Pokemon Battles 2 - Attack on Giratina [GAME OVER]

[Blue.]

VOTE: Pink Ball

[Blue.]

generally if people can't find you as town it says more about your play than theirs though.

also VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

vibes are off.

scummy VOTE: Squirtle

Hey, a townie!

[Blue.]

I dont like this shift into actually playing mafia it's so weird bruh

then don't. enjoy the shit posting with me fellow citizen

[Blue.]

i should read game mechanics or have participated in the pregame thing that was sent out.

How do i initiate a pokemon battle and start to get my gym badges

You gotta wait until Twilight to have a POKEMON battle!

[Blue.]

If scum only ever did things they "have to" do, their win rate would be much lower.

What I meant is that scum!Squirtle is never getting town!sheep limmed with that half assed push, and they aren't looking townie while doing that either
And Klick is defending a player that I wouldn't take too much effort to defend in the first place (no offense sheep but this playerlist has a lot of other players that I would consider as a priority to get townread from)

When I say that they don't have to, is that it shouldn't be prioritized because they wouldn't get anything out of it as scum.
So the most logical conclusion is that town!Squirtle legitimately thought that sheep's entrance was scummy, and town!Klick couldn't hold the urge of get their nose in

Scum can very easily force posts early in the game to appear 'productive', because being serious early looks townie. Not saying that's what happened here, but you're taking a very surface level view of their posting.

[Blue.]

*throws a great ball at firebringer*

[Blue.]

VOTE: patchwork

[Blue.]

Scum can very easily force posts early in the game to appear 'productive', because being serious early looks townie. Not saying that's what happened here, but you're taking a very surface level view of their posting.

What's your stance then?
Is Klick manufacturing their stance to look productive, or are they just posting a "well actually" kind of post that town!Klick usually posts?
Is Squirtle trying to look productive by pushing sheep, or is his scumread on sheep legit?

Not particularly, no. I thought sheep's posts were about as null as you can get and so anyone seeing things there was imagining things that weren't there. Squirtle's push there was forced, which isn't necessarily scummy, although it can be. I don't think it was though, but that's based on other stuff he's posted. I'd be more concerned if he was still trying to push sheep.

I don't have issues with the conclusions you made, I just don't trust your reasoning.

[Blue.]

I just don't trust your reasoning

You don't trust it in what sense, that it's bad reasoning, or that you think I'm scum for the reasoning I'm giving?

I think you could be saying that as scum, yeah.

[Blue.]

I just don't trust your reasoning

You don't trust it in what sense, that it's bad reasoning, or that you think I'm scum for the reasoning I'm giving?

I think you could be saying that as scum, yeah.

Then what's your stance on Klick and Squirtle

They're fine.

[Blue.]

They're fine

Worst kind of answer you could have given

Good for you, I guess.

[Blue.]

This is a very serious forum topic for aggressive mind games, there is no place for tomfoolery here.

[Blue.]

This is a very serious forum topic for aggressive mind games, there is no place for tomfoolery here.

weak as hell post tbh

You must be real fun at parties.

[Blue.]

If y'all want to dial up the aggro to 100 at all times this game is going to suck real bad.

[Blue.]

If y'all want to dial up the aggro to 100 at all times this game is going to suck real bad.

They're fine

Worst kind of answer you could have given

Good for you, I guess.

That's not an aggressive post.

[Blue.]

VOTE: kittytacky

Nah, he's probably town.

[Blue.]

the best part about ranger read lists is knowing what pages lots of stuff happened on and then seeing almost no changes at all when they get to those pages.

It's like asking chatGPT to slightly change a list every page with no rhyme or reason at all

It’s completely political positioning. There’s no merit to some of those reasonings except to put people in certain boxes.

I don't follow.

[Blue.]

VOTE: kittytacky

Nah, he's probably town.

why

Comfortable entrance, gave a few townreads but not really trying to blow the thread away with his opinions, he's relaxed and taking it easy. Gut tells me that's a townie.

[Blue.]

VOTE: kittytacky

Nah, he's probably town.

why

Comfortable entrance, gave a few townreads but not really trying to blow the thread away with his opinions, he's relaxed and taking it easy. Gut tells me that's a townie.

I dont like this read

would u feel different if I had a scumgame with kitty where their general posting style was similar? Come in for a bit, catch up + post a sequence of thoughts, exit. that feels like what ur read is essentially commenting on

No, but I like that you're making that read, it's a good look for you. My read on Kitty is a gut read, it could be wrong, but I'm not going to sweat it right now.

[Blue.]

oh and also invisibility towny

Ranger does this every game iirc, it's NAI.

defending a player without legit understanding/processing the push against them = bad

You mean the game I subbed into where you and Kitty were scum?

oh ya oops lmaooo

but I dont want to talk about that game a lot as an important evidence point, I just thought it immediately disproves blue's described defense

Why are you afraid of people looking at that game?

Do you think sheep is being scummy with the push?

[Blue.]

oh and also invisibility towny

Ranger does this every game iirc, it's NAI.

defending a player without legit understanding/processing the push against them = bad

You mean the game I subbed into where you and Kitty were scum?

oh ya oops lmaooo

but I dont want to talk about that game a lot as an important evidence point, I just thought it immediately disproves blue's described defense

Why are you afraid of people looking at that game?

Do you think sheep is being scummy with the push?

Leaning towards yes, especially since they basically said 'don't look at this game where I also was scum'

What, you think his strategy is to go "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"? That's really funny.

[Blue.]

Walk this through for me logically for a moment:

You believe he was trying to get KittyTacked limmed as scum, by pointing to a game where they were scum together, and then telling people not to read it, presumably so they wouldn't catch him?

[Blue.]

Walk this through for me logically for a moment:

You believe he was trying to get KittyTacked limmed as scum, by pointing to a game where they were scum together, and then telling people not to read it, presumably so they wouldn't catch him?

Also where they left out they were scum with Kitty until I mentioned it?

And then said they didn't want to use that game as an 'important evidence point' after that?

And no, I do not feel that Kitty is scum. I think they were looking for a mislim.....

I thought the language here was pretty clear, actually:

I dont like this read

would u feel different if

I had a scumgame with kitty

where their general posting style was similar? Come in for a bit, catch up + post a sequence of thoughts, exit. that feels like what ur read is essentially commenting on

I picked up the meaning right away, even went to go look at the game to skim.

I don't think it's really plausible that he'd try to hide that so clumsily or that he'd openly try to prevent people from meta reading. I

assume

he doesn't want to get the thread bogged down in meta discussion. I think if, for whatever reason, he was was looking for a mislim but didn't want people to look at that game, he could have...just not mentioned it.

You do you though, I guess.

[Blue.]

this is just silly VOTE: Drew

But is it scummy?

[Blue.]

If I point to a game where I was scum, I would say as much.

Sheep didn't say that, they pointed to a game where they were scum with Kitty to say how they could be scum.

Then when I pointed it out that Sheep was also scum, Sheep that said game shouldn't be talked about as far a lot of important evidence.

Even though they are using it as a point to push Kitty.

Blue, walk me through the logic here.

If I point to a game where I was scum, I would say as much.

Sheep didn't say that, they pointed to a game where they were scum with Kitty to say how they could be scum.

Then when I pointed it out that Sheep was also scum, Sheep that said game shouldn't be talked about as far a lot of important evidence.

Even though they are using it as a point to push Kitty.

Blue, walk me through the logic here.

Sounds like they were saying it's a minor component of their argument against Kitty.

-Blue

What is this?

I want an answer to this.

That's her making a joke about answering a question that was directed at me.

As for the actual question, "I had a scumgame with kitty" was explicit in its meaning to me, and the rest has been answered by other people.

-Chandra Nalaar

[Blue.]

I was actually gonna call drew villagery like very short time ago lol

but theyre effectively lying at this rate to support their push lmao. like I dont get how that perception of what ive been saying is possible. idrk

Yeah, I dunno, it's a wack line of argumentation to be sure. But I kind of want to move on because it seems like he's going to keep doubling down and I can't tell if it's a legitimate tunnel or someone flinging poop at the wall.

[Blue.]

Maybe I'm a sucker for tone but I think Drew is town.

[Blue.]

am i invisible this game or

Your posts aren't very memorable.

[Blue.]

i like my vote on patch bc i haven't seen them town tell yet

Has there been a scumtell though?

Their posts are pretty terrible. Granted, they can absolutely be town that's posting terribly but for now I'm okay with my vote being there.

[Blue.]

Caught up, here's where I'm at

sheepsaysmeep
SquirtleSquad
KittyTacky
Flavor Leaf

Chandra Nalaar
Metens
NorwegianboyEE
Ranger
Pink Ball

jjh927
Firebringer
SirCakez
WhemeStar
Blue.
Doctor Drew
Titus
Invisibility
Patchwork
Black
Not_Mafia
Magical Girl

Top two tiers are ordered but null isn't

Why is Metens a townlean?

[Blue.]

It’s something simple really.
If dude is gonna go on vla for 5 days what stops him from just coasting until then?

I don't really think that's good reasoning. (I don't have a read on FL either way)

[Blue.]

VOTE: Cakez

I was thinking scum might enter the thread a certain way and so far this fits

How so?

[Blue.]

VOTE: Cakez

I was thinking scum might enter the thread a certain way and so far this fits

How so?

He drops in and says he might contribute later. Then he drops a seemingly harmless question asking if people are enjoying fighting the training dummy

I think scum want to get as much info out of town as they possibly can. Talking about our training dummy fights is a great way to do that

I think he fell behind regardless of alignment, that doesn't strike me as a tell either way.

What on earth do you think talking about training dummy fights accomplishes for scum? It was the most vague, inoffensive question imaginable, do you actually believe scum are going to try to fish out details of people's roles that way? Like his master plan is to get people to go "yeah I've got +2 ATK so it was easy for me even with -1 DEF"?

[Blue.]

VOTE: Black

[Blue.]

I don't believe you really believe the words you're writing, I think you're looking for an easy target and went after the first thing that wandered in front of you. Your case is the most contrived thing in the 29 pages so far, so I'm voting you.

[Blue.]

If we could get some more votes on WhemeStar, that would be great. I would also accept patchwork. Get in on the ground floor of this scum catching opportunity! #girlboss

I think it's a fair criticism.
You're coming into the game very hard on a slot that merely posted they don't have time to read the 5 pages. If this is how you typically play regardless of alignment then i won't take too much issue. But still i find it independently to be more likely coming from scum that wants to take a grand standing early but does it by pushing an lurker slot.

I can see this. Neither have anything memorable. Could this be a prefer town but backup scum partner situation?

What an arbitrary and fake thought. This can be scum.

I don't really think so.

[Blue.]

Also it doesn't really matter what players set their dummy stats as. Conversations about the training dummy only benefit scum

This grandstanding is very, very fake.

[Blue.]

I can see this. Neither have anything memorable. Could this be a prefer town but backup scum partner situation?

What an arbitrary and fake thought. This can be scum.

I don't really think so.

If you're going to defend someone at the first sign of pressure, at least provide a reason. Otherwise, kindly let me do my thing.

I'm just expressing a read, friendo. I get why you take issue with that post but I think she's likely to be town right now, based on most of her catchup posts.

[Blue.]

this is the second time blue has jumped in like this, I thought the interaction when I was pressuring drew was very similar where he doubled down on the insulting comment drew made to me.

Notably drew has still done fuck all this game.

No, I specifically repeated that comment because you were being an overly aggro buzzkill and could stand to dial it down a little - playing like you have been is going to be a drain on you and everyone else because others aren't likely to match the high level of intensity you seem to be expecting, which will lead to a lot of frustration.

Lighten up, squirt.

[Blue.]

Blue is giving me major informed vibes jumping in defending Cakez and now Titus

I don't have a read on Cakez, I just think your case is bad faith. I haven't even expressed a reason for townreading Titius, what gives you the confidence that read is informed?

[Blue.]

Even if you have a good reason though, I'm going to ask you to keep it in your pants for a minute in the future. I'm trying to apply pressure and you running too quickly to someone's defense makes it harder for me to read their response.

Feel free to disregard me entirely then!

[Blue.]

But ok I think patchwork is town, I think firebringer is town very strongly, I think drew is scum. I think ranger and blue are the top of the null scum pile.

Other than that lots of null pings.

You have 5 reads in a 30 page game?

[Blue.]

this is the second time blue has jumped in like this, I thought the interaction when I was pressuring drew was very similar where he doubled down on the insulting comment drew made to me.

Notably drew has still done fuck all this game.

No, I specifically repeated that comment because you were being an overly aggro buzzkill and could stand to dial it down a little - playing like you have been is going to be a drain on you and everyone else because others aren't likely to match the high level of intensity you seem to be expecting, which will lead to a lot of frustration.

Lighten up, squirt.

This is also personally insulting to me. I am once again asking you to stop making comments that are personally insulting to me.

I did nothing outside the bounds of normal mafia play. I asked for a player to play the game when they weren't doing so, and your defense of their continued refusal to play the game is noted. Quite frankly the claim that this:

I responded to his saying nope to my firebringer town read with what I thought was pretty good reasoning.

Even if he didn't agree with that, I was attempting to start a dialogue, I would expect a town player to be interested in using that hook to try to sort me, or at least to have some sort of interaction which was readable.

He responded by ignoring it completely and interaction with the fluff post directly above it to continue fluff posting. All the things he's said seem either contrived or actively unhelpful.

is "overly aggro" is quite frankly absurd so if you could kindly take your insults elsewhere and play the fucking game instead that would be dope.

I'm sorry, if you're going to take comments like that as personally insulting, I feel like you are going to treat any interaction that isn't fawning positivity as a personal insult, and that - I don't know how to play the game around that. Disagreement is going to be a natural part of the game and you're using something effectively outside the game to shut down any dialogue. I made a mild criticism and you responded by calling me insulting and swearing at me, which is an incredibly unwarranted level of hostility.

I genuinely do not know how to play the game around someone who is reacting this way.

[Blue.]

But ok I think patchwork is town, I think firebringer is town very strongly, I think drew is scum. I think ranger and blue are the top of the null scum pile.

Other than that lots of null pings.

You have 5 reads in a 30 page game?

Holy deliberate misrep batman.

No, that was a genuine question - sheep asked you what your main reads were and I thought you gave a surprisingly small amount in response. I personally think there's a lot more alignment indicative content, so this was surprising to me, and I asked about it. I don't think it's impossible for a townie to not have reads, but I wanted clarity on your perspective.

You're...really on edge and treat every comment like it's a personal attack when it's not. I...don't think you're scum, probably. I'm not attacking you. Please stop reacting with such extreme hostility.

[Blue.]

But ok I think patchwork is town, I think firebringer is town very strongly, I think drew is scum. I think ranger and blue are the top of the null scum pile.

Other than that lots of null pings.

You have 5 reads in a 30 page game?

Holy deliberate misrep batman.

No, that was a genuine question - sheep asked you what your main reads were and I thought you gave a surprisingly small amount in response. I personally think there's a lot more alignment indicative content, so this was surprising to me, and I asked about it. I don't think it's impossible for a townie to not have reads, but I wanted clarity on your perspective.

You're...really on edge and treat every comment like it's a personal attack when it's not. I...don't think you're scum, probably. I'm not attacking you. Please stop reacting with such extreme hostility.

I have reads and I have reads. I gave the ones I think are better than random. Lot of null pings I thought pretty clearly implied that a lot of players have pinged me in both directions and it felt like if you were engaging with my post in good faith you would have realized that instead of zeroing directly in on the people I felt strongly enough about to name.

I will once again state: I am not reacting with hostility except when you personally insult me. This is not me reacting with hostility any more than you going "you only have 5 reads in a 30 page game is?" my reaction here is completely game related. I do not think its a fair interpretation of my post to say "you only have 5 reads" and it is extremely common shorthand to boil down "there's a bunch of stuff in either direction" as null. That does not mean that I have no read there, but rather that the read is muddy. This is mafia 101.

I am once again asking you to stop trying to characterize my emotional mindstate.

This is again really unnecessarily hostile, dude. I asked a question, I explained what I meant, I am not even trying to push you as scum, so calling me asking a question a "misrep" is annoying, because it's not really true - I asked specifically with the intention of getting you to clarify your stance.

I could quibble over the fact that having a bunch of muddy/null reads is functionally equivalent to having no read, but I think that's a semantic argument rather than an alignment indicative one, so I'm not going to pursue that.

I'm...just going to stop talking to you and hope you calm down in the future and realize this is a really unreasonable way to play the game. I don't think anything productive is going to come out of me continuing to interact with you. Demanding me to only post a certain way at you when I've been trying to be polite after getting warned by the mod makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

[Blue.]

i feel like i warned you all in sign ups and some of yall still treat this like its any other mafia game.

U should adjust ur expectations accordingly.

I dunno, I'm trying to de-escalate though obviously I'm not the right one to do the job, Wheme is probably right I should step away. You go ahead and drive, boss.

[Blue.]

I’ll deescalate this saying that Blue antagonizing literally everyone who has tried to play the game makes Blue probably town which is sad because he’s not cooperating.

Fight between alts is a fun thing to see

I'm literally not trying to be antagonistic, though I am town.

[Blue.]

Votes that I accept as good reasoning, in no particular order:
Whemestar
Sheep
Dr Drew
Blue*
Invisibility

Boring votes with less than good reasoning:
patchwork
Sir Cakez
Magical Girl
Jjh
Titus

*if you think that Blue is scum you’re wrong but it’s valid

Not really interested in the first three names, not sure any are likely to be hits, although I don't explicitly townread wheme. What do you think about the way Drew is pushing sheep? And talk to me about Invisibility?

[Blue.]

Blue is giving me major informed vibes jumping in defending Cakez and now Titus

I suspected this too when I first saw their stuff on your Cakez read like the reaction felt a lot like scum attacking wrong town. Seeing Blue yell at everyone makes me think that's not the case

I'm not yelling at people, why do I give off that impression? Serious question. Is it the avatar? I had assumed my tone would be pretty clear but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've been pretty relaxed for the most part.

[Blue.]

Personally I would not discuss or speculate on the mason claim further!

[Blue.]

I don't want to kill the following people today:

jjh927
Firebringer
KittyTacky
Blue.
Skygazer
Doctor Drew
Titus
Chandra Nalaar
Sheepsaysmeep
Klick
NorwegianboyEE

[Blue.]

There were (and certainly are in this game) moves that started a battle with other players.

In the previous game, town definitely had at least one but I can't remember if it was a starting move or one gained from evolving.

I don't think scum started with one but if I recall correctly they had potential to get them from leveling up

There is AT LEAST one role designed that way for this game.

It was in the role that I didn't choose

. So I'm assuming there might be others

Excuse me?

[Blue.]

i agree with klick in 617. squirtle is looking pretty scummy yall.

That's not what he meant. It was in reference to the reads list being quoted.

[Blue.]

It's going to be disappointing if Cakez ends up actually being scum here.

[Blue.]

i agree with klick in 617. squirtle is looking pretty scummy yall.

That's not what he meant. It was in reference to the reads list being quoted.

get off of my side immediately :<

for context to blue. this was intended with a jovial, lighthearted tone.

I got it, no worries. I just didn't have a witty response prepared.

[Blue.]

Blue I have a legit question:

Are you trying to role play as Blue?

Nah, not really. I thought about doing it for fun but I felt like it'd come off annoying to people - Blue ingame is kind of cocky, he's always taunting the player character.

[Blue.]

VOTE: jjh

[Blue.]

Wouldn't it being a huge game make it easier to get a SR? I find it harder to read people in micros tbh.

Not really, in my opinion- there's a lot more slots to evaluate which leads to more uncertainty, a lot of space where players aren't making their alignments clear. I certainly don't have a lot of significant scumreads as of right now. Not a lot has jumped out to me, which might mean scum are inactive, or they're simply able to blend well because we haven't really had any wagons of significance. I don't think not having a scumread is surprising but it's kind of dependent on the player. I think Norwegian has shown some indicators that he's trying to sort the game, regardless.

[Blue.]

Wouldn't it being a huge game make it easier to get a SR? I find it harder to read people in micros tbh.

Not really, in my opinion- there's a lot more slots to evaluate which leads to more uncertainty, a lot of space where players aren't making their alignments clear. I certainly don't have a lot of significant scumreads as of right now. Not a lot has jumped out to me, which might mean scum are inactive, or they're simply able to blend well because we haven't really had any wagons of significance. I don't think not having a scumread is surprising but it's kind of dependent on the player. I think Norwegian has shown some indicators that he's trying to sort the game, regardless.

But ok I think patchwork is town, I think firebringer is town very strongly, I think drew is scum. I think ranger and blue are the top of the null scum pile.

Other than that lots of null pings.

You have 5 reads in a 30 page game?

Holy deliberate misrep batman.

No, that was a genuine question - sheep asked you what your main reads were and I thought you gave a surprisingly small amount in response. I personally think there's a lot more alignment indicative content, so this was surprising to me, and I asked about it. I don't think it's impossible for a townie to not have reads, but I wanted clarity on your perspective.

:thonk:

I don't think those statements are contradictory.

[Blue.]

Maybe think about it some more, then.

[Blue.]

VOTE: Cakez

I was thinking scum might enter the thread a certain way and so far this fits

How so?

Blue is asking a lot of questions while contributing nothing.

You should probably wait to see where I actually go with my posts before jumping to conclusions, because that one definitely had a purpose.

[Blue.]

Blue is giving me major informed vibes jumping in defending Cakez and now Titus

Agreed. People have every right to be suspect of me.

Maybe I'm just better than them.

[Blue.]

VOTE: Cakez

I was thinking scum might enter the thread a certain way and so far this fits

How so?

Blue is asking a lot of questions while contributing nothing.

You should probably wait to see where I actually go with my posts before jumping to conclusions, because that one definitely had a purpose.

Let's go back to that. You still never explained why you think that scum wouldn't fish like Cakez did. How do you think scum would fish?

I think accusations of rolefishing outnumber actual instances of rolefishing by something like 100 to 1. It's not actually something scum do very often at all. It is something scum use to push townies because they take a thing that looks surface-level bad and apply a cookie cutter tell to it. Even asking me "How do you think scum would fish?" feels like a leading question.


If he made that post as scum (and I'm not ruling out the possibility), it almost certainly wasn't done with that level of intentionality. He doesn't strike me as the type of player to put that much thought into what he's posting.

[Blue.]

I like blue even though they hate me

I don't hate you, I did feel like we mindmelded a bit when you were posting before, I just don't fully trust you, although I'm willing to work with you anyway to see what happens.

[Blue.]

It's not actually something scum do very often at all. It is something scum use to push townies because they take a thing that looks surface-level bad and apply a cookie cutter tell to it

So you agree it looks bad on the surface?

Even asking me "How do you think scum would fish?" feels like a leading question.

Your defense of Cakez felt off. I'm trying to understand your thought process behind it. Idk what you mean by a leading question

Yeah, but thinking on the surface level doesn't tend to catch scum, and it's where scum tend to operate, because it's all black and white (no pun intended), simplistic terms, not assessing deeper motivation.

[Blue.]

I'm actually surprised you're admitting the training dummy stuff looks bad on the surface. I didn't get that vibe at all from these two posts:

VOTE: Cakez

I was thinking scum might enter the thread a certain way and so far this fits

How so?

He drops in and says he might contribute later. Then he drops a seemingly harmless question asking if people are enjoying fighting the training dummy

I think scum want to get as much info out of town as they possibly can. Talking about our training dummy fights is a great way to do that

I think he fell behind regardless of alignment, that doesn't strike me as a tell either way.

What on earth do you think talking about training dummy fights accomplishes for scum? It was the most vague, inoffensive question imaginable, do you actually believe scum are going to try to fish out details of people's roles that way? Like his master plan is to get people to go "yeah I've got +2 ATK so it was easy for me even with -1 DEF"?

I don't believe you really believe the words you're writing, I think you're looking for an easy target and went after the first thing that wandered in front of you. Your case is the most contrived thing in the 29 pages so far, so I'm voting you.

As far as "not assessing deeper motivation" ...what? That's literally what I'm doing by reading Cakez comment as an innocent fishing attempt

So what's your point?

[Blue.]

Whatever FL I don't really care, I assumed way before this game started that I would be pushed today and I'm fine with it, I feel flattered

Don't worry about it, no one has articulated a case on you beyond "vibes". I started liking you when you made that vote on jjh, anyway.

[Blue.]

Whatever FL I don't really care, I assumed way before this game started that I would be pushed today and I'm fine with it, I feel flattered

Don't worry about it, no one has articulated a case on you beyond "vibes". I started liking you when you made that vote on jjh, anyway.

Why did you like that vote specifically?

The timing of it, felt like we wee on the same wavelength and scum doesn't think to make a vote in that spot.

[Blue.]

The timing of it, felt like we wee on the same wavelength and scum doesn't think to make a vote in that spot.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last point

I found it odd that PB voted jjh after townreading him. Does that not bother you at all?

Why would it? Reads change.

[Blue.]

(I still think jjh's slot is town Black don't worry)

Oh. Guess I was wrong about what you were thinking, then.

Uhh that's pretty scummy, ngl. I don't think limming a townread to avoid having them replaced is townie behavior

You really think scum does that?

[Blue.]

The timing of it, felt like we wee on the same wavelength and scum doesn't think to make a vote in that spot.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last point

I found it odd that PB voted jjh after townreading him. Does that not bother you at all?

Why would it? Reads change.

His read didn't change. He wants to lim a townread.

Now does it bother you?

Not really, no. I jumped to conclusions in my initial thought, but I don't think his explanation was scummy. It was dlippant and unserious and generally scum want to avoid being seen as unserious. I was just a little too hopeful someone was on the same page as me.

Really feels like you're asking a lot of leading questions.

[Blue.]

Can you talk to me about your SR on jjh?

No, not really.

[Blue.]

VOTE: skygazer

[Blue.]

and im starting to townread squirtle more so I'll just let him have whatever wagon he wants

Why are you townreading him more?

[Blue.]

Can you talk to me about your SR on jjh?

No, not really.

Why not?

It's a vibe thing, I was okay with giving him a pass for day 1, then I kind of felt him going "duh have you ignored the context" in response to sheep was weak.

I don't want to kill the following people today:

jjh927

Firebringer
KittyTacky
Blue.

Skygazer

Doctor Drew
Titus
Chandra Nalaar
Sheepsaysmeep
Klick
NorwegianboyEE

VOTE: jjh

VOTE: skygazer

What's your point?

[Blue.]

why the read shifts blue?

I don't like the way you voted drew, for one thing. No commentary on him up until now, and then a "sure i guess" as a wagon rapidly forms? Seems suspect to me.

With a big rush of votes I'm going to point and guess at which one might be scum motivated. I stand by my belief that drew's probably town and don't find the case against him especially compelling.

[Blue.]

Do you have a reason to townread Drew from their content so far?

His case on sheep was ridiculous but I felt his conviction behind it was legitimate in terms of how he was arguing for it. It felt like he had a legitimate belief from within him and didn't care if other people were going to crap on him for it. 562 felt entitled in a townie way. The way he's shown paranoia of people seems genuine. He doesn't seem to have found a new scumread after (apparently) cooling on sheep, but it hasn't been that long realtime, not enough for me to find it scummy.

[Blue.]

It's a vibe thing, I was okay with giving him a pass for day 1, then I kind of felt him going "duh have you ignored the context" in response to sheep was weak.

So then you waited until after he was being replaced to vote for him? Yeah, I'm not buying this. I don't believe you really had this drastic flip on jjh. Him going from one of your top townreads to you wanting to lim him off "vibes" doesn't feel genuine to me

You think I waited until a slot was getting replaced to try to get it killed when clearly there was no appetite for doing so?

[Blue.]

Do you have a reason to townread Drew from their content so far?

I would also like Blue to elaborate on this because Drew is a firm null for me. I'd like to see some actual pressure on someone because the game hasn't had any big wagons so far

pedit: ok cool

That's a fine explanation I guess. I'm okay with the idea of some consolidation to add some real pressure, I just don't think the wagon is likely to be a hit. But you do you, I guess.

[Blue.]

Black, be honest: how much of you starting to suspect me again is related to Titus coming into the gamethread pushing me?

[Blue.]

You think I waited until a slot was getting replaced to try to get it killed when clearly there was no appetite for doing so?

The replacement thing barely has anything to do with this tbh. I'm more concerned about your drastic flip on jjh. I'm not sure if it's scum motivated though

I do agree with you on Drew. I think he's town, and this wagon is concerning

So if Drew's town, who would you say is likely to be scum on the wagon?

[Blue.]

Black, be honest: how much of you starting to suspect me again is related to Titus coming into the gamethread pushing me?

Wdym "again"? I'm not sure what to make of your slot. I think you're interpreting me questioning you as suspecting you, and I guess in a way I do, but you're pretty null for me. I may disagree with some of your actions but I'm having a hard time figuring out the motivation behind them

Generally speaking when you accuse someone of saying things that are not genuine in a social deduction game, you are suggesting they are a member of the informed minority faction.

[Blue.]

Can you talk to me about your SR on jjh?

No, not really.

Why not?

It's a vibe thing, I was okay with giving him a pass for day 1

What did he do to earn a pass?

Absolutely nothing, but I felt like he'd be easier to sort given more time.

[Blue.]

You think I waited until a slot was getting replaced to try to get it killed when clearly there was no appetite for doing so?

The replacement thing barely has anything to do with this tbh. I'm more concerned about your drastic flip on jjh. I'm not sure if it's scum motivated though

I do agree with you on Drew. I think he's town, and this wagon is concerning

And i’d like for you to not kill the momentum on this wagon.
The game needs more deaths so there are less slots to worry about.

I think we learn more if there's a counterwagon of some sort.

[Blue.]

If you were trying your best you would be voting someone else!

did you miss my question bruvenor?

No, I was at a restaurant with my parents! I’ll have more time during the night, today’s my daughter’s 1st birthday so I’m only phone posting

hey congrats

[Blue.]

nevermind im not liking what im seeing VOTE: blue

Go on...

[Blue.]

nevermind im not liking what im seeing VOTE: blue

Go on...

it's mostly a vibevote- i'm not familiar with you nor your play
while i initially just sort of ehh and dropped a policy tr on your slot the claim that black's case is "in bad faith" is strange because it makes sense to me. that and you just claim that without even explaining why. vibes are off and gut tells me to drop a vote

Is not elaborating on a read scummy?

[Blue.]

nevermind im not liking what im seeing VOTE: blue

Go on...

it's mostly a vibevote- i'm not familiar with you nor your play
while i initially just sort of ehh and dropped a policy tr on your slot the claim that black's case is "in bad faith" is strange because it makes sense to me. that and you just claim that without even explaining why. vibes are off and gut tells me to drop a vote

Is not elaborating on a read scummy?

if ur trying to turn my own point onto me, i think the reason as to why i voted can be pretty easily implied from my earlier posts ???

No, I'm not trying to pull an uno reverse card on you - I'm trying to understand what you actually find scummy about my vote. I thought my expressed reasoning was clear, and at the time no one asked me about it, so I felt no need to explain myself further.

I'm trying to understand why you believe that action has scum motivation to it.

[Blue.]

UNVOTE: skygazer

I think their response to me voting them was good and their posting over the last few pages is fine.

VOTE: Invisibility

[Blue.]

I requested a VC (not a troll one). I think it will help solidify my theory.

Here's an unofficial one for you. (I did it by hand so I can't guarantee it's 100% accurate though)

Doctor Drew (5): NorwegianboyEE, Invisibility, SquirtleSquad, Sheepsaysmeep, Skygazer
SirCakez (4): jjh927, Black, Doctor Drew, KittyTacky
Pink Ball (3): Klick, Firebringer, WhemeStar
Blue. (2): Titus, Patchwork
Chandra Nalaar (1): Flavor Leaf
Black (1): Mittens
Sheepsaysmeep (1): SirCakez
Patchwork (1): Ranger
Not_Mafia (1): Not_Mafia
WhemeStar (1): Chandra Nalaar
Invisibility (1): Blue.

NOT VOTING:
Magical Girl, Pink Ball

[Blue.]

hi

Hello.

[Blue.]

hi

Hello.

why me?

I kind of felt like you might have been trying to pocket me earlier.

[Blue.]

I kind of felt like you might have been trying to pocket me earlier.

was it with the voting previous townreads thing

It was the timing of that read as I was getting attention, yeah. And overall you've kind of occupied a space in the game I can see scum fitting into - you've been present and doing things but sort of going with the flow, moving onto votes when it looked like there was a bit of momentum toward a wagon.

[Blue.]

I kind of felt like you might have been trying to pocket me earlier.

was it with the voting previous townreads thing

It was the timing of that read as I was getting attention, yeah. And overall you've kind of occupied a space in the game I can see scum fitting into - you've been present and doing things but sort of going with the flow, moving onto votes when it looked like there was a bit of momentum toward a wagon.

yeah ok that's fair I thought you might say that lolz. Not a defense or an excuse or whatever but I know I haven't been the best Mafia player today lol. Probably why I didn't used to play games this big usually

Why does everyone gotta be so damn reasonable.

[Blue.]

I think black is town, because I think the things shes focused on seem idk out there.

Like I don't think most of what she's doing is likely to catch scum but I don't really think its the kind of stuff scum would poke at to look like they're trying to catch scum either.

Out there? I wouldn't really say I'm focused on anything. I'm just engaging with people and trying to form reads

Idk what you mean by this because you sorta agreed with me about Cakez and we agree about Invisibility...so how "out there" am I really?

Out there? I wouldn't really say I'm focused on anything. I'm just engaging with people and trying to form reads

Idk what you mean by this because you sorta agreed with me about Cakez and we agree about Invisibility...so how "out there" am I really?

I don't mean your opinions I mean your questions

I don't mean your opinions I mean your questions

Ok

Weird.

[Blue.]

UNVOTE:

I feel like I need to let the thread breathe, I just can't resist talking about myself. I want to hear more from Klick/Metens/Magical Girl/Cakez

[Blue.]

No, I'm not trying to pull an uno reverse card on you - I'm trying to understand what you actually find scummy about my vote. I thought my expressed reasoning was clear, and at the time no one asked me about it, so I felt no need to explain myself further.

I'm trying to understand why you believe that action has scum motivation to it.

i felt like your vote on black came out of nowhere because the case made sense to me, and you just sort of asserted that black's case was in bad faith? if you're town you're not gonna convince anyone that way, i'm not going to go out of my way to do the math bc i cant get the gears turning in your head when you say that. it feels much more like you jumped onto her case on cakez, looking for something to push imo.
that, and you'd sort of been doing the same thing with other players which isn't necessarily AI but i feel like the lack of energy in explaining things and the weird vibes i get is enough to vote you. though i might unvote later ebcause im not done catching up.

The case made sense to you. Do you think having a differing perspective is scummy? That strikes me as a narrow view.

You take issue with my rhetoric because you found it unpersuasive. But why is that

scummy

?

If I was "looking for something to push", why would I start a new wagon on a player who wasn't under suspicion, and then not elaborate on the case at all?

There's a dissonance to what you're expressing here - am I not being persuasive or am I "looking for something to push"? Those two ideas don't really seem to fit together to me.



I'm not super articulate, and when I explain my reads people tend to blow me off, but I have been forceful when I felt it was necessary, and I will usually try to explain myself when I'm asked questions (when I'm able to). I'm not trying to break the doors down and take over the game because it's Day 1 of a 23 player game, there's a lot of voices and I'm okay with playing on the sidelines a bit. I'm also on an alt, so that naturally is going to lead to people paying less attention to my words. This doesn't bother me because I'm still drawing information out of a lot of players and firming up my reads.

But - I absolutely have reads and have made them clear when I felt it's necessary. I'm not doing nothing. So why is my rhetoric scummy to you?

[Blue.]

You take issue with my rhetoric because you found it unpersuasive. But why is that scummy?

If I was "looking for something to push", why would I start a new wagon on a player who wasn't under suspicion, and then not elaborate on the case at all?

There's a dissonance to what you're expressing here - am I not being persuasive or am I "looking for something to push"? Those two ideas don't really seem to fit together to me.

you didn't say anything though? i recall you just dropping that black's case was bad and that she was doing it out of bad faith. no elaboration as to how or why. no explanation

That answered exactly none of my questions. Please re-read my post, and then try again.

[Blue.]

what this game needs is ITA shots

I was actually wishing I could just shoot at someone this game a little while ago.

[Blue.]

I still think Cakes is scummy for that dummy question and generally isn't doing very much.

VOTE: SirCakez

WTF why are people still hung up on the training dummy question?

If you ask me they're the real dummies!

[Blue.]

And its more like yo if I'm scum reading someone, and then I see a point they make that I agree with, I notice that and you know, maybe sort of think if this effects my scum read of them at all.

You're clearly not reading my content to determine my alignment if you didn't notice that?

I think it's possible for someone who isn't paying rapt attention to the thread to not remember where every post came from, he's not even the only person to do something like that. I think that's true regardless of his alignment so focusing on this aspect is unlikely to be revealing. I would like to hear from him what's pinged him about you but would also like to see him get current.

[Blue.]

You take issue with my rhetoric because you found it unpersuasive. But why is that scummy?

If I was "looking for something to push", why would I start a new wagon on a player who wasn't under suspicion, and then not elaborate on the case at all?

There's a dissonance to what you're expressing here - am I not being persuasive or am I "looking for something to push"? Those two ideas don't really seem to fit together to me.

you didn't say anything though? i recall you just dropping that black's case was bad and that she was doing it out of bad faith. no elaboration as to how or why. no explanation

That answered exactly none of my questions. Please re-read my post, and then try again.

your questions are missing the points i'm making, though?

What am I missing?

You say I "didn't say anything" and did not give an explanation for my read. That's taking issue with my rhetoric. But

why is not elaborating scummy

?

You accused me of "looking for something to push" - that's a direct quote. I asked why I would be targeting Black in this fashion if that was the case. What point am I missing?

In your own words

, you have said that I was "looking for something to push" but also had "no explanation" - how do these go together? Doesn't pushing someone necessarily require explanation if you hope to be persuasive? These ideas, to me, seem to be at odds with one another.


These are all asking you to simply clarify your own thought process, and in response you have just repeated the same banal reasoning toward me. I don't think what I am asking is unreasonable. You are accusing me of something, and I am asking you to explain why you think it is scummy.

[Blue.]

lol i was waiting for cakez to get to sheep's isos

I had a whole post typed up where I was going to defend sheep to him and got whacked with the p-edit. Cakez, if you're town, try to be a little less impulsive, lol.

[Blue.]

Patch being apologetic for contributing to the spam while also still doing it feels town. Like I do the spammy thing sometimes too and being self aware like that seems more townie behavior.

I feel like apologizing after people complained about it would be a nulltell at best?

[Blue.]

That wagon is awful because WhemeStar is really bad at it. Cakez I already said that his scumread on me is an ego thing rather than a real scumread

Wolfy AF

I feel like Pink Ball is engaging with this game from a scum PoV. Like when I read his posts I don't see a town PB generating those posts from his PoV but it definitely would make sense from scum PoV. Like 1429.

Why is that post summy? Because he's discrediting your read of him?

[Blue.]

I'm sitting here seeing cakez mainly has the same scumreads he had on page 10 and frowning.

[Blue.]

Also this is why I wanted to finish reading before talking - Squirtle I don't think you are scum anymore my dude

What inspired this turnaround?

[Blue.]

And when I say 'everyone's willing to vote me':
FB, Wheme and Cakez
Invis
Both Blue and Squirtle saying they don't mind if I die
Pseudo suspicion by FL
Black with the classic "uh that's very wolfy dude ngl"
sheep saying "PB scummy lol"
And everyone else who I don't give a fuck because they aren't memorable enough
(That's not true, I love you all)

I don't know where you got that from me, but I've been reading you as town for some time now, and will defend you from elimination.

Oh, just now remembering - I made the list of people I didn't want to kill (which was not necessarily explicitly townreads), and you weren't on it, but I was on the fence about you at the time, for reasons I'm not sure it's worth elaborating on right now. My view has changed since then.

[Blue.]

Ah, okay, that's good, was worried you were on full tilt. Would like to discuss your view of the game when you're feeling up for it and have a better grasp of things. I was kind of paranoid of you because you townread me when I was getting some heat, and I'm wary of pockets in a situation like that, but I'm willing to trust you now and want to work together.

[Blue.]

I'm sitting here seeing cakez mainly has the same scumreads he had on page 10 and frowning.

That's not really true?

logging all my random thoughts here while i read pgs 1-10

Titus claims Invest Ascetic? That could be a fakeclaim, Ill call it null for now

(Pink Ball excerpt post here)

soooo much shitposting thank fuck for Spotify beer and skimming

dont really think sheep is scummy and think this wagon is just people making up bs to end rvs

142 is funny and thus townie lmaoo

all of these early pushes are kinda garbage tbh, my only vibe thus far is Pink Ball does actually feel scummy and its not just our pre-declared war. he feels too much like he's worried what people think about him so he's just doing what the thread is doing.

I know who Chandra is and we are probably gonna clash heads at some point and 177 is indicative of that cuz I would probably SR that post from a lot of players. the whemestar vote/push is pretty weak.

197 mind meld with Norwe who saw the same thing I did. +++town points.

Squirtle is definitely making shit up as evidenced by the terrible Doctor Drew vote in 202

my main takeaway from those ten pages is that Chandra's push on Wheme is terrible and clearly made up. Why isn't she attacking me, who has been doing jackshit and even less then Wheme? its such a terrible push and Chandra is wayy better than this.

It feels like you just decided to scumread those players early on and stick to it no matter what? I think both Chandra and PB have posted substantial content since then but I don't get the sense you've considered it.

Admittedly, you no longer scumread squirtle, but your turnaround there feels political.

[Blue.]

Ah, okay, that's good, was worried you were on full tilt. Would like to discuss your view of the game when you're feeling up for it and have a better grasp of things. I was kind of paranoid of you because you townread me when I was getting some heat, and I'm wary of pockets in a situation like that, but I'm willing to trust you now and want to work together.

noting that this post is doing exactly what it says it is wary of in exactly the situation it says it is wary of it.

Yeah, I'm trying to pocket him because I want to work with him. I'm being pretty upfront about what I'm doing. In this game, you have to choose to trust people if you want to win, I'm opting to trust him, if he wants to say no he's free to do so.

What is your problem with me, exactly? I feel like I can't breathe without you throwing shade in my direction.

[Blue.]

VOTE: SirCakez

I feel like bringing this wagon back now.

[Blue.]

Ah, okay, that's good, was worried you were on full tilt. Would like to discuss your view of the game when you're feeling up for it and have a better grasp of things. I was kind of paranoid of you because you townread me when I was getting some heat, and I'm wary of pockets in a situation like that, but I'm willing to trust you now and want to work together.

noting that this post is doing exactly what it says it is wary of in exactly the situation it says it is wary of it.

Yeah, I'm trying to pocket him because I want to work with him. I'm being pretty upfront about what I'm doing. In this game, you have to choose to trust people if you want to win, I'm opting to trust him, if he wants to say no he's free to do so.

What is your problem with me, exactly? I feel like I can't breathe without you throwing shade in my direction.

I think you're scum. I thought that should be obvious.

Because...?

[Blue.]

Ah, okay, that's good, was worried you were on full tilt. Would like to discuss your view of the game when you're feeling up for it and have a better grasp of things. I was kind of paranoid of you because you townread me when I was getting some heat, and I'm wary of pockets in a situation like that, but I'm willing to trust you now and want to work together.

noting that this post is doing exactly what it says it is wary of in exactly the situation it says it is wary of it.

Yeah, I'm trying to pocket him because I want to work with him. I'm being pretty upfront about what I'm doing. In this game, you have to choose to trust people if you want to win, I'm opting to trust him, if he wants to say no he's free to do so.

What is your problem with me, exactly? I feel like I can't breathe without you throwing shade in my direction.

I think you're scum. I thought that should be obvious.

Because...?

I don't like the directions you go in, I think the way you played around my slot has many times been extremely opportunistic. I think you tend to chime in during situations where I think it shifts thread momentum in a way I don't like. I think you've played to discredit or prop up slots at times where, if I were scum, I would also be inclined to do so.

I think there isn't appetite to get you limmed right now and I don't feel super confident in knowing exactly what you were trying to accomplish with the aforementioned slots until I get some flips, and to preempt the question I'm not going to go pull quotes for you or anything, though I think I've called out a bunch in real time. (the shade you are referring to)

But I am cataloguing the things I see that I don't like as I go along.

I don't think I've ever really expressed suspicion of you so I don't know where you get the impression I was being "opportunistic". I expressed displeasure with how you were interacting with the game but it wasn't a read on your alignment. (I don't really want to re-open old wounds here but felt it necessary to clarify. I would appreciate if we could play amicably even if you continue to believe I'm scum).


Thanks though, I appreciate the answer. It clarifies a lot for me - really.

[Blue.]

I got beat by the previous posts, so I'll just amend that I acknowledge 1826 and will again state that at no point in that interaction was I actively expressing a scumread of you

I think you were testing the waters of a scum read multiple times and never got there because of thread politics.

The way you interacted with my slots at multiple points felt as if you were scum reading me but the fact that you never got there but also left me off your list of people you wouldn't vote for is something that has pinged me a lot. Basically you've directed a lot of negative attention towards my slot without actually committing to trying to push me.

To be perfectly honest?

I thought you might be town but left you off the list because your interaction with me made me feel bad and so I wouldn't care if you died. That's harsh but it's the truth, I'm not immune to feeling petty. I am a bit surprised people put so much weight on their non-inclusion on that list, although maybe I shouldn't be.


Some time later I began to wonder if you had actively manipulated me by guilt tripping me for expressing vaguely negative sentiment toward you. The whole thing left me feeling dirty.

This was partly why I questioned you. If there's a behavior that qualifies as "testing the waters of a scum read", surely taking potshots at me at every available opportunity must qualify as such. I couldn't fully understand where you were coming from with your read on me, so I asked you directly to see what your mindset was, because interrogating people directly about their reads on me is one of the best tools I have for determining. I think your explanation is plausible to me as a legitimate thought process. I mostly see where you're coming from now and understand it. I think your impression of me is misguided but genuine, and I clearly got off on the wrong foot with you, but I am hopeful this can be resolved in the future.

So, basically, I don't mind if you're paranoid of me.

[Blue.]

I misfade Cakez this week already, I don’t really feel like doing it again

Who do you feel like fading?

[Blue.]

because interrogating people directly about their reads on me is one of the best tools I have for determining

their alignment

.

EBWOP

[Blue.]

In a completely out of game sense you should consider that your impact matters more than your intention and maybe when someone tells you something you've said is insulting to them, you should apologize and move on with your life. This goes double for if you see someone referring to something as insulting when it is said by someone else and you choose to pile on and double down on that insult.

The same goes to you. The way you spoke to me feel incredibly uncomfortable. I understand and recognize you felt insulted by what I posted and I apologize for that, but it does not change the fact your response to this was hostile and painted everything I did as a personal affront, to the point I no longer felt comfortable interacting with you.

It's clear that although the tone of this discussion is a lot more civil, I think the fundamental issue still remains, and I feel like you are taking away the space for me to interact with you as an equal in this game.

Also I am not testing the waters of a scum read, I have a scum read on you. I have expressed several times that I think you are scum.

The distinction remains semantic at best when you're not fully committing to a case.

[Blue.]

KittyTacky, Titus, Doctor Drew, Invisibility
Pink Ball, Skygazer, Sheepsaysmeep, Firebringer, Flavor Leaf, Chandra Nalaar
NorwegianboyEE, WhemeStar, Not_Mafia, SquirtleSquad
Ranger, Metens, Save the Dragons, Klick, Magical Girl
Black
SirCakez, Patchwork


This is a quick stab at reads, it doesn't really feel like the best sort but really I'm operating on where the names feel right by instinct, and I don't likely anticipate all scum are in the bottom 3 tiers, especially since the middle is mostly full of null/uncertain slots. I could elaborate on these, but it would take more time than I'm willing to put in.

For Flavor Leaf in particular I will say I think his response to Pink Ball was pretty genuine - he had a tough loss and getting pink ball saying effectively "you should be reading me correctly if you're town" likely wounded him a bit. He's good enough to fake that, of course, but I lean toward it being real.

I do think patchwork's case is the worst of the scumreads on me - it's completely incoherent and when I chose to press them on it they could only bluntly reiterate the same banal arguments without so much as a hint of an actual underlying thought process. By contrast Titus and SquirtleSquad feel more believable - Titus's conviction is almost certainly coming from town.

Black is a special case - it looked like she was about to OMGUS me by accusing me of being informed in my reads, only to turn around and accept Pink Ball's explanation for me being town when overall thread sentiment turned out to be toward townreading me. Then when Titus came back to the game and scumread me in her catchup, it felt like Black saw that as an opportunity to start asking questions to try to make me look bad and possibly set up resuming the push on me. I think she's relatively unlikely to be scum with Cakez, though, so probably at least one of those reads is wrong.

[Blue.]

Thought squirtlesquad was someone different than who he is - don't know how that affects my read exactly. Was feeling unhappy to the point of not wanting to play but I'll sleep on it.

[Blue.]

VOTE: patchwork

[Blue.]

What am I missing?

You say I "didn't say anything" and did not give an explanation for my read. That's taking issue with my rhetoric. But why is not elaborating scummy?

You accused me of "looking for something to push" - that's a direct quote. I asked why I would be targeting Black in this fashion if that was the case. What point am I missing?

In your own words, you have said that I was "looking for something to push" but also had "no explanation" - how do these go together? Doesn't pushing someone necessarily require explanation if you hope to be persuasive? These ideas, to me, seem to be at odds with one another.


These are all asking you to simply clarify your own thought process, and in response you have just repeated the same banal reasoning toward me. I don't think what I am asking is unreasonable. You are accusing me of something, and I am asking you to explain why you think it is scummy.

OH okay thanks for elaborating
1 - i think it's weird because usually scum will try to find a townie to push and it aligns with what i sort of try to do- lay the grounds for a somewhat weak push. it's weirder because when you were voting black you didn't really contest what she was saying? you just went, oh, you're grandstanding, oh, this is out of bad faith, but never explained why. it just makes me a little more skeptical of your motivation
2 - your questions were kind of missing my point in hand because i didn't think they were responding to what i was tyring to say
3 - they do go together- having no explanation is a hyperbole, sorry. i was just trying to show that from my point of view, your defense on cakez was just generally kind of mediocre and pushing black with little to no reasoning didnt vibe right w me.

sorry for teh short responses, 6am, mafia addiction, etc

"usually scum will try to find a townie to push" - okay, and town will usually try to find scum. What makes, in your estimation, my push on Black more likely to be a scum motivated one than a town motivated one? You don't trust the fact that I didn't explain enough for you - is that a scumtell?

You argue that I was missing your point - how could I possibly be doing that when I was

directly quoting you

and trying to get you to explain? Was I somehow not responding to you when I did that? Or are you just being evasive?

Literally two points above this you said I never explained my push, and now you claim it's hyperbole. You can't seem to stick to a single narrative, you twist and turn with every new post. You can claim you simply didn't like my arguments, but you still claimed I was "looking for something to push". You haven't actually explained how that goes along with not having an explanation, you just said "uhh yeah they do". That's not an answer.


I find your reasoning to be nonsensical. You've mostly said the same thing over and over, but in a more word salad way. It doesn't feel like you actually care about or are trying to understand my thinking, and are just making up excuses to attack me.

[Blue.]

I feel like we're going to talk until deadline here, have 200 pages of useless info that nobody wants to read, and then need to rush some wagon that might be ill-adviced.
And i've tried to encourage wagon-building but it's been shut down.

So who wants to vote Drew?

Some friendly advice: While I agree that the way things are going isn't great, idly complaining about it isn't likely to achieve much other than maybe annoying a few people. In order to get things done, you need to actively persuade people to join your wagon. Not just by going "who wants to vote Drew?" but by appealing to them directly, arguing your case, and trying to create some level of cohesion. Building a wagon takes work, they don't materialize magically.

I don't really agree with you on Drew, and I trust my own instincts above those of other players generally, so I'm not going to help you out with that, but I encourage you to try being a leader if you really care about getting things done.

[Blue.]

I feel like we're going to talk until deadline here, have 200 pages of useless info that nobody wants to read, and then need to rush some wagon that might be ill-adviced.
And i've tried to encourage wagon-building but it's been shut down.

So who wants to vote Drew?

Some friendly advice: While I agree that the way things are going isn't great, idly complaining about it isn't likely to achieve much other than maybe annoying a few people. In order to get things done, you need to actively persuade people to join your wagon. Not just by going "who wants to vote Drew?" but by appealing to them directly, arguing your case, and trying to create some level of cohesion. Building a wagon takes work, they don't materialize magically.

I don't really agree with you on Drew, and I trust my own instincts above those of other players generally, so I'm not going to help you out with that, but I encourage you to try being a leader if you really care about getting things done.

I like Blue now

You like me for a post that is objectively completely NAI.

You have defended like half the slots in the game at this point. At some point, you have offered scum shelter and comfort.

I don't doubt my reads aren't perfect, because literally no one has perfect reads, but the majority of players in a game are going to be town, and so I'm going to end up defending most players. I don't think that's an incorrect way of playing at all. Town has a limited number of eliminations and if you can prevent them from being used on townies that's a good thing. I think I'm relatively good at identifying when a wagon is bad, and on Day 1 most wagons are going to be bad, because people are flailing about randomly. I'm not really that concerned if I'm townreading scum somewhere because nothing prevents that read from being re-evaluated down the line.

This is a good example of a Blue post that has contributed to my thus far ignoring the things I find scummy about him, i.e. tossing around defenses like candy, the "hostile" interactions, and treading into others' lines of questioning. The tone works well, it has a way of coming off as earnest. I am in the process of considering whether this player could simply be skilled at replicating tone, because their actions have largely said scum to me I don't ignore my gut.

Assume my scum range is infinite and that's why I'm alting (It's not, but for the purposes of this thought exercise I need you to pretend). Why do any of the things you listed work to further a scum win condition, especially defending a large number of players?

[Blue.]

Game feels a bit cooked between the replacements and multiple people hitting prod range.

[Blue.]

This is a good example of a Blue post that has contributed to my thus far ignoring the things I find scummy about him, i.e. tossing around defenses like candy, the "hostile" interactions, and treading into others' lines of questioning. The tone works well, it has a way of coming off as earnest. I am in the process of considering whether this player could simply be skilled at replicating tone, because their actions have largely said scum to me I don't ignore my gut.

Assume my scum range is infinite and that's why I'm alting (It's not, but for the purposes of this thought exercise I need you to pretend). Why do any of the things you listed work to further a scum win condition, especially defending a large number of players?

Pocketing townies and being able to defend partners definitely further a scum win condition.

Answering questions for others prevents scumhunting.

Do you think I'm posting like I'm trying to pocket people? Who do you think are my teammates I'm defending? Why can't I just have those reads as town? If you're going to make that accusation, get specific.


You realize you literally answered a question for me and made a joke about it, right? Not to go

tu quoque

on you, I recognize I might have butted in at times when it was poor form to do so, but that does not actually make me scum. Sometimes people do things that are unhelpful despite being town. Do you actually think that thing is a reliable indicator of finding mafia? Like, at all?

[Blue.]

im up for wagoning black actually

I think pressuring Black is a lot more likely to be revealing than a wagon on someone who is a typical Day 1 elim.


For a fun exercise, look through Black's ISO and try to tell me what she actually believes about this game.

[Blue.]

This is a good example of a Blue post that has contributed to my thus far ignoring the things I find scummy about him, i.e. tossing around defenses like candy, the "hostile" interactions, and treading into others' lines of questioning. The tone works well, it has a way of coming off as earnest. I am in the process of considering whether this player could simply be skilled at replicating tone, because their actions have largely said scum to me I don't ignore my gut.

Assume my scum range is infinite and that's why I'm alting (It's not, but for the purposes of this thought exercise I need you to pretend). Why do any of the things you listed work to further a scum win condition, especially defending a large number of players?

Pocketing townies and being able to defend partners definitely further a scum win condition.

Answering questions for others prevents scumhunting.

Do you think I'm posting like I'm trying to pocket people? Who do you think are my teammates I'm defending? Why can't I just have those reads as town? If you're going to make that accusation, get specific.

Yes.

I don't have to solve it all at once - and I'm not even coming at you yet. When I am, you'll know.

If you're town, shut the hell up and let others scumhunt. Your constant defenses make sense from someone who believes they are perfect or someone who has complete knowledge of all players' alignments, and I don't think you're the former.

You realize you literally answered a question for me and made a joke about it, right? Not to go

tu quoque

on you, I recognize I might have butted in at times when it was poor form to do so, but that does not actually make me scum. Sometimes people do things that are unhelpful despite being town. Do you actually think that thing is a reliable indicator of finding mafia? Like, at all?

Yes I did that exactly once, because the question was dumb, while acknowledging that my action was mildly antitown.

I find this last question to be a veiled discredit and am choosing to ignore it.

I get that you're doing some kind of playstyle experiment, and I respect the spirit of that, but it's really brutally unpleasant to interact with. Telling me to "shut the hell up" for daring to speak opinions is a completely uncalled for level of hostility relative to what I have done. I have said I was wrong to interrupt people when they were questioning someone and will endeavor to interfere less in the future.

I'll continue to defend my townreads, because that's how I believe people should play the game. I think your reads are unlikely to be very accurate thus far, but it's possible you are seeing some things I have not. Best of luck.

[Blue.]

im up for wagoning black actually

I think pressuring Black is a lot more likely to be revealing than a wagon on someone who is a typical Day 1 elim.


For a fun exercise, look through Black's ISO and try to tell me what she actually believes about this game.

I seem to remember me and PB pushing her for exactly this in the just finished Team Mafia game.

The problem is we were scum and she was town.

Appreciate the perspective, I'll give it a look.

[Blue.]

Your avatar looks broken to me, is it just me?

It's not showing up for me either.

[Blue.]

Atm my out-of-date reads are something like

KittyTacky
Flavor Leaf
sheepsaysmeep
SquirtleSquad
SirCakez

Chandra Nalaar
Metens
Magical Girl
Pink Ball
NorwegianboyEE
Ranger
Firebringer

jjh927
WhemeStar
Blue.
Doctor Drew
Titus
Invisibility
Patchwork
Black
Not_Mafia

I asked you this a million years ago, but why a townlean on Metens?

[Blue.]

This whole accusing someone of being hostile when they aren't being hostile thing is really becoming a pattern with you.

Telling me to "shut the hell up" is incredibly rude, and I have absolutely not done anything to warrant that.

[Blue.]

Having witnessed this conversation once I already know it is not worth my time.

Really, is it so hard to believe I'm a human being playing this game and I don't appreciate to be told to shut up for expressing my reads, or being cursed at, or being treated in a demeaning fashion and then getting told it's all in my head and I'm making things up when I complain, that my feelings are not valid? I have never experienced this level of a visceral reaction to what I view as basically normal posts. And no, it's not about the suspicion on me, but the manner in which people like you have repeatedly tried to make me feel like I am not valid and my presence in the game is not welcome. That anything I do to express myself or try to play the game is wrong. I try to approach you respectfully, you tell me to shut up and when I tell you you're being rude, you tell me it's all in my head and I'm not worth your time. I quite literally see no purpose to what you are doing other than to psychologically antagonize me. I don't think it's unreasonable of me to expect the barest shred of empathy when I've been trying to engage with the game respectfully (after literally getting warned by the game moderator for a post I made, which was out of line).


I really thought you were better than this. I'm disappointed.