Family Guy Mafia - Game Over

[Zilla]

/Oy confirmed, sorry to be the last in the gate but election night.. you know.

[Zilla]

This being my first MS game, I can say that this Day 1 is the most chaotic I've ever seen. The wagon on xtoxm is suspicious, but xtoxm is suspicious in the first place. What was the scum/town ratio in this one again?

With all that on the table, I'm going to go with

Vote: Puta puta

for

quick! let's insta-wagon!

and

must...join...wagon... Unvote Vote:Xtoxm

I'm guessing it's a level 2 WIFOM-attention whore move, and he's attempting to hide in plain sight.

[Zilla]

To get things started? Puta, we're three pages of game into this, I think things have been "started" already.

[Zilla]

Non post restricted people should neither be acting like they have post restrictions or acting like characters. It will only manage to end badly.

@Zilla - How serious was that vote of yours?

It's about a 7 on a 10 scale of seriousness.

I think this side-show is distracting and counterpurposeful. If KMD was scum, I don't think he'd want to attract attention by faking a post restriction, and I don't think that post restriction would apply to scum (Being a newsanchor in Quahog, he'd likely be against the FCC).

At worst, a Tom Tucker could be self-aligned. I think this entire branch of investigation is a red-herring.

I'm sticking with Puta, because not-posting does not make you less deserving. XD

[Zilla]

I suppose it's entirely possible for Tom to be a double-agent FCC, if the flavor goes the way of usual cast members being anti-town... I figured scum would be Generic FCC Agent #1 and the like, but it could be that they're characters who would side with FCC stipulations and want to clean up Quahog.

Of course, Tom's in a strange position here, being on TV himself. He could be pro-FCC as a sycophantic move to try to gain more power, or he could be anti-FCC on principle of wanting to be able to say whatever he wants on the news and not have the FCC keeping him down. He might be for a cleaner city, but I think it's more likely he's against it, because he wouldn't have as much to report on in a cleaned up Quahog.

If he's town though, this is stealing the stage and letting scum hide in the shadows...

[Zilla]

mind backing that up? Is my analysis too scummy for you? XD

[Zilla]

I suppose it's entirely possible for Tom to be a double-agent FCC,

if the flavor goes the way of usual cast members being anti-town... I figured scum would be Generic FCC Agent #1 and the like, but it could be that they're characters who would side with FCC stipulations and want to clean up Quahog.

My point is made clear in the very next sentence.

[Zilla]

the rest of my post is simply flavor analysis, and checking the possibility of Tom being scum as far as the flavor works. It's implied he has a post restriction, and the post restriction implies he's Tom, and Tom may or may not be scum.

[Zilla]

The part beyond the quote. Where I do what I said I did...

[Zilla]

I don't get why you don't like my post, as I'm agreeing that Tom's not necessarily clean. I thought he would be at first, or at the very least, not FCC.

[Zilla]

I honestly still suspect Puta Puta and I agree with you about character and flavor being distracting, I guess I missed the part where that pertained to me... I was trying to get it all out of the way, but I ended up reading too much into it myself.

Either way, I feel relatively safe sticking up for KMD at this point, I don't see any reason to implicate him other than having a post restriction so far, but if he makes a slip, I'll be all over him.

[Zilla]

The last game I did that, scum jumped on me for implicating half the town XD

[Zilla]

I don't like your softcore bullying, Llama. I obviously don't have much to go on for Puta, but I still spelled out why he registered on my radar, and he's done nothing to allay my suspicions.

@ Kloud, indeed, I got sucked into it as well, but I was trying to move on past the post-restriction arguement and instead argue what his soft-claim meant. If it's true that character has nothing at all to do with alignment, then we have no information, and can essentially sum up that we know nothing about KMD's alignment. If character does have something to do with it, then my arguments can be applied.

I'll chalk you up to being a pushy townie for now, Llama, but IGMEOY.

[Zilla]

Weak sauce people.

Zilla, your posts in which you discussed flavour were bad. You shouldn't have done that. Many players said it is bad, with xtoxm perhaps the only exception. But still you did it. Bear the consequences

Unvote Vote Zilla

How in the hell were they "bad"? The flavor analysis was at least a step above what we were doing before, which was post-restriction analysis. There's a total of ONE post between my posts in question.

Llama, I could ask you what reason you had for voting Hybris earlier, before she "came to my rescue" by doing pretty much exactly what I would have done. I'll let you know now that if I die and come up town, I'll be haunting you from the grave. Remember this town, please.

@ Porochaz: I see the implications there, but 1) she answered by quoting me directly, 2) I would have done the same thing, and 3) the question was in no way implicating me as scum, why would I need "defending"?

What makes Puta Puta so innocent that my voting of him is scummy?

I smell a wagon.

[Zilla]

I'll chalk you up to being a pushy townie for now, Llama, but IGMEOY.

Just establishing the pecking order

In all seriousness though, I dont think you really have much of a case on PP, and the attempt to justify the existance of one is coming off as scummy to me. More so when you mix in all the flavor and character-alignment pairing you have done.

You know, the funniest thing of this is that scum did the EXACT same thing to me in another game offsite. First, in regards to "character-alignment pairing", the only thing I said on this was that I didn't believe Tom Tucker to be FCC aligned. I said he may be self-aligned at worst, I didn't say he WAS self-aligned. The purpose of this statement was that, although he wouldn't be FCC, he could still be scum by being self-aligned, meaning to keep our options open.

That's it.

And then my next post, I recounted the position that "Tom is not FCC" on the grounds that character doesn't indicate alignment, as I've grown more used to from the last few games I'd played offsite.

Your entire construction against me, ignoring the content of my posts and demonizing me, are what's REALLY bugging me about you. I don't mind a solid argument against me, but so far, your case against me has consisted of:

I talked about flavor.
I'm voting Puta on a "weak" argument.

I'll admit there's not much Puta's giving us, but I can't say I have a stronger position on him now because he hasn't given us anything to go on since random stage. I have a knack for picking up scum through the random stage though, and your sideways OMGUS on me and defense of Puta make me feel justified. If Puta comes up scum, I know where to turn next.

[Zilla]

I'm uneasy about Zilla's agressiveness. I can understand being agressive, but doing it this early is unusual. I'll try and check his meta to see if he is always this agressive.

Sorry, you'd have to go offsite to do that, and you'll see that I usually am the one to lead town-investigations, and that I have a history of finding my own targets.

[Zilla]

Moresh like a shtep below...flavor analyshee...analyshy...analy...ah, shcrew it...ish a completely ushelesh way to looksh like you are conshributing wishout acshually doing sho. Moresh importantly...it dishtractsh from shcumhunting!

I didn't see the value of the post-restriction line of questioning we were miring ourselves in, THAT seemed pointless.

Again, this is my first MS game, but I'm finding this one to consist of far more followers than the ones I usually play. Scum's going to have an easy time leading this town around if we don't actually look at everyone.

Right now, I'm very interested in Puta Puta's alignment because of the extra information we gather from his lynch. I really don't like how Llama seems to consider him innocent when we have nothing to base it off of. I feel lynching Puta will tell us something about Llama, and potentially some of the others that shallowly parrot him (Mana_Ku's empty skew on my post, for one).

[Zilla]

Llama, I could ask you what reason you had for voting Hybris earlier, before she "came to my rescue" by doing pretty much exactly what I would have done. I'll let you know now that if I die and come up town, I'll be haunting you from the grave. Remember this town, please

Atesh alreadish? Jeesh...I don'tsh thinksh that helpsh you...

I don't know if I understand you, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, then I don't really care if it "helps me," I care if it helps town. If you DO lynch me, I want this angle examined.

[Zilla]

How the heck is that rolefishing? I'm not looking for roles at all. I'm saying if we lynch you, we get info on Llama.

PLEASE stop misreading/misunderstanding/misinterpreting/skewing my posts!

[Zilla]

Appealsh to emoshun ish whatsh I meant by AtEsh. And doesh it not helpsh town for a townie to shtay alive by not sheeming shcummy? It feelsh a lot likesh you are trying to shay thatsh "Town will be shorry", but the problemsh with thish is you aren'tsh really activelysh shcumhunting.

I'm not saying town will be sorry. I'm saying that if I die, I want town to investigate Llama.

See above comment, PLEASE stop misreading/misinterpreting/misunderstanding/skewing my posts!

[Zilla]

First, in regards to "character-alignment pairing", the only thing I said on this was that I didn't believe Tom Tucker to be FCC aligned. I said he may be self-aligned at worst, I didn't say he WAS self-aligned. The purpose of this statement was that, although he wouldn't be FCC, he could still be scum by being self-aligned, meaning to keep our options open.

Discounting players as scum for claiming a role is something that should never be done. If a mod makes a theme game well enough, mass character claim should not give an edge to the town, and I feel should be benificial to the scum. I dont care what character a player claims, what I care about is what their role is more then anything else.

Answered in my next post. Quit harpin' on me for it!

And then my next post, I recounted the position that "Tom is not FCC" on the grounds that character doesn't indicate alignment, as I've grown more used to from the last few games I'd played offsite.

How many games did you play between these two statements then?

My fault for not being clear, I meant to say that I had come into the game thinking characters and alignments were related because in the games I usually play, this is so. I'm saying "character doesn't indicate alignment, contrary to what I've grown used to from the last few games I've played offsite."

I talked about flavor.
I'm voting Puta on a "weak" argument.

You also should realize that

I am not voting you

. I do consider each of these things scummy, but you are calling me scum for running you up on weak logic when I am not voting you right now.

These were addressed to my voters, who seem to vote me by borrowing your flawed logic.

I'll admit there's not much Puta's giving us, but I can't say I have a stronger position on him now because he hasn't given us anything to go on since random stage. I have a knack for picking up scum through the random stage though, and your sideways OMGUS on me and defense of Puta make me feel justified. If Puta comes up scum, I know where to turn next.

This seems to be saying you are basing your vote partially on lurking. Looking at the player list I cant remember anything that TM, CC, TI, GS, MK or RF has said this game. If you are looking for people not participating, I dont think someone like PP is the best place to look. The people who are purposefully lurking will eventually be replaced or stand risk of getting killed either way soon enough too.

[/quote]

Mistaken premise here, I'm not voting based on lurking at all, I'm voting based on the scant few posts he has made. His lurking does nothing either way aside from a slight incrimination because he has posted without offering anything. Further evidence of you softly defending him by skewing my posts has been noted.

[Zilla]

EBWOP:

I'm voting based on

the content of

the scant few posts he has made.

[Zilla]

Oy, where to start?

First off, I've set the record straight, and I annul ANY assertion that I ever made that Tom must be non-FCC. STRIKE IT FROM THE RECORD. Is that so hard to do?

Nest, KMD's actualy playing more town than most of town, I feel. Maybe you people play an entirely new league and my intuition on players is totally off, but if there's anyone I feel is town at this point, it's KMD. If he's scum, he's doing a better job of blending than most.

On the question answering, it saved nobody of anything. What convoluted logic is that that I could have answered "Why do you suspect Puta?" in a way that would incriminate either of us?

Honestly, I'm seeing better candidates finally, but I hate to take off my vote on someone who I suspected who subsequently went into hiding. I hate that scum can stay silent and their transgressions are forgotten.

Unvote: Puta Puta
Vote: Mana_Ku

for horrible logic.

[Zilla]

EBWOP:
The AtE thing, I see where you're coming from now, the "you" I was haunting in that was Llama, not town. XD Yeah, misplaced antecedents cause mass confusion yet agian.

[Zilla]

I retracted it. You can't keep holding me for saying something I'm not pushing. I was misinformed, and pushing forward that I'm scum because I once said Tom can't be FCC is stupid. Furthermore, it's not even that scummy to begin with, I'm just trying to draw conclusions. Can't someone draw the wrong conclusion about something? I mean, seriously. I ADMIT I WAS WRONG. If you can point out how in the hell my actions are scummy in that regard, go ahead.

A:"It's raining."
B:"No, it's just overcast."
A:"Oh, you're right. Sorry."
C:"OH MY GOD, YOU'RE SCUM!"

[Zilla]

You know, I'm just done.

unvote
Vote: Zilla

You guys play way too deep that you're missing a lot of the surface stuff. This is likely my last post here, so I want to say when I die, don't let that clear anyone, but I seriously want Llama, Puta, and Mana Ku looked at.

[Zilla]

I honestly think we'll learn a ton more by lynching me than leaving me alive at this point, and I feel it's the best way to get back at the people who somehow think that because I thought I had a logical way to eliminate one target that was flawed, AND I CORRECTED MYSELF, that I must be scum for EVER EVEN THINKING OF IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST THINGS WHEN YOU DON'T LISTEN TO MY DEFENSE!

The thick-headedness of that entire logic is what's driving me to the suicide vote. I can't argue with these people because "I can't make that post go away." WHAT IS SO INCRIMINATING ABOUT TRYING TO GET MORE INFORMATION?

I never made extention that KMD had to be Tom Tucker, and all his complaining about his post restriction makes me doubt that it's a true post restriction, really. I'm feeling it's self-imposed, and he's sticking with it.

Here's ManaKu's horrible logic:

Zilla, want to see an example why i think it's bad what you did?

the rest of my post is simply flavor analysis, and checking the possibility of Tom being scum as far as the flavor works. It's implied he has a post restriction, and the post restriction implies he's Tom, and Tom may or may not be scum.

You're implying that KMD is Tom and you start discussing if Tom's pro-town, anti-town or 3rd party.
First of all, we can't know if KMD is Tom.
Second, why is it useful for town to know if KMD is Tom?
Third, why would you base candidate of lynch upon flavour.
And fourth, the discussion is distracting.

Because the games I'm used to, flavor is truly linked to alignment. I just finished Bioshock, where it was Town vs Fontaine vs Ryan vs Jack. Character ID was essentially analogous with alignment. Most of the games I've played have been that way. I was alerted that this isn't the case here, so I retracted that logic. WHAT IS SCUMMY ABOUT THAT? Good GOD.

1) I never said we can KNOW that KMD is Tom Tucker. I'm saying that's what he wants us to think, I never say that it's true or false. I'm speculating on the hypothetical scenario. IS THAT NOT ALLOWED?

2) Under the assumptions I had, if KMD was Tom, Tom would likely not be FCC.

3) See #2.

4) distracting from what, analyzing whether he had a post restriction just be asking him? There's no way to know for sure if he has one or not, I found that line of questoining pointless, so I took it in a direction that we can actually speculate on.

As for Hybris parroting me, I don't have an answer to that. I don't find it scummy in itself, because at least he isn't pushing a vote on someone through skewed logic like scum actually tends to do. It's possible he's scum defending what he really sees as a losing case so when I die, he can get the benefit of aiding a townie.

I do consider myself a worthy lynch at this point though, hopefully condemning my wagoners with my innocence. I only worry that scum isn't actually on my case, so they want me gone to send town into a spiral of self-lynching. I'm still wary of lurkers, STILL wary of Puta who hasn't put his vote on anyone and with the few posts he has made, has accrued my suspicion.

So, I'm going back there.

Unvote: Zilla
Vote: Puta

[Zilla]

a) Start post 120 by saying that the discussion at the time concerning KMD being Tom is counterproductive and distracting, then follow this sentence with a WIFOM statement that only begs for further speculation to be generated (in my opinion at least).

I was saying asking him if he had a post restriction, and focusing on that angle was a WIFOM and pointless.

b) You go on to say, despite your earlier statement of this whole discussion being a distraction, that "KMD could be self-aligned, at worst" and that this "entire branch of investigation is a red herring." There is a stark contradiction in the first paragraph and second paragraph, as you are first advocating that we move past the discussion of KMD's character and get to scumhunting, then add to the conversation by adding your own speculation to the mix. [/b]
I wanted to offer closing thoughts on it, hopefully taking the logic as far as it would go so we could drop it. I'm aware how it looks.

This makes me feel as if you were trying to look pro-town by advocating scumhunting, but then continued to fuel the discussion as a means to keep everyone distracted. This may or may not be your actual intentions (I know you will say the latter), but even so, I did not and do not like this post at all.

Duly noted. I know it was a flawed post all in all, but take into account what I thought were the conditions at the time. Understand that I thought character and alignment were linked.

c) In post 122 continue speculation. Others have already addressed this post extensively, but I will throw in my two cents as well. My dislike of this post coincides with my dislike of post 120, in that it contradicts your initial premiss that the conversation was unhelpful. If it is unhelpful, then openly stating theories void of any reason or evidence while being based on pure speculation of the flavor only deters your cause even further. I have no problem with someone looking at all possibilities, as I tend to do that myself, but if you are going to do so, have some kind of evidence/solid reasoning to back it up as opposed to just coming up with things based off of a PR and flavor.

I thought flavor WAS a valid reason.

d)

If he's town though, this is stealing the stage and letting scum hide in the shadows...

This to me seems like someone trying to plant seeds of doubt into the group, alluding to the notion that KMD is trying to draw attention to himself so that scum can go undetected. I do not like this statement at all, for to me it looks like the beginnings of someone trying to condemn another player based off the fact that he has a PR.

lol wut? I'm not condemning a person based on their PR at all, I

was

doing the opposite, saying his PR cleared him of being FCC. Again, I no longer believe that. In fact, this whole block quote is weird in itself. You're saying he's intentionally drawing attention to himself to allow scum to hide? Why would he do that if he was town? Why would he do that if he was scum?

@ Kloud, indeed, I got sucked into it as well, but I was trying to move on past the post-restriction arguement and

instead argue what his soft-claim meant.

If it's true that character has nothing at all to do with alignment, then we have no information, and can essentially sum up that we know nothing about KMD's alignment.

If character does have something to do with it, then my arguments can be applied.

What soft-claim are you referencing? Him having a PR? You were not arguing anything, you were making WIFOM arguments then toss around the idea that he could be self-aligned without any reasoning that would support the claim.

I'm referring to the PR, which may be self-imposed, which makes it analogous to soft-claiming Tom Tucker. Afterward, I'm talking about how if character and alignment mean anything, Tom Tucker probably isn't FCC, which doesn't instantly clear him, because he could still be self-aligned. IN NO WAY AM I ARGUING THAT HE

IS

SELF ALIGNED. I HAVE

NEVER

EVER

SAID HE

IS

SELF ALIGNED. I just wanted to say that, even if he wasn't FCC, that doesn't make him pro-town. THAT'S ALL.

Exactly! The game, at the time, was only on page 6, meaning there was (and still is) very little information about any player. We do not know anything about KMD's alignment, and stating theories based off of flavor alone will not help to acquire said information about any player's alignment. That is why we needed to get out of the speculation conversations surrounding KMD's PR, and is also why I find you suspicious for continuing to add to this conversation after having stated the need to get the game back on track.

I wanted to get what we could out of the argument and move on, and at the time, I thought my analysis was at least better than what we were doing. It turns out it wasn't.

As said already, just because you say you did not mean (or annul) everything you said earlier does not clear your slate. The statements were scummy, and that is not going to change. It is one thing to be misinformed. It is one thing to draw conclusions as well. It is another case entirely when you begin to drawn conclusions based off no information at all, as you were only encouraging further speculation that would have kept the town from scumhunting.

Thank you for letting me know being wrong about something is fatal.

[Zilla]

UGH, formatting issues like crazy in the last post but I can't touch it now...

I'm used to being able to quick-edit my posts...

There's a part in that block quote where I ended up accidentally bolding what he said instead of quoting what he said. My responses are not-bolded after B and C.

Just to clarify, that part should look like this.

b) You go on to say, despite your earlier statement of this whole discussion being a distraction, that "KMD could be self-aligned, at worst" and that this "entire branch of investigation is a red herring." There is a stark contradiction in the first paragraph and second paragraph, as you are first advocating that we move past the discussion of KMD's character and get to scumhunting, then add to the conversation by adding your own speculation to the mix.

I wanted to offer closing thoughts on it, hopefully taking the logic as far as it would go so we could drop it. I'm aware how it looks.

This makes me feel as if you were trying to look pro-town by advocating scumhunting, but then continued to fuel the discussion as a means to keep everyone distracted. This may or may not be your actual intentions (I know you will say the latter), but even so, I did not and do not like this post at all.

Duly noted. I know it was a flawed post all in all, but take into account what I thought were the conditions at the time. Understand that I thought character and alignment were linked.

c) In post 122 continue speculation. Others have already addressed this post extensively, but I will throw in my two cents as well. My dislike of this post coincides with my dislike of post 120, in that it contradicts your initial premiss that the conversation was unhelpful. If it is unhelpful, then openly stating theories void of any reason or evidence while being based on pure speculation of the flavor only deters your cause even further. I have no problem with someone looking at all possibilities, as I tend to do that myself, but if you are going to do so, have some kind of evidence/solid reasoning to back it up as opposed to just coming up with things based off of a PR and flavor.

I thought flavor WAS a valid reason.

[Zilla]

I forgot how big the game was, I thought I was closer to lynch than that. Also, I'm not wanting a replacement, I wanted to finally end the matter of speculation on me so you guys could stop wasting time and actually hunt scum, because I felt that enough people had put forward enough dumb reasoning that my death and confirmation would implicate them. I'm still up for it.

On Elvis adding to the fray: Weak logic, looks like you wanted to vote me and were looking for any excuse to do so, and actually that was a side-perk to my plan. I hate to spring the trap this early but I do have renewed faith in town. Elvis, your bloodthirst has been noted.

KMD's allegations on Hybris attract me more than my Puta vote, but he's not forgotten. REMEMBER THE PUTA.

Unvote: Puta Puta
Vote: Hybris

Mana, where did you "ask everyone if it's good?" and what does that matter to this case? Do I have to say it AGAIN?

Do you see now that flavour doesn't always prove a thing?

YES, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS THE

WHOLE

TIME! THANK YOU FOR FINALLY SEEING MY POINT.

[Zilla]

If I needed an excuse to vote you, I could have done it a long time ago instead of trying to get info out of you. If I'm bloodthirsty, then why are you voting hybris? You're just going to the next largest wagon, and not thinking of any of your own reasons for doing so. That way you can blame it on KMD if things go bad with hybris -- he put forth the reasoning, not you.

He took all the good points, aside from the point I brought up that he could be scum parroting me to get the added townie benefit. I don't feel like reiterating the same things he's said, and really, he's just summarized the case on him that other players have made themselves.

I'm not voting you because Hybris comes off scummier than you, but you're doing your best to take that spot. If Hybris is clean and you aren't, this could be a post meant to implicate both KMD and me when he comes up town. This strategy seems like a really longshot, I'm still thinking you're a misguided townie at this point.

[Zilla]

Rereading the thread, I'm pretty sure Elvis is just misguided, seeing a lot of his posts are grilling for information. Mana's looking odd though.

Hybris, I'm not sure if I feel as strongly after rereading. More often than not, I see scum pursue an agenda rather than make empty posts. He hasn't really pushed on anyone.

Unvote: Hybris

Back to Puta again.

Vote: Puta Puta

I figure it's at least a good idea to get him to post more, you know, since he really dropped off the radar after I first set up shop against him. The way I see it, if Puta's scum, he goes into hiding while the rest of scum tries to discredit me to keep him looking clean. There's no logical reason to vote me solely for voting Puta. Hence the arguments crafted on misinterpreting or skewing my posts.

[Zilla]

Catching up.

the rest of my post is simply flavor analysis, and checking the possibility of Tom being scum as far as the flavor works. It's implied he has a post restriction, and the post restriction implies he's Tom, and Tom may or may not be scum.

If alignment can be determined from flavor, this is a horribly set up game. Did Kmd ever claim? Why does he have to be Tom, why not Diane?

1) For the LAST time, and I mean it.

I KNOW FLAVOR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ALIGNMENT NOW. STOP TRYING TO INSIST THAT I THINK IT DOESN'T. I WAS

WRONG

. DROP IT.

2) His PR (whether self-imposed or not) is from Tom's perspective. He goes to Diane sometimes.

Either way, I feel relatively safe sticking up for KMD at this point, I don't see any reason to implicate him other than having a post restriction so far, but if he makes a slip, I'll be all over him.

YOU CANNOT DETERMINE ALIGNMENT FROM POST RESTRICTIONS. EVEN CONSIDERING IT IS

INCREDIBLY

SCUMMY.

I'm not. I'm saying he's town by how he's acting, not his role.

READ MY POSTS.

Plenty of reasons to vote Zilla. I find this one incredibly weak.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but what are all these "reasons to vote Zilla?" I see a flawed premise, and your reason for voting me is just as shady.

[Zilla]

Xtoxm, do you have anything on Pacman?

....

Pacman, do you have anything on Xtoxm? Same to Puta.

I haven't seen any arguments for those votes, really.

[Zilla]

I'm not appealing to emotion, I'm saying some people are stupid, because if they keep insisting I'm using flavor, they are, and some people can't see that. If you mean the self-vote, I really wanted to end it to bolster my claims, because then, finally, I'd be confirmed and my accusers would get their comeuppance, and I figured it'd bag at least two scum in the process. I have no problem being a martyr. Aside from that, I'm using size changes to catch attention because SOME PEOPLE don't like to actually read my posts, or are ignoring parts of them.

[Zilla]

Xtoxm has posted quite a bit, more than I can recall you posting in the recent timeframe.

[Zilla]

I agree with some of the thing zilla is saying, but he just took a massive credibility hit with that outburst.

Zilla
Goon

Gender: Gender:Female

Joined: 02 Nov 2008

No idea what you're talking about, how is questioning shaky votes a credibility hit? If you mean my post before that, it's because I'm so damn tired of answering the same argument when people don't bother to read my replies.

[Zilla]

Ooooh but "His earlier posts don't just go away" ooooooo!!!

And if I've learned anything, you CAN'T AFFORD TO BE WRONG.

Sorry I'm bitter.

[Zilla]

Oh noez, my attempt at being under the radar is unmasked!! Will I be the next lamb to the slaughter? Only time will tell.

Heed my warning town, 'there's no art to find the mind's construction in the face'

Nice to see your fingers still work, but does your brain?

[Zilla]

FoS: Populartajo

for commiting to a vote on me just because he doesn't like my vote on Puta. I mean really? I could vote quite a few people here for voting people I don't think deserve it (Charter for that HORRIBLE case on Wolfram, for instance). Sideways OMGUS? I'm thinking so. If we figure out Puta's alignment and it's scum, you're going to be pretty high on the list to follow up on.

Seriously, who votes in defense of someone else?

And Puta STILL hasn't come back. Lurking does NOT absolve scummy behavior in my book!

[Zilla]

On my large text, it's because people were blatantly ignoring me, and I'd had to say the same thing repeatedly, and they still didn't read my posts. I had to get attention.

I am getting very tired of answering for every tiny little thing. Watch, that gets blown up into a scummy looking sentence in itself. I can see the argument now. "You wouldn't be tired of proving stuff if you were town! Scum's the ones that find it hard to prove everything, town's got nothing to worry about!" God, if that were true, mafia'd be a very simple game, and I wouldn't have such a headache reading some of these arguments.

[Zilla]

1. What does diferentiate Puta from than the other lurkers?

The posts she has made, during RVS, and shortly after, and the extremely softcore participation posts afterward.

2. What besides of lurking has she done to gather her only vote?

The posts she has made, during RVS, and shortly after, and the extremely softcore participation posts afterward. And the way people irrationally defend her when there's no reason for it.

3. Do you think that if you lynch Puta and she comes up scum, the people that doesnt agree with you are inmediately scum?

Not neccessarily, but if an apple hits you in the head, are you under an apple tree or did someone throw it at you? if you look up, and there's no tree, chances are someone threw it at you.

4. What do you think of Hybris?

Probably the scummiest of the people I'm not hunting. I wouldn't be too dissatisfied with a Hybris lynch, but I'm not ready to call the game on him yet. The thing that bothers me the most is the parasitic nature of most of his posts that try to associate him with people, because if he's scum, he knows who's likely town, and being buddies with a townie looks good on the record.

Two more things come up:

KMD, what's the deal with the broken PR? No negative consequences?

Xtoxm, wtf? Charter's making a scum ploy by building a case on something rediculous, which REALLY bites if he's town because he's the perfect backlash if Wolf comes up scum. Even worse, if scum's throwing one of their own to the wolves to build great credibility.

Basically, that's extremely shaky reasoning that doesn't deserve the support it's getting.

[Zilla]

Zilla, that is not the reason of my vote.
The reason of my vote is

I am still happy with my Zilla vote because no one has explained yet why Puta deserves a vote with that security. (Zilla even admits that that she doesnt have much to go with) Yes, that bitch is lurking but so many players are and her behaviour doesnt scream that obvscum to me.

I am not defending her. She could well be scum but I DONT seen anything until now that tells me that.

What makes you think she's town enough to vote me because I'm voting her?

I am still happy with my Zilla vote

because no one has explained yet why Puta deserves a vote with that security.

(Zilla even admits that that she doesnt have much to go with) Yes, that bitch is lurking but so many players are and her behaviour doesnt scream that obvscum to me.

FoS: Populartajo

for commiting to a vote on me just

because he doesn't like my vote on Puta.

Tomayto, tomahto.

[Zilla]

EBWOP:

3. Do you think that if you lynch Puta and she comes up scum, the people that doesnt agree with you are inmediately scum?

Not neccessarily, but if an apple hits you in the head, are you under an apple tree or did someone throw it at you? if you look up, and there's no tree, chances are someone threw it at you.

To clarify, you should have said "the people who are defending Puta." not the people who don't agree with me. It seems there's a lot of people who don't agree with me (by the vote chart, EVERYONE ELSE), but they're obviously not all scum. I can't see a town person going to the extent of voting me for voting Puta at this point. It screams sideways OMGUS.

[Zilla]

a) Start post 120 by saying that the discussion at the time concerning KMD being Tom is counterproductive and distracting, then follow this sentence with a WIFOM statement that only begs for further speculation to be generated (in my opinion at least).

I was saying asking him if he had a post restriction, and focusing on that angle was a WIFOM and pointless.

Even so, the basic principle is still the same. You are advocating that town get off the subject, as focusing on it would only be distracting and lead to WIFOM arguments -- which you have just clarified yourself. I have already said that I agreed with you on this point, but the fact that you follow said statement in which you warn against WIFOM with a WIFOM statement of your own sent red flags flying high.

I already answered this.

b) You go on to say, despite your earlier statement of this whole discussion being a distraction, that "KMD could be self-aligned, at worst" and that this "entire branch of investigation is a red herring." There is a stark contradiction in the first paragraph and second paragraph, as you are first advocating that we move past the discussion of KMD's character and get to scumhunting, then add to the conversation by adding your own speculation to the mix. [/b]

I wanted to offer closing thoughts on it, hopefully taking the logic as far as it would go so we could drop it. I'm aware how it looks.

If you are aware of how it looks, then can I rightfully assume that you are acknowledging this suspicion/opinion is valid?

It's not valid in that it's not correct. I can see the case that could be made about it though. It's the case of the kid looking in the cookie jar to see if her sister had taken any, turns out some are missing and the parents saw her looking, so she's accused.

d)

If he's town though, this is stealing the stage and letting scum hide in the shadows...

This to me seems like someone trying to plant seeds of doubt into the group, alluding to the notion that KMD is trying to draw attention to himself so that scum can go undetected. I do not like this statement at all, for to me it looks like the beginnings of someone trying to condemn another player based off the fact that he has a PR.

lol wut? I'm not condemning a person based on their PR at all, I

was

doing the opposite, saying his PR cleared him of being FCC. Again, I no longer believe that. In fact, this whole block quote is weird in itself. You're saying he's intentionally drawing attention to himself to allow scum to hide? Why would he do that if he was town? Why would he do that if he was scum?

I am not saying you are condemning him. What I said was it looks like you are in the process of trying to formulate a case against him, using this statement to spread paranoia through the town. The wording of the quoted post above, at least to me, comes off as you saying:

"If he is town, then his current actions are anti-town, for he is allowing scum to slip by with all the commotion he is causing." I realize that this a matter of opinion, and others may not agree with me, but I felt it was noteworthy nonetheless. I get a "he may be pro-town, but this action makes me feel otherwise" sort of vibe from the post, and that was the point I was trying to make here.

That's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying that town focusing on his PR is detrimental, nothing at all to do with KMD.

@ Kloud, indeed, I got sucked into it as well, but I was trying to move on past the post-restriction arguement and

instead argue what his soft-claim meant.

If it's true that character has nothing at all to do with alignment, then we have no information, and can essentially sum up that we know nothing about KMD's alignment.

If character does have something to do with it, then my arguments can be applied.

What soft-claim are you referencing? Him having a PR? You were not arguing anything, you were making WIFOM arguments then toss around the idea that

he

could

be self-aligned

without any reasoning that would support the claim.

I'm referring to the PR, which may be self-imposed, which makes it analogous to soft-claiming Tom Tucker. Afterward, I'm talking about how if character and alignment mean anything, Tom Tucker probably isn't FCC, which doesn't instantly clear him, because he could still be self-aligned. IN NO WAY AM I ARGUING THAT HE

IS

SELF ALIGNED. I HAVE

NEVER

EVER

SAID HE

IS

SELF ALIGNED. I just wanted to say that, even if he wasn't FCC, that doesn't make him pro-town. THAT'S ALL.

If you look at the response above for just a moment before flying off the handle, you will see that you were tossing around the idea that he

could

be self-aligned. You did:

At worst, a Tom Tucker could be self-aligned. I think this entire branch of investigation is a red-herring.

and so the statement you are addressing above is completely valid. I never said that that you claimed he

was

self-aligned, but you brought up the idea. Your all-caps snap back is unnecessary, for if you would have actually read the context of the post, (particularly the part I have bolded, put in green, and underlined) you would see this.

I did read the post, and I missed the part where you said there can't be any self-aligned people in Quahog. How the hell can you discount that possibility? I have nothing to answer for here. I'm sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you had an actual argument here instead of horribly weird illogic.

More fully: I'm saying that he could possibly be self-aligned just as much as anyone could be self-aligned. The only thing you could contest with me on this is by saying he absolutely ISN'T self-aligned, a position that could only be taken by masons and scum on day 1.

As said already, just because you say you did not mean (or annul) everything you said earlier does not clear your slate. The statements were scummy, and that is not going to change. It is one thing to be misinformed. It is one thing to draw conclusions as well. It is another case entirely when you begin to drawn conclusions based off no information at all, as you were only encouraging further speculation that would have kept the town from scumhunting.

Thank you for letting me know being wrong about something is fatal.

Thank you for using another Appeal to Emotion. As I said in the quoted text above that you are responding to: it isn't the fact that you were wrong that is suspicious, but the notion that you are insisting we simply erase all content that made you look suspicious that makes you look scummy.

I already addressed this. Do I need to bring out the large font yet again?

Charter's arguement

Xtoxm, wtf? Charter's making a scum ploy by building a case on something rediculous, which REALLY bites if he's town because he's the perfect backlash if Wolf comes up scum. Even worse, if scum's throwing one of their own to the wolves to build great credibility.

Basically, that's extremely shaky reasoning that doesn't deserve the support it's getting.

Show how what I have done is a "scum ploy". Show how my case is "ridiculous". Don't make accusations you cannot back up.

If you're scum and he's not, you're framing a townie on stupid logic. Your case is rediculous because it's centered on one clause in one sentence as some kind of Freudian slip, as if you know how wolfram thinks and how he communicates. It's entirely baseless and rediculous. I shouldn't have to say this. Furthermore, even met with criticism, you only attempt to strengthen your weak position. You're trying to build a castle on swampy ground. At the very least, it's better than the ones that have been built in the air.

And two more votes besides mine? Are you kidding me? That's no support at all. Your overdefensiveness on wolf's behalf is noted.

A nice number there, do you have the whole scum gang pushing for it?

furthermore, I don't claim wolfram is innocent, but he hasn't done anything as remotely scummy as you trumpeting him as being "for sure" scum because he said "especially if you are town." Building a weak case on someone is stupid, harmful to town, and shouldn't be done by anyone. Especially if you are town.

[Zilla]

Posting from a phone. Woot.

furthermore, I don't claim

wolfram

Puta is innocent, but he hasn't done anything as remotely scummy

as you trumpeting him as being "for sure" scum because he said "especially if you are town."

In fact, you are the only one pushing for her right now.

Building a weak case on someone is stupid, harmful to town, and shouldn't be done by anyone. Especially if you are town.

This is exactly how I feel about you, Zilla.
Will come back with more after my LA.

The thought crossed my mind, but there's key differences; I'm not blowing an argument out of proportion to exaggerate my case (I know exactly what its strength is, but I'm still convinced it's valid), and the statement "He hasn't done anything as remotely scummy" does not apply to Puta. IIRC, even you admitted Puta's few posts were scummy. That could have been someone else though.

I'm also not trumpeting about that Puta is confirmed scum and deserves to be our day 1 lynch.

Show how what I have done is a "scum ploy". Show how my case is "ridiculous". Don't make accusations you cannot back up.

If

you're scum and he's not, you're framing a townie on stupid logic.

IF?!?!? What IF I'm town and wolf is scum, I've caught scum. Looks to me like it's town logic from how you determine things.

IF?!?! IF you're town and right about wolf, you're damn lucky. I don't believe I need to extend my point that this is extremely far-fetched? I'm not alone on this either.

Your case is rediculous because it's centered on one clause in one sentence as some kind of Freudian slip, as if you know how wolfram thinks and how he communicates.

Freudian slips are a perfectly valid way of catching scum. Are you insinuating that they ARE NOT allowed to be used to catch scum?

If they're valid and true Freudian slips, that's fine, and I've used real ones before, but this is not a Freudian slip. You misunderstand the tone he's conveying with the clause, and that misunderstanding is not basis for a case.

It's entirely baseless and rediculous. I shouldn't have to say this. Furthermore, even met with criticism, you only attempt to strengthen your weak position. You're trying to build a castle on swampy ground. At the very least, it's better than the ones that have been built in the air.

In the last part of your quote, you even said how it has base, it's a Freudian slip. Of course when met with criticism I'm going to attempt to strengthen my position. What else would I do, just back down and hide in the shadows?

It would have a base if it was a Freudian slip. I'm showing what you're trying to do/pass it off as, but that's not the case. When met with criticism, especially if you're town, you would reconsider your case to make sure you were right, so we don't lynch a townie. The only way you can be convinced of Wolf's alignment is if you are scum, and he's not in your mafia.

A nice number there, do you have the whole scum gang pushing for it?

So you're acknowledging that you are being overdefensive for wolf by not refuting my claim? You're also acknowledging that you somehow know there are three scum?[/quote]
So you're putting words in my mouth and attempting to equate having logic with being scumbuddies with wolfram? You're also trying to say my rhetorical question implies I know anything about the amount of scum?

More on this, I only meant to imply that it's entirely possible for the wolfram voters to be a scum team pushing for his lynch, albeit that would be entirely suicidal, and I don't believe that's the case. The point needs to be addressed though, because it's a WIFOM situation, scum may be counting on us thinking such a move would be too stupid. In no way do I ever assert that there are three and exactly three scum members, nor am I implying anything of the sort.

Especially if you are town.

Obviously this isn't a "use this phrase and you're scum." Obviously how wolf did it is distinctly different.
You did not show that my accusation is a "scum ploy" or "ridculous".

That's what you'd like to think, and would like to make true. Even your refutations of my claims are shoddy, yet you want to pretend they're infallible.

I would advise dropping this now before you start inventing arguements to try and defend someone you (should not) have any knowledge of alignment.

I would advise dropping this line of reasoning now before you attract the votes of the people who understand the situation better than you do. If you can find better evidence for Wolfram to be scum, by all means, put it forward, and it may actually be damning enough to vote him, but so far your track record has been pretty lousy and I see no reason to believe another half-brained theory.

[Zilla]

I am not discounting it, as it is always a possibility. You are correct, there is not enough information to either state something as fact or rule anything out at this point, but this is exactly what caught my eye. What I found to stand out was, out of all the possibilities, you decide to toss out the idea that he may be self-aligned. Why self-aligned of all possible role categories? I felt that this could have been a minor slip, but when you elaborate on your stance I can see that my initial impression may not be what I made it out to be.

My entire point is that though he may not be FCC, he may still not be town-aligned. I don't think any other alignment demonstrates that as well as Self-Aligned. And really, what else is there? Cult? Isn't that under the umbrella of Self-Aligned? I could be ignorant of some other alignment that is anti-town, but I still make my point.

The problem lies in somehow misconstruing that to say that I'm saying KMD is Tom is Self-Aligned, which I am not. All my points about Tom's alignment worked in "Crazy Character Equals Alignment Land (which is where I come from, apparently)." The mention of being self-aligned was simply there to caution people that just because Tom wasn't likely FCC didn't mean he was clear and free either. Now please tell me I don't have to spend the next 5 pages explaining again how I know that character has nothing to do with alignment.

[Zilla]

Concise version:

... you were making WIFOM arguments then toss around the idea that

he

could

be self-aligned

without any reasoning that would support the claim. ...

What reasoning do I need?

No really.

Honestly.

Do I need to put forward that it's possible for anyone to be any alignment?

[Zilla]

The thought crossed my mind, but there's key differences;

I'm not blowing an argument out of proportion to exaggerate my case

(I know exactly what its strength is, but I'm still convinced it's valid), and the statement "He hasn't done anything as remotely scummy" does not apply to Puta.

Charter, I still think you case on Wolf is crap.

Fair enough, like I said, it's tough to see, but it is there.

Not going to keep responding to the slew of terrible logic coming from Zilla anymore.

Like I said, you either see it or you don't.

I don't play mafia by consulting my book of scumtells and just voting for whoever commits the most of them, prolly why I can never convince anyone of my cases.

Townies commit 'scumtells' too you know.

Way to step down.

It's not a case of "you see it or you don't." It's obvious what you see. I can guarantee everyone here knows what you're talking about. That doesn't change that it's a crap vote for a crap reason.

Your last sentence COMPLETELY confuses me, because your entire case is based around one scumtell that could have been committed by town. You've just negated your whole premise, which has been that Wolfram must be scum because he made a Freudian slip (a very interpretive analysis as well).

[Zilla]

On Hybris:

KMD, I'd say you're losing ground here, but you're forgetting some of the points that haven't been answered yet. Hybris has a point about the lurking thing, which is why I'm still on Puta's case, among other reasons (the odd no-basis defenses of her are suspicious). There's worse lurkers who have simply appeared to contribute (Tony Montana?).

I wouldn't say RestFermata counts in this, all of her posts were full of content IIRC.

One case that Hybris hasn't been able to refute was not contributing because it might attract attention? What is that?

Either way, I'm still on the fence about Hybris. There is a case there, but I'm sore over Puta not answering for anything and Charter being rediculous too much to vote hybris. That's third on my priority list right now.

[Zilla]

You don't understand that townies commit so called scumtells? Really?
Why would a townie ever be mislynched then! Hey guys, this guy looks really town, let's lynch him!

I don't believe that townies ever think (or in wolf's case know) someone is town, and then vote them like wolf did.

TM's vote actually gave me a good laugh.

Just stop talking before you completely destroy your case.

Oh wait, too late.

to KMD:

I meant that the "Hybris was lurking" isn't going anywhere. We all know s/he's not lurking now. I'm saying that his/her somewhat lurky nature from before doesn't amount to much unless you push on the content of those posts. I don't see scumhunting at the moment but I also don't expect it because if Hybris did anything right now, just about anyone would call it "deflecting attention."

Hybris, you brought it up yourself, for the reason you reiterated in your last post. Not contributing to the discussion is scummy because you come across as having something to hide, which shouldn't be the case if you're town. It doesn't matter if you have anything useful to say, letting town know where you stand on the issue helps them classify you as either town or scum, and so withholding that information, we can only assume the worst.

I can guarantee if charter stopped scumming so hard and Puta assuaged my suspicions, I'd be on this train.

And further because charter still doesn't get the point, and right now he's actually arguing against himself and thinking somehow he's arguing against me...

Actually, I'm content to let him do that.

[Zilla]

Zilla, again, I KNOW THAT HYBRIS ISN'T LURKING ANYMORE.

KMD, again, I KNOW YOU KNOW THAT HYBRIS ISN'T LURKING ANYMORE. That's not at all what I said. I explained AGAIN in my last post that Hybris' lurking status is a non-issue. Please reread that more carefully.

Puta, nice to see you're back and sticking it to the man for voting on a one-liner of logic! That'll show them to actually provide sound reasoning for their votes and not just tossing in a vote that looks pro-town for the sake of looking town!

Oh wait...

[Zilla]

I think you're still missing the point, that it wasn't the lurking that was the problem ever. To begin with. Before now.

It's quite frustrating needing to bring something up 3 times to get attention. Maybe I should rephrase everything three times just to get the point across. It's possible being redundant could clarify my posts a little better. Saying the same thing repetitively may aid others in understanding what I'm trying to say.

I'm saying you're not going to get anywhere through the lurking argument, because even before now, Hybris wasn't truly lurking. The point to address is the intent and content of Hybris's posts. The point of Hybris lurking is a dead-end, it's not inherently scummy enough to hold weight, and it wasn't demonstrated strongly enough in the thread to hold weight. It's better to focus on what was said than how much.

Have I made it clear yet? Do you understand now? Is further elaboration required?

(Sorry for condescending, but it's really rediculous how much of my posts are ignored. I apologize for the belittling tone, however, it's quite ludicrous how many times I've had to restate the same thing in multiple posts. I express my deepest regrets over belitting the intelligence of those who are reading, alas, my previous posts have required much the same further elaboration before they are understood).

[Zilla]

Wow, that seems like a really long day to me... Man, I have to code an entire video game by then!

[Zilla]

Like I said, done trying to convince anyone.

Go ahead and lynch hybris, he won't be scum.

And yes, I am going to use the "I told ya so" tomorrow in this scenario.

Also none of your post there has anything to do with what wolf said and how it makes him scum.

Are you SERIOUS?

[/b]Unvcote: Puta puta
Vote: Charter[/b]

I don't even nead to explain myself because you've done a splendid job laying out my logic for me. If you want to know why I'm voting Charter, read Charter's posts for the last three pages.

KMD, you forgot me, who has done a heck of a lot more than Llama in deconstructing Charter's stupidity.

[Zilla]

.. *tag troubles*

Unvote: Puta Puta
Vote: Charter

[Zilla]

Because you KNOW that Hybris is town, yes, we know. Someone whom you admit to suspecting until, heh, Wolf made it SO apparent that Hybris MUST be town and that he's voting for him because he must be scum trying to get a quick lynch in on town. You think you're being clever, but you're being incredibly dense. What you see is not hidden at all, and you're misinterpreting/skewing it. I have two explanations running through my mind, neither of which are good. One, you're playing like an idiot because you're a jester, or two, you're scum that knows it would seem scummy to back down in the face of logic so you're hoping we play it off as an misguided townie. It's still enitrely possible you're self-aligned/third party and Wolf actually is FCC, but I don't see you being town with THIS bad of logic. Unless, can other players verify that he plays like this?

[Zilla]

I don't think you're town, especially with your quick little one-shot posts with no commitment to them, and actually adhereing to charter's illogic.

I'm open to the possibility that scum's trying to get motion behind the wolfram-vote, but the only reason they would do that is if they didn't like the current wagon. Yet Hybris is also saying the Wolfram train is stupid. Just how deep does this conspiracy go?

I'm fine with Charter, Puta, Hybris, or Xtoxm being lynched at the moment. I personally think Charter deserves it the most.

[Zilla]

^ Valid points, you've demoted Puta on my list.

I think we've got something going on with the circus we're in at the moment though. Llama, I'd like to hear why Charter/Hybris/Wolfram are less worthy of lynching than The Internet.

[Zilla]

I was thinking charter was town until he pulled the stint of blatant hypocrisy that I quoted. That's a stupid thing to do, especially if you are town.

[Zilla]

KMD, do you see what I mean about people not listening? You've said the same thing twice and almost the same thing three times about your post restriction.

I do enjoy how BlakAdder just did what Hybris did for me and caused both me and Hybris to come under fire .

Charter's gone lurking again. This development is most unwelcome!

[Zilla]

Okay, missed this page, sorry.

No matter how you slice it, Puta's been unhelpful, and still hasn't answered my accusatiosn against him (I KNEW IT! I knew it was a guy, but I thought perhaps others knew better...). He hasn't made me feel bad for being on his case this whole time.

However, what, does this totally invalidate Charter's stupid and harmful logic? We actually have something there, this is weak stuff that's happening right now.

I was recently reminded how scum will try to frame townies to control town, usually by trying to make a convincing argument on a town mistake so that the lynch looks like a valid reason. Perhaps I'm giving Charter too much credit, but I think he is aware of this also, so he's trying not to make a real case, instead by making a really bad one and hoping that we'll all think he's not scum because scum wouldn't want to garner that much attention. Any way I look at it though, I don't think Charter was serious about his vote. This makes Elvis and Xtoxm look like bloodthirsty scum trying to push a lame wagon by association, but again, I want to credit them with more intelligence than that. That makes me think it's possible they're trying to look town by being blatantly scummy to the point of "No smart scum would ever do that."

On the other side of the fence, I'm a little skeptical about KMD as well, because of this post.

Ok, so anyone who thinks that everyone who doesn't see Charter's case, the scum are apparently me, Hybris, Llama, and Zilla. Anyone else?

It's trying to make us all appear tied together, which either implicates town or clears scum by association. There's no reason to say that everyone defending Wolfram is related, and it means that either scum can benefit from being associated with town, or town can be hurt by being associated with scum. On another level though, it is trying to prove the point that it's rediculous to think we're all scum for defending Wolfram. This however doesn't mean we're all town.

[Zilla]

Romanus wrote:
I don't know if Charter is scum for doing that. It gets very WIFOM very quickly.

I could so see myself doing something like that as a townie just to get things rolling.

So, I will go with null-tell just simply bad play.


Not so much going off of what Thesp's pointed out as I am his actual saying he's not a townie.

unvote
vote romanus

This. This sets that apart quite a bit from this game.

I think you fail to see why he said "especially if you are town" in his post, and why this isn't a case like the others. He was making the case that no townie would/should ever act like that, which increases his likelihood of being scum, hence the vote. 638 had that quote of "I can see myself doing something like this as town," which I can see why he said that, but was also very telling that he wasn't town.

[Zilla]

Hybris, to answer a question directed to another player is never a good thing, especially if you are town. By answering a question for someone, even if it is just quoting what they said, you are effectively stopping another players scum hunting and depriving the rest of the players whatever answer the questioned player would have responded with, so in other words you can either effectively save a scum player that was questioned, or make a town player that was questioned become scrutinized because you are defending them without cause or being asked to.

That whole portion is wolf giving advice to Hybris about how she can look less scummy. Nowhere does it say or imply that she has scummy motivations for her actions. In fact it sounds to me like he assumes she is town.

I'm still seeing it the same way. Answering for another player isn't good. I agree with that. Answering for another player

IF

you are town, just as bad. If you want to argue that Wolf is seeing more bad play than scummy actions, that's fine. If you are going to try to tell me that Wolf claimed to KNOW that Hybris is town, and then voted Hybris, I'll tell you it's craplogic.

I think that wolf is saying there that Hybris's actions are more townie bad play than scummy. Which implies that he thinks she's town.

Right here is where you misunderstand. Wolfram's saying "This is a stupid move, even for town. This is how it's bad for town. This is why scum would do this move. You're not town, this hurts town, I'm voting you."

But even if I concede the "tell" to you, and agree that wolf could have made that mistake as town, it doesn't explain why wolf made that whole paragraph trying to help hybris play better as a townie, and then voted her for being scum.

I figure I may as well wrap it up by directly addressing this, even though it's already answered above; Wolfram does not think Hybris is town. The "paragraph of advice" wasn't advice to a town player, it was showing why it fits a scum archetype more than a town one. It's not one I really agree with, since the very action that was being admonished (answering for another player) was just done by BlakAdder in the last 3 pages.

Though reading again, I can see a lot of small things that are worrisome. The sentence is constructed in a very hypothetical way instead of a concrete accusative one, which I can see as coming from a scum standpoint to try to put hypothetical weight behind his case. To be specific:

so in other words you

can

either effectively save a scum player that was questioned, or make a town player that was questioned become scrutinized because you are defending them without cause or being asked to.

Every other part of the post says "you are" while this is a "you can," which makes more sense coming from a scum player trying to frame someone by showing how it "can" be interpreted. This, I can understand.

Unvote: Charter

Vote: The Internet

I'm unvoting Charter because, even though he argued horribly and his exact argument has no basis, I'm now more suspicious of wolfram than before. Focusing on "especially if you are town" was wrong, and that alone is totally not convincing. The "you can be scum, so I'm voting you" on the other hand is more convincing.

Actually, come to think of it.

unvote: The Internet
Vote: Wolframnhart

Scum players will vote town precisely when they CAN be scum so they can scapegoat, and with the massive buildup on Hybris, this post makes sense coming from scum wanting an easy-in on a bandwagon.

[Zilla]

I voted the Internet as a fallback, kind of like Magic when the top thing resolves in the stack so you move on to the next thing. I was going to build a case on him and switch gears, but I decided instead to complete my turnaround and actually vote for Wolfram.

I left it in there because it wasn't detrimental or contradictory, but I didn't feel like elaborating on The Internet because I had already accused him of not contributing and I'm finding Puta's just being an attention whore for now. The Internet then goes on to post his read on people, which I found very helpful, so he's not on my list anymore, but prior to that, he was my number 2, so I was falling back on him. I also kept it in because it's extra information about where I stand on things, which can't be bad to include.

[Zilla]

I've played mafia a lot offsite. I don't suspect TI because his main issue was a lack of contribution and the impossibility to get a read on him, but now that you mention it, he did contradict himself on me and didn't offer any examples of WHY he thought what he did, but it was definitely a step up. Despite your lack of real content, you raise an interesting contradiction there. He's back on my list.

[Zilla]

Hybris had two votes when I voted for him, and every other vote I've made aside from Wolfram and myself has been for people with less votes. You can't say I've been bandwagoning. I've been turning over barrels trying to find scum where town's not looking. For instance, after delving back into the thread, I'm pretty suspicious of Elvis again...

Xtoxm, you worry me a lot, because you don't seem to have a real reason for voting Wolf other than Charter's case, and admittedly, that's a really bad case.

FoS: Xtoxm

There's people who are being very obviously scummy and people being very subtly scummy. It's hard to guage which of them are truly scum, which are town being bad town, and which are town with minor scum slips. I'm personally more wary of those with the few scum slips than the blatant scum people, but that's another WIFOM case for you, a classic textbook one in fact. Are they bad scum, bad town, smart scum trying to mimic vad town, or smart town playing badly to appear non-threatening on day 1?

[Zilla]

Because clearly it is entirely the fault of the lynchee for getting

mis

lynched, never your fault for voting him.

What are you trying to say here? I know it's sarcasm, but you're basically saying...

Unvote: Wolfram
Vote: Xtoxm

You're saying you know or expect Wolf to be town (mislynched), and trying to cast blame on his voter preemptively? And trying to set it up so you look good when that happens? DESPITE VOTING FOR HIM YOURSELF?

Hey charter, here's an example of the exact thing you're campaigning, and a much more concrete one.

[Zilla]

RestFermata is also lurking, but when she does post, it's usually helpful and insightful (aside from her latest "I promise to post more" post).

Xtoxm, Wolfram's the subtly scummy type, Charter, Elvis, and you are the blatantly scummy type.

[Zilla]

Puta as well, but he asked how it was relevant to Wolfram, so I only said how it related to Wolfram.

You agree with him in "the last paragraph"? He hasn't posted a single paragraph this game, IIRC, and what's there to agree on? That you don't see the connection to Wolfram? Exaggerating with what???

[Zilla]

Puta as well, but he asked how it was relevant to Wolfram, so I only said how it related to Wolfram.

You agree with him in "the last paragraph"? He hasn't posted a single paragraph this game, IIRC, and what's there to agree on? That you don't see the connection to Wolfram? Exaggerating with what???

[Zilla]

Because clearly it is entirely the fault of the lynchee(wolframnhart) for getting lynched, never your(Zilla's, anyone else voting Wolframnhart) fault for voting him.

That's how I read it, further clarified by

I was referring to this:

Quote:
Are they bad scum, bad town, smart scum trying to mimic vad town, or smart town playing badly to appear non-threatening on day 1?


What the fuck does that have to do with Wolf? It was a general statement..

Showing he didn't understand how my analysis applied to Wolfram.

[Zilla]

Zilla, why are you doing something similar to what you just went against charter for doing?

Because Charter was being extremely dense and not understanding what he was talking about, thinking something was a "scum tell" when it was just something anyone would say. Meanwhile, here's a real slip, unless I'm missing something too.

[Zilla]

Charter, your case is not "hidden," I see exactly what your case is, and it's crap, and you need to realize that your case is not hidden, it's obvious, both KMD and I have explained to you what your case is, you've confirmed that's what your case is, you've explained what your case is, and it's still crap.

Any townie can be mislynched? Why does Xtoxm have to be talking about Wolf? Don't get me wrong, I'm still suspicious of Xtxom, but I don't think this was any kind of slip. It's very similar to Charter's case on Wolf.

You're confusing me here, I'm confused by your first statement.

I'm kind of seeing how I may misconstrue Xtoxm's post, but it doesn't make any sense... I don't know what he's trying to say if he's not accusing the people voting wolframn of mislynching. Furhtermore, his second post is just as ambiguous.

Again.

Because clearly it is entirely the fault of the lynchee for getting mislynched, never your fault for voting him.

What the hell is this supposed to mean if it's not about Wolfram? It's sarcastic, I can tell that much, but to what end? The only meaning I can draw from it is sarcastically mocking me, saying that I'm saying it's entirely Wolframn's fault for getting lynched, and not the people voting him. If it's a generality, I don't see the point of even saying it, because I don't say anything about it being anyone's fault for being lynched.

The second, also ambiguous post:

Er, what?

I was referring to this:

Are they bad scum, bad town, smart scum trying to mimic vad town, or smart town playing badly to appear non-threatening on day 1?

What the fuck does that have to do with Wolf? It was a general statement.

The part after quoting me can either be asking what the fuck the quote has to do with Wolf, or can be asking what the fuck my accusations have to do with Wolf because he wasn't intending to say that in his first (ambiguous) post. But that first post's meaning is extremely unclear if it's not about me saying it's Wolfram's fault for being lynched, which I'm not.

The irony of the nature of this misunderstanding doesn't escape me.

Elvis: I've laid out why I suspect you long ago, you've generally been behind Charter every step of the way, even before his poor logic on Wolframn, you've been building poor cases, and you've been skewing information. You also apparently deleted that post... ?

I dislike charter's case on Wolf, but I've got a better one that actually makes sense and is grounded in reality, and hasn't been refuted AT ALL. The self-vote thing has been answered; do I need to break out the size tags again? It was because I thought we were closer to lynch than that, and I wanted to condemn the people pushing me by flipping town. The "temper tantrum" (constructed language for skewed emotional response) was because of the horrible reasoning being used against me, and again, thinking we were closer to lynch than we were.

as for being on my case, it's partially not coincidence since I've seen your poor logic at work and had to debate it already, with exception to Xtoxm, who I don't remember being on my case, and if he was, he didn't have valid rasons, all the more reason to vote him. See the "No such thing as OMGUS" thread for insight into why I'd be critical of you guys.

Xtoxm's case isn't just on this supposed slip, however, it's also due to his lack of common sense, bandwagonny nature, lack of personal insight, lack of contribution, and general "willing to lynch any patsy for any lame reason" approach.

Charter, maybe one day you will understand what Wolf was talking about, today is not that day. I wish you'd use your brain and understand the construction of Wolfram's post. That's not a slip, and not even related to having information about who is town.

[Zilla]

How does my response nullify Charter?

[Zilla]

A note on the wolf wagon:
His word choice is a null tell. It is absolutely retarded to base an entire wagon on it. It in no way presumes he is town, it merely casts doubt upon. The wagon is a stupid one, and I advise it be stopped.

I used to think so, and I think charter's construction is flawed, but after rereading, there's a few cues in there that Charter didn't find. The "Especially if you are town" thing is totally erroneous. The construction of "this is why you CAN be scum" sounds like scum finding a patsy to pin the vote on. It's like if we were to ask him about it afterward, he would say "Hey, I didn't say he WAS scum, I said he CAN BE scum." It also seems like he wasn't really convinced he was scum, just in the possibility, but he joined a rolling bandwagon anyway.

[Zilla]

On Elvis adding to the fray: Weak logic, looks like you wanted to vote me and were looking for any excuse to do so, and actually that was a side-perk to my plan. I hate to spring the trap this early but I do have renewed faith in town. Elvis, your bloodthirst has been noted.

I'm not voting you because Hybris comes off scummier than you, but you're doing your best to take that spot. If Hybris is clean and you aren't, this could be a post meant to implicate both KMD and me when he comes up town. This strategy seems like a really longshot, I'm still thinking you're a misguided townie at this point.

Any way I look at it though, I don't think Charter was serious about his vote. This makes Elvis and Xtoxm look like bloodthirsty scum trying to push a lame wagon by association, but again, I want to credit them with more intelligence than that. That makes me think it's possible they're trying to look town by being blatantly scummy to the point of "No smart scum would ever do that."

Summary of my prevoius cases on Elvis.

He's been using bad logic mostly, and I get a general anti-town vibe from him, especially with his latest posts that are of the type "You haven't brought up a case on me, look away, shoo shoo, there's no case on me."

[Zilla]

On Xtoxm, I'm still fine for voting him, though I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on his "slip." He's still dismissive, doesn't contribute, is vague with his stances, and hasn't put himself forward on any issues, instead latching onto a bad logic wagon. I wanted to fight on that point longer to show charter how dumb his own case was, but I don't think that's going to happen...

[Zilla]

Xtoxm and charter; extremely weird, and interesting how charter's reads are almost polar opposite of mine. I find elvis, Xtoxm, and charter to be quite suspicious. I'm a little urked the Wolfram hasn't even come back to defend his position at all, that most of it was done by me and KMD.

I'm more inclined to vote Xtoxm off for being generally unhelpful, because there's the off chance that Charter's pulling a Fighter from 8 bit theater and is so wrong that he's right. I still find his argument ludicrous and absurd, but that doesn't mean wolfram isn't scum just because one argument comes out of nowhere. It's increasingly hard to believe charter is this dense though.

[Zilla]

@Xtoxm: Are you going to answer the question that I and three other people asked you?

Put the count up to five.

I'm almost wondering if he has some kind of handicapping post restriction?

[Zilla]

Hmmmmm... quite interesting, this development. I'm afraid Tony's being set up, because he's easy to set up, but that also makes him really hard to defend if he is scum and other scum want to save him... I'm about ready to bite, but a little reserved that this is a scum plot, and that can still be supported either way. If he's scum, they could be throwing him away for credibility. If he's town, they're trying to lead a safe lynch on a patsy, which they can use later against people on the wagon that aren't scum, but can look like scum.

On Llama, I get that faint scum nagging feeling. There's this undertone of control in some posts, but that's faded recently, but that's also all the more worrying. I don't put it past him to be scum.

RestFermata, about my vote-unvote-vote post, that's a WIFOM arguement that is impossible to really refute, because it can always be followed with "that's what you want us to think." I'm just telling you the truth, I can't do much more than that. I'm aware that voting/unvoting in the same post has been considered scummy, but I don't see the reason why. I'd say it's about as neutral as assuming yourself to be town when constructing an arguement. It could be there because you ARE town, or because that's what you want town to think.

This massive build on Tony is still troubling me though. I don't want to be a part of this lynch, it looks too shotgunned.

[Zilla]

Furthermore, I'm going to say that Hybris appears linked to Tony. If Tony flips scum, I'd be onto Hybris next because he's softly defending Tony.

[Zilla]

Unvote: Xtoxm
Vote: Charter

So many things wrong with that post.

Hybris is scum.

No, as has been explained earlier, Wolf is, and hybris is not. Fos.

No, as hasn't been proven earlier, Wolf could be either way and Hyrbis could be either way.

Massive FOS

I'm almost wondering if he has some kind of handicapping post restriction?

Fos.

Random accusation devoid of logic?

FOS

Ok, so RF's post makes more sense now that I know there was a quote tag mess up.

I don't really see the case on TM, but then again I guess that is the point. He hasn't posted at all [exageration] and when he does post its usually something quiet scummy. So, that is the case I believe. and I can support a lynch on someone with a case like that (since he hasnt posted at all)

unvote, vote: TonyMontana

Fos.

How nice of you to borrow someone else's logic and not provide any of your own.

FOS

Fos Zilla for 609 and 700.

What about them? 609 isn't even my post, it's The Internet's. My post 608 is very big, and you don't answer any of the points I bring up, isntead dismissing them with "FOS".

FOS: Charter

Also, nobody actually DID explain what he was trying to say with that post,

Because clearly it is entirely the fault of the lynchee for getting mislynched, never your fault for voting him.

Honestly, someone tell me what the message of this post is supposed to say, and how it's not hypocritical about his vote on Wolfram, and how I'm wrong for construing it as a way to implicate people voting for Wolfram in advance, assuming he flips town, so that the blame rests on some of the voters?

It seems a few people don't agree that Hybris was trying to defend Tony without actually defending him, which bugs me. Check his posts, he tries to ignore the Tony case and not offer a solid position on it, instead going "Hey, this OTHER guy looks suspicious, right? I'm not going to say why he's a better candidate than Tony, instead I'm going to ignore the case altogether and hope it goes away.

Furthermore, it was Tony who refuted that. If he IS scum, this is a distancing ploy, or a level 2 WIFOM to try to implicate Hybris, but I'm going with distancing ploy in this case.

702, that was most definately not an intentional slip.

I agree with this, no matter what, it wasn't an "intentional slip."

707, no, townheavy wagons balloon like that, not scumheavy ones. It's cause he actually did something suspicious and now he's paying for it.

What the hell kind of logic is this? Have you PLAYED mafia before? Mafia-formed wagons are much more likely to balloon because then mafia team up with mislead town to lynch a townie. Town driven wagons are far more likely to involve resistance by scumbuddies trying to defend each other, like you and Xtoxm (See: Charter is the most pro-town player).

Still wanting wolf...

If you have a different, actually valid reason, please state it.

My order of lynch preference:
Charter
Xtoxm
Tony (mainly because he'd give us quite a lot of information no matter what his alignment is)
Elvis (cooling off quite a bit lately, but initial suspicions still stand, and it's possible she's changing her playstyle instead of answering my accusations as an attempt to blend).

[Zilla]

So Zilla, you don't even care about why I Fos'ed people? Just decided that no matter the reason it makes me scum? That hardly makes any sense, and that's odd since you've proclaimed yourself Master of Knowledge.

You didn't provide any reason, you STILL haven't provided any reason, and you expect me to consider that to be townie?

Your flippancy, misdirection, horrible logic, horrible contribution, non commital stance on anything but your idiot theory on Wolf is more than enough to label you scum.

Please tell me where I claim to be Master of Knoweldge, my masterful knowledge doesn't seem to recall ever doing so.

On Tony, if he's scum, it implicates a few people who are looking at misdirecting rather than talking about it (Hybris, Charter, others), as well as those who are voting for shallow reasons as they may be scum trying to blend via sacrifice. If he's town, it'll say something about the wagon starters, because he really is easy to pin guilt on, and easy to come away from his lynch without a stained record, as town's going to contribute to the lynch in the first place. I don't want to say more unless/until he's lynched.

[Zilla]

...I think people who are going to just be an anchor while action scummy should be the lynch. ...

Charter fits this, and I feel we will get additional information from his alignment.

This includes the pool of people like TM, TI and CC. One of these should be the lynch today, 100%.

I don't like this. This is the control I was talking about, and it's not a good kind of control. This makes me feel a scum vibe, especially since I don't get a strong feeling from any of those three aside from being non contributing, and it also ignores others that have just as much (or even more) case on them, like Xtoxm, Puta, Pacman, kloud, lately BlakAdder, and, honestly, Wolf's infrequent snippets.

I'm again getting the bad vibes from Llama, the "acting town" feeling.

[Zilla]

Coming off as controlling is scummy simply because it's the best position to be in when you are scum. If you're calling the shots, town's going to lynch itself stupid while you slide by. Town doesn't win through control, scum wins through control, town wins from awareness and inquisition. Most of your posts seem engineered with a "Can't touch this" natuire, wherein your accusations are never bold and brash but small and measured, thus nobody can effectively build a case against you, again, very town-proof. Lacking a vig, being in that position makes you untouchable, and we have no reason to believe that you are in fact untouchable. I think we've seen arguements on just about every player aside from you.

In the end though I would rather just kill off someone who isnt and wont be helping today over someone who is around the same scummy level, but at least will be useful later in the game. We will get more information from the lynch today, as well as whatever kills we have at night. Once we have alignments I think the players in your second list deserve more of a readthrough.

I have to say this can be taken as a push to "stick with the patsies we have now and leave my scumbuddies alone." The thing that bothers me is that it seems to encourage unthinking rather than analysis; "Oh come on, let's get complacent with what we've got instead of looking at anyone else. They're not being very pro-town, so lynching them is okay, right?" I don't see what determines your distinction of who "isn't and won't be helping today" compared to "around the same scummy level but will be useful later." What? I'd rather lynch scum aligned than town aligned any day, regardless of how much contribution they give.

I dont see how you have Pacman and Kloud at scum at all really. The rest I can see where suspicions come from but those two just confuse me more then anything else.

Both have gone missing, and Pacman hasn't really contributed much. Kloud did in the outset, then drifted off into obscurity. His was a name I didn't even recognize right away from looking at the player list.

I still think the wagon shot up really quickly on TM. I still think Charter's analysis that says that town wagons are the ones that move fast is an UBER SCUM TELL. I still think Charter's shoddy defenses, aggressive nature, and poor logic are uber scum tells.

[Zilla]

^ all those concerns outline the danger, and from what I can tell, his scum meta supports that.

I can count the number of times I've been lynched on one hand, compared to approximately 40+ games I've been in, and that's because I do play pro-town no matter what alignment I am. My scum win ratio is very high. In fact, there was only ONE case where I wasn't lynched from a PO claim (there was also one case where I was lynched a broken PO claim, and one where I actually refuted a PO claim long enough to live another night, and the only thing that sealed my fate was the PO dying).

I hear claims that Llama is stating opinions forcefully, but he isn't. He's asking questions and implying things, but never being bold and direct about his accusations. The ones that he actually makes, and I mean the ones he actually asserts rather than implying, are meager. A lot of his posts seem to be fill-in-the-blank, which makes him unaccountable, and further makes him seem smart and right because you're projecting your own conclusions onto him.

Lets say we wagon TI. Best case scenario, we lynch scum. Lets look at other things though, lets say TI is town. We now have a vanilla living through the night, PR pool shrinks.

This argument is constructed exactly how I construct mine when I play scum, namely "look at the scenarios, now look how it's logical to lynch this guy." The problem I have is not only does it assume all facts are known, it proposes that the only alternative to lynching Tony is The Internet.

Llama's also bugging me over this:

I saw the wagon build fast when compared to the TI, which is why I commented on it. You claiming though just threw me off and really destroyed a lot of options in my mind about exploring why this occured.

"Hey, I was going to analyze those guys that rushed the vote on Tony, but then you claimed and screwed it up." So you don't have a few names, that's nothing to cry about, I'd like to see an analysis anyway. Also the first part, "Look, I saw the buildup and commented on it! Look at that! See, I'm town because I commented on the speed of the wagon, nevermind that I'm one of the people who pushed and contributed to the wagon."

I find it interesting that the votes that are on Tony are some of the people we considered suspect as well, such as Coheed&Cambria, Puta, Porochaz... Basically ones that were accused of being scummy regardless of lurking.

[Zilla]

I never said Wolf was confirmed town who could "cruise to endgame". I just said that your "catch" wasn't a tell.

This.

I'm still out for charter but I'd prefer The Internet to Tony because of the difference in support for it, and that I believe Tony's claim. I know I'll be around before deadline to switch votes if necessary, but I remain convinced that Charter is scum.

[Zilla]

Sorry, over Thanksgiving I've been procrastinating paying attention to this large game. Going to set aside some time for this.

Honestly this has been what you've said for your past 5 or so posts. It's only marginally better than lurking.

TM's latest post puts him back on as number 2 for me.

Tony and the Internet are both playing newbie style, but Tony's looking more and more scummy by the minute, while The Internet is looking just more and more newbie to me. There's also charter's latest hypocrisy with "Getting wolf lynched" to add to the fire. I honestly still think he's the best target.

[Zilla]

EBWOP: Also, I had a serious bust-up laughter fit when Charter said "not as town as Xtoxm." Please tell me I'm not alone in thinking Xtoxm is scummy?

[Zilla]

TI is trying to be helpful, he doesn't quite know how and people are demanding things that he doesn't know how to provide, while Tony's been counterproductive and looks like he's just trying to do whatever it takes to allay suspicion.

[Zilla]

TI is trying to be helpful, he doesn't quite know how and people are demanding things that he doesn't know how to provide, while Tony's been counterproductive and looks like he's just trying to do whatever it takes to allay suspicion.

TI only becomes helpful when people start voting him and calling him scummy. Go back and look at his history, every time I called him scum he started posting reads he has on players. Will you at least change your mind when TI votes TM in an attempt to save himself. TI needs to vote soon, so does Hybris.

Also these wagons are closer then they appear I think. I dont want to go indepth over why though since its not my doing that is causing this.

Your whole stance on this issue raises concern for me; if either The Internet is town or Tony is scum, I'm going to be very suspicious of you. It seems you've been trying to channel the town against The Internet instead of Tony, and I can see this as being a reaction to the wagon on your scumbuddy.

I dare Charter to make a post that doesn't make me suspect him more.

Xtoxm, I call BS on your claim that you're not helping because you get lynched for being pro-town. I understand the sentiment considering I was wagoned for trying to help too, but it seems like a scum grab for a free-pass to not have to act town. I also want to know why Charter thinks you're the most pro-town player when you yourself have said you're not being pro-town because that gets you lynched. Charter is being utterly rediculous.

[Zilla]

The rason that charte doesnt thin that xtoxm is scum is that xtoxm has the same viewpoint as cahrter. I dont know if this is genuine or noe but the fact that xtoxm has the same ideas as chater is making charter call xtoxm town.

Way to pull a Hybris, you know. You basically answered for Charter and BlakAdder and I were trying to get info out of him.

[Zilla]

Its pretty straightforward really. Whens oemone agrees with you its natural to assume they share similar intentions. Town charter would assume people who think the same as him are town, scum charter would call people who think like him town for the same reasons.

I dont think lynching xtoxm/wolf today is the best move, although their alignments are looking increasingly benificial to obtain for the good of the town.

This question was pretty obvious though, from the first time it was asked I thought it was more rhetorical then anything else. People tend to be more comfortable with people who will agree with them. Its why fatcats have yes men, its why scum back townies, its how the human mind works.

1) We don't know if that is why Charter's saying Xtoxm is the most town player, and if it was, it's pretty dumb to subjectively suggest he's the "most town" just because he agrees with him.

2) I wanted Charter to explain why he thought Xtoxm was town. His "Yeah, what Llama said" response is scummy to me, like he couldn't come up with his own answer so he took someone elses.

3) I thought it was pretty obvious why I was after Puta too, but you jumped all over Hybris for answering for me WITH A QUOTE FROM ME. It's hypocritical for you to answer for Charter now.

I think Charter's a good day 1 lynch, I think both TM and TI are town. The case on TI is that he hasn't been contributing and only contributes when the pressure is on him, but that comes from both town and scum, and if he is scum, he's not being very beneficial to scum's agenda by simply lurking. Basically, if he is scum, his only harm is what his role is, rather than how he's playing. Charter is being detrimental to town by trying to control the lynch (or should I say "get Wolf lynched") and actively running a defense play. Lynching The Internet gets us a bit of info on Llama (the one pushing the hardest for his lynch) and perhaps some of the weaker bandwagoners like C&C09, who jumped between Tony and The Internet without much complaint. Lynching charter gives us data on Xtoxm, KMD, me, and Wolframnhart's replacement.

[Zilla]

What, this?

Zilla is still meh, cant stop thinking she is too quick to dismiss his other cases, has some fabricated posts and some interesting frustration, and pretty much everyone has reacted to her wagon. still thinking this makes her an optymal lynch.

That's all you've got on me for the past 4 pages, and it isn't even any direct accusation. It's all subjective analysis. If you want, I'll point out that it's a really weak analysis because it doesn't provide any real instances of "fabricated posts," my "interesting frustration" isn't scum related, and just because everyone was on my case doesn't make me scum (actually more likely to be the opposite). I don't know what you mean by "she is too quick to dismiss his other cases" because I don't know who the "his cases" refers to, and I'm not dismissing them, Charter's just at the top of my list.

[Zilla]

I thought you already knew it but here we go again.
Fabricated posts : voting for two persons in the same post. What do you want to accomplish with that?

I thought you already knew but here we go again.

I wanted to show my thought process. I don't see how that's scummy, I already answered this.

Interesting frustration: voting for yourself and less than one day away unvoting and going crazy against Puta, again for a weak reason. What was the reason for that selfvote? Real frustration or you wanted it to look like frustration?

Which glass is the poison in? You can skew it all you want, I did what I did.

Everyone reacted to your wagon: The fact that you think that EVERYONE in your wagon is scum makes sense to you? Do you think you are a good at lynch after all?

I specifically pointed out the people I thought were scum that were on my list. The "fact" that I think "EVERYONE in my wagon was scum" is "fiction" that you made up, as I clearly pointed out that I wanted Llama, Mana ku, and Puta looked at. I don't think I'm such a good lynch because I think we have good leads on scum candidates, and I no longer provide the information I once would have. That's not to say that a snap-wagon on me wouldn't be interesting in it's own right, and I'm pretty sure it would have to be scum-driven to achieve any form of success.

In fact, I'm all up for trying, because I'm pretty sure it'd be pretty telling of who was scum.

Quick to dismiss your other cases: What happened with Puta, Hybris, TI, Wolf, Xtomx? Do you still think they are scum?

Puta, yes.
Hybris, I was never too sure on.
TI, no.
Wolf, I can't say either way, but my case on him was based on one point and one slip while other players take priority. I wouldn't be disappointed with Wolf's replacement being lynched.
Xtomx, YES DEAR GOD YES. He's next in line after Charter, as far as I'm concerned.

Town usually turns on whoever is pushing the mislynches. It's natural to suspect the guy who is steering the town when the town is losing bad.

Until recently, Llama was shadow-puppeteering, where he was never the real force behind the lynch. It wasn't until this last push on TI that he really became ringleader when it came to pushing on someone. Now he seems to be going crazy trying to lynch TI, which at the very least makes him accountable.

I'm all for Xtoxm being lynched and it seems like that has more steam behind it than Charter, so:

Unvote: Charter
Vote: Xtoxm

Also, KMD, you're making it hard for me to voice my opinion without looking scummy because I'm agreeing with you, but I too don't really like the TM and TI lynches, I find them to be scumbait, as you said. They come off to me as inexperienced town. They're way farther down on my list.

[Zilla]

vote count:

Xtoxm 1 vote: (BlakAdder, Zilla, Kmd4390)

Misprint?

[Zilla]

Puta, yes.
Hybris, I was never too sure on.
TI, no.
Wolf, I can't say either way, but my case on him was based on one point and one slip while other players take priority. I wouldn't be disappointed with Wolf's replacement being lynched.
Xtomx, YES DEAR GOD YES. He's next in line after Charter, as far as I'm concerned.

stop parroting.

[Zilla]

Xtoxm gives us a look at Charter, Zilla, KMD, Elvis, and Wolf's replacement. (5)

Tony gives us a look at CC, Llama, Porochaz... I can't really think of who else is connected to Tony. (3+?)

The Internet gives us a look at Llama, CC, Nitro (who voted Tony on weak logic when it was tied, could be implication by association). (3?)

I think Xtoxm is the best person to lynch out of those three being that he has a good chance of being scum (still hasn't answered why he's being decidedly anti-town effectively, IMO) and has a lot of connections, whether from the people pushing for his lynch or the people he's agreeing with on weak logic.

[Zilla]

I don't like Llama pushing so hard for a claim, but that in itself makes me want to settle the matter once and for all and lynch the Internet.

Those two really bother me; there's a very large chance they're both mislynches from being misbehaving townies. If you want a direct analysis, I'd say Tony's scummier of the two, but I'd say lynching TI gives us more concrete information on other players. If he's town, I'd look at Llama, and if Llama is scum, I'd VERY heavily expect Tony to be scum as well. It was all Llama that flipped the train around onto TI, and it's still him that's trying to guarantee TI being lynched.

I still feel the Charter/Xtoxm/Elvis group is a better chance for finding scum, and I actually think CoheeedCambria is scummier than Tony or The Internet. If TI is clean, it implicates him more.

All in all, if it comes down to the two, I think The Internet is a better lynch candidate, even though he's less scummy. It sets up for Day 2 better than a Tony lynch. If need be, I will commit to The Internet by tomorrow, but I personally still find Xtoxm the best candidate.

[Zilla]

Also, I should clarify; seeing such weight put into claims on this site is foreign to me. Where I come from, claims are nearly worthless. There's very little in a claim that isn't subjective. It's possible they may slip up and their claim contradicts past actions, but the entire WIFOM nature of a roleclaim, not to mention how it can be bad for town to expose power roles, makes them feel pointless to me.

[Zilla]

Charter's tied himself to TI too, so may as well.

Unvote: Xtoxm
Vote: The Internet

[Zilla]

Its a visable one vote gap. I think its really a tied vote.

What makes you say this?

[Zilla]

I'm rather surprised to be dead. [/dead]

[Zilla]

Hello guys, this looks like an interesting game... I especially agree with that Zilla girl's opinions from Day 1.

Actually, in all seriousness, I'm feeling neutral about this current state of affairs. I have a nagging feeling Nitro is scum, and almost every post Tony makes seems to incriminate him more.

I am a little unnerved that other people aren't being examined. There's points where Llama really bugs me, especially with his somewhat rhetorical but biased questions. It really seems like he's softly protecting Tony, but he did lead us to lynching The Internet yesterday, so it could be possible they are a mason group. It's also possible they are some third party, but aside from cult, they usually don't group up (as far as I know...?)

I'm not ready to vote. I vaguely suspect Nitro and Tony. Rest Fermata seems to at least have a pro-town image in all of her posts, though her timing could be much better. I would like to see more from Acid Flux.

[Zilla]

vote: Charter

^ that alone seems good enough. "Evidence? Reasons? That's anti-town!"

[Zilla]

Does TM scum makes NS more or less scum? TM town?

Do you ever straight out say anything? Or do you just try to gain confidence by asking questions?

I don't see the case on Nitro either. What is the case?

Also, I misread that post that Charter answered.

unvote: Charter

I thought he was just asking for evidence, not PO-verified evidence. I thought it was Charter going "Nitro's scum," AF going "Why?" and Charter going "ROLEFISHING!"

I am really not liking how defensive Llama has been of Tony, yesterday and today.

[Zilla]

All the voters for Nitro can explain why they are voting for him?

See post 1078

oh and come to think about it why does ti being guilty equal tm being innocent,, he still isn't that helpful

Is he the scummiest player though? If not who is?

You may answer for yourself, but it looks like you're answering for everyone.

Your leading questions are extremely defensive of TM without actually committing to a position on him.

[Zilla]

I'm seeing a link here between Charter, Llama, BlakAdder, and Tony. BlakAdder defends Llama:

I'm back. I'm still slightly suspicious of Tony, but less so seeing as Internet flipped scum. Not enough to vote him yet, but I've still got me eye on him.
Other than that, not much to say. I'm kind of suspicious of the fact that Llama is still alive, but I'm going to let that go since he hasn't done anything scummy

Llama defends Tony (see yesterday, see today), Charter and Llama work together against Nitro. The odd thing about this is that BlakAdder votes for Tony and he and Charter have their spats. I'm not feeling BlakAdder in that group as much.

[Zilla]

I want to see if TM flips town though too, it implicates a few people, and him flipping scum implicates a few more. If Nitro flips town, I'm all over charter and Llama. If he's scum, eh, good, but I don't see much coming from it.

I want to see examples of Nitro/Wolfram ignoring/deflecting TI.

[Zilla]

Llama, I don't feel that case is strong enough; Xtoxm WAS scummier than hell day 1, as was Tony. I will say that it seems either one of Tony or Wolfram/Nitro are scum. Tony's still crazy scummy. Overall, I'd rather go with a better bet rather than an unlucky townie.

You've got some nice credit backing you up off the TI lynch, but I'm paranoid of a huge play here on bussing, and there's part of me that wonders if it wasn't just a convenient set up from Day 1 to let you coast through the rest of the game, leading mislynch after mislynch.

I see BA catching flak from TM being town, not so much for Nitro being scum. The case isn't strong enough that only scum could be defending him. RF, I entirely don't understand. She appears to be quite level-headed when it comes to Nitro, not defensive but just analytical. Nitro being scum might discredit her, but it's not implication.

[Zilla]

Sorry for having been absent the past few days, I was flying/bussing home for the holidays.

A few things. First, I really don't like Llama trying to softly imply that I am scum just for being on his case. It's a camoflagued OMGUS. I also don't like how he went from "I'd be really shocked if Nitro(Zone) flipped town." to voting for someone else without even a case (I would at least expect him to hold off on the vote until he had time to put the case up.) What happened to "I'm going to get Nitro lynched"? And the only thing that would dissuade you was someone claiming scum?

I'm also extremely confused why, if you take Zone to be town, you're not reacting to Charter.

Vote: Charter

I'm inclined to believe the roleclaim, your case is truly crappy, and you haven't been able to offer anything on anyone else because of your tunnelvision, which seems like a nice crutch to conceal any other incriminating opinions you might otherwise be expected to give.

FoS: BlakAdder

I'd be pretty happy with a BA lynch as well, his voting and cases have been very distant and non-committal. His latest post implies that he'll go with the biggest wagon, regardless of if that wagon is founded or not.

[Zilla]

... Why didn't this work yesterday when I pointed out the exact same thing?

On huge RestFermata summay; I agree with Hybris that it isn't the best of cases. Some of the reads on her posts just seem wrong to me. There are a lot of no-content posts, but there are some marked no-content that shouldn't be, and the ones with content have a pro-town feel to me, despite putting TM over TI in her priorities. I think BlakAdder is a better case than RestFermata, BlakAdder was much more resolute in wanting to vote TM over TI and didn't even touch TI in the slightest.

On Hybris: Very fence-sitting and hardly accountable for anything, plus only playing defense for everybody. I think there are better targets to look at than Hybris, but there is a valid case there. It's entirely possible it is a safe buddying attempt, and it does seem rather incriminating that there was no vote for TI at all.

On Llama: You're attacking me very softly, relying on "feels" that have no logical backing, and your cases look superficially pro-town while I sense ulterior motive in your posts. I don't like your analysis of Charter. I don't like your quick withdrawal. I don't like your reconsideration of the importance of flavor, especially after you houdned Zilla 1 for talking about flavor day 1, and suddenly flavor is a good thing to bank on to save ZoneAce? I don't like how much credit you put in his claim, since it's still enitrely possible he got lucky with a fake role claim, and it's also possible that Joe was town but Bonnie was scum.

I personally don't suspect ZoneAce to be scum, but I still consider it a valid possibility. He hasn't proven for sure that he is town. However, I don't like your turnaround, and I don't like your manipulative style.

[Zilla]

EBWOP: The thing that bugs me is how hard you worked to get The Internet lynched yesterday. It was pro-town, no question about that, but it also could be a strong bus you rode and worked very hard on. Your conviction against The Internet day 1 does not seem warranted given the case you presented at the time, and furthermore, there was no night for you to have an investigative role. Your faith in Tony and Charter is also very disturbing.

[Zilla]

OH MY CRAP ZONEACE CHARTER BOTH OF YOU SHUT UP
God, does this ridiculous childish back-and-forth between the two of them not scream scum distancing to anybody else? There's little to no doubt in my mind that at least one of the two, if not both of them, is scum.

unvote, vote: ZONEACE

because I feel he is the more likely of the two. If either of you wants to convince me that you're town, stop saying the same crap to each other over and over and say something original.

I think you're picking the wrong pony there. Why is ZoneAce a better candidate?

ZoneAce has been trying to say different things to Charter, but Charter doesn't have anything on ZoneAce except for Wolf's "slip."

[Zilla]

It's not that Charter made a bad case, it's the way he advocates it, the way he thinks it's a valid reason for a lynch, and the way he ignores everything, (and I do mean everything) else in the game. At best, he's an anti-town townie, and an unrepentant one at that. His alignment will say a lot about a lot of people in this game.

[Zilla]

EDBWOP

KMD still needs to explain why we shouldn't string him up next for the assinine Truth Or Dare attack on prozac.

Maybe because, unlike Charter, he didn't try to say Porochaz needs to be lynched and is undeniably scum. I will say his case is totally weak, but he's not pushing it to ludicrousness like Charter, and not to mention, he isn't tunnelvisioned and has offered lots of input on other situations in the game aside from his strange one.

I'll tell you all something; if you actually have a solid case, it shouldn't be based on one post or one point; you should be able to find a motive behind all their actions and use more than one post or point for your attack.

[Zilla]

What wagon? You're alone on his case at the moment.

That said, I have my suspicions of Tubby/Puta as well, but Charter's topping my list.

[Zilla]

Except for Zilla 1 being all over PutaPuta, you mean...

Your analysis right there actually detracted from me wanting to lynch him, it reads like a confused townie, not scum. Zilla 1 was not a strong scum patsy lynch, that angle doesn't fit with scum behavior. My only desire for lynching tubby now is from Puta's actions.

Again, you're being very coercive with lines like "If you will not believe me though, I will make you believe me." Why in the world would you even include that, no matter what your alignment is?

I'm almost feeling BlakAdder over Charter, because he pushed TM over TI both yesterday and today, and he's defending Charter much more than Charter is defending himself. That seems pretty logical of scum trying to cover for a newbie scum player.

I'm thinking they're both scum at this point, but there seems to be more reason to vote BA than there does Charter.

Unvote: Charter
Vote: BlakAdder

[Zilla]

This is a page of fail.

It's not that TM isn't scum, it's that TI is confirmed scum, and there were people who ignored TI entirely and pushed TM.

To BA, not just for defending Charter, for your voting record and your unhelpfulness and your post tones also.

To Llama, you're ignoring my points, you're trying to skew my perspective on things, you're trying to frame me as scum for not wanting to lynch Puta's place anymore, and I'm rejecting a weak case in itself. Your case was very very weak. It reads like a confused townie.

You just NOW bring up Charter voting TI, that proves you've been digging to try to defend him.

I'm voting BA because he's got more to vote for than charter. Even if he's just defending a town-charter for credit, he's got a lot more on his plate that makes him look scummy.

Oh, and now you're answering for me? Didn't you jump on Hybris for answering for me on day 1? How much of a hypocrite can you be?

[Zilla]

It's like he thinks that everyone who is town MUST have been on the TI wagon and everyone who is scum MUST have been on the TM wagon. Personally I know that's not true.

Careful, the slip-detector is set on MAXIMUM.

But apparently it's not enough for Charter...

Yeah, RF, I'm a new player now, with no connection to Zilla 1. I appreciate the benefit you're lending me, but it's not based on the right stuff. :/

[Zilla]

Yes, we do have less than a week remaining.

AcidFlux, what do you mean it might be a clue? That post seems to have a lot of generalized guessing in it.

We have a ton of people who aren't voting. This is bad news. I'm willing to bet at least two scum are hiding in the unvoting populace.

[Zilla]

After a reread, of whats going on, I dont like the push of the charter case since I really dont think there is one. Given how fast he voted for TI, when he did, I just dont see scum buddy. Same with EK.

Tubby should still be dying with that 100% beyond awful vote on TM he just put down, I really dont see why he has one vote as is.

I will probably be moving my vote to a different suspect that is a lynch competitor after ZONEACE answers my question.

@ZONEACE - Were you searching for KoC, was he searching for you, or was it mutual?

No new information in this post; read Llama's last few posts and he says the same thing. This is what I don't like about him. He acts like he's contributing something for the first time, like it should matter, when it's just the same rhetoric he's already said and it's STILL going to be regarded the same way.

Essentually, this post could be reduced to the question to ZoneAce (I'm personally a little confused by it) and "My previous stance still stands."

Llama: Why is tubby's vote on TM scummy? What do you think of BlakAdder, KMD, and Porochaz?

[Zilla]

EBWOP: I now understand the question he asked. I don't see how it's relevant to anything; it doesn't prove alignment no matter WHAT his answer is.

[Zilla]

EBWOP: Missed ZoneAce's answer, and again, I don't see how it proves anything. He could still be a scummy mother. I honestly think the intricacies of his role are only interesting in so far as we want to speculate on the validity of his roleclaim; something we are ill-equipped to debate because we don't have enough information and there is no real way to get that information.

Such low votecounts make scum-controlled lynching easier. I buy KMD's EK read; I was skeptical at first on the case but around the middle, he hits with some convincing analysis. As deadline creeps closer, if BA turns out to be unviable, EK will be my backup.

I've gone the tiniest bit lukewarm on the Charter lynch. In retrospect, while his actions have been anti-town, they're rather harmless. and it's entirely possible he's just a horrible town player. I just came out of a game where I lynched the person who was making the least sense in LyLo and it turned out to be the other townie, while the person who I thought would have had to be incredibly devious to be scum turned out to actually be scum. It shows that even poor town players and still town players, and those who are the scummiest looking on the surface aren't necessarily scum to begin with.

At the same time, Charter's lynch will give us more information than a Porochaz or tubby lynch.

[Zilla]

Sorry for not being here, unexpected long parties that I went to attend and I didn't bring my laptop with me.

@ KMD; I included you because I wanted Llama's opinion on both sides of your case on porochaz.

I feel BA is still scum, but I also feel now that Tubby is scum for his vote on Hybris that looks extremely opportunistic; it looks like he was just following the trend and was gutsy enough to put the vote out there, possibly to build credit. In general, I AM not liking his actions.

unvote: BlakAdder
Vote: Tubby

L -2

Also @ KMD; I think you've got a case there on EK. I think it's a valid pursuit, but it's looking like now isn't the time to do it, though it beats not getting anything done.

[Zilla]

Llama is rolefishing extremely hard. Notice the pattern of pushing for pressure, claiming, and backing off. I'm really uncomfortable with this tactic, especially given itx precedence.

I'm still happy with BA lynching, and I'm still distrustful of Tubby, but now, I'm just tired of the manipulation going on here by Llama.

Unvote: Tubby
Vote: LlamaFluff

I've had a bad feeling about the way you handled day 1, where you pushed on TI over TM on a case that still doesn't quite make total sense and with a conviction that seems not to fit that case. It looks like you were looking to score big with a bus that you worked hard on to me. Aside from that, you claim that nothing would have stopped your pursuit of Zoneace, and he just offers a claim (which you specifically said wouldn't detract you unless someone ELSE claimed scum) and you back down. Now you've gone cold on Tubby because he's a doublevoter. I think you're looking for town power roles, and even if you're not, you're helping scum by limiting that pool.

Yeah, I'm ABSOLUTELY fine with a vote on you now, and I feel retroactive shame for helping you add pressure to the Tubby case.

FOS: AcidFlux

for putting tubby at what was assumed to be L -1 at an inopportune time.

[Zilla]

BS you're being persuasive, I didn't vote Tubby based on anything you said, and your case on him was crap. I voted him because of his own post, where he voted Hybris in a move that looked patently like a confidence builder and looked like a cheap shot at the time.

You're not just being aggressive, you've got an agenda and you're manipulating people to accomplish it. You've gone after three people today, and backed off when they claimed each time, and each claim has been a rather weak power claim. You're plainly, clearly, and unabashedly rolefishing.

[Zilla]

Also, why RestFermata? She's one of the more pro-town players from my standpoint, and I definately trust her over Hybris. I'm not ready to call on either of them, but RF shows up far more townie. She's near the bottom of my suspicion list. I may as well say KMD is down there too.

[Zilla]

You misconstrue my meanings. Their claims aren't weak in their believability, they are weak in what they claim to do. They are claims of weakness. A double voter? That's hardly of concern to the mafia next to a PO, BG, or vig. Same goes for a searching mason whose partner is dead and functions as vanilla.

You can claim all you want that you push your own agenda no matter what alignment it is, but you're digging for roles and it's transparently helping scum, considering you've already eliminated two players from their list of potential night threats. I don't see much pro-town coming from you, I only see scum or self-aligned motivations for the way you've been acting.

[Zilla]

You know, you could actually do some analysis instead of those bland summaries for starters.

[Zilla]

EBWOP

Rememer the last guy who just did summaries of people? The Internet?

[Zilla]

EBWOP didn't refresh, that was to charter, not Llama....

[Zilla]

It doesn't matter what you think of the DoubleVoter, he's not as powerful as a PO, BG, or vig, and all of those get potentially stronger as the game goes on, just less so during the day. That STILL does not establish town motivation. You're ignoring the point that you've been uncovering town roles and helping narrow down suspects for scum.

[Zilla]

Police Officer, investigator.

I guess Doctor is the more common name for the BG here? Bodyguard? The one who can protect someone at night, anyway.

[Zilla]

Again, Llama's quoted case on Wolf doesn't look very scummy. It looks like a stretch of a spin to consider his indecisiveness scummy, and it really looks similar to the case he built on Tubby that looks more like a confused townie than anything else.

Perhaps rolefishing is far less of a crime than I thought it to be if RF's question is an example, because whatever you're doing is far worse than whatever RF did with that question, regardless of label. Maybe role-digging? Role-spelunking? Role-excavating? You're not only finding out what roles are in the game, you're trying to find out who has what role. The entire way you operate is scummy, AND YOU'RE STILL IGNORING THAT.

[Zilla]

So, asking nonchalantly is rolefishing, but goading under pressure isn't?

[Zilla]

I'm glad I'm justified in thinking Llama's capable of high-level deceit.

You've caught more scum than me? That justifies nothing, as that's exactly what you'd like to claim from bussing TI, and he's the only one we can consider "caught" either way. Reading over it again, it looks so bussed, it's not even funny. You worked REALLY hard to push TI over TM on the slightest of logic, and I reiterate, with a conviction that doesn't match your evidence. Even now, you're falling back to a ZONEACE stance, one which you said you would not retract unless someone else claimed scum originally, but instead you went after tubby.

Here's a crucial question; why would you abandon the case on ZA, switch to tubby, then fall back onto ZA once Tubby claimed?

[Zilla]

This is what I call rolefishing:

Is this a 'gut feeling', or do you actually have investigative evidence to support this statement?

Even though he has said repeatedly that it's not rolefishing, and he's just "clarifying"...to me, that's a textbook example.

I made a big to-do about this being fishing when it happened the first go around and people called me scum, why is now different?

If you mean my initial reaction, it was from misreading Acid's post. I see both points on that question.

@RF - Yes AF was rolefishing a bit

too

. Your push of trying to figure out where a cop claimed was a fish too though. Then again I can find a few other instances of other people fishing, been a lot of it in this game.

Slip?

No... I'll let everyone know when another slip occurs.

You've been doing such a good job of keeping on top of the slips, nevermind the four or so I've pointed out between here and Wolfram's.

Llama, you'd already seen me say that his claim wasn't necessarily pro-town before your V/LA but you continued to push for tubby against all odds. Then Tubby had to go and shoot himself in the foot by running his mouth off and attracting all the wrong kinds of attention. How do you read the Tubby wagon, if you consider him to be town now?

[Zilla]

First, you pay no mind to the evidence the tubby wagon might give? It seems like you're disregarding it entirely, and saying that it doesn't say anything about anyone. Also, could you make sure there aren't any mistakes in that? I'm confused by "I was increasingly sure of him being town due to most of the players on his wagon giving me town reads."

What? Because you thought the people voting for him were town, you were thinking tubby was likely town?

And also we are at the "unhappy" vote count again. Right now tubby is at four and hybris/ZONEACE/charter at three each. That is just sad. People lone voting should vote with enough of a group to have an effect, throwing away a vote at this point is hella scummy.

Things can certainly turn around quickly. Quite a nice defense manuver to focus everyone on those four candidates, as if we don't have time to lynch anyone else (I'm still looking at you). Tubby wasn't onscreen until he made his vote on Hybris, and we brought him all the way to L-1 (or -2 depending on FL's claim)

Oh, and FL was the third role you managed to coax out today, I knew there were three.

[Zilla]

^ or, you know, Tubby ends up being town aligned and you just want to axe the doublevoter while the votes are high on him.

[Zilla]

Thats entirely possible. If he is town aligned and a doublevoter, then it will be a bit of a loss. I could want to do it that way, nevermind all the evidence, me voting him before he was a real wagon, and such.

You mean your "This looks like OMGUS but I don't care" vote on the top of page 54?

Just what is "all the evidence" then?

[Zilla]

I don't like either of the posts coming from Llama and Hybris.

So, you voted me for... wait. Hopped from it once the TM wagon gained momentum? You're making less and less sense. I'm pretty sure that there were no votes between my voting and unvoting of wolf so thats null.

Not null because you accuse Tubby of voting you when your wagon gained momentum, even though his vote was the only vote added to your wagon. HYPOCRISY.

I never bothered to acknowledge the ti thing? I'm not even sure what you mean, I explained and talked about my reasoning, so I sure acknowledged it at least.

Look back at Day 1 and even your comments on TI are so non-committal that he has a valid point.

And the third one, while I wasn't 'buddying up', is null in any case because that was after your vote on me and if you can't provide any sort of reasoning for your vote on me from before I voted you, which I'm pretty sure you aren't able to, then you voted me for essentially no reason. And I think thats pretty scummy.

And, the first two points you've had ample time to bring up, you preferably should have provided them in the post you voted me, because right now it looks like you're trying to dig up reasons post-vote because you can't really think of any.

A good point destroyed by the raging hypocrisy of the situation, in which this whole exercise was an attempt to "dig up reasons to post-vote because you can't really think of any."

Couple that with continuing to vote for Tubby (though now it's self-preservation, it seems) regardless of your waning suspicion and rising accusations against Llama as a more likely candidate regardless of Tubby's behavior, and your case on Tubby is very weak.

On to Llama:

The only thing giving me real doubts right now is the double-voting, which does not mean he's town, and if he's scum with that, he's all the more dangerous for it.

Which is why we role claim when a scummy person is nearing a lynch *cough* Zilla *cough*. You are sounding like you are considering him such a threat if he is scum that we should lynch him today just incase he is.

The same could be said of your case on ZoneAce. HYPOCRISY. Further, why are you mentioning me? I can't even think what you're trying to imply there. Is this about Zilla I not claiming even though she was nearing a lynch on day 1? Zilla 1 was town, so I don't see what you're possibly hoping to draw from that. Perhaps you're trying to say I don't think people should claim? Hardly, it's just that I don't value their claim as much as you seem to, since both claims made you recoil like a kid touching a hot stove, DESPITE your resolution not to flinch under any circumstance.

He voted me with little to no reason, other than the fact that I seemed to be an easy target at the time. That alone is very scummy, and considering its part of a trend that he's been doing, I've got to say that a lot of the things he's been doing are anti-town at least.

You werent an "easy target" at the time. Easy targets were ZONE and charter, especially as given the DV it put him out deadline lynch. Also he has pretty decent reasons to be voting you, the last few pages have been a crash and burn phase for you. You have played both sides of the "lynch tubby" wagon, and even nonw seem to be preparing to dump blame of a mislynch on me (and have been for a while).

First off, read the context around his vote on Hybris. It WAS opportunistic, hence my vote on him in that context. That vote was picking on an easy target without even having to face much for consequences. His vote was never meant to lead to a lynch, lynching leads to accountability and it would be far better to build your image by voting for someone thought to be scum but with less chance of actually being lynched. Furthermore, voting for the leading candidates hardly boosts any credibility; you're just going with the flow. He put his vote on Hybris at such a point that it looked like an attempt to reap the benefit of the building suspicion on Hybris while still evading accountability.

Secondly, you're doing the same thing Hybris is accusing tubby of; validating the vote with information from after the vote. He didn't have any of the "Crash and burn" posts when he made that vote, so how could that be his basis for voting? Further, you really need to explain how this is "crashing and burning." To me, it looks more like paranoid flailing.

Third, however catch-22 Hybris's case on you may seem, it is still valid. Regardless of Tubby's alignment, there exists a scum reason to push for his lynch. I personally don't think this was a bus job though, it's too risky for such little gain given the way it played out. The question remains whether you ever thought it would go anywhere to begin with, and to be certain, it was mostly his efforts that dug him his own grave, not your case on him.

It was one of those instances where the vote was shitty, but the wagon wasnt as bad as it could be. This of course is aside from the fact that the only way any of my suspicions make any good sense once they pass two players is if people are bussing in really wierd spots. You have been following people quite a bit though this game, something that you are calling tubby scum for doing right now.

This is a very confusing paragraph and I can't follow the logic behind it. The first sentence is something I don't like; I'm relatively sure scum were involved with some of the votes. I don't like the L-1 vote, for instance. The second sentence seems to have rethought where it was going somewhere around "the only way", and has no connection to the first sentence. The last sentence is completely standalone, and has nothing to do with the preceding two.

I will admit Hybris has been the ultimate fence-sitter and took little initiative in making any cases, but tubby is the opposite; he didn't make his own cases either, and instead of being reserved, he threw his vote in where it looked best to do so. Tubby can be seen as actively trying to look good, while Hybris can be seen as trying to have no accountability. I wouldn't call these things identical, though they are in the same vein.

Hey check it out. If tubby is scum, I bussed. If tubby is town, I got him lynched as scum. Looks like a lose lose situation for me here. Either way though, you already have someone to vote tomorrow, as well as scapegoat if tubby is town. Although you just called tubby town for his DV thing because you think FL is town. Which is in direct contridiction to your vote, and to the fact that part of the reason you want tubby lynched is that he is scum DV.

Addressed earlier, but the skinny is that it's a valid catch-22. You can't deny either of the cases, so really it's more that tubby's alignment doesn't say anything about your alignment. The second part doesn't make sense because thinking FL is town and tubby is scum is not direct contradiction to the vote, nor is thinking tubby is a scum DV. This second part makes no sense. That's why Hybris voted tubby. Where is the contradiction?

Hell I am probably going to catch quite a bit of flack for this move... but

First off, I hate these lines. They're "get out of scummy actions free" statements. It says "I'm about to do something scummy, but let my self-awareness excuse that. Because I know it looks scummy, it's okay." Further, it doesn't even help your case because it makes the connection that voting Hybris is scummy.

unvote
Vote Hybris

Few reasons, more later though

1) His post 11, votes wolf while saying that he think the argument is weak, but the best so far. This is an example of his parroting, unwillingness to scumhunt, and poor voting.

Wolf, who you until now suspected to be scum? At best, make the comparison how this vote totally doesn't jive with Hybris' playstyle for the rest of the game, how this is a vote made on shaky faith while later, Hybris won't commit to a vote even on much more sure faith.

2) His post 4. Deflection of being lurky onto other players.

Flipping sides of argument here, I'd like to point out Hybris does this again in this post:

I wouldn't say I've been lurking, since lately not many have been posting at all, and this and scumhunting, can be magnified by a factor of ten and aimed at Tubby.

This post is two posts above mine (unless I'm ninja'd). However, I fail to see the implication here. It simply presents more evidence that other people are guilty (or guiltier) of the same thing, which is scumhunting.

3) His post 30. Creation of a false dillema (states only cases are on him, Zilla, and charter/zone). Says charter/wolf best case, isnt voting on it.

First off, more hypocrisy as you yourself created false dilemma today, and I had pointed that out last page. Secondly, I agree it's a dumb move, but I fail to find any scum motivation behind it, and futhermore, Hybris gives no indication of actually having anything figured out enough to commit one way or another on Charter/Wolf.

4) His post 38. Pushing attention onto TM in an attempt to get kloud to call him scummy, while not showing any signs of thinking TM is scum.

Agreed this is a weird post and it does seem deflective, the only problem is that it deflects from Charter, who you claim to be town. If Hyrbis was scum-defending, it's defending Charter.

WOAH WOAH BACK THE TRAIN UP!

I found this little gem in context around that post:

Like I said, done trying to convince anyone.

Go ahead and lynch hybris, he won't be scum.

And yes, I am going to use the "I told ya so" tomorrow in this scenario.

Also none of your post there has anything to do with what wolf said and how it makes him scum.

Are you SERIOUS?

[/b]Unvcote: Puta puta
Vote: Charter[/b]

I don't even nead to explain myself because you've done a splendid job laying out my logic for me. If you want to know why I'm voting Charter, read Charter's posts for the last three pages.

KMD, you forgot me, who has done a heck of a lot more than Llama in deconstructing Charter's stupidity.

Lots of things to learn from remembering this; first off; Llama was against Charter's case on day 1. Second off, charter guarantees Hybris won't be scum, which now means THEY HAVE DEFENDED EACH OTHER. Third off, it may possibly explain why Hybris defends Charter in the next post.

With this, I do think Hyrbis will give us more information than tubby, and I am extremely curious to get to the bottom of this Llama and Charter madness.

unvote: Llama
Vote: Hybris

I personally think that out of Llama, Charter, and Hybris, at least one will be scum. It's also possible all three are scum, but of different alignment.

[Zilla]

EBWOP: Please give due attention to the last part of that post, I feel I need to emphasize that. It's taking some evidence from day 1 that had slipped between the cracks.

[Zilla]

I think I'm going to ride it out on Hybris just from the mountain of information we'll get. If Hybris is scum, I'd take a long look at the charter pushers. Just from the way this is moving, I'm thinking one or the other of these two has scum support. It's possible both of them do. I'm tired of all those roles being thrown out that the mafia can use to narrow their hunt, and I'd like to follow up on one of them rather than have this ambiguity hanging in the air, especially information that is ambiguous to town but not to scum.

[Zilla]

This just in: taking a look at the voters:

charter voters (6) : (ZONEACE, Porochaz, CoheedCambria09, Acid Flux, Tony Montana, Hybris)
Hybris voters (6): (RestFermata, LlamaFluff, tubby216, Zilla, Kmd4390, Elivs knits)

The people voting for charter have been mildly scummy for the most part. The people voting for Hybris range all over the place in my book.

On a scale of -10 (scum) to 10 (town), the charter voters rank as such:

ZONEACE: +1 (not very town, but if I had to call it right now, I'd say he is town.)
Porochaz: -1 (Quite up in the air, and, again, if I had to call it, I'd call him as scum, but I'm still very undecided)
CoheedCambria09: 0 (He hasn't been helpful, but I get the feeling that he's not scum but unhelpful town)
AcidFlux: -4 (He impressed me at first by challenging Llama, but it went all downhill from there.)
Tony Montana: -7 (I'm very sure he'd flip scum.)

On Hybris we have:

RestFermata: +4 (I don't see Llama's case on RF, even in his last post it was a huge stretch, because he acted like she knows for sure what Hybris is going to be, when any sane townie always has that lingering doubt, and her posts all game long seem to be genuine and pro-town.)
LlamaFluff: -3 (This was pro-town on Day 1, but Day 2 has been a mess, he's pushed on two people who have claimed, then backed off. At best, he's got a broken scumdar and too much impetus. At worst, he's keniving scum playing outside of his group. Actually, that seems to fit with self-aligned. Make that a -5, since we know self-aligned is in this game)
tubby: +1 (I'd say he's reckless town at this point, even worse that he's doublevoter.)
Zilla: (Come on, you really want me to rate myself? No matter WHAT alignment I am, I'd put +10 here and it would be WIFOM, )
KMD: +4 (Highly pro-town, it might be an interesting exercise to try to build a case on him just to see if there even is one...)
EK: -2 (I'm totally not ready to call this one, but his support of Charter's stupid logic day 1 hurts his case a lot.)

Adding the points together (and discluding myself from point total), the people on charter's case are scummier than the people on Hybris's case, so I'm fine sticking it out here.

[Zilla]

You don't seem to have any attachments, but you're playing scummy, so naturally, what is a scum alignment with no friends?

[Zilla]

Either that or mafia gets two kills or there are two mafia or there are two vigilantes.

I really don't like Hybris' pre-death bah post. :/

[Zilla]

Why is ZoneAce suddenly not voting for charter anymore? He hasn't unvoted between vote counts, and he's on the prior one, but not on the new one...

[Zilla]

hybris isn't a doublevoter, she claimed vanilla...

I don't see anything that says charter is town. I don't think he is town, personally, and Llama's unwavering conviction that Charter is town, based on no evidence at all, is extremely unsettling. However, the gang that's voting him suffer from poor reputation in my book as it is. Suffice to say that I'm not ready to lynch charter under these conditions, while I still have a lot of questions about Hybris that only a lynch can verify.

[Zilla]

FOS: Tony Montana

You just hammered Hybris and YOU'RE STILL READING?!

[Zilla]

Yeah, understandibly, we are incredibly close to deadline, but still, was that really necessary? Thank god we have a vigilante...

[Zilla]

You know, the worst part about this being so close to deadline is that we probably won't know whether it's a majority lynch or a deadline lynch...

[Zilla]

Tubby's doublevote means Hybris is already hammered.

[Zilla]

Well, if for some reason it ends up beaing a deadline lynch, that means we get more clues on the voters, meaning either tubby lied about being a double voter, there's another null voter, or something else. It would just give us more information to work with.

[Zilla]

I'm still on Llama's case; could still be a bus-job day 1, and he did indeed throw suspicion on now-confirmed town players Day 2.

FL was killed by the mafia, evident with the gunshot, and RF was killed by something else, likely self-aligned. In other words, the mafia didn't plan for RF to die, they went after FL. It's not concrete, but FL seems like an apetizing mafia target considering his tenuous relationship with any of the town. RF, on the other hand, was on Charter and Llama's bad side; having her flip town was detrimental to them.

So, she only got one investigation off before being killed, and TM looks like a solid suggestion for investigation night 1. I'm willing to go along with that, despite it being Charter's suggestion, who I still have suspicion for. Right now though, I more heavily suspect Llama, especially because Llama has a true agenda while Charter is just pushing on someone with inappropriete enthusiasm.

I'm not too afraid of laying down a

Vote: LlamaFluff

even this early in the day.

[Zilla]

Dur, EBWOP, *her* for FL.

Sorry, I kinda reduced you to a two-letter acronym and didn't bother to associate the person behind the unfamiliar screenname, and it's a gender neutral screenname... I'm subject to the same thing, so I should be more wary.... [/apology to dead person]

[Zilla]

ZA claimed Bonnie Day 2, looking for Joe.

I said Llama could possibly be an SK due to his style of play that doesn't quite suggest mafia, though he does defend charter irrationally. I can't remember if I started that as Zilla I or Zilla II though.

I've been a little conflicted about how Llama has been defending me. It couldl be cheap buddying, but it just as well might be that he's smart enough to believe me.
If it came to hedging my bets, I would say I'm less fond of the crowd on ZONE's nuts, than on Llama's.

wich is why i am backing him on zoneace it plays into my hunch

lolwut? You don't trust the people on ZoneAce as much as those on Llama, so you vote ZoneAce? What kind of hunch is that?

Llama does have a point though, it's odd to set up any kind of contingency for flipping scum. The only motivation I can see for that is that he WOULD flip scum and wants us to turn to charter afterward. It really does make no sense at all.

[Zilla]

^ Those seem like highly cryptic and ultimately useless things to ask, as if you want to hide information from people and try to figure it out. What use is knowing his exact post restriction? The second question seems pretty self-evident already, and the third one just seems pointless unless you want to speculate on what his penalty is.

[Zilla]

Yes, because you get to pick and choose what arguments you respond to, and it's you I need to debate with over whether you're scummy or not. :/

I'm not trying to convince you of what you already know. I already accused you of information-mining the town, I accused you of irrationally defending Charter and irrationally pushing TI when there was no clear indication either way, and I'm accusing you now for pushing on RF who turned out to be a cop.

[Zilla]

I used to be in debate, and I'd pull these kind of tactics too; if you don't have time or ability to refute all their claims, you basically just make them keep bringing it up until they forget or mess up, and count on the judge's bookkeeping being off. This REALLY reminds me of high-school debate in that Llama's trying to pick his arguments, and avoiding answering standing accusations (there's more that I know I've forgotten already) so that they are dropped.

[Zilla]

Information-Mining: Just because you're not asking for a mass claim or making vague requests for roles does not mean you aren't digging for roles, and especially considering how you've reacted to them. Once again, your conviction that you wouldn't unvote ZoneAce unless someone else claimed scum, then your backpedaling, using the same push-and-pull tactic on Tubby, and then turning back toward ZoneAce slowly.

Charter: I consider it a tell because you refuse, and CONTINUE to refuse justifying it to any extent, and now that the cop is dead and not you, I see absolutely no reason to afford him this much benefit of the doubt. Basically, the only way I can understand such adamant defense is if you know his role, and the only way you can know his role is if you are scum.

TI: It was irrational and unwarranted at the time, and it reads like a bus-job. You answer with sarcasm and don't refute anything in the slightest.

RF: I'll go more into detail at the closing of my analysis, which follows:

Early game, you push for Zilla I pretty hard, despite voting Hybris (initially from random stage, then from answering for Zilla I).

Note this post:

I'll chalk you up to being a pushy townie for now, Llama, but IGMEOY.

Just establishing the pecking order

In all seriousness though, I dont think you really have much of a case on PP, and the attempt to justify the existance of one is coming off as scummy to me. More so when you mix in all the flavor and character-alignment pairing you have done.

Zilla I suspects Llama to begin with, Llama quips about "establishing pecking order." Considerable time is spent on Llama's part pushing for both Zilla I and Hybris, both of which reveal to be town. Llama does not vote Zilla I, though he makes a bigger case of her than Hybris.

Ooooh but "His earlier posts don't just go away" ooooooo!!!

And if I've learned anything, you CAN'T AFFORD TO BE WRONG.

Its like this to me; No matter what you say it can be used against you in the game. A bad phrased line, a horrible idea, or a scummy move is all fair game. Asking something to be ignored will never happen, and is scummier then the action that is in question at times. If we were able to 100% clear things from the record, scum could always get away with things just by apologizing, saying it was stupid, and moving on.

I dont think what you have done so far is a really townie game, but I dont think it really merits as many votes as you have, especially when compared with players like Hybris.

@pacman - AWOL is Absent Without Leave, just a way of saying not here.
@internet - do you have anything of merit to add to this game? Also can you explain your vote to me.
@people with randoms still - Why are you still in the random stage?
@non voters - Who is scummy to you?

A little bit of interesting, perhaps pertinent discourse from Llama from Day 1, considering "anything is fair game" (when it's not about Llama, anyway. If it's about Llama, then it's all null-tells and tunneling). Note the deflection to inactive players.

I dont really get the wolf votes here. The argument is there, but its a streach, especially since the wording that he used is pretty natural and I have used it (or similar phrases) as town quite a few times.

The move to wolf, especially as Hybris is continually more scummy, just is odd.

Also ironic considering his push on ZoneAce both Day 2 and today, and considering Hybris was town.

unvote, vote The Internet

This guy is just being willfully unhelpful and scummy. He says he has no strong feelings for the lynch, is looking to the deadline to end the day, yet is voting and not presenting a case. Its time to actually give some opinions or perish like the rest of the lurkers. When you are trying to end the day though you are the best lynch out of them though.

Here's the initial argument Llama makes against TI, even though his first reaction is calling both TM and TI scum. Basically, it's the "when is deadline?" question.

Llama, I'd like to hear why Charter/Hybris/Wolfram are less worthy of lynching than The Internet.

I may nnot be in the most logical state of mind at the time, but charter-wolf I really think are both being idiots. They are both now claiming that the other incorrectly called Hybris town and are trying to get the other lynched. Talking regualrly, I have called people town in this sense before, and think I called you town this way in this game.

Hybris has come back a bit after a lurker spell, and is starting to look more town. They still need to present a worth while case, but with the people who are being willfully unhelpful in this game, they pass Hybris in the scummy catagory from where I am right now. If no one goes for the TI lynch though, Hybris is still a valid move. I dont see any solid reasoning for a wolf/charter lynch.

Notice "they" pass Hybris, but Hybris is still #2. Begin irrational working to save Tony.

Charter isnt lurking...

A quick case on The Internet though, ironically it will have more content then all his posts combined.

TI right now still has his random vote out, which in itself is scummy given that further justification then the inital reasoning for the vote has occured. I have no real answer to the question "Why is TI voting MK?", which should never happen.

Apart from MK who is scum for being in another game with TI as far as I can tell, there is an interest with Zilla. Zilla is called suspicious for being aggressive early (but the vote is still on MK). Later TI takes a fence sitting stance on Zilla by liking what she is saying, but not being credible thanks to the mini-breakdown that occured. Right now TI has Zilla as "frustrated townie", which is the only read on anyone that has been expressed this entrie game.

Currently TI seems more interested on when the day is going to end, then actually doing any scumhunting of his own, or even commenting on the scumhunting that anyone else has done in this game. His vote is on MK right now when no case against her has been presented by him this entire game.

Not scumhunting to the extent that TI is normally is enough for a vote at this point in the game, when it is mixed with his wierd intrest with a deadline though, the vote becomes more of a no brainer to me.

@Charter - I still dont see it. How is it different then the other quotes that used the exact same phrasing that I pointed out?

Here's the beef against TI, and a lot of it seems not to be pointing things out but building them up; his vote on ManaKu, his lack of scumhunting, and, again, the deadline question. These are weird things to pick up on, it's as if he knew ahead of time that TI was scum, and just needed any excuse to have him thrown to the gallows. This is why it looks like a bus job.



Ah, here's a gem; a post that Llama is touting as scummy from Wolf now, and his initial reaction to it on Day 1.

@llama

If you answered my question to you earlier i didn't see it so sorry if i am repeating something you lready answered, but do you think there is a difference between TI's posts and lack thereof, and Xtoxm's posts?

xtoxm is at least giving us some thoughts. As much as I may disagree with his votes, there is some tangible things there that we can look back at later in the game. Maybe some of his reads being similar to mine help that a bit, but its mostly that he is actually contributing, even if it isnt to the extent that most others are.

He's trying to spin it now that Wolfram was "deflecting" from TI, when it looks a lot more like a townie, uncertain about their vote, wanting more clarification from one of the big pushers on why they should vote TI instead of Xtoxm. Llama's response is ethereal enough not to sway him, I'd say.

At this point in time we should not be trying to figure out who it is an alt of, or even commenting on why they are playing as an alt. It has nothing to do with someone being scummy or not so doesnt have a place in the game.

Some better topics of conversation would be

-Wolf/Charter arguement as wolf is now a top vote getter
-Zilla voting and unvoting TI in the same post
-Prodding the lurkers
-PP wagon gaining steam

Now to practice what I preach

@Zilla - Why did you feel the need to vote for and unvote TI in your last post without giving any real reasons for the vote?

If Tubby does end up being scum, I would take a lot of interest in this post, as Llama seems to be sticking up for Puta and throwing the notion that his wagon is gaining steam in as a token near the end. It's also focused on the wagon, not the ---

Woah, now I understand why he pushed for Tubby yesterday. It's entirely possible that was scripted beforehand, and that he wanted to "clear" Tubby with a scripted pressure to claim. It would explain Tubby's weird "hunch" thing making him vote with Llama today, and how his roleclaim is the most coherent thing he has to offer so far.

Tubby suspicion++.

Back to Llama, he focuses on the wagon on PP, not PP himself, and only cursory.

Still think that we should be lynching TI. I dont get the case on wolf (xtoxm as well) still, but soon enough that seems like it will be proven. While I dont really like all of what I have seen from PP, the point against CC is a decent one, and at least he is now being slightly helpful.

Thats just my two cents though, people are still letting TI get away with doing nothing and given next to no reads on players.

Here's where he gets really aggressive when people aren't voting TI enough for him, despite his only case against him being his unhelpfulness, an attribute just as easily a part of town playstyle as it is scum. This is especially confusing considering he takes that exact stance for why Charter is town.


There are a few posts where he grills TM over his position on Hybris, but they evidently are non-commital.

No. I'm a firm believer in the effectivness of OMGUS votes.

So why shouldnt we just kill you right now? TI is starting to do stuff, you are trying to be as unhelpful as possible

Ironic considering he does not vote for TM, until:

unvote
Vote TonyMontana

Talk, contribute, die. Your choice really. Keeping a vote on the leader with zero reasoning is a big no though.

As far as I see it, he's keeping his options open. The next post is what really gets me:

Knock out 2 birds with 1 stone. Look at mini 628 and you have scum meta on both Llama and myself. He was so "pro-town" in that game that he easily rode to engame and won it for us.

Heh, im always pro-town. I think im at 14 games that I am dead in and only was lynched in one.

Couple this with KMD saying he's matching his scum-meta. I think that's an important thing to note.

On Llama, I get that faint scum nagging feeling. There's this undertone of control in some posts, but that's faded recently, but that's also all the more worrying. I don't put it past him to be scum.

<3 If there is a undertone of control its because its what im striving for. I am much more comfortable when I have more control over a game, just because that way I can get people to listen to me.

I dont think the Hybris-TM connection is too great. The "slip" PP is voting TM for is pretty weak, especially compared to the other "slips" that have been discussed this game.

Note Zilla I picks up on this as well, also note his slow reversal of his stance on TM.

I'm

greased up deaf guy

, townie.

Would of prefered if this didnt happen untill people addressed the last part o my last post about voting you instead of TI. This compicates things a bit. Just to be sure though, thats a vanilla claim instead of just a pro-town one.

Ah, wow, yet another claim that makes him back off.




Okay, I don't have time to finish reading his posts right now, but I definately get the scum-playing-as-town feel from him. He knows how to do that, hence why even his tiny, tiny mistakes ought to make a big deal. I've been around the block a few times, and I know how town experienced scum players can look, and I'm pretty sure about him being one of those players.

[Zilla]

Weak sauce people.

Zilla, your posts in which you discussed flavour were bad. You shouldn't have done that. Many players said it is bad, with xtoxm perhaps the only exception. But still you did it. Bear the consequences

Unvote Vote Zilla

How in the hell were they "bad"? The flavor analysis was at least a step above what we were doing before, which was post-restriction analysis. There's a total of ONE post between my posts in question.

Llama, I could ask you what reason you had for voting Hybris earlier, before she "came to my rescue" by doing pretty much exactly what I would have done.

I'll let you know now that if I die and come up town, I'll be haunting you from the grave. Remember this town, please.

@ Porochaz: I see the implications there, but 1) she answered by quoting me directly, 2) I would have done the same thing, and 3) the question was in no way implicating me as scum, why would I need "defending"?

What makes Puta Puta so innocent that my voting of him is scummy?

I smell a wagon.

Well, I'm indeed haunting him from the grave... I just possessed someone to do it! XD

[Zilla]

1 TonyMontana - RF may have cleared in retrospect, but still played a scummy day 1. Day 2 was slightly better.

2 LlamaFluff - either manipulative town or manipulative scum, and a lot of intuition is telling me scum.

3 Kmd4390 - Strikes me as similar to Rest Fermata in playstyle, and would be VERY good scum if he was just camouflaged.

5 Acid Flux

pacman281292

- Pacman was meh in my book, Acid Flux started out good and went downhill fast.

6 CoheedCambria09 - He's still alive?? What?! There's not much to give reads on him, but I'm quite suspicious now, I would have expected him to be dead by now.

7 Elivs knits - After reading some posts through Day 1, I'm not liking him much. It helped him that Xtoxm flipped town, because I had them tied together in my mind, but rereading Day 1, he looks fishy, and I'm suspicious.

8 Zilla

kloud1516

Honestly, I didn't like the way Kloud played when I was Zilla I. Aside from that, I can't comment on myself :/

9 charter - Still completely up in the air about Charter; whatever he flips, he's not a very good player, he certainly hasn't been helpful.

10 tubby216

Puta Puta

- Puta was unbelievably scummy, but I don't know how much of it to hold against the position, and how much to hold against the person. Tubby hasn't been helpful, and his posts have been quite absent of any real evidence. It's possible his role is scum-aligned.

12 populartajo - My read on him fluxuates, I thought he was marginally scummy day 1, more scummy early day 2 and more townie by the end of day 2. All in all, I can't think of much to remark on him.

16 Porochaz - He's hounding Charter, but to what end? Another one I don't know much about.

17 ZONEACE

Nitro Styles wolframhart Greasy Spot

Talk about replacements. Llama's on his case right now, but after rereading day 1, I just don't see the case against the Wolf player. ZoneAce has been on Charter's case also, and is extremely abrasive to his attackers. I don't know how much I trust him, and his role has a chance of being scum as much as town. Regardless, I can't find much direct evidence of him being scum.

19 BlakAdder - Here's a gem. I don't like his infrequent posts. Unlike RF, his few posts usually read as scummy to me, and somehow he gets away with it. I'd be quite happy with a BA lynch at this point in time.


There's my game analysis; I'd like more information about Porochaz and Tajo, and I have negetive views of BlakAdder, CoheedCambria, Elvis, and Llama. I have positive views on KMD, and I did have positive views on RF before she was killed... :/ The rest I remain unconvinced on either way.

[Zilla]

EK should be female, sorry. Just, having Elvis in the name kind of sends the wrong message ^^;

[Zilla]

Llama OR Zone, EK, Blak, and Acid OR Coheed are scum if there are 4 more. Poro OR Zilla is SK. Tubby, TM, Charter, and Tajo are town.

Anyone want to disagree or argue with any of that?

I don't see what makes it conditional between me and Porochaz being SK, and I don't see what makes your town people actually town. I understand putting it between Llama or ZoneAce, but I'm not sure what makes you say either Acidflux or CC09 are scum.

I know it's pointless, but should we all just assume you're town then?

Also, if you say EK and Blak are pretty much confirmed scum, why not advocate their lynch? I'm supportive of BlakAdder being lynched. A little less so on EK, but I AM critical of her.

[Zilla]

Also, if Tubby and Charter are town, woe is us. :/

[Zilla]

I would like to know the founding of those opinions, especially why Porochaz and I are alternatives for SK. Is it something like if one isn't, the other is, or is it just that we are your two leading suspects and there is only one SK?

[Zilla]

I personally don't believe it very much, and never really considered faking a PR being inherently scummy.

I still see the case on EK, but I'm still more sure on BA than EK. If KMD's theory holds, BA and EK are both scumbuddies anyway. I'd rather lynch BA over EK at this point. I'd still rather lynch Llama over both of them, and CC is somewhere between BA and EK just because he is seperate from them both.

Thinking about Llama, he's been playing ethereally and unaccountably. I do attribute him to working hardest to push TI over TM, but the foundation of that argument and its execution seem strange to me, even in rereading, because TI hardly ever does anything directly to irk Llama, while TM ruffles Llama up a lot more. Other things I consider him responsible for haven't been town in my opinion; forcing three total claims and working to get Hybris lynched. The claims were Tony, Zone, and Tubby, by the way.

[Zilla]

I'm conflicted on the PR thing; I never really thought it was a PR to begin with considering the lack of reprecussion, but if it's a true PR with a true benefit, it might not be too bad to keep it secret. I feel like asking for the claim is a bad thing, but I don't trust it to start.

Really, does it matter if it's a real PR or not? All I can think is that if it's real, it's probably best not to disclose the full nature of it, and if it's fake, well, what good is hearing your cooked-up excuse? It's probably moderately believable anyway, and all it is is a giant glass of the Wine In Front Of Me.

[Zilla]

It really doesn't seem that restrictive... You only had to act like you were conducting an interview and throw in "Sources say" or "A viewer wrote in to ask:" before a lot of your statements or questions. :/ It actually seems like a pretty fun PR to me.

[Zilla]

Top story: Zilla still unconvinced about KMD's sincerity. The latest reports say she thinks the nightrole would probably have been worth it, and that it's not that hard to keep up. It seems she's attempting to demonstrate this now. Will she succeed in proving it's ease, or will she discover just how constrictive it is? More on this as it develops.

In other news, ZoneAce has more to account for than Charter's accusations today. It seems one "LlamaFluff" has taken his brand of scrutiny to ZoneAce. Viewers may remember Llama for being the force behind unmasking the greased up deaf guy known as Tony Montana, Bonnie, known as ZoneAce, and even our very own mayor, Adam West, who sources say goes by the street name "tubby." How will ZoneAce respond to this new challenge? More details later.

Now we cut to our "ask the audience" segment. Today's question is; Who's do you think is scum? Our station telephone operators are standing by.

[Zilla]

New information developing: KMD comes back with more concrete evidence. Zilla appears to buy this a bit more than his previous argument, especially considering the creative analysis involved in writing posts that way. Sources have yet to confirm if she has been swayed to believe him or not, and leading experts believe it's still entirely possible to be a well-fabricated lie. Other experts have called this situation "WIFOM".

Am I reading that right? Why-fawm?

Excuse me.

Later in our program, we will see how the rest of Quahog reacts to this development. But right now, it's time for Charlie, the dancing hippo!

*cue music*

[Zilla]

EBWOP: It seems our station manager never did book Charlie, so we'll have to improvise a segment for you.

An anonymous caller, identified only as Z, has a question she wants to air. The question is this. "ZoneAce, who are your prehipheral suspects?" We'll be contacting ZoneAce shortly to find out his answer.

[Zilla]

A developing conflict seems to be brewing between AcidFlux and Zilla over her unspecific accusation. This station wishes to provide fair and balanced coverage of the story, and so will be bringing you Zilla's side exclusively, as this station feels her analysis is fair and balanced.

Here's a montage of clips some of you may remember from a previous show.

FOS: AcidFlux

for putting tubby at what was assumed to be L -1 at an inopportune time.

Frak, at this point, I'm eager for factual information instead of generalized guesses. There's a lot of grey area in a lot of these posts.

And the swapping in/out of players makes it tough to get a read.

But then again, that in and of itself might be a clue...

Yes, we do have less than a week remaining.

AcidFlux, what do you mean it might be a clue? That post seems to have a lot of generalized guessing in it.

Now, here's a story that will tug at your heart strings.

Wow. I was going along the same lines as Llama at the beginning of the day, about TM being town cause TI was scum, but I just don't know anymore.

What I do know is that NS is scum though.

Is this a 'gut feeling', or do you actually have investigative evidence to support this statement?

Hey, guys Acid Flux has gone fishin'! Too bad he isn't going to catch anything.

I don't see how answering this is remotely protown...

And I don't see how Charter claiming he 'knows NS is scum' is anything short of a roleclaim, unless it's a gut feeling.

I'm not fishing. I'm asking for verification if Charter's comment was a role-claim or a gut feeling.

Either answer is acceptable to me. I just wanted to make sure I understood Charter's intent.

We're pretty sure the irony of the bolded statement is readily apparent to our viewers, but just to clarify, it's like saying "I'm not going on a picnic, I'm going to eat sandwiches on a blanket in the park."

Haven't seen anything yet to convince me to change my vote. However, Zone's tl;dr is a solid stand.

I'm not convinced that it's completely true, however, considering my own role.

At this point, I'm simply eager for some confirmed information, and

there's only one way to get that.

If I may, I'd like to point out the oddity that none of the other players seemed to question the content of this post.

FOS: AcidFlux

for putting tubby at what was assumed to be L -1 at an inopportune time.

Which was intentional on my part, as I've been saying for a while that I'm eager to end the day and get some actual evidence instead of conjecture. Once I saw a stronger possibility that Tubby was Town over Mafia, I unvoted (see the post directly above your own). And as I've had time, I've been rereading posts to get a better feel. It's like walking on eggshells in here.

And in response to RF: Responding to a veiled roleclaim and asking for clarification isn't rolefishing. Don't try and Samwise me for your own benefit. If I think someone is trying to roleclaim, then I want them to commit to a yes or no. Pussyfooting around and dancing around semantics isn't helpful. If you're going to put out allegedly solid info, then be prepared to support it.

I prefer to deal in definitive statements and actual evidence, not shadow politics. That's simply my gameplay style.

If you've been following the story, RF turned out to be none other than Stewie the cop. The jury is still out on whether she had anything on Acid Flux during this time. Acid Flux conduct was cited as "questionable" during this time, especially with his curt voting and quick unvoting of Tubby and his refusal to offer comments on the subject.

Let's see where this gets us:

Vote Hybris

This move was regarded as "highly unpopular" by our local opinion polls. Ratings show that his popularity fell, likely due to his non-committal bandwagoning nature, and exacerbated in hindsight with hybris being town.

Like I've said for the longest time: I simply want solid information. All the dancing around is getting us nowhere. Since the strongest argument is currently against Hybris, I'm anxious to see if there's any actual, factual substance to it.

I'm pretty well convinced that Tubby is Town. I'm nowhere at all convinced that Hybris is Town. Since these are our primary choices, I'm picking the one that most scummy to me. And since I'm posting from work, I have limited time & access. Therefore, the short post above.

ZONEACE, notice that I voted/fos Charter a long time ago. I'd rather vote for Charter than Hybris, but I don't see enough people going in that direction.

I'm not used to month long Days. In my other games, the Days last 72 hours, at most, barring a holiday.

In other words, I'm just weary and eager for actual results.

Feel free to spin that attitude as scummy.

And spin this, we shall!

I thought we'd established that there's a double voter (tubby) and a non-voter (FL), which made the Hybris vote higher than the Tubby vote?

And in any event, KMD's vote change made it 5 people voting for Hybris. So, even if I voted for charter, and even if there is no double-voter, that's still 5 on Hybris and 4 on charter.

I'll be honest here, unless I'm pretty convinced that a player is Town, I'm going to 'bandwagon' on whoever is closest to getting lynched, just to get the day over with.

I'm getting reports that this is generally considered "scummy behavior," and usually indicates someone who has no real investment in lynching someone unless it's their partner.

This just in from our eye-in-the-sky chopper reporter; Acid Flux appears to have been chasing Charter most of the time, but hasn't offered any reasoning for his action. His firsthand testimony on the issue:

Charter claims that he's 100% sure that NS is Scum. When asked how he is so sure, he gets rude & defensive.

My guess is that we got lucky yesterday and were teetering between two Scum choices.

He later backs down from this position in this clip from our December interview archive:

Sorry, Charter, if you'd said that when I asked the question, then perhaps I wouldn't have been suspicious of you. In my experience, when someone makes a '100%' claim, that's cause for discussion.

If you've been gunning for NS since Day One, then it's obviously a gut feeling, not a confirmed fact.

I'd like you to recap, if you would, what it was from Day One that has you convinced.

The next time he mentions charter:

Oh, and

FOS Charter

There is an interview with RestFermata later where he defends his rolefishing attempt on Charter, ultimately ineffectively. The next time he mentions charter comes from this clip we filmed as he was walking into his limosine.

ZONEACE, notice that I voted/fos Charter a long time ago. I'd rather vote for Charter than Hybris, but I don't see enough people going in that direction.

This completed the turnaround; investigative reporters are working on bringing you the latest on why Acid Flux suddenly had such strong conviction about charter, especially considering his lack of stated cause for FoS in the first place.

This concludes our segment, "Why Acid Flux doesn't look good." Join us next week for our interview with the Kraken!

[Zilla]

Shocking new segment hosted by spunky newscaster Gina Rogers called "What the hell!?" Gina?

vote zoneace

What the hell? Reasons, man, reasons! It's perfectly fine for you to throw your vote any which way you damn well please, but a post with nothing but a vote, on day 3? What the hell? Gina out.

That was Gina Rogers, in a segment we can't air on network television.

[Zilla]

As always, our station values integrity. I'm going to show our readers that we are certainly intense.

New information developing:

KMD

comes back with more concrete evidence.

Zilla

appears to buy this a bit more than

his

previous argument, especially considering the creative analysis involved in writing posts that way. Sources have yet to confirm if

she

has been swayed to believe

him

or not, and leading experts believe it's still entirely possible to be a well-fabricated lie. Other experts have called this situation "WIFOM".

Am I reading that right? Why-fawm?

Excuse me.

Later in our program, we will see how the rest of Quahog reacts to this development. But right now, it's time for Charlie, the dancing hippo!

*cue music*

The bolded pronouns reference KMD, and the underlined pronouns reference Zilla.

Coming up; "Third Person and You: How to Avoid Confusion"

[Zilla]

Okay, you win KMD, I can't keep it up when I actually have to directly engage in conversation...

It's not about making you accountable for Hybris' lynch, it's about your moves, and how you made them. You asked for why I thought you'd gone downhill after your entrance, I provided, and now you're voting me for it.

I don't like your extremely noncommittal approach you had to Hybris' bandwagon. Even if you removed yourself from it by deadline, you still had your name on it, at an inopportune time. You can say it's because you want information, but it reads much more to me like you'll go for any lynch as long as it's not a scum partner.

Since you're trumpeting around that your name wasn't on the list at the end of the day, it's entirely possible that's why you changed to Charter. You saw that Hybris was headed for the gallows either way, so you figured it'd be better to save your credit by not being on her in the final count. There's nothing to be said about your vote change because it didn't impact anything. If you had changed to Charter and he would have been lynched from the change, then there's something to be said.

Your reason for hounding charter still isn't founded.

[Zilla]

It's not about making you accountable for Hybris' lynch, it's about your moves, and how you made them. You asked for why I thought you'd gone downhill after your entrance, I provided, and now you're voting me for it.

You didn't just provide reasons, you orchestrated a virtual character assassination. You went overboard, intentionally taking quotes out of context, selectively omitting relevant pieces of discussion, etc.

The pot calling the china black? If anyone doesn't believe me, read his posts, read him in isolation, click the little white page on any of his context-sensitive posts and get a feel for what was going on at the time. You're more than welcome to draw your own conclusions.

I don't like your extremely noncommittal approach you had to Hybris' bandwagon.

Tough. Deal with it. In a game where votes can be changed any number of times, 'vote-fishing' is a perfectly legitimate tactic to get reactions.[/quote]

Woah woah woah woah! Vote fishing? Nobody said anything about that, least of all you. Taking that stance on your Hybris vote contradicts not only your prior reasoning, but also reasons you state in this post. That was blatantly not 'vote-fishing.' You didn't do any debriefing analysis, you just switched back to Charter.

Even if you removed yourself from it by deadline

News Flash:

I did.

I never said you didn't.

Additionally, it wasn't until ZONE reminded me that the deadline was fast approaching that I realized that. I hate game days that last this long. I know that's the style of game played here, but that's not what I'm used to. You can either accept that, or not.

I, too, come from the land of short days, where two weeks is usually the longest they possibly run, and games are usually done within a month. Even so, that doesn't explain your behavior at all. I'll elaborate on this here:

I'd rather get factual information sooner rather than later.

This is where it makes no sense. This contradicts your "vote-fishing" argument also. As far as game time is concerned, lynching someone earlier in real time does not give town some kind of 'information-per-unit-real-time' advantage. There's no need for speed in information except according to the game-clock, and game days. Voting to end a day earlier, "so we can get information faster," doesn't mean we get to jump right to the next day before night happens. We don't get multiple lynches before the deadline. This is crazy talk.

, you still had your name on it, at an inopportune time.

As I said, at the time, I'd lost track of when the day was ended, until ZONE pointed it out to me.

What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying that the deadline impacted your choice between Charter and Hybris? This only adds to my case that you didn't want your name on Hybris for political reasons.

You can say it's because you want information, but it reads much more to me like you'll go for any lynch as long as it's not a scum partner.

So, you're reading this as Charter and I are both Scum? And that I've been bussing him all this time? Clarify that, if you would. Unless, of course, asking you to clarify your statement is rolefishing & scummy.

I don't know where you get your ideas. I've said it before and you mistook it before as well. I'll try to phrase it differently; you don't care what townie we lynch as long as we lynch town.

Since you're trumpeting around that your name wasn't on the list at the end of the day, it's entirely possible that's why you changed to Charter.

No, I didn't even bring that up until you misrepresented the vote. You were the one to bring up the vote record, not me.

That doesn't change a thing. You paraded around that you weren't on Hybris at deadline, and I'm asserting that you weren't on Hybris at deadline just so you could say you weren't on Hybris at deadline because you knew she was town.

You saw that Hybris was headed for the gallows either way, so you figured it'd be better to save your credit by not being on her in the final count.

Read that again. Porochaz gave me a good reason to switch to charter, after I expressed that I'd rather vote for charter, but it seemed pointless. I changed my vote in case other people felt as I did and decided to switch from Hybris over to charter, and I said as much at the time.

And we believe you, why?

There's nothing to be said about your vote change because it didn't impact anything. If you had changed to Charter and he would have been lynched from the change, then there's something to be said.

So... because other people didn't change their vote away from lynching a Townie, that makes my vote suspect?

I don't know what you're reading, so I'll rephrase it; you were voting Charter specifically because he wasn't going to be lynched.

Here's the straight answer: Your looking for conspiracies where there are none.

The funniest thing about all of this is that it all stemmed from you asking me why I didn't like your posts. I gave you my rationale, and you fly off the handle about it. I'm perfectly willing to admit that not all of my 'conspiracies' have to be true, but that's just the point; there's enough of them that I find it hard to believe all of them are wrong.

My actions in this game have not been anywhere near as devious and intricate as you might think. I've been about 95% as straightforward as I appear.

I can't trust the sincerity of that statement. You haven't been putting in enough posts to warrant a 5% devious factor.

You know, I still suspect Llama, but you've turned me around on who I think we should lynch today.

Unvote: LlamaFluff
Vote: AcidFlux

========

Populartajo, I don't know how to feel about your reads that echo The Internet just a little too closely for my comfort. They're very vague and wishy washy. I do think this post will be telling when we know your alignment though, which at the very least is comforting.

[Zilla]

Alright, here it goes.
Yes, these have changed a little over time due to further rereads.

Top 3 Scum:
Tony Montana (general anti town play)
Charter (Pushing wolf lynch, posting suspicious comments, attempting to control lynches)
Xtoxm (mildly, if what others say is to be believed)

Top 3 Town:
populartajo
Zilla
Llamafluff

Questions:

To Charter

Why are you voting for me specifically? Are your reasons the same Llama's? Why do you consider Xtoxm town? Do you consider wolf's actions to have made Nitro scummy? Do you have any case for wolf/nitro beyond what you have previously stated?

To LlamaFluff

You previously said you though the TM wagon was moving to fast to be a town supported wagon, but the next page my wagon picked up 3 votes. Do you consider that to be moving fast? You have said my posts are unclear and wishy washy for suspects, and avoid major conversation. Why do you believe that does not apply to TM? What is your evidence that a double voter exists (other than outguessing the mode) and what is your evidence he has placed his vote on me? How is the reason for your case of me of TM (my actions vary, but TMs are always antitown) different from the too scummy fallacy? Do you still maintain that I began contributing as soon as you started a wagon on me, even though I did not begin contributing until pages after the wagon? What type of contributions from me will you not view as scummy (you view contributions when a lynch gains as scummy)? Do you view TM's offer to self hammer as scummy?

To CC

Why are you voting for me? Why do you change vote so often?

To Blackadder

Where were you between the wagon on wolf and the wagon starting on me?

To Zilla

What are your suspicions of your previous cases?

To Xtoxm

Why the change in post style from your meta?

To Tony Montana

Would you mind posting something somewhat large?

Possibly more questions later.

I can't get anything out of this post, but I figure it's something to look at. Zilla I did come up town. His three scum players, to me, were in an easy-to-push position at the time. The thing that bugs me about it is that he knows who his partners are, so he's going to treat them somehow differently than he normally would.

I'm really wondering if Llama/Tajo are meant to be defended in this post. There is no question Llama had some clout day 1. Tajo, on the other hand, I don't recall being all that protown.

I'm actually surprised KMD isn't on his list, since KMD was after the people on his scum list, and was generally in the same place on issues that Zilla I and LlamaFluff were for day 1. Perhaps his omission of KMD is important? I wonder what the motive of his questioning was, and why he asked those people those questions...

I figured this would be a good post to bring back up to look for connections. Personally, I'm having a very tough time finding them. During my reread of him, it seemed like he was defending both ManaKu and Zilla 1, but both turned out to be town and dead at the end of night 1.

[Zilla]

^ Are you saying the players he asked questions to are town based on that post or based on the list or based on play? Because I don't see anything that excuses BlakAdder or CC at this point, nor have I heard your opinion of them being town... that I can recall this entire game, actually. Of course you're free to prove me wrong on that :/

[Zilla]

For all his inadequacies, TI was pretty hard to read... :/ It might have to do with the political climate of the situation at the time as well.

[Zilla]

Llama, what's your call on AcidFlux?

[Zilla]

Xtoxm isn't going to get lynched.

unvote, vote: TonyMontana

@KoC: Internet has not done much aside from lurking. Tony has made appeals to emotion, contributed rather little, offered to self-hammer to avoid no-lynch (which wouldn't help anyway and just seems like an attempt to sound helpful while really depriving us of info gained from the hammer), and, though I could definitely be wrong about this, his only serious vote has been on Hybrid, and that was just a OMGUS vote.

I don't recall Internet offering to self-hammer, and he has been at least fairly insightful and has used his vote.

BA DID defend TI by voting TM. I don't know what you're smoking, Llama.

[Zilla]

He pushed Xtoxm, but switched to TM because Xtoxm wasn't going to make it to lynch. And then he argued that TI didn't do anything scummy. I think it's pretty clear here that he was trying to pull people off TI for Xtoxm when he was there, and trying to save him by voting TM. His final vote of the day was Tony.

I think he's pretty clearly scum.

unvote: Acid Flux

- still got my eye on you.

Vote: BlakAdder

[Zilla]

There aren't too many people left alive that were on Tony at the end of the day, and most of them have been town. I'm thinking scum had to have someone on Tony, and I'm most confident about it being BlakAdder. Tubby, I can also see.

Note Acid Flux does not vote at all, despite his later claims that he's always trying to get information and that he'd support any bandwagon.

You know, it's entirely possible TM is actually scum as well, and that's why we haven't been seeing scum on his case either... His claim was vanilla as "greased up deaf guy," and nobody seemed to question that. It's such a vague character that it's possible nobody would counter-claim because nobody was given that character in the first place. All the other characters we've seen have been much more recurring. I don't even recall a "greased up deaf guy" from the show.

[Zilla]

I'm still very solid on BlakAdder though, and AcidFlux and Llama are close seconds for me.

[Zilla]

Tell me why this NAME claim is being second guessed when

1) Name flavor should mean nothing
2) TM would of needed to fakenameclaim
2.1) When it still could easily be a character
2.2) When fake name claiming a major character would of been better

Ah, I'm in a bit of the wrong mindset here when I thought there was reason to lie about your character identity, but the point still remains that he just claimed as vanilla, an easy and safe scum claim. On part 2, however, fake name claiming a major character wouldn't "of" been better because someone would more likely counterclaim and he'd be caught with egg on his face. The point I was trying to make is that his claim isn't exactly solid.

Plus TM is town, see day one, see expected investigation from RF.

I don't consider day 1 proving anything at this point, but I did forget RF's breadcrumb. It's tough to think it would be anything else but that at this point, but there's always the chance that her investigation was tampered with.

[Zilla]

^ Wolf did do it a lot softer than BA though, BA was pretty hardcore about it, and actively advocated TM over TI, while Wolf seemed a lot more indecisive. I'm just saying it pays to make the distinction.

Oh, also, I just figured out by checking my replacement notes that RF did NOT investigate TM day 1, I can guarantee that.

[Zilla]

Take it how ever you want, you'll know what it means when I die.

[Zilla]

All I'd LIKE to say is that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I'd rather not claim so the mafia doesn't know whether it's a good idea to kill me or not. That way, they could think I'm trying to avoid being killed and waste a kill on me, or that I'm trying to entice them to kill me instead of a better target.

That's all I'm going to say on that for now, and I reassert that RF did not investigate Tony night 1.

I still think BA is scum, and in the off chance that he actually is town, I would more heavily consider Tony as also being scum, but this doesn't quite make sense in my view of things as they stand. Unfortunately, my view of things is also incomplete because we don't have information on a few key players, like Llama and KMD.

[Zilla]

Also, it's not hard to make the distinction between mafia-aligned and self-aligned. Mafia are trying to win as a group. Each member is partially expendable, and they may die for "the greater good." They also have a team dynamic to work with.

Self-aligned players don't have that luxury, and must win by themselves, for themselves. If they're gone, it's game over for them.

There's a distinct difference in what each position affords. Mafia have the blessing and curse of association, which means they are going to react differently to different players because they are either on their team, or not. Self-aligned are basically going to have the same kind of association streak as town, and in fact, can actively hunt scum during the day with impunity. It doesn't hurt their cause at all, and it builds town reputation. The only thing they have to watch out for is stepping on the mafia's toes too much and getting killed at night.

It pays to make the distinction between mafia and self-aligned players.

[Zilla]

To Llama: I don't think it's important enough to talk about until we have to consider Tony's alignment, and, like I said, I want to confuse the mafia as much as possible over my role so their priorities will be out of whack.

[Zilla]

We need to start calling these people: zilla1 and zilla2, KOC1 and KOC2. Are there any other reincarnated people?

I've always referred to my first incarnation as Zilla I, I support this measure.

[Zilla]

unvote
vote zilla

Yes or no, do you have any role based information to back up the assertion

Told you I'm not going there, and this is role-fishing.

[Zilla]

...

I too am scared that Llama might have been busing TI. I expect better logic from Llama than all this WIFOM he's been spitting out.

It's like he thinks that everyone who is town MUST have been on the TI wagon and everyone who is scum MUST have been on the TM wagon.

Personally I know that's not true.

...

She investigated somebody on TM's wagon.

Happy now?

[Zilla]

I'm still wanting to screw with mafia priorities, and really, information about me isn't going to help town at this point. When information about me helps town more than scum, that's the setting I'll provide that information in.

Llama, what is the importance of knowing whether I have a role? All I see is that it helps scum prioritize.

[Zilla]

I'm willing to lynch Llama, and he is more active than BA, who hasn't posted... all day. I'm still entirely sold that BA is scum, but I'm equally sold on Llama being scum.

unvote: BlakAdder
Vote: LlamaFluff

[Zilla]

I'll buy it for now, though Llama hasn't been too helpful if those kills are right. I'm pretty sure there is a vig in this game, so I doubt this is fake, but there's the off chance that it's a really bold move hoping the vig doesn't see it or hoping there is no real vig.

You know, though, it's entirely possible that there are two SK's...

Still, it's a rediculously bold move for something like that. Like I said, I'm sold for now, and I still think BA is scum.

unvote: LlamaFluff
Vote: BlakAdder

[Zilla]

Last vote count missed Tajo voting for Llama... My faith in the system is shaken!

EK may be on the right track as far as looking at Llama's wagon. I'm not ready to rule out two SK's, one claiming as a vig for town protection, but that's the only scenario I can give credit to.

Holy crap though, I did just have a wild and paranoid idea; what if the FCC can "censor" someone and prevent them from posting, and that's why BlakAdder hasn't posted? And, furthermore, what if they also have an investigative role, found out BA was the town vig, and had him silenced for today, and then Llama claimed vig and he's powerless to do anything against it, at least for today?

Of course, that's extreme paranoia, and Occam's Razor is more likely the case; Llama is vigilante, BA's either forgotten about the game, gone lurking, or hasn't been online for the day.

Anyway, I did want to say that it's highly likely Llama's not FCC, and that means there may be evidence in his bandwagon. There's equally chance that scum avoided the bandwagon so they could throw suspicion on the people who were involved as well. There's KMD, who I consider town though there is no real hard evidence either way. There's ZONEACE, with a history of OMGUS voting. There's porochaz, who had been advocating charter until the Llama case. There's tajo, who I haven't really been able to read. And there's me, though I can't analyze myself, but I can say that I'd been on Llama's case for a long time.

I do have to agree with EK that Porochaz, or "Prozac" merits some attention. The nature of the charter push seems to me to be a safe frame job, considering we're still basing that off of his ridiculous ploy day 1 and tunnel vision. Aside from the blind focus on the Wolfram position, he really hasn't been all that anti-town, but then again, he hasn't done anything else to judge, and that makes him hard to read.

I'm quite thinking BA-scum is indicative of Porochaz-scum, due to BA being a more obvious choice over Charter today, yet not voting him.