i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]
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In post 56, furtiveglance wrote:
They just asked about why it wouldn't be good to massclaim early which seems a bit redundant given that it's never a good idea. Unless I misreadIn post 55, tris wrote:hello do you agree with gamma that andree is town?
So Gamma could be right, but too meaningless to get my approval
It seems like you both disagree with gamma's read. Does that impact your reads on her?In post 57, tris wrote:there were things about it specific to this game considering there was specific warning given. but, i would agree it doesn't indicate town. mech talk is really easy to do regardless of allignment.-
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40? I kind of liked how it said it wanted to gauge reactions to the question in real time, and dropped the matter as a dead end when the responses weren't engaging the question instead of continuing to encourage mech spec-
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IIoA... BruhIn post 86, Frogsterking wrote:
Mmm this pings me as IIoA and maybe out of character for csf because town!csf has townread me before for doing the same thing.In post 85, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Oh man Frogster did you roll scum? You came in swinging with 4 scumreads and then sort of backed down from 2 of them almost right away-
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All right, that's probably fairIn post 94, Frogsterking wrote:I think that's a really negative way to frame that. I can't expect all of my page 3 reads to be correct
I also forgot you did a 180 on Malcolm in LOST kind of early
Tbh i feel like 86 was a scummy way to respond, but eh, admittedly i have some bop on your slot-
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you kind of just reflexively sussed me, and the reason behind it felt kind of shallow. like maybe I townread you for doing something in one game, but contexts are usually differentIn post 97, Frogsterking wrote:
...why?In post 95, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Tbh i feel like 86 was a scummy way to respond, but eh
And I still maintain it's not IIoA lol
And stuff like this just makes me go 'bruh'
Buttering up?In post 95, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:admittedly i have some bop on your slot-
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I didn't post one page 1?In post 98, Ranger wrote:{Save The Dragons}
{tris, Cat Scratch Fever}
{GeorgeBailey}
{McMenno}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{Titus, KittyTacky, High PrincessErinys, Vaxkiller, Morning Tweet, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, Frogsterking, kitten around, Ythan, Quiet Owl}
{andree}
{Lycanfire}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}
P1.
VOTE: Gamma Emerald-
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I have Lycanfire, tris, and maybe andree on the town side of nullIn post 100, Frogsterking wrote:Csf can you post a reads list?
I don't really have any scumreads. Maybe HPE for popping in and saying something irrelevant-
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no, it was more like he immediately shut down my line of thought without seeing if there was more to it than "he flipped his read," since I think changing your reads can either be towny or scummy depending on the situation.In post 129, Morning Tweet wrote:This feels lightly scummy. Are you saying town!frog wouldn't be scumreading you (like burden of proof)? To me it seems too early to believe that
But at the same time, 86 could also conceivably come from Town!Frogs because I have been quick to read him right in the past.-
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obligatory what do you think of frog and the wagonIn post 169, tris wrote:hey, ythan. what do you think of the others voting frog-
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Can you bold the words in 85 that were false bravado?In post 215, Quiet Owl wrote:i do NOT like the look of cat scratch fever. post 85 reminds me of me when i'm playing scum, false bravado to try and look towny.-
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My wording was probably imprecise. To be clear, the reasoning you use to push people and how you arrive at reads can be unusual, which makes you liable to be read as scummy. I don't think the reason behind Ythan's vote, for instance, is an actual scum tell for you.In post 211, Frogsterking wrote: 'Bruh'..-
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What would have been a response to Morning Tweet's question in 187 that wouldn't involve a realistic chance of meta manipulation?In post 223, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
Realistic chance this is a brand of meta manipualtion. "No look guys THIS is how I play as scum. Therefore, I am NOT scum.". This one doesn't care for meta analysis but it just thought this was worth pointing out. Detailing ways you would've/could've did things as scum but didn't feels itself a smidge scummy in an abstract sense.In post 203, Frogsterking wrote:
Not really, no. I just completed a scum game recently:In post 187, Morning Tweet wrote:Lol
How good are you at feigning full solving the game as scum, as well as exerting control over it?
Frog describing himself as gloating and solved from his point of view, and so on is kinda my impression of town!Frog. He's one of those players that has a read on everyone. But I don't know how well Frog emulates this sort of excitement for solving as scum
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89984&user_select[]=16233
Most of what I provide as scum is in the scum chat I think. For thread control in the past I focused on tinfoiling, bloating the thread with dumb discussions and then lurking out once I draw too much heat. I find it a bit overwhelming to actually attempt to imitate my town game as scum.
If your purpose isn't to shade or scumread (28), then why torpedo this response? Can you clarify your read on Frogs?-
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What do you mean by 'underperforming'? My 1 game experience with Ythan was that he was perceived as kind of scummy as townIn post 250, Frogsterking wrote: I also did some research on Ythan's meta and I could post the cliff notes of that I guess if I just have oodles of time. My main takeaway from Ythan past games is that they are a very capable player as both alignments and are grossly underperforming this game, not only how they have previously played as Town but also how they have previously played as scum, which makes me suspect Ythan might be 3rd party who wants to fly under the radar.-
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Just to make sure I understood this post right - are you saying when people self meta to prove themselves as town, they tend to lie more often than not? If so, I disagree with that conclusionIn post 238, Gamma Emerald wrote: Oversimplification. Erinys is more so saying the means of presentation are not enticing.
I back Erinys’ comment here since I have experienced other players doing the sort of thing it accused Froggy off doing.
Elements admitted to not having read the game yet, why did you feel the need to say this?In post 266, Gamma Emerald wrote:I said I was gonna avoid meta but this is just comical
I don’t think Elements has ever voted scum!me, but he frequently scumreads town!me-
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@Gamma, yea players can lie about their own meta. But on balance, I think there tends to be veins of truth in self meta.
What Frogs said can be a lie, but I feel like the same can be said for almost anything in forum mafia. So when High Princess said he could've been manipulating his meta, like sure he could've been - that almost goes without saying - but is he actually?
Fixed the quote linkIn post 272, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:What would have been a response to Morning Tweet's question in 187 that wouldn't involve a realistic chance of meta manipulation?
If your purpose isn't to shade or scumread (228), then why torpedo this response? Can you clarify your read on Frogs?-
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What's its logic here? The potential meta manipulation was important to call out (because Frog was self aware), even though the usage of self meta didn't move the needle on its readIn post 288, Morning Tweet wrote: You make a good point that Frog seems to be very aware of this thread-bloating point, that's a very good catch with 145 actually I missed that he had brought this up before.I understand why you made the precaution-
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Because it came in the thread to write 68 without commenting on game-related stuffIn post 305, tris wrote:
never got a response to this from cat scratchIn post 175, tris wrote: also, why did u vote princess?-
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He's scumreading you, but confused your post with someone else's. Absent any other stated reason for scumreading you, i think this carelessness is scummy. His HPE read was also a bit of a hedge.
Also i think the votes on this wagon are good-
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She is somewhat more proactive here than she is at scum. She's fairly skilled at being in the background as scum.In post 388, Frogsterking wrote:I want to take a different direction, can players who townread Gamma-I'm thinking csf and dragons especially-explain why you townread Gamma? I have ideas about why, but I'd rather give you a chance to explain.
Calling for a 1v1 with you is not what I'd imagine she'd do as scum.-
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Calling out people who haven't posted in the game yet is +scum in my experience. It looks like contributing while doing nothing to advance conversation. Unless it is explicitly calling them scum for lurking, which I don't think it is doing.In post 425, Gamma Emerald wrote:
Good breadth of interestIn post 418, tris wrote:
y?In post 317, Gamma Emerald wrote:
I like thisIn post 295, HighPrincessErinys wrote:Frog meta stuff aside, this one is wondering where tapiocaphobe and Vaxkiller are, and where Ranger went.
I did this. It looks like you wanted to encourage a 1v1 between Frogs & Gamma and found the flimsiest reasons to do so - not even closely reading your scumread's posts & trying to piggyback off of my "scumread" on them when in fact I had the opposite read.In post 426, imaginality wrote:The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).I can understand why, "imaginality mixed up two players and is a bit noncommital so far" is nice easy justification for a vote so it's tempting for scum who don't have to lie to join the wagon.Helps that I'm low activity so not likely to push back as noisily as some players would. It's a wagon scum can hope might lead to a mislim that looks understandable and if it doesn't they don't look bad for being on it and pressuring me to play more.
I vibe a lot with this postIn post 435, Lycanfire wrote:My vote has three main points to it
1) i like a lot of the people on the wagon, so i looked into imaginality. I dont like how they're drawing attention to the 1v1. I've mentioned the concept of "acceptable wagons" in past games. It's been a great scumtell for me when someone tries to magnify two people because it provides great protection to scum.
2) i still like frogster despite my concern about them. I don't like the wagon on them and don't think it's good for the game.
3) vanitying gamma just seemed shit. She should be easy to resolve and isnt going anywhere-
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You don't have to be sold on town!Imaginality, but I don't see why he is the best wagon.In post 592, Ranger wrote:Now answer me this: give a single reason beyond the claim for imaginality to be town.
This feels like virtue signalling. I doubt you don't know what a pressure wagon is.In post 595, Quiet Owl wrote:
THIS ^^^In post 594, Gamma Emerald wrote:I don’t really have good reasons to call imaginify town but I don’t think the reasons for the votes on him are that good either. Lazy/weak play is rather unimpressive as a reason since it feels like they just got off to a bad start that got capitalized on.
Aside from that a main focus is pushing a 1v1 of me vs. Frogsterking. I don’t really have an issue here except with you buying into that while having me all the way down in your reads. I don’t think you should be calling that a problem except if you think either a) me and Frog are both town or b) I would feel bold enough to go toe-to-toe with Frog as scum here and feel like I could come out relatively unscathed. Clearly you don’t believe a), so what about my play so far suggests b) to be true?
Lastly, the “disingenuous paragraph” may overgeneralize the votes but it captures a lot of what I feel like is wrong with the imaginify wagon. And I think the writing feels towny given how imprecise it is: scum would try to ensure clarity in that paragraph imo.
I guess the one thing that does stick out to me is the use of “noncommittal” as a thing people are calling their okay when that was used to refer to furtive iirc
we don't have a deadline.why are we rushing to eliminate someone when the case on them is this flimsy?
In post 600, Ythan wrote:
circus noisesIn post 599, Frogsterking wrote:Based on what I've been taught about "wagonomics"
I think you're unnaturally focused on Frogster's posts. Looking at your ISO, most of your posts are about/to Frogster, and I feel like town would be casting a wider net.In post 601, Ythan wrote:
Everyone read this out loud and hear how ridiculous it sounds.In post 599, Frogsterking wrote:Redirecting attention onto furtive and Ythan reveals the intriguing possibility that the spoiler quotes are scum theater:-
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"why are we rushing to eliminate..." - literally who is rushing to eliminate besides maybe Ranger (and even then her vote might change)? The wagon is a major pressure wagon and one of the first "real" wagons we have in this game, but I don't see us eliminating soon with a few slots not even having posted yet.In post 619, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Because Imaginality is not even close to getting eliminated... I don't think he is even the top wagon. The wagon only feels sticky because many players have not checked in since Titus' claim due to Christmas. I expect the wagon will fall apart once people's activities pick up again.-
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Because it's a pressure wagon, I doubt most people on it are voting to eliminate without further evidence. Maybe they misread people's intentions and think people want to push Imaginality over - that could be true - but given that they're vote hopping themselves, I kind of doubt it?In post 624, kitten around wrote:
I just don’t understand why it’s virtue signalling, why can’t it be a genuine take?In post 619, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Because Imaginality is not even close to getting eliminated... I don't think he is even the top wagon. The wagon only feels sticky because many players have not checked in since Titus' claim due to Christmas. I expect the wagon will fall apart once people's activities pick up again.-
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Why is Enchant moderate town and Elements & HighPrincess weak town?
On the last wagon hop, I moved off imaginality after your blatant soft.
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Why does this make you doubt her claim?In post 643, HighPrincessErinys wrote:The more this one thinks about it the less likely it thinks Titus's mason claim is real. Their insistence on things like the PT, knowing imaginality's alignment, etc etc are all convincing, buta D1 outing of two masons when one had at most 7 out of 12 votesand has since dropped from that... It's kind of insane, honestly. Really sketched out by this.-
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He's town and tunneled on you & Titus scum. That's why he keeps coming back to the same central ideas.In post 678, Gamma Emerald wrote: I would believe this if he wasn’t continually circling back to the same few central ideas. When my thought process runs wild, it becomes completely erratic.
I didn't like her recent pop in fwiwIn post 689, Frogsterking wrote: 615 it may be fair but it doesn't make sense as an excuse as they've "engaged" the game this way on all days, not just Christmas.
You're reading the games very differently right now, so it makes sense for Frogster to naturally be suspicious of you. Hence, he's also treating you differently & engaging differently. Have you played with Scum!Frogster? (Actually, do you remember my meta towncase on him in LOST?) I think he's far out of his scum comfort zone here.In post 697, Titus wrote:
This is a sample even though we found each other fast that game. Town!Frogster expects "off the wall" takes from my perspective. He still engages even when I FoS him. In fact my off the wall take was based off VCA, which I could have included in my case here.In post 900, Frogsterking wrote:This seems like a really wild take and it is also something I might expect from town Titus maybe. I was wondering if it was a bad look for Chungus and Dragons to be refusing to vote each other in the way that they are.
I think all 3 of {Frogs, Gamma, Titus} are town, and this continued back and forth is damaging to the game state.-
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Can't the differences in reaction towards you be accounted for because you flipped Scum in Masque?In post 737, Titus wrote:That's my whole point with him here. He originally claimed to think my mason claim was town.
He thought I was dumb town in Masque.He had a frustrated tone. Here, he argued two town cores going after each other which should be immensely frustrating. Yet, when I posted my reads and called out his townblock theory, he turned on a dime. So I'd like to talk about those. This argument is getting circular and nowhere. No one is saying anything new.-
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Town will not play perfectly and won't always wait until E-2 until claiming. As for whether this is a scum gambit, if one of them goes down, then the other does too. It ties them together, which is something scum avoid doing and why I'm inclined to trust it.In post 722, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
Because it's an extremely weird circumstance to claim Mason with someone else in? All it's really going to do, if true, is paint a target on their backs in the future because 7/12 really does not need a D1 mason claim to save your buddy, it would've been alot better to wait until around E-3/2 or so because then there's a very immediate and credible threat to imaginality's life. Now Titus has thrown both of them into the line of mafia fire just to pull imaginality's wagon a further away from the finish line. They're either scum partners, something other than masons, or masons who felt the need to make aIn post 646, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
Why does this make you doubt her claim?In post 643, HighPrincessErinys wrote:The more this one thinks about it the less likely it thinks Titus's mason claim is real. Their insistence on things like the PT, knowing imaginality's alignment, etc etc are all convincing, buta D1 outing of two masons when one had at most 7 out of 12 votesand has since dropped from that... It's kind of insane, honestly. Really sketched out by this.reallystrange play.
As for the other argument - Titus & imaginality aren't masons but Titus is fakeclaiming something, I still don't see why they need to be resolved today-
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It's in the quoted 737 but also starting with 669. Specifically, Titus says that Frogster is not expressing enough frustration towards her and is not treating her as if she's dumb Town.In post 765, Gamma Emerald wrote:What is the interaction Titus is referring to from Masque, then?
I don't know what you meant when you said Frogs is treating you different than he did Masque - if there is a specific interaction you have in mind, I'll take a look at it. But as MT said, people are not always going to treat others the exact same way. How they choose to respond and react to specific things has a lot to do with how they were already reading the game-
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Why did you vote furtive here? was it solely because of 72?
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622 was in response to Quiet Owl's 595, who said we were "rushing to eliminate imaginality." Here, I was arguing that we weren't rushing to eliminate imaginality, and I was not sure how anyone could possibly have that take. However if I were to be charitable towards Quiet Owl's post,In post 830, Ranger wrote:
You're not the first to suggest I'm rushing to eliminate.In post 622, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:literally who is rushing to eliminate besides maybe Ranger (and even then her vote might change)?
Where's the narrative come from?
I'm certainly making a case as to why we shouldn't let imaginality coast on a claim I don't believe is true, but that's far from rushing the day through. My reads will change, especially when given compelling (counter-)arguments.
And, yes, my vote may indeed change.maybe youwere "rushing to eliminate" from Owl's perspective.-
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