Choose Carefully Mafia: (Game Over)

[Kairyuu]

-arrives in a massive explosion-

Hi all!

My thoughts after reading the game while waiting to replace in:

1. STD is probably town. He's made quite a bit of sense throughout the D1. I disagree with the attempted wagon against him. It was unfounded. He was correct in pointing that out.

2. BM is probably town. His play, while I disagree with it for ethical reasons (you should never try to beat the mod) seemed much more likely town play than scum play, since he was talking about game breaking for town, and was correct about the possible effects.

3. oEJo is quite obviously scum. He claimed town Neighbor with no other powers and then survived a lynch. That means he is either a lying townie or lying scum. I am betting on the lying scum.

4. Ribwich is likely oEJo's buddy, for these reasons:
-Upon realizing that oEJo has pretty much outed himself, he suggests not lynching him so that the other faction will do it at Night. Seems like he's just trying to put the lynch off.
-When the first attempt fails, he moves to get the lynch type changed to rope for a really weak reason.
-He then moves back to gun soon before the lynch actually happens. Possibly to try to make himself not as culpable when his buddy doesn't die.

5. armlx is likely town. Nothing but good contribution from him all game.

6. CarnCarn I saw as likely town early on, but my read has shifted to a more neutral position since then due to a bit of flip-flopping late in the day. Not enough for suspicion, but enough that I don't read overly townie any more.

7. SocioPath is likely scum. Of which faction I do not know, but lurking, tossing around suspicion without explaining it, even when it is called for, is definitely a scumtell in my book.

I don't have any decent reads other than those, except that Empking's playstyle is annoying, because I hate lurkers.

That said, you will

not

see me lurking or flaking like my predecessors. If you don't believe me, ask STD, he'll confirm that I am quite active (he was one of the ICs in my first game, and knows my style).

vote: oEJo
vote: gun

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

So, Kairyuu, does that make HP scum for symmetry reasons then?

I see him as neutral right now. I haven't seen concrete proof that your symmetry idea applies to this game, and I have not done much analysis of how certain roles balance each other out, so I'm loathe to base accusations on that. If it does apply though (would you mind explaining exactly how the symmetry makes the game balanced, or point to where you did already), then i would say that either him or CarnCarn are scum. Not sure which, but it would probably be hp if you take CarnCarn's early play into account.

@ribwich:

This isn't true at all. You must have gotten something mixed up.

Liar. What is this then:

Vote: OeJo
Vote: Gun

Lying when you can be quoted in your lie is hardly in your best interest.

As for your other points, I honestly thought that scum would have been more willing to attack each other at night rather than town, and I felt a weak reason for a vote was better than no reason.

I suppose I can accept that.

I tend to assume that other players will understand the general 'best case scenerio' for the scum, which, having been scum in a mini and having this happen, is to get the town to knock off other anti-town factions instead of having to do it yourself. In my case we got the SK to get lynched D2 after a townie mislynch D1, which put the town straight into LyLo D3, because we were free to kill the doc N2 instead of worrying about crosskills. In this game, it is the best case scenerio for each mafia faction to focus only on townies during the Night and focus on finding the other faction during the Day, so that the most damage is done to both of the opposing factions as quickly as possible, speeding them to a position where they are damn near unstoppable.

The fact that you are reasonably new means that it is somewhat likely that you didn't consider this game mechanic before, because you probably haven't been in a game including more than one scumgroup before. I apologize, because in this case the numbers say that you are probably telling the truth (no, I'm not a schizo listening to numbers speak, I analyze them).

@Sociopath: Mind backing up your conjecture? I'll let STD tear down your argument himself, but I'll just point out now that it is full of massive holes.

Now that I actually see your reasoning, and go over your posts, I am even more convinced that you are scum. It makes no sense. Nothing you have contributed to this game has been more than setup speculation, which has nothing to do with your alignment, and a few baseless accusations. I would put you quite firmly on the scum side of my list. 65% approximately.

[Kairyuu]

@ribwich: . . .

That's what I get for viewing players in isolation. Sorry 'bout that. That changes alot actually. My opinion of you has gone from scum to neutral, as I was working with flawed data.

[Kairyuu]

@CarnCarn:

Yeah, you should really try to read in context. May change your opinion on some people.

I think I figured that out. When I read through the first time I remembered something odd about his vote pattern, so I viewed in isolation to find it. I saw that and figured I found the thing I was remembering. I guess I was wrong. So sue me.

[Kairyuu]

Hello? It's been almost 24 hours (17 actually) since anyone posted, and we have yet to hear from 5 of the 14 players, and some of the people who

have

posted have done little more than vote. People need to pick it up.

[Kairyuu]

WHAT!?!?!?

First of all, that makes absolutely no sense. I have never even

heard

of someone immune to all lynches (one-shot very rarely, but never full). -Looks at backup mod- Damnit. You may not be lying.

Second of all, if you are town, you are probably the most anti-town townie I have ever seen. If you have this role, you claim it BEFORE the lynch D1, because if you are town then you should want nothing more than to help the town win. Getting yourself put on the chopping block just because you know you can't die is essentially a free night for the scum. What the

hell

were you thinking?

I don't want to waste a second day proving you're claim true, but I also don't want to let you live as scum. I'll let your response to the above points determine my position.

[Kairyuu]

@BM:

its thanks to this guy i'm not dead yet.

Explain please? How exactly did you screw up badly enough to die? I didn't see anything overly suspicious, so I would like to know what you saw.

@armlx:

Waiting on STD to show up and answer questions, but I'm definitely voting oEJo once that happens.

Same. 'cept I'm already voting.

Opinions on the claim from you in the mean time?

[Kairyuu]

@armlx: Got it. Question was for clarification purposes only, as you had not overtly stated your opinion.[/quote]

[Kairyuu]

@BM:

I didnt want to hammer OeJo yesterday. It's been a long time since ive tried to toy with the rules like that. The idea was to make it LOOK like i hammered, without actually hammering, so we could:

A. Get a reaction out of OeJo
B. Get information out of the Mod

I like you. You're like me, but without gameplay ethics. I like the idea of seeing oEJo's reaction if he thought he had been hammered quite a bit. Kudos for that, since there is nothing more important than reactions. On the other hand, I still disagree with the attempt to garner info from the mod, because, as the mod is not a player, it is not a legit strategy to pursue. I would ask that you please refrain from trying to trick the mod into giving us info we shouldn't know. That said, you are reinforcing my town read of you with your motives.

Sadly i didnt read the rules, and legitimately dropped the hammer. So yeh, it was a mistake, and im sorry.

And dropping the hammer is bad why? Your action told us two things.
1. oEJo is immune to rope lynches.
2. oEJo was withholding info in his claim, info that can only help the town (scum don't care about lynch immunity at Night)

The logical conclusion that we can draw from that is that oEJo is a member of the scumteam that is vulnerable to guns (too lazy to check which one that is).

I'd say proving someone as scum isn't really something to apologize for. I think you are putting yourself down unnecessarily.

And seeing as pretty much everyone thinks im town, there must be a reason i wasnt NKed last night. I first thought it was the hammer, but apparently not. Then it must be somebody who still thinks i am lynchable.

Well, I would agree, except that there are far too many alternate possibilities to consider. Perhaps there was a lucky doc, or one team thought you were part of the other team and tried to kill you with whatever kills the other team, or both teams had other priorities, or each team thought the other was going to take you out so they didn't have to, or even that you are scum yourself. Way too many possibilities to even begin to speculate about why you didn't die.

[Kairyuu]

Oy! Lazy people! Post more! I can't really be expected to carry on a discussion with

myself

now, can I? Why is it that since my post yesterday, which was slightly over 24 hours ago, there have been all of

three posts

, all of which have been over 24 hours ago? Honestly, pick up the pace people. This is pathetic. Games only die if the players

let it happen

! Don't make me do something really controversial to get you all to start yelling at me. If that's what it takes to kick-start the game I'll do it, but I'd rather not, since that would ultimately hurt the town (there, jump on that, maybe it'll get you posting). And yes, if you couldn't tell, I'm an activity Nazi.

Mod: Prods on, like, half the players please? And a votecount too if you don't mind.

[Kairyuu]

Time for some balance theory from me.

Based on the fact that oEJo flipped scum I am perfectly amenable with the idea of symmetry that armlx proposed ages ago.

Here's my own contribution:

We have 4 scum, divided up 2 and 2 into the two scum teams. How do I know this? Simple, three player scum teams would be physically impossible if the town would have any chance at all to win. Here's why.

-3 scum plus 3 scum equals 6/16 players as scum, each with a kill at Night.

-Assume one successful lynch of scum and two successful kills of townies each cycle, with one scum group being eliminated completely before another is hit. That gives us:
-After D1 = 15 (5 scum)
-After N1 = 13 (5 scum)
-After D2 = 12 (4 scum)
-After N2 = 10 (4 scum)
-After D3 = 9 (3 scum)
See the problem yet? In this situation the town gets only 1 mislynch, and only gets that once one scum faction is entirely gone. To illustrate this point, let's look at the same situation, assuming the town lynches scum of alternating factions on successive Days. That would give us:
-After D1 = 15 (5 scum)
-After N1 = 13 (5 scum)
-After D2 = 12 (4 scum)
-After N2 = 10 (4 scum)
-After D3 = 9 (3 scum)
-After N3 = 7 (3 scum)
-After D4 = 6 (2 scum)
-After N4 = 4 (2 scum)
-After D5 = 3 (1 scum)
-After N5 = 2 (1 scum)
That's a scum win, with the only thing up in the air being which faction is the final winner.

Now if you factor in the fact that the town needs to successfully determine which weapon to use on each scum, the town tends more towards a tendancy to leave each scum alive for a day through a failed lynch. Let's look at this situation now, assuming that one half of the town lynches fail the first time. We'll factor in the same deal for the scum as well, even though their percentage to hit successfully is signifigantly higher (we assume one faction is eliminated entirely as in the first example):
-After D1 = 16 (6 scum)
-After N1 = 14 (6 scum)
-After D2 = 13 (5 scum)
-After N2 = 13 (5 scum)
-After D3 = 13 (5 scum)
-After N3 = 11 (5 scum)
-After D4 = 10 (4 scum)
-After N4 = 10 (4 scum)
-After D5 = 10 (4 scum)
-After N5 = 8 (4 scum)
-After D6 = 7 (3 scum)
At this point the miss chance goes away for both parties because they know that each other are the only remaining group. And wouldn't you know, it's LyLo. If we assume the alternating situation like in my second example, then the town loses in this fashion:
-After N6 = 7 (3 scum)
-After D7 = 7 (3 scum)
-After N7 = 7 (3 scum)
-After D8 = 6 (2 scum)
-After N8 = 4 (2 scum)
-After D9 = 4 (2 scum)
-After N9 = 4 (2 scum)
-After D10 = 3 (1 scum)
-After N10 = 2 (1 scum)
And there's the same situation, a scum win, with the only variable being which faction wins the prize.

No matter how you look at it, the town has, at most, one mislynch, and then only late in the game. This would be unreasonable odds for the town to expect to win with. Cut the scum teams down to two players each and you solve all of the problems, giving the town a fighting chance of winning with good play.

What does all of this mean, you ask? It means that if armlx is right about the neighbor scum ratio, we have another scum guarenteed among 4 players.

That said, I'd like to see how this case of yours pans out armlx. I'm not quite sold on it yet though. I'll have to reread your original case. Until then,

vote: ribwich
vote: gun

My point about the alteration of the lynch type at the end of D1 is right back on the table, since the way it panned out, we would have lynched scum D1 if not for that.

[Kairyuu]

Nope. I saw the thread was open and I started writing it up. I had the math planned out in my head from a day or two ago. Stuff like this is sorta my thing. I enjoy working out bits of setups.

[Kairyuu]

Frankly, I'm confused at the results of the Night actions thus far. RBT dying N1 confused the hell out of me because it means that (in all likelyhood) one of the scum groups decided to kill a lurker who had posted nothing but one-liners over a more active and productive player. No deaths last night threw me completely for a loop as well. I'd say that either we have some damn good power roles, the scum are trying to hit each other and hitting townies instead (resulting in no kill), they are accidentally hitting each other when shooting for townies (still no kill), or they are serious lurkers who just forgot to put in night actions.

No matter which of those situations are true, the fact remains that in order to make a game balanced, a mod must take into consideration perfect play from both sides as possible outcomes (as my runthough does). If you have to rely on steller play from the town and poor play/luck from the scum in order to give the town a win, then the setup is unbalanced.

So, to answer your question, no, I don't see the NKs, or lack thereof, to have much, if any, effect on the balance necessity.

[Kairyuu]

@ribwich:

I think what CarnCarn is getting at is there could be a significantly larger number of power roles in this game to balance it out, which I do agree could be a possibility.

Except that something like that would make it worse. See below:

Because the more complicated a game is, the more difficult it is for the Town, there comes a point where increasing the number of pro-Town power roles may actually tilt the game balance in favour of the Mafia.

I don't think that there would be many power roles, since the game is already rather complex as it stands currently, and to make it more complicated by throwing in a bunch of power roles would make for a massive headache for the players instead of making it more interesting. I doubt bird would do that to us.

Since there was only one kill N1, I think a power role would almost have to be involved since there weren't any kills N2. Assuming the only reason one of the scum teams failed in their kill N1 was because they used the wrong method, the only thing they would need to do is switch their method for N2.

There is a problem here. You fail to take into account three of my four scenerios. What about lurker scum who missed deadline? What about scumteams targetting townies specifically who hit scum N1? What about scumteams targetting opposing teams but hit townies N1? Personally, given the fact that several players failed to post at all D2, I would say that the lurker scum possibility is higher than average.

Also, in essence, we are in a situation very near to the third situation i proposed in my scenerios. We had no lynch D1, but the equivalent of 2 NKs (because both the modkill and the nk flipped town). Then we had a scum lynch D2 and no NKs. That puts up at the exact D3 start point that I mentioned up there. If we have 6 scum then we're well on our way to losing unless we can play damn near perfectly, because if either scenerio 3 or 4 are in effect (if we assume 6 scum), then the best we can hope for is LyLo with a scumgroup gone.

@armlx:

Your assumption is based on 0 power roles.

10-2 vanilla is abysmal for the town. 9-3 with 2 masons, a doc, and a vig is fine. Just saying.

And it seems we must disagree. I consider 10-2 vanilla to be pretty decent, because the town gets 3 mislynches before LyLo, as opposed to 2 in a 9-3 setup. Also, masons and a doc are very nice, but tossing in the vig hurts the town tremendously by getting rid of an available mislynch if the vig shoots just once without the doc successfully blocking a scum kill (assuming said vig hits town, as happens more than it should). And then we have to get into the whole topic of vig accuracy and SK WIFOM. Also into the realm of doc being one of the easiest scum fakeclaims, and the WIFOM of scum claiming masons. There are far too many variables to say that the power role game is better than the vanilla game.

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

Disagree.

Thank you. Now tell me why.

Clearly, you don't understand vigmath.

You're probably right.

In the 9-3, 2 vig kills + 2 lynches pre loss = 4 deaths caused by the town minimum, of which 2 are higher probability to cause scum deaths as the vig is confirmed town for them. If vig never kills with night start there are only 3 town caused deaths minimum. Less shots to hit the scum is bad.

Ok. More deaths caused by the town is good, I will give you that, but I work based on mislynches before LyLo. I consider losing an available mislynch to be bad, as the town as a whole loses a kill. With a vig you rely too much on the ability of the single player to find the scum.

You are arguing things that Xyl has proved incorrect with mathematical data. Doc and vig are both +EV for the town. You are citing corner cases compared to their net return.

I don't know who Xyl is, so I would obviously have not seen these proofs. Explain to me how I am arguing corner cases. If you have evidence that contradicts my speculation then I'm all ears, but I'd appreciate something more than "you're wrong because this other player you don't know proved it." Can you link me to his/her proofs. I always like to see quantitative data supporting one position or another.

And show me a 10-2 where town has won. Then you can argue this.

Well now, someone is being rather arrogant. I can argue whatever the hell I want, wrong or right. Prove me wrong and I'll shut up, but say I can't argue a point and I'll beat that point to death just to piss you off . I have read upwards of 50 games on MS, and not once have I seen a 10-2 vanilla setup. Obviously that keeps me from being able to show you one where town has won. I have provided my reasoning on this. I look at available mislynches as important. The more the better. Since 3>2, I see 10-2 as better than 9-3 in most cases.

@Detspeed:

I just want to say go town!

Yup. I was wrong. STD was scum. I have never seen a townie do this (and can site a few examples of scum doing it if I need to).

unvote: ribwich
unvote: gun

vote: Detspeed
vote: rope

@BM:

Vote: Kairyuu

You know, I had you pegged as a player who wasn't the type to throw a vote on without a word of reasoning. I expect to see your case against me in your next post. I won't ask you to remove your vote, but I can't exactly respond to your suspicions if they aren't stated, now can I?

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

Ask me how many set ups I have seen. I expect the set up to be 4 power roles, 2 nillas, 4 town neighbors, 2 scum neighbors, 4 scum nillas.

Alrighty then. How many setups have you seen?

I can see where you get your setup theory mostly, but why 4 powers and 2 vanillas? And why wouldn't the scum have power roles in that situation? Isn't it unbalanced to have 6 scum with no real powers except for 2 quasi power roles, which are much more easily found than the vanilla scum against 4 town power roles and 4 quasi power roles? I suppose that it could be balanced out by putting in more scum like you are assuming, but in that situation I would think that the balance switches right over to the scum advantage. Can you explain it to me? I'm confused.

And Kairyuu, are you saying 1 lynch is more powerful then 2 vig kills?

Sometimes. It depends on the situation. If you are absolutely sure that someone is scum but the town won't believe you then you take matters into your own hands, but if you don't have the strongest of suspicions, or your suspicions are shared by several other people, then I think the lynch is better, because it gives more info. A vig kill just nails scum, but a successful lynch does that plus gives the town reactions and voting records to look at the next Day. I dunno about you, but I'd rather find the scum by cornering them with their own words than be forced to rely on a power role to do the work. The original purpose of power roles was to help the town catch the scum more easily. They were not intended to do the work themselves. If a power role hits one of the scum, that's great. If that power role hits all of them, then it isn't really a town win.

9-3 has more ways to ensure lynches aren't mislynches, as well as ways (RB/doc/JK's) to make up the missing lynch.

The first bit is true, if only because the ratio of scum to town is increased and there is almost always a cop (which I don't like). The second bit is true as well.

[Kairyuu]

Ah yes. That is a good point. I forgot to take that into account.

[Kairyuu]

@Santos:

How can we deduce that the rope is the right method?

Well, if we assume that armlx is correct about the 2 scum neighbors thing where they are on different teams then since oEJo needed a gun to lynch, then it would follow that the other scum neighbor would require a rope.

@Detspeed:

As for your ass-umption that I could be mafia and vote so aggressivly in that regard, it was my first post in my first game on this web site. I just wanted to be funny. I think I might have missed the mark, but I can see where your vote comes from. I have voted for people in other towns for less. You have every right to vote for whom ever you choose, and I would not take that right from you. That would be a very mafia thing to do.

Newbie card works only in Newbie games, and even then not for long. The fact that you replaced into a fully developed Large theme means you are confident about your ability to play well.

Right now I am on page 28 and still tring to figure out who is in the game and who is replaced with whom. It would be nice if I had some help, but unfortunatly I don't so you will just have to be a little more patient, or just kill me.

Ask and you shall receive. What information exactly are you looking for? If I can help I will.

@BM:

You had me pegged wrong. But then, i dont know how you had me pegged ATALL, given we've never played together before. :S

I dunno. It

could

have been because I had read 31 pages of this game.

You can't respond to suspicions that aren't posted. But it's always interesting to get a response to a vote before you explain it. If it makes you feel any better, your response isnt especially scummy, except that you sound like you're kissing my ass a bit.

I agree that it is a good guage of alignment to vote and watch for reactions, but I don't think leaving the reason out does anything more than contaminate the sample, since all alignments have a tendency to get irritated at unreasoned votes. And no, I was not trying to buddy up. I try to be polite as much as I can around here (until I get pissed off and start ranting endlessly).

That said, my vote should be pretty self-explanatory.

Your precursors were scum, therefore you are scum.

You've done nothing to suggest being protown to me, although i will acknowledge that you are playing much better than they did.

Bolded: Hmm. Either the mod sent you my role pm and sent me someone else's, or you are making assertions that you have no way of backing up. I would just love it if you could prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that the role I got is wrong and I'm scum, since you seem certain enough to state it as fact.

Oh yeah, and I don't attempt to look protown. I attempt to catch and lynch scum. They are not the same thing.

Also, CarnCarn makes a very good point. Not only did you never accuse my predecessors of being scum, you never accused me of it D2, not even after the post that you say looked scummy, which I will address presently.

This query struck me as scummy. Furthermore, PutaPuta was not a sitewide flaker. It's only here he found participation difficult. And i'm naturally suspicious of players who go overboard trying to look protown.

Three problems with this post.

First, how exactly did my question 'strike you as scummy?' It helps if you explain yourself when you make an accusation.

Second, I have a fairly good idea as to why PutaPuta flaked here and not in other games. I think it's ZazieR. I remember randomly stumbling accross a game with the both of them in it, and PutaPuta expressed displeasure right off the bat upon discovering that ZazieR was there too. I believe that the accusation was something like PutaPuta accusing ZazieR of 'being a dick' to him/her in previous games. It's just speculation, but I see that as the most likely reason, especially considering no one had suspected any of them when they left.

Third, how am I going overboard to look protown? I've done nothing but post my thoughts and yell at people for lurking.

@armlx:

Anyone on the Detspeed wagon based on his single post is weak sauce.

Newbie 661. Player: Haterade. Look it up. He did

exactly

what you just did. He was right, but that's because he was the scum blocker.

@hp [leaves]: Don't use ad hom.

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

Your point?

Lack of reasoning irritates me. My point is that the player referenced couldn't provide reasoning because he was scum and that is how he knew he was right. I want reasoning from you now in order to determine if the cases are at all similar past the initial similarity.

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

Its weak because the people are relying on a weak tell from a new player, who is liable to do anything under normal scenarios regardless of alignment, let alone scenarios involving having to read 35 pages of material before entering the game, especially when there are far stronger reasons already existing to be suspect of him. Basically, it looks like people trying to reason hopping on the wagon now rather then earlier.

Hmm. So you are saying that we can't use anything he does as a tell because he's new? If that is the case then I would have nothing to vote him for, since I didn't find STD remotely scummy. Also, if you assume that he will play like a newbie, then it should be perfectly fine to vote him for tells most often committed in newbie games. It follows from that, that the 'go town' is a reliable tell on a newbie who hasn't played before and doesn't know the current meta. Therefore, I would say that the people voting him are perfectly well reasoned in doing so.

I'm still waiting on the answers to the questions I asked a while ago by the way.

@moses:

Why would have Puta signed up for a game with ZazieR in the first place?

No clue. All I have is another game I saw where that situation happened. I'm essentially speculating.

@Detspeed:

As for the "newbie card" I didn't even know what kind of game I was getting into.

Well then why did you join up in an existing game? Don't you think joining a newbie game out of the gate would have been a better idea?

I'm not sure what my neighbor HP [Leaves} has anything to do with it. I can talk to him but I don't know his affiliation?

Yeah. It's like a weakened (severely) version of masons. I don't really see the point of it either, but if armlx is right it helps us somewhat to catch scum because it puts 1/3 to 1/2 of the scum in roles where their counterpart is likely to claim if wagoned.

What is the difference in Gun and Rope?

One scum group is only vulnerable to gun lynches and the other is only vulnerable to rope lynches. If we try to lynch scum with the wrong weapon, the lynch will fail. What I find odd is that you haven't read the rules at the top of the front page. It explains all of this there.

What about a candlestick in the library? It was Professor Plum I know it.

I

knew

it. You just saved us all quite a bit of trouble.

What do think about mafia and do you have any suspicions in that regard. You seem like a smart player and I can follow your points, but you haven't made many in the last few posts, about why you have voted for anyone, besides that save the dragons said suspicious things. Could you enlighten me where you stand on the issues? (global warming, war on terror, etc.)

I can't really tell what you are asking/saying here. Can you elaborate please?

[Kairyuu]

@moses:

I would think that if somebody had that big of a problem with another player (where that person would quit games the player was in), that person would not replace into a game where said player was playing.

I'm not necessarily saying that I buy BM's theory that Puta dropped from this game because he's scum, but Kairyuu's counter-theory that he dropped because of ZazieR doesn't hold much water.

First bit: Perhaps PutaPuta just didn't notice that ZazieR was in the game?

Second bit: Obviously my theory doesn't hold water. Neither does his. I can't tell you exactly why my predecessors flaked, because I am not them. Honestly, I don't care either. They posted nothing, and I jumped right in. I'm not going to apologize for their behavior, but I'm not going to let that be the only thing brought against me. Try actually judging

my

actions please.

[Kairyuu]

Puta was Gimbo. I don't think his actions are completely tied to his alignment, especially minor speculative connections.

Exactly. Also, who/what is Gimbo?

[Kairyuu]

@ZazieR:

Am I getting the blame that PP left?
This was my second game with him and I was probably the nicest to him in the first. He called me a *Beep* probably due to the third game.

Nope. No blame. Just a possible explanation, as it doesn't logically make sense that three different players would flake out of the same role.

Need to do a reread as the new guy posts long posts and I need to look for some scummy things.

New guy being me? Or Detspeed? He's newer, but I am the one who posts walls of text.

@Detspeed:

You can always choose to ignore the fact that I am new. It doesn't bother me.

Good attitude. I like you. You're still scum though.

@Empking:

I'm confused.

Then read the thread. And post content when you're done.

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

Nice productive comment......

So what? I replaced into this game 5 pages ago and I've posted more content than several people who were here the whole time. I'm

allowed

to include the occasional off topic comment.

@Empking:

ZTR, Moses le fou, SocioPath, ribwich, ZazieR should be voting.

And you should be not ignoring me and actually saying something useful. I do agree with you though.

@mod: ZTR needs to be replaced since his/her last post was a month ago. Sociopath needs a prod/replacement too, since he's been gone 2 weeks. Battle Mage needs a prod, four days since a post. Santos II needs a prod for four days as well. And that's it.

Also, I will be V/LA until Tuesday night because I am going out of town.

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

But its the EXACT reverse of the "But I'm TOWN" appeal to emotion that I note all the time and has even more potential for abuse.

Are we talking about the same thing here? I thought you were yelling at me for saying that I liked Detspeed's attitude. Were you referring to the 'you're still scum' part? Because that was just me making reference to that fact that I still find him scummy despite agreeing with his attitude.

MOD, please prepare yourself for a future prod when Kairyuu is not going to post for the matter of 2 days from now; I know its a lot of time to give him, but we may be lenient later.

You'll

nevah

catch me needin a prod! The hotel has interwebz!

@all: I agree with armlx and CarnCarn and Santos. hp was being foolish, but that =/= scummy.

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

I was referring to the "You're still scum" part.

Ok. I'll have to ask you to elaborate then. How is "you're scum" in the context which I used it similar to "I'm town"? How is it an appeal to emotion? The two statements have nothing to do with each other in my opinion.

Also, I'm still waiting for responses to these questions:

Alrighty then. How many setups have you seen?

I can see where you get your setup theory mostly, but why 4 powers and 2 vanillas? And why wouldn't the scum have power roles in that situation? Isn't it unbalanced to have 6 scum with no real powers except for 2 quasi power roles, which are much more easily found than the vanilla scum against 4 town power roles and 4 quasi power roles? I suppose that it could be balanced out by putting in more scum like you are assuming, but in that situation I would think that the balance switches right over to the scum advantage. Can you explain it to me? I'm confused.

@Santos:

Before I signed up here I never thought there would be so much inactivity...its rampant!

Pot kettle much? Since the beginning of D2 you've made 9 posts, and only one of them has been more than 3 lines long. I do agree though.

I'm glad you brought that up though, because it got me looking more closely at you. I seem to recall you saying something before being modkilled about being conservative when you aren't vanilla. Considering how much your posting level dropped once you replaced bak in, I think it is safe to say that you aren't vanilla. Given that you have voiced absolutely no suspicions of your own since replacing, and even went so far as to quasi-defend oEJo until he resisted the D1 lynch, only voting him once it was 100% guarenteed that he would be lynched, I have reason to believe that you are scum. Specifically, that you are (ironically) oEJo's scumbuddy.

Since I see this as a stronger tell than the reason I'm voting Detspeed, I'll

unvote: rope
unvote: Detspeed

and

vote: Santos II
vote: gun

@Detspeed:

The win condition is the mafia die. Does it get any harder than that? I thought I was the new guy.

I think he was trying to get you to name it word for word from pro-town role pms, which would have gotten you modkilled. He was being foolish.

I think I'll be lynched any way. So trickery seems a little odd. The fact that you would stick up for a stupid question could meen that you two are in together?

How about instead of saying you will be lynched in every post you make, you actually attempt to defend yourself. Do not just roll over and submit unless there is no way out.

I'm sorry I didn't finish reading your post and I am so sorry. I didn't realize you voted for him. Please forgive my rash defence for I am at work and tring to rush.

You remind me of a friend of mine. He can't stop apologizing for everything, and is a complete defeatist. Snap out of it man!

[Kairyuu]

It's just a completely irrelevant, baseless comment that only serves as a plea to get people to listen to you irrationally.

Still confused. I wasn't asking anyone to listen to me. If I was trying to get people to listen to me then I would have told them to listen to me. That entire statement was intended to be an off topic comment where I say nothing with any relevance to the game. I included the 'you're still scum' part (directed towards him) in order to clarify that, even though I was agreeing with his attitude, (no bearing on the game) it wasn't going to change the alignment I consider him to have (game related). So yeah, it was clarification. I don't see what you see as so bad, since it wasn't even directed at you. That's like saying that the side conversation that a majority of the players in Newbie 661 had about Warhammer is irrelevent (well, duh), baseless (not game related, doesn't have to have a base), plea to get people to listen (if you don't want to join in, then why not just ignore it).

At my last count over a month ago, I had played in 70+ completed games, + a bunch more ongoings, plus MTGS games, plus set up reviews, plus modding, plus.....

You get the idea.

Wow.

1) I guess its possible to have 5-6 power roles, but 4-2 is even numbers on paper and there would be way too many non-vanillas otherwise.

In this case I was more wondering why there are not more than 2 vanillas.

2) The scum are inherently power roles in this set up. 50% lynch, NK, investigation, doc protect immunity. So the town can be weighted as such.

I keep forgetting to take this mechanic into account.

[Kairyuu]

@Detspeed: I'll say the same thing to you as I said to hp [leaves]. Don't use ad hom. It irritates people, and is rude.

@BM:

lol if your theory doesnt hold water, why did you mention it?

Because, while it cannot be backed with fact (hence, does not hold water), it is an alternate theory. One which you fail to take into account when you automatically accuse me of being scum because my predecessors flaked. Therefore, the same question goes back at you BM. Why did you mention your theory, when you could not back it up with fact either? You have made an assertion, now back it up.

You're panicking. My vote stands.

I'm panicking? Really? How so? Perhaps you could actually back up things you say. The burden of proof lies with you my friend. I haven't panicked, and your vote is still baseless. Frankly, you disappoint me.

@all: Detspeed wagon is nice. I'll go back to it soon if that is the play for today, but I think Santos needs to be looked at more closely, either now or D4.

[Kairyuu]

@Santos:

Where did I 'defend' oEJo? Quote please.

See CarnCarn and moses responding to a question directed at me.

How could I be his scum buddy when my original 'Santos I' role was Vanilla Townie?

Did I say that you were his scumbuddy as Santos I? Nope. I said that

now

, as Santos II, with your new role, you are scum. Also, you weren't vanilla. You were a neighbor.

As it seems right now you are fishing for something, but I don't quite know what you are trying to attain other than trying to implicate something about my new role. You had pointed out my comment about my Vanilla Town play as opposed to how I would play as any other given role. So what?

So what? You admitted yourself that you play conservative when not vanilla. you are currently playing so conservatively that you haven't even posted a single suspicion since replacing back in. You voted oEJo because he was the guarenteed lynch for D2, and then you voted Detspeed because SocioPath said STD was scummy D1 and you agreed. Neither of those votes was accompanied by your own reasoning. This is scummy.

And these people would be?

Ha! Misrep much? This question was directed at armlx and was in response to his assertion that there would have to be only 2 vanilla townies in the game based on balance. Why are you bringing this up now? It happened over a week ago, and has nothing to do with anyone's alignment. If you want a reason behind the question, it is that from what I have seen there are often more vanillas than power roles in any given game. However, that is not what you asked. You asked who the vanillas were. Not only would I not have any knowlege af who is what role

regardless

of my alignment, it looks like you are fishing for vanillas so that you can look elsewhere for your kills. Add to that the apparent implications of the question being a complete misrepresentation of the context with which the question was asked, i would say that you confirmed yourself as scum in my eyes.

I believed he (oEJo) was scum ever since his first post in regards to our affiliation with our roles. His wreaked scum.

Lies. You never once voted for oEJo during D1, even when you were town. Then D2 you only voted him once there was no chance of him surviving the Day. Scumscum can't keep his story straight.

confirm vote: Santos II

[Kairyuu]

@Santos: Ok. So in response to my accusations you say you wouldn't be that stupid. You ignore the bit where I pointed out a contradiction in your position. You use appeal to emotion in a freakout. I would prefer to lynch you today, but I would be fine with Detspeed too.

[Kairyuu]

How are the suspicions inconsistant? All three of us agree on he fact that you seemed to be trying to out the cop, but I went further with the case. Either way, if three different people are all voting for you for different reasons, that just implies that you have done quite a few things that other people see as suspicious. It doesn't mean that you blow off the suspicion, it means that you are forced to address the three people separately.

[Kairyuu]

Self vote + appeal to emotion = scummy

I'm through with your defeatest attitude. It is more likely than not simply a ploy to get us to feel sorry for you and leave you alive. I apologize for the necessity of lynching you so soon after you replaced in, but I see both you and Santos as almost guarenteed scum right now, and the rest of the town has chosen you for today.

unvote: both

and

vote: Detspeed ... vote: rope

@BM: I concur with the question asked of you. Why are you voting gun for Detspeed? I believe it is reasonable to assume at this point that he is not oEJo's buddy, and is therefore immune to gun lynches.

[Kairyuu]

Drop away. Im pretty sure mine was L-1.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. That's fine. Scum hammering scum is all good. You're next.

[Kairyuu]

Of course, I just

had

to die as soon as I started to really have fun with this game.

Bah.

Good luck town. Hope to play with many of you again.

[Kairyuu]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Loved the game bird!

@all: I think this is probably the most accurate I have ever been in a game so far. I accused 5 people of being scum, and 4 of them were the 4 scum. Only thing I didn't get was the allegiance of two of them.

-is happy-