Family Guy Mafia - Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

/confirm

[LlamaFluff]

/confirmsh!

Sho...I wash jusht thinking...thatsh maybe I should

Votesh farside

SHE'S OBVSH SHCUM!

Is this a post restriction?

vote Hybris

for being avatarless

[LlamaFluff]

Right. Any chance we'll get anything done this day 1? Nooo? Are you sure?

Ah well, I can deal with it.

Well you can try and get something started...

[LlamaFluff]

Non post restricted people should neither be acting like they have post restrictions or acting like characters. It will only manage to end badly.

@Zilla - How serious was that vote of yours?

[LlamaFluff]

the rest of my post is simply flavor analysis, and checking the possibility of Tom being scum as far as the flavor works.

Why is this a good thing?

I have a mod standard that alignment should not be able to be determined by character claim, and try and make a character claim hurt the town more then scum. When we have factors such as character name added into a game, we start making assumptions (both correct and incorrect) about who is scum and who is town. This can be used by skilled scum to fuel mislynches, and steer away attention from scum buddies. If you are trying to analyze flavor, you need to remember that people interpret flavor differently at times, and that can lead to a downfall if you have two people calling the same thing two entirely different things.

Things like character and flavor only serve a distraction this early in the game, and trying to exploit it to create discussion that does not pretain to someone being scummy, is in itself a scummy thing to do.

If you did not know anyones character right now, who would you suspect? Why are you not suspicious of FL who has a post restriction so is acting like a character?

@Post Restricted Players - Is there any way to eventually lose your restriction or is it a game long one?

[LlamaFluff]

Either way, I feel relatively safe sticking up for KMD at this point, I don't see any reason to implicate him other than having a post restriction so far, but if he makes a slip, I'll be all over him.

The question wasnt who looks town. The question is who looks scummy?

[LlamaFluff]

EBWOP

And why. You really have elaborated on PP enough for me to see why you think he is scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets try this then: Why are you voting PP?

[LlamaFluff]

I was hoping for Zilla to answer that, and with more sound logic. The first quote was the third actual post of the game, so not scummy. The second post was still on the first actual page, while a little odd to hop wagons, still not sound reason to be voting.

If we were attempting to lynch someone hiding in plain sight, Zilla is the right lynch given all the character talk makes the illusion of being an active participant helping the game, while hinders it in actuallity.

i am keeping my vote on Hybris though, who still has not called anyone scummy at all, and has spent more time defending other players then doing anything else.

[LlamaFluff]

So, I'm effectively being called scummy for

not

participating in the random voting stage?
I can kinda see the overall logic, but I'm not sure how this doesn't apply to lots of the other people who only voted randomly.

I think we are out of the random stage at this point, when you made your third and forth post, they were bringing up reasoning for votes, which means there is evidence, which means we are no longer in the random stage of the game.

This means that there is reasoning for votes, and I am asking you who you see as most likely to be scum out of the information we have so far gathered.

[LlamaFluff]

I'll chalk you up to being a pushy townie for now, Llama, but IGMEOY.

Just establishing the pecking order

In all seriousness though, I dont think you really have much of a case on PP, and the attempt to justify the existance of one is coming off as scummy to me. More so when you mix in all the flavor and character-alignment pairing you have done.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't mind llama asking questions. That's good. I wonder why he's not voting zilla since he seems to have a problem with her, but w/e.

Because I have problem with Hybris too right now. Its a debate of is Zilla who is distracting or Hybris who is blatantly not scumhunting scummier.

[LlamaFluff]

First, in regards to "character-alignment pairing", the only thing I said on this was that I didn't believe Tom Tucker to be FCC aligned. I said he may be self-aligned at worst, I didn't say he WAS self-aligned. The purpose of this statement was that, although he wouldn't be FCC, he could still be scum by being self-aligned, meaning to keep our options open.

Discounting players as scum for claiming a role is something that should never be done. If a mod makes a theme game well enough, mass character claim should not give an edge to the town, and I feel should be benificial to the scum. I dont care what character a player claims, what I care about is what their role is more then anything else.

And then my next post, I recounted the position that "Tom is not FCC" on the grounds that character doesn't indicate alignment, as I've grown more used to from the last few games I'd played offsite.

How many games did you play between these two statements then?

I talked about flavor.
I'm voting Puta on a "weak" argument.

You also should realize that

I am not voting you

. I do consider each of these things scummy, but you are calling me scum for running you up on weak logic when I am not voting you right now.

I'll admit there's not much Puta's giving us, but I can't say I have a stronger position on him now because he hasn't given us anything to go on since random stage. I have a knack for picking up scum through the random stage though, and your sideways OMGUS on me and defense of Puta make me feel justified. If Puta comes up scum, I know where to turn next.

This seems to be saying you are basing your vote partially on lurking. Looking at the player list I cant remember anything that TM, CC, TI, GS, MK or RF has said this game. If you are looking for people not participating, I dont think someone like PP is the best place to look. The people who are purposefully lurking will eventually be replaced or stand risk of getting killed either way soon enough too.

[LlamaFluff]

You know, I'm just done.

unvote
Vote: Zilla

You guys play way too deep that you're missing a lot of the surface stuff. This is likely my last post here, so I want to say when I die, don't let that clear anyone, but I seriously want Llama, Puta, and Mana Ku looked at.

If you are town, dont do this. Even if you are scum dont do this. Its not in the spirit of the game to just give up, regardless of alignment.

I still think that Hybris is the better lynch. He has gone AWOL in this game after making a few subtle defense posts, and I have seen him posting in other sections of this site. Mix that with the fact that I dont think he has presented anything on any player for the entrie game, I am much happier with my vote there then a vote on Zilla.

[LlamaFluff]

Grr kmd stealing my thunder on the Hybris case *raises fists*

Its a good vote though, lurkers really need to come back though and give input since we have had two wagons now.

[LlamaFluff]

Ooooh but "His earlier posts don't just go away" ooooooo!!!

And if I've learned anything, you CAN'T AFFORD TO BE WRONG.

Its like this to me; No matter what you say it can be used against you in the game. A bad phrased line, a horrible idea, or a scummy move is all fair game. Asking something to be ignored will never happen, and is scummier then the action that is in question at times. If we were able to 100% clear things from the record, scum could always get away with things just by apologizing, saying it was stupid, and moving on.

I dont think what you have done so far is a really townie game, but I dont think it really merits as many votes as you have, especially when compared with players like Hybris.

@pacman - AWOL is Absent Without Leave, just a way of saying not here.
@internet - do you have anything of merit to add to this game? Also can you explain your vote to me.
@people with randoms still - Why are you still in the random stage?
@non voters - Who is scummy to you?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm still thinking about who is seeming scummy and who isn't. I'm not exactly seeing anybody who I'm thinking of as really scummy right now, and thus I haven't said much to contribute. That simple enough?

Is anyone sort of scummy then?

[LlamaFluff]

Heh... imagining Zilla/PP doing a peter/chicken fight.

PP does need to contribute though, as does another five or six people. Too many people are just drifitng along either parroting opinions or not even giving any.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont really get the wolf votes here. The argument is there, but its a streach, especially since the wording that he used is pretty natural and I have used it (or similar phrases) as town quite a few times.

The move to wolf, especially as Hybris is continually more scummy, just is odd.

[LlamaFluff]

vote: Hybris

for getting all up in my grill.

Is this seriously it?

Lurkers like you and TI are almost starting to look like good alternatives when your only comments are scummy.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm saying you're not going to get anywhere through the lurking argument, because even before now, Hybris wasn't truly lurking. The point to address is the intent and content of Hybris's posts. The point of Hybris lurking is a dead-end, it's not inherently scummy enough to hold weight, and it wasn't demonstrated strongly enough in the thread to hold weight. It's better to focus on what was said than how much.

Actually I think the lurking argument in certain conditions, the main one being activity on other parts of the site, is a valid tell, while lurking in its own is not since RL does effect posting rate. I have found that newer players tend to lurk more in a specific game when they come under pressure, especially as scum. The newbie games I have been in are a great example of that, as in each game there was a scum lynch where the player dissapeared when they were under pressure for a period of time.

The lurkers and the people who still seem stuck in the random phase really need to do something though or there time in the game should and probably will be cut short.

I still dont like the wolf wagon too much since it sounds like something I say all the time, and I even think that I said something similar earlier and it never was mentioned.

[LlamaFluff]

Does anybody know the deadline?

What are you doing really? It seems like you are intentionally avoiding discussion of the game saying you will get around to it tomorrow, at this rate I would be fine with you not seeing a D2.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote, vote The Internet

This guy is just being willfully unhelpful and scummy. He says he has no strong feelings for the lynch, is looking to the deadline to end the day, yet is voting and not presenting a case. Its time to actually give some opinions or perish like the rest of the lurkers. When you are trying to end the day though you are the best lynch out of them though.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, I'd like to hear why Charter/Hybris/Wolfram are less worthy of lynching than The Internet.

I may nnot be in the most logical state of mind at the time, but charter-wolf I really think are both being idiots. They are both now claiming that the other incorrectly called Hybris town and are trying to get the other lynched. Talking regualrly, I have called people town in this sense before, and think I called you town this way in this game.

Hybris has come back a bit after a lurker spell, and is starting to look more town. They still need to present a worth while case, but with the people who are being willfully unhelpful in this game, they pass Hybris in the scummy catagory from where I am right now. If no one goes for the TI lynch though, Hybris is still a valid move. I dont see any solid reasoning for a wolf/charter lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Hybris, to answer a question directed to another player is never a good thing,

especially if you are town.

unvote, vote wolf

Oh snaps I found two more scum charter

I was thinking charter was town until he pulled the stint of blatant hypocrisy that I quoted. That's a stupid thing to do,

especially if you are town.

Zilla, I wouldn't use a line like that,

especially if you are town

.

This tell I really dont see at all... its something that people say naturally.

[LlamaFluff]

But llama, you see, we have no reason to say that, especially as town. So if you vote us, you know we are town and that makes you scum.

Maybe I will understand this in the morning (maybe its sarcasam?), but I will go ahead and say what I think about this tell. There are such things as legitimate slip tells in saying who is town, they are few and far in between since scum and town do call people town in these games. Just jumping on someone saying something like this is pretty weak. I dont see any good reason to go through with a lynch based on this quote, given that on the last page two other players have said it. Maybe if charter can explain the difference between the two quotes, I will turn around (probably not though). I just dont like this tell compared with most of the other ones that have been hit in this game.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm shupposed to be poshting drunkenly

Is that the jist of the PR? Seems alittle vague to me. I'm not necessarily saying you made it up, but I am saying you should be able to tone it the fuck down.

Its easy to read really, not a contraining one at all even, more of a role playing one.

Its nice to hear your thoughts on the game though...

[LlamaFluff]

Charter isnt lurking...

A quick case on The Internet though, ironically it will have more content then all his posts combined.

TI right now still has his random vote out, which in itself is scummy given that further justification then the inital reasoning for the vote has occured. I have no real answer to the question "Why is TI voting MK?", which should never happen.

Apart from MK who is scum for being in another game with TI as far as I can tell, there is an interest with Zilla. Zilla is called suspicious for being aggressive early (but the vote is still on MK). Later TI takes a fence sitting stance on Zilla by liking what she is saying, but not being credible thanks to the mini-breakdown that occured. Right now TI has Zilla as "frustrated townie", which is the only read on anyone that has been expressed this entrie game.

Currently TI seems more interested on when the day is going to end, then actually doing any scumhunting of his own, or even commenting on the scumhunting that anyone else has done in this game. His vote is on MK right now when no case against her has been presented by him this entire game.

Not scumhunting to the extent that TI is normally is enough for a vote at this point in the game, when it is mixed with his wierd intrest with a deadline though, the vote becomes more of a no brainer to me.

@Charter - I still dont see it. How is it different then the other quotes that used the exact same phrasing that I pointed out?

[LlamaFluff]

...I hate arguments about this stuff since I never really get it. Tone of a post I can work with usually, but this... I may be a little chicken to act on it today given how much else looks like better lynches, but I guess it will be proven soon enough though. If I am right though I get an "I told you so".

[LlamaFluff]

none cuz i don't care about this game, sry

Being replaced (forcibly if needed) is the best option then.

@llama

If you answered my question to you earlier i didn't see it so sorry if i am repeating something you lready answered, but do you think there is a difference between TI's posts and lack thereof, and Xtoxm's posts?

xtoxm is at least giving us some thoughts. As much as I may disagree with his votes, there is some tangible things there that we can look back at later in the game. Maybe some of his reads being similar to mine help that a bit, but its mostly that he is actually contributing, even if it isnt to the extent that most others are.

[LlamaFluff]

At this point in time we should not be trying to figure out who it is an alt of, or even commenting on why they are playing as an alt. It has nothing to do with someone being scummy or not so doesnt have a place in the game.

Some better topics of conversation would be

-Wolf/Charter arguement as wolf is now a top vote getter
-Zilla voting and unvoting TI in the same post
-Prodding the lurkers
-PP wagon gaining steam

Now to practice what I preach

@Zilla - Why did you feel the need to vote for and unvote TI in your last post without giving any real reasons for the vote?

[LlamaFluff]

It still doesnt matter. We still should be scumhunting instead of doing this.

[LlamaFluff]

CoheedCambria, u seemed to completely abandon ur inquiry of KMD once my wagon gained steam and note that almost half the posts you made in this game are Voting posts...also please elaborate on what you mean by 'my actions'?

At times it sure is confusing when the person who seems to be breaking apart comes up with some decent stuff. Although why do you have xtoxm/wolf as your 1/2 when they are pushing eachother to so much of an extent?

[LlamaFluff]

Still think that we should be lynching TI. I dont get the case on wolf (xtoxm as well) still, but soon enough that seems like it will be proven. While I dont really like all of what I have seen from PP, the point against CC is a decent one, and at least he is now being slightly helpful.

Thats just my two cents though, people are still letting TI get away with doing nothing and given next to no reads on players.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, I feel like I am asking this question in every game. What does differentiate the Internet* from other possible more suspicious, IMO, candidates?
*To be honest I didnt even realize he was in this game until those posts.

I would classify the lurkers of this game TM, TI, CC and pacman.

Pacman has given some thoughts on the game, calling PP and Zilla suspicious. CC has been all over the place but still giving some reasoning for his votes.

This makes TM and TI the most harcore lurkers. TM has been commenting on the game (with suspicions) at least, while that really isnt too much, its more then TI has been doing. TI has been just giving neutral stances on what he does bother to comment on with the exception of when he finally was called out on it. There also were the comments asking about deadline when he had done nothing to increase the pace of the game.

He isnt the only suspicious lurker, but he is the scummiest one.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama
Ive seen both TM and TI lurk in some games I am/was with them. I usually hate lynching people for lurking but can you show that neutral stance you are talking about?

I'm uneasy about Zilla's agressiveness. I can understand being agressive, but doing it this early is unusual.

Zilla is aggressive, no read from it.

I agree with some of the thing zilla is saying, but he just took a massive credibility hit with that outburst.

Zilla is saying good things, but doesnt have credibility

I don't really have any strong feelings about the lynch for today, but that could change. Day 2 is where it'll get interesting.

No explaination needed

A few reads I've gotten:
Zilla: strong pro town feelings, verbose, inquisitive.
Hybris: Again, verbose, analytical. Got into large argument with Zilla early, but appears to have gotten over it.
charter: prone to analysis, but logic is frequently controversial. Mildly scummy.
Xtoxm: seems to be normal, but others accuse him of play contrary to meta. Will investigate further
puta puta: incosistent, seemingly random play. Could be scum, but play is unorthodox, to say the least.
Tony Montana: Lurker, does not contribute much. OMGUS makes him seem scummy.

Town on Zilla, scum on TM (no vote though). Hybris (no read given), charter (mild read), xtoxm (normal) and PP (could be) all are weak reads though.

[LlamaFluff]

hi i'm here. fill me in plz.

People are still debating if wolf is scum or not, some people are calling charter scum for the case. I am trying to push a internet lynch. xtoxm and zilla are taking a little bit of suspicion. There seems to be an unusually high ammount of votes on Hybris given that no one is calling him scum.

Things are starting to visably stall out though, and its starting to look like we are on the road to deadline lynch which would be pretty disappointing.

[LlamaFluff]

Hybris is scum.

Thanks for being stubborn. How about some drawn out reasoning now since Hybris' case seems to be lacking it for the most part.

[LlamaFluff]

vote: Hybris

for getting all up in my grill.

Anything added to this at least? Seems odd to be putting a guy at vote leader for this weak of reasoning.

[LlamaFluff]

No. I'm a firm believer in the effectivness of OMGUS votes.

So why shouldnt we just kill you right now? TI is starting to do stuff, you are trying to be as unhelpful as possible

[LlamaFluff]

I am so tempted to lynch Puta based simply on anti-town ass-holeness.

If you want to lynch someone unhelpful you lynch TM. PP at least brought up a good point againts CC, right now TM has a random vote out on the highest vote getter and shows no intention of removing it or doing any scumhunting.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote TonyMontana

Talk, contribute, die. Your choice really. Keeping a vote on the leader with zero reasoning is a big no though.

[LlamaFluff]

Knock out 2 birds with 1 stone. Look at mini 628 and you have scum meta on both Llama and myself. He was so "pro-town" in that game that he easily rode to engame and won it for us.

Heh, im always pro-town. I think im at 14 games that I am dead in and only was lynched in one.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, that's my point. I always have that feeling in the back of my head that you are scum even with pro-town posts.

Yeah I realize it and all, just always is a little bit annoying that I get hit with "you always look town, so looking town doesnt make you town" logic in some games.

That said, good wagons today would be Tony, TI, and if nothing happens with either of those, maybe CC. Wagons of people like wolf and charter really dont make too much sense to me. They are just stuck in arguments over wording which I really dont think holds much water, or justifies a D1 lynch. While an alignment there would be nice to obtain, its not where to look today.

Zilla and Hybris are slightly town to me, and I am wary of their wagons given that most pushing has stopped for these people, but they still have a decent ammount of votes. When people are kept at high vote numbers while being more or less ignored, it just seems like someone wants them to appear the comprimise and fallback wagons of the day.

So yeah - Tony is the best wagon. TI and CC look good. There really isnt enough of a case on anyone else to intrest me at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

On Llama, I get that faint scum nagging feeling. There's this undertone of control in some posts, but that's faded recently, but that's also all the more worrying. I don't put it past him to be scum.

<3 If there is a undertone of control its because its what im striving for. I am much more comfortable when I have more control over a game, just because that way I can get people to listen to me.

I dont think the Hybris-TM connection is too great. The "slip" PP is voting TM for is pretty weak, especially compared to the other "slips" that have been discussed this game.

[LlamaFluff]

The whole argument over T/D is pointless and distracts from conversation at hand. I realize that some sites put some backing to "honestly claiming pro-town", I dont in the least bit, and I doubt many people here do. Same goes for the T/D answer which is more of a loaded and WIFOM question then anything else.

We are again getting distracted from the main point at hand which is scumhunting. So please, no more debates over the whole T/D thing, as they are anti-town and hold absolutely zero wieght (argueably negative) in a case against a player. We are around a week to deadline, and this is not the way to be spending it with a holiday coming up where many people are going to be inactive.

[LlamaFluff]

The follwing post is sponserd by vodka! "Vodka - Taste the Russai!"

We now return you to our program - I dont get the charter hate here. While I may not be int otal agreement about his view of wold, specificaly regarding the fact that he is the corect lynch for the day, it still is something he is persuing and passionate about, so that at least make s him semi-town in my mind. While I dont think that wold should be a lynch even considered for this day, I think people who are going to just be an anchor while action scummy should be the lynch. This includes the pool of people like TM, TI and CC. One of these should be the lynch today, 100%. It will cut down on the players who are just dragging us down later, while taking out someone who has a very legitimate shout of flipping scum. Tomorrow I will clear up anything that isnt reall y undesandable in this post.

Quite happy with the vote on TM. The fact that this wagon took off while TI never went anywhere is a bit uncomfortable though. @All TM voters - Why vote TM when the TI wagon went nowhere.

The predicing message has been sponsered by vokda - "Taste the Russia"

[LlamaFluff]

I'm

greased up deaf guy

, townie.

Would of prefered if this didnt happen untill people addressed the last part o my last post about voting you instead of TI. This compicates things a bit. Just to be sure though, thats a vanilla claim instead of just a pro-town one.

[LlamaFluff]

The whole argument over T/D is pointless and distracts from conversation at hand. I realize that some sites put some backing to "honestly claiming pro-town", I dont in the least bit, and I doubt many people here do. Same goes for the T/D answer which is more of a loaded and WIFOM question then anything else.

We are again getting distracted from the main point at hand which is scumhunting. So please, no more debates over the whole T/D thing, as they are anti-town and hold absolutely zero wieght (argueably negative) in a case against a player. We are around a week to deadline, and this is not the way to be spending it with a holiday coming up where many people are going to be inactive.

But we can lynch scum. Don't you want to lynch scum?

I will try and make this clear. I will 100% ignore any parts of a case against someone in this game that are using T/D as part of the reasoning as to why they are scum. Pushing a case that uses this fully or in part makes you much more suspect then the player you are pushing this on.

[LlamaFluff]

T/D still is stupid. As scum I lie, win the game, people policy lynch for that in another game I go make an alt, lie again. Rinse and repeat. It also distracts from what we need to be talking about which is TM, and why his wagon took off when the wagon against TI which was made for primarily the same reasons went nowhere.

[LlamaFluff]

This includes the pool of people like TM, TI and CC. One of these should be the lynch today, 100%.

I don't like this. This is the control I was talking about, and it's not a good kind of control. This makes me feel a scum vibe, especially since I don't get a strong feeling from any of those three aside from being non contributing, and it also ignores others that have just as much (or even more) case on them, like Xtoxm, Puta, Pacman, kloud, lately BlakAdder, and, honestly, Wolf's infrequent snippets.

Well we had TI trying to rush the day, CC is scummy for the reasons that PP already mentioned, TM for being probably the most anti-town out of the players in the game action wise. It took us putting him at L-3 before we got a LoS even.

I dont see how you have Pacman and Kloud at scum at all really. The rest I can see where suspicions come from but those two just confuse me more then anything else.

In the end though I would rather just kill off someone who isnt and wont be helping today over someone who is around the same scummy level, but at least will be useful later in the game. We will get more information from the lynch today, as well as whatever kills we have at night. Once we have alignments I think the players in your second list deserve more of a readthrough.

Also, I still dont get how "controlling" is a scumtell to you. Go look at just about any game I have played, and I have the exact same style. Part of this game is getting people to listen to what you have to say, and being in a position where what you say gets recognized and responded to easier is something that I always try to have happen.

[LlamaFluff]

It also distracts from what we need to be talking about which is TM, and why his wagon took off when the wagon against TI which was made for primarily the same reasons went nowhere.

And are you just raising questions to seem like you're not supporting my lynch, while still having a vote on me?

I am partially in the playstyle of "lynch vanilla claims" except for certain situations like family guy mini where the vanilla claim was on a weak case and the situation made it pretty obviously genuine. This is why I got pretty pissed when you claimed vanilla as early as you did.

Lets say we wagon TI. Best case scenario, we lynch scum. Lets look at other things though, lets say TI is town. We now have a vanilla living through the night, PR pool shrinks.

I saw the wagon build fast when compared to the TI, which is why I commented on it. You claiming though just threw me off and really destroyed a lot of options in my mind about exploring why this occured.

@Zilla - Kloud got replaced, is he still suspicious?

@KoC - My meta is fairly constant with a few exceptions that I am working on fixing. If you want I can link you to some town games of mine. The fact that 2/3 of my scum games have been linked already here just is wierd.

[LlamaFluff]

A lot of his posts seem to be fill-in-the-blank, which makes him unaccountable, and further makes him seem smart and right because you're projecting your own conclusions onto him.

Quite a bit of what I try to accomplish is keeping other players accountable for what they are doing, and stopping them from doing things that are going to hurt the town. I know a lot of it is general knowlegde and personal play opinion, but it is a help.

Ignoring the fact that I have pushed more in the form of cases though then most other people though is not something I am going to let you do. So far I feel that I have accomplished more then most of the other players in the game in the area of pushing for lynches of who I think is scummy.

I find it interesting that the votes that are on Tony are some of the people we considered suspect as well, such as Coheed&Cambria, Puta, Porochaz... Basically ones that were accused of being scummy regardless of lurking.

Well CC is lurking... PP to an extent but not as much. I dont really understand why you are buying into the Poro case at all, if anything it makes kmd scummier for trying to push that type of "game breaking" logic that relies on scum being honest in a mafia game. What I said about the TM wagon is true though, and I am pissed at him for claiming when he did, since it hurts the town if he is scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Well my theory on claims is "The closer it is to deadline, the higher the chance that a vanilla town claim is a true claim"

This is true given that
- Town is assured to not hit power
- There is no way a vanilla claim will derail a wagon
- Scum knows a vanilla has a lower chance of saving them so wont claim it
- Town wont fakeclaim
- Vanilla claims get lynched

Now you did not need to claim when you did, a week from deadline we dont need a claim from you when you are at L-3. If you had a PR, then maybe its an acceptable time to claim, however this is already proven false. You had to know that the claim would not save you, so I dont get why you would of outed yourself with a vanilla claim when you did.

So you outed a role that is not a threat to scum, which hurts the town by decreasing the PR pool, at a time that it was not needed, when defending or making a case would of likely cleaned up a few of the votes.

What is killing me is I think that this is a real claim, but I dont want to turn this into family guy mini that had five claims D1 due to people wagoning power and other incedents. So I am thinking about this quite a bit right now.

[LlamaFluff]

Well my theory on claims is "The closer it is to deadline, the higher the chance that a vanilla town claim is a true claim"

Well my theory on it, any closer to deadline and there would have been zero chance of reversal. Would you refute that a vanilla claim a day before deadline would be followed by anything but a hammer?

Well you could see the early stages of apprehension in my 776 where I brought up the difference between wagons. Also you claimed about a week untill deadline, that was plenty of time for something else to happen. I agree that you would of been hammered a day before deadline with a vanilla claim, hence my theory as scum know a vanilla claim get them killed.

I just am still a little pissed with the timing of that claim, especially after some thinking I dont doubt it.

unvote

There is much more thinking to be done about this wagon.

@All TM voters - Why TM over TI?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm voting TM over TI because in my opinion TM has been more openly scummy and antitown whereas TI is just lurking.

Show me how. TM is being anti-town, TI has been scummy, got pressured, contributed, wagon moved and then he buggered off again.

vote The Internet

CC isnt a bad wagon, but I think the difference between people saying TI is scummy but never acting on it makes him scummier when you compare him to people ignoring CC. Distancing by commenting instead of protection by ignoring. Wagons like wolf are really only more of a informational alignment wagon so arent good lynches.

[LlamaFluff]

Meh-reads like TI's usually come from newbie scum. Just a thought.

You are voting TM though.

This repitition of behavior coming from TI is good reason to be lynching him. He lurks and says some scummy things, gets pressured, makes some null/light reads on people, lurks again untill he gets votes.

It would be nice to see a LoS from him, a case, a vote. You know, things that most people should and are be doing.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama - TM is still my top suspect, but I'd be more than happy to get rid of TI if it comes down to him at L-1 with a few hours till deadline.

How is TM scummier then TI. I understand that he has been more anti-town, but I dont agree that he is being scummier then what TI has done. TI was completely quiet untill I started a wagon on him, now he is back contributing.

[LlamaFluff]

Tony and the Internet are both playing newbie style, but Tony's looking more and more scummy by the minute

Really? What makes you think TM looks like newbie scum as opposed to TI? From IC experiance, I see more newbie scum lurk off and stop contributed unless called on then what TM is doing.

[LlamaFluff]

TI is trying to be helpful, he doesn't quite know how and people are demanding things that he doesn't know how to provide, while Tony's been counterproductive and looks like he's just trying to do whatever it takes to allay suspicion.

TI only becomes helpful when people start voting him and calling him scummy. Go back and look at his history, every time I called him scum he started posting reads he has on players. Will you at least change your mind when TI votes TM in an attempt to save himself. TI needs to vote soon, so does Hybris.

Also these wagons are closer then they appear I think. I dont want to go indepth over why though since its not my doing that is causing this.

[LlamaFluff]

The rason that charte doesnt thin that xtoxm is scum is that xtoxm has the same viewpoint as cahrter. I dont know if this is genuine or noe but the fact that xtoxm has the same ideas as chater is making charter call xtoxm town. I just am not sure if xtoxm is town or not, the alignments of him and wolf would be fairly important to figuring out multiple alignments at this point.

Either way I like the TI lynch, reagardless of what Zilla has to say. I would say with +- 80% certainty that TM is telling the truth that he is vanilla. GIven the early rejection of the TI wagon, and how he is behaving, I liek taht wagon more.

[LlamaFluff]

The rason that charte doesnt thin that xtoxm is scum is that xtoxm has the same viewpoint as cahrter. I dont know if this is genuine or noe but the fact that xtoxm has the same ideas as chater is making charter call xtoxm town. I just am not sure if xtoxm is town or not, the alignments of him and wolf would be fairly important to figuring out multiple alignments at this point.

Either way I like the TI lynch, reagardless of what Zilla has to say. I would say with +- 80% certainty that TM is telling the truth that he is vanilla. GIven the early rejection of the TI wagon, and how he is behaving, I liek taht wagon more.

If all this wasn't obvious, it's true.

Huzah! Even whith drinks Im not worthless!

[LlamaFluff]

The rason that charte doesnt thin that xtoxm is scum is that xtoxm has the same viewpoint as cahrter. I dont know if this is genuine or noe but the fact that xtoxm has the same ideas as chater is making charter call xtoxm town.

Way to pull a Hybris, you know. You basically answered for Charter and BlakAdder and I were trying to get info out of him.

Its pretty straightforward really. Whens oemone agrees with you its natural to assume they share similar intentions. Town charter would assume people who think the same as him are town, scum charter would call people who think like him town for the same reasons.

I dont think lynching xtoxm/wolf today is the best move, although their alignments are looking increasingly benificial to obtain for the good of the town.

This question was pretty obvious though, from the first time it was asked I thought it was more rhetorical then anything else. People tend to be more comfortable with people who will agree with them. Its why fatcats have yes men, its why scum back townies, its how the human mind works.

[LlamaFluff]

Also PP got banned so I guess we need a replacement. Still think that TI should be lynched and people are underestimating how close these wagons are. If anyone else vote TI it should be time for a claim given the closeness of the wagons and the infrequent posts from TI.

[LlamaFluff]

If we have a replacement then I think its best to extend deadline a couple days. Especially with a close vote count.

[LlamaFluff]

Could spol, tajo, zilla, BA, kmd, hybris, pacman and TI explain why they are either voting for someone that isnt going to be lynched or not voting at all? Given that deadline at the latest is in about three and a half days, it doesnt make much sense, especially since there isnt a lot of talk about why we should be lynching these people instead of TM or TI.

TI really should think about claiming since I still dont think the vote count is as straightforward as it appears. I really dont want to out anyone, but this isnt looking like a two gap difference between TM and TI. I would say im about 80% sure on this.

[LlamaFluff]

The best lynch we can do if we want information to go on for tomorrow, is something up the ally of xtoxm or whoever replaced wolf. This probably isnt the best shot for scum though.

Still am thinking that TI is the best lynch for today (if he is scum KoC is a good place to look for a partner). The whole style of play from him is indicative of newbie scum. He early on started to lurk off, and eventually got called on doing so. Soon after he was back with more or less noncommital reads on a few players, pressure was let off, and he lurked again.

So while TI manages to avoid all major trains of conversation, he also doesnt even take a solid stance on any suspect, or bother to push a wagon. The blatant and opportune lurking mixed with the fact that even reading his posts I cant find a clear top scum suspect makes me think that he is the play for today, and will try and make that happen.

[LlamaFluff]

TI claim. I am pretty sure you are vote leader, lest we all forget that "votecounts can be decieving".

*Note I am NOT a double voter, but I think someone is manipulating these votes. If they want to claim it go ahead, but im not claiming for them.

[LlamaFluff]

vote count:

Xtoxm 1 vote: (BlakAdder, Zilla, Kmd4390)

Misprint?

Should be since right now TI would be deadline lynched even though the votes are tied.

[LlamaFluff]

And no, Llama, I will not claim yet, and I'm not vote leader.

Last game which was a mini had someone thats vote did not count, and someone was made into a double voter. I think that something similar is going on in this game, tubbys last vote should of tied the votes, and I think you still will get lynched at deadline untill you decide TM is "scummiest" and vote him out of self-preservation.

As long as the player who I think is doing this is still voting as they are, you may as well just add one to your wagon, or take one away from the TM wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

To LlamaFluff

You previously said you though the TM wagon was moving to fast to be a town supported wagon, but the next page my wagon picked up 3 votes. Do you consider that to be moving fast? You have said my posts are unclear and wishy washy for suspects, and avoid major conversation. Why do you believe that does not apply to TM? What is your evidence that a double voter exists (other than outguessing the mode) and what is your evidence he has placed his vote on me? How is the reason for your case of me of TM (my actions vary, but TMs are always antitown) different from the too scummy fallacy? Do you still maintain that I began contributing as soon as you started a wagon on me, even though I did not begin contributing until pages after the wagon? What type of contributions from me will you not view as scummy (you view contributions when a lynch gains as scummy)? Do you view TM's offer to self hammer as scummy?

I will answer as many of these as possible, but a lot of it comes down to "I believe TMs claim".

You wagon met with a lot more resistance then TIs is one of the reasons that I think the wagons are differnet alignments. I started the TM wagon without a whole lot of problems, but people arent willing to let go of that wagon in place of yours.

TM is just being annoyingly worthless, more of a future policy vig type player then anything else. You did give some opinions though, but it was hard to figure out solid opinions on most players. My notes already have five players 30% or less scum and five 70% or more, sure its based partially on gut reads, but after a 40 page game, you should have some sort of reads on most players. Being noncommital allows easier stance changes when you need it.

I dont want to talk about the reason I think votes are misleaning since the player obviously doesnt want this outed because they havent spoken up. In this game I think there is at least one person who is manipulating votes though, which is another reason I want a claim out of you, because one is putting you closer to a lynch. In the last game I was a player whos vote did not count at first, and that was only a 12 player game. Anyone who expects there to be no vote aid/restrictions here is ignorant.

What would be "non scummy" for contributions from you would be stuff that does not need to be prompted. A case, solid stances on more people, things of that nature. When it takes some sort of pressure to get something out of you...

TM offering to selfhammer is a scummy though, even though I still think he is vanilla.

I really think you should claim though, or at least cast your self-preservation vote already.

[LlamaFluff]

Deadline is in a little more then 24 hours. I still think that TI should claim/be lynched.

@TI - OR doesnt make you town since its a WIFOM situation. I could argue that OR means you are scum since its the simplest solution I come up with. I am about 75% sure though there is vote manipulation going on though making these wagons one vote closer. I would expect another voteless/double voter type combo as well, so it may be even closer.

[LlamaFluff]

charter being as sure as he is about wolf/NS is unsettling, and almost makes me want to just get that flip.

Cant say much more except I want the TI claim, and am much happier with his lynch then TMs lynch. Deadline is in about 20 hours though, if people are going to hop DO IT NOW. The last thing that should happen is a vote scramble, as those just help scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Its a visable one vote gap. I think its really a tied vote. Not to be repetitive, but please claim.

[LlamaFluff]

Half hour to deadline...

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Nitro Syles

Given that TI was scum and I think TM is town, I am much more willing to go along with this now. Kind of surprised that xtoxm flipped town actually, but it does add a little bit of force to the NS/Wolf case. Also yay to being alive D2, bumps my N1 death rate back below 50% though

I think we are looking at SK-FCC-vig killings here.

[LlamaFluff]

I would maybe put Prozac in there too. BA seemed a bit more townish to me given the timing of movements in between the xtoxm-TM wagons.

This would of been a fairly easy bus though for scum. TI was lurking, scummy looking, and was a very obvious eventual death. Framer isnt that strong of a role either since it needs to hit an exact player to be strong.

I would say NS-Poro-RF are decent spots to look though

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah we arent going to lynch TM today... still am pretty sure he is what he claims.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama : why do you think there is a vig? And why are you alive D2? Explain, plz.

Exploding pants sounds like a SK. Flavor also seems to only have one scum faction, FCC. Given that there were three kills, I would assume the last one was a vig, since two SKs dont make much sense, and a 20 player game I would expect a vig.

I dont know why I am alive though, thats the part that is confusing me a bit.

@Poro - Who is TMs scum buddies then?

[LlamaFluff]

Apparently some people arent quite used to my playstyle when I gain confidence.

Do you think that TM is a good lynch today?

[LlamaFluff]

Heh, I like AF.

Ok then. I understand how having TI town does not 100% clear TM, but I think given how close the wagons were, looking at the develpoment and interactions of the TI wagon are the best bet we can have today.

There are some things that can suggest a TM-TI scum pair, such as TIs long unwillingness to vote for TM, but I dont think they are both scum.

Do you think that TM is a better place to look for scum, or the development of the TI wagon, and how people reacted to it? Why?

[LlamaFluff]

If I didn't have absolute confidence that Nitro is scum, I'd be pushing really hard for RF right now.

@CC09, my case against him can be seen in any one of my posts from the first 3/4 of day one. Wolf slipped knowledge of Hybris being town, and voted him in the same post. It's virtually a confession to being scum.

Okay, now this is just getting ridiculous. I thought that this wagon was ridiculous on Day One, but you're still pursuing it during Day Two? Unless someone scummier comes up, I'll be voting you soon.

*sigh* I really dont think the strongest thing against NS/wolf is the "slip". Look at what else wolf was doing during D1 -

Early on, he started arguing about the PR of FL and PP reacting to it. This is not really scumhunting, just busying yourself presenting pro-town redderick. It does a good job of presenting a pro-town illusion, especially in large games, but it ultimately does not accomplish a whole lot.

When attention starts shifting to TI though, it seems like wolf is a scum partner. When I started pushing on TI, he started asking why I was ignoring xtoxm, who we now know was town.

Next he starts trying to push on Zilla (town again) without voting for her, while backing off of the Hybris wagon which is stalling out at this point. There is an acknowlegement of the TI case though at this point, although it is delayed due to TI not having finished his read which is exactly why TI needed to be lynched. It closed this window of vote avoidance and excuses.

Soon though wolf gets his vote to TM. TI is never mentioned again by him. TM is scummier due to him saying that he will act "more pro-town". Clear ignoring of the TI case is evident here.

All NS contributed was a failed vote on Hybris and saying that he would read up later. That read never happened and the vote ended up being left on TM at deadline. A quote of his sounded like he considered TM and/or TI scum though, but this was never elaborated on.

[LlamaFluff]

All the voters for Nitro can explain why they are voting for him?

See post 1078

oh and come to think about it why does ti being guilty equal tm being innocent,, he still isn't that helpful

Is he the scummiest player though? If not who is?

[LlamaFluff]

This is just making me more sure that Nitro is scum. Lets take a look at the way things are progressing right now.

First, Charter pushes a case on wolf about the slip, I dont fully agree with it since it does strech a bit, but fine. Today I join with a post that most people are ignoring, but there are reasons apart from the 'slip' that nitro should be getting lynched today. TM gets wagoned even though I still think he is vanilla. We have Zilla doing a little fishing about masons, and AF looking for an investigation confirmation.

Then things get odd, the last few posts have attacked Charter for being tunneled and not responding to a question regarding ROLE INFORMATION. If Charter is a role and can get Nitro-scum lynched without making himself known, awesome awesome awesome. There is nothing wrong with that post from charter, even if it is somewhat tunneled.

This is a chainsawish defense though from BA, Zilla and Hybris. All of you have 100% ignored what I have had to say on Nitro, and are attacking charter for taking what I see as a completely logical stance. We should be at very least getting a claim out of Nitro today, I really dont think he will be alive tomorrow.

@kmd - Why is Poro scummier then Nitro?
@BA, Zilla, Hybris - What do you think of my 1078
@AF - Why am I scum?
@non voters - Why not vote?

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama: Yes, I agree that the Wolf/NS wagon has yielded some information, but it still started out on a non-tell and there are still better wagons out there.

What type of information has it yeilded? Also do you think that TM is scum? Does it having roots in a non-tell make it less valid?

[LlamaFluff]

It can show potential scum buddying/distancing if NS does flip scum, and the like. I think that TM is scum.

Does TM scum makes NS more or less scum? TM town?

[LlamaFluff]

Scummy is not always scum. At this point we have one flipped scum whos wagon was distinctly different in progression then TMs was, even TI admitted to this occuring. People seem to continually ignore the fact that there were people who made moves to save or distract

proven scum

.

I really do not think that TM is scum at this point, NS should be getting lynched today if not just to save me the time of dealing with him later.

[LlamaFluff]

I am just saying that there is nothing scummy about thinking TM was scummier than TI.

Its a small scumtell if TM is town, since its pushing a town as opposed to scum wagon.

Seriously people, look at how easy the TM wagon was to pull off. Do you really think that is a scum wagon when compared to TI? I start a wagon on TI and people seemed interested on why TI over TM, xtoxm, CC, wolf and others. The TM wagon just was nearly universally agreed on. Both players were lurkers, so why would scum-TM be so easy to run up as opposed to scum-TI?

TM voters should make a case as opposed to "he has been scummy"

[LlamaFluff]

Does TM scum makes NS more or less scum? TM town?

Do you ever straight out say anything? Or do you just try to gain confidence by asking questions?

Asking questions is the best way to get people to slip up. In this case BA seems to just be rejecting the NS case, so I am attempting to find if its anything about the early push from charter, which there doesnt seem to be at all.

I don't see the case on Nitro either. What is the case?

Not as much on Nitro then on wolf. There were multiple times where wolf defended or deflected arguments about TI, now that we know that TI is scum, and also given the rejection of the Wolf wagon from TI, NS makes a lot of sense as scum. Post 1078 is the case I am voting him off of.

[LlamaFluff]

All the voters for Nitro can explain why they are voting for him?

See post 1078

You may answer for yourself, but it looks like you're answering for everyone.

Should I of said "my reasons are what I said in post 1078"? I made a case, I voted on the case and pointed tajo to it when asked. Nothing is wrong with that.

Your leading questions are extremely defensive of TM without actually committing to a position on him.

I think I have said this before but I will again. I think TM is vanilla town, just like he claimed. I would really like to lynch NS today, moreso then anyone else. If TM is scum, sure I will look stupid, but I dont think that he is.

Also the non-voters should vote.

[LlamaFluff]

For Zilla (and everyone elses) reading pleasure - Examples of wolf defending and deflecting from TI

Instance one

@Llama

I see your point about The Internet, the scum hunting and quality of posts does need to pick up, and the asking about the deadline. Question from me though is do you feel there is a difference in The Internets posts and Xtoxms?

agrees that TI is scummy, asks why not xtoxm (proven town) instead though, in an attempt to deflect.

Instance 2

@llama

If you answered my question to you earlier i didn't see it so sorry if i am repeating something you lready answered, but do you think there is a difference between TI's posts and lack thereof, and Xtoxm's posts?

Tries the exact same thing again. He never was openly suspicious of xtoxm either, but seemed to try and have me look at him instead of TI quite a bit.

Instance 3

@Llama

I am somewhat starting to see your point on The Internet. As it is i was waiting to see what the rest of his read would include, because right now it seems he only gve a partial one on myself and two others which seemed like an odd arrangment. My vote on Hybris is starting to get a little meh to me, he has come back since and posted some fairly decent content and though i am not quite sold on his towniness, i am starting to not be sure of his scuminess either. So for now i am going to :

unvote

and take another look back at a few posts.

He again says he sees the case on TI, but doesnt vote for him. More of trying to look suspicious of a scumbuddy, but a subtle defense in saying "lets wait to lynch untill he finishes his read".

Instance 4

He can't (and won't) argue the accusations against him, and say he will try to act more pro-town? Why say act? Either you are pro-town or you are putting on a show of being pro-town, aka scum.

vote TM

A vote on TM for a horribly big reach, when he haddent been really suspicious of him at all the entire game. Made at a time that defends TI by increasing the headcount on the TM wagon.

The connections here are huge, and why NS hasnt been lynched yet is just confusing me.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, I don't feel that case is strong enough; Xtoxm WAS scummier than hell day 1, as was Tony. I will say that it seems either one of Tony or Wolfram/Nitro are scum. Tony's still crazy scummy. Overall, I'd rather go with a better bet rather than an unlucky townie.

Starting to think that Zilla replaced anti-town here. I dont deny that xtoxm didnt look too town, which is why I think he was vigged instead of killed by anti-town. However you are ignoring the fact that Wolf never really rejected the TI wagon, and always tried to replace it with a different player (xtoxm) who was not really suspected much if at all by wolf.

Also saying one of TM/NS is a false dilemma, even though I think its true in this case. I just do not see TM flipping FCC in this game, hell I dont even think he is the pants SK.

TM is anti-town in this case in playstyle, but not in alignment. Wolf was not unlucky town, there are multiple instances of him trying to move a wagon from proven scum to proven town which he himself never suspected too much.

Really people, NS is the lynch for today, and I will not let him get to tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

hell I dont even think he is the pants SK.

Reporting live to ask why.

Flavor, not entirely sure who would be blowing people up with pants put the GUDE doesnt make any sense to be doing that. I know who you are, im about 90% sure who FL his, and there has been one other instance of flavor that only a few people will pick up on.

Seriously, we need a NS claim/lynch

[LlamaFluff]

Also saying one of TM/NS is a false dilemma, even though I think its true in this case. I just do not see TM flipping FCC in this game, hell I dont even think he is the pants SK.

Andsh TI/TM wash not?

They were the predominant wagons, there is a difference in saying "A and B are the top wagons" and what Zilla is saying in "One of A and B are scum".

TM is anti-town in this case in playstyle, but not in alignment.

How can you shay thish? Do you REALLY shnow TM'sh alignmentsh?

I am willing to put a pretty big bet on it. The way the whole day went down to me makes TM town. The timing of the wagons, the speed, the voters, it all makes more sense that TM is town. Even the only people who think TM is scum are the ones who were deadline voting him yesterday.

[LlamaFluff]

I am willing to put a pretty big bet on it. The way the whole day went down to me makes TM town. The timing of the wagons, the speed, the voters, it all makes more sense that TM is town. Even the only people who think TM is scum are the ones who were deadline voting him yesterday.

And we go live to Llama to ask how this is different from what is happening with Nitro today.

Lot more resistnace from players then there was with the TM wagon where most people just said "yeah I agree" or ignored it for the most part. There also is a much more aggressive and fixed in counterwagon that never much happened with the TM wagon.

During the first day votes moved around between Hybris and Zilla for a while, wolf and xotxm got some attention. THe entire time though, the TM wagon was gaining steam without anyone taking any significant steps to stop it. The TI wagon gathered speed to start, then starting being questioned.

Today we have wagon A and wagon B. While NS does have a big wagon already, there is a resistance in the TM wagon. The TM wagon of yesterday really just took off and never slowed down, the NS wagon is large, but in its nature is nothing like the NS wagon.

I almost would just rather have NS/replacement claim right now so we can get on with this, because nothing apart from someone claiming scum will be getting me off this wagon before that happens.

@FL - Having two big wagons in no way means they are both scum, or means that one of them has to be lynched by the end of the day. This is what Zilla is trying to turn it into.

@TM voters - What is the case past "he acts anti-town"?

Look, I cant explain it any better then I have been. During D1 there are multiple times that wolf deflected from TI onto proven town xtoxm without calling xtoxm town. There are posts of defensiveness over TI, and a jump to the TM wagon when TM had for the most part been ignored for the entire day. The fact that people think wolf was just "unlucky town" and dismiss it as that is bull really.

[LlamaFluff]

Lot more resistnace from players then there was with the TM wagon where most people just said "yeah I agree" or ignored it for the most part. There also is a much more aggressive and fixed in counterwagon that never much happened with the TM wagon.

New developments show us that TI was lynched. Over to Llama again: How was that not a counterwagon?

The TI wagon started up as the counterwagon to TM, after the TM wagon really went a long ways with no resistnace in any way. The NS wagon of today was blocked by the TM wagon really quickly, which is what I mean by a more fixed and aggressive counterwagon. It came about at the same time as the NS wagon, as opposed to the TI wagon which occured after the creation of the TM one yesterday.

@FL - Just look at how wagons went down yesterday. I really see no way that TM flips town. You do not run up scum very easily, only to have a similar wagon on a second scum start up for very similar reasons only to have it rejected as quickly as it was. If TM flips scum I will be completely shocked, right now my goal is to make sure NS doesnt see D3, and will use anything in my means to make that happen. NS should claim now too, he is at L-2 with what seems like a few people that have intention to vote him.

[LlamaFluff]

Let me make this clear... very clear

THE "SLIP" IS NOT A PART OF MY CASE ON NS/WOLF AT ALL.

@Hybris - It was just a typo, im pretty sure you know what I ment given my posts and vote

[LlamaFluff]

I need to do some rereading and thinking since that fits flavor really well, especially since KoC flipped "Daddy" and that was his role name. Searching mason variant it seems.

@ZONACE - Was alignment of KoC or the child confirmed?

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote tubby

(rep PP)

More after my finals today but I think that should be out there

[LlamaFluff]

A few things. First, I really don't like Llama trying to softly imply that I am scum just for being on his case. It's a camoflagued OMGUS. I also don't like how he went from "I'd be really shocked if Nitro(Zone) flipped town." to voting for someone else without even a case (I would at least expect him to hold off on the vote until he had time to put the case up.) What happened to "I'm going to get Nitro lynched"? And the only thing that would dissuade you was someone claiming scum?

I'm also extremely confused why, if you take Zone to be town, you're not reacting to Charter.

Actually you have been insinuating that I am scum in a few of your posts, which is making me a bit uncomfortable since you seemed townish in your first life which is why I think the pants thing is the SK and the xtoxm thing is a vig. I dont have the same town feel on you this time, so while I am not calling for your lynch, we can do much worse.

Anyways, flavor is very important in this game, and quite a bit can be determined from it. Seriously. Usually I hate clinging to things like the validity of flavor and nameclaims, but it does have merit in this setup from what I worked out. Flavor points to the Swansons both being town due to the role they share, what KoC flipped backs this up with his alignment. I can admit to being wrong when I am proven wrong, and I think I just was proven wrong.

I still dont think Charter is scum though so I am not going to go and vote for him. KoC seems to of been the scum kill last night since xtoxm was scummy, and Zillas death sounds SK-ish. I think KoC was only really a threat to PP, who defended from TI a bit, as did Tubby who replaced him. More on this later though, tomorrow is my last final at least.

[LlamaFluff]

We now take you down the road of why Tubby got unlucky enough to replace scum and gave us additional reasons to lynch him.

There is a lot of active lurking to cut through early on, and no real serious votes outside of another “slip” based vote on xtoxm. The first post that shows in relation to TI that PP was scum is here

I support a Xtoxm, wolf, CoheedCambria, TheInternet, Zilla lynch...in that order.

Zilla, why would u no longer suspect TI cuz of 1 post he makes (his 'read' on people?)...

CoheedCambria, u seemed to completely abandon ur inquiry of KMD once my wagon gained steam and note that almost half the posts you made in this game are Voting posts...also please elaborate on what you mean by 'my actions'?

The second line is PP getting on Zilla for abandoning the TI case too quickly. At this point PP really didn’t even agree with the TI lynch, so its surprising that TI even made it into the suspects. This easily could be a lynch setup, where scum points out when town starts calling scum town in hopes to use it later as “omg scumbuddies”.

I feel a connection between TI and Zilla. The only person TI has ever really mentioned in his post is Zilla. First how he finds Zilla suspicious and then how Zilla is a clear townie, yada yada yada..hmmmmm..

More of the same thing, connection Zilla (town) to TI (scum). At this point PP has his vote on xtoxm, and it had been on FL for the post-restriction thing. This is also an interesting thing that I remembered, Gimbo is much more of an asshole when he is scum. I have been in a game with him where he was a mason and he was annoying, but bearable. I replaced him as scum in a different game where he was just a dick for the whole time he was in it. If anyone else has comparable meta it might be interesting to take a look at.

Going back to the point at hand though, PP really never showed much interest in TI being scum, yet was pretty interested on why Zilla brushed him off as she did. There was really no reason for TI to be in PPs list that I already brought up except for the perceived connection to Zilla, who should have been the top suspect if TI being scum depended on Zilla being scum. Zilla would of flipped town though unlinke TI, so TI needed to be lynched if Zilla was going to get the axe from this connection.

PP eventually goes back to the TM lynch, on another “slip” (god I hate slips at this point). There is another push on xtoxm this time when he calls TI town, who PP still has never expressed any suspicion of outside of being scum because other people say that he is town. It seems like calling TI town is being used as a scumtell before TI got lynched, against two proven pro-town players.

TI is lurking and scummy, but TM is just...scummy, and I'm just lurking and CC09 is lurking/under the radar/unhelpful.

But I am inclined to believe at least one of you really pro-town duds out there is scum (i.e. Porochaz, Zilla, etc..among others)

Suddenly everything just changed. Zilla got town, and now TM is a higher priority then TI to lynch. This entire game PP said that TI was scummy because people called him town. I think this was the other way around and PP saw people calling TI who was going to be an eventual lynch town, and attempted to set things up. The two people most concentrated on (Zilla and xtoxm) both are already dead town.

Why Tubby only continues this read of PP scum later

[LlamaFluff]

charter awaong sutpid, zonewagon doent make sens when you look at the all improtant flavor, llama killed twleve pack and then some. tubby wagon the good one.

[LlamaFluff]

More on why PP-Tubby is the right lynch as opposed to the fail wagons we have going on right now. I am starting to think that people aren’t even going to listen to me though. If you will not believe me though, I will make you believe me.

On his initial replacement, Tubby says that he doesn’t see any case on TM or on TI after a reread. Eventually he comes to the conclusion that Zilla is his top suspect (why was there so much passive Zilla hate D1 really?).

When he finished catching up, he came to the conclusion that he didn’t see any case on TI, he even goes as far as to call TI helpful. There is an attempt to pawn off part of the TI case in saying that everyone has lurked at parts of this game (which really isn’t true), which ignores the point TI lurked with the intent of lurking, and would only come out when called on.

Zilla suddenly becomes someone who he has no read on, as deadline is impending and the only real choices are TM and TI. The read there is passed off as confused and sparatic, so it merits what appears to be a FoS.

The vote goes to TM for – not being helpful. Yes that was the entire reason. Given that he needed to vote for TM if he wanted to have a legitimate shot at saving TI a streach was needed, especially after claiming not to see a case on TM a mere 18 hours ago. Once he reread in isolation though, TM was scummy to him, or should I say not helpful.

Tubby has yet to make a case on anyone, or go any farther then “TM is not helpful” in reasoning for a vote. Today he has voted for NS on what everyone else has said, mixed with pressure. This combined with what PP did makes me comfortable in this lynch.

Added thing too is that KoC actually would of made sense coming from PP-scum since he was one of the only people who really wanted PP dead and was pushing that case even when there were others who were trying to stop it from happening and pushing other things.

[LlamaFluff]

@Zilla: What reason is there for voting me? Just for defending Charter?

Yep, double logic fail on Zillas part. First, I really dont think Charter is scum, especially when you look at how fast he voted TI when the wagon started to move. I dont see charter-scum without TM-scum, even then the TM wagon would of been the one to back, since a failed TI wagon and a TM lynch would make him gather attention there.

Also the vote on BA is a failure. If you think BA is scum for defending charter scum, you vote charter scum since his alignment effects what you think BA is. If charter is an independent alignment from BA... well nothing you said makes me think that you think that.

I still dont get why you arent into the PP lynch anymore, especially since like you said, Zilla-1 wanted one. Now you seem to be rejecting it on really weak premises, when there is actually more evidence then there was D1 for that wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

back, dissapointed that I am still the only tubby voter. More disappointed that charter is the vote leader. More later when I didnt just finish a 14 hour drive.

[LlamaFluff]

After a reread, of whats going on, I dont like the push of the charter case since I really dont think there is one. Given how fast he voted for TI, when he did, I just dont see scum buddy. Same with EK.

Tubby should still be dying with that 100% beyond awful vote on TM he just put down, I really dont see why he has one vote as is.

I will probably be moving my vote to a different suspect that is a lynch competitor after ZONEACE answers my question.

@ZONEACE - Were you searching for KoC, was he searching for you, or was it mutual?

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: Why is tubby's vote on TM scummy? What do you think of BlakAdder, KMD, and Porochaz?

Look at his posts, he makes no real push and finding anyone suspicious, in fact the most I have seen him to is attempt to keep TM in the running for scum, while not untill just recently voting him. Mixed with how PP played, and what Tubby did late D1, I would love to see him lynched.

BA is an acceptable lynch, and I am considering moving my vote there, however he just doesnt fit scum attentive on saving TI despite all the vote hopping he did, would expect a SK flip before a mafia flip.

KMD I dunno, I would bet either him or FL is scum since PR is naturally a town leaning thing. Two PRs in a 20 player game and both being town on top of solid town claims which I am sure will come about is almost too good. That is outguessing the mod though. I dont like the T/D thing he did which I still say is rambling BS more then anything else. I think his EK case is off too given my D1 read of her, he made the right D1 vote though when a TM one would of posponed a TI flip for a night. Hard to get a read here for me.

Poro I just have leaning scum, although I dont think he is a lynch for today. The constant reminders that he was

suspicious

of TI yet didnt vote for him is unsettling, since we all know what he did. The "remember when" stuff being brought up this much just feels like its trying to be oversold.

For ZONEACE though, I am really conflicted on if he is the lynch or not. There was something I realized during my V/LA when I was trying to track someone down (damn mafia getting into irl thought process). It was "do they know I am looking for them?". Think about it, if we had two players that were both town aligned looking for eachother, what would be the most efficient way to find eachother? One of them would need to character claim. If either KoC or wolf claimed character D1, the other would of found them immediately. This also would likely of draw attention of roles like docter/tracker/watcher etc, anything that would effect them directly. The only one who would not want that, is mafia who is afraid of having a new town member spawn which is what makes me think that ZONEACE might be scum since there was never an attempt to hook up, but KoC didnt do anything either so...

I just keep running that around in my head, and I think a claim from town searching masons who spawn a new town member would of been a good move. Maybe, just maybe, the roles are something like Town-Joe, Mafia-Bonny. Whoever find the other first, the baby is that alignment, if its at the same time, its neutral. That again is outguessing the mod though. I am just flailing a bit here since I know what I want and cant seem to make anyone stop what I dont want.

The last votecount is pretty depressing though, since I would like to see one flip before lynching BA, and still am really conflicted about ZONEACE. Both I could put up a decent list of pro and con reasons to vote them at this point. I need to sleep on this one.

[LlamaFluff]

tubby wagon anyone? would get us a second scum lynch while the charter/TM wagon is just going to explode in a massive barrage of fail.

been thinking and I dont plan on moving this vote outside of some very specific deadline situations

[LlamaFluff]

So why unvote TM? Does him having less votes make him town?

[LlamaFluff]

People not voting need to vote for real, not that sissy little "break the tie then run away" thing. Seriously, no one has a lot of votes, everyone needs to vote.

[LlamaFluff]

Ignored is such an ugly word. I prefer "rejected".

Are you going to keep your vote on him going into deadline when the top vote getters are at three votes each?

[LlamaFluff]

First I realize that I am being kind of pushy here but IT IS NEEDED.

Ok people, lets get something perfectly straight here, we are almost at a deadline and the votes are quite pathetic, if scum gets lynch well damn, amazing someone must of bussed or scum are in a really bad spot. When we have two people at three votes and then another four at two, ONE person changing a vote can tie someone for the lead, cause another claim, and more shit that we dont want. This has to stop really, going on V/LA I was worried you guys would lynch, or there would be something like charter/ZONE at five votes each. Never thought that I would need to be worried about this shit happening, but alas we are in this spot and we need to get out of it. Now.

The people who are voting with no support (AF, kmd) support a wagon that is going to lead to a lynch instead of throwing out a vote. Also I am really pissed off at kmd if he is town (which I am beginning to doubt) for something that happened, but I will get to that post game. The people who arent voting (tajo, TM) need to vote. Come on now. We are two days from a deadline of a day that is three weeks in length, if you cant get enough of a read on anyone to get a logical vote out by this point, get replaced. Very serious there.

People with high votes (tubby/charter mainly, hybris, ZONE, BA to an extent) need to move their vote to who they would vote if they came on and saw deadline got pushed up to a minute in the future.

These things happen, and we might be able to get a lynch that isnt going to be made in a shitstorm of "OMG deadline claim claim claim" then we lynch stupidly. Right now I am just increasingly upset with the way this game is starting to look, with so many people at so few votes so close to deadline, this day is going to be a wash, and there will be little to look at going into the next day.

People, vote logically, seriously.

Request deadline extention due to holidays

[LlamaFluff]

We have so many people who could be a lynch, as deadline happens there will be quite a few claims, and not a lot of time to sort them out, get counters and the chance of making a subpar lynch is greater. I just see a looming deadline and a vote count that is just horrible going into it.

Lets say tubby claims a PR, votes move to charter who claims a PR, then what? A bunch of votes start landing on the people with two votes, some of them claim. Maybe we just lynch whoever claims vanilla first, maybe we lynch ZONE due to confliction over his role really being town.

Having two or three clear frontrunners is ideal for a deadline. It allows more information from a flip, makes scum manipulation of the lynch harder, and all in all results in a much better lynch. But hey maybe I finally am snapping.

[LlamaFluff]

Given that tubby is at five (six if you want to count charters preimtive vote) and deadline is in about 70 hours, a claim would be nice here.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

Remember when I was going on about votes being different? There was someone who I think doesnt have a vote on the TM wagon yesterday. They need to claim that they dont have a vote I think here, because if that is true, then TM wouldnt of been lynched.

[LlamaFluff]

HAH I was right about that you were actually voteless

[LlamaFluff]

beats me flat out claiming voteless last game. I need to think about what to do now though

[LlamaFluff]

vote ZONEACE

Might be the best thing to do here. I still think that wolf was scummy in interactions with TI during D1, and the role is a little wierd to me. While it has a tendancy to lean town, two town searching masons need SOME kind of a hitch, especially if they produce a town child. I think that ZONEACE or the eventual child is/would be scum.

Power looks strong already. We have a cop, vig, double voter, searching mason (town), searching mason (unknown), roleblocker all claimed town. Against so far a framer. Lots of roles, especially ones as swingy as searching masons that spawn another player, is hard to balance, but the mason thing seems to strong to me. When coupled with wolfs D1 play and the ammount of questions this lynch will get us, its the best

tl;dr good reasons for ZONEACE lynch

1. Power of his role seems to extream
2. Wolf was very scummy
3. Lots of information gained from the lynch

[LlamaFluff]

1. Power of his role seems to extream
2. Wolf was very scummy
3. Lots of information gained from the lynch

until someone actually brings up something SPECIFIC (ie linking/quoting) that wolf did that was so scummmy, i have no reason to believe you aren't just voting based on Charter's shat case. Cause so far, that's the ONLY thing i've seen brough up against me/wolf.

Well this was what I brought up at the beginning of the day, if you want me to dig up quotes I will later. If you look at what I even have just said, I didnt even mention the slip thing

*sigh* I really dont think the strongest thing against NS/wolf is the "slip". Look at what else wolf was doing during D1 -

Early on, he started arguing about the PR of FL and PP reacting to it. This is not really scumhunting, just busying yourself presenting pro-town redderick. It does a good job of presenting a pro-town illusion, especially in large games, but it ultimately does not accomplish a whole lot.

When attention starts shifting to TI though, it seems like wolf is a scum partner. When I started pushing on TI, he started asking why I was ignoring xtoxm, who we now know was town.

Next he starts trying to push on Zilla (town again) without voting for her, while backing off of the Hybris wagon which is stalling out at this point. There is an acknowlegement of the TI case though at this point, although it is delayed due to TI not having finished his read which is exactly why TI needed to be lynched. It closed this window of vote avoidance and excuses.

Soon though wolf gets his vote to TM. TI is never mentioned again by him. TM is scummier due to him saying that he will act "more pro-town". Clear ignoring of the TI case is evident here.

All NS contributed was a failed vote on Hybris and saying that he would read up later. That read never happened and the vote ended up being left on TM at deadline. A quote of his sounded like he considered TM and/or TI scum though, but this was never elaborated on.

[LlamaFluff]

no didn't bring it up but the only things you brought up were WIFOM and and something I can't actually dispute in an real fashion(wolf was scummy).

Well we will get the most information out of your lynch then any other, even the TM lynch is a fairly distant second. I really dont have too much on you apart from the vote on charter, which is more of a "I really think charter is town" disagreement then anything else. I more agree with the RF case then the charter one as she is and has been in my top five for quite a while. Everything else you have done though is basically claim, so if I had to make a case specifically on you, it would be pretty difficult due to lack of stuff.

I am not voting you on WIFOM though (with the exception of my views on searching spawn masons). Your predicessors were really scummy, and there is no other alignment I would prefer to get apart from yours.

Also Zilla is funny. Being aggressive is not the same as being scummy, I assert my opinions pretty forcefully, people can choose to listen to me or not. I am not being manipulative since I am not scum, I am however being persuasive.

[LlamaFluff]

Rolefishing would be saying things like "Wow only three deaths? I expected four. I wonder if there is a doctor?". I can manipulate people if I need to, as town and scum, but really havent done a whole lot of it in this game.

Also I went after two people, ZONEACE and Tubby, not three. I think everyone who claimed is telling the truth about their role, but not their alignment at this point, namely ZONE. Since when is searching mason (which I am 100% sure he flips 'Mommy') or double voter (which I am 99.9% sure he is since it can be disproven easily and is a flavor fit), a weak claim? Weak claimes are things like "doctor" which arent really proveable ever and hence safe claims for scum.

I am agressive and I do push my own agenda in games. I have done this in almost every game I play here regardless of alignment.

Also RF is partially just a meta thing. I have played in two other games with her, each time she was town and this time she just feels a bit different in playstyle. Not enough to make her a top suspect on its own but with a lot of filler posts and being on TM instead of TI D1, I do have her as a top five.

[LlamaFluff]

Found the quotes that show wolf/ZONE scum again. Missed this earlier.

For Zilla (and everyone elses) reading pleasure - Examples of wolf defending and deflecting from TI

Instance one

@Llama

I see your point about The Internet, the scum hunting and quality of posts does need to pick up, and the asking about the deadline. Question from me though is do you feel there is a difference in The Internets posts and Xtoxms?

agrees that TI is scummy, asks why not xtoxm (proven town) instead though, in an attempt to deflect.

Instance 2

@llama

If you answered my question to you earlier i didn't see it so sorry if i am repeating something you lready answered, but do you think there is a difference between TI's posts and lack thereof, and Xtoxm's posts?

Tries the exact same thing again. He never was openly suspicious of xtoxm either, but seemed to try and have me look at him instead of TI quite a bit.

Instance 3

@Llama

I am somewhat starting to see your point on The Internet. As it is i was waiting to see what the rest of his read would include, because right now it seems he only gve a partial one on myself and two others which seemed like an odd arrangment. My vote on Hybris is starting to get a little meh to me, he has come back since and posted some fairly decent content and though i am not quite sold on his towniness, i am starting to not be sure of his scuminess either. So for now i am going to :

unvote

and take another look back at a few posts.

He again says he sees the case on TI, but doesnt vote for him. More of trying to look suspicious of a scumbuddy, but a subtle defense in saying "lets wait to lynch untill he finishes his read".

Instance 4

He can't (and won't) argue the accusations against him, and say he will try to act more pro-town? Why say act? Either you are pro-town or you are putting on a show of being pro-town, aka scum.

vote TM

A vote on TM for a horribly big reach, when he haddent been really suspicious of him at all the entire game. Made at a time that defends TI by increasing the headcount on the TM wagon.

The connections here are huge, and why NS hasnt been lynched yet is just confusing me.

Zillas last post is a little ironic in a few parts. One of them calling the DV "weak" since they get stronger and stronger as the game progresses. Masons we dont know for sure what they did if they hooked up, even though I would bet a decent ammount on ZONE being scum, child being scum or child being SK/neutral.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama - Cop? Who claimed cop? I must have missed that.

@Zilla - ^^This is rolefishing^^. We had a framer, outside of bastard modding that means there is a cop. Also given that farsides last two had a cop I expect the trend to continue.

[LlamaFluff]

Zilla, I see your point on Llama. I've been his scumbuddy before in a 12 player game (3 scum). He bussed both partners on Days 1 AND 2. Something about his play bothers me too. The way he is trying to control the entire game. I mean, yeah, his playstyle is a very well thought out kind of game, but to actually take everything and control it the way he has, it reminds me of his scum game.

I tend to do better when I have controll of a game (and also when I am VT). You have played with me as town before too though, I always try to be vocal regardless of alignment. People listening to you is always a plus since you have a bigger effect on the game.

Also the bus of you was because a different wagon fell through after a claim and there were no other moves at that point, but thats not a part of this game. You know that the TI wagon was not like yours in that game.

@Zilla - Its called pushing cases. If I push a case and enough people agree with me or otherwise find reasons to vote with me, the player was scummy. Rolefishing is more of trying to get someone to hint at being a role through talking about them, not explicitly claim. Look at the first Family Guy mafia (has me, kmd, RF, EK as town). The first day almost every player claimed, although im not really sure what point im trying to prove anymore. Ah yes, just because someone claims it doesnt mean the person who pushed the case is scum. Also I have caught more scum then you, so unless you are suggesting I abandoned a VT wagon to bus off the framer D1 for no good reason at all, I dont get the case on me.

@RF - Yes AF was rolefishing a bit too. Your push of trying to figure out where a cop claimed was a fish too though. Then again I can find a few other instances of other people fishing, been a lot of it in this game.

[LlamaFluff]

I tend to do better when I have controll of a game (and also when I am VT). You have played with me as town before too though, I always try to be vocal regardless of alignment. People listening to you is always a plus since you have a bigger effect on the game.

Also the bus of you was because a different wagon fell through after a claim and there were no other moves at that point, but thats not a part of this game. You know that the TI wagon was not like yours in that game.

Yes, you are vocal as both scum and town. Just the way you have control reminds me of your scum game though. You have a protown style as both town and scum. The difference? You seem more confident as scum. Not sure I should tell you this because you will probably work to change it now, but that's what I see.

Hah, I actually know this and am still working on that one. There are a few other small ones, but thats the only tell I have that I know, even if its not always constant. I used to play a lot on facebook (ugh I know), and the other people who played a lot like me could read exactly what I was D1 as I could with them, there are three standard metas for each player. More on that later.

Also the too was ment to be "like you were" since I still say RF was fishing with that comment.

[LlamaFluff]

Here's a crucial question; why would you abandon the case on ZA, switch to tubby, then fall back onto ZA once Tubby claimed?

Claims really. I was blown back by how solid ZONEACEs claim really was, I never expected it to be something that made so much sense in this game. It even answered what I was trying to figure out in the terms of the "why did KoC just flip 'Daddy' while xtoxm flipped with a specific role". I took it as a strong claim, while still thinking what wolf/NS had done was scummy, I moved onto someone else who was scummy, plus was part of a scumgroup I had mapped out.

During the Tubby wagon I did start secondguessing not the validity, but the alignment of ZONEACE. They were not confirmed town to eachother, nor was the child confirmed town, this seemed pretty strong if they actually managed to hook up later in the game. Around that time (when I came back from V/LA) is when I decided ZONEACE might be a good target afterall, especially if tubby was scum.

Tubby then claimed double voter Adam West, even though I thought something like govenor would be his claim, but again I am speculating when I shouldnt. Anyway, this is a pretty strong role, especially in the hands of scum since its an auto-win in F3, and as I said becomes more and more powerful if the game goes on. Farside has this thing where she makes scum roles strong though (tracker/watcher from FG1, Day vig from FR1). Again I am outguessing and speculating and starting to just confuse myself further which is the last thing I want as the day ends.

Anyway, I think that the claim from Tubby is pretty town, although I do want to prove it at one point either today, or at the latest tomorrow. Now at this point my list of four people I would be happy vigging is looking a little wierd. One had claimed double voter, one had claim second part to a searching mason, one is gut that I wont go into, and one has no real chance of being lynched.

ZONEACE is the logical choice for me then. I get quite a bit of information to help bolster my reads on charter, kmd and EK amung others who were on that wagon. Also I still hold true to a decent chance at having him flip scum, there were multiple instances where wolf did try to detract from the TI lynch yesterday, and NS had some ugly D2 play for what he was here for. Finally the balance issue I have over this role. I am having a really hard time seeing (and contemplating balance) over a town-town mason pair that can hook up to spawn another town player. Even scum-town that forms random or something like that. I dont get it, and am confused as hell over what to do. My logic is pointing back to square one though which is the ZONEACE lynch, when my gut likes my logic im not about to ignore it.

[LlamaFluff]

And what I have necroed in 1428 and 1440. Part gut and part MIFOM yes though, I wont deny that.

[LlamaFluff]

How do you read the Tubby wagon, if you consider him to be town now?

Very confused actually. At the point where tubby claimed, I was increasingly sure of him being town due to most of the players on his wagon giving me town reads. There were only a few people I had as scum on it, and they mostly joined near the end instead of at the beginning of the wagon.

Also AF just earned quite a few townie points.

And also we are at the "unhappy" vote count again. Right now tubby is at four and hybris/ZONEACE/charter at three each. That is just sad. People lone voting should vote with enough of a group to have an effect, throwing away a vote at this point is hella scummy.

[LlamaFluff]

First, you pay no mind to the evidence the tubby wagon might give? It seems like you're disregarding it entirely, and saying that it doesn't say anything about anyone. Also, could you make sure there aren't any mistakes in that? I'm confused by "I was increasingly sure of him being town due to most of the players on his wagon giving me town reads."

What? Because you thought the people voting for him were town, you were thinking tubby was likely town?

I was increasingly sure of him being

town

scum due to most of the players on his wagon giving me town reads

fixed for you.

And also we are at the "unhappy" vote count again. Right now tubby is at four and hybris/ZONEACE/charter at three each. That is just sad. People lone voting should vote with enough of a group to have an effect, throwing away a vote at this point is hella scummy.

Things can certainly turn around quickly. Quite a nice defense manuver to focus everyone on those four candidates, as if we don't have time to lynch anyone else (I'm still looking at you). Tubby wasn't onscreen until he made his vote on Hybris, and we brought him all the way to L-1 (or -2 depending on FL's claim)

Oh, and FL was the third role you managed to coax out today, I knew there were three.

For FL if you haddent figured out she couldnt vote by page four you are nearly as dense as you for persuing me. Reading between the lines accomplishes a lot in these games for figuring out if you should or should not push ahead in certain areas. Also a vote restriction is NOT the same as a role. Its not like if I said "holy crap kmd has a post restriction" after his first post its scummy, it would eventually come out like FL and the VR.

I want people to start voting logically though which I am pretty serious about. The more spread out votes are the more they can be manipulated since less work is required to pull it off. If people are forced to make choices that will effect the game, more evidence will be around later in the game.

Also preview edit show Hybris starting to crash and burn.

[LlamaFluff]

Hybris - Yes or no question, answer any other way or fence sit and I will vote you.

Do you think that tubby is scum and give reasoning.

[LlamaFluff]

The ice cubes have hardened already CC... some input during D2 would be nice.

@kmd - I didnt say you were on wolf/ZONE wagon, that flip would help me figure out a bit about you though.

@Hybris - I agree with tubby about you still seeming unsure of yourself while trying to seem sure. How likely is tubby to be scum?

[LlamaFluff]

The only thing giving me real doubts right now is the double-voting, which does not mean he's town, and if he's scum with that, he's all the more dangerous for it.

Which is why we role claim when a scummy person is nearing a lynch *cough* Zilla *cough*. You are sounding like you are considering him such a threat if he is scum that we should lynch him today just incase he is.

He voted me with little to no reason, other than the fact that I seemed to be an easy target at the time. That alone is very scummy, and considering its part of a trend that he's been doing, I've got to say that a lot of the things he's been doing are anti-town at least.

You werent an "easy target" at the time. Easy targets were ZONE and charter, especially as given the DV it put him out deadline lynch. Also he has pretty decent reasons to be voting you, the last few pages have been a crash and burn phase for you. You have played both sides of the "lynch tubby" wagon, and even nonw seem to be preparing to dump blame of a mislynch on me (and have been for a while).

It was one of those instances where the vote was shitty, but the wagon wasnt as bad as it could be. This of course is aside from the fact that the only way any of my suspicions make any good sense once they pass two players is if people are bussing in really wierd spots. You have been following people quite a bit though this game, something that you are calling tubby scum for doing right now.

Its very plausible that you're scum buddies with him and trying to save his ass, having been leading that wagon on him and never expecting it to gain ground so that late game you could say that you've been advocating lynching him so far back and use it to make yourself look very pro-town late game, or that your scum and picked him honestly knowing he was town, and hoping that exactly this would happen, but jumping off once it ballooned so that you could pin somebody *in this case me* as the person who lynched the townie and who will seem scummy and a good third day lynch to attract attention away from those who are really scummy. Actually, that second one would make sense with Forbiddan having no vote and Tubby having two, with them both being town town has the same amount of votes as usual, solving the balance issue. This is a good deal to think about...

Hey check it out. If tubby is scum, I bussed. If tubby is town, I got him lynched as scum. Looks like a lose lose situation for me here. Either way though, you already have someone to vote tomorrow, as well as scapegoat if tubby is town. Although you just called tubby town for his DV thing because you think FL is town. Which is in direct contridiction to your vote, and to the fact that part of the reason you want tubby lynched is that he is scum DV.

Hell I am probably going to catch quite a bit of flack for this move... but

unvote
Vote Hybris

Few reasons, more later though

1) His post 11, votes wolf while saying that he think the argument is weak, but the best so far. This is an example of his parroting, unwillingness to scumhunt, and poor voting.
2) His post 4. Deflection of being lurky onto other players.
3) His post 30. Creation of a false dillema (states only cases are on him, Zilla, and charter/zone). Says charter/wolf best case, isnt voting on it.
4) His post 38. Pushing attention onto TM in an attempt to get kloud to call him scummy, while not showing any signs of thinking TM is scum.
5) Hist post 61. Calls me and Zilla scum during one of our debates, then second guesses it in the same post. Still is not scumhunting and is voting charter on reasons I dont get, while not pushing the charter lynch.
6) His post 62. His entire response to TI is correcting that kloud got replaced. Ignores everything he actually asked TI to do.
7) His post 67. He acknowlages that not voting TI/TM is throwing away a vote. Remember this.
8) His post 72 (last post of D1). Does not vote, just calls the wagons too close, says TI is the lynch unless he claims. I get a 'holding out' feeling, trying to get a reason to vote TM.

--End D1 and posting for the night--

There are a few key points that show up regarding Hybris

- Fencesitting on key wagons and issues
- Distinct lack of scumhunting
- A general posting style of active lurking

Happy new years! This ties tubby and hybris wagons.

More in '09

[LlamaFluff]

Hybris should highly consider claiming next post. I need to get caught up a bit too, in this game as well as other things. Will try to get a decent sized post in sometime tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont like the movement to charter wagon
I dont like RF in post 1553
I dont like Hybris' roleclaim
I really want to hear from kmd
I really want to hear from FL
I think Hybris is the lynch for today
I think if people are insistent on wagon hopping, ZA and AF are the options

I think I need to find the time to make a indepth post here soon

[LlamaFluff]

Long overdue post time.

Ive had a hard time trying to piece things together today, mostly because everytime I think I have figured out connections or a few alignments, someone immediately decides to just destroy it with their next post. I need to start moving forward but there are too many things I get hung up on it just causes me to second guess myself. Maybe thats why im dreading making a choice over the next few days.

Hybris' claim is why I wanted to hear more from kmd. We have a heavily post restricted Tom and a Vanilla Diane, this doesnt make a lot of sense to me, and I have this wierd feeling that there is something more to this connection then meets the eye. I really hate to start speculating (actually I love it since it gives me role ideas for future games) but one of my first reactions was lyncher/lynchee, which is why I wanted to see kmd react to the claim of Diane. I dont think this is what we are dealing with but kmd voting for Hybris just sits poorly with me.

Now my main concern with RF is the post where she reacted to TM putting a L-1 vote on Hybris. It was a very agressive post which is fine, except for the situation at hand. This was less then 24 hours to deadline, after Hybris had claimed vanilla. While there admittedly was no reasoning, the reaction was very unexpected. RF had been the initial pusher of the Hybris case, and now TM had brought the wagon which at the point looked like the obvious deadline lynch, to L-1. The way the reaction happened just seemed to try and push TM off the wagon, or at least attach him more to appearing on the wagon. It didnt seem like a town one to me since as town I have no problem with trying to bring a scummy player from deadline lynch to real lynch.
@RF - Do you think Hybris is scum? TM? Who would be the better lynch?

I go back and forth on AF a lot, a whole lot. On my notes he has been pretty far on each side, and right now he is back towards scum after the wierd vote on charter. That is something that I think should be looked at pretty soon, since he seems to just be around and laying down some convienant votes, especially as deadline is approaching.

A few responses now (I had no clue I was this far behind)

@Hybris(reg 1505)

First of all, I said you were active lurking, not SSK-lurking. There is a distinct difference there in which you do show up as being a part of the game, but not really a memorable part of the game. I had to go back and look at what you were doing D1, which I actually could give a quick rundown of how everyone else played, and what the did on the end of day wagons.

Also you are deflecting, again, onto tubby. When I accused you of scumhunting (the most you still have really done is making a small case on tubby when he was flavor of the day) you just said well tubby is worse, much worse, and so are some others. Thats scummy.

I still think the fact that you didnt join either wagon (late D1) is a scumtell too, moreso then the others who didnt make a choice given that you explicitly said that you thought that not voting for either of these wagons was throwing away your vote shortly before deadline. When deadline occured, you still did not vote for either of the two wagons, effectively "throwing away your vote".

I still dont get the charter wagon... I just am pretty sure he is town at this point, enough to try and take some unconventional methods of trying to stop this wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff: -3 (This was pro-town on Day 1, but Day 2 has been a mess, he's pushed on two people who have claimed, then backed off. At best, he's got a broken scumdar and too much impetus. At worst, he's keniving scum playing outside of his group. Actually, that seems to fit with self-aligned. Make that a -5, since we know self-aligned is in this game)

Oh ive gone quite insane in this game, I snapped about twenty pages bah *tee hee* Then again, maybe I am sane and you all are the mad ones. Stark raving sane is what I am.

How does someone "fit" self-aligned though?

[LlamaFluff]

I really hate this game, almost all my reads are wrong. I just need to tear down everything and start over.

[LlamaFluff]

First off its nice to hear a case more then "I think Llama is the SK" and "meta", oh wait, thats all the case against me. Also Zilla is wrong about RFs death, look at the flavor and compare it to the N1 deaths, two players killed RF. It looks like the vig is "beat up" killing, the mafia is shot, and the SK are wierd random things.

RF turning up town surprised me a bit, the way the game ended yesterday really didnt seem to suggest it to me. Right now, I would lean to lynching one of ZA, Poro or Tajo. With RF, I spent a lot of time looking at these four overnight, trying to figure out who is connected to who, and things to that extent.

Also people are dense.

Vote ZONEACE

right now though

Yes part of this is still WIFOM over the role, as the searching mason spawning a town child makes no sense. There has to be some downside or something here, and I just keep going back to farside making one of the parents scum (mafia mommy anyone?).

The case against wolf is fairly well established at this point as well. The intereactions with TI point to scum buddies. Almost everyone who Wolf tried to push attention from TI onto, and voted instead of TI has been proven town. The claim saved ZA yesterday, but I dont think it should today.

I really dont think ZA has been the epitome of town in his replacement time. Most of what he has done is attack Charter for a weak case with a little bit of side pressure at RF for being lurky. He managed to dodge a lot of the discussion about the Tubby wagon and the Hybris wagon. Most of his defense against the case I made on wolf was "he was indecisive", which is pretty bullshit if you ask me. It is not indecisive to bring up similarities between xtoxm (town) and TI (scum) when I pressure TI. It is not idecisive to vote TM (pretty damn sure town) over TI (scum).

There is also the point in time where ZA actually says "If I am scum then Charter was bussing". Seriously, what the hell is this? Why would town ever say, "If I am scum then player X is scum", I do not in the least bit understand this. Also given that logic, Charter scum means you can still be scum and we should lynch you. Using Charters case, which I DO admit was weak, as a point against my case is undermining what I had to say.

Late in the day, all ZA did to get involved in the Hybris wagon was an early FoS on him (and AF), followed by a vote on Hybris to get the ammount of votes on him at deadline up a bit.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm also unaware as to how my lynch gives you much insight into Charter's alignment. The way I see it, if I was an outside observer of the two of us,

no matter how I flip charter looks scum. If I flip scum, he's been bussing since EARLY day one, trying like fuck to distance,

and if I flip town he's scum cause he's been pushing me with a crap case since EARLY day one that he just keeps repeating and claiming its OMGTHEBESTPROOFEVAR!!!!11111111111ONEONETWOFIVESIX.

^^^Points^^^

[LlamaFluff]

Wow. Seriously?

Lets start by going through the main point of what you missed about what I just put up

Most of his defense against the case I made on wolf was "he was indecisive", which is pretty bullshit if you ask me. It is not indecisive to bring up similarities between xtoxm (town) and TI (scum) when I pressure TI. It is not idecisive to vote TM (pretty damn sure town) over TI (scum).

<cut>

Using Charters case, which I DO admit was weak, as a point against my case is undermining what I had to say.

Wolf was scummy, go look back at what he did and the alignments of players that he interacted with, especially around the same time as his interactions with TI. This does not read "indecisive townie" like you are pushing, the moves are deliberate.

You also are making my case weaker by attaching the slip attack that Charter is using onto it. The two thought processes are INDEPENDENT of each other. By continually including his case in mine, you are misrepresenting me.

Now onto what you have brought up.

you really don't understand the use of hypothetical's do you. i wasn't atually saying "if i flip scum" I was trying to point out that regardless of my alignment charter has mad ehimself appear to be scum.

This is kind of my point. No matter what the hell charter does, he is scum to you. It is almost to the point where charter can bust out three day vig kills picking off scum in each one in his next post, and you still will want to lynch him. You are saying that charter is scum for tunnel vision, while you are just as guilty as he is in the same aspect of the game, it will take a flip for either of you to ever admit the other is town, no matter what happens.

you admit your case is weak, but then you're just fine going along with it to try and lynch me.

Where do I say my case is weak? The stuff wolf has done is pretty damning, the role you claimed is rubbing me wrong, and most of what you decide to push and when just is setting off bells.

[LlamaFluff]

Also I have no clue why I havent tried this already but...

@Mod - KoC has a role called 'Daddy' but no (aka X). Was KoC a vanilla townie?

[LlamaFluff]

Anyone else starting to think that kmd is faking his PR?

[LlamaFluff]

@Kmd: What penalty do you incur for breaking your PR?

Dont answer this yet. We will get to it if needed.

Better questions

1) What is your PR exactly?
2) Do you get strikes or is it one slip and you are done for the day?
3) Was breaking your PR yesterday worth it to you?

[LlamaFluff]

^ Those seem like highly cryptic and ultimately useless things to ask, as if you want to hide information from people and try to figure it out. What use is knowing his exact post restriction? The second question seems pretty self-evident already, and the third one just seems pointless unless you want to speculate on what his penalty is.

Let me ask some stuff okay? With the other PR player dying I now have some stuff that I want to work out with kmd.

Still waiting for reasons you are voting me that I can respond to as well.

[LlamaFluff]

I used to be in debate, and I'd pull these kind of tactics too; if you don't have time or ability to refute all their claims, you basically just make them keep bringing it up until they forget or mess up, and count on the judge's bookkeeping being off. This REALLY reminds me of high-school debate in that Llama's trying to pick his arguments, and avoiding answering standing accusations (there's more that I know I've forgotten already) so that they are dropped.

Well lets look at your points

1) Information Mining - I disagree that im doing this. I push on who I think is scum and try to get them lynched. If they claim they claim and a more informed decision can be made, as more parts of the puzzle are exposed. Nothing is wrong with pushing a case. I am not rolefishing, or trying to instigate masslcaim, I am pushing cases.

2) Buddy to Charter - How is this even a scumtell? It would need Charter to be scum to actually have merit. You are forcing this into a tell since if Charter is scum, I am his buddy, if he is town, I am defending him to be right. I defend town as town, especially if I think that the player is town. This is a really weak point.

3) Pushing TI - Yes. Pushing the wagon of mafia with a PR over the easy lynch of TM was a scummy move. This is just more fabrication of turning every single thing I do into a scumtell.

4) Pushing RF - So thinking someone that is town is scum is a tell now? Where is the ZA vote? He was pushing RF. Where is the pressure of people on the Hybris wagon? He was town.

---

Stop being dense. You are really tunneled into me right now and basically ignoring everything I have done that you cant make into a scum tell. You even are making me starting the TI wagon a scumtell now. When you put something up that isnt a null tell at worst, I will respond to it more in depth. Right now I would suggest you to read people closely, there are a lot of things you are missing.

[LlamaFluff]

List

I can't get anything out of this post, but I figure it's something to look at. Zilla I did come up town. His three scum players, to me, were in an easy-to-push position at the time. The thing that bugs me about it is that he knows who his partners are, so he's going to treat them somehow differently than he normally would.

Everyone he asked a question to is town. Very very sure of that. I am pretty sure his whole LoS and town list is town players, not quite as sure there though.

[LlamaFluff]

^ Are you saying the players he asked questions to are town based on that post or based on the list or based on play? Because I don't see anything that excuses BlakAdder or CC at this point, nor have I heard your opinion of them being town... that I can recall this entire game, actually. Of course you're free to prove me wrong on that :/

I think at worst BA is third party given how he played D1. He kept going back between xtoxm and TI, but if he was actually trying to protect a scumbuddy then xtoxm was not the right place to be doing it, TM would of been. I just dont think scum BA would of played the end of D1 the way he did.

CC I have no clue on, but given that the rest of the list is either proven town or I have them as town, I would not be too surprised if he was town as well.

[LlamaFluff]

CC I have no clue on, but given that the rest of the list is either proven town or I have them as town, I would not be too surprised if he was town as well.

This is a perfect example of LF off logic in this game. I can see where he comes from but I think that not because a confirmed town is in a group of players that means every player of the list is town also. Also, Fluff, no comments of my post?

It was basically - "Why is he alive?" which I really dont know how to respond to

[LlamaFluff]

at this paint I would have to assume some domewhat decent stufs given tat=ht how BA raced was mroe of a defece of TI throuh the town rpoven xtoxm ltnch then they Tm lynch who I aslo think is pretty town at this pint. BA moving to te TM wagn later which he mved back and forth wiht the TI vote make sme think he is town since a TM vote woudl of saved TI. Will repost tomorrow when I cna fix all the drunken errors but the notn needed to me made asap.

[LlamaFluff]

Tell me why this NAME claim is being second guessed when

1) Name flavor should mean nothing
2) TM would of needed to fakenameclaim
2.1) When it still could easily be a character
2.2) When fake name claiming a major character would of been better

I dont want to copy/paste any of my old rants from other theme games about how damn stupid it is to be lynching based on name claim AT ALL since outside of some killing flavor or things along that line it has no effect on a game. Any good mod should be able to have the game made in such a way that a mass nameclaim would be adventagous to the scum.

Plus TM is town, see day one, see expected investigation from RF. Zilla is concerning me for casting suspicion on him for this.

[LlamaFluff]

I actually dont know why Poro and KoC are voting me. I think its because they think TM is scum and I am defending him... but it would be nice to get some clarification.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, did you ever answer this?

First off its nice to hear a case more then "I think Llama is the SK" and "meta", oh wait, thats all the case against me.

Did someone call you SK?

Zilla has called me third party a few times

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff: -3 (This was pro-town on Day 1, but Day 2 has been a mess, he's pushed on two people who have claimed, then backed off. At best, he's got a broken scumdar and too much impetus. At worst, he's keniving scum playing outside of his group.

Actually, that seems to fit with self-aligned. Make that a -5, since we know self-aligned is in this game

)

Here is one of the times, I thought there was another but I didnt find it on a skim.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm always suspicious of people who seem able to tell SK from mafia. Most town will just lump them together as scum. When a person is able to make a distinction, it makes me think they have extra info (ie, they're scum).

I'm also curious as to why zilla is so sure there's a self-aligned.

Its obvious there is a vig (who targeted xtoxm then RF), shot is nearly always mafia, so the last wierd kill methods is likely SK. It would be funny if Zilla replaced into the SK role who killed her though.

[LlamaFluff]

.........

why did you claim that? really? why would you ever claim that in that situation?

I believe it, and it reinforces the "TIs list was all town" train of thought I had but damn.... claiming it right now?

ZA should be getting lynched though, since CC being a tracker makes BA all the more town through list idea to me.

[LlamaFluff]

I will comment on this more after Zilla posts, either I am missing something obvious or people are acting irrationally. It could easily be either.

[LlamaFluff]

@KoC - Was Zilla1 or Zilla2 tracked N1?

@Zilla - If he tracked Zilla2, you need to fullclaim. Also yes or no, do you have role based information to back up this assertion (im not asking for a fullclaim here)?

The whole "which Zilla" is why I was thinking people were being irrational, Zilla had not claimed role related information at that time, which is why I was upset about KoC fullclaiming over what could of been assumed information from a found breadcrumb or something to that extent.

People seemed to take it as an information claim before Zilla just confirmed this, in that situation Zilla could easily of said there was no role based information, and it would of turned into a debate over "was it a softclaim" instead of a battle between role information like we have now.

It did seem heavily implied that there was information, but it wasnt for sure, people were presuming too much for my likes hence my last post wondering if I missed an earlier claim or people really were going to act on implied information instead of confrimed information.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote zilla

Yes or no, do you have any role based information to back up the assertion

[LlamaFluff]

No, she was on the TM wagon is the more plauseable reason. Lets go back to claiming if you have role based information... almost want to say claim or die but that may be a bit presumptuous.

Anyway, claiming is not full claiming. Family guy mini I claimed voteless early day one, JOAT late D1, and that my role was still in use when it wasnt D4 to trap mafia in a WIFOM loop that stopped them from submitting a NK. Full claiming is not the same as saying "I have a role"

[LlamaFluff]

Perfect cop reasoning progression.

Unvote Vote:LF.

Wait... I dont get it. Really.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, what is the importance of knowing whether I have a role? All I see is that it helps scum prioritize.

Helps more then just scum prioritize. There are other PRs you know that having more information out in the open also helps quite a bit

[LlamaFluff]

Im at L-2, but I dont know what kinds of vote manipulation are really going on right now so I will just claim to help get the game back on track.

Im the Chicken - Vigilantee, the "beat up" flavor kills are mine. This means I killed xtoxm N1 and RF N2.

Went for xtoxm because he was acting slightly scummy for the whole day, also I was very confused over the whole charter-wolf debate going on at the time and hoped to get some information on it from killing a passive supporter to what was going on there.

N2 I killed RF after a hell of a lot of debating. For about half of the night I had my kill sent in on Poro. The end of D2 just really bugged me from RF, especially that one statement. Given that she was on the TM wagon over the TI wagon, and had more connections to other suspects of mine, I switched the kill over to her.

Im actually pretty shocked that im alive given how close ive come to fullclaiming at times, especially at the beginning of the days.

Flavor breadcrumbs are as follows

I'll chalk you up to being a pushy townie for now, Llama, but IGMEOY.

Just establishing the pecking order

Grr kmd stealing my thunder on the Hybris case *raises fists*

Heh... imagining Zilla/PP doing a peter/chicken fight.

Flavor, not entirely sure who would be blowing people up with pants put the GUDE doesnt make any sense to be doing that. I know who you are, im about 90% sure who FL his, and there has been one other instance of flavor that only a few people will pick up on.

Vig breadcrumbs here

Vote Nitro Syles

Given that TI was scum and I think TM is town, I am much more willing to go along with this now.

Kind of surprised that xtoxm flipped town actually,

but it does add a little bit of force to the NS/Wolf case. Also yay to being alive D2, bumps my N1 death rate back below 50% though

I think we are looking at SK-FCC-vig killings here.

Llama : why do you think there is a vig? And why are you alive D2? Explain, plz.

Exploding pants sounds like a SK. Flavor also seems to only have one scum faction, FCC. Given that there were three kills, I would assume the last one was a vig, since two SKs dont make much sense, and a 20 player game I would expect a vig.

Starting to think that Zilla replaced anti-town here.

I dont deny that xtoxm didnt look too town, which is why I think he was vigged instead of killed by anti-town.

However you are ignoring the fact that Wolf never really rejected the TI wagon, and always tried to replace it with a different player (xtoxm) who was not really suspected much if at all by wolf.

[LlamaFluff]

See... this is why wagoning up Zilla was stupid when KoC had not clarified. I win. People were being irrational.

unvote
vote ZA

[LlamaFluff]

I give up being a vig. Hate this role so very very much...

[LlamaFluff]

Reporting live from Quahog. We would like to ask Llama which of the kills was his doing. Perhaps Zilla?

Poro, not Zilla. Reading flavor scene helps

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Acid Flux

I think its a better wagon then the tubby one, will explain a little more in depth later tonight.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, why did you kill Poro instead of Zone?

BA-scum makes me rethink ZA-scum given how much BA pushed for his lynch yesterday (and basically confirms TM-town).

Poro had been a high suspect of mine for a while, as I stated he was almost my N2 target, and with BAs interactions making me completely secondguess ZAs alignment, I decided to opt for the Poro vig. Starting to rethink a tubby wagon though being acceptable, but as of now I like AF-wagon more. Should have a bit of a case up tonight depending on how fast I can finish my aquatic chem stuff.

[LlamaFluff]

First generation of AF was pacman, who for the most part spent his part of the day attacking PP for being annoying instead of attacking PP for being scummy. He never really voted him though, or anyone else outside of the random stage for that matter.

AF came in near the end of D1, and never put down a vote, even though he acknowlaged the two possible choices were TM and TI before the deadline hit. The fact that it was near deadline has been brought up before, but even if no one supplied the summary you wanted, deadline was approaching and usually reading the last few pages is a good way to get your bearings in a pressure situation. Hell, I made a bigger post on why TI should be getting lynched less then ten posts above you.

Your first vote is for me for saying I am very sure TM is town (I still am sure of this, only moreso then before). This also is following one of my irks where a player acts on conclusion B when dependent A has yet to be proven. He soon votes TM while giving no reasons for the vote at all.

AF votes tubby for what appears to be the sake of just getting the game to move along, and then goes into a rant over breadcrumbing and role claims around the time that tubby claimed DV. He again makes a vote, this time for Hybris, with very little reasoning to back it up. It just gives me the feeling of trying to rush the day to get to night, something that TI was also trying to admittedly do.

Now he moves back to Charter, again with no cited reasoning. This whole random wagoning thing on anyone that has votes is starting to get annoying. At least he had (in the early game) expressed some suspicion of Charter, but the Hybris and Tubby votes were the first suspicion of them he had shown all game. The out of nowhere he shows ZA as his third scum pick, again with no reasoning. Also there appears to be willingness to move back to a Hybris lynch (still not suported by any evidence).

All for now.

Also TM and kmd are pretty obv town at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

need to read what happened a few times

[LlamaFluff]

<Obligatory Speech on Character Claim Merit>

Now that its out of the way, what is the

flavor

of your role, not the title. My PM doesnt just say that I am the vig like in a normal mini. Give some more then what you have about the flavor.

[LlamaFluff]

Its almost like watching ZA fight himself... the similar personalities... obsceneties... wow

[LlamaFluff]

Has AF claimed targets yet? Do you get results every night?

Also thats a weak vote... I dont see ZA as cult recruiter (how you could unrecruit a cult is even more perplexing). Even if you are looking for the SK thats called psycologist and is easy enough to fake.

[LlamaFluff]

Has AF claimed targets yet? Do you get results every night?

Night 1: Zilla V.1
Night 2: ZONEACE
Night 3: Charter

And according to the clarification I requested, I don't actually get any results. It's a blind role. I'm not told if the player was or was not recruited.

And as far as voting ZA? I've already stated my reasons. Claiming there's no Recruiter in the game when his role clearly is similar to a Recruiter, and the fact that a new player gets added to the game (which in and of itself is wacky, I've never seen that before) could easily qualify as a Cult, the way that farside runs games.

At this point, I'm a pretty happy guy. If I do end up in the Noose, then I know that ZONEACE isn't far behind.

Wow this sounds really similar to something I just won a game with (psych who only gets results if they find SK). Anyway, I have no way of knowing what happens if a cult "unrecruter" hits a cult leader (partially due to my massive contempt for cults not announced in signup phase).

I am going to run down the reasons that I am now going back to thinking you are scum

1) That case I put up earlier.
2) Your claim, unrecruit makes zero sense as you essentially have a town aligned who knows the CL and all of the anti-town group. I could actually of bought a cult cop, cult recruit blocker, un-framer, or something to that extent.
3) No results. I think its called "Courage of Conviction". You commonly see this with fakeclaiming scum trying to pass as informational roles. It means that you are afraid to actually confirm someone since it not only lowers the lynching pool, but if you clear someone who isnt supposed to be clear, you get lynched.
4) You targeted ZA and just voted him. If you are what you claim ZA cant possibly be cult, which you continue to make him out to be even though it really doesnt make a whole lot of sense.
5) Searching masons is

NOT

cult.

[LlamaFluff]

Kill: Acid Flux

[LlamaFluff]

Im not a day vig, just did it instead of voting to see if I could get any "go scum" type posts out of people

I hope you got a side order of 'your words' and 'crow' to go along with your Birthday Cake, ZONEACE

Awesome quote

[LlamaFluff]

finally.....

[LlamaFluff]

oh yeah... we should massclaim today, or at least consider it

[LlamaFluff]

So this makes EK the last FCC and Charter the NK-immune SK right?

TM is complete town... I still hold to that one since a SK would

never

claim VT day one like that, mafia might if their lynch benifits some scum members but the chance there is still low.

Kmd I really think is town too, no shot at FCC really, small SK but negligable at this point in the game.

This leaves ZA, Charter, EK as the anti-town roles. I am sure enough of this to try and start seeing if we can break the game or not.

Now, if we call kmd and TM 100% town for now we have the following things to think about. First is the deputy claim. With this we know that TM and ZA are not FCC, and given how the last D/N cycle played out, kmd is really town looking to me as well. So FCC is either EK or Charter in this case.

Now we have the SK to deal with (still dismissing the cult option here, especially since only VT (TM) is usually recruitable). I already pointed out how I dont think that the SK is TM. This leaves kmd, EK, Charter, ZA. Again as pointed out I dont think kmd is going to be the SK, now while ZA I still dont like the role of given it only has ups... I dont think he is SK, especially if they were searching it would be massive obv if he was tracked.

So now... this again leaves EK and Charter leaving me to try and break the game with the following set of actions

- We can assume no more roleblockers
- We can assume at least two anti-town roles

1) We lynch Charter
2) I vig EK

I think this gets rid of the SK and FCC in rapid succession. In the event that Charter is FCC, I still will vig EK since a lack of "beat up" kill and my death would mean she is NK immune and the SK. In the event of charter-town, I would need to FCC hunt... which I think still leads to a vig of EK.

I dunno... really think that TM/kmd are town at this point, and there should be some way to figure a win out of this situation (the fact that I expected 5 FCC is unsettling though)

[LlamaFluff]

what the fuck is going on?

[LlamaFluff]

I hate all of you at this point for making me have to think more AFTER class then during class. I still lean to the Charter lynch at this point, and the EK vig... but am still not sure.

Kinda wish I knew how many scum there were... if there are three anti town alive.. ugh

[LlamaFluff]

I would agree to it if you could tell me how killing me would help.

Charter claimed BP which means he is either GF or SK. If he is SK... FCC are in you-kmd-ZA (given I still really think TM is town). If he is FCCGF, killing you would first of all tell us how many anti-town are left, since a deputy flip would mean you were telling the truth, and kmd is last scum.

So basically

-Charter SK
--Forces anti-town between you-kmd-ZA.
---You target kmd, any result still leaves questions

-Charter GF
--Forces any remaining FCC to kmd-you
--At daybreak we see how many FCC are alive
---Your deputy flip clears all but kmd as FCC
--I still think you fit as SK

[LlamaFluff]

Here is what I am going to do

1)

Vote Charter

Really dont think he is town, and very high likely hood is anti-town, basically assured to be NK immune as well.

2) In the event that Charter is SK
2.1) I am going to vig EK.
2.1.1) No beat up flavor means she is GF and NK immune
2.1.2) EK death means scum is kmd

3) In the event that Charter is GF
3.1) I am not tipping my hand, do not act on any reason for my kill failing

4) In the event that charter is pro-town
4.1) I am not tipping my hand, do not act on any reason for my kill failing

I really hate how much attention I am getting here, but this is what I am sure of

1) TM is town
2) Charter has NK immunity

Yeah thats not a lot is it?

Depending on how night pans out please dont rule out prisoners dillema no lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

well damn... I had EK right going into night (even about being NK immune), but had kmd as the last scum and not ZA.

By the way, I really really really hated being a vig... like really hated so much I actually debated just not sending in any kills after a little.

[LlamaFluff]

ugh. Llama killing KMD gave the win to the SK.

Blame distancing... it was obvious that EK was SK after that flip, and that TM was town. I needed to kill FCC and it was you or kmd. I still say wolf was legitimately scummy though and that role of yours had no downside which just made it taste bad while still seeming legit.

Having zero confidence in choices without having others see and talk about, even if disagree just makes me a bad vig. Its why I always post just about everything in the thread I am thinking, the only way to actually make me sure enough about something.

Also for what I was talking about three metas for me, town I am really jumpy, mafia I usually am more certain as kmd said. As a PR though I tend to be more certain just because I need to try and trick myself into gaining confidence.

[LlamaFluff]

well damn... I had EK right going into night (even about being NK immune), but had kmd as the last scum and not ZA.

By the way, I really really really hated being a vig... like really hated so much I actually debated just not sending in any kills after a little.

Did you change to kmd because charter flipped GF?

My plan was if charter was SK kill you, if he was GF kill kmd. I would of needed to kill FCC to win at that point, I knew what you were at that point, so I needed a FCC kill to win, hope I got double killed AND people realized what I did about you being SK. Guessed wrong on who it was though.

[LlamaFluff]

LOL @ Charter tunneling on a "slip" he "caught" his scumbuddy on!!!

Wolf still was legitimately scummy damn it!

[LlamaFluff]

*Flipping through notes*

N1 I went back and forth between xtoxm, wolf/NS/ZA and KoC

N2 RF (was on Poro for a while) also debated AF who I decided was newbie town and Tajo who I though was doctor on a close read

N3 Went back to Poro, debated ZA and Tajo kills again

N4 Started on EK, changed to Tajo pretty fast

N5 Was kmd or ZA, went with kmd

[LlamaFluff]

Oh, EK, why did you kill me twice? What set you off on me?

You were really obv-town at the end of D1 actually, my notes had you at something like third most likely town. I really am a shoddy shot though it seems... I just never can trust myself enough since so much of my opinions I base on reactions to presentation of facts instead of facts alone.