Past Ages Mafia - Game Over

[BSG]

From the looks of the original game, both players die when one of them is lynched. It seems that the pairs share the votes of them together. To explain, see this example:

Vote Lawrencelot

There's only place for one Dutch player in this game.

So if the rules of today are the same rules of the original game, then Julien/Lawrence have now two votes. One of mine and one of Budja.


But we'll see if this is the case when we see the first VC.

[BSG]

I so hate meta defences...This seems like a 'too scummy to be most of the time scum' defence.
And can you please explain what happened to 'don't lynch Empking to safe me' to 'vote empking'?

Regarding post 62
For me it depends. I'm not going to state right now what I'd do, as my actions can be different when it comes down to it. But I'm in favor of judging both heads. I don't think it's fair to punish a very helping player who seems pro-town for the other head's behaviour.

As for claiming, both heads should if needed. If the second head is a PR, he shouldn't stay quiet with his claim when his other head is getting near a lynch. But I only want the second head to claim, when that body is at L-1. If there gets to be a switch of bandwagon, then the second head's role is still unknown if the body didn't get at L-1, but we would still know the claim of the first head.

[BSG]

I don't agree with a no-lynch.
It only give us less information to use. Besides, we have more chance of hitting scum, so I'd like to use it.
Short said, I agree with post 125. Add post 139 as well.

*get better soon Brandi*

*Happy birthday other head *

I can tell you what I didn't like about it if you want me to Ortolan. It has all to do with this quote:

Obviously he has a no less than normal probability of being scum this game, but I am just asking you be wary because he does have a scummy meta and if he is lynched this entails me being lynched also, which is bad for my action be it town or mafia (so as I said this comes from self-interest)

You are defending him with meta (which is something I don't like), while admitting that he could be scum. And I don't see how it could be bad that you get lynched if Empking is scum. It's also interesting to note that you say 'self-interest', while speaking about that you could be town or mafia. That's not what I would call 'self-interest' as you should do it for the best of the town or mafia.

[BSG]

@Ortolan
The thing is that you admitted that Empking could be scum, yet you still defended him. So I'd like to know, if Empking would continue to play like this when you two are seperated, would you or would you not go for his lynch and why?

As for URoE, the only thing that bothers me about what was pointed out by RR is that he seems to like the idea of a no-lynch. But at the same time, he will only go for it when multiple players agree with it.
The reason why this bothers me, is that if you like your idea and you think that it's the best for the town, you should try to convince the others that this is the right way to go. And this gives me the idea that he's trying to look for an exit if the idea of a no-lynch was denied and if he would get attacked.

However, there's one more player that has caught my attention. And this is Braeden, due to his last two posts. So I'd like to know from him which points brought up by KMD against RR he agreed with (and why), and what about post 151 changed his mind about those points.


@Santos
Yes?

[BSG]

@Santos
Perhaps we should discuss who we suspect, so tell your suspicions for once.


@KMD
Why that avatar???


@Ortolan
That doesn't actually answer my question you quoted. A simple 'yes' or 'no' with an included reason why is enough. If you're wondering which question, here it is:

So I'd like to know, if Empking would continue to play like this when you two are seperated, would you or would you not go for his lynch and why?

And it may bore you talking about this, it's not a good reason to stop talking about it. So you can expect me to bring it back some times.


@Brandi

As for URoE, the only thing that bothers me about what was pointed out by RR is that he seems to like the idea of a no-lynch. But at the same time, he will only go for it when multiple players agree with it.
The reason why this bothers me, is that if you like your idea and you think that it's the best for the town, you should try to convince the others that this is the right way to go. And this gives me the idea that he's trying to look for an exit if the idea of a no-lynch was denied and if he would get attacked.

Santos actually supported it with a vote. It's not about suggesting the plan, it's how both of Santos and URoE responded to it. Both supported it, but only Santos voted for a no-lynch.
This is my opinion what you were wondering about in post 240.

May I also ask you (Brandi) why you are voting Tajo, while he has no votes (

Mod, a Votecount would be appreciated

) instead of Santos who has a vote? Wouldn't two votes be better than one vote on different pairs? (This question is also aimed at Empking)

Also, you might want to know that SG and Tajo are a couple in real life, Brandi.

Mod, what's the status of Animorpherv? Could you also prod Narsis and Forbiddanlight?

[BSG]

@Brandi
Like I already said in the part of URoE, if you think it's the right thing to do for us, then you should support it. URoE suggested something which to him is good for town to do. Yet he will only support it when other players support it. Santos on the other hand supports it, even though nobody is making any sign of doing the same.
Why I find this bothersome of URoE is already explained by me in my previous post.

Well, I pointed it because of this:

never mind. totally failed sexual innuendo.

Hey dude you need to start respecting people.
You think you are like very clever hiding behind your screen, huh, huh?
I think not...

You gave some comments about this. However, Tajo responded to this as Santos was making some kind of remak regarding SG. I thought that it had to do something with SG and Tajo being a couple, instead of Tajo distancing from Santos. That's why I pointed it out.

And they have played definitly one game before together. I didn't get the impression that they were going easy on each other in that game.

[BSG]

@Santos
Perhaps we should discuss who we suspect, so tell your suspicions for once.

Don't ignore your other head!

Also, our vote counts for one. So if you vote us, and afterwards I'll vote us as well, we'll still have only one vote from us. Empking actually has a point against you.


@Brandi
I see your point against SG and Tajo. And yes, now that I've looked back, you're right. They have only been lovey dovey to each other... Hopefully, this will change later on.


@IronTurkey
Why is Santos less scummy than Slicey according to you?

Oh and before anyone asks: I'm not going to vote Slicey because: A) he can change the vote at any time anyway and B) though playing to win means finding scum, I'd very much like to be in this game longer than one day.

It seems that you don't want Slicey to be lynched only to be longer in the game, so who would you like to lynch instead?

[BSG]

@Braeden
That question was mine. However, I was asking as you never said which points you agreed with against RR made by KMD. RR answers, and you reply towards KMD that you agree with his vote. But when KMD asks you if that was still the case when looking at RR answers, you agree that it was the right thing to unvote.
-So, which points against RR did you agree with and why?
-Did you look at RR's answers before you posted that you agreed with KMD's vote? If yes, why did you still agree with KMD's points? If not, why didn't you look at it?
-What about RR's answers made you decide that KMD's vote wasn't well placed and why?


@Santos

@Santos
Perhaps we should discuss who we suspect, so tell your suspicions for once.

Mod

Posting in all games: Hopefully short V/LA due to being down with a nasty fever. Trying to play Mafia when I can't fully concentrate is a bad thing. I'm sure poptaj will do us proud while I'm gone.

MLock posted this the 4th. So why was he replaced?

[BSG]

@IronTurkey
I didn't ask for your opinion of Santos. I wanted to hear why Santos is less scummy than Slicey to you. In your last post, you said that Santos has contributed little, but he hasn't done anything scummy that warrants a vote. So what has Slicey done that normally would warrant a vote?

Also:

It seems that you don't want Slicey to be lynched only to be longer in the game, so who would you like to lynch instead?

Could you answer this IronTurkey?


@Narsis
You've got nothing to add at all?


@Santos
Are you serious about having suspicion on yourself? Also, when I looked back, you indeed have said that you see Empking as suspicious, but you haven't said why. Could you do so?
While doing that, you may also state the reasons why Braeden is more scummy.


@Pops
I have already shown which posts of Braeden gave me a bad feeling. And those were his posts regarding KMD's points against RR and RR's response to them.
But I think that your point about Braeden's posts has to do with Tar, or am I wrong?


@Brandi
It has actually happened once before that a player wanted someone else to be replaced. Actually twice. But that player who was not wished for was Natirasha...
However, I don't agree with approaches like these. I also would like Santos to be a little more serious, but I try to do that with a different approach. So I wonder why URoE actually suggested this.

[BSG]

Tar

[BSG]

???
No (although it would be nice). I was wondering if your quotes of Braeden had to do something with one of his classic scumtells.

[BSG]

IIOA (information instead of analysing)

[BSG]

IIOA: Talking more about set-up than analysing posts or giving thoughts about players.
This is mostly my reason why I'm asking Braeden those questions.

Mod

Can we please have a vote count?

And could the following players say at least something that shows they are still here:
FL, Julien, Ortolan and K7.
I would like to hear from the following players who they suspect and why:
Budja, Julien, K7, Narsis, Braeden and Slicey.


@KMD
I'd like you to put your main points against Slicey (Ani/IT) in your next post. Something like:
-Reason 1
-This
-And not to forget that.
You make lots of points in that post, so it would be nice to just see the main points.


@Lawrence and KMD
How come you missed that Ani was replaced by IT?


I'm

Thirding

Brandi's request, Narsis. Work on it (see post 336)!


@IT
Could you please state your reasons for seeing Slicey as scummy once more? From your second post, I have to fish for each argument, so it would be nice to just hear them from you. Perhaps you can do it in the example I have given to KMD in this post?


@KMD
If you and Braeden didn't share one body, would you have voted him or not?
I'm asking this because of this:

Well Braeden does seem pretty scummy. I'll admit that. But that's my second head, so I'm against the lynch.

@Santos
I prefer a lynch. If you vote for No Lynch, I'll immediatly unvote. However, if you see something scummy regarding a player, point it out and I'll happily discuss it with you. I'll get into this later.


@Tajo
Is there any reason why you don't want to explain your reason for not liking Braeden's posts you quoted?

Mod

Could K7 be prodded?

[BSG]

After looking through KMD's points, I'd like to

Vote Slicey

Mainly due to Slicey calling two players scummy, without backing it up. But also due to the 'waiting on my other head' comment. IT also did the same. He has now change this stance. And as he's now pointing fingers towards Santos, with the same reason he's guilty of. This is a huge scum tell in my book.
Also, I really don't like the tone of post 367 where he says that it's not a huge loss if he gets lynched. You can call this gut.


As for Tajo's answer, I can see a reason. So I find it a weak accusation from Braeden against Tajo. The reason I was asking was because there were some players asking why he quoted those. But so far, they were ignored. I was wondering if there was any reason behind it. I'd appreciate it if you could post this reason when you discuss those quotes, Tajo.

Also, Braeden, you've answered most now. The only question I still have is what in RR's defence made you re-think your stance against him?

[BSG]

Then who did? (sorry for that. You can take that point out. The others still stand though) I really thought someone said that as well.

[BSG]

UROE, state your suspicions in your next post.

[BSG]

Do you guys sometimes have that little voice in your head, saying that something happened in the past which would be funny to quote right now? Of course, it could be the penguin, but anyway, that voice is talking to me right now. See here, said quote:

It's getting boring talking about it (my meta defence of Empking) now, really.

And look who's bringing it up again. Don't blame me that I get the feeling now that this is just to give us an impression that you've read this game, while not doing so.
As for the reason why this is funny, I haven't said a thing about it lately, yet you FoS me for it. After a long time, you decide to FoS me, for something you tried to wave away. And then I would like to know why that is. I can even find a nice quote of yours in that post which can be applied here as well.

Anyway, your meta argument that you've meta defenced Empking before is bogus. See here, your quote from Alpha:

About Empking: yes, he looks scummy. I have previously played with him in a game where we were scumbuddies, and he also looked scummy in that. I'm in I believe two ongoing games with him (this and another, there might be one more I can't think of also)

and think he looks scummy in both of them

. I do also recall someone specifically saying he has a scummy meta. So currently I'm probably neutral on him.

As someone who has played with Empking before, I'm aware of his meta (long time ago Emp.) But that shouldn't be a reason to not lynch him. Or even worse, defend him. As for the neutral part of this quote, it didn't look like that in the other ongoing game (not allowed to quote from that one).
As for your blatant misrep of:

This is not saying "Empking looks town", how the fuck would I have known whether he was town or not on page fucking two?

Read what I've said again. Because I didn't say this at all.
I'll also let Narsis have a go at you before I respond to that part.


Also, Julien, DIE!
If you're still wondering why, it has something to do with pink!


EDIT: What's AtE? O.o

[BSG]

Why? Would you like to see her again

Of course I know . School and such. I don't know when she gets back, but I think soon as we're having a holiday in less than a week. You know, you could have just PM'ed her as she gets online once in a while (she's having her turn soon at modding and she's in one mish mash game if I'm correct).
But I think that you'll be one of the first who will know when she gets back

[BSG]

And look who's bringing it up again. Don't blame me that I get the feeling now that this is just to give us an impression that you've read this game, while not doing so.

Wait

What?

Where does this even come from? Highly ironically me bringing this up resulted directly from re-reading the entire game. You spent a lot of time attacking me for a null-tell rather than doing any good scum-hunting today, don't think it will go unnoticed. If not today then later.

You wanted to stop this talk as it 'bored' you. Yet, you're the one who brings it up after a re-read. Not only that, it's what you mostly discuss. You talk about Slicey, a post from Narsis and you mention that you see Empking as Town, and that you have a neutral read on IT. The first two is due to something you don't see as a scumtell, while I do (and apparently Narsis and Slicey as well) and the other two you don't state a reason for. And no, the reason why you see Empking is town isn't a reason as he voted Santos. I'm included in that one.
As for not scumhunting, look at your own posts first. It has most of the time been you defending against the attacks of the meta defence. You haven't even stated why you FoSed me after all that time. This just comes across as OMGUS.

Anyway, your meta argument that you've meta defenced Empking before is bogus. See here, your quote from Alpha:

About Empking: yes, he looks scummy. I have previously played with him in a game where we were scumbuddies, and he also looked scummy in that. I'm in I believe two ongoing games with him (this and another, there might be one more I can't think of also)

and think he looks scummy in both of them

. I do also recall someone specifically saying he has a scummy meta. So currently I'm probably neutral on him.

Amazing. You actually go to the effort of looking this up, but then are oblivious to the fact that it very, very, very strongly supports everything I've said this game, and in absolutely no way contradicts it. Yes, the argument I made is that "Without the benefit of meta, Empking looks objectively scummy. He always looks like this though, so he is a neutral read." The fact he looked scummy as he always does

doesn't

make him town, but it makes him not really more likely to be scum than the prior, setup probability." So please tell me any way in which what you quoted contradicts what I said this game, or were you hoping no-one was actually paying attention and further crap-logic is what you needed to take the wagon to a lynch?

Of course, I'll look it up. You used it as a defence. A defence should always be checked as it could easily be bogus. You actually did find him scummy in those games. But because he's scummy in all his games, he would be neutral. You're just giving him a free pass each game, which is unacceptable, but that is a difference in our opinion and shouldn't be discussed here.
But anyway, in both other games, you brought it up after Empking got some heat. Yet, you brought it here up at the start of this game. Only because you two are sharing one body. However, Slicey could have used a lurker defence of Ani. IT could have used a defence of Slicey as he was lynched in two games day 1. I could make up a defence of Santos. Yet none of us did, while these would be valid as well. You even admitted that Empking could still be scum, yet you defended just to save yourself. And then this defence of Alpha becomes bogus. Because you have two different goals. Alpha was to let other players know that Empking has been scummy, but is in all games. In this game, it was to save yourself.

As for the neutral part of this quote, it didn't look like that in the other ongoing game (not allowed to quote from that one).

Strictly speaking, you are allowed to neither quote nor reference it. You slip in that "it didn't look like that in the other ongoing game", knowing the point will stick because I can't quote it to potentially prove you wrong. Nice play, scum.

You're wrong. You're not allowed to discuss any ongoing game outside said game. And we're not discussing it right now. But I think that the players should know how bad your defence actually is. As I'm not allowed to quote it, I'll let them look at it themselves. And you're not the one who is allowed to give comments about this.

A whole bunch of people, not all of them opportunistic scum probably (;)), criticise me for this, probably rightly initially. Then when the issue should be over and done with I get several people later in the day suggesting a vote on me because of it (Slicey, others IIRC, possibly Narsis and yourself implicitly). Obviously I still need to defend myself, if I'm going to be lynched for such a crappy reason. Then BSG the hero comes in and accuses me of dwelling on something "everyone had moved on from", except they were going to vote and potentially lynch me for it.

Yes, it's very scummy to have a life besides mafia. Hello, Penguin to human, I talked about this on the same day you came with your defence. So your accusation in this quote makes no sense.

Pretty sure the

only

argument you have against me relies on continually misquoting me then basically implying I'm not allowed to defend

myself

. So let's not get too sanctimonious about our "wording".

Braeden becomes scummy-KMD doesn't defend.
Slicey becomes scummy-IT doesn't defend.
Santos becomes scummy-BSG doesn't defend.
Empking isn't seen as scummy-Ortolan does defend.
Conclusion: something's fishy.

[BSG]

Unofficial VC (as it's less than 2 hours till deadline...)
Ort/Emp (2): Slicey/IT, Tajo/K7
IT/Slicey (4): KMD/Braeden, BSG/Santos, UROE/ Budja, Ort/Emp
BSG/Santos (1): LL/Julien
Budja/UROE (1): SG/RR

Not voting (2): Raider/Brandi, FL/Narsis

mod

-How many votes are needed on deadline?
-(official) Votecount please.
-Massprod.

[BSG]

@Ortolan

Look. No. I was/am getting voted solely for doing that, it may bore me but if I'm going to get lynched for it I have no choice but to discuss it. Stop using insanely bad arguments please. Also I've done more than my fair share of scumhunting this game. Just the biggest scumtells being dropped are still the crap arguments being used against me.

When you said this, you only had one vote. Even with those attacking you regarding the Empking meta, you would have only been at a max of L-2. So I don't see why you were getting afraid.
And if your last sentence is true to you, then I don't see why you weren't attacking me when I brought it up for the first time. You just wanted to stop talking about the biggest scumtells? That doesn't make sense.

Yes, you're right. You can't defend against it. However, I'm not allowed to use it as an attack as it could lead to discussing Prisoner's Dillemma. The only thing I'm doing is to show that the defence doesn't make sense. But I'm surprised that this is your defence against the example. I'd have expected something else actually.

You're still using the same strawman I asked you to stop using in my previous post. I never, ever acknowledged I "defended" Empking- I said be wary of interpreting what would be scumtells for other people into his play. This is not defending him, and I characterised it as "cautioning" in my previous post. You can call my latter assessment of Empking a "defence" of him, but not this. This is getting into seriously mentally-deficient, teeth-grinding territory.

I can't blame you as you don't look at it using a penguin brain, however you said that we should be wary of what a scumtell is in his case. So what normally would be scummy when a player does it, should be treated as neutral in Empking's case. And that is defending. And you knew that you were defending:

He has a scummy (very scummy) meta, please read his recent games and see how likely he is to be lynched versus how many times he actually is scum (no offense, Empking). Yes, I am trying to save my own skin here

[BSG]

BSG is a female, fyi.

QFT!!! I'm glad that not every player made this mistake as you can see the pinky sign underneath my avatar.

Don't tell the scum who you think the power roles are.

This. It's only anti-town behaviour to do so.

[BSG]

Less than 1 hour (+/- 45 min.)

[BSG]

Vote Braeden

[BSG]

First of all, during all of these games you should look at the past games. Especially previous day. It appears that Kalei doesn't use each rule from the past games. One of the rules of Silent mafia, is to turn sigs off as you can talk through them. Kalei didn't use this rule, so we could have talked previous day using our sigs. So please be aware of this next time.

Anyway, I'll be honest. I'm not sure yet if I will listen to the majority today (hate me for this). There are two players who are just sitting wrong with me. And both of them are by most seen as pro-town.
So state your cases and I'll go through them, but I can't promise that I'll kill the one who majority wants me to.

K7, do you want a short or long answer to your question of post 625?

Also, see post 646. This is a very important post!

And I'm also interested in Orolan's question in the above post. I voted Tajo.