Medieval Mafia - Game Over

[Thestatusquo]

Vote: DGB

die die suck die suck die DGB sucks die die die die evil die suck scum scum die list list list bow die die suck suck suck

[Thestatusquo]

Why is dgb still alive?

[Thestatusquo]

It's moar hugs. Get it right.

confirm vote: DGB

[Thestatusquo]

TSQ and DGB are distancing like shit.

Fuck.

You caught me.

[Thestatusquo]

I could have sworn that all we had was a confirmation phase. Why is everyone act like we had a night 0?

What are you talking about?

People asked why DGB was still alive. My thought well because there was no night 0 that is why.
I just voted for her because she loves to BW me to death.

Unvote, Vote Farside

[Thestatusquo]

FYI, my current vote is not random.

[Thestatusquo]

FYI, my current vote is not random.

Care to explain?

Not currently, no.

In my opinion the town is well served by knowing that my vote is not within the bounds of the RVI, but is not well served by knowing its purpose yet. All will be revealed in due time, my tiny little friend.

[Thestatusquo]

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTT

[Thestatusquo]

You know, you're supposed to claim scum first, and then confirm a few people as town. If you're going to pull a Quagmire manuever, you might as well go all the way with it.

This is hilarious to me for an undisclosed reason.

Also, stark, I'm voting her.

[Thestatusquo]

There seems to me to be a huge difference between wondering what it's for, and saying "I don't know how TSQ has a non random vote out already" Perhaps you could try to rectify those two statements, because they're not the same.

And also, well, this is really simple.

We have the claimed miller day vig our chosen lynch target, then we lynch him instead. I am a huge proponent of "lynch all millers," and this one comes without a net loss in lynches also.

[Thestatusquo]

Excuse me, I meant to say "lynch all claimed millers." The main reason for this is because if we do not lynch miller as soon as they claim, then it becomes way too good a claim for scum. I am not willing to let the meta shape in such a way where scum can claim being miller d1 and not be lynched for it, and essentially make themselves cop immune for absolutely no reason.

Also, the last 3 times I've seen someone claim miller with no provocation d1 they have been scum, but that's just personal experience.

Here's the plan. We vote until we reach ~2 from lynch. Then when 2 other people have also expressed willingness to vote that person, we all switch to force the claimed miller vig to use his power on the player we suggested. Then we lynch him. Additionally, we could also force him to use his power on himself.

[Thestatusquo]

Yos, you know as well as I do that the logic for the meta policy is not because he's sure to be scum, but rather that we have to make the meta for miller claims unacceptable for scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Do we have any ideas of a prospective candidate (aside from himself) for dayvig?

The day has just started. I suggest that we let the day run its course and that we use the mechanism I outlined, which is essentially a normal day but doesn't give a scum player the opportunity to hammer and deprive us of my cunning plan (tm)

Currently most likely to be scum in my eyes is farside, but that could easily change. Like I said, the day just started.

[Thestatusquo]

Camn, you believe the point of the d1 lynch is to kill scum? Hee Hee. So young and naive. The d1 lynch is very very very rarely useful in that it catches scum, and is far more important as a mode of gaining information.

Also, are we all trying to outguess the mod? DGB camn, you guys should know better. At least, DGB definitely should. You know damn well OGML is a very experienced mod who knows not to fall into standard meta pitfalls.

[Thestatusquo]

TSQ seems to be trying abnormally hard to lynch me on any grounds.

Not really.

On one ground. I don't like letting miller claims into the meta. This is purely and simply a meta policy issue.

Also, as DGB said miller claims are very likely to come from scum, but thats a problem with the meta of NOT lynching claimed millers, which is why I try to correct it.

In addition, I would note that you've claimed nothing else- No flavor, no role name, etc. Why not?

[Thestatusquo]

Oh, I see you did post name.

Anyway,

Tadaa! I am not a miller or a dayvig. Behold my awesomeness. Discuss reactions. You're welcome.

Die.

Vote: zwetschenwasser

[Thestatusquo]

Why should we not?

He claimed miller out of the blue, and then he retracted the claim when it became obvious he was drawing fire for it. He has lied in one way or another, and I am not able to see a pro town motivation for either of the lies.

You'd better have a damn good reason why we shouldn't lynch him if you're going to assert as such.

[Thestatusquo]

I can tell from his tone thus far that it was nothing but provocation.

What does this even mean?

Did you know that, according to Wikipedia, Sir Gawain's strength waxes and wanes with the sun; in the most common form of this motif, his might triples by noon, but fades as the sun sets.

Sir Gawain had three children. OK?

Are you saying that you believe the claim because early in d1 he was a powerful role with a drawback, and now not 2 days later, he's something else? I highly doubt that the mechanic that you're claiming FOR HIM functions in that way.

Fos: DGB

[Thestatusquo]

DGB, reading your posts, I have two possibilities.

1) You don't think he's scum because you believe his "tone." In which case, I simply disagree with you on the tone, and even if thats true, I am much more likely to read actions than "tone."

2) You're soft-claiming mason, in which case just get it out in the open. This guy is going to be lynched today if you don't, and maybe even if you do.

[Thestatusquo]

By the by: He's -3 right now, by my (unofficial) count.

[Thestatusquo]

Why are you voting for me?

I have explained my reasoning for disagreeing with your categorization of the situation very thoroughly.

Theoretically, if you were going to vote someone for the Zwet wagon, it would be yosarian2, who suggested that we should lynch him before he could post again. (which, I do, actually agree with) or caboose, who seems to have jumped on it pretty opportunistically.

Your vote makes no sense to me. THen again, your actions very rarely do. lol.

Also, silly DGB, you don't need to vote for me. I would NK you any time I have a NK. No questions asked.

[Thestatusquo]

DGB!

You're going to have to give us more reason to unvote him than "he could be a mason"

Ok? Ok.

Either his mason partner (I doubt there is such a person) is going to have to claim, or you're going to have to give us Role based info that he's not scum, which it sounds like you don't have.

Every single action he has taken today has been a scum motivated action.

[Thestatusquo]

scotmany is voting for 2 people on that list.

Votecount fixed. -OGML

[Thestatusquo]

DGB: Generally the burden of proof is on you in order to demonstrate why you SHOULD be voting me, rather than on me to show why you shouldn't be.

Zwet: I am voting you because every action you have taken makes no sense from a town perspective and all kinds of sense from a scum perspective. I am not going to ignore behavior that makes sense only from a scum player because you say I "Know your meta"

I'm not even sure what that means, by the way? I've modded one noobie game with you in it, I believe. One we shouldn't even be talking about, because it's not over.

You claim you're trying to provoke reactions, in which case, if you are town (which I doubt) you ought to learn to do it properly. If you make an action that is scummy, the only reactions you're going to get from players is attacking you. The natural reaction from both scum and town players is so attack a player who is doing scummy things. If you are trying to provoke a reaction you need to work out what you need to do in order to maker scum and town players react differently. So even if you're town, I think you're town thats playing without thinking.

[Thestatusquo]

To quote vollkan "Quicklynch is the equivalent of the mafia boogey man."

Its big and scary but it pretty much never actually happens, so I get kind of suspicious of people who trot it up as a means to attack a wagon.

In addition, I would hardly call a wagon where a player has had time to claim, unclaim, and then claim something else before getting lynched a "quicklynch"

[Thestatusquo]

DGB, could you please point me to the "arguments that

am ignoring"

I am pretty sure I have directly addressed every argument you have made towards me.

As far as I've noticed, you're the one who is ignoring arguments. I've made several as for why I think zwet is scum. Here they are in order.

1) Lynch all d1 miller claims. I have explained why I think if you don't do this than the meta becomes too good for scum to claim miller with no consequences, and effectively takes away the towns most powerful weapon.

2) Lying is a lynchable offense, unless there is a demonstrated town motivation for lying. "I was creating reactions lol" is not a reason for lying. At the point where all he is generating from either sides is a logical attack on a scummy action, then there is no way to differentiate town reactions from scum reactions, making the action useless from an informative standpoint. There is, however, the significant scum motivation that he was going to be asked to prove his claim, and was not going to be able to do so.

3) Making illogical arguments. All he's done all game is say things like "TSQ KNOWS MY META VOTE: TSQ" Which isn't logical and doesn't help the town in any way. However, this kind of obfuscation is very useful to the scum if he does get lynched.

And here's a new one that I will make now: He's following the tides of momentum. Every single vote he has made this game has come almost directly after someone else has expressed suspicion about a player and voted for them. His vote on me (which he has now backed away from now that it has become clear that the rest of the town is not following) came almost directly after YOUR vote on me. Now his vote on sam comes almost directly after others have both expressed suspicion of sam and voted sam. It looks to me like he's trying to read the direction of the towns momentum, and then jump on and push. Considering his explanations of votes have been completely non existent (and even contrary to what he's saying now, in the case of me) I have no choice but to extract meaning of my own. This seems to be what he's doing to me.

What are your responses to those arguments? Considering it's you, and I don't expect you to make logical arguments, I am not voting you, but it's a LITTLE but frustrating when you attack me for doing that, when it's clearly not me, but you who is doing it.

So I repeat, since this is a long post: What arguments have I ignored?

[Thestatusquo]

He gave away his true intentions of not gaining information day 1, then closed off to everything else and said he was 100% sure I was scum. I see slip.

You realize in order for his post to be a slip, he would have to have inside information, right?

You realize that his "slip" was calling you scum, right?

You realize that in order to have inside information calling you scum you would have to BE scum, right?

You realize you just CLAIMED scum, right?

I think that pretty much shows who is actually making a slip here.

Confirm vote: Zwet

[Thestatusquo]

List of people who are getting off far too easily right now and will have to talk more today/tomorrow or face my wrath:

4. CounselWolf
5. Simenon
6. qwints
9. stark
14. Jebus
18. farside22

[Thestatusquo]

XYL, If you just jump in a game with 15 pages, I really expect more from you in the way of analysis than just posting Vote: Player with lowest post count, and talking about day one theory. How about comments on some players? It's very convenient. It's especially unsatisfying because you were tied for lowest posts at that time, so you could have just as easily voted for yourself. That makes your method highly suspect if you're town.

FoS: Xyl

Hasdgfas has rolefished like 4-5 times this game (obviously exaggeration) but I would say def. 2.

DGB definitely seemed to me like a scum player who knew that the player acting scummy left or right was not going to come up scum, information that a huge portion of the town was not able to see. I'm not sure this makes her scum, but it surely does seem suspicious, considering there seemed to be very few reasons NOT to be voting Zwet, let alone actively defending him.,,

FoS: DGB

I forget what farside did that earned my ire. I'm going to go back and re-resd and see if it was anything bigger than XYLs entrance. If it isn't, expect me to be voting him. If it is, expect some pressure and votes on her.

[Thestatusquo]

Meant:

FoS: Hasdagfas and Farside

As well, sorry.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not picking on farside: I've mentioned her three times. One was in the context of voting her for her behavior. And the other two were in the context of LISTS of other people, the very antithesis of "picking on someone"

That hardly seems like busing?

I'm wondering what exactly is the basis for calling me scum, by the way? It seemed to be because you decided I was busing zwet, who then turned up to be town. Now you've decided I'm busing farside, when I've listed her in a group of 4 suspects, and voted her non randomly at the end of the RVS. In addition, that assumes that she and I are BOTH scum, which seems relatively an insane statement to make in the middle of day one with NO substantiation.

This is why I hate playing with you, because you get these crazy theories with NO evidence at all behind them, and then you continue to harp on their correctness for no reason why ignoring everything else.

How about instead of just responding to my post by going "He's busing farside lol" you respond to

1) My attack on you. (Oh, guess I must be busing you, huh?)

2) The other two people who I attacked. What do you think of my attacks on hasdagfas and xyl? Am I busing them too? Inquiring minds want to know.

This is why I hate playing with you. Get your head out of your ass and THINK.

[Thestatusquo]

DGB: No it didn't. Neither did the fact that Caboose called him "obvtown" and both things pinged my scumdar, but your full out and blatant defense of him was something emulated by no one else in the game. And in order to narrow down my suspects for a vote, I have to narrow down to just the most eggregious offenders. I can't vote for 6 people.


And how the fuck am I selective? This is the first time I've attacked you all game? In fact, I even made a point of saying how I didn't think the things I was disagreeing with you on earlier makes you scummy.

Why are you picking on me?

YOu've said I'm selective, when it's clearly not true (I attacked 4 people in my LAST POST for fucks sake, when you've attacked 2 all game (me and sam))

You've said I'm picking on farside when I've clearly only mentioned her 3 times and 2 times in the context of lists.

You've said I'm busing zwet which is clearly not true because he flipped town.

Since the previous isn't true, you switched tracks and decided that I was busing farside, even though she has done nothing to warrant being bussed, and such a statement would require us BOTH to be scum.

Is my well so delicious that you have to continually poison it? What the hell have I done to warrant these logicless attacks?

[Thestatusquo]

lol.

The first one is voting her

The second "reference" is just telling the town that my vote is not random, because we're in the random stage. It could easily have been in the same post. How is this damning?

The third is referring directly to my vote because I was ASKED why I thought most likely to be scum at that point. How would you expect me to respond?

Farside hasn't posted anything, so she was included on a list of 6 people who have not posted enough in my eyes. Heh. Real busing here.

Then I mentioned that I was voting her earlier in the midst of an attack of 3 other people. I'm pretty sure I'm not focusing on her.

Also, I just remembered what I was voting her. She basically acted like she had been left out of a night that she thought hadn't happened. Her reaction seemed like a scum player finding out that there was a n1 and they hadn't got their kill in yet. It was definitely good enough for a d1 vote, but not as good as the stuff we've had since then. It's not as big as what XYL did.

Vote: XYL

[Thestatusquo]

I'm wondering what exactly is the basis for calling me scum, by the way? It seemed to be because you decided I was busing zwet, who then turned up to be town.

I also said that scum would would exploit zwet's weakness to the fullest possible extent, in the hope of a vigorous and fast lynch. I stated clearly that my list of suspect was pretty much the same, independently of zwet's alignment.

So...You think I'm scum because I was voting zwet, a player who was actively acting scummy, lied, and claimed miller, and then unclaimed it when he found out he was going to have to prove his claim. Now tell me, how do you expect a pro town TSQ to react. Also, how do you differentiate my reactions from Yosarian2's, who you have called town, considering we took pretty much the exact same actions.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm actually really close to asking to be replaced. I just remembered why I hate playing with DGB.

[Thestatusquo]

It's especially unsatisfying because you were tied for lowest posts at that time, so you could have just as easily voted for yourself. That makes your method highly suspect if you're town.

FoS: Xyl

I didn't feel like voting myself and then having to unvote when I made obviously protown posts.

That's not the point. The point is that your voting method is obviously flawed, due to the fact that it lists you as an equally likely scum candidate as the person you ended up voting for. Considering the fact that we've had about 15 pages of hard content, there has got to be a better method for voting than one which, if you're protown, is proven to be inaccurate to you.

[Thestatusquo]

That's not the point. The point is that your voting method is obviously flawed, due to the fact that it lists you as an equally likely scum candidate as the person you ended up voting for. Considering the fact that we've had about 15 pages of hard content, there has got to be a better method for voting than one which, if you're protown, is proven to be inaccurate to you.

You have unrealistically high expectations for the accuracy of my voting methods. Throwing darts at a dartboard is my baseline.

You don't see why voting for someone with a method that says you're just as likely to be scum as the person you're voting is flawed?

[Thestatusquo]

I'M NOT EVEN VOTING FARSIDE! WHAT THE HELL! HOW AM I BUSING SOMEONE THAT I AM NOT EVEN VOTING!?

DO YOU PEOPLE THINK AT FUCKING ALL BEFORE YOU TALK!?

Holy Jesus.

Secondly, you fucking realize that in order for me to be busing her, you would have to be suspecting her of being scum. That is not the case since you just said "farside hasn't done anything particularly objectionable yet. "

There are three assumptions behind the argument that I am busing farside:
1) Farside is scum
2) I am scum
3) I am actively trying to get farside lynched.

Taking out any one of them takes out the argument. you took out 1 yourself by saying that you don't think farside is scum, I am not voting farside, so that takes out 3, and 2, you have not shown why you think I am scum!

All three assumptions go down in smoke under the most cursory of looks.

Seriously... What the FUCK.

[Thestatusquo]

Here's my thoughts so far:

Likely to be town:
Yosarian2- Is himself. I usually read him pretty well as scum
DGB- This is just who she is as town. She gets a stupid idea in her head and then never lets go of it.
Caboose- I buy his defense of Zwet. If you read his response to the true claim, where he doesn't know if he buys it, and then obviously goes and checks his role PM and notices that he has something in there that helps him believe the claim.

Likely to be scum:
Xyl: I don't buy his coming into the game at 15 pages after we've had a day kill, and saying essentially "Oh, well there goes my top suspect better essentially random vote" I say random because if he's town, then his method is obviously just as likely to make him vote town as scum, because he was at the same number of posts at time of vote.

Hasdgfas: Cow is playing very cautiously. The only contributions he seems to be making to the game are when he comes in and makes a little leading comment which almost might get someone to claim or drop a hint about their role. Strong scum vibes.

Farside: I'm not going to shy away from saying I find her scummy just because people are accusing me of busing. (see last post where I address that)

I found her comment where she said "Wait, we haven't had a night" to be scummy because to me it sounded like the kind of comment that a scum player would make if there was a night and they didn't realize it. It was a good enough reason to get us out of the RVS by making a non random vote. Now when she gets back I will look at how she attacks the current situation to further my read on her.


no read: Everyone else.

I think this is a good amount of reads for day one. At this point I would be comfortable lynching either of my two suspects, and possibly farside depending on how she reacts to the rest of the day that she missed.


Jebus does not need to be lynched, jebus needs to be replaced, and then we can look at the play of the replacement.

[Thestatusquo]

I want to be replaced solely because I hate playing with DGB. It's ok, though. I'm going to soldier through. She's illogical, and always does this.

Every game she's in she gets this pet little idea that almost never actually catches scum, and then she harps on it for the whole game. I've played like 3-4 games with her now and each one this has happened and I've gotten a strong urge to replace out. This is the first time it's been directed at me as far as I remember, though, but the previous times were all WRONG too.

[Thestatusquo]

But I don't think it's 50% likely.

Since you're really good with math, you know this too. You're deliberately distorting the evidence.

First of all, you're assuming jebus's alignment in order to get that 50-50 shot. You can't do that, because you don't know his alignment. Therefore, you only have one sample to look at, yourself, and you will claim to be town. That means from your standpoint there's NO basis to believe that your voting methods can catch scum, in fact, with your sample it means that you would be forced to assume that jebus is town.

Now lets assume for a second that you CAN assume that jebus is scum to come up with an accuracy % for your voting system. You know as well as I do that a 2 person sample is not even close to statistically significant. You have NO idea whether a person is 50x more likely to be scum when lurking or 1000x less likely. You saying that the system is 50-50 is disingenuous, and you know it.

[Thestatusquo]

No, but I question why you would vote before you re-read fully.

[Thestatusquo]

And furthermore, I assume you've reread the thread by now, and yet you've kept your vote even though it is serving no purpose and is based on a faulty premise.

[Thestatusquo]

... I didn't say the system is 50/50.

If I had a way of voting that was equally likely of voting town or scum, I would take it. No questions. 50% scum is better than random voting.

Then what is the purpose of this post?

[Thestatusquo]

That's just piss poor. Just because you got lucky in minvitational 10, and were able to piggy back on the better informed opinions of other players does not mean it's a advisable strategy.

[Thestatusquo]

Camn, I am not defending him. I am attacking the validity of xyls vote on him, and more importantly attacking his motivations.

I have called for jebus to be replaced.

I don't think lurking is a tell one way or the other, as I have seen both town and scum lurk in equal amounts. Therefore rather than get him lynched, I would rather we get him replaced so we can make an informed opinion on him.

That said, I don't think it's scummy to attack a lurker, I just think that xyl could add a whole lot more to the game than he has, and I don't see a pro-town motivation for doing what he has done.

[Thestatusquo]

To be honest, I don't think of mafia in terms of showing other people up. I think of mafia as what I can best do to win. I don't think going after you right now is a strong move, considering the fact that I'm about 80% sure that you're town.

There's also a huge logical flaw in your argument. You're saying that if I were town, I'd want to be lynched just to prove you wrong? I don't think you know me very well if you say that. I'm reasonably sure that getting lynched doesn't suit my interests very well regardless of my alignment. Also, I'm reasonably sure that I have displayed frustration over attacks that I have thought to be illogical as both town and scum. For someone who keeps going on and on about meta, you should learn mine before you try to make an attack about what I would do in a given situation.

[Thestatusquo]

Nah, not really. DGB, no offense, you're a great person out of games... But I hate playing with you. I think we've played with each other in three games now, and after each one I promise myself that I'm not going to ever do it to myself again.

Every time I end up doing it because the rest of the list looks awesome (this game) or the theme looks cool (this game) or I really like the mod (this game) and every time I do it I end up regretting it almost immediately.

This time, I mean it. After this game I am never playing with you ever again. I really would appreciate it if we could stop talking about this. It's not really game related in the slightest, and I don't really like bringing my personal feelings into games, which is why I actually haven't ever night killed you, even when I had the opportunity before.

I just... This is not fun for me right now, playing with you. I don't relish proving you wrong because you don't learn anything from it, and the next game you'll be making the same illogical arguments against some other poor sap. There really is NOTHING that I enjoy about playing with you.

Lets drop this, ok? It's really extra-game.

[Thestatusquo]

I enjoy winning more than petty revenge, and petty revenge very often gets in the way of winning.

[Thestatusquo]

The argument between DGB and TSQ is really silly. I have no opinion on that.

I would really like for Jebus to come back though. Maybe he used his daykill? He should probably tell us in that case.

I would also support a Caboose lynch, if Jebus does not come to fruition. I'm getting bad vibes from him. A confirmed townie > vig.

Caboose is pretty much town in my eyes for the way he reacted to the second claim by zwet. Go look at it. It would take a lot of quick thinking and good acting to fake that.

KMD: I'm not over reacting, I'm frustrated. The attack about busing farside was just so ridiculous that it pissed me off, and then it was echoed by someone else.

[Thestatusquo]

XYL is going nowhere. I can def. get behind this has wagon.

Vote: Hasdgfas

[Thestatusquo]

I love kore.

[Thestatusquo]

I'll get to reading that in a second, but I would just like to point out that the quote names are hilarious.

[Thestatusquo]

Jebus will be replaced. He has been prodded. Why are you looking for a wagon on someone who is not here to defend themselves?

[Thestatusquo]

Bad for the site, perhaps. But bad for the town is debatable in my opinion, especially since this is a large game.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think anyone is "off the hook" per se in a day 1 of a large theme, but really what put me on the hook to begin with? I'd appreciate an explanation.

Re: Lurker hunting.

Day one is not the time for doing it, especially since we only have one or two people who are not posting and will be replaced if we let the mod do his job. There will be plenty of opportunities to read the replacements. Lurking is a null tell in my experience. However, if Jebus comes back and starts posting, he better have a damn good explanation for why he was absent. This seems like a pretty straightforward thing. Is there anything I just said that you disagree with, camn/xyl?

[Thestatusquo]

But thats the point, I don't think the assumption that he is lurking strategically is valid. It's equally likely to me that he is just flaking on this one game. I've seen it happen before. Hell, I've DONE it before.

[Thestatusquo]

Look.. in honesty, I would like all lurkers to die.

IN THIS GAME, I am at the point where I want to get serious.... But a lurker is a FINE place to keep my vote until I decide on who must die. Just accept it.

And you are on the hook because
a) you were playing like scum.
b) Everyone is suspect
c) Replacing out because your feelings are hurt is almost as unacceptable, on a meta-level, as lurking.

But I am done with policy discussion. It is clear that Xylthixlm understands me.

Thats exactly what I was asking though. I will grant you b, and to some extent c, but pretty much what I was asking you to do was explain why you think a. I asked you why you thought I was scummy, and you pretty much responded by saying "well, you were acting scummy."

Extrapolation is your friend.

[Thestatusquo]

My bad. I'll fix that right up.

xyl: lurkers killed my father and raped my mother
xyl: and my brother was eaten by a giant cow

O.O

Confirm vote: hasdgfas

[Thestatusquo]

unvote, vote hascow

I like where this is going...

How about you add something to the game instead of just jumping on to the in vogue wagon? My vote could just as easily be on you as cow.

[Thestatusquo]

Vote: Quints

Thats completely unacceptable.

[Thestatusquo]

FYI, my current vote is not random.

Care to explain?

Not currently, no.

Scummy.

Next:

Yos, you know as well as I do that the logic for the meta policy is not because he's sure to be scum, but rather that we have to make the meta for miller claims unacceptable for scum.

I don't like letting miller claims into the meta. This is purely and simply a meta policy issue.

Clearly you understand Lynching someone for meta- or Policy- reasons.
YET>>>>
Even though you admit this...

It's equally likely to me that he is just flaking on this one game.

YOu somehow don't understand the benefit of policy lynching a lurker..

Jebus does not need to be lynched

.
Scummy.

NEXT, Back to Farside...

In my opinion the town is well served by knowing that my vote is not within the bounds of the RVI, but is not well served by knowing its purpose yet.

All will be revealed in due time, my tiny little friend.

How many times have I heard this promise?
And then, when you finally bless us with your insight.. it's this???

I found her comment where she said "Wait, we haven't had a night" to be scummy because to me it sounded like the kind of comment that a scum player would make if there was a night and they didn't realize it.

THATS what you were being all mysterious about?
Scummy.


NOW.. That said, even though those things were scummy.... you have done a lot that was NOT scummy... which is why you aren't OFF THE HOOK, but you DO deserve to live through the day.

For clarity.. this post should not be construed as a 'case' against TSQ. He asked when he was scummy... this is my response.

1) Generally the first non-random vote that you make is not very strong. I like to slow play it in order to garner more reactions from the player in question, and also the other players in the game. In the early game, I feel you gain a lot more from keeping your cards close to the vest and observing, rather than full out attacking. Do you disagree with this benefit? I would also be interested in hearing what you think the scum motivation would be for attempting to remove the game from the random voting stage.

2) Yes, I understand meta-policy lynching. Here's the delineation, though. Lurking is fixable by mod intervention, whereas miller claims d1 are not. In my opinion it is a much stronger play to get lurkers replaced then it is to lynch them. That option is not available with millers. I am much more concerned with lynching active lurkers. Players who are active but are not contributing anything to the game, because a) I find these players much more likely to be scummy, and b) Because that problem is not fixable by the mod. This definitely seems like more of an ideological difference than a alignment difference. Do you think it scummy that I disagree with you on this?

[Thestatusquo]

It highly depends on the soft claim itself.

[Thestatusquo]

tbh, I don't even know what soft claim she/you are talking about. Please enlighten me.

[Thestatusquo]

OOPs.. I mean totally agree . . with Xylthixlm.

I asked you some questions in my last post. Please answer them.

[Thestatusquo]

caboose answered in 612.

But if you mean THREE posts ago... then:

1) I don't disagree with these high Ideals.
But I don't think you accomplished them.
Your "secret" reasons turned out to be incredibly obvious. Withholding them from us really just withheld info about YOU.. not about farside.
If you were trying to get 'reactions' I would say you failed.. thus your stated strategy was flawed.... if that was your true intention.
Maybe you as scum wanted to tap into some kind of inherent Farside-scummieness and build a wagon. Maybe you are both scum and you are distancing. Maybe a lot of things... most of them scummy.

2) It isn't the difference that is scummy. It is your apparent lack of understanding of why WE think lurkers should die. I am sure you DO understand it. So why wern't you debating it from a policy perspective? Instead you called Xyl "likely scum" for voting a lurker. Scummy.

1) Your disagreement there is not with the idea plan itself, but rather with the end result. Let me ask you this, If I attempt to stop someone from murdering someone and fail, does that mean I wasn't attempting to stop their murder. Even if you think it didnt work this time, that doesn't invalidate the method. That being said, you have no idea what kind of information and reads I have garnered from it. The point was to create a scenario and watch how people reacted to it. I do that fairly often with the first weak genuinely scummy thing I see.

2) I DO see your frustration with lurkers, and I DO see why you would want to lynch them. I do not agree. If you'll go back and look, my attack on XYL was not actually for attacking a lurker. There were two components to the attack. First I attacked the faulty logic of a voting system that would name him as just as likely to be scum as the person he was voting at the time. I often look at what people deem scum tells, and then use those as a standard to measure those people, because players very often use their own play as scum as a standard for what they see as scummy in other people. So, I thought it was completely ridiculous to base a vote off of logic that was equally likely to make him scum. Second, I attacked him for jumping in the game and adding very little to it. It's very easy for someone to jump in the game and say "Well, X has the least posts: Vote: X" It doesn't advance the game state, and it's a cop out that allows the replacer to avoid playing and taking definitive stands on the issues that have been raised so far.

If you'll notice, I have not attacked YOUR attacking of the lurker because it does not have the two characteristics that I described about xyl. You are not using flawed logic, and you are not using the lurker push to avoid the rest of the game.

[Thestatusquo]

Well... Camn says she's biased on me and I think I feel the same with her. I see her massively buddying up to Yos with the "legend" comment, but one of my points against her in Tranquility was buddying up to Rishi early in the game. Remember that she was town... I don't even know what tells to look for with her because I was so wrong on her in the other game. =/

Qwints is only reinforcing my thoughts on him by jumping on the latest popular wagon with Cow. And guess what? He did it in the same way he did with Zwet and Jebus when those wagons were popular.

Sam looks good with the lurker opinions, but when it comes to actual specific players, he's no better than Qwints. If Qwints weren't so scummy, I'd probably vote Sam. The lurker opinions look more like trying to look active without giving actual thoughts. And when he does drop an opinion, he can't be bothered to back it.

Camn, I have to ask. You call TSQ scummy. He asks why. You answer. Why do you need the disclaimer, "For clarity.. this post should not be construed as a 'case' against TSQ" at the end. Giving reasons why a player is scummy IS a case. Why are you seperating yourself from calling it that?

Mod

, the vote count shows my vote on Qwints and the other 2 votes as seperate wagons.

I don't see why Caboose needs to be uestioned about the "softclaim"?

Hey camn. Wanna use Zwet to see if my Gambit (actually an analysis strategy more than a Gambit when I use it like this) works better on a confirmed town wagon? hasdgfas, Thestatusquo, Yosarian2, scotmany12, sam.samhorn, Kmd4390. Those were the Zwet voters. (Actually, at quick glance, Qwints, Caboose, and Cow all were voting Zwet at one point too.) I bet we can find an experienced scum or 2 or maybe even 3 on this wagon. Qwints, Yos, TSQ would be my top choices. Cow and Scot are meh as well. So yeah, I'm doing this again based on the simple fact that Zwet was town. Stef being scum ruined the hell out of it last time. I'm gonna piss off Camn here and say this: My analysis strategy reinforces my scum read on Qwints. It also reinforces any suspicion I may get on any of these players later.

I actually don't like this post quite a bit. It does a whole lot of nothing in a whole lotta words. You talked about a lot of things, but everything you say is wishy washy and mitigated by something else. "Sam looks good BUT" "TSQ Yos and qwintz would be my best bets BUT"

[Thestatusquo]

So yeah, I'm doing this again based on the simple fact that Zwet was town. Stef being scum ruined the hell out of it last time.

You mention right in the attack that the only other time you tried this you were completely wrong.

[Thestatusquo]

Hey DGB, are we ever going to agree on anything? :-p

[Thestatusquo]

I dunno, I keep waiting for you to accuse me of busing him.

[Thestatusquo]

I dunno, I keep waiting for you to accuse me of busing him.

We know you didn't bus him, since zwet was town.

However. Zwet gave you, and some others, every reason to build a vigorous case against him with total impunity. What gave you away is how totally impervious you were to any argument that might have attenuated zwet's perceived scumminess.

I was responding to your comment about us both voting qwintz.

Anyway, back to the game. Lets get some more votes on qwintz or cow. I'd gladly push either of them to a claim right now.

[Thestatusquo]

Very happy with farsides re-entry to the game, FYI.


I assume now that DGB will accuse me of buddying or some such.

[Thestatusquo]

...

A little one liner knocked you off a case which you were calling obvscum for like 6 pages?

Something there doesn't fit right with me.

[Thestatusquo]

Very happy with farsides re-entry to the game, FYI.

I assume now that DGB will accuse me of buddying or some such.

Well not exactly buddying, but since you've been caught bussing, you're now doing a 180, hitting the brakes, and scraping farside off the asphalt with a velvet shovel.

Considering you keep calling farside townie, it really makes no sense to accuse me of busing her.

[Thestatusquo]

I've never played with farside before...How would I know she has a usual scummy self...

[Thestatusquo]

Watch out, yos... She'll decide you're my scumbuddy too.

[Thestatusquo]

So I just went back and checked, so far this game DGB has accused me of being scum with:

Zwet: Town
Jebus
farside
Sam

Looking back, there's never ever any reasoning given for why she thinks I'm scum. The logic, initially, seems to be that I am attacking zwet, who she at the time thought was town, then she decides that zwet was scum, and then the attack became that I was busing him, then she decided that I also "had it in" for farside, which was also of course busing, and by extension I must be scum with jebus and sam.

Does that make a bit of sense to anyone at all?

[Thestatusquo]

There is also this post, coming immediately after TSQ's initial farside vote:

FYI,

my current vote is not random

.

Emphasis mine.

OH MY FUCKING GOD, THAT IS BECAUSE MY VOTE WAS NOT RANDOM AND I WAS TRYING TO CREATE DISCUSSION THAT WOULD DRAW US OUT OF THE RANDOM VOTING STAGE WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU!? SERIOUSLY?! ARE YOU FUCKING MENTALLY CHALLENGED!?

I MADE A NON-RANDOM VOTE AND THEN I DREW ATTENTION TO THAT FACT TO FUCKING CREATE DISCUSSION! WHAT THE

FUCK

IS SCUMMY ABOUT THAT!?

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[Thestatusquo]

Watch out, yos... She'll decide you're my scumbuddy too.

I see a pattern here.

First, tell everyone how illogical I am.

Second, show that I'm utterly and completely predictable.

Third, realize that you forgot how difficult it is to be both illogical and predictable at once. The only way is to be predictably illogical. But then you couldn't predict where the particulars of my ill logic would take me, haha.

One can be predictably illogical...

This is another argument that is not logical at all. Illogical does not mean erratic. It is very very very possible to be consistently illogical. You have consistently accused me of being scum with people with absolutely no provocation this game. Predictable bad logic.

[Thestatusquo]

You've made the argument many times but you've never EXPLAINED WHY.

This is basically what you said: If he was town, I would be on the wagon to get the easy lynch, but if he was scum I would be busing him.

These two things don't make sense together. If the lynch was so obvious that I as a scum player would be willing to bus, why don't you think me as a pro town player would be all over it?

More importantly, please explain to me what you would expect a pro town tsq to do in that situation? I'm honestly really confused.

[Thestatusquo]

Fine. Fuck it.

Go to hell, DGB.

OGML: Please replace me

I can't play with you anymore.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, there is. I can not play like this. My anger is clouding my play, and I am going to be a detriment to the town if I keep letting her prod me like that. It will continue happening, and I will not enjoy this game, and will eventually start avoiding it, and start lurking, and thats not good for anyone.

[Thestatusquo]

And I'm taking that intangible out of the game. My emotions can't be a part of the game if I leave. I play mafia to have fun. This is not fun. Playing with DGB is never fun.

Last post.