i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[Frogsterking]

I have like 4 scum reads. Off the top of my head they're tris for asking some awkward looking questions, Ythan specifically for 62, the doll gimmick player has a first post I think feels safe to make from a scum PoV, and the lycanfire player has a first post followed by a second post which I think are safe from a scum PoV.

I'll read back and clarify on tris I guess: 37, 55, 64 I think can be kinda scummy.

I think furtive, csf and gamma seem OK based purely on meta but I'm not that confident. I don't actually understand Gamma's townread on andree but if Gamma is indeed town then I would probably sheep their townread on andree.

[Frogsterking]

there;s always someone who scumreads me for asking questions. what if i told you i always do that?

I can believe it. You're more null then I guess.

thats funny. i gut wanted to townread her for that.

I'm not feeling it. Do you have some kind of meta reason for your read?

[Frogsterking]

no. it just felt like they had a specific reason to ask that question that might come from an inquisitive townie.

I don't see it at all and this feels to me like town (tris) impulsively townreading scum (Ythan) for a bad reason (77.) I'm going to go ahead and double down on that.

VOTE: Ythan

The other player I'm willing to vote at this point is Princess. I'll reserve judgement on lycan and tris.

[Frogsterking]

I agree w tris that Ythan’s 62 feels town, and I do have the ability to explain if desired

Yes, might as well explain.

[Frogsterking]

Oh man Frogster did you roll scum? You came in swinging with 4 scumreads and then sort of backed down from 2 of them almost right away

Mmm this pings me as IIoA and maybe out of character for csf because town!csf has townread me before for doing the same thing.

[Frogsterking]

Oh man Frogster did you roll scum? You came in swinging with 4 scumreads and then sort of backed down from 2 of them almost right away

Mmm this pings me as IIoA and maybe out of character for csf because town!csf has townread me before for doing the same thing.

IIoA... Bruh

Yeah you're just commentating on something I did and posing an open question like "did that thing frogster just did make them scummy?" There's no analysis behind that.

link?

Town!csf from LOST, earlyish D1:

I think changing reads early unprompted tends to come from town

But you changing your read here doesn't mean much, since it came quickly after Klick hard townread rad

I'm primarily town reading frogster for being flexible with reads

There is a marked tone difference, but i can think of one reason to explain that. But he can answer for himself

[Frogsterking]

You just dropped your reads like less than 1 page later. It shows that you didn't really believe in those reads

I doubt you did that in LOST

I think that's a really negative way to frame that. I can't expect all of my page 3 reads to be correct and I updated my reads on tris and lycan after interacting with them for the first time. I also think updating my reads shows I'm thinking about the game or whatever. I feel like you've been onboard with this line of thinking when I've played with town!csf so I'm seriously considering whether you are scum peddling some early BS.

What made you reconsider lycanfire?

Here

i expect great things from you

I thought this was an underreaction to being accused early if lycan is scum

how important is it for you to color slots, tris?

It's more of a question of playstyle or values, I guess.

How compelled do you feel to attribute town feeling and scum feeling to a slot. Do you do this for every slot? Just some?

I thought doubling down on the questioning here was townie

[Frogsterking]

I can get behind this vote though

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys

I feel like Ythan saw CSF’s play at that point as pressing others for reads rather than working on making her own so she opted to press CSF on it

I was viewing it from a PoV where scum!ythan sees an opportunity to frame town!csf in a scummy light and maybe get an early BW going there.

I can see what you're saying though because I looked through csf iso and there are a lot of words but not really any reads that I saw. I could see town!Ythan being silently aware of that and then jumping on csf as soon as they saw that question.

Tbh i feel like 86 was a scummy way to respond, but eh

...why?

admittedly i have some bop on your slot

Buttering up?

[Frogsterking]

Csf can you post a reads list?

[Frogsterking]

Csf can you post a reads list?

I have Lycanfire, tris, and maybe andree on the town side of null

I don't really have any scumreads. Maybe HPE for popping in and saying something irrelevant

That's all?

[Frogsterking]

{Save The Dragons}
{tris, Cat Scratch Fever}
{GeorgeBailey}
{McMenno}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{Titus, KittyTacky, High PrincessErinys, Vaxkiller, Morning Tweet, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, Frogsterking, kitten around, Ythan, Quiet Owl}
{andree}
{Lycanfire}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}

P1.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I didn't post one page 1?

Spoiler:

This is funny and also +scum (for csf) and +town for Ranger.

[Frogsterking]

Oh man Frogster did you roll scum? You came in swinging with 4 scumreads and then sort of backed down from 2 of them almost right away

Mmm this pings me as IIoA and maybe out of character for csf because town!csf has townread me before for doing the same thing.

Did you mean some other term over IIoA?

No I meant what I said, the commentary on recent events with no individual analysis is what stood out to me the most. I guess if I wanted to throw the book at csf I could also claim 85 is a baseless accusation, hedgey/testing the waters on a frog wagon and that it's trying to discredit me for making early attempts at solving. What I think is most AI though is the IIoA element because I think the other tells can be side effects from town trying to stir something up to get reads.

Why? Did you have something else in mind other IIoA?

[Frogsterking]

it seemed like analysis to me and there's been plenty of iioa in this thread so to be so up in csf's shit for the play by play was interesting

why should people vote ythan?

What about 85 seemed like analysis to you?

Also, my read on Ythan is in flux at the moment because I'm very skeptical of csf play so far and that changes how I view 62.

[Frogsterking]

Here's the scum post from a previous game which Ythan's 62 pinged me for:

viewtopic.php?p=13548554#p13548554

iioa sucks because the person doing it isn't making any worthwhile interactions. by making one it isn't iioa, imo.

Maybe, I can see it.

Iioa is more what Andree and Enchant were doing on the first few pages. How do you feel about them?

I'd categorize that stuff separately as mech spec which I view as more NAI. I kind of low key think both enchant and andree are town.

[Frogsterking]

I feel like there is a scum slot between ythan/princess/furtive.

I also have a 6 player towncore ready in my imagination. Ranger is in it. I'd like to hear from Ranger on how serious their reads are on George, Princess and Gamma.

[Frogsterking]

Morning Tweet is town

KT is town too

[Frogsterking]

idk about Frogster, backing out on tris so fast might be scum theatre but I can't say I scumread him otherwise.

Oh come off it, assuming tris is town, then as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them.

Gamma doesn't seem very much like town Gamma but that might be a "took a break" thing.

I feel like I've had thoughts like this when interacting with scum Gamma in the past. Between you, Ranger and Tweet's reads on Gamma I think Gamma is a good contender for a D1/D2 lim.

It's not just a 'gimmick', y'know. Also, ehh? If you wanna point fingers for first posts then maybe you should add like, basically everyone. Of course a first post is going to be "safe" from "scum PoV" when first posts 99 times out of 100 are essentially "hi" with or without an RV attached. Lycanfire's too. It makes sense half of these reads got dropped because they are, ESPECIALLY flimsy for page 3, but either way it's just Eh to this one. Frogster's 86 jumps out to it as more immediately wacky.

This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative. I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated. Consider me sold on a quickhammer here if the game comes to that.

VOTE: Princess

But at the same time, 86 could also conceivably come from Town!Frogs because I have been quick to read him right in the past.

I think it's somewhat likely that I overreacted because you've read me right quickly in the past. I was thinking about it and I'm no longer convinced that there's a scum motivation for you to play this way. I'm not sure how defined your playstyle is as scum but I'm picturing you as more pockety and under the radar when you're scum. I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us.

I kind of skimmed the last few paegs I don't think frogsterking is looking that great here

VOTE: frogsterking

OMGUS

__

Town

Ranger
Dragons
KT
Tweet
Tris

Town leans

CSF*
Lycan
Enchant
Andree

Null

Titus
George
NM
Tapiaco
Vax
Kitten Around
Owl
Imaginality

Scum lean

McMennon (OMGUS)

Scum

Ythan
Furtive
Gamma
Princess

*With CSF the only two things making me town lean instead of town are the bop comment in 95 and the cautious vs reckless theme in 106. Lycan explained the concept well in 114. Overall I feel like CSF is probably town but I'm not confident yet.

[Frogsterking]

Gonna give y’all a little tip: you might not want to kill me.

Damn, if only I could vote two players at once.

[Frogsterking]

Here's the scum post from a previous game which Ythan's 62 pinged me for:

viewtopic.php?p=13548554#p13548554

Huh?? Are you talking about the capitalization?

Excuse me

I feel like the capitalization helped me to draw the connection and the underlying pattern is shade posted in the format of a question with feigned conviction.

[Frogsterking]

I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta. I'm fine ending the day relatively early as this slot isn't flipping town.

VOTE: Gamma

is no one interested in voting furtive wif me?

I already find Gamma and Princess scummy enough to quickhammer. I saw your comment about furtive and that's why I put them in my scum reads. Also I reread furtive's iso and yeah it's bad. Despite that, furtive will have to try harder if he wants to get voted out on D1/D2 because he has stiff competition from Princess and Gamma.

the post u linked looked like a joke

He was serious though in the post that I linked to.

[Frogsterking]

I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta. I'm fine ending the day relatively early as this slot isn't flipping town.

VOTE: Gamma

I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but

four

separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now.

[Frogsterking]

The day is basically solved FMPOV provided there is enough support from the commuter players to get a Gamma flip. I think flipping anyone else D1 is suboptimal. I'm a little annoyed that I'm the townie getting piled on instead of Ranger when we have a pretty similar PoE but whatever I'll take it on the chin.

I'm just gloating randomly in the spoilers because I feel confident there are at least two scum in gamma + ythan/furtive/princess/maaaaybe mcmenno.

Spoiler:

I kind of skimmed the last few paegs I don't think frogsterking is looking that great here

VOTE: frogsterking

VOTE: Frogsterking
I think he’s scum here because his early “meta TR” evaporated fast after I defended Ythan, and I didn’t really notice any attempt to debate with me, so it seems clear his plan is to make anyone he thinks he can’t go toe-to-toe with a target.
There’s another player I have pinned as his partner but I’m keeping that close to the vest for now.

Here's the scum post from a previous game which Ythan's 62 pinged me for:

viewtopic.php?p=13548554#p13548554

Huh?? Are you talking about the capitalization?

Excuse me

I feel like the capitalization helped me to draw the connection and the underlying pattern is shade posted in the format of a question with feigned conviction.

Oh.

VOTE: Frogsterking

*beats chest*

RAWWWWRGRAAAH

I feel like I must be doing something right to get all these scummy votes on me.

I'm like mother goose and my early reads are the golden eggs.

You can call my wagon "Scum Hub: a place where scum can just be scum."

[Frogsterking]

Ehh MT I think you took a step backwards with your vote, I'm pretty sure that KT wasn't intending to shade my slot there and that your random vote on Gamma was actually on scum. KT has opened this way toward my slot as town before:

viewtopic.php?p=13516511#p13516511

Also, the answer to your question toward Gamma is that she isn't trying to sort my slot and the vote was made because we've been in this situation several times before and they just react this way when I call them out as scum. Gamma is definitely more methodical if I push them on accident when we're both town.

[Frogsterking]

Is it the defeated "you don't want to kill me" coming out so quickly, or the OMGUS read, or sum else

All of the above plus a few things lmao

I can quote to three games where Gamma and I were TvS and they made like identical posts in response to pressure, the most recent game being a few weeks ago and the oldest game being a couple years ago lol.

Also I noticed another thing Gamma said which I saw them do in their scum game from Lost.

[Frogsterking]

Okay so actually Kitty is calling tris town so I'm a bit confused now. It felt like an odd shade to me but actually reading it with tris as a townread it looks more like Kitty is entertaining an alternative theory here. My bad.

Good stuff! I'm pretty sure KT-you-me-tris are all town

[Frogsterking]

Lol

How good are you at feigning full solving the game as scum, as well as exerting control over it?

Frog describing himself as gloating and solved from his point of view, and so on is kinda my impression of town!Frog. He's one of those players that has a read on everyone. But I don't know how well Frog emulates this sort of excitement for solving as scum

Not really, no. I just completed a scum game recently:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89984&user_select[]=16233

Most of what I provide as scum is in the scum chat I think. For thread control in the past I focused on tinfoiling, bloating the thread with dumb discussions and then lurking out once I draw too much heat. I find it a bit overwhelming to actually attempt to imitate my town game as scum.

[Frogsterking]

I dunno if csf is town tho

Me neither

I think both gamma and frog are town

Prove me wrong

I will

Using reason will not usually help you correctly determine frog's alignment ime

'Bruh'..

on that note actually, i'd like to hear frog's response to princess's arguments in there.

My eyes glazed over while reading them. It's definitely similar to how I've seen wrongly accused town behave but I want to see if they actually do anything after I give them space or if it's just an act to get people to townread them. I don't think they've actually said anything which is AI for town yet.

[Frogsterking]

What about the other like three games where you used reasoning to correctly deduce my alignment?

[Frogsterking]

Both of you sucked at convincing me

That's a good sign for your alignment because whenever I catch scum D1 there is always at least one townie who goes "PRETTY MEH CASE IF YOU ASK ME"

PEdit

I think Quiet Owl might be town

[Frogsterking]

Both of you sucked at convincing me

That's a good sign for your alignment because whenever I catch scum D1 there is always at least one townie who goes "PRETTY MEH CASE IF YOU ASK ME"

PEdit

I think Quiet Owl might be town

Also I haven't posted my case on Gamma yet, so I still have a chance.

[Frogsterking]

PRETTY MEH CASE IF YOU ASK ME

Have you and GeorgeBailey played a lot together?

[Frogsterking]

I think we've played more survivor together than mafia

Is there like some rivalry which might cause you to switch up your game here?

I was asking because of 165. I was wondering if you were playing scum in some way George has seen before, because you aren't playing in a way I've seen before but you've also been playing for a long time.

[Frogsterking]

frogster y r those votes scummy.

The McMennon vote is basically a naked vote and the Yrhan and Gamma votes are poorly explained reactions to my FoS on them. I think voting a player who suspects you and providing some made up reasoning is pretty common level 0 scum play.

[Frogsterking]

Realistic chance this is a brand of meta manipualtion. "No look guys THIS is how I play as scum. Therefore, I am NOT scum.". This one doesn't care for meta analysis but it just thought this was worth pointing out. Detailing ways you would've/could've did things as scum but didn't feels itself a smidge scummy in an abstract sense.

And is this a take that you actually have or are you just shading my slot because I put you in my solve? You were in that game I linked to and you recognized my scum play there immediately. What exactly do you think I am not being truthful about considering you have first hand experience?

[Frogsterking]

Because you can just. Lie?

...you were in that game and you easily saw through my fake scum solving, which is primarily what MT was asking. Also, I literally did the things that I claimed (tinfoil, thread bloat, lurk:)

Spoiler:

ii played a game with him, read another game with him. if i understood his mind i would share it better with you. If i gave you a generic profile i would say expect him to go back and forth very fast and be very invested into reads one moment and then move just as quickly to something else, and that his reasoning and logic are very hard to tract often.

I would say maybe best way to find him to be town because i haven't seen his scum game is probably his lack of care of how he is perceived and this early game interactions def gives me feeling he is caring how he looks. idk too early to tell. Early gut scum feels.

This is a bald-faced freaking lie. Fire knows exactly what my scum game looks like: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=88946

VOTE: Firebringer

Which game was that. I don't think ive played scum in like half a year and def don't remember u being my teammate

what do you know we did play scum together.
its all coming back to me. your scum game really was bad if memory serves me right in that

Also that game was february this year. I don't know if i would call it recent although i think that was literally my last scum game so i should have remembered it enough to remember you were my teammate. You got elimmed pretty early in that game though and I didn't even read your posts that much now that you reminded me of it. Would need to go back and read the game because my impression was it was pretty bad.

I don't see how that game anyway takes u out of ur scum game here because i would hope u improved since then.

wait frogster, quick sanity check for me.
do u seriously believe this about me lying to grib about our past in order to....hide our history or something and this is scum motivated.

Cause honestly i thought this was another thing to just push more pointless conversation forward as you desperately seem like you want to just have people engage.

VOTE: Thestatusquo

It’s frustrating to feel like I have the only concrete reason to be voting anyone, whereas the votes on me are

- Frog, because of some psychological bullshit
- Enchant, who is bad
- Aisa, because lol mechanics

Ok, I’ll say it. Frog is strategically lurking. I’ve never played with him before but his personality type doesn’t really mesh with “give up” as a villager.

Spoiler: Frog meta

Okay, now you feel almost too scummy to be scum.

Will you tell me about your playstyle? How you tend to handle the early- mid-, and late-game? Why do people who don't know you typically scumread you, and if someone had experience with you, what would they think of your posts so far?

Sorry for the rapid-fire questions, but you intrigue me.

Aside from the questions these are all the usual beats of a townie trying really hard to sort my slot. I've been described as too-scummy-to-be-scum sounding a lot. Like, a lot.

For your questions, I have very good reads early and hit scum D1 a lot. I mostly ask questions, set up a PoE and analyze isos. So my early play is very competent. Actually, I think my early game is very good.

The problem is that other than that I tend to play pretty bad.

I'd describe my mid game (or even immediately after setting up a PoE) play as: I freak out and go on tilt and throw the game.

I think my endgame play is messy too because I can figure out who did it by then but my tilt/paranoia/tinfoil are bad for closing out games.

My adaptation recently has been to try and play to my strengths and call multiple scum D1 and push one of them through so I get killed N1 and aren't around to throw the game later.

As for why I think I'm constantly scum read by tone, I have a theory that people who are introverted (low happiness, low assertiveness), neurotic (in my case anxious, angry, vulnerable) and very disagreeable (competitive, suspicious of others) are likely to be scum read by tone when Town. I mostly believe this because I realized that other players who have a similar temperament are frequently getting pushed as scum by strangers in their games as well.

Now with that said, what about you, Grib? What is your playstyle like in the early, mid and late game, and do you often get scum read for your tone as Town?

There is a very obvious lack of tilt here, or passion, or urgency. If Frog is town here.

Oops.

I was gonna say “if Frog is town here, I’m slapping my next vote on NM and calling it a day” but that seemed too bitchy so I backspaced. Didn’t backspace far enough.

Anyway, he knows there’s no world where we kill anyone -he- wants us to kill this phase. So he’s eliminating any further incriminating interactions.

In my opinion.

Like you are claiming that my response to MT is scummy because of abstract reasoning, but the claims that I made to her about my scum play are easily verifiable and consistent with how I actually approach the game as scum.

You were literally in the dead PT typing in all caps how I was obv scum and town should kill me. Here are the links of you stating this:

viewtopic.php?p=13539112#p13539112

viewtopic.php?p=13548417#p13548417

viewtopic.php?p=13550164#p13550164

MT asked me if I'm good at faking solving as scum and explained that I wasn't, and I explained what I think I am good at, and so I'm curious which of my statements you actually think I was lying about considering my answer is congruent with your own experiences playing with scum!frog?

[Frogsterking]

But in all actual seriousness it still really isn't a giant gotcha scumread or whatever. Just a point this one wanted to make.

Why did you choose to make that point though instead of addressing Tweet's question or my response directly? You're one of few players in this game who has actually played a recent game with scum!frog and you avoided making any meaningful contribution at all.

[Frogsterking]

Saying you're town because you aren't doing any of this is.

I didn't say that in my answer to Tweet though? I just like answered their question truthfully? Why are you pretending like you can't understand this?

[Frogsterking]

because this one answered the one question Tweet asked it, and obviously responded to you too.

You didn't answer their question in any meaningful way which provided new information.

Here look:

Realistic chance this is a brand of meta manipualtion. "No look guys THIS is how I play as scum. Therefore, I am NOT scum.". This one doesn't care for meta analysis but it just thought this was worth pointing out. Detailing ways you would've/could've did things as scum but didn't feels itself a smidge scummy in an abstract sense.

Why are you being vague like you have no idea how I play? You're just framing my answer to Tweet in the worst possible light and pretending like it's moving the game forward.

[Frogsterking]

Your play has been... interesting so far, but this one honestly isn't super sure what to think of you in terms of alignment.

I mean this is just easy to work with because now not only are you shading me, you're also being wishy washy and refusing to commit to a read on my slot.

[Frogsterking]

Yrhan and Gamma votes are poorly explained reactions to my FoS on them.

Show me where you drew this conclusion.

viewtopic.php?p=13587973&user_select%5B ... #p13587973

[Frogsterking]

If I get a chance I'll post an updated reads list and if I have more than time I'll post my meta case on Gamma.

I also did some research on Ythan's meta and I could post the cliff notes of that I guess if I just have oodles of time. My main takeaway from Ythan past games is that they are a very capable player as both alignments and are grossly underperforming this game, not only how they have previously played as Town but also how they have previously played as scum, which makes me suspect Ythan might be 3rd party who wants to fly under the radar.

Off the top of my head for my reads list I liked the first posts from imaginality and quiet owl for +town. Also, I thought my interaction with Dragons today was +town.

*Pedit also 249 I think is +town.

I think we've played more survivor together than mafia

Is there like some rivalry which might cause you to switch up your game here?

I was asking because of 165. I was wondering if you were playing scum in some way George has seen before, because you aren't playing in a way I've seen before but you've also been playing for a long time.

No I got no clue why he called me out like that

George? Can you elaborate on 165?

Yeah enjoy rope lol.

From who, you? Ythan, the little 3rd party? You couldn't even give a straight answer to Tweet or tris about why you voted me or how you read Gamma/McMenno. What do you expect to accomplish all alone?

I guess we should invent new jargon "3rd party bravado." The wiki page for "3rd party bravado" will look like this:

3rd Party Bravado

Definition:

Yeah enjoy rope lol.

__

PEdit:

This one thinks we've both kind of lost the plot here. So again, slowly this time:

Okay thank you for clarifying, 249 does make sense to me overall as a town mindset, and I think attempting to clarify is probably +town.

[Frogsterking]

I also did some research on Ythan's meta and I could post the cliff notes of that I guess if I just have oodles of time. My main takeaway from Ythan past games is that they are a very capable player as both alignments and are grossly underperforming this game, not only how they have previously played as Town but also how they have previously played as scum, which makes me suspect Ythan might be 3rd party who wants to fly under the radar.

Lol tf

Show me your work.

viewtopic.php?p=12952354&user_select%5B ... #p12952354

Nice scum hunting..and high word count..and engagement..passion..very much like yo*cough cough* very much like your play this game.

Also, with regards to your reaction in 252:

The "lol" defence (+1.0)

Claiming that whatever elaborate or spot-on case you made on them was hilarious. This may sound more like garden variety scumminess, but it's a fairly strong tell and should warrant a vote every time.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29

__

Elements replaces andrée.

vote count coming shortly!

Hey Elements, I'm actually town this game. I think you replaced into a town slot but I'm not like super sure. Please vote Gamma.

[Frogsterking]

In case anyone is getting burned out trying to read the thread just skip Gamma's posts, they're all intentionally full of shit to waste your time.

What do you mean by 'underperforming'?

Scum hunting, engaging, making posts with more than like five words, having actual reads on the game that they can explain without pretending like they can't understand the question (190, 204)

Gamma became more townie after page 7.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I threw up in my mouth. KT my read here is that you're tired but wanted to play so you skimmed the thread, jumped to this conclusion about Gamma, voted me and then went to bed.

[Frogsterking]

Mostly on vibes

That's what you get for sorting this way, then.

but also I don't think your push has much substance behind it.

I haven't referenced any examples yet for my meta read so this explanation makes sense to me.

[Frogsterking]

imaginality just feels rough and ingenuine

Oh so this game started... just had a skim so far...

feels scummy

Frogsterking seems to almost be trying to 1v1 vs Gamma. Seems risky if scum? Doesn't mean he's correct though. I want to know more about these meta reasons for scum reading Gamma.

feels like an observation scum would make instead of a genuine town observation

the second post isn't much better

my one fear is im picking up on tonal stuff that might just be playstyle and i'm not 100% convinced but for now i like my read and i'd love to see more pressure there.

I agree. I was thinking that scum!imaginality knows I'm right about scum!gamma so he plays the "I actually think Gamma could be scum here" card, followed by the "gee I'm not sure card" and the "oh yeah remember how csf said they could BOTH be scum" card etc.

Makes me think imaginality's scum flip will spew csf as town, or, if multiball, unaligned with Gamma and imaginality.

@all

Also: I hate every single one of you for townreading Gamma for absolutely shit reasons, and you all deserve to lose (and probably will) for not backing me up.

VOTE: imaginality

My reads have shifted a little bit:

Csf goes to town/unaligned with gamma+imaginality (assuming imaginality flips same faction as gamma)
Dragons moves up to lock town
Imaginality drops to scum
Ythan I'm tempted to lock as 3rd party because I don't think they're town and I'm not convinced they're aligned with gamma+imaginality either

[Frogsterking]

@all Also: I hate every single one of you for townreading Gamma for absolutely shit reasons, and you all deserve to lose (and probably will) for not backing me up.

It's your job to make a good case not to throw a fit.

I agree with this completely and I also stand by my sentiment that the existing town reads on Gamma show a lack of critical thinking.

[Frogsterking]

It would be pretty funny if Ranger is scum and just posting bare reads list as a scum strat. The main reason I don't think that is because I agree with almost every single one of their placements. The main difference I noticed in reads was quiet owl. Do you think I got schmoozed earlier by quiet owl, ranger?

@all Also: I hate every single one of you for townreading Gamma for absolutely shit reasons, and you all deserve to lose (and probably will) for not backing me up.

It's your job to make a good case not to throw a fit.

I agree with this completely and I also stand by my sentiment that the existing town reads on Gamma show a lack of critical thinking.

If you'll point out which I'll humor you for a bit.

KT stands out for sure (308.) I also think there is an element of AtE to it (309, 310.) To clarify though I do think KT can do critical thinking well, I'm saying that I don't think in this one example that those are good reasons. In fact those are things worth scumreading for imo.

In answering your question I realized most players who townread gamma haven't actually explained why.

Hi, friendly mod reminder that while mafia is a game that can get heated, please refrain from making personal attacks of any sort. Thank y’all. <3

I want to take a different direction, can players who townread Gamma-I'm thinking csf and dragons especially-explain why you townread Gamma? I have ideas about why, but I'd rather give you a chance to explain.

PEdit

I'm getting major scum pings from Titus right now. 379 needs some explaining.

[Frogsterking]

So what do you feel she's not responding to?

It’s not quite like that
I suggest you ISO her

This is theater I think

[Frogsterking]

In my head, gamma-imagination-titus-quiet owl is a logical team solve.

[Frogsterking]

So what do you feel she's not responding to?

It’s not quite like that
I suggest you ISO her

Isn't your whole point that CSF is selectively responding though? How would reading her ISO help?

Also, Frogsterking failed my test. Frogsterking gets a certain level of annoyed when I'm cagey as town and instead, he's looking to discredit.

1) you outted a lot more reads than usual in 379 so you haven't really been cagey

2) in 389 I asked you to explain your reads almost immediately after I see your posts

3) in 357 an authority figure issues a general warning so it makes sense I would be keeping my anger in check

4) I'm not sure what would cause you to terminate your reaction test now. You already had my attention in 389, why not stall and see what I do?

You are really being the opposite of cagey both by having multiple scum reads in 379 and revealing your plans now.

[Frogsterking]

{Lycanfire}

I missed this placement the first time too. I can definitely see myself getting schmoozed out of a good RVS read by this lycan.

'Bruh'..

My wording was probably imprecise. To be clear, the reasoning you use to push people and how you arrive at reads can be unusual, which makes you liable to be read as scummy. I don't think the reason behind Ythan's vote, for instance, is an actual scum tell for you.

Thank you for clarifying, that is really different imo

[Frogsterking]

Do I need to explain why imaginality's last two posts are scummy? Even knowing nothing about the player I feel comfortable putting them on a similar place in my PoE as Gamma which is basically conf scum.

@Titus

I'm expecting a response to 404.

in large normal 242 he was town, and by all accounts pushy enough, but didn't seem to resort to this kind of AtE.

I was a UTR in large normal 242 so it makes sense I would become frustrated faster in this game than in that one. I'm not sure how much of that game you read because I became pretty frustrated when I was unable to get Pooky eliminated D2. I recall telling town that I was done with them for a little while and ghosting the thread for a couple of days after town massclaimed for no reason (and still wouldn't vote Pooky) on D2.

@frogster do you usually say you hate everyone for not following you on a read?

That's a really loaded question: no, I doubt I've technically used those words before, and yes, I've become angry and heated in almost every single one of my town games and have lashed out in a wide variety of ways at every level of intensity from a fleeting spark to a smoldering ember to the raging inferno of the sun:

viewtopic.php?p=13465206&f=2#p13465206

I don't think there's any reason to consider the line AI one way or the other. The anger is more suggestive of my town game but it's an easy line to fake. I feel like this kind of exploration will help you become more familiar with me as a player but I'm skeptical you'll be able to reach any kind of closure from it on my alignment.

AtE is something that actually seems to trip up frogster.

What does this mean?

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).

like how fucking easy is it for scum to come up with this bullshit

I thought the narrative "frog is scum who gave up on pushing Gamma and switched to me" was pretty level -1. It's pretty clear they switched to me because I'm the competing wagon. Had I not switched off of Gamma earlier then you can just as easily write "frog is scum who is pretending to death tunnel Gamma" as an excuse to bandwagon me. Without context why they think my read is disingenuous then it's just a lazy, clichè take followed by a naked vote. I'm glad it's a scum slot pushing this narrative rather than a town one.

[Frogsterking]

@Titus I'm expecting a response to 404.

@Titus

396

[Frogsterking]

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).

like how fucking easy is it for scum to come up with this bullshit

I thought the narrative "frog is scum who gave up on pushing Gamma and switched to me" was pretty level -1. It's pretty clear they switched to me because I'm the competing wagon. Had I not switched off of Gamma earlier then you can just as easily write "frog is scum who is pretending to death tunnel Gamma" as an excuse to bandwagon me. Without context why they think my read is disingenuous then it's just a lazy, clichè take followed by a naked vote. I'm glad it's a scum slot pushing this narrative rather than a town one.

I don't understand why imaginality's lazy scum posts stand out to you while at the same time this stuff gets passed over:

Frog meta stuff aside, this one is wondering where tapiocaphobe and Vaxkiller are, and where Ranger went.

I like this

y?

Good breadth of interest

This game feels weird as hell

She's just inflating her post count so it looks like she's being actively engaged with the game.

[Frogsterking]

Define lazily. I'm going to push you because you're straight up wrong. I'm going to figure out your issue StD and set you correctly.

tf are you saying here

This is really forced distancing. There is no reason to believe there is any existing tension between Gamma and Titus.

[Frogsterking]

Define lazily. I'm going to push you because you're straight up wrong. I'm going to figure out your issue StD and set you correctly.

tf are you saying here

I'm saying StD is 100% wrong and trying. So I'm going to show him he's wrong and get him pointed in the right direction, even if I am not 100% sure where it is myself.

This is just arguing for the sake of arguing because Gamma and Titus "don't want to look associated" despite currently coordinating their votes together to keep my wagon on life support.

[Frogsterking]

So what do you feel she's not responding to?

It’s not quite like that
I suggest you ISO her

Isn't your whole point that CSF is selectively responding though? How would reading her ISO help?

Also, Frogsterking failed my test. Frogsterking gets a certain level of annoyed when I'm cagey as town and instead, he's looking to discredit.

1) you outted a lot more reads than usual in 379 so you haven't really been cagey

2) in 389 I asked you to explain your reads almost immediately after I see your posts

3) in 357 an authority figure issues a general warning so it makes sense I would be keeping my anger in check

4) I'm not sure what would cause you to terminate your reaction test now. You already had my attention in 389, why not stall and see what I do?

You are really being the opposite of cagey both by having multiple scum reads in 379 and revealing your plans now.

Not what I'm looking for tonally. Sorry.

Reads list supposing imaginality is town.

Welp that was faster than I thought

This is just as good as ignoring 396 entirely because you aren't addressing anything I said in any meaningful way. You obviously have time to write a meaningful response because you're still active in the thread executing your shitty "distancing" with Gamma and writing more non-answers to Dragons. I don't know what "tone" you're pretending to look for right now because it's pretty obvious I think your answers are useless.

[Frogsterking]

Define lazily. I'm going to push you because you're straight up wrong. I'm going to figure out your issue StD and set you correctly.

tf are you saying here

I'm saying StD is 100% wrong and trying. So I'm going to show him he's wrong and get him pointed in the right direction, even if I am not 100% sure where it is myself.

Why do you townread imaginality so hard? I feel like he’s suspicious but I don’t vibe with how the wagon on him formed.

Take an idea. How could I?

Hmm. I get the message.

Nice forced, fake-looking conclusion to a forced, fake-looking argument which went absolutely nowhere.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: elements

[Frogsterking]

Define lazily. I'm going to push you because you're straight up wrong. I'm going to figure out your issue StD and set you correctly.

tf are you saying here

I'm saying StD is 100% wrong and trying. So I'm going to show him he's wrong and get him pointed in the right direction, even if I am not 100% sure where it is myself.

Why do you townread imaginality so hard? I feel like he’s suspicious but I don’t vibe with how the wagon on him formed.

Take an idea. How could I?

Hmm. I get the message.

Nice forced, fake-looking conclusion to a forced, fake-looking argument which went absolutely nowhere.

Are you both going to pretend like I didn't read your SvS interaction like the back of my hand?

[Frogsterking]

im townreading gamma now this is epic

McMenno moved to town lean for me based on pre flip associations with Gamma.

[Frogsterking]

Went back to this post and it's... interesting. Says "Haha, what if Ranger is scum? Anyways, I agree with her.", calls out a non-existent AtE on KT as 309 and 310 are unrelated to why he actually townreads Gamma, and calls Titus's scum pair reads scummy because...? He calls KT's reasons for townreading Gamma worth scumreading in the same post, has been pushing and scumreading Ythan, and again points out the possibility of a scum Ranger, which all together kinda gives this an OMGUS feel considering he's the last person in those reads. This one agrees Titus explaining her scumreads would be nice, but the scumreads themselves being scummy? Not so sure.

It would be helpful if Town (?) stops tinfoiling a scum motivation into isolated comments they find from my iso.

[Frogsterking]

I'm not sure what the scum motivation you're supposedly seeing is either. If you are suggesting I may secretly be trying to sabotage Ranger then by golly you must think I am an awful scum player.

[Frogsterking]

Dear lord, Gamma and Elements interaction looks forced too.

Elements, instead of engaging Gamma in a strange dialogue where Gamma pretends like they're trying to convince you to vote them, can you provide some reassurance that your imaginify FoS is real and it's just serendipitous that you naked voted imaginify as soon as the town core moved off of them and onto you?

[Frogsterking]

and the wagon on them happening so fast and in the way it did spooks me.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah, let's make sure to townlock imaginify because it's really sus how in a 23 person game, a few UTRs moved their votes onto imaginify after imaginify made a series of scummy posts. Nice one.

[Frogsterking]

My vote wasn't a response to the "town core" voting me

Talk about why you scum read imaginify then.

[Frogsterking]

Dear lord, Gamma and Elements interaction looks forced too.

You think it's scum theatre?

I'm not sure yet, it's definitely theater on Gamma's end, but it kinda looks like you and Gamma are trying to make the imaginify wagon seem like ass.

[Frogsterking]

I think it's quite possible imaginify isn't that invested in the game atm and that's why their posts read the way they do

I don't.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah, let's make sure to townlock imaginify because it's really sus how in a 23 person game, a few UTRs moved their votes onto imaginify after imaginify made a series of scummy posts. Nice one.

I don't understand what this is a response to

Oops I missed the quote:

I’m not gonna feel good about a wagon where people I suspect are frontloaded on it

Do you think imaginify is town?

At this point, yes. My initial reasoning to suspect them wasn’t ironclad, and the wagon on them happening so fast and in the way it did spooks me.

Yeah, let's make sure to townlock imaginify because it's really sus how in a 23 person game, a few UTRs moved their votes onto imaginify after imaginify made a series of scummy posts. Nice one.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: imaginify

VOTE: imaginify

I’d rather you vote me.

Why?

UNVOTE: Elements

The way Titus (502) and Gamma are engaging the thread right now kinda makes me think Gamma saw Elements vote and decided to capitalize on it. 481 is such an awkward statement and one that Elements is so likely to respond to that I think it makes more sense Gamma was baiting Elements with 481 to draw them into a damning interaction that will look bad after Gamma flips. The comment "oh gee look how fast the imaginify wagon is moving" right after Elements voted makes way more sense if Gamma and Elements aren't associated.

[Frogsterking]

im townreading gamma now this is epic

McMenno moved to town lean for me based on pre flip associations with Gamma.

that's about the worst way to read people

You're wrong, it's one of the best, and you should improve at the game before you decide which methods you will apply and which you will reject.

[Frogsterking]

well I'm loving the confidence at least

Thanks

[Frogsterking]

Worth mentioning in relation to Gamma asking to be voted/limmed:

Gonna give y’all a little tip: you might not want to kill me.

I realized the exact reason why this push reeks of bullshit: it’s the same crock of shit Krazy used to pull against me. This sort of “scum!Gamma always reacts this way” comment is one I’m well-acquainted with, and one that imo ensures one of us is scum. So I think today’s vote absolutely SHOULD be between me and Frogsterking.

It’s still not wise to vote me out, unless you want a lot of deaths really fast.

I really am not scared in the slightest and I think softing TPR is about the scummiest thing she could have done. The way she did it is an element of her scum game I have seen before which I will be going over in my meta case on Gamma. By the way, I will be referencing 6 completed games I have played with Gamma instead of 4 (402) because I decided it would be savvy to include counter-examples from my games with Town!Gamma of what I haven't seen from them here.

I think a better reason to not vote Gamma out today is that they are posting so much in the thread they will be a gold mine for associative tells come end game, so it's more efficient to try and hit a low-poster scum D1 and maybe D2.

[Frogsterking]

Oh sorry, your post went over my head Princess, I missed your point that Gamma both claimed TPR and then asked to be voted later. I guess my own point about the soft being scummy and it being better to vote them out later still stand, except you are two steps ahead of me.

[Frogsterking]

Hey, nothing about scum motive or sabotaging Ranger. This one just wants to know what's up, especially with the Titus point here. What exactly about 379 is scummy to you?

I think that, with the exception of Ythan*, in 379 Titus scum read players who are solvey, which is a scum tell:

Trying to discredit obvtown people for bad reasons

This one is pretty obvious; the mafia can only win by keeping the suspect pool as large as possible and steer town away from themselves and their partners. They really hate townies who're never getting lynched, and they will do their best to get rid of them, even during the day.

Be careful when applying this tell too generously, especially at LYLO. Running out of mislynches creates a feeling of nervousness and panic in townies, and someone who's appeared dangerous to scum but somehow is still breathing can become a giant paranoia magnet. Of course the scum can also rely on that.

Some scum players are also exceptionally good and can look very convincingly town. This tell only applies when it's accompanied by bad reasoning.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29

In summary, I think 379 is objectively scummy because myself, Ranger and KT are all findable as Town at least for D1 standards.

There is more to it than that though.

In addition to Titus choosing to scum read three findable town reads-as far as D1 goes-with no explanation for 2 of them and an awful explanation for 1 of them (Ranger), having lots of D1 scum reads is uncharacteristic for Town!Titus, and even outside of meta can be an objective scum tell in some contexts:

Too many (or too few) null and scum reads

The mafia have vested interest in spreading paranoia and suspicion, but most of the time they also know all the innocents and thus are more certain in their reads (and can spot towntells that others can't).

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B0.5.29

I think 379 demonstrates a fear of posting in the thread, because it appears to me as though Titus felt a need to look like they have been privately solving the game by outting lots of scum reads before they felt comfortable engaging with any players.

On a final note, in LOST, Town!Titus lurked D1, had no reads and bandwagoned me with the only explanation being that "frog flip would be good for vca." I actually was anticipating that town!titus might play similar here and lurk for a while then bandwagon me because it would be "good info", drawing negative attention to themselves in the process. The fact in 379 they started to deviate from this and any other variations AFAIK of their D1 play drew my attention to them, but I do believe that 379 is intrinsically scummy and doesn't require meta to sort.

Does that answer your question about why 379 pinged me as suspicious?

*As far as associatives go, I think Titus is pretty conscious of 3-in-1 (392), and I think Titus is not aligned with any players in 379 including Ythan. In fact, I believe Titus FoSed Ythan specifically because they view Ythan as a LHF slot who would be good to plant an associative tell on. Despite being unaligned with Titus, I don't believe Ythan is Town, I believe Ythan is probaby a third party, which I explained in 250.

[Frogsterking]

That makes much more sense

It really doesn’t
I don’t see who aside from Fenrir out of the imaginality votes is UTR

it makes more sense as a response to that post

Ranger, tris, csf

[Frogsterking]

For me:

UTR = Universal Town Read

I think I'll stop using that acronym though because it's confusing with Under The Radar being relevant and a "UTR" too.

__

Lycan, I don't understand exactly which post you mean because you didn't quote it or link it. (532)

I'm not going to stop with the quoting because between making players confused because they don't understand what I'm referring to (504) and annoying players by increasing the scroll time, I choose being annoying over being confusing. What I will do is start putting self/long/chain quotes in spoiler tags so it's easier to scroll past and I'll give preferential treatment to using post links.

__

Merry Christmas to everyone who celebrates!

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: elements

Why, after taking another shot at Gamma immediately before?

I thought Dragons was reaction testing both Elements and Titus, because Titus had recently posted, so presumably they would see the vote. I wanted to back him up and also I wanted to see how Gamma reacted, because Gamma had recently posted as well.

[Frogsterking]

If Titus and Imaginality are really masons then I want to look at players who disappeared and had their votes parked on a vanity wagon during the time period frog and imaginality were the leading wagons. The player who stands out to me the most for doing this is George? Maybe lycan?

If I take Titus claim at face value then I think the Ranger wagon is unwise because it seems like we can now deduce this is a game where Town organized itself into two competing town cores who have been trying to kill each other.

[Frogsterking]

George

Spoiler:

VOTE: imaginality

{Save The Dragons}

How did you get this from StD's posts?

Gamma

Spoiler:

@furtive

what do you make of the current gamestate?

Quite chaotic. This is the largest game I've played in (from the start) and I think the usually underrated art of sheeping will be very important, otherwise Mafia could really run riot.

With this in mind,

VOTE: imaginality

What makes you choose to sheep Fenrir specifically?

Elements

Spoiler:

I think it's quite possible imaginify isn't that invested in the game atm and that's why their posts read the way they do

Potential TMI tells on imaginality

[Frogsterking]

Lots of TMI from Gamma regarding imaginality:

Spoiler:

Define lazily. I'm going to push you because you're straight up wrong. I'm going to figure out your issue StD and set you correctly.

tf are you saying here

I'm saying StD is 100% wrong and trying. So I'm going to show him he's wrong and get him pointed in the right direction, even if I am not 100% sure where it is myself.

Why do you townread imaginality so hard? I feel like he’s suspicious but I don’t vibe with how the wagon on him formed.

I’m not gonna feel good about a wagon where people I suspect are frontloaded on it

I’m not gonna feel good about a wagon where people I suspect are frontloaded on it

Do you think imaginify is town?

At this point, yes. My initial reasoning to suspect them wasn’t ironclad, and the wagon on them happening so fast and in the way it did spooks me.

What I'm more curious about is whether or not Elements and Gamma are aligned after all:

Spoiler:

VOTE: titus
greetings

btw I like andree already, it seems town

VOTE: imaginify

I’d rather you vote me.

516 from me may have been some game losing analysis if not for Titus + imaginality's claim. I now think it's dangerous to assume that Gamma and Elements are unaligned.

__

@Titus

Is there any VCA reason to rule out Gamma-Elements-George are all group scum?

__

VOTE: George

This slots disappearance between 29 and 165 sits out the formation of my wagon as well as imaginality's wagon. I haven't checked what was going down when George disappeared again between 165 and 559, but my theory is that the leading wagons during that period of time were town, and George is scum who fell behind on the game and is too self-conscious to get in character now. During all of this time George had his vote parked on tris.

PEdit:

y'know what i think the imaginality wagon is downright suspicious.
VOTE: Ranger but also a reminder to future owl: remember cat scratch and lycanfire.

Is there a reason that you believe scum were motivated to get involved with the imaginality wagon rather than white knight them or lurk out while town kills itself?

[Frogsterking]

@all

I have three slots that need to be seriously considered as candidates for the D1 lim: Ythan, furtive and George.

VOTE: furtive

I'm switching my vote from George to furtive in order to (hopefully) consolidate with tris, who I want for the town core. I want to rewind things back to this moment:

Spoiler:

btw, i voted for furtiveglance because they said they wanted real time interaction and then disappeared.

---

is no one interested in voting furtive wif me?

@Quiet Owl

if you're looking for a scum who wagoned imaginality, can I suggest you take a serious look at furtiveglance?

4 players voting for Frogsterking (McMenno, Ythan, KittyTacky, imaginality)

Based on what I've been taught about "wagonomics", I should be anticipating that I have 1 scum who is still vote parked on my wagon. I think these four players can be narrowed down to just McMenno and Ythan. Comparing their isos, I think Ythan's iso is significantly worse than McMenno's.

Redirecting attention onto furtive and Ythan reveals the intriguing possibility that the spoiler quotes are scum theater:

Spoiler:

Isn't the Hunger Games just Battle Royale?

This viewpoint is ignorant of Suzanne Collins' masterful writing

That looks like a lot of words to justify a non committal vote.

It's one sentence to explain a committed vote

It's the entirety of your post. Is your response to split that hair?

My post was quite short, to explain moving my vote.

You then took issue with it.

And now we're talking about nothing.

What is your read on imaginality?

I'm not talking about nothing I'm talking about you overjustifying a non committal vote.

Imaginality is fine so far besides mixing up Gamma and I which in isolation whatever. Want to see more.

Non-comittal? My vote is as serious as most other votes for where we are in the game.

And yeah I could have just voted but that's not really my style

I'm not talking about nothing I'm talking about you overjustifying a non committal vote.

Imaginality is fine so far besides mixing up Gamma and I which in isolation whatever. Want to see more.

Non-comittal? My vote is as serious as most other votes for where we are in the game.

And yeah I could have just voted but that's not really my style

You put too much effort into telling us it was non committal that's the problem.

Non committal is a phrase you used which I never implied.

I implied it was based more on following a townread's vote than a scumread I have. That doesn't mean it's not committal.

I'm not talking about nothing I'm talking about you overjustifying a non committal vote.

Imaginality is fine so far besides mixing up Gamma and I which in isolation whatever. Want to see more.

Non-comittal? My vote is as serious as most other votes for where we are in the game.

And yeah I could have just voted but that's not really my style

You put too much effort into telling us it was non committal that's the problem.

Non committal is a phrase you used which I never implied.

I implied it was based more on following a townread's vote than a scumread I have. That doesn't mean it's not committal.

Implying it is actually what you did do, what you didn't do is say it explicitly.

I'm going to stop responding to you about this particular debate now.

336 by the way is another TMI tell regarding Imaginality, this time from Ythan. I think the mention of Gamma in 336 is conspicuous.

[Frogsterking]

I think Quiet Owl is town. Titus and Quiet Owl, do you townread each other?

[Frogsterking]

I think Quiet Owl is town. Titus and Quiet Owl, do you townread each other?

I'll do a look again supposing you're town. However, if you townread me and Owl, why not vote Ranger?

I think the size of this game has resulted in two separate townblocks who are currently trying to kill each other.

[Frogsterking]

I think Quiet Owl is town. Titus and Quiet Owl, do you townread each other?

I'll do a look again supposing you're town. However, if you townread me and Owl, why not vote Ranger?

I think the size of this game has resulted in two separate townblocks who are currently trying to kill each other.

Who is in which?

I'm trying to clarify that right now. I think Townblock B is dysfunctional and quickly imploded but has been resuscitated by your claim.

Town block A

Ranger
Dragons
KT
CSF
Tris

Town block B

Titus
Imaginality
MT
Quiet Owl
Frogster

The below players are scummy

and at least two (I predict three) are flipping scum:

George
Furtive
Ythan
Gamma
Elements

Townblock A and B don't have to work together or agree which of the 5 players above they want to kill, they just have to stop trying to kill each other.

Scum team is large (and/or divided into separate factions and 3rd parties) and in some of the AWOL slots. With the exception of Gamma and/or Ythan, the thread is dominated by Town voices, and much of scums power can be stripped away from them if we conceive better competing wagons.

Of the names I didn't list, I think that Princess is Town and maybe should be Towncore, lycan is a dark horse, and Enchant is null considering their play has transposed into their scum range over time.

[Frogsterking]

Titus, you aren't really a mason are you?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Titus

nono i think i am not explaining well

i am not suggesting that we massclaim nor that it is a good idea or anything,

i am simply asking what others think is the mechanical ‘punishment’ for it or whatever

like if there is a warning for it ending poorly there would be a reason for this, yes?

so i wonder what others think that reason is

@Tris

Spoiler:

@tris

can I get your three strongest townreads and scumreads aorn?

Can you talk about your SRs? Why not Ranger? Frogster?

i dont know what to think about frog, i haven't thought about ranger properly. i can if u want

Tris, you realize they're both phishing you here, right? They want to find out why I wrote these posts:

Spoiler:

That makes much more sense

It really doesn’t
I don’t see who aside from Fenrir out of the imaginality votes is UTR

it makes more sense as a response to that post

Ranger, tris, csf

I'm switching my vote from George to furtive in order to (hopefully) consolidate with tris, who I want for the town core. I want to rewind things back to this moment:

__

Ythan - weak town
GeorgeBailey - weak town
Enchant - moderate town

Really fake and unnatural sorting.

furtiveglance - actual null, and I hate that but gtmh town bc frog wants it

I think that this is TMI that furtive is town, or at least not aligned with Titus.

(Yes, Titus and imaginality on near-opposite sides. Titus wouldn't pull this maneuver with a scumbuddy, and I believe she's almost always town from it. So, Titus is nearly certainly town for the claim. imaginality is not because no matter what Titus says, she and imaginality are not actually masons and I feel imaginality is scum exploiting Titus's earnest belief their roles make him town.)

You should be careful because you are reacting emotionally to Titus but she isn't reacting emotionally to you. I don't think you should assume that Titus' goal behind claiming mason was to save imaginality, I think Titus claimed mason to exert some better control over the thread, yes, but also because she is looking for something.

__

[Frogsterking]

Hmm interesting, I'll consider that

Why would you consider that, of all things? How have I not shown frustration lmao?

[Frogsterking]

Do you think there might be loved or hated going round with this many players?

Possibly. Frogsterking still didn't give the tonal read when he suspected I was town supposedly. Frogsterking is scum. Scum with Ranger. I have 75% odds on that.

Idk how much of the game you read when you joined but I think frog feels substantially different this game than he did in the normal you replaced in as scum with frog

Every single time Frog has been town, he has a certain level of frustration he gets with me everytime trying to sort me. He hasn't displayed an ounce of it. Instead, he's adapting his read to the environment on the board. He hasn't displayed it here.

If you actually believe this then I don't think you are understanding the tone in my posting at all. Also, I think that's silly to claim that I'm assuming positions based on the path of least resistance, I don't think anyone except for Ranger agrees that Gamma is scum and in an actual frog!scum titus!mason world then I would avoid your wagon like the plague.

[Frogsterking]

Do you think there might be loved or hated going round with this many players?

Possibly. Frogsterking still didn't give the tonal read when he suspected I was town supposedly. Frogsterking is scum. Scum with Ranger. I have 75% odds on that.

Idk how much of the game you read when you joined but I think frog feels substantially different this game than he did in the normal you replaced in as scum with frog

Every single time Frog has been town, he has a certain level of frustration he gets with me everytime trying to sort me. He hasn't displayed an ounce of it. Instead, he's adapting his read to the environment on the board. He hasn't displayed it here.

If you actually believe this then I don't think you are understanding the tone in my posting at all. Also, I think that's silly to claim that I'm assuming positions based on the path of least resistance, I don't think anyone except for Ranger agrees that Gamma is scum and in an actual frog!scum titus!mason world then I would avoid your wagon like the plague.

[Frogsterking]

You probably don't believe me but i do have readlist!

It's not just you as town and everyone else null is it?

[Frogsterking]

Fuck I wish I remembered to spoiler that quote in my double post.

[Frogsterking]

Titus, you aren't really a mason are you?

I am 100% functionally a mason. Neighbor with mod confirmation that my neighbor is town. Yes. That's a mason. Imaginality has the same thing.

Now, after I post my reads list and object to your theory, you just immediately vote me. You

still

[/u] won't say why you townread Ranger despite me asking.

Really fake and unnatural sorting.

Keep crying

All right, that's probably fair. Hope you had a good Christmas!

615 it may be fair but it doesn't make sense as an excuse as they've "engaged" the game this way on all days, not just Christmas.

[Frogsterking]

Hmm interesting, I'll consider that

Why would you consider that, of all things? How have I not shown frustration lmao?

Because I'm basing my read on you partly off meta that I know and now new meta has come to light that I was not aware of.
Why would I not consider it...

Because her argument is that it's in my town meta to become frustrated with her, which is what I've done, but she is arguing that I am scum.

[Frogsterking]

1) put forth a game which isn't true (trying to call people toen blocks that aren't)
2) voted me immediately afterwards, despite arguing my mason claim was real before

Things you and I both know I would be really unlikely do as scum.

693 just looks like a post I've already seen you write before as scum:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Masquerader Yellow

This is where my suspicions point me currently. I do not trust the way they took Purple's post out of context.

oh I thought this was just gonna be a regular game, huh

UNVOTE: Masquerader Yellow

Green doesn't want to appear aligned with yellow

, and yellow is an intruder; therefore I am deducing that the intruders are green and yellow. Olive was my red herring and teal was red's red herring.

Offer hand: Red

Offer hand: Olive

Offer hand: Blue

Offer hand: Teal

Offer hand: Magenta

Purple's first offer happens to be every player left alive in the game. That would be an odd coinicidence.

Their acceptance might be coordinated. Based on their own admissions

1) Purple did an about face on Olive.
2) Olive originally wanted to pair with red supposedly but changed his mind.
3) Purple wanted hard to identify people to pair with easy to identify people but currently rests on meta knowledge for Olive town.
4) Olive asks Purple to retract invites and Olive accepts 4 minutes later. The rationale is the thought process looked invitee.
5) The awkward you were right I was town.

VOTE: Purple/Olive

I think I want to see this through.

Scum!Titus is Red Masqué in the above quote and I am Purple Masqué who she is voting. Obviously.

[Frogsterking]

1) put forth a game which isn't true (trying to call people toen blocks that aren't)
2) voted me immediately afterwards, despite arguing my mason claim was real before

Things you and I both know I would be really unlikely do as scum.

693 just looks like a post I've already seen you write before as scum:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Masquerader Yellow

This is where my suspicions point me currently. I do not trust the way they took Purple's post out of context.

oh I thought this was just gonna be a regular game, huh

UNVOTE: Masquerader Yellow

Green doesn't want to appear aligned with yellow

, and yellow is an intruder; therefore I am deducing that the intruders are green and yellow. Olive was my red herring and teal was red's red herring.

Offer hand: Red

Offer hand: Olive

Offer hand: Blue

Offer hand: Teal

Offer hand: Magenta

Purple's first offer happens to be every player left alive in the game. That would be an odd coinicidence.

Their acceptance might be coordinated. Based on their own admissions

1) Purple did an about face on Olive.
2) Olive originally wanted to pair with red supposedly but changed his mind.
3) Purple wanted hard to identify people to pair with easy to identify people but currently rests on meta knowledge for Olive town.
4) Olive asks Purple to retract invites and Olive accepts 4 minutes later. The rationale is the thought process looked invitee.
5) The awkward you were right I was town.

VOTE: Purple/Olive

I think I want to see this through.

Scum!Titus is Red Masqué in the above quote and I am Purple Masqué who she is voting. Obviously.

[Frogsterking]

Scum!Titus:

Purple's first offer happens to be every player left alive in the game. That would be an odd coinicidence.

Their acceptance might be coordinated. Based on their own admissions

1) Purple did an about face on Olive.
2) Olive originally wanted to pair with red supposedly but changed his mind.
3) Purple wanted hard to identify people to pair with easy to identify people but currently rests on meta knowledge for Olive town.
4) Olive asks Purple to retract invites and Olive accepts 4 minutes later. The rationale is the thought process looked invitee.
5) The awkward you were right I was town.

VOTE: Purple/Olive

I think I want to see this through.

Unknown!Titus with a lawl frog case and mason claim:

VOTE: Frogsterking

You have
1) put forth a game which isn't true (trying to call people toen blocks that aren't)
2) voted me immediately afterwards, despite arguing my mason claim was real before
3) have an unexplained ranger townread
4) whatever you did that got you wagoned prior to be coming in
5) inconsistent personality tell

[Frogsterking]

Cool, mason claim d1

I think Titus and Imaginality are Lovers and/or the claim is intended to phish.

[Frogsterking]

Spoiler:

Hmm interesting, I'll consider that

Why would you consider that, of all things? How have I not shown frustration lmao?

Because I'm basing my read on you partly off meta that I know and now new meta has come to light that I was not aware of.
Why would I not consider it...

Because her argument is that it's in my town meta to become frustrated with her, which is what I've done, but she is arguing that I am scum.

I don't think you've felt particularly frustrated about Titus

@696

Elements

eh maybe you're right and I'm the odd one out on that then. I've been extra careful lately:

Hi, friendly mod reminder that while mafia is a game that can get heated, please refrain from making personal attacks of any sort. Thank y’all. <3

I've been banned for this before.

[Frogsterking]

Frog what is scum!Titus' plan claiming mason with another player on the first day? Other than role-based trickery, which granted, sure. I need something other than how Titus seems disingenuine to you -- she can seem all the way scummy in the world, town seems that way sometimes too, esp masons

Before sending this post I can think of a few plans actually but they're all role-based. Also, I find it hard to account for why Titus would claim masons WITH imagine in order to presumably get the heat off of imagine. Lovers theory I guess would directly tie Titus' life to imagine's but feels a bit too on the nose

I think the fact that Titus was already being poorly recieved by the thread and that we were warned that mass claiming is bad for town make it less than 90% Titus claim is true. I'm not sure how my Lovers theory being "on the nose" makes it less likely to be true, that seems like a logical fallacy.

[Frogsterking]

For the avoidance of doubt: Titus is telling the truth, we are masons and I have also been specifically told by the mod that she is town.

(Yes, Titus and imaginality on near-opposite sides. Titus wouldn't pull this maneuver with a scumbuddy, and I believe she's

almost

always town from it. So, Titus is nearly certainly town for the claim. imaginality is not because no matter what Titus

says

, she and imaginality are not

actually

masons and I feel imaginality is scum exploiting Titus's earnest belief their roles make him town.)

Wow, that Pokemon Mafia game really left some scars, hey?

This is actually making me shift to townreading you now because I don't think you'd be as likely to keep pushing this point as scum, whereas I can see the situation bringing up SirCakez-flavoured bad memories as town.

It's incredble how, despite being explicitly intended for "the avoidance of doubt", this post does absolutely nothing to make you and Titus seem more credible.

[Frogsterking]

she can seem all the way scummy in the world, town seems that way sometimes too, esp masons

I already considered that, what changed my mind is that she is behaving toward my slot explicitly how she did in her scum game in Masqué.

[Frogsterking]

Open at start.

Yeah that's a lie. I have a topic and it did not open "at start".

This seems to be Ranger's objection. Any more voices on this?

Here is scum fake claiming mason D1 in a mini normal game I was in:

Spoiler:

Alright day one of pure MS productivity ban

tl;dr :

Don't give a shit.

VOTE: Frogsterking

Can't say you weren't warned.

Hardclaim Masons with innocentvillager

Softed on page 1 & my reads list (same green color code for me and iv, different code for other hard townreads). Interactions between us show familiarity when I've never been in a game with them. They call me town but don't justify it, unlike their other townreads.

iv didn't want me to out on d1 and one of our earlier public interactions was him trying to discourage me from it when I mentioned in Mason chat that it would suck to out early.

Your chainsaw came back to bite you in the ass. Lap & Frog are scum together.

Yes, this is true. I told him not to claim and I'm not too happy about his decision to out both of us here, but I have been pretty detached from this game so I've been trusting him to lead it anyway. I personally preferred a solo Mason claim if I was really in that much danger later on but he mentioned he thinks it's easier and more believable to just cement us both as town here.

As far as the Laplacian elimination goes, I think I'm mostly okay with this? His ISO is whatever and doesn't seem like he's going to be more readable. There's part of me that worries about "there's too little resistance for Lap to be scum", but Lap was under so much pressure from the get-go that I could see scum turbobussing their deadweight partner that flaked and doing some sort of "damage control". Idk tbh - I certainly don't feel strong enough to stop this anyway

The situation is different because in this game I don't believe the theory that Titus is town who wants to save scum!imaginality because of bad reads, like House was in the above game. Also, compare innocentvillager's above "confirmation" post to imaginality's below:

Spoiler:

For the avoidance of doubt: Titus is telling the truth, we are masons and I have also been specifically told by the mod that she is town.

(Yes, Titus and imaginality on near-opposite sides. Titus wouldn't pull this maneuver with a scumbuddy, and I believe she's

almost

always town from it. So, Titus is nearly certainly town for the claim. imaginality is not because no matter what Titus

says

, she and imaginality are not

actually

masons and I feel imaginality is scum exploiting Titus's earnest belief their roles make him town.)

Wow, that Pokemon Mafia game really left some scars, hey?

This is actually making me shift to townreading you now because I don't think you'd be as likely to keep pushing this point as scum, whereas I can see the situation bringing up SirCakez-flavoured bad memories as town.

[Frogsterking]

I guess it's not meta I'm basing it on but comparisons to a previous game

Can you elaborate on this? I'm pretty sure Titus is capable of telling the difference too, they read me right in the last 2 games we were both Town.

[Frogsterking]

I think all 3 of {Frogs, Gamma, Titus} are town, and this continued back and forth is damaging to the game state.

I don't agree that Gamma is town at all nor am I tunneling there. It's possible I'm tunneled on Titus being scum. I'm fine looking other places because there are a number of slots here I want to flip based on dayplay alone.

VOTE: furtiveglance

I skimmed the post 752 and it looked like disguised bandwagoning.

[Frogsterking]

It wasn't just the bandwagoning either in 752, I thought it showed a fear of posting in the thread.

[Frogsterking]

Here's an example of furtive big posting and catching up as Town:

Here's my reads from pages 1 to 30. If you have any questions, direct them to BigChungusGaming@gmail.not, which I am now volunteering to be part of.

Up to page 5 reads:

Spoiler:

Frogster

Cape90

Charloux

Marci

Malcolm

Gamma

Nero

Up to page 10:

Spoiler:

MariaR

Frogster

Cape90

Charloux

SirRhett

Marci

Gamma

Malcolm

Greeting

Nero

Up to 15:

Spoiler:

MariaR

Frogster

Cape90

Charloux

SaveTheDragons

Marci

SirRhett

KittyTacky

Nero

Gamma

Toogeloo

Malcolm

Greeting

Up to 20:

Spoiler:

MariaR

Marci

Frogster

SaveTheDragons

Cape90

Big Chungus

Charloux

SirRhett

KittyTacky

Nero

Gamma

Pooky

Toogeloo

Malcolm

Greeting

Up to 25:

Spoiler:

MariaR

Marci

Big Chungus

Frogster

SaveTheDragons

Cape90

Charloux

KittyTacky

SirRhett

Pooky

Enchant

Gamma

Toogeloo

Malcolm

Greeting

Up to 30:

Spoiler:

MariaR

Marci

Big Chungus

Frogster

KittyTacky

SaveTheDragons

Cape90

Pooky

Charloux

KittyTacky

SirRhett

Gamma

Enchant

Toogeloo

Greeting

Malcolm

I think comparatively, 752 looks more self conscious and agenda driven toward justifying his vote on my slot. I'm not convinced the difference is AI yet but it's enough to make me skeptical.

Spoiler:

Big Chungus was obv scum, by the way.

[Frogsterking]

I have some SHOCKING conclusions about the game (not clickbait) and I've quoted the posts which made me think (pensive) about the game in this way.
Mason claim real
Frogsterking scum
Tris scum
McMenno scum
Gamma Emerald town (already thought that)
Quiet Owl town
Ranger town

I also have an issue with these reads. Furtive thinks McMenno is scum who voteparked on his buddy? This list just looks off to me.

[Frogsterking]

774 is clearly Town!Gamma because scum!Gamma is far too reticent to flamebait a back and forth

/sarcasm

@ CSF

[Frogsterking]

In mini normal 242 (one of the games I looked through) you scumread StD and Pooky for AtE. Just means you would be self aware and going right into the AtE meant you didn't care if it was subpar play.

Oh, you meant trip up like it's something that I watch for as a scum tell?

Do you feel like you got anything out of it?]

Nope!

I have medication that gives me the dopamine mafia used to give me when I was getting all mentally ill and solvey.

Congrats on the new prescription.

Fwiw, I think there's a decent chance Quiet Owl made up their read on you anyway.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah this one is trying to see where it stands on imaginality/Frog/Titus but this topic as a whole is a little hard to follow, honestly. Rethinking is in order, for sure.

Then help sort these three instead:

@all I have three slots that need to be seriously considered as candidates for the D1 lim: Ythan, furtive and George.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah this one is trying to see where it stands on imaginality/Frog/Titus but this topic as a whole is a little hard to follow, honestly. Rethinking is in order, for sure.

Then help sort these three instead:

@all I have three slots that need to be seriously considered as candidates for the D1 lim: Ythan, furtive and George.

You can add Quiet Owl to this list too.

Quiet Owl/Ythan/Furtive/George

I'm not really interested in reading posts that aren't about which one of these four should or should not be killed. I prefer furtive or Ythan but I'd compromise on one of the other two.

If someone wants to suggest an alternate candidate for a D1 lim then I'm willing to read it if you ask me to. If I think the suggestion is bad then I'm going to tell you that it's bad though. For example, I am objectively a terrible candidate for a D1 lim. If you don't understand why, click on the activity overview in the bottom right of your web page. I don't care if you scum read me. Find another read. I'm like 90% that Gamma is scum and I'm not pushing for a Gamma lim for the exact same reason: they're too active in the game, it's a terrible move to go for slots like that D1.

Unless I'm forgetting something someone asked, all I have left to do for D1 is post my reads list and my meta case on Gamma.

[Frogsterking]

Why are people scumming George?

I might just be frog actually

I listed this as a potential TMI tell assuming the mason claim is real:

George

Spoiler:

VOTE: imaginality

{Save The Dragons}

How did you get this from StD's posts?

If mason claim is real then the leading wagons were a TvT cross during the time that George disappeared, which could explain an acute lack of interest in the game:

VOTE: George

This slots disappearance between 29 and 165 sits out the formation of my wagon as well as imaginality's wagon. I haven't checked what was going down when George disappeared again between 165 and 559, but my theory is that the leading wagons during that period of time were town, and George is scum who fell behind on the game and is too self-conscious to get in character now. During all of this time George had his vote parked on tris.

My points against George distinguish him from the other lurker slots mostly to players who believe that I'm town, believe the mason claim, and believe that tris is town.

If there are good reasons to townread George then...let's hear them, that's why I listed 4 candidates for the D1 lim.

[Frogsterking]

I really don't get the owl scumreads, probably one of my stronger townreads atm.

gamma said a "safe game"? do they usually play more risky?

What about Ythan/furtive/George?

I don't know what Gamma meant about Owl.

Merry Christmas.

I am very sick and delirious so please excuse me for a day

UNVOTE: tris

I don't have any read on George atm and I don't see how anyone could

I'm hoping with 23 players a few will have something to say about the slot. I see an AWOL slot with a weird post (224) who has been voteparked on tris slot. In a vaccum the slot is +scum and it's a good candidate for a D1 lim because it's also been low activity. Ranger and I think one other player town leaned George for some reason, so it seems worth digging here. That's why I chose them as a candidate.

[Frogsterking]

224 wasn't a George post
And it's an AWOL slot over the Christmas period that has said they feel ill so I don't think lack of posts is ai in any way

224 provides the context for why the quoted George post (165) was weird. I think your take on feeling ill and lack of posts is really boring and incomplete, I think it's safe to assume every low activity slot will reveal that they were sick, busy, Christmas etc., the point of the game is to figure out which ones are

also

scum. I think the fact that George said they were ill has no affect on how we can interpret their alignment, and the fact they are a low poster is intrinsically ai for scum. If you have no take on George that's fine, what about Ythan/Owl/furtive?

Activity based sorting

Spoiler:

reference: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Detection

Tl;dr

-Scum have lower post count on average than town
-The average post count is skewed upward (there are a minority of scum players who make a lot of posts, while the majority of scum players lurk)
-For example: scum team of Gamma+Ythan+furtive+george+owl+NM. Gamma and Ythan are the minority of high posting scum

within this game

, while the rest are all low posting scum.

AFAIK strategically:
-There are additional, unrelated strategic reasons to vote out low activity slots first. The players who go for "high info lim" early game basically handicap town, because those "high info lim" slots would have continued to scale in value the longer they keep posting and voting, while the "low info lim" will almost always stay "low info lim" the entire game and are better to sacrifice early, because they don't scale. Exceptions are abundant, this is just a principle and I could also be missing something.

[Frogsterking]

As a counter example to George, I think Vax and Tapi are total RNG slots not worth voting or discussing. I think George is worth discussing. I think "idk, George is 100% blank

to me

" is a completely valid position. I gave three other slots to consider.

[Frogsterking]

Kitten around and McMenno both have less than your four. Any particular reason to TR them?

Not good ones AFAIK. McMenno felt vaguely townie to me in a way that's objectively worthless as a tell and kitten I didn't even register was in this game. Do you want them on the table, and are there any of the four I listed that you think are bad candidates for D1?

[Frogsterking]

I think your take on feeling ill and lack of posts is really boring and incomplete, I think it's safe to assume every low activity slot will reveal that they were sick, busy, Christmas etc., the point of the game is to figure out which ones are also scum.

I'm sorry, I was too harsh here. I think your take on George is a good point, I just think there are other ways to look at it, Elements. The boredom is my own fault from IRL and has absolutely nothing to do with you.

[Frogsterking]

Do you think you Towned one of them incorrectly and/or do you think McMenno and/or kittens are better candidates? I think it's super duper unlikely all 6 of those slots are town. I think it's unlikely 5 of those slots are town.

It seems like you both disagree with gamma's read. Does that impact your reads on her?

What do YOU think of her?

I like this post but the rest of ythan's iso is very meh

I think Ythan's ISO is basic scum or maybe 3rd party and even 62 I specifically thought was AI for scum/3rd party. I looked at their past games and they are capable of much more as town (but also as scum.) I think a D1 Ythan group murder is fantastic for Town.

[Frogsterking]

I think we should all claim Naughty or Nice, because for whoever is Town, Santa just showed up Twice

Furtive/Quiet Owl/

Ythan

/

George

(seems like we gonna wait on George)

Town slots need to stick together in this setup I think. We can wagon Furtive, Quiet Owl, or put McMenno and/or kittens on the table.

With 4 pending replacement slots, it's probably going to be a while before we get a new Ythan. Back to this:

VOTE: Quiet Owl

I could be swayed onto furtive, but with my tris read kind of dropping before she replaced out, I'm not sure he is actually scum.

VOTE: Quiet Owl

I think furtive is a good vote too.

[Frogsterking]

my theories at the moment:
- frog is town, cat scratch is scum
- this is a multiball setup, and they're both scum

I'm pretty sure now that this

is

a multiball setup, and I want to know whatever Quiet Owl knows

[Frogsterking]

I don't believe Titus, furtive, imaginality, or quiet owl are town.

[Frogsterking]

Ranger, no one is going to towncase imaginality. That's not how it works. I'm not spending my time arguing about things I know to be true. It helps precisely no one. Casing someone means being open to feedback and I'm well NOT.

To keep your scumread on imaginality, you have floated through every possible scenario and ignored Frogsterking's behavior because it happens to agree with you. With all due respect, grow the fuck up. Move on if you're town.

I don't know what to tell you Ranger but you need to stop getting tilted by Titus, this is scum!Titus lol

[Frogsterking]

I want the slots who are actually Town to stop listening to slots who are obviously not Town and dogpile on Quiet Owl so we have a better idea what's going on behind the scenes

[Frogsterking]

Ranger, no one is going to towncase imaginality. That's not how it works. I'm not spending my time arguing about things I know to be true. It helps precisely no one. Casing someone means being open to feedback and I'm well NOT.

To keep your scumread on imaginality, you have floated through every possible scenario and ignored Frogsterking's behavior because it happens to agree with you. With all due respect, grow the fuck up. Move on if you're town.

I don't know what to tell you Ranger but you need to stop getting tilted by Titus, this is scum!Titus lol

Do you want to explain why you only voted Titus after Ranger did (post-Mason claim)?

No, I want you to die.

[Frogsterking]

It's mutual, but I'm also willing to engage with you about my reads if you want to try and seem interested

Alright, what's up furtive? Who are you willing to vote?

[Frogsterking]

With 4 pending replacement slots, it's probably going to be a while before we get a new Ythan. Back to this:

VOTE: Quiet Owl

I could be swayed onto furtive, but with my tris read kind of dropping before she replaced out, I'm not sure he is actually scum.

The fuck is this? Can you not vote-hop like a hummingbird that consumed caffeine?

It’s actually infuriating that when I decide to give the opposing viewpoint a try, the people holding it buzz off to some other nonsense. I already have enough of that in my irl, don’t fucking do it here.

It’s actually infuriating that when I decide to give the opposing viewpoint a try, the people holding it buzz off to some other nonsense. I already have enough of that in my irl, don’t fucking do it here.

Have to concur that we really need to decide on a wagon some time in the next lifetime.

Can you two stop getting baited by the anti town roles please

[Frogsterking]

It's mutual, but I'm also willing to engage with you about my reads if you want to try and seem interested

Alright, what's up furtive? Who are you willing to vote?

Maybe the tris replacement. But I really want to get you today, I feel like otherwise the whole gamestate will get clogged.

You have to convince me that the tris slot isn't townsided first. Why would you help town take down the tris slot? What do you think they are?

[Frogsterking]

It’s actually infuriating that when I decide to give the opposing viewpoint a try, the people holding it buzz off to some other nonsense. I already have enough of that in my irl, don’t fucking do it here.

Owl is next. You...aren't aligned with Owl, are you?

[Frogsterking]

You have nothing to offer me Owl unless you're willing to help kill furtive.

[Frogsterking]

That lasted all of 5 seconds.

Ranger have you realized Titus is role phishing you yet?

[Frogsterking]

I'm guessing furtive and Owl belong to the same faction. Any rivals want to help give them the boot?

[Frogsterking]

CSF. Please. Stop. Being. Susceptible. To. Gamma. Radiation.

[Frogsterking]

If you weren't the legend himself, I'd have questioned you putting yourself as null.

Do you ever feel like you just don’t know yourself?

[Frogsterking]

Hey MathBlade, I suggest you read the warning from the game reviewer that "mass claiming might go VERY poorly", since I know from my last game wth you that you specifically struggle to grasp this point, and I see you've already started outting information for no reason.

[Frogsterking]

In fact, I'm not sure which slot Math replaced, but if the menagerie of anti town roles in this game are desperate for a town slot to push through, I would consider helping you eliminate Math as policy since he already outted for no reason and has a history of being loose-lipped.

VOTE: MathBlade

Take it or leave it, scum/whatever/whatever/whatever else butts.

[Frogsterking]

@Titus

@imaginality

@Gamma

@furtive

@Enchant

@Quiet Owl

(I think)


My offer to help the anti town roles policy elim MathBlade will expire in 48 hours, so make your choices soon.

[Frogsterking]

Mental note about something expiring on Friday night.

day phases do not have deadlines by default. deadlines may be implemented for day phases at my discretion.

Clever, by the way.

[Frogsterking]

This seems performative

Thank you

I was a performance artist until the pandemic.

[Frogsterking]

Why exactly do you think I'm playing very badly?

[Frogsterking]

I just can't fathom why or how scum can claim masons with another player on D1 and expect to get anywhere. So I bin them as town pretty much

I already linked a counter example to this. I will do so again:

Mini Normal Bunnies

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

House = town
innocentvillager = scum

D1

Alright day one of pure MS productivity ban

tl;dr :

Don't give a shit.

VOTE: Frogsterking

Can't say you weren't warned.

Hardclaim Masons with innocentvillager

Softed on page 1 & my reads list (same green color code for me and iv, different code for other hard townreads). Interactions between us show familiarity when I've never been in a game with them. They call me town but don't justify it, unlike their other townreads.

iv didn't want me to out on d1 and one of our earlier public interactions was him trying to discourage me from it when I mentioned in Mason chat that it would suck to out early.

Your chainsaw came back to bite you in the ass. Lap & Frog are scum together.

Yes, this is true. I told him not to claim and I'm not too happy about his decision to out both of us here, but I have been pretty detached from this game so I've been trusting him to lead it anyway. I personally preferred a solo Mason claim if I was really in that much danger later on but he mentioned he thinks it's easier and more believable to just cement us both as town here.

As far as the Laplacian elimination goes, I think I'm mostly okay with this? His ISO is whatever and doesn't seem like he's going to be more readable. There's part of me that worries about "there's too little resistance for Lap to be scum", but Lap was under so much pressure from the get-go that I could see scum turbobussing their deadweight partner that flaked and doing some sort of "damage control". Idk tbh - I certainly don't feel strong enough to stop this anyway

I think it will be interesting to see who mafia nightkills in the next couple days - if they decide House and I are worth killing over trying to hunt more useful PRs, that might be useful information.

D2

I'm definitely townreading House for the mason claim, I think it's a really crazy play to make as a pocket

VOTE: VP Baltar

I think RTP being the kill over me and House strongly suggests either me/VP are scum given that we were both in their solve. It's too wifomy of a kill if both me and VP are town and I really don't see why scum wouldn't just let koba deathtunnel town!VP

Hi sorry guys - this game has been moving rly fast and I haven’t put much time here

I have information that Something Smart is probably scum, I would maybe be like 95% on it

VOTE: Something Smart

Im not sure if I should just claim or not but I’m willing to

If we get a few more yeses I will claim

To be clear House is the vigilante right, If I’m seeing this correctly

Okay - I’m a town even nights Gunsmith. I Checked Something Smart last night and he did have a gun in flavor

You just lie and claim something else and get +town for it because of https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... n_Audacity. It's not that hard. Easy, even.

[Frogsterking]

Despite him usually acting anti-town, the claim made sense there. It was just enough to correct me and nothing further.

And everyone wonders why I don't believe Titus is town...

[Frogsterking]

Despite him usually acting anti-town, the claim made sense there. It was just enough to correct me and nothing further.

And everyone wonders why I don't believe Titus is town...

By everyone, I mean the 2 players I'm thinking of off the top of my head.

[Frogsterking]

Actually, Quiet Owl, are you scamper?

[Frogsterking]

post by post frog analysis: (22 out 126 posts read, taking a lunch break, sorry about the lack of readability formatting)

Spoiler:

post 69

- to be taken with salt, as intro posts ideally should be provocative in order to start readable discussion. HOWEVER, the reads here are contradictory and garbage.
frog reads:

1. tris scum, for "awkward looking questions" - garbage take
   
2. ythan scum, specifically for asking someone their opinion on another player - also a garbage take! seems like everyone in the thread is asking such questions, including frog himself.
   
3. erinys scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
4. lycanfire scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
5. furtive, csf and gamma town, meta handwaving

at this stage,

1. furtive has particpated in random voting, cracked jokes, and requested realtime interaction. why is furtive towny for this, but erinys and lycanfire are actively scummy? contradictions: 1
   
2. csf is asking questions but also giving reads. up until #85 i also pegged her as town.
   
3. gamma has done basically nothing at this point. how can you possibly read her as town at that point.

post 76

- backs off on tris when questioned, stands his ground on the ythan read. does not acknowledge this is contradictory. contradictions: 2

post 79

- backs off on lycan, stands ground on erinys. contradictions: 3

post 81

- interested in reasons to town read ythan

post 86

- picks up on csf's weird scummy feeling 85 post,

here begins the frog vs csf era

post 90

- meta discussion of csf

post 94

- frog vs csf fight fight fight fight
frog reads:

1. lycanfire, town, for "doubling down on questioning" so questioning is scum behaviour until the questioner tries applying pressure?
   
2. csf, scum, for questioning his flimsy initial reads.

post 97

- makes a :/ face at csf for voting erinys, who frog reads as scum

"viewing it from a PoV where scum!ythan sees an opportunity to frame town!csf in a scummy light"

the two people viewing csf in a scummy light here are frog and myself. ythan made no such attempt. agree with gamma here: "I feel like Ythan saw CSF’s play at that point as pressing others for reads rather than working on making her own so she opted to press CSF on it"

more frog vs csf

post 100

- asking csf for a reads list even though supposedly asking for opinions is scummy

post 108

- dislikes csf's small reads list, weakly applies pressure

post 110

- i don't even know here. csf didn't post on page one and therefore her question here is valid. how on earth would it be +scum? how on earth is posting a readslist with no justifications +town for ranger? this just feels like cheap theatre.

post 115

- frog vs csf

post 118

- frog vs csf, frog wavers on ythan

post 124

- links his own scum post as proof that ythan #62 is scummy??
frog reads:

1. enchant, weak town, for mech spec?
   
2. andree, weak town, for mech spec?

post 125

- frog reads:

1. ythan, scum
   
2. princess, scum
   
3. furtive, scum
   
4. ranger, town

no new reasons provided for these reads. asking ranger for reads on george, erinys, and gamma

post 142

- frog reads:

1. morning tweet, town
   
2. KT, town

no reasons provided.

post 145

-

"as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."

frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

no comment on the gamma comments other than frog reads: gamma, scum

"This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative."

frog questioned erinys's identity with his gimmick comment earlier, hence the negative reaction. this should be obvious.

"I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated."

so people shouldn't challenge flawed reasoning? excuse me?

(directed to csf)

"I think it's somewhat likely that I overreacted because you've read me right quickly in the past. I was thinking about it and I'm no longer convinced that there's a scum motivation for you to play this way. I'm not sure how defined your playstyle is as scum but I'm picturing you as more pockety and under the radar when you're scum. I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

this is the end of frog vs csf.

i don't understand and am not remotely convinced by his reasoning to drop the scum!scf case.

literal omgus response to mcmenno for voting him

post 147

- no comment

post 149

- the ol' 62-124 ythan accusation. no comment here other than as previously stated i think this is not indicative of ythan's alignment either way. indicative of frog's because he keeps pushing this as scumtell gospel? absolutely.

post 153

-

"I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta."

ok why don't you then.
backing up the bluster here with action would help frog achieve the quickhammer he supposedly wants, and yet he seems content with just casting aspersions.

no comment on the joke/serious tris bit

post 154

-

"I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but four separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now."

show us the games, mr frog.

post 156

- gloating, putting on a show of confidence

I've seen this level 1 analysis before, I think Quiet Owl is probably town, but worth elimming as a compromise.

[Frogsterking]

Actually, Quiet Owl, are you scamper?

who or what is scamper?

A noob with a grudge.

[Frogsterking]

I wonder if "probably town" is a stretch for Quiet Owl. I guess a better way to put it is that even though 960 is explicitly scummy, I think in theory it

can

come from town. I am talking myself back into a Quiet Owl scum read.

read #906, where i have

detailed

Don't think so.

Quiet Owl, you are voting furtiveglance by now, correct? I recall you being supportive of that wagon, and your viewpoint there being the only one which seemed pro town.

[Frogsterking]

I guess a better way to put it is that even though 960 is explicitly scummy, I think in theory it can come from town. I am talking myself back into a Quiet Owl scum read.

906 I meant

[Frogsterking]

Granted though that it's a stretch to say "Scum post a lot except when they don't" to confirm both scum that post a lot and don't post a lot LMFAO.

MT,

Spoiler:

I'm assuming that you hated statistics in high school?

I have a trick question for you which only 3 people I've ever asked IRL got right (my dad, 1 friend, and 1 boss:)

Most people have more than the average number of legs.

True or false?

[Frogsterking]

Mmm Titus seeming townier.

[Frogsterking]

Yes because asking a basic question while resisting the urge to punch a wall somehow makes me townier.

You okay?

Going to try to catch up while on a break. Might disappear have been having a rough shift.

If frog isn't town that all seems very deliberate, almost jestery

Pretty much. It's easy to point out how thin frog's reads can be sometimes, considering he tries to read the entire game immediately regardless of how much actual content there is. It's less easy to prove he's scum based off of that. I think the most of Owl's post makes frog's thought processes seem illogical but not for any particular purpose.

this part caught my eye though:

post 145 - "as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."
frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

@Quiet Owl: this comment in frog's post 145 pings me as odd:

"I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

I feel like a townie there would not be saying "+town for both of us" compared with "+town for you". It seems an unnatural way to phrase it and to me makes it feel like frog is more focused on guiding others to read him as town (as with the other comment you noted in the same post) rather than on trying to read others.

I agree this is scummy

I've been waiting for someone else to point it out, but frogster keeps making comments like 'the town needs to stick together' and comes up with town blocs/speaks about the necessity of town blocs (not just one.) Goes from seeing himself as super best friends with Titus to not in the span of 21 posts. I've found the third party read of Ythan cute, but at this point I'm sure this game is multiball.

This seems more like town behaviour than scum behaviour to me. My reads are more static as scum. I also probably wouldn't spin around to tinfoil after mason claims after previously establishing them as town. It all seems like erratic town thought processing. But I'm not frog sure

The more this one thinks about it the less likely it thinks Titus's mason claim is real. Their insistence on things like the PT, knowing imaginality's alignment, etc etc are all convincing, but a D1 outing of two masons when one had at most 7 out of 12 votes and has since dropped from that... It's kind of insane, honestly. Really sketched out by this.

I just can't fathom why or how scum can claim masons with another player on D1 and expect to get anywhere. So I bin them as town pretty much

It's weird that it happened so quickly but i see town claim their roles with less votes tbh. I don't discount that there's something that feels off I guess. Usually masons are kept a tight secret, so you'd expect like maybe imagine claims by himself -- but Titus claimed for imagine, outting 2 masons at once? Why?

Titus seems stressed by something and tends to be pretty suboptimal when stressed. I don’t see this as scum but based on the fact she claimed it I would go with town panic. I did a similar panic as town a long time ago when myself and my mason buddy were the top two wagons.

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

Why do you think there’s two town blocks? That’s rather odd and uncharacteristic of you. Not scummy just unique so I would like to know why.

Sounds like a question more likely to be asked by scum.

Owl or Frog?

Owl, I think Owl’s analysis makes sense because I don’t understand many of Frog’s takes. He posted examples of scum making fake claims but none of those claims used the exact expression “mod confirmed”. I’ve never seen a fake claim in any mafia game ever where scum used that specific phrasing.

You need to look for those little tells not ignore them, so I don’t understand how Frog is ignoring that. I could see town!Frog being really tunnelled. I also think if he were scum, he’d be less likely to keep changing his vote since scum in general aren’t very adaptable.

Seems like white knighting. I find it unlikely kittens actually thinks Owl's analysis is good.

[Frogsterking]

I think the detail of that take looks like Owl put a lot of thought and analysis into that post. It didn’t read to me like iioa. Do you disagree with that?

You're the only one whose bringing up IIOA, AFAIK. I'm saying Quiet Owl's analysis in 906 is pretty sparse and surface level, to the extent that anyone quick with a mouse and keyboard could write it in 30 seconds upon request, even if they've never played a game of mafia in their life. I think if you were really Town it would be easier for you to recognize this.

I'm open to believing you that you're confused about my reaction, I think what could be happening is that you're pretending to view the game how you think a townie would, and you skimmed Owl's post and thought it would be normal townie thing to be persuaded by. It isn't.

[Frogsterking]

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

You're being an ass here. Back off.

So much for the "Quiet" Owl.

[Frogsterking]

Do you have some examples of setups? I have got a lot to read so don’t have time to read other games on top of that but some examples might be nice so I can get a “feel” for the mech so to speak.

Lamist, and classic scum assigning busy work. Whoever Math is talking to isn't aligned with them I don't think.

[Frogsterking]

It just really made sense to me because of what I know about past Xyzzy games.

What does this mean?

[Frogsterking]

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

*middle finger gif*

Sorry a bit of a reaction but still.

You think Math has to be an overbearing jerk in every game to be town, or just me in particular?

Math, Titus and Quiet Owl are all missing the point I made, in that Math is "pretending" to be empathetic toward Titus. As in, he is explicitly approaching Titus in a saccharine way which he only does as scum trying to pocket people. If I'm wrong about this, then feel free to disprove me.

[Frogsterking]

As far as I'm concerned, Math is an exceptionally polarized player and this is scum!Math. Once they have a chance to post more I may change my mind.

[Frogsterking]

Okay and the reasons for Frogger are…?

post by post frog analysis: (22 out 126 posts read, taking a lunch break, sorry about the lack of readability formatting)

Spoiler:

post 69

- to be taken with salt, as intro posts ideally should be provocative in order to start readable discussion. HOWEVER, the reads here are contradictory and garbage.
frog reads:

1. tris scum, for "awkward looking questions" - garbage take
   
2. ythan scum, specifically for asking someone their opinion on another player - also a garbage take! seems like everyone in the thread is asking such questions, including frog himself.
   
3. erinys scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
4. lycanfire scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
5. furtive, csf and gamma town, meta handwaving

at this stage,

1. furtive has particpated in random voting, cracked jokes, and requested realtime interaction. why is furtive towny for this, but erinys and lycanfire are actively scummy? contradictions: 1
   
2. csf is asking questions but also giving reads. up until #85 i also pegged her as town.
   
3. gamma has done basically nothing at this point. how can you possibly read her as town at that point.

post 76

- backs off on tris when questioned, stands his ground on the ythan read. does not acknowledge this is contradictory. contradictions: 2

post 79

- backs off on lycan, stands ground on erinys. contradictions: 3

post 81

- interested in reasons to town read ythan

post 86

- picks up on csf's weird scummy feeling 85 post,

here begins the frog vs csf era

post 90

- meta discussion of csf

post 94

- frog vs csf fight fight fight fight
frog reads:

1. lycanfire, town, for "doubling down on questioning" so questioning is scum behaviour until the questioner tries applying pressure?
   
2. csf, scum, for questioning his flimsy initial reads.

post 97

- makes a :/ face at csf for voting erinys, who frog reads as scum

"viewing it from a PoV where scum!ythan sees an opportunity to frame town!csf in a scummy light"

the two people viewing csf in a scummy light here are frog and myself. ythan made no such attempt. agree with gamma here: "I feel like Ythan saw CSF’s play at that point as pressing others for reads rather than working on making her own so she opted to press CSF on it"

more frog vs csf

post 100

- asking csf for a reads list even though supposedly asking for opinions is scummy

post 108

- dislikes csf's small reads list, weakly applies pressure

post 110

- i don't even know here. csf didn't post on page one and therefore her question here is valid. how on earth would it be +scum? how on earth is posting a readslist with no justifications +town for ranger? this just feels like cheap theatre.

post 115

- frog vs csf

post 118

- frog vs csf, frog wavers on ythan

post 124

- links his own scum post as proof that ythan #62 is scummy??
frog reads:

1. enchant, weak town, for mech spec?
   
2. andree, weak town, for mech spec?

post 125

- frog reads:

1. ythan, scum
   
2. princess, scum
   
3. furtive, scum
   
4. ranger, town

no new reasons provided for these reads. asking ranger for reads on george, erinys, and gamma

post 142

- frog reads:

1. morning tweet, town
   
2. KT, town

no reasons provided.

post 145

-

"as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."

frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

no comment on the gamma comments other than frog reads: gamma, scum

"This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative."

frog questioned erinys's identity with his gimmick comment earlier, hence the negative reaction. this should be obvious.

"I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated."

so people shouldn't challenge flawed reasoning? excuse me?

(directed to csf)

"I think it's somewhat likely that I overreacted because you've read me right quickly in the past. I was thinking about it and I'm no longer convinced that there's a scum motivation for you to play this way. I'm not sure how defined your playstyle is as scum but I'm picturing you as more pockety and under the radar when you're scum. I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

this is the end of frog vs csf.

i don't understand and am not remotely convinced by his reasoning to drop the scum!scf case.

literal omgus response to mcmenno for voting him

post 147

- no comment

post 149

- the ol' 62-124 ythan accusation. no comment here other than as previously stated i think this is not indicative of ythan's alignment either way. indicative of frog's because he keeps pushing this as scumtell gospel? absolutely.

post 153

-

"I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta."

ok why don't you then.
backing up the bluster here with action would help frog achieve the quickhammer he supposedly wants, and yet he seems content with just casting aspersions.

no comment on the joke/serious tris bit

post 154

-

"I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but four separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now."

show us the games, mr frog.

post 156

- gloating, putting on a show of confidence

Basically I agree with Quiet Owl that Frog is acting weird. Borderline like a jester which makes me stumble for a moment but I think he's just scum trying to lead the game.

I'd like to point out confirmation bias ie KT is just saying the same thing they've been repeating all game, whereas kittens is pretending to be persuaded by Quiet Owl's post, hence KT reaction = apathetic townie and kittens = lying. This is also why I think antitown!kittens made the mistake they did, as it may have seemed like a good idea to pretend this way in theory but isn't working out how they thought it would. Now they are scum just stuck here called out in the thread throwing words around randomly hoping they hit the right note.

Okay and the reasons for Frogger are…?

post by post frog analysis: (22 out 126 posts read, taking a lunch break, sorry about the lack of readability formatting)

Spoiler:

post 69

- to be taken with salt, as intro posts ideally should be provocative in order to start readable discussion. HOWEVER, the reads here are contradictory and garbage.
frog reads:

1. tris scum, for "awkward looking questions" - garbage take
   
2. ythan scum, specifically for asking someone their opinion on another player - also a garbage take! seems like everyone in the thread is asking such questions, including frog himself.
   
3. erinys scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
4. lycanfire scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
5. furtive, csf and gamma town, meta handwaving

at this stage,

1. furtive has particpated in random voting, cracked jokes, and requested realtime interaction. why is furtive towny for this, but erinys and lycanfire are actively scummy? contradictions: 1
   
2. csf is asking questions but also giving reads. up until #85 i also pegged her as town.
   
3. gamma has done basically nothing at this point. how can you possibly read her as town at that point.

post 76

- backs off on tris when questioned, stands his ground on the ythan read. does not acknowledge this is contradictory. contradictions: 2

post 79

- backs off on lycan, stands ground on erinys. contradictions: 3

post 81

- interested in reasons to town read ythan

post 86

- picks up on csf's weird scummy feeling 85 post,

here begins the frog vs csf era

post 90

- meta discussion of csf

post 94

- frog vs csf fight fight fight fight
frog reads:

1. lycanfire, town, for "doubling down on questioning" so questioning is scum behaviour until the questioner tries applying pressure?
   
2. csf, scum, for questioning his flimsy initial reads.

post 97

- makes a :/ face at csf for voting erinys, who frog reads as scum

"viewing it from a PoV where scum!ythan sees an opportunity to frame town!csf in a scummy light"

the two people viewing csf in a scummy light here are frog and myself. ythan made no such attempt. agree with gamma here: "I feel like Ythan saw CSF’s play at that point as pressing others for reads rather than working on making her own so she opted to press CSF on it"

more frog vs csf

post 100

- asking csf for a reads list even though supposedly asking for opinions is scummy

post 108

- dislikes csf's small reads list, weakly applies pressure

post 110

- i don't even know here. csf didn't post on page one and therefore her question here is valid. how on earth would it be +scum? how on earth is posting a readslist with no justifications +town for ranger? this just feels like cheap theatre.

post 115

- frog vs csf

post 118

- frog vs csf, frog wavers on ythan

post 124

- links his own scum post as proof that ythan #62 is scummy??
frog reads:

1. enchant, weak town, for mech spec?
   
2. andree, weak town, for mech spec?

post 125

- frog reads:

1. ythan, scum
   
2. princess, scum
   
3. furtive, scum
   
4. ranger, town

no new reasons provided for these reads. asking ranger for reads on george, erinys, and gamma

post 142

- frog reads:

1. morning tweet, town
   
2. KT, town

no reasons provided.

post 145

-

"as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."

frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

no comment on the gamma comments other than frog reads: gamma, scum

"This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative."

frog questioned erinys's identity with his gimmick comment earlier, hence the negative reaction. this should be obvious.

"I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated."

so people shouldn't challenge flawed reasoning? excuse me?

(directed to csf)

"I think it's somewhat likely that I overreacted because you've read me right quickly in the past. I was thinking about it and I'm no longer convinced that there's a scum motivation for you to play this way. I'm not sure how defined your playstyle is as scum but I'm picturing you as more pockety and under the radar when you're scum. I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

this is the end of frog vs csf.

i don't understand and am not remotely convinced by his reasoning to drop the scum!scf case.

literal omgus response to mcmenno for voting him

post 147

- no comment

post 149

- the ol' 62-124 ythan accusation. no comment here other than as previously stated i think this is not indicative of ythan's alignment either way. indicative of frog's because he keeps pushing this as scumtell gospel? absolutely.

post 153

-

"I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta."

ok why don't you then.
backing up the bluster here with action would help frog achieve the quickhammer he supposedly wants, and yet he seems content with just casting aspersions.

no comment on the joke/serious tris bit

post 154

-

"I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but four separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now."

show us the games, mr frog.

post 156

- gloating, putting on a show of confidence

Basically I agree with Quiet Owl that Frog is acting weird. Borderline like a jester which makes me stumble for a moment but I think he's just scum trying to lead the game.

I am leaning more he just doesn’t like me as a player.

We butted heads hard last game we were in and I pushed scum BGC hard and he pushed scum Pooky hard.

It just really made sense to me because of what I know about past Xyzzy games.

What does this mean?

Xyzzy setups are frequently either bastard or mech complex if not both. They had a jester in one game and a scum recruiter role in another and I think you look like you’re trying to solve but ignoring things like Titus saying “mod confirmed” for example.

But if this game is anything like those other Xyzzy games I spectated, then it explains why I’m so confused so far in this game. I expect that will change once we get some flips.

What does this have to do with 906?

[Frogsterking]

You seem very tunnelled and you’re ignoring really blatant things like Titus saying Imaginality was mod confirmed.

Yeah you can scream and wail and gnash your teeth and it doesn't change the fact that you don't really find 906 convincing and you have no way to answer 1055 about how you're caught in the thread and didn't realize Quiet Owl wasn't talking about multiball in 906.

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to go ahead and say that Quiet Owl and kittens aren't aligned because of kittens white knighting of Owl. If I replace George and Ythan from earlier, I think Math and kittens are good candidates to replace them.

That means we're looking at a D1 elimination between

Furtive/Quiet Owl/Math/kittens

I prefer furtive and kittens over Quiet Owl and Math. I'm still leaving my vote on Math until Friday night. (972)

I'm going to go cook up some decaf.

[Frogsterking]

Kittens go ahead and post a reads list whenever your ready.

[Frogsterking]

In what world is Frogger going “hey d1 elim between 4 players” when he’s a top wagon?

Xyzzy's

That means we're looking at a D1 elimination between

Furtive/Quiet Owl/Math/kittens

All four of you should be maintaining up to date reads lists fyi to help us sort you.

PEdit:

That goes for you too Math. The sooner you post your reads the more likely I'll be to cooperate with you.

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

*middle finger gif*

yeah that bothers me too
I don't get the same vibes I did in LOST from Math (albeit we were scumbuddies but there was some openwolfing on Math's part there)

Admittedly in LOST I had Covid and was barely able to post words or anything coherently and was trying to just summon desire to post. Warrior Cats is a better example of a scum game where my brain wasn’t confuzzled

Not sure on this take but gut says SvS.

[Frogsterking]

My intuition is that Gamma/Math/furtive are the group scum. Maybe imaginality too if Ranger's theory on Titus is correct.

At this point, this one is convinced there is almost no world in which Frogster is town here. If Jester wasn't a realistic probability this one would probably throw it's vote onto him but at this point ignoring him sounds like the better idea until we have some kind of idea of what his actual role is. Do not trust him either way, because both his actual play and his tone have been getting increasingly worse as the day progresses and it's both actually scummy and just plain frustrating to watch even if this one hasn't really been on the receiving end of his needlessly toxic aggression.

Yeah same, I would definitely, honestly be voting HPE if I wasn't so sure it's a jester, I swear.

[Frogsterking]

My intuition is that Gamma/Math/furtive are the group scum. Maybe imaginality too if Ranger's theory on Titus is correct.

At this point, this one is convinced there is almost no world in which Frogster is town here. If Jester wasn't a realistic probability this one would probably throw it's vote onto him but at this point ignoring him sounds like the better idea until we have some kind of idea of what his actual role is. Do not trust him either way, because both his actual play and his tone have been getting increasingly worse as the day progresses and it's both actually scummy and just plain frustrating to watch even if this one hasn't really been on the receiving end of his needlessly toxic aggression.

Yeah same, I would definitely, honestly be voting HPE if I wasn't so sure it's a jester, I swear.

I’m kinda feeling the jester vibes. I don’t see how anyone can legit scumread 1/2 of a mason claim.

I just can't fathom why or how scum can claim masons with another player on D1 and expect to get anywhere. So I bin them as town pretty much

I already linked a counter example to this. I will do so again:

Mini Normal Bunnies

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

House = town
innocentvillager = scum

D1

Alright day one of pure MS productivity ban

tl;dr :

Don't give a shit.

VOTE: Frogsterking

Can't say you weren't warned.

Hardclaim Masons with innocentvillager

Softed on page 1 & my reads list (same green color code for me and iv, different code for other hard townreads). Interactions between us show familiarity when I've never been in a game with them. They call me town but don't justify it, unlike their other townreads.

iv didn't want me to out on d1 and one of our earlier public interactions was him trying to discourage me from it when I mentioned in Mason chat that it would suck to out early.

Your chainsaw came back to bite you in the ass. Lap & Frog are scum together.

Yes, this is true. I told him not to claim and I'm not too happy about his decision to out both of us here, but I have been pretty detached from this game so I've been trusting him to lead it anyway. I personally preferred a solo Mason claim if I was really in that much danger later on but he mentioned he thinks it's easier and more believable to just cement us both as town here.

As far as the Laplacian elimination goes, I think I'm mostly okay with this? His ISO is whatever and doesn't seem like he's going to be more readable. There's part of me that worries about "there's too little resistance for Lap to be scum", but Lap was under so much pressure from the get-go that I could see scum turbobussing their deadweight partner that flaked and doing some sort of "damage control". Idk tbh - I certainly don't feel strong enough to stop this anyway

I think it will be interesting to see who mafia nightkills in the next couple days - if they decide House and I are worth killing over trying to hunt more useful PRs, that might be useful information.

D2

I'm definitely townreading House for the mason claim, I think it's a really crazy play to make as a pocket

VOTE: VP Baltar

I think RTP being the kill over me and House strongly suggests either me/VP are scum given that we were both in their solve. It's too wifomy of a kill if both me and VP are town and I really don't see why scum wouldn't just let koba deathtunnel town!VP

Hi sorry guys - this game has been moving rly fast and I haven’t put much time here

I have information that Something Smart is probably scum, I would maybe be like 95% on it

VOTE: Something Smart

Im not sure if I should just claim or not but I’m willing to

If we get a few more yeses I will claim

To be clear House is the vigilante right, If I’m seeing this correctly

Okay - I’m a town even nights Gunsmith. I Checked Something Smart last night and he did have a gun in flavor

You just lie and claim something else and get +town for it because of https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... n_Audacity. It's not that hard. Easy, even.

[Frogsterking]

I wonder where Ythan is?

currently the Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, and Ythan slots are waiting for replacements

Hmm, I could still be wrong on Math. I don't think I'm wrong on kittens.

[Frogsterking]

Kittens go ahead and post a reads list whenever your ready.

I don’t have a full list yet but rn

my strongest town reads are on the mason claims, STD, MT.

I’m sorry I don’t have any more confident reads yet.

Yeah it makes it look like you haven't been solving. If you continue to expand with more reads from what you have here then that would be helpful at least.

[Frogsterking]

That would be pretty sweet if tris were scum who had us snowed and Math came in and blew their cover. I kind of think I need longer on Math to decide. *gestures toward offer to antitown slots of policy elimming math before Math starts a massclaim*

[Frogsterking]

At the risk of being an absolute ass, Frog why are you being angry e

I stopped reading here. Get a reads list up at the soonest opportunity that's convenient for you. Thank you.

[Frogsterking]

i assume that a jester!frog here wins when dead, in which case the course of action here is probably to ignore him completely until we have reason to suspect that he's a different sort of scum?

mcmenno mentioned having a role that interferes with investigatives so i assume that if true that's a counter to someone else's role. would be a convenient way of resolving the frog conundrum.

The problem with leaving a jest alive is that they can derail discussions and make it hard to scumhunt. I'm still not sure if he's actually jester or just scum acting like jester tho.

I hope there's a vig.

Can you imagine something cool in your fantasy world for me, KT?

[Frogsterking]

Oh yeah…that game hurt my brain

I'd credit Bell primarily with helping me learn to resist this brand of manipulation:

Being vulnerable isn't bad, but during a game of mafia I wouldn't recommend it. People are trying to deceive, manipulate, etc. Even Town. Think of it as laser tag, once you're assigned a team and the music plays it's best to think of it as game on until the music stops.

................ Lukewarm go to bed.

I was talking to frogster.

Granades can be useful, even necessary. But sometimes it can feel like you have a million puzzle pieces, you're piecing them together and someone just throws a bunch of extra puzzle pieces around and dislodges a bunch of your work. Time and place.

This isn't a newbie game, Bell. I'll back off

Good night all.

I wonder where Ythan is?

currently the Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, and Ythan slots are waiting for replacements

Not to be that guy, but does anyone TR these slots?

+scum

No reads list and delberate redirection to literal RNG slots (the two that aren't Ythan.)

[Frogsterking]

I wonder where Ythan is?

currently the Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, and Ythan slots are waiting for replacements

Not to be that guy, but does anyone TR these slots?

Ythan is a townlean for me.

I would think this is TMI if I hadn't seen KT have good reads in other games.

[Frogsterking]

Oh yeah…that game hurt my brain

I'm not totally sure what I think of your slot yet, but considering this kind of manipulation is on brand for you, I feel safe saying that I credit Bell with teaching me to resist what I think you're doing here:

Being vulnerable isn't bad, but during a game of mafia I wouldn't recommend it. People are trying to deceive, manipulate, etc. Even Town. Think of it as laser tag, once you're assigned a team and the music plays it's best to think of it as game on until the music stops.

................ Lukewarm go to bed.

I was talking to frogster.

Granades can be useful, even necessary. But sometimes it can feel like you have a million puzzle pieces, you're piecing them together and someone just throws a bunch of extra puzzle pieces around and dislodges a bunch of your work. Time and place.

This isn't a newbie game, Bell. I'll back off

Good night all.

I wonder where Ythan is?

currently the Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, and Ythan slots are waiting for replacements

Not to be that guy, but does anyone TR these slots?

+scum

No reads list and delberate redirection to literal RNG slots (the two that aren't Ythan.)

[Frogsterking]

Hmm. Maybe Math is town after all. Maybe.

[Frogsterking]

And lol at Frog ignoring the read list

I skimmed your iso and didn't see it.

[Frogsterking]

votecount 1.12

I've actually spent a lot of time on Drury Lane and I never once saw this so-called "muffined man"

6 players voting for Frogsterking (McMenno, Ythan, KittyTacky, imaginality, Titus, furtiveglance)
4 players voting for Ythan (Save The Dragons, Morning Tweet, Gamma Emerald, HighPrincessErinys)
3 players voting for Ranger (Quiet Owl, GeorgeBailey, Elements)
2 players voting for Quiet Owl (Cat Scratch Fever, Ranger)
2 players voting for MathBlade (Frogsterking, Enchant)
1 player voting for Not_Mafia (Not_Mafia)

5 players not voting (Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, kitten around, Lycanfire, MathBlade)

with 23 votes, it takes 12 to eliminate.

mod notes:

In what world is Frogger going “hey d1 elim between 4 players” when he’s a top wagon?

I feel like I a missing a huge part of the puzzle I’d vote either of the top wagons atm as I don’t townread either. I wonder where Ythan is?

Ranger I kinda want to see what they come up with more

Quiet Owl I kinda waffle on

Like are there any major OMG events or something?

@Frog

Going to bed now.

Thank you.

dear santa,

as a late christmas gift, can i get frog muffling duct tape please

I'll ghost the thread until Friday night.

[Frogsterking]

I'll break my silence to say I am a TPR with big swing for Town and if a rolestopper is available then I request they visit me tonight because it is important that I get my shots off at night. I feel okay soft claiming because:

1) it's immediately obvious that I am a TPR due to how I am approaching the game, especially to scum, therefore
2) scum may opt to roleblock me if available, in order to waste more of town's time tinfoiling my slot
3) I have finally identified a solid N1 target for my ability, and a roleblocker may not have realized that I require their assistance
4) While I was away I created a new list of D1 candidates for D1 lim (who I am suggesting because my impression is that guidance is required on slots who actually make sense to vote D1:)

Furtive/kittens/George/Enchant

George, furtive, and kittens are all scummy based on simple tells which are easy to spot, while my read on Enchant is both based and based on similarity to their scumgame in TfT. Quiet Owl and MathBlade I swapped out because they are generating more associative tells with other players, commenting on a wider variety of things and in my experience I don't think they are as likely to flip scum as Enchant or George are.

I'm still intending to ghost the thread until Friday night, and after that, I may ghost the thread again for a couple days. Unless anything important happens then I'll mainly just be posting a reads list and maybe my meta case on Gamma. I'm somewhat apathetic who gets voted out as long as it's one of those four. I'd rather other people discuss and choose so the discussion can be read D2. Opportunity to policy lim Mathblade revoked, and I'm switching my vote to furtive because I have a slight preference for that slot over the others:

VOTE: furtiveglance

[Frogsterking]

3) I have finally identified a solid N1 target for my ability, and a rolestopper may not have realized that I require their assistance

EBWOP rolestopper

[Frogsterking]

Btw i am also powerful town role. Please all protectives on me.

No proofs.

while my read on Enchant is both based and based on similarity to their scumgame in TfT.

I knew you were here and only protectives with multitargetting can be on you. *ghosts away*

[Frogsterking]

Thank you for making and running a cool setup!

First real multiball game for me.

The only major thing that bothers me about my performance is that I didn't listen to George D1. They had a great read on Ranger and I pretty much blew them off. Next time I want to be more flexible in my reads when I see good posts coming out from a quiet slot.

[Frogsterking]

Did I suck as much as I think I do?

I don't think so, you might be too hard on yourself though. Listening to Phoenix was worse than a mistake; it was a blunder. That doesn't make you stupid or a bad player at all though, it just means you blundered. Usually blunders are caused by emotions disrupting our thoughts I think rather than having bad thoughts to begin with. So being too hard on yourself would be my guess yeah.