Gnosia Game over!

[Marashu]

I got the character I asked for, so I'm content about that. Slightly against character claims since it's not AI anyway and it might let anti-town guess at who has what skills.

In case there's a lie detector skill out there, stating outright that I win with town.

[Marashu]

This is a Cop/Doc open setup, which lends themselves well to Follow the Cop strategies.

The game also happens to be multi-ball with the inclusion of the Bug.

I would like to make a proposal to the Gnosia team in their help in eradicating the Bug threat together.

I figure that eliminating the Bug first would raise both of our team's winning chances.

No flips means that we need to watch for CC's. If there is a CC, scum NK'ing a cop basically confirms the cop. I'm not sure that Follow the Cop works here. Also scum can't NK Bug, so what do you mean that you want their help?

@Mod - can Gnosia self-target their NK?

[Marashu]

Also scum can't NK Bug, so what do you mean that you want their help?

I want them to no kill until the Bug is killed.

There are no flips, so how would we know that the bug is killed?

[Marashu]

State your human.

I am human

[Marashu]

though it was kinda a strange way for marashu to phrase it due to saying town as opposed to humans but ehhh feels fairly interchangeable to me

Wanted to say it that way because at the time I didn't know whether or not there's a lie detector (to be fair, I still don't) and wanted to cover for bug/traitor coming up human in case it's an actual lie detector and not just saying you're human. Don't know if it's NK15's actual skill or if it's a bluff, but I lose nothing by going along with that as well.

FakeGod's intro is giving me +traitor vibes.

[Marashu]

Presumed all char abilities 1-shot.

Let's fire ability which basically disables anonymous voting in FIRST DAY.

It's not like we needed it... Ugh like LATER when mafia really will try to force their way with votes and possible high stakes?

Looks like excuse to not use it in more useful way.
Because ONLY MAFIA benefits from anonymous voting.


Also by anonymous i mean any voting mechanism where votes not revealed or not revealed instantly.

I disagreed at first, but now that I think about it, I'm more inclined to agree here. Today's the only day that will require majority instead of plurality, and maf are the only ones who know how many maf are left, so sneaking in a late-game block vote even when you don't have majority could be huge.

[Marashu]

I think NM didn't use ability and just bait reactions.

To which I say, even if it's a bluff, what do you have to lose by going along with it?

While those are fair points, Gnosia could also save it for later to secure a potential quick hammer. And I do think it's helpful that everyone will be forced to show their hand early and vote instead of just claiming FoS on certain slots.

If the user is town, then yes they probably should've waited. But I do think that crew is more likely to use it now, especially after the conversation about tracking FoS/vote intents happened.

exactly, I think is more town intention than scum intention, if a scum used it well... thank you very much for throwing is what I feel

tbh bug and traitor have no reason to hang on to it.

[Marashu]

Unless it's being used by maf to find the bug and get pseudo-clears for partners. But like, ok? Then what?

[Marashu]

I guess they also don't need to use it at all, but they don't have the benefits of fasthammer because they don't know the gamestate as the game progresses with regards to their wincon. And because they aren't informed (and in the case of bug, don't necessarily need to solve), forcing people to show their hands early doesn't help or hinder their chances no matter when they use it, so why not use it right away?

PEdit Well then.

[Marashu]

If we can get Enchant and NK15 to agree to investigate the same person, we might be able to start clearing. If they disagree, that could be telling, too (especially as the night kills add up). At the very least, N1 the GA will know who that is, so it's also risky for maf to NK the invest target.

[Marashu]

why'd u take ur vote off nk15; u think we're partners? try scum hunting instead malding so i can decide my opinion

Why are you letting others scumhunt so you can just sit back and decide?

VOTE: shiki

Was this an RVS vote?

I can understand your point on being skeptical about both cop claims, especially since at the time of posting not everyone had reacted yet. I don't follow what comes after, though, especially:

if i were engineer i wouldn't claim here. i doubt we'll reach end of phase without one of them walking back their claim. if one of them dies during the night w/o that happening we know they're both town cuz scum doesn't want to get rid of that kind of wifom.

I'm not seeing any attempt to sort in your posts.

VOTE: narrow parking

[Marashu]

but also maybe not known 15 and enchant going to stick to their claims and then we have little choice but to choose between whether today or in future

We'll need to eat that frog eventually but I'm very much against choosing between one of them today. I'd rather that we leash them so we can make the most out of the cop.

[Marashu]

My only concern was that your ability is a One shot. Which I'm assuming it's not by how you are talking. That's my biggest concern with this game

Abilities in the source material(yes I know it) are usually

not

one-shot. I'll explain later. For now please follow the instructions.

This has me a bit concerned to be honest, because you're bringing up source, but in source the ability you are using is one of the few that IS one-shot per cycle. I think by now the people who would do it without needing explanation have already done so. I would love to hear some sort of explanation.

[Marashu]

i

what do you

make of klick

seemingly being unaware that gnosia don’t have daytalk

while discussing what elmo would be likely/unlikely to fake as mafia

ie do you think klick would be likely to fake this as mafia

/

cheeky enough to do so while talking about what mafia would be likely to fake?

question also open to others i suppose

slightly +scum but mostly NAI for Klick - why bring up the maf PT unless for the purpose of townslipping? +town for shiki noticing though.

[Marashu]

Hey fakegod, considering this is a follow-the-cop game where scum have no day chat for tpr hunting, I thought it might be especially pro town of me if I pointed out that I noticed you are probably a vt. I encourage everyone to voice in on this so we can "generate" some "information."

Don't mind me, just engaging in regular pro town behavior.

is the main issue simply that i believe it is pro-town for everyone to claim day one?

because this is true of me as a player - i have claimed day one plenty of times dating all of the way back to one of my first games on site (as team rocket queen - i think it was newbie 1992 - sorry on phone) with marashu where i trueclaimed mason in my first post (though in a semi-deniable way by referencing another player’s intro) and i have also suggested early massclaims various times on various accounts sometimes even pushing for them often unsuccessfully

and!

more applicable to this setup in particular,

my very first introduction to mafia was through twitchtv dailymafia

where the main format was

cop
doctor
vts
mafia

no flips no daytalk

and the ‘breaking strategy’ in that format was day one massclaim

prevents massive amounts of wasted time / gets all of town to solve in the actually possible worlds / narrows mafia options

and that format shares a lot of similarities with this one,

so!

like if the problem is that you disagree with this sure you’re not alone but it kinda feels like you just want to say it’s mafia indicative

Oh, didn't know this was an alt. Yeah, that was my first game on-site.

I think the key factor about claiming in this game is how well scum can CC. That said, with the way that invest was handled, anti-town would need to double-down on coroner, and with an uncountered cop, that's sortable. Masons can claim when they feel like it, since that can't be counter-claimed anyway. So now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably better if we get coroner to come out before maf can coordinate.

[Marashu]

Why do you want the coroner to come out?

Our guardian angel is going to be on the cop claim. Coroner will just get shot.

To reduce scum claimspace

[Marashu]

I would like to hear what he has to say.

About what, specifically? About my stance on coroner? Sure. I think that, if coroner claims and there are no cc's then it means that scum won't be able to cc it later. Let's say nobody cc's the claim. Town has 2 confirmed members, with 2 more hidden as masons. From my point of view that means of the 10 remaining players, half are evil, town will be able to trust results, and scum will be forced into VT claims because claims after D1 shouldn't be trusted (in case the real PR was killed in the night).

If there is a cc, that locks at least one anti-town, maybe more. In this scenario scum likely won't kill the coroner - killing one confirms the dead one was not scum and was not bug, so it's either real coroner or AC follower (1 for 1 with the traitor may not be optimal so I can see some arguments on that point, but it's also not a terrible exchange). If there are 3 or 4 claimed doctors, it becomes more complicated to resolve or trust the results of any one coroner, but also gives us targets for the engineer. In the CC variation there's also a possibility where an unclaimed mason is voted out (which I don't think is a bad thing so long as the other mason isn't NK'd) and a fake coroner says that they were scum, only to have the living mason reveal. But that's more of a dream scenario and one that I don't think will happen.

Having said the above, I can understand the coroner being hesitant to claim, but I find it very, very interesting that no scum (AC Follower, Bug, or Gnosia) have tried to fake claim coroner to force a counter-claim. My guess is they (groupscum specifically for this point) aren't coordinated and didn't prepare for counter-claims and at least some of them are not familiar enough with source to have seen how the extra claims adds doubt and makes it tough for town to solve. Either that, or they decided ahead of time to lay low and hide among the VTs, but I think that is pretty unlikely.

----

I forget if I said this before but right now I have NK15, shiki, Roden, Enchant as town.

People who can sort Elmo from what's been posted deserve a medal. I'm not really getting anything from this slot.

@Ranger, I've been meaning to ask. I know your frequent read lists is something you say you do for yourself, but is it something you're just doing this game or have you done it before?

It's been days and I'm still not quite sure I understand NK15's character ability (or more specifically what benefit it is supposed to provide). That said, I'm looking at Freedom's ability claim. I haven't seen any randomness anywhere else in the game beyond role distribution, so consider me skeptical. I'm not really seeing anything from Freedom that seems scummy, though, beyond that unprompted claim.

answer the question

claim all characters?

yay
nay
shut up

Ehhhh, still slightly against, but not strongly enough to argue against it if other people are doing it.

[Marashu]

@Mod

What happens if we reach deadline and there's a tie? Will we do a revote like if the ability was not activated?

[Marashu]

I have thoughts on that but don't want to volunteer helpful info to the maf

[Marashu]

It seems I'll have to decide the freeze. Just give me a small bit of time...

VOTE: Marashu

Cool. It's follow the cop right now anyway so I really don't mind. We probably have plenty of time before replacements, so what would you like from me for now? Character claim? Full claim? You can go back a page to see where I'm at with reads, nothing's really changed.

[Marashu]

I apologize, Roden. I'm frustrated that you are not seeing what I'm seeing, so I'm going to try to explain my thoughts as clearly as I can.

I think Coroner will be shot if he claims because out of the two claimed roles (Cop and Coroner), Guardian Angel will likely protect the Cop because it is a much stronger role. Therefore, Mafia will shoot the Coroner who will have no protection.

You're assuming that:

1) Doctor doesn't get CC'd

2) Gnosia would prefer to play in a game state with four confirmed crew (Engineer, Doctor, Guard Duty) while we play Follow The Cop

3) Gnosia see Doctor as a bigger threat than hunting for the GA

4) The entire Gnosia team doesn't understand the set up and play this extremely suboptimally

If you actually think all of the above is true...then what is the issue? If Doctor isn't CC'd and gets killed tonight, that's an extra day that we can play Follow The Cop. And if it's confirmed that the Gnosia team don't know how to play this set up, then it greatly reduces the PoE for the Engineer to check people at night while also reducing the PoE for us to scum hunt during the Day.

Roden gets it

[Marashu]

Um, ok. Sure. I'll have that for you this evening.

[Marashu]

Working on this has made me remember why I don't do this anymore and how much I dislike doing it (and also how draining it is). My pace is about a paragraph an hour between re-reading, cross-referencing posts to see what they meant in context of when they were posted, and writing, and I'm not even done the ISO for the first player in my list. Ugh.

So I'm just gonna claim. VT, character is the unnamed Protag (specifically The Player). Ability is Self-Learning, which really just means I'm a universal character ability backup. It's for the first player who dies, so normally the first elim, but if we go to deadline with a draw, I'd inherit the skill of the first player to get NK'd instead. Since most abilities are likely at night anyway, I wouldn't really be adding any extra shots to the pool unless no elim D1 AND somehow no NK N1, so losing this N1 really isn't a big deal imo, since it just guarantees that whoever the first player to get eliminated is still gets their ability in the game. Also could be used to verify a character ability claim, but I think that boat has sailed. All in all as Day 1 miselims go mine's pretty safe.

I'll keep working on my detailed ISO list until bed, then when I get up and during my breaks at work tomorrow, assuming I'm still alive. I don't know how helpful this is going to be, though, but I'll keep working on it.