason to do a partial claim.

[Yosarian2]

I'm gonna feel bad about my performance in the game if I get lynched day one, but it won't hurt the town too much.

Now, on the other hand, THAT is what I would call a scummy soft claim.

Unvote:Jeebes

Vote:qwints

[Yosarian2]

Also, I'm still waiting for Sam to answer my question. Sam, why, exactally, are you suspicious of hasdafquafas?

My current suspect list:

1: qwints
2: Sam
3: Jeebs

[Yosarian2]

2. Qwintscum would have left the wagon but with what purpose? Nobody would have given him shit for pushing such a perfect wagon.

(shrug) Very often, around day 3 or 4, people go back, see who was on each bandwagon at lynch, and compare who was on which townie wagons to who was on which scum wagons. For that reason, scum often don't like actually having their vote on a townie wagon at the moment it goes to a lynch, or at least not to have that happen too often.

I know what you're saying, but I don't think the behavior would be unlikely for qwints-scum.

[Yosarian2]

I mean, don't get me wrong; now that we know zwet was pro-town, this post has to be considered to be a good pro-town post from quints.

unvote

Caboose vouching for zwet combined w/ zwet claiming bodyguard means I don't want to lynch zwet today.

The problem is, reading over qwints' posts now, it is almost the only good pro-town post he's made all game. (the only other one that looks even slightly pro-town to me is when he jumped on the jeebs wagon)

[Yosarian2]

I get hascow's paranoid reaction to the vig?? kill. As even though zwet was town and he made this game go to hell in a handbasket. And I didn't think he was scum and agreed with DGB (I'm going to hell now). All that said it made me wonder based on a few games (including my own) where that was a scum or town doing the kill.
He asked where else he role fished from TSQ.

I don't think we want or need the daykiller to claim today, because I'm 95% sure the daykiller is pro-town. No way a scum with a one-shot daykill would waste it on a guy who was about to be lynched and, even if he had somehow survived, had claimed a pretty weak power role anyway.

[Yosarian2]

[
Also, if he's not bus'ing farside, why was he all over her from the moment the game started? She wasn't even there! And he was babbling on like he had some solid evidence.

If he was not bus'ing farside, perhaps he was anticipating that she'll be her usual scummy self and easy to lynch?

Did you go back and read the post where he voted farside?

I could have sworn that all we had was a confirmation phase. Why is everyone act like we had a night 0?

What are you talking about?

People asked why DGB was still alive. My thought well because there was no night 0 that is why.
I just voted for her because she loves to BW me to death.

Unvote, Vote Farside

Looks like a perfectly good "first non-random" vote to me; there were at least two different (although minor) scummy-ish things in that farside post he quoted. Nothing that's a big deal, but better then keeping a random vote.

[Yosarian2]

Watch out, yos... She'll decide you're my scumbuddy too.

Oh, she already suggested that, several pages ago.

[Yosarian2]

There is also this post, coming immediately after TSQ's initial farside vote:

FYI,

my current vote is not random

.

Emphasis mine.

Right. Like I just pointed out, he had a perfectly good, non-random reason for putting his vote there; and also, by making clear his vote was non-random, he'd likely get more useful reactions from it, since everyone just ignores random votes most of the time. Nothing there seems inconsitant with what I would expect from town-TSQ. Not that I'm convinced he's town; his scum playstyle is very, very close to his town playstyle, he's not easy to read. Just that nothing he's done is inconsistant with my meta on him.

So I just went back and checked, so far this game DGB has accused me of being scum with:

Zwet: Town
Jebus
farside
Sam

Looking back, there's never ever any reasoning given for why she thinks I'm scum. The logic, initially, seems to be that I am attacking zwet, who she at the time thought was town, then she decides that zwet was scum, and then the attack became that I was busing him, then she decided that I also "had it in" for farside, which was also of course busing, and by extension I must be scum with jebus and sam.

Does that make a bit of sense to anyone at all?

Town-DGB tends to throw around a lot of accusations, and gets all kinds of reactiosn from people that way; if you pay attention to when she makes the accusations (not so much what she says, always, but what's going on in the game at the time) you usually see she has good reasons for them. While she's making the accusations, she always sounds totally 100% sure she's right, but if there's reason to think she was wrong, she changes course. By the end of the day, in recent games I've seen her as town, she seems to end up pointing the right way more often then not, largely because she's much more ameanable to logical arguments and such and is much less tunnel-visioned then she used to be; all in all, in the past year or so, she's actually forged a rather effective pro-town playing style.

Nothing in her playstyle yet seems inconsistant with what I'd expect from her as town. Frankly, except for her attacks on you, I haven't disagreed with much she's said today; and I'm not surprised by her attacks on you, since your playstyle and hers are so different.

[Yosarian2]

TSQ...there's no reason for that...

[Yosarian2]

Yes, there is. I can not play like this. My anger is clouding my play, and I am going to be a detriment to the town if I keep letting her prod me like that. It will continue happening, and I will not enjoy this game, and will eventually start avoiding it, and start lurking, and thats not good for anyone.

I really don't think she was trying to "prod" you. She was accusing you of using your dislike for her playstyle as a shield to defend against her attacks on you. I understand why that could make you angry, being accused of faking emotions tends to really piss people off (I remember what happened with MOS in that one horrible, horrible invitational game, oh my lord) but honestly, it's not an illogical case for her to be making.

[Yosarian2]

I really don't get this whole DGB and TSQ issue, but I would really like it to stop.

Well, considering Shea just requested replacement, I think it just did stop. Sigh.

[Yosarian2]

Wow. Take a couple hours off, and I see what happens.

Hey Qwints.. did you soft-claim vanilla a couple pages back?

Eh...I observed the possible soft claim and attacked him for it, but even so I'm a little uncomfortable with you actually asking him if he's soft-claiming vanillia. I donno if that says more about you or about me, but I figured I'd mention it.

[Yosarian2]

I agree, a softclaim is bad. I voted him for it. But actually asking him if he is vanillia or not, which is what you basically just did, bugs me a little, because if he actually answers that question it'd be bad, right?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, the vanilla part? I read it as him claiming vanilla.
And I just want him to confirm or deny.

Why would it be bad if he answers? It would delete any wiggle room on his part.

Well, if he's scum, it dosn't matter. If he isn't, though, then him claiming "vanillia or not vanillia" would be bad, for obvious reasons.

If you think he should claim because he's about to get lynched, that's a different thing (although I still think that no one should EVER claim vanillia, under ANY circumstances).

[Yosarian2]

How is it legit?
That is.. how does it help the town?

Were you here when Caboose did it?

It's a legit town strategy sometimes.

What caboose did was not softclaiming. It was a partial claim, to share role-based information. That's a very, very different ball of wax.

[Yosarian2]

Great now that TSQ is gone I'm beating DGB will continue with her bussing theory where I can laugh in her face when shown as town.

Oh relax. Either he bus'ed you, or saw you as an easy victim to push into making mistakes that look scummy. Only you know which. I can only speculate.

...why do you keep repeating this over and over again after your basic premise has been repeatedly shown to be false?

[Yosarian2]

(although I still think that no one should EVER claim vanillia, under ANY circumstances).

What should a real vanilla claim in your opinion? (Actual theory question because I've never heard this and you are a respectable player)

A vanillia town should never claim anything at all, I think. Lying is not an option; and you claiming vanillia should not make the town any less likely to lynch you anyway compared to a person who just won't claim, and if you claim vanillia and then don't get lynched your vanillia claim helps the scum.

I tend to think that the only time it might (note:

might

) be a good idea for a person to claim under pressure is if he thinks his claim may prevent his lynch, or if he has useful informaton to share; otherwise, there's no point, and it can only hurt the town.

[Yosarian2]

Isn't a refusal to claim basically a vanilla claim anyway then?

Well...it can be, but not neccessarally. It depends.

[Yosarian2]

At the very least it keeps the scum guessing.

[Yosarian2]

Yes, I soft claimed vanilla.

It was designed to illustrate that soft claiming need not be anti-town.

...

confirm vote:qwints

[Yosarian2]

To be clear; there can be situations for a partial claim, or even some kinds of soft claim, softclaiming vanillia is ALWAYS very anti-town. There is never a situation where it helps the town, at all, while the kind of post you made is a clear signal to the scum "Hey, guys, don't bother killing with me, power roles are elsewhere", which makes it much easier for them to find and kill the power roles. And then, of course, you compounded the anti-town action by then actually claiming vanillia, even after I'd just explained why a vanillia claim is never a good idea...

Still, anti-town as your actions have been, the biggest thing you would need to do in order to get me to unvote you would be to actually start playing mafia. You know, start scumhunting, start discussing stuff, start posting more then just empty bandwagon following stuff. If we don't lynch you today, qwints, who do you think we should lynch?

[Yosarian2]

Great now that TSQ is gone I'm beating DGB will continue with her bussing theory where I can laugh in her face when shown as town.

Oh relax. Either he bus'ed you, or saw you as an easy victim to push into making mistakes that look scummy. Only you know which. I can only speculate.

...why do you keep repeating this over and over again after your basic premise has been repeatedly shown to be false?

Show me where my basic premise has been proven to be false. I don't believe that you can. Until you do, my argument stands.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your premise was "TSQ non-random voted Farside when she wasn't even around, he clearly had no real reason to non-random vote her, so he must have been either bussing or trying to get an easy lynch."

So, I took a look at the post in question, and:

Did you go back and read the post where he voted farside?

I could have sworn that all we had was a confirmation phase. Why is everyone act like we had a night 0?

What are you talking about?

People asked why DGB was still alive. My thought well because there was no night 0 that is why.
I just voted for her because she loves to BW me to death.

Unvote, Vote Farside

Looks like a perfectly good "first non-random" vote to me; there were at least two different (although minor) scummy-ish things in that farside post he quoted. Nothing that's a big deal, but better then keeping a random vote.

So, not only was your statement that "farside wan't around" just false, the whole jist of your argument seemed to be that there was something wrong with TSQ's initial farside vote, and I really don't get that at all; looks to me like he had a perfectly rational reason to vote her, especally considering it was only page 2; how much of a case do you expect him to be able to make on page 2?

[Yosarian2]

I've seen enough scum bus right out of the garage to recognize likely signs.

(shrug)

Later on, after farside goes VLA, he keeps harping on farside.

(re-reads again) No, he really dosn't. People keep asking him about his farside vote, and he responds to them, but I don't see any sign he's "harping" on it.

At some much later point, he mentions how he forgot how farside has provoked his ire, and that he wants to check it out again or some such.

Sure, after Zwet died, he decided to go back and find other suspects. Makes sense to me.

I just don't at all see this case you're trying to make here, DGB. You have a problem with his actions on the Zwet-wagon, fine; I could totally see him doing all that stuff as town, but I can understand why you might think it looks scummy; but there's really nothing at all wrong with his vote for farside.

[Yosarian2]

Well, it is an incredibly, incredibly anti-town position. And he specifically said he was "policy lynching" you, which means lynching you, not for your alignment per se, but becasue you were pushing an incredibly anti-town action.

Do you disagree? Do you not think that refusing to vote is anti-town?

[Yosarian2]

Do you disagree? Do you not think that refusing to vote is anti-town?

No. One player refusing to vote never causes a no-lynch

Never? I doubt that.

Even if it dosn't cause a no-lynch, it means that, if you are town and not voting, scum have more influince, since they control a higher % of the vote and more townies now need to jump on a wagon they might not like to ensure a lynch. It means that a higher percentage of wagons that are started will be started by scum, since you're clearly not starting any wagons if you're not voting. It means that it's that much more likely for any number of things to go wrong close to deadline. And, most of all, it means that you're not leaving a voting record, so we get less info about you.

One person absolutly refusing to vote at all on day 1 is incredibly anti-town, Kore.

, and the very unusual personal choice causes highly important (and sometimes badly needed) stimulation and dynamics for the first day, as well as obviously strong reactions (as witnessed here).

Well, yes, if you do something blatently anti-town and rather scummy, you'll get "strong reactions". That dosn't mean it's a good idea, or that it's useful.

[Yosarian2]

Qwints is not optymal. If he is scum it would be so fucking obvious the following days.

If Qwints wants there to be any chance of me unvoting him, then, like I said, he needs to post some real content. If he's not willing to do that, then it's very unlikely I'll unvote the claimed-vanillia lurker scumbag. I mean, frankly, "scummy looking claimed vanillia lurker" is pretty much my favorate type of day 1 lynch.

[Yosarian2]

About Jeebes: You don't think posting "I'm still here, am trying to catch up" stall messages, doing them just barely often enough to not get replaced, and nothing, else, is scummy?

[Yosarian2]

What I really want to know is why Yosarian2 is being so quiet this game.

...I assume you're joking, right? I mean, considering I have 60 posts so far in the just 12 days since this game started...

[Yosarian2]

Xyl: Could you give us a hint? Like, perhaps, was there one specific post of qwints that you read and your gut said "yeah, he's probably town"?

[Yosarian2]

It's more the fact that the wagon against him got big fast on weak evidence.

Ah, the old "we can lynch him so we obviously shouldn't lynch him" argument.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos2 - Do you think qwints soft-claim makes him more or less likely to be

scum

?

I think the soft vanillia claim, and the later full vanillia claim, are both scummy (which means, a person who does them is more likely to be scum). Not to a huge extent, since that's mistakes i've seen pro-town people do before, but it's something town should be less likely to do then scum.

Beyond that, it's also anti-town, and increases the EV to the town of lynching him in three different ways (0% chance he's a power role; lynching him means less people claim today; plus a claimed vanillia townies is inherently less useful then an unclaimed townie, since half the job of a vanillia townie is to soak up scum kills). I'm usually pretty happy lynching a claimed vanillia day 1; it's just the town's best bet, all around. Combine that with his general uselessness so far today (which is also both a scumtell and another factor that makes him even less useful if he is town), and I'm pretty happy with lynching him.

[Yosarian2]

Being useless isnt a scumtell. Specially with someone like qwints.

How could "player X does not seem interested in helping the town" possibly not be a sign that perhaps that player dosn't have a pro-town alignment?

It's not a 100% guarenteed scumtell, of course, nothing is, but it definatly is a scumtell.

[Yosarian2]

Everybody on this stark wagon is super scummy!

Why, exacatlly? And why?

Every vote is a "policy vote" and not instead a measure of his actual scumminess.

I don't think anyone specifically said they were policy voting Stark; again, could you be specific?

Policy votes are scummy at this stage in the game

Why?

Also, I noticed you didn't answer Xylthixlm's question.

Which stage of the game? Day 1?

[Yosarian2]

I don't think anyone specifically said they were policy voting Stark; again, could you be specific?

Please state the case on stark and why he's scummy.

The case on Stark is that basically he hasn't done anything yet, which generally is scummy.

I'm going to be blatently inconsistant here and say that I'm not as interested in lynching Stark today as other people who have done nothing, but I don't see anything scummy about the people on the wagon.

[Yosarian2]

I'm sorry...what separates stark from qwints?

Well, for one, qwints first softclaimed and then claimed vanillia. For no reason. (No, wait; he gave a reason, he claimed he was "softclaiming vanillia to prove softclaiming isn't anti-town", or some garbage like that, and then refused to explain it when asked how that makes any kind of sense at all.)

[Yosarian2]

But I will say this.
I read Pop as sftclaiming.. and sam as softclaiming.

On a side note; I didn't see anything either of them said, at all, as softclaiming; so this almost sounds like camm is fishing here, especally in regards to Sam.

[Yosarian2]

How much pot would I have to smoke to understand stark's post?

Eh? Made perfect sense to me.

[Yosarian2]

Who was that question directed to, Xyl?

[Yosarian2]

Well, considering this whole clain of posts:

I'm buying the zwet claim.

Unvote

Why?

I have role-based info that leads me to believe that your claim is true.

Unvote zwet. I'm pretty sure he's telling the truth.

I'm not sold on the Jebus case since there are other lurkers here (CW, stark).

You already came out and said that you have information to believe that he is town. If you have said information, you not releasing it is hurting the town. Call it rolefishing, but no one is going to believe you until you explain it fully.

That would require a full roleclaim, which I'm not giving.
No, not releasing the info is not bad for the town, it's bad for the scum's ability to decide if I'm worth nightkilling or not.

And considering that he was right about Zwet being town, and that he was therefore trying very hard and sticking his neck out pretty far to try and prevent a town-lynch, I'm willing to consider Caboose as (provisionally) pro-town for now. We'll know more eventually when Caboose does a full role-claim, but for the moment, I would not be willing to consider a Caboose lynch at all today.

As for populartajo; I'm not sure about him. For one thing, I don't really get what his case was on Farside or on hascow. However, he seemed pretty sure about it, so I'm not sure why he dropped it to vote Stark, or why he was defending qwints so hard then voted someone lse for lurking. None of that is necesarally scummy, but it's very interesting and I don't really understand his logic for any of it, and I expect to look back on it later once I know more about the alignments of some of those people.

[Yosarian2]

Stark, I refuse to read your wall of text, just like I refuse to read all wall's of txts.

If you had a specific point to it, feel free to post it.

Ugh.

[Yosarian2]

But I will say this.
I read Pop as sftclaiming.. and sam as softclaiming.

On a side note; I didn't see anything either of them said, at all, as softclaiming; so this almost sounds like camm is fishing here, especally in regards to Sam.

When people say stuff like "so-and-so is definitely town; i guarantee it." or "please guys.. don't lynch so-an-so.. but I can't explain why".. I read that as claiming inside information.

This could be PR info.. or they could simply be scum.

And when I see you say stuff like that, I read that as you trying to find out if they have inside information. People say "I'm sure X is town" or whatever all the time. It might mean a lot of things.

To me,

scum

softclaim. . . trying to subconciously convince townies that they are Power-roles, and shouldn't be lynched.

"I'm positive X is town" is not a softclaim, at all. Now, it can be a scum tell, but that's a different issue all together.

[Yosarian2]

Um Camn...How is stark confirmed?

I think she was being sarcastic. Sam "guaranteed" that Stark was town. Btw, I think that's Sam's opinion, not a softclaim.

I think it was because Stark said he was confirmed. Which, I thought, was just a continuation of this thing:

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTT

Neah. You don't do it right.

That's ok, it's close enough.


So right now, we know that DGB and Shea are confirmed town.

So right now, why don't the two of you name your top suspect for scum.

Then we can move on from there.

And that, like the "Pfffftttt" thing (as I said at the time), was sort of a reference to a really funny (and, oddly, kind of effective) stratagy Quagmire used several times at Starkadium, where he'd start off a game saying "Ether, are you scum? No? BA, are you scum? You're not? Ok, Ether and BA are both confirmed town."

[Yosarian2]

stark isn't confirmed town.

I know.

Can we go back to lynching him?

This. ^^;

fos:Crywolf

Guy makes one post, you refuse to read it because it's "too long", which is crazy considering how much less he's posted in total then most people, now you want to lynch him without actually reading what he said?

Pfffttt.

[Yosarian2]

I'm also confirmed town anyways.

stark is town; i guarantee it.

That's the mason subclaim, people.

Uhh...that's not a mason subclaim at all. Not even a little.

[Yosarian2]

This stark wagon is weaksause. I don't have a read on his alignment or anything, I'm not going to repeat Sam and say he's "obviously town", but no one has given anything like a good reason to be voting Stark here.

[Yosarian2]

Camm: I'm confused. Why, exactally, are you voting Stark?

b) the case on qwints is just as weak

Qwints claimed vanillia, for no reason, and is refusing to be at all useful. That's not a bad case. What's the case for stark?

Thus:
C) it is more productive for us to lynch stark.

Do you think Stark is likely to be scum? If so, why?

We get more opinions, we even get info from stark himself! Which, whichever way he flips, is useful.

So...you want to lynch Stark because he's posting and qwints isn't?

[Yosarian2]

scotmany: Someone says "I'm confirmed town" and you assume they're

joking

?

Uh, he was. I already explained this, Xyl.

[Yosarian2]

I see a link between him and Sam.

So...sam thinks he's town, and that makes them both scum?

I am personally somewhat suspicious of sam. But if Sam is scum, then Stark is almost certanly town.

He refuses to answer questions in a straightforward way.

What question didn't he answer?

He threatens to bring a case on me .... lets see it.

What post are you talking about here? You're making a case; quote the post, and explain how you think it is scummy.

So...you want to lynch Stark because he's posting and qwints isn't?

B) In a way... YES. To me they are equivalently scummy, and equivalently useless to the town. If, by lynching them, one gives us a couple good posts worth of evidence on their potential scumbuddies.... I choose that one to put the heat on.

That's horrible logic. If one of them is "giving a couple of good posts", then that makes him less "useless to the town" then the other. It sounds like you want to lynch him because he is lurking, and you want to lynch him because he is posting.

[Yosarian2]

scotmany: If I said "I'm a mason with camn", and everyone took me seriously, and then later I said I was just joking... would that be scummy?

If anyone took Stark seriously, it would mean that they weren't actually reading the game very closely.

[Yosarian2]

I'm really having trouble accepting something which 3 out of the 7 people on the stark wagon took as a serious claim and unvoted because of, as an "obvious joke".

Well, I figured everyone would have realized the whole "confirmed town" thing was an inside joke when I responded to the initial comment with this, waaaay back on Febuary 12th, long before there was a stark wagon:

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTT

Neah. You don't do it right.

That's ok, it's close enough.


So right now, we know that DGB and Shea are confirmed town.

So right now, why don't the two of you name your top suspect for scum.

Then we can move on from there.

You know, you're supposed to claim scum first, and then confirm a few people as town. If you're going to pull a Quagmire manuever, you might as well go all the way with it.

[Yosarian2]

I think we've just established that a lot of people will give anything a free pass if they think it's a joke.

There may be a valid reason, somewhere, to be voting Stark. I donno. I do know that the "I am confirmed" thing is not a reason, at all.

You seem to be missing the point. It's not "If X is a joke it's not scummy", that's obviously not true. The point more was that "You completly misinterpreted his post, because you complely misunderstood what he was trying to say, now you're trying to attack him because of your mistake."

So, just explain this to me. Why is it you think Stark is scum?

[Yosarian2]

The next person to make a joke will automatically be getting my vote.

So, a 12 year old boy walks into a whorehouse, dragging a dead frog on a string...

[Yosarian2]

He was saying he was "confirmed town" because sam said "stark is town, I guarentee it." That is the joke...

Ok, let me just say this one more time. It was a running thing at Starkadium, the meet from last summer (which is why both me and TSQ got the joke, as you can see from looking back at the page.) Quagmire (at first; other people did it afterwards) would just declare two people to be town, right at the start of a game, and keep insisting they were confirmed for the rest of the game. It was really strange, and funny, but oddly effective, actually. (The first few times Quagmire did it, he actually first claimed scum and then said "Ok, I'm scum, and I'm going to now confirm for you guys that both Ether and Shea are town." Really amusing.) That's what Stark was doing here. (By the way, the PFFFTTT thing TSQ did was also a running theme from Starkadium).

Now, I'm not going to say it's a town tell, or anything, but it is totally irrelevent of alignment; and Stark only started referencing that because TSQ made that Starkadium reference anyway.

The other point you made was about the bandwagon, but, meh; I was under the impression that the first Stark wagon was about him lurking, and the current one is about the "confirmed" thing, so I don't think it's too unreasonable for him to say that he's being bandwagoned because of the confirmed thing.

[Yosarian2]

Has: Is that basically a role cop?

[Yosarian2]

Is it too late to switch to crywolf?

I'd be on board that wagon.

I'm not in favor of lynching has today; I dislike the idea of lynching a claimed information role day 1 without very good reason, especally since his claimed role is so very confirmable.

[Yosarian2]

Sure, let's go for it.

Unvote

Vote:Crywolf

Really think this wagon is the most likely to hit scum.

If we get close to deadline and it looks like the crywolf wagon isn't going to happen, I'll go back to the Qwints wagon. Either one would be fine with me.

[Yosarian2]

Quick reminder:

7. A lynch suffers the requirement of a simple majority. If there is no majority at deadline, there will be no lynch.

Which means everyone needs to get in here and vote someone, now; we don't have much time left, and need a real majority.

[Yosarian2]

Not Voting: 3 (stark, Korejora, Rogueben)

The three of you need to vote, ASAP.

[Yosarian2]

Stark:

Strangely i have to agree with Caboose here. The Spanish Inquisitor could be either town or scum. I may change my mind and vote cow.

This post looks scummy to me, for one. Voting someone on flavor is bad, and saying she "may change her mind" and vote cow because the flavor "could be either town or scum" just seems very wishy-washy and oppertunistic; if the flavor could be either town or scum, and he just claimed an info role, why would that make her want to vote him?

[Yosarian2]

*good posting*

[Yosarian2]

So, 29 hours until deadline. Hope we hear a response from crywolf about her wagon soon, especally since she's currently the leading wagon.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, either crywolf or quints is fine. I'm curious about why you suspect Xyl.

[Yosarian2]

Cryptic posts about Dr Livingstone aren't contribution.

What was cryptic about that post, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

Vote Count:

8 to lynch

Xylthixlm: 2 (Tarhalindur, Kmd4390)
stark: 2 (Xylthixlm, Xylthixlm)

Not Voting: 11 (DrippingGoofball, Yosarian2, hasdgfas, Korejora, camn, stark, scotmany12, sam.samhorn, populartajo, Rogueben, farside22)

Ok....

Apparently, Xyl really is a double voter, but only when he wants to be.

I don't know what he's going on about with all the other stuff, but "double voter sometimes" or "one shot double voter" or whatever is much more likely to be a town ability then a scum ability. It's be pretty cheap for a scum to just suddenly be able out of the blue double vote and steal a win in lynch or lose.

[Yosarian2]

@scot... a double vote, as Yos pointed out, is pretty unlikey to be scum. It would throw off the endgame incredibly.
And if Xyl WERE scum.. he would have hidden his double vote UNTIL endgame, right? Not wasted it on starting a wagon.

Well...to be fair, if Xyl was scum, he's more then smart enough to realize that getting himself "confirmed town" this early would probably be a more then worthwhile way to use whatever ability he has, even if it's one shot or whatever.

That being said, I'm pretty convinced Xyl is town.

[Yosarian2]

qwints: 7 (Kmd4390, Yosarian2, crywolf20084, camn, DrippingGoofball, hasdgfas, Xylthixlm)

Yes, there is scum here.

Vote : Xyl.

Crazy as I am, thank god I was not crazy enough to give you a second vote.

...

Or, perhaps not, if DGB gave him that second vote. Hell, I don't know what's going on anymore.

Whatever. I bailed on the qwints bandwagon in the end when I saw an option because it was starting to feel like one of those day 1 bandwagons I always lead that always seem to be wrong (I can't think of a time in like the last year I've been right on day 1, it's really getting frustrating), and then I end up on ANOTHER wrong bandwagon, for an amazing total of 3 totally wrong bandwagons I pushed yesterday, so I am totally not surprised DGB now suspects me.

Hell, I might just need to stop leading day 1 wagons or something.

[Yosarian2]

Ok. I'll buy that, especally as you never really looked scummy to me yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

How do we know you are not a cult with a kill?

Well, for one, he is eventually going to have to name his mason buddies (he's already named one), and if they start coming up dead and cult...

Secondly, who's ever heard of a cult recruit outing his cult leader and calling him his mason recruiter? As gambits go, I guess it's possible, but even considering that as a gambit just boggle the mind...

Plus, with all the stuff he's claimed, and then unclaimed, and then re-claimed, he's basically gone out of of his way to paint a giant "kill me now scum" target in the center of his forehead, something any cult leader would I imagine be very reluctant to do.

Are you really proposing this as a serious theory, pop?

[Yosarian2]

No, I wanted another point of view. I dont have much experience with cults.
1. Members of the cult come up as cultists when dead?

Yes.

2. The existence of a cult is farfetched?

Not really; there's not that common, but I've been in a few games where a cult showed up.

3. Cult leader dead means cult loses, right? What if Xyl is protecting the real cult leader?

It dosn't mean "cult loses", but it generally means "cult can't recruit anymore and becomes basically a weak scum group with no night actions", so the main goal of a cult is generally to keep the cult leader alive and safe as long as possible no matter what the cost.

As for your second question; how? Who would the real cult leader be? I don't really see Xyl protecting anyone here at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Then I notice that Yosarian is on 3 townie-wagons. I ask myself.. would THE Yosarian2 allow himself to be on 3 townie wagons in one day? For now, no.

Oh, lord. I'm not superhuman, you know.

Want me to show you games where I, as town, ended up lynching or trying to lynch pro-town person after pro-town person? It's happened.

Anyway, you're making it sound like it's scummy I left the qwints wagon to join the crywolf wagon. Why is that?

[Yosarian2]

c) Shouldn't we just lynch Yosarian, then.. if he is unreadable? Better now than have him burn us in endgame, right?

Pfffttt. No one is unreadable.

Anyway, KMD's recent posts seem off to me; especally the way in his last post he stuck to his vote on the (in my opinion) nearly confirmed innocent Xyl, and used pop's weak cult speculatation as an excuse to do so. I don't necesarally think it's scummy for Pop to have wondered about that, but I distrust Kmd's:

How do we know you are not a cult with a kill?

Basically this ^

comment. He's probably my main suspect at the moment.

Speaking of which,

vote:Kmd

[Yosarian2]

I disagree with his opinion on Xyl's recent claim - it doesn't seem risky to me.

Ok. In what scenerio does Xyl's claim seem not risky for a scum to make? Either he's lying about having a multiple member mason group already recruited (in which case, I can't see him getting away with it long), or...what?

I have no idea why he's voting Kmd, as I saw no indication of him suspecting Kmd beforehand.

Well, no, he wasn't really on my suspect list yesterday. However, everyone on my suspect list from yesterday is dead, so if I'm going to scumhunt, I have to find new scummy actions from people I haven't attacked before. And, like I explained, I found that post of his scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry, I meant that he could be scum claiming accurately. If you were assuming he was lying (in your theory), then we're not in disagreement.

Well, that's what I'm saying. If he's scum who's competly lying through his teeth, it'd be an incredibly risky play.

If he's scum partly lying (say, a cult leader who recruited only one person last night, and somehow killed at the same time), then it's still an incredibly risky, because he might be asked to produce another one of those masons. That's also an overpowered cult he can kill and recruit during the same night, so it's not that likely anyway.

And scum but otherwise telling the truth would mean that he's a scum who can recruit an entire mason group with a kill in one night. I really have trouble even picturing how that could work.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, pretty happy with my vote on KMD right now. His attack againt me and pop seems really OMGUS.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: KMD can wait. Come vote stark with the cool people.

Eh. I hate the way he's lurking, but I still don't think the chances of him being scum are much higher then random.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2: Funny, your reaction to stark lurking is totally different from your reaction to Jebus lurking.

lurking is a great scumtell

There's nothing better then a lurkerwagon.

Yup, it is. Totally different. The big difference being that the posts stark has made give me a good vibe, and the both stark wagon we had yesterday and the one we have today both seemed based on horrible reasoning.

Blind consistancy is a scum tell.

[Yosarian2]

The big difference being that the posts stark has made give me a good vibe, and the both stark wagon we had yesterday and the one we have today both seemed based on horrible reasoning.

Please explain in excruciating detail exactly what it was in stark's posts that gave you such a warm feeling.

Meh. I played with him a lot of times in person at starkadium, and everything in this game that you hate about him (being quiet a lot of the time, using long stories and extended metaphores to explain himself, the joking tone, ect) are really pretty standard parts of his playstyle. Meh. He's generally not easy to read, and I realize how bad I'll come out looking here if I turn out to have been wrong about him, but I just don't see any good reason to think he's scum.

[Yosarian2]

One of you and Yos is scum.

Bad DGB.

I mean, KMD is probably scum, but not because of that horry old "any time a townie gets lynched there is one scum on his wagon" logic, which isn't actually reliably true and is even less useful.

[Yosarian2]

Meh. I played with him a lot of times in person at starkadium, and everything in this game that you hate about him (being quiet a lot of the time, using long stories and extended metaphores to explain himself, the joking tone, ect) are really pretty standard parts of his playstyle. Meh. He's generally not easy to read, and I realize how bad I'll come out looking here if I turn out to have been wrong about him, but I just don't see any good reason to think he's scum.

Comments on the claim, please?

No real comments on his claim. There's no real way to verify it or disprove it, unless we lynch someone and see "KMD, scum, miller maker" in their death post. It would be an odd role, certanly; it dosn't really change my opinion of him either way.

[Yosarian2]

What? Do you mean that no scum was on the perfect-for-scum wagon against easy-target-look-at-me-i-m-scummy qwints?

I have no idea. Sometimes when a bunch of pro-town people are wagoning some other pro-town person, the scum just stay the hell out of the way. I've seen townies get lynched with no scum on the wagon before, especally when they're holding a giant "look at me I'm scummy sign". And of course, qwints wasn't actually lynched, so there was actually less then a majority voting him.

Now, it's possible there was scum on the wagon, likely even, but any argument that starts with a bad assumption (like "lets assume there was a scum on that wagon") and then follows it up with a series of other assumptions (like "and let's assume that person A, B, C, D, and E are all town") is a crap argument.

Show us why KMD is prob scum then.

It's mostly his behavior today. His case against Xyl was weak, but he stuck to it despite a really strong claim made by Xyl and backed up by another player. He then followed it up by attacking the two people who were attacking him, for no reason other then OMGUS. And I really hate how he just bought into DGB's bad case there, she just said "Either you or Yos is scum, which is it?" and rather then question her flawed logic or anything, he just accepted her premise, waved his arms and said "It's not me!"

[Yosarian2]

Meh. I played with him a lot of times in person at starkadium, and everything in this game that you hate about him (being quiet a lot of the time, using long stories and extended metaphores to explain himself, the joking tone, ect) are really pretty standard parts of his playstyle. Meh. He's generally not easy to read, and I realize how bad I'll come out looking here if I turn out to have been wrong about him, but I just don't see any good reason to think he's scum.

Comments on the claim, please?

No real comments on his claim. There's no real way to verify it or disprove it, unless we lynch someone and see "KMD, scum, miller maker" in their death post. It would be an odd role, certanly; it dosn't really change my opinion of him either way.

It's not that odd a role. It even has a wiki entry: framer.

Framer's not that odd. Framer immune, though, would be really strange.

[Yosarian2]

Edit by way of post: just to make it clear; "really strange" as in "I've never seen it before." Which dosn't actually make it all that unlikely, considering the game and the mod.

[Yosarian2]

The big difference being that the posts stark has made give me a good vibe, and the both stark wagon we had yesterday and the one we have today both seemed based on horrible reasoning.

Please explain in excruciating detail exactly what it was in stark's posts that gave you such a warm feeling.

Meh. I played with him a lot of times in person at starkadium, and everything in this game that you hate about him (being quiet a lot of the time, using long stories and extended metaphores to explain himself, the joking tone, ect) are really pretty standard parts of his playstyle. Meh. He's generally not easy to read, and I realize how bad I'll come out looking here if I turn out to have been wrong about him, but I just don't see any good reason to think he's scum.

Please place stark's normal playstyle on this diagram:

Why do you have "good players" only in the interlap between "easy to read" and "useful"? Good town players have to be useful, but if someone is useful but very hard to read, that dosn't make him "not a good player."

Anyway, in face to face play, he was a very effective player, although I several times made the mistake of mislynching him while he was town for being quiet.

[Yosarian2]

The masons get a kill every night from here until when they're all dead.

In that case; we don't want to know who the masons are now, but if they start falling dead, then we're going to need to know who they are; because if one of the maons you picked is scum, if he kills off the rest of the masons, then the scum would get an extra free kill, right?

[Yosarian2]

And note that he put Yos, who everybody thinks is townie/unreadable/useful, as SCUMMIEST.

The two people he'd been attacking were me and pop. Because we were trying to lynch him; just pure OMGUS attacks, like I had been saying all day. It's a classic scum tactic, DGB; if a scum is being attacked and can't really defend himself, he will instead try and throw mud on the people attacking him, to counterattack them, in order to muddy the issue and try and make the town doubt the people attacking him.

Of course, you're so bus obsessed, you probably think that the fact that I just caught a scum is somehow a point againt me.

[Yosarian2]

On a side note,

Fos:Camn

I explained again why I thought KMD was scum last page; she totally ignored my case against KMD, didn't comment on it at all, and instead said:

So.. are we killing Stark, or what? I still like the idea.

[Yosarian2]

From his list, we now KNOW that Rogueben and Yosarian are confirmed scum.

That is probably the least logical thing you have said all game, DGB. Congradulations.

[Yosarian2]

I mean, you do realize that your 'there is one scum in each catagory" theory just makes no sense at all, since that would imply a mafia group of 7 people in a game with 18 people and multiple nightkills a night, right?

[Yosarian2]

YES.

So; i vote a townie, it's a point against me. I vote a scum, it's a point against me. I guess your theory is that pro-town people don't vote?

[Yosarian2]

From his list, we now KNOW that Rogueben and Yosarian are confirmed scum.

That is probably the least logical thing you have said all game, DGB. Congradulations.

Your disbelief that Kmd's list has given away TWO team members is palpable.

My disbelief that you actually believe any of the stuff you're saying is pretty "palpable". Especally since, like 2 pages ago, you were insisting (again with bad logic) that "one out of the two of Yos and KMD is scum".

[Yosarian2]

YES.

So; i vote a townie, it's a point against me. I vote a scum, it's a point against me. I guess your theory is that pro-town people don't vote?

Nope. It's your placement on Kmd's list. Your voting record is not relevant. The scumlist distribution theory is cold, merciless, blind science.

So, I attack a scum, he OMGUS attacks me in response, and you think that somehow proves I am scum? I know you know how to play the game, DGB; scum do, in fact, very often OMGUS attack town people who are trying to lynch them, it's actually a pretty good scum tell.

(And yes, his "list" was a pretty obvious attempt to OMGUS attack me and pop, that was the main purpose for the "list". The fact that, in that very post, he went out of his way to try and pre-emtpivly deny that he was OMGUSing pretty much shows that he was OMGUSing, and that he knew that's what he was doing.)

By the way; when you made an argument, and someone demonstrates conclusivly and absolutly that your argument must be completly untrue (like your whole "There is one scum in each catagory" argument here), why is your reaction generally to just completly ignore that and just keep insiting that you're right anyway, even right after it was just proved that you weren't?

[Yosarian2]

Wow, guys. You all come out pretty strong.

Obviously, I

VOTE KMD4390

WHy? flawed gambits + flawed scum-dar = town liability.

Plus, in an off-topic way, I would like to mention that I am revisiting Pink Floyd's early work. I think I like it better when Gilmour started playing Lead.. though I am sure there are some Syd Barrett purists here that will defy me.

This post=scummy.

Note the Chainsaw Defense for a known scum (Chainsaw Defense is a valid tell as long as one of the players involved is confirmed scum). Sure, it's random stage, but that's no excuse.

What the hell?

Camm's post there was (slightly) scummy, which is why I said so. "Chainsaw defense" is when you attack a person making an argument against someone else in order to protect that person; it only makes sense if the person being attacked is actually in some kind of danger. Trying to invoke it during the random voting phase is a little bit crazy.

Vote Zwet

Ideally, I would like to see him dead before he gets to post again, just in case he is a scum dayvig. I am 100% serious about this.

This is a good point. If he's scum dayvig, I don't want to give him a chance to shoot a townie.

DGB is my second suspect right now.

Point 1: Note the fearmongering here (we need to kill zwet NOW! He might be a scum dayvig!).
Point 2: Note the barning of Yos (who chainsaw defended Kmd in random stage) here. I'd put better than even odds on Yos being scum.

Again, this is really silly. Scum don't go "Yup, he's right, I agree with X" with EACH OTHER, that would be dumb. They do it with a townie they're trying to both buddy up with, or a townie they're hoping will take the blame for their argument.

This is especally true with me, honestly, since scum know they can generally get away with "agreeing with yosarian2" without anyone really thinking it's strange or unusual.

[Yosarian2]

Again, this is really silly. Scum don't go "Yup, he's right, I agree with X" with EACH OTHER, that would be dumb.

Seven-layered WIFOM sandwich, yum.

Ah, the classic "wave the WIFOM wand to make the valid argument you don't like go away" trick. Which is ironic, considering that the main tack you are persuing is "let's see if we can guess in which direction the scum was trying to WIFOM us when he played WIFOM games involving making a list of who he thought was scummy, and then take that wild guess and pretend that it is direct, unambiguas proof", and then you accuse me of using WIFOM?

It's frustrating, because you probably are town based on the way you brought attention to KMD earlier today.

[Yosarian2]

God I am thrilled that KMD flipped scum!

Anyone else find it a little wierd she says this now, several posts after KMD died?

[Yosarian2]

I've seen scum go "Yup, he's right, I agree with X" towards more experienced scumbuddies. I'm sure you have, too.

Actually, no, I don't think I have. I've seen scum work together pretty openly in the thread before, but I can't think of any time I've seen one actually say "Yup, I agree with X" as the entire point they were making, using another scum's logic instead of his own. (The tell here isn't just agreeing; it's using someone else's point as your own without adding anything to it). Basically every single time I've seen a scum do that, it was a scum using a good guy's logic, in order to hide behind it, to buddy up, and so the townie takes the blame for it.

[Yosarian2]

Uh, Xyl, you forgot the obvious (and at least part of the reason why scum are known to agree with more experienced buddies). The original defense IS WIFOM, because it's based around things scum "don't do". If you're scum and you know that "scum don't do X because blah blah blah", then you have every incentive to SUBVERT that and do X, because people will think that such behavior makes you town. (I should know - my play as scum is heavily based around doing things that scum "don't do".)

...so, you're theory is that I said "Ok, KMD, during day 1 today, you need to agree with me and follow me for no good reason a lot, so that when you die tommorow, I'll be able to use that argument to defend myself with"?

Are you being serious here, Tar?

In another note, the tone of this defense is horrible. See that "wave the WIFOM wand to make the valid argument you don't like go away" and the eyeroll smilie? Am I the only person seeing an attempt to defend by belittling the attack? Because that's scum behavior right there.

All I have to say is,

"Waving the WIFOM wand to make arguments you don't like go away" is a very common mistake, and it never fails to annoy me. If you really think that scum is more likely to say "I agree with X" when X is a scumbuddy then when X is a town, then make that argument. I highly doubt you could, personally. However, if you can't make that argument, then saying "Oh, that's WIFOM" is just complete garbage.

All I was trying to do there, Tar, was to prove that your attack against me was wrong. Which is was, you know. There is no logical way to argue that KMD was more likely to hide behind my arguments if he was my scumbuddy then if I was town, because that's not how it generally works. "Oh, but scum might act in a way opposite to how scum usually act to throw of meta..." Yeah, they might, but *THAT IS NOT AN ARGUMENT AGAINST ME*, unless the point you're trying to make was that your origional attack against me "only" proves I'm more likely town then scum.

Actually, DGB, would you mind putting off Rogueben for a bit? We both think Yos2 is pretty scummy, and I'm not nearly so sure about Rogueben. Besides, I want more pressure on Yos2, and I think the vig-masons would be rather likely to support a Rogueben vig tonight than a Yos vig.

...

What the hell is going on in this game? Why is like everyone I thought was town suddenly attacking me reasons that make absolutly no sense?

[Yosarian2]

This little argument started with DGB calling Yos2 scum because Kmd buddied up to him, which would normally be a towntell on Yos. DGB is trying to use WIFOM to reverse the towntell into a scumtell, which is silly. It doesn't work that way. But it is giving some interesting reactions from Yos and Tar.

Actually, no; it started because Tar called me scum because KMD buddied up with me, and then when I pointed out that that was a bad argument, DGB said I was "using WIFOM".

[Yosarian2]

Guys. The plan is, we're lynching Rogueben and vigging stark. Get with the program!

Ok, why do you think Stark is likey scum? The way the wagon was going, I really got the idea that scum (*cough* Camm *cough*) was trying to push hard on the Stark wagon in order to protect KMD.

[Yosarian2]

...

What the hell is going on in this game? Why is like everyone I thought was town suddenly attacking me reasons that make absolutly no sense?

DGB I expect to do this sort of thing, but Tar has me confused.

Actually, I was including you in the "people who I thought was town but who are now attacking me for reasons that don't make sense", but looking at it now, I guess you were just nitpicking.

[Yosarian2]

I'm calling scum on Yos because his buddies gave him away in their lists, first and foremost.

Stupid WIFOM argument, that also, even if one accepted the premise, also would require you to assume that Camm is town, when there's absolutly no reason to think she is.

Secondarily, his pushing of day 1 townwagons, his un-necessary apology the next day

No, I didn't "apologize"

, and interactions with Kmd.

You mean, when I figured out KMD was scum, voted for him, began attacking him? Man, you people take all of the fun out of finding a scum and nailing him to the wall.

[Yosarian2]

Guys. The plan is, we're lynching Rogueben and vigging stark. Get with the program!

Ok, why do you think Stark is likey scum? The way the wagon was going, I really got the idea that scum (*cough* Camm *cough*) was trying to push hard on the Stark wagon in order to protect KMD.

I just want stark dead because he's lurking. Is that a problem?

It is if he's town. And if we lynch Camm and she comes up scum, I would be like 98% sure Stark is town.

Also, just realized I hadn't done this yet.

Vote:camm

[Yosarian2]

Yos. I know it's weighing heavily on your conscience. The truth will set you free. What do you think of stark's claim? Just say it. You'll feel so much better.

I already answered this in a ton of detail, DGB; me and Xyl had a whole big discussion about it a few pages ago.

It's a strange claim, and it's not really confirmable, unless we lynch a mafia framer. We have reason to think that there are really strange roles in this game, since Xyl is apparently a "can-recruit-a-group-of-unconfimred-mason-vigs-that-he's-not-a-part-of." Basically, nothing about it really makes him more or less likely to be town.

[Yosarian2]

Do you believe it to be true?

At this point, I think he's more likely town then scum, and while his claim isn't especally strong it's not impossible either, so yes, I think he's probably telling the truth.

[Yosarian2]

How would you rate its usefulness as a fake claim, for the mafia?

Meh. It would be a safe claim to make, since it can't really be disproven. On the other hand, it's not an especally strong one, so it wouldn't really be likely to stop a wagon. Probably slightly more useful then a vanillia townie claim.

[Yosarian2]

How would you rate its usefulness as a fake claim, for the mafia?

Meh. It would be a safe claim to make, since it can't really be disproven. On the other hand, it's not an especally strong one, so it wouldn't really be likely to stop a wagon. Probably slightly more useful then a vanillia townie claim.

What about the hint of the existence of a mafia framer. Does that contribute to shedding doubt on investigations? Is that good for the scum?

Don't tell me the thought hasn't occurred to you, big time.

Huh, that's a good point. No, it hadn't occured to me.

What's more likely? A mafia framer, or a mafia-framer immune player?

Clearly, a mafia framer.

In most games, I would be more suspicious of someone who had such an unusual claim. However, so far this game, we've had Xyl's bizzare role, we've apparently had a double-vote-giving role, and we've had TWO dead "town martyrs". So I'm thinking that trying to outguess the mod this game is probably a bad idea.

[Yosarian2]

There's one scum in this lot:

crywolf20084: 9 (populartajo,

Caboose

, Yosarian2, stark, Tarhalindur, farside22, camn,

DrippingGoofball

,

qwints

)

Like I said earlier, I still don't trust that kind of argument. In any case, pop is pretty obv town at this point, I think.

[Yosarian2]

There's one scum in this lot:

crywolf20084: 9 (populartajo,

Caboose

, Yosarian2, stark, Tarhalindur, farside22, camn,

DrippingGoofball

,

qwints

)

Like I said earlier, I still don't trust that kind of argument.

It worked with KMD.

:eyebrow:

Pop is obvtown, tar is probably town, and I have a good feeling about stark. So, if this method is actually correct in this case, then that would mean that from my point of view either you or farside are probably scum.

[Yosarian2]

That's really stupid. You're outguessing the mod on a whole different level.

Name-Godfather? Really?

Xyl didn't say it was likely, just listed it as a hypothesis.

@Yos - how hard was Kmd trying to squash the stark wagon in order to whip up the competing qwints wagon, on a scale of 1 to 10? Please show your calculations.

Well, that's not quite right; he didn't join the qwints wagon in order to "squish" the stark wagon, since he was on the qwints wagon before there was a stark wagon (only 1 vote on stark at the time, caboose, and he's been voting stark for a long time without anyone else joining him.) It's more like "he was on the qwints wagon, and was unwilling to leave it for the stark wagon".

Looking back at his posts, I do see what you mean, he was making the case qwints was a better lynch then stark for a while; but, meh, Kmd's behavior also makes sense if both qwints and stark are town. (shrug)

[Yosarian2]

As for why I disbelieve the claim... well, at least one of the following must be true. Which is most likely?
* stark is lying about his role as frame-immune townie
* hasdgfas is lying about his role as town name cop
* There is a frame-immune townie, but no mafia framer
* There is a mafia framer, but no town alignment cop
* There is both a town alignment cop and a town name cop

Probably either the first one or the last one. I could see a town alignment cop and a town name cop, especally if there's a mafia framer and if some name are somewhat ambiguas; however, if we do a mass claim at some point and there is no town cop, we can then assume stark is lying scum, I think.

[Yosarian2]

WE NEED MOAR INFORMATIONNNNN! aka Rogueben lynch/claim.
There is something interesting, though. Stark wagon has totally lost its power very quick.

I expect both will die before sunrise. So either is a fine lynch.

I agree. Seeing as (pending the existance of a framer) I am the only 100% confirmable town, I anticipate my impending demise. Therefore, to lynch me now would be a waste.

Stark, care to explain that?

[Yosarian2]

Mod: I should be currently voting camm.

Fixed. -OGML

[Yosarian2]

Even OGML can't believe it.

Yeah, it probably is hard to believe that I've caught two scum in one day.

[Yosarian2]

I figured out KMD was scum, based on his posts today, for reasons unrelated to anything anyone else was saying. I made it clear that I thought he was scum, I voted for him, and I was trying pretty hard to get him lynched instead of Stark when he was dayvigged; if it wasn't for the dayvig, I think I would have had a pretty good chance of getting him lynched today, or if the stark wagon had been too strong, I think I would have at least gotten KMD lynched tommorow. So, yes, I caught a scum, in that I figured out he was scum based on a series of scumtells I laid out in the thread, and I'm pretty happy about it.

I like the way that you edited my post to remove my actual reasoning for why I first thought KMD was scum. This was the full case I was pushing on him, right before he got dayvigged (and, most likely, the one that convinced the dayvig KMD was scum.)

Show us why KMD is prob scum then.

It's mostly his behavior today. His case against Xyl was weak, but he stuck to it despite a really strong claim made by Xyl and backed up by another player. He then followed it up by attacking the two people who were attacking him, for no reason other then OMGUS. And I really hate how he just bought into DGB's bad case there, she just said "Either you or Yos is scum, which is it?" and rather then question her flawed logic or anything, he just accepted her premise, waved his arms and said "It's not me!"

So, yes, I caught your scumbuddy. (It's amsuing how you first deny that I caught him, and then in the very same post accuse me of "bussing" him; isn't that a contradiction?)

Also, Camm, as I noted before, right after I made this post, you posted a long post, totally and completly ignoring the case I made against KMD, and instead just kept pushing for us to lynch Stark. You and Kmd did have a few little tiffs before then, but those look more like weak distancing then anything else.

stark. And you could argue Tar, too, but not near as hard.

Also, samhorn has been bus'ing camn. That's two players out of three that I believe are scum, going after camn when there is nothing at all suspicious about her, and there is no chance of camn being lynched. Do I ever smell distancing.

WOW. Add Yosarian to the list.

Camm's been my main suspect for some time now, pretty much since the moment KMD died, and I thought I'd been making that pretty clear...

[Yosarian2]

@ YOS, Xyl, and poptartajo

Your complete thoughts on the below, please.

God I am thrilled that KMD flipped scum!

Anyway.. I am sorry I have been a little out of it lately.
Finals + preparing for Mexico = spacey camn.

To that end.. As you know, I love attention, and I am ready for you people to bring your cases against me... but I am TOTALLY GOING ON VACATION SOON!

So sharpen your cases... get them ready, and bring them out when I get back.

That said, I don't leave until Monday night... so I have a little time.

Now.. Re: Mutual random voting, TAR....
The history of me and KMD is pretty well-trodden.
--He attacked me without mercy one game. He was wrong. I was right. (tranquility)
--The next game, I was scum.. I nightkilled him immediately. I hold a grudge. (night watch)
My first post that game?

um.....

Vote OBAMA

!!!


@KMD
Your Gambit is flawed.
But I suggest you try it again this game. I would like to see it.

HIS first post? (after mine)

Vote Camn

My Confirmation Gambit reveals that you are scum.

--This game, if I were scum, I would have nightkilled him again.. just for comedy! But I didn't. I am shocked he didn't nightkill me right away. It must be because of my charm.
--So you can see, there is certainly me/kmd early conflict meta... regardless of alignment.

I already pointed out that the first line of that post was scummy.

As for the rest of it; meh. She kidded around with KMD early in the game. That would be a somewhat gutsy move if they're both scum, but I've seen scum do it, especally if it's a situation where that would also do it as town.

[Yosarian2]

Stark: I've been giving you a LOT of rope here, more then I would most people probably, but we really need to hear more from you here. You said you think Camm is scum; why? Who else do you think looks scummy? Who do you think looks pro-town?

[Yosarian2]

I already pointed out that the first line of that post was scummy.

As for the rest of it; meh. She kidded around with KMD early in the game. That would be a somewhat gutsy move if they're both scum, but I've seen scum do it, especally if it's a situation where that would also do it as town.

Do you recall how, early in the game, I called the KMD/camn interaction out as obvbus?

I'd forgotten about it, but it seemed to have made an impression on camn's mind.

As soon as Kmd flips scum, quickly, she brings up that old stuff again, almost as if she's reading the writing on the wall, and awkwardly tries to beat us to the punch. She's usually quite flippant and brazen, but in that post, she appears to have lost that sure footing of hers, and feels a little nervous.

Do you get vibes of that nature? If not, how do the vibes you get differ from mine? Please, no sitting on the fence answers.

Ok. I didn't really think that the origional stuff looked bad, just the normal kind of early game joking around that dosn't mean much.

However, you are right that it was over-defensive of her, and a very fast response; now that I think about it, it looks kind of like she already had a defense ready to go against the "kmd is linked to camm" thing you flung at her earlier, which would imply that she already knew he was going to come up scum.

[Yosarian2]

I strongly distrust this claim.

Fos:Rougeben

[Yosarian2]

Go town.

Also, I bloody hate vigs. Hate hate hate them. *grumble grumble* I can't believe that in the course of day 2 I caught one scum, then FOS'd another one who I figured out was scum based on role flavor, and then in that very night I got bloody vig killed. *grumble grumble*