Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Meuh]

(I'm stealing something fire said, but like, I noticed it too)

Sooo are all of yall ignoring the fact Dunn was at e-1 and enchant didn't hammer that? Like from enchant's POV, dunn like has to be maf here.. Enchant didn't want to hammer Dunn? ok, so enchant thinks dunn is town. then who are the 3 possible names for scum?

meuh, meuh and meuh

Didn't think about that, but yeah, Enchant is agenda motivated here and it shows

[Meuh]

VOTE: Enchant sure

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

Not sure I really think Gamma is scum but I do think Enchant is, regardless.

[Meuh]

Gamma if you had to throw 3 names out right now and if they were all scum we insta won, who would those 3 be?

[Meuh]

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

The thing is that effort isn't really something you just assign players?
Like if scum ended up with none of the players in the game putting a very high amount of effort in, that doesn't mean suddenly one of them is going to change their playstyle for that purpose.
Scum might just be significantly losing rn, who knows? I don't see why we'd make the assumption they weren't.
It's optimal for scum to have high effort players yes but no one in the history of mafia has ever played a game optimally.

[Meuh]

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

The thing is that effort isn't really something you just assign players?
Like if scum ended up with none of the players in the game putting a very high amount of effort in, that doesn't mean suddenly one of them is going to change their playstyle for that purpose.
Scum might just be significantly losing rn, who knows? I don't see why we'd make the assumption they weren't.
It's optimal for scum to have high effort players yes but no one in the history of mafia has ever played a game optimally.

You're right about the *effort* in general being more player-based than alignment-based a lot of the time

But if scum is all in <Enchant/Fey/Dunn/you> then I think they've set themselves up to lose by not having one player bus convincingly or make some sort of claim shakeup to try to salvage the game here, gorilla I've had a strong town read on the whole game and has made a likely suicidal claim of bodyguard, Cakez doesn't make sense as scum with my two strongest scumreads of Fey/Dunn, and Val I guess I am overlooking a bit because of the traffic Analyst claim fitting tbh? Fey/Dunn/Val does make sense too tbh, I just haven't given it really any thought until now since them both claiming PRs today made it much more likely that one of them gets elim'd in the near future.

Okay but look at that pool.
I am town
Fey and Dunn were seemingly just not around near EOD
Enchant literally can't bus convincingly based on playstyle

So... yes I think ordinarily they would try something of the sort, but within the circumstances? It sounds pretty much impossible

[Meuh]

meuh, while you're here and purely out of interest, it's not game relevant -- are you an alt?

~Rhyme

Nope! I'm a wholly unique person
Don't have any alts or hydras of my own yet, either

[Meuh]

Dunn also works fine as a lim, and I'd go back there

[Meuh]

I kind of just want the day to end at this pont

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

Will respond later I have an exam rn

[Meuh]

Btw the exam went well, though I'm still passing the class either way!
It was my last exam too, yay

so meuh.

sometimes her posts feel genuine and i want to townread her, but i think there's just a few things that i really have trouble getting over and i keep coming back to them. these are the biggest things for me:

1) the start of d2 push on gorilla. its already been pointed out how strange it was, saying that gorilla looks paired with marci and then voting gorilla. but with marci flipping scum i think it might just straight up be tmi. newer scum have that issue a lot i think, where they look for fake associatives with their scum partners in order to tie them together but do it before the partner even flips. the reasoning in 1365 for why she's going after gorilla instead of marci is p weak and her whole response to the pushback on it kind of feels like she realizes she messed up and is going into damage control mode.

2) her progression on marci. 162 and 207 feel blatantly partner-y to me. kind of awkwardly talking around a read, and saying "eh ill have a better read later". for people who to my understanding are friends and have played together a lot, it doesn't feel like a natural interaction at all. she starts off with more of a scumlean, but spends the whole day voting other wagons, quickly finds a weak reason to TR marci in 310, gradually townreads more and more, and then in 822 says the marci lim is bad and votes the counterwagon.

then early d2 she quickly shades baltar for questioning Marci in 1162, says marci is +town for LLD's death in 1176 and 1190, and then in her readlist in 1233 has a much more noncommittal, questioning read of marci. i think this has significant scum motivation bc if someone isn't looking closely, they'll think she just kinda nullreads Marci and is willing to consider her scum, but her action that she is taking in the thread is all counter to that. she is continually pointing out reasons Marci could be town, and not reasons why she could be scum, as if she is arguing against what she already knows to be true.

she then turns hard onto marci in posts like 1289. here she is acting like she is suddenly now convinced marci is scum and and is pulling out every reason she can find. but the thing that makes this feel like it's just planted for cred is that there's zero followup. she pivots this into the gorilla/marci s/s and stays on gorilla. then she hops around other wagons, never voting marci, until finally at the end when it's hard to avoid. the thing that makes this scum is that it isn't accurately recreating a town mindset. if she truly did suddenly find marci as scum and had all of these good reasons, to the point where she's preflipping her onto gorilla, why doesn't she ever contribute to the pressure there? why is she continually pushing other wagons? why does the read on marci seem to come and go in her mind based on whatever is convenient to push at the time? it's just not town

3) still think her play around lavar was just a straight up pocket attempt. i don't really see any way that interaction was pure. i don't think this will be very convincing to anyone else but it seriously stands out to me and it is something that i can't really get over personally

so uh yea i think i want to go back here

VOTE: Meuh

I'm not answering this in an orderly way because I wanna let my thoughts flow better, so it's a bit of a cluster

So with (3), are you specifically talking about the point where I voted with him? Tbh I think part of the reason why it skewed me so much is that it humanized him a lot in my eyes, which I really liked. I'm kinda interested in what you think the point of it was, though? Like out of all people, why would I pocket someone I voted for and who was a lim candidate? Feels like I'd be doing better pocketing anyone else
Like look at the way I interacted with Bell for example
I feel like I mentioned several times I was annoyed with him, while still stating often my townread on him. But I never used this read to approach him in a way that was pocketing. (I don't think I interacted much with him at all)
I don't really see how the way I interacted with others (pissing off plenty) is an angle you think would be one scum!me takes. Gorilla, VPB and I'd even say you, Marci and Kovu seemed kind of annoyed with me. If you look at my last scum game, it's very passive, by the books gameplay. Votes not moving often, basic stances on the game, not delving into pre-flip associations, townreading most people. Because I come up with a lot less wild ideas and I do less 180s when I'm not paranoid about who scum are and not genuinely analyzing the game. Those things come from me when I have passion in my reads, when I get invested into them.

I feel like I've talked about the points in (1) in depth. I felt like my reads were inaccurate and the stars seemed to align on Marci and Gorilla, so I got very passionate about it all. I do think my response to the pushback doesn't look great but that's largely because I took it personally. A lot of the pushback on it felt like it was more about me sucking than about the actual read and it felt pretty terrible. May or may not have cried from that + being high emotion from irl stuff, but meh. First half of day 2 I did not enjoy in the slightest.
(2) Reading Marci has always been and is still a bit weird for me. It's not particularly enjoyable, and it feels like walking on eggshells sometimes because she's a friend of mine and I don't want to make the game worse by having her all wrong. (Which I think I've done before) I still love having her in the game thoug <3. Broadly speaking sure I guess people would be more eager to read people they know well but that's not something that can be transposed in all of these sorts of situations. My friendship with Marci isn't a copy+paste of every other friendship on the site.
I'm trying to read her more and treat her less in a different way because I think I'm good enough at reading her at this point, but yeah. Marci this game early on I didn't like the push because of who was on which wagon, not finding the points against Marci particularly compelling and wanting to sort her later, with flips.
I think I have this bad habit of simply dropping my thoughts on individual posts rather than the broader game someone is playing. This makes my reads harder to follow and it applies to how I was feeling about Marci. Occasionally one of her posts particularly stuck out to me, and I commented on it. Sometimes they were town indicative things, sometimes they were scum indicative. Marci's early day 2 felt horribly unnatural and my perspective on her had shifted significantly at this point. Early day 2 was also a spring cleaning of my perspective on the game so I can understand why it looks unnatural to an extent.

Idk defending myself is weird to do. I'm just kinda wondering, some things I've done have undoubtedly been odd, I play in odd ways. But do you, and others who are questioning my alignment, really think I make more sense as scum than as a townie? Do those odd things get explained away with a red role card? Am I motivated by an agenda? Do these things outweigh the moments where you've read one of my posts and thought "yeah, she's a townie"; which I assume has happened to several of you at this point? (It's happened to me with several people in this game) I think I've spewed my towniness in my posts at this point.

Imo scum have 2 ways to approach this day:
1. Bus a partner for long-term benefit
2. Defend their partners and get a mislim
With the way I've been voting and the fact I'm largely interested in following conf/likely town to make the game progress, is an agenda being fulfilled?

and with the way I voted for Marci and was the one who ignited that string of votes, why would I do it that way when partnered with her?? Why would I vote for her without that much conviction? If it was coordinated why is it so mellow? The answer is that I wasn't that sure about her alignment, because if I was scum I'd either defend her to her last breath, or I'd bus her. No wishy-washy stuff. Uncertainty is something I've had about my reads at every step of this game.

Ultimately mislimming me isn't terrible because it still narrows the POE, but I'm still a townie and limming townies tends to not be good.

[Meuh]

The exaggerated perspective of annoyance probably comes from how much I just wasn't enjoying day 2 for a while, I thought I was frustrating everyone

I also generally lost passion for the solve because the reception for it was terrible
Which I guess maybe isn't the best way to go about things, but also if everyone tells me a read is bad, I'm gonna have to reconsider.

I don't really have much else to say, tbh. If I do I think it'll just be going around in circles.

I do wonder if Kovu or Gorilla have anything to say though. and what Gorilla's issues with my play today are.

[Meuh]

Ouch yeah that post isn't great.
860 combined with 441 feels more like setting up mislims over flips he's already aware of being green or red.
I'm curious, has Cakez made any of these sorts of statements that have turned out to not be applicable? If his only instances of linking people together like this have been to link me to Marci if she flipped scum (which she did) and shade 2 now conf town and 2 likely town if Lavar flipped green (which he did), it's concerning.

[Meuh]

VOTE: SirCakez
Bad vibes smh

Also @Fire I didn't really grasp that sort of nuance when it was happening. It was more of an emotional reaction than a logical one

[Meuh]

Maybe Dunn's town and this is like Enchant/Cakez/hidden wolf
I wonder if Fey bussing Cakez is like an actual possibility or if that wouldn't make sense regarding her push, I should check it out again

[Meuh]

I think this has been commented on before but Fey's push on Cakez is weird

Like she doesn't seem to particularly care about him or find him scummy. She even seems to townlean him in 1178.
Then she mentions him being set in stone on Marci as something scummy?

His iso seems pretty set in stone on Marci too for like the entire game, bussing probable.

Like this post makes sense if Fey

already

scumreads Cakez, as a way to communicate she doesn't think his read on Marci stops him from being scum.
But this is the first scummy thing she points out about him??
It's a bit perplexing
Then it's Marci's scumread list that convinces her even more.
Both of these reasons feel complementary if that makes any sense? Like they're points that enhance an already existing read but the roots of the read on Cakez is never really communicated.
B

[Meuh]

Somehow accidentally sent that post early

(...)But also she seems genuine a good bit of the time today so ???
I don't really think she should be limmed today
Probably should be Enchant or Cakez

[Meuh]

I will not be voting cakez out here. I believe the pool of scum is in Val/Meuh/Dunn/Enchant/Gamma.
Like all yall voting cakez talk as if you know he's flipping town, like, he's gonna flip town, then you're just gonna go "he was bad." "not my fault"

???
How do you get that impression from these votes more so than from other votes

[Meuh]

I'm fine with consolidating on anyone within the POE that isn't me

[Meuh]

UNVOTE:
Kinda wanna sheep R&R so I hope they're around soon

[Meuh]

Can we just get like a Dunn lim through and point our invictus in the POE?

It's unlikely we don't flip any scum that way

[Meuh]

Maybe Dunn's town and this is like Enchant/Cakez/hidden wolf
I wonder if Fey bussing Cakez is like an actual possibility or if that wouldn't make sense regarding her push, I should check it out again

Can we just get like a Dunn lim through and point our invictus in the POE?

It's unlikely we don't flip any scum that way

Note the maybe
I don't have anyone to bounce my ideas off of in private, sadly, unlike about half of the players in this game
Also the plan I just mentioned proposes an invictus shot following your lim, which is even more potential to hit scum. (I think you flip red at this point anyways)

You've generally interacted with me weird this game I feel but maybe that's me being self-absorbed.

[Meuh]

Sigh.

I’m sorry.
Gorilla, Rhyme, meuh, Fire. Tell me who you want to be on and I’ll go with it.

meuh or fey, i guess. i don't actually think cakez has been towny at all lately so id be fine with him too. kinda don't want dunn anymore, enchant is fine

VOTE: Fey
Let's just get something through, please

The Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-21 01:00:00).

[Meuh]

I will self-hammer if it comes down to it. Better than nolim.
This day has been frustrating and the fact we can't coordinate a lim with 2 conf towns and 2 almost universal townreads is ???
Idrc at this point let's just narrow the POE and move on, hopefully with 2 new flips and traffic analyst results to help out

[Meuh]

VOTE: Fey

That's the exact opposite of sheeping RR, here.

I'm not sure I trust your motives anymore, but if you are actually are unaligned and your objective really is just to get someone other than yourself in PoE flipped here so we can move on, I would suggest SirCakez is your best bet.

Yeah Fey's significantly less appealing of a vote because of RR's feelings on her, I'd rather lim someone else. But no one's getting limmed without pushback here, as Gorilla pointed out.

Does SirCakez have a lot of momentum still? If so I'll gladly vote for him, sure VOTE: SirCakez
I was moreso looking for some sort of decision from the group Bell's proposed because town unity is fun, and looked at what Fire was thinking

Prism must hate me for constantly changing my votes

[Meuh]

I'd gladly sheep RR if they existed, I trust their judgement more than anyone and I think they could actually unify us since they're confirmed.
..but deadline's in like a day and a half and they aren't here, so we should probably coordinate

something

Cakez does sound significantly better than Fey so I do hope there's enough momentum there

[Meuh]

Wait Val by "unaligned" do you mean "not aligned with the mafia"/"has no agenda" or "third party"? Because to make it clear, I'm a townie. Not sure if third parties could even exist in this setup

[Meuh]

Like I would gladly follow a conftown or likely town leader but no one's really leading so ???
Out of the 4 conf town or near universal townreads there's:
-One who isn't really around
-One who seemingly has little to no confidence in his reads; but proposed a group to make a decision, that clearly is not going to make one
-Two who are voting for me

So like I'm not sure what you expect me to do at this point, this gamestate sucks and we should absolutely be doing better right now. It's disappointing because seeing Marci flip scum gave me a bunch of confidence in us just easily sweeping the mafia, and that confidence has been crushed more and more as the day has gone on. I wish VPB or Luke was still around

Pedit: Legitimately just kinda forgot where the votes were and I was focused on the pool presented by Fire
To me Cakez is weird to read here because comparatively to say Dunn, he's townpinged me more but also scumpinged me more.
It's conflicting
I'm 100% down for his lim though, let's do it please

Lim Cakez lim Cakez lim Cakez lim Cakez

[Meuh]

avoid what I believe is still largest wagon

Pretty sure you, Dunn and me are the only ones voting Cakez at the moment, the largest wagon was the one on me I believe? (Gorilla, Fire, Kovu)
So I'm not even sure this is an accurate assessment of the game state and it's not really the one I had when voting for Fey.

[Meuh]

Gorilla is

[Meuh]

Who do you consider to be scumreading Gorilla, and why did you distinguish that slot from the other two also voting voting?

Are you scum reading gorilla?

Presumably your point with that post is you started a new wagon on Fey (nobody was voting her, I've just gone back to answer that question myself) because you didn't feel like there was anyone you could really sheep; correct?

To me, everyone falls into 4 categories

Conf town

Bell, RR

Very likely town besties

Fire, Kovu

Have a significant chance of flipping scum but should not be limmed today due to being less suspicious than those in the limpool and/or because they likely will have their alignment be resolved through mech play

Gorilla, Val, Gamma

Limpool

Cakez, Enchant, Dunn, Fey

So that's why Gorilla's distinguished from Fire and Kovu, he doesn't exist in the same space in my mind.
Also isn't Enchant literally voting for him? I know Enchant is to be taken with a grain of salt, but still.
Plus I have my own doubts about him, I'd say Gamma flips scum more than you or Gorilla, but based on play Gorilla's scummier than you.
The only thing making me think you might be scum more often than Gorilla here are the claims. Protective being real sounds more likely than another information based role. (Though imo 1-shot cop + FN + traffic analyst is not impossible in the slightest)

You might be correct - I didn't go back and count, hence why I said 'I believe'.

How many people were voting for Fey?

Yeah, I don't think you were deliberately overstating the Cakez wagon to go after me, I just felt it was relevant to point out because it seems to be at the root of that point you made against me.

I know you already mentioned 0 people were voting for Fey, but that's not particularly relevant to me tbh. No one other than myself had more than 2 votes so there weren't really any wagons set in stone. I think looking at who people were/weren't willing to lim through their words is much more significant than just looking at vote counts and nothing else when only 2/7 votes needed were on anyone I was considering. Because of all of this, I don't think a lack of votes made Fey and unviable lim by any means.

[Meuh]

Anyone else thinking Enchant is scum here? I don't really see a world where they aren't at this point

VOTE: Enchant yay!
This is good timing because Cakez' last few posts look good
I think Dun flips scum slightly more often than Enchant; but the point about an Enchant lim needing to happen at some point is very true.

Pedit: <3 BFFs

[Meuh]

Who are these questions directed to

[Meuh]

Just questioning.

Why not on Day 1?
Why you advocated to not vig me?
And many other questions tbh.

1. I feel like at this point we should be more oriented at narrowing the POE and less looking for info from flips, like we were doing earlier in the game. We have a red flip and we've found our footing in the game, now's the time to do it. Late enough that we've gotten a good bit of info already and early enough that we don't have to sort you in the endgame
2. That's not something I particularly considered but it sounds like a bad idea. By vig pew pewing you instead of just limming you, you get an invictus shot. If you're scum that invictus shot likely gets pointed at whoever any mafia would be invictusing, if you're town I still don't trust you to shoot correctly. So you're not a good vig option.

What am I, exactly?

You are a user of the internet forum Mafiascum.net going by the pseudonym of Val89!
No but really I'm not sure what you're asking here?

[Meuh]

Effort is what matters!

[Meuh]

Also TMI on me being town?

[Meuh]

VOTE: Meuh

Whole idea "Aw you would't shot right anyway" is coming from anime avatar, who don't even know who can be scum this day and just points in random directions every 5 min.

It's outrageously hilarous.

Also TMI on me being town?

Yes, not writing "Probably" is incredibly scummy.

[Meuh]

because usually when you're town you are actually proactive on occasion and here i don't feel like you care about finding scum

your votes on fey and gorilla seemed to be just bc you disagreed with their claimed PR usage

One of claimed PRs is scum 100% change my mind.

Speaking of, are you going to claim your PR at some point?

I thought that post was a joke on the fact that the invictus mechanic means pretty much everyone is technically a “PR”

[Meuh]

HOW did no scum die

Looks like my theory was right
VOTE: Gorilla
Not protecting Val is a scumclaim

[Meuh]

I still think Dun is scum so I’ll have to recheck Gorilla’s push on him yesterday, I’m curious if it looks like bussing at all

[Meuh]

Looks like my theory was right

which theory?

The Marci/Gorilla scumteam one

[Meuh]

I still think Dun is scum so I’ll have to recheck Gorilla’s push on him yesterday, I’m curious if it looks like bussing at all

i don't think dunn and gorilla paired is very likely due to the way the luke situation played out

Why is that? I can’t say that part of the game particularly stuck to me

[Meuh]

If you think I counter-claim my own partner's fakeclaim to get her elimmed then out myself a day later, that's on you I guess. It should be clear enough I'm not scum here if you stop to think rather than making blind guesses about mechanics.

(No, I don't have a good answer for why I was blocked and not Bell for instance).

Wait why would Bell ever get blocked here?

Pedit: Kovu is 0% scum and Fire has a chance of being scum, yeah

Me and Dunn being scum together sounds so funny actually

Also I get clinging on my read on Marci but also I have like nothing else to say on the topic I’ve explained it like 17 times

[Meuh]

i just don't think they're paired

and why can’t we both be town?
Like I get thinking we’re not S/S but I’m not following your logic

[Meuh]

I think Cakez’ play near EoD was pretty townie so I was kinda surprised at the invictus shot but also it’s not a terrible hero shot so whatever
I think Dunn or Fey was a better shot though

Also @Gorilla I just didn’t want day to end early
I wanted to push Dunn again later but Fire was ruling him out in that one list and I wanted some sort of compromise so I voted somewhere else. I think I made it pretty clear I just wanted some sort of unity and if you look at the game fmpov I don’t really see why this doesn’t reason with you
Can’t say I’m really that torn up about Enchant being limmed either way

Pedit: Okay, you’re either scum or forever tunnelled on me, I don’t think there’s a point in engaging with you about my own alignment at this point
I by no means have played well this game so ig I can’t fault you if you’re town but this just feels sad
Tbh I think I’m more frustrated at myself than at anyone else at this point because I feel like I’ve been on the right track several times this game and just ended up off course and it’s infuriating

@Fire Oh with the last sentence before that made me think you thought we were T/S and that was more iffy to me. Makes more sense

[Meuh]

At this point we have 3 lims and 2 Invictus shots right?
Maybe killing me sooner rather than later is better because I feel like my mere existence is gonna derail us
But also 75% accuracy after that is not something I expect to happen
Blegh
Are we just doomed

Pedit: Idk if you’re scum anymore I have no clue
Rber would make the setup more balanced considering the roles we have confirmed
I’d rather not be mislimmed but idk what you want me to do
Like you haven’t engaged with anything I’ve said to defend myself iirc so it doesn’t really feel like you’re actually trying to sort me
But also maybe you’re just painfully tunnelled town
Bg claim is kinda nonsensical for scum to make

Spoiler: Don’t read this if you want to be in a good mood

Why didn’t I push him myself?? What nonsense???
HOW DO YOU EXPECT ME TO LEAD A WAGON???? WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYBODY FOLLOW ME??? HUH???? WE WERE CLOSE TO DEADLINE AND I LISTENED TO THE ONE PERSON WHO COULD BE A TOWN LEADER WHO ACTUALLY HAD ANY INPUT ON WHERE TO VOTE?? WOW WANTING TO NARROW THE LIMPOOL IS SO TERRIBLE. LIKE WOW I’M SO SCUMMY FOR TRYING TO CREATE SOME SEMBLANCE OF UNITY??? I WAS TRYING TO YOU KNOW, “HEY GUYS THERE’S NOT MUCH TIME LEFT MAYBE ONE OF THE 4 PEOPLE THAT MOST TOWNREAD SHOULD PUSH SOMEWHERE” CAUSE NOTHING WAS HAPPENING??? WHAT’S THE POINT OF ME PUSHING ANYWHERE WHEN I DON’T HAVE MANY PEOPLE’S TRUST AND PEOPLE ARE SO VEHEMENTLY DEFENDING EVERYONE IN THE LIMPOOL, AS YOU EVEN SAID YOURSELF. YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF EVERYONE SHIELDING SCUM AND WHEN I TRY TO INCITE SOME TRUSTWORTHY PERSON TO DO SOMETHING WHICH WOULD SOLVE THAT PROBLEM YOU CALL ME SCUM OVER IT????

Okay yes VOTE: Dunn here you go let’s vote for scum

[Meuh]

Meuh, I'm going to give you a chance here. Hopefully I haven't annoyed you too much with my ranting and you're still willing to accept an olive branch.

I'm not going to talk about you or your read on me. These are obvious dead ends.


What are your reads on other players in the game? I don't care if you think I'm 100% confirmed scum, I want to hear what you think about other people.

Okay don’t click on the spoiler tag then <3
I’m also willing to work with you because I feel like you’re just tunnelled

Pedit: NOOO I FEEL BAD NOW
It’s ok it’s ok
I really needed to get that out of my system though

As for reads:
I see no reason to scumread Gamma here, but also I don’t strongly townread him. Fey is a big ? and tbh I would do anything just for a sliver of insight from the almighty R&R.
Dunn is scum just in like every way and if he isn’t I need to find a new career
Kovu is the towniest townie to ever town
I’ve started feeling mild doubts about Fire I don’t remember exactly when? Like somewhere between mid day 2 and the start of this day. Which sounds terrible considering the shade you’ve just cast upon him but meh
Before then I’ve just kinda been defaulting to “oh but 1500 post neighbourhood” which like fair but where tf else is scum??
Who else is in the game
Bell is Bell

Wait is that really it???
Ig it’s Dun and then 2 people in {Fey, Fire, Gamma, you}
I’d default to Dun/Fey/Fire at the moment tbh
The idea of neither of you or Fire being scum seems kind of insane to me at this point
Dun/Fey/Gamma does not really make sense
Maybe Dun/Gamma/Fire
Any way you cut it I think Dun’s scum so let’s please just finally lim him

[Meuh]

Hmm yeah the Marci wagon is interesting

marcistar
(1)
Gammagooey (497)

marcistar
(7)
Gammagooey (497), gorilla (701), VP Baltar (702), Datisi (703), fireisredsir (713), SirCakez (717), LavarManos (775)

marcistar
(3)
Gammagooey (497), Datisi (703), SirCakez (717)

(and then no Marci votes on the next count)

Pedit: Ope yes that's me!

Gamma stayed on Marci alone for a while and idk what exactly it means
It's noteworthy that the order of people jumping off of the wagon is this. (Might be slightly inaccurate but I can't be bothered to dig into people's ISOs for a single vote)
Gorilla (790), VPB (798), Fire (800)
then
Lavar (950), Datisi (962) Gamma 1022, Cakez 1034

If there were people in charge of dismantling that wagon, they're Gorilla and Fire.

[Meuh]

you 100% know better than this.

Why though
Like why is this an assumption you're making here, she's clearly not that engaged with the game

[Meuh]

Gorilla/Fire/Dunn ggez

Pedit: your tone was 100% weird there

[Meuh]

Every single one of my scumreads is getting hard shielded by people and it is getting to be incredibly tiresome. I will try to find a working compromise but if that's not possible I'm going to mentally check out of this game.

Sigh.

I’m sorry.
Gorilla, Rhyme, meuh, Fire. Tell me who you want to be on and I’ll go with it.

I'll do whatever. Every single target is being met with utterly absurd resistance, so it makes me feel as though there's very little point in trying anymore. I'm frankly sick of it.

At this point I'd rather just let someone in the POE dictate the elimination, with the agreement that if they're wrong everyone should invictus them.

VOTE: Dunnnstral

This game isn't worth expending effort on.

I will be 0% surprised if this flips town regardless but at this point I consider it acceptable for game health.

This town fully deserves to lose for how it's played. The towns have either been absent and ineffectual, or have been hard shielding mafia. It is literally impossible to kill scum given the way people are playing.

If we actually manage to kill another scum from invictus, please come back to this day and kill whoever was shielding them as policy.

This 100% has "I am actively trying to bus my scum partner but the town won't even let me" vibes
Gorilla placing a vote on Dunn in the middle of the Enchant wagon while he made little to no effort to actually push Dunn is super weird, why didn't he do anything to make that lim happen earlier on in day 3? Like he did place a vote there but after the wagon died down he just didn't really do that much
and then he complained about me not pushing Dunn while scumreading him when he also saw Dunn get shielded by others?
I'm kind of perplexed

Even if he townreads Enchant there it's confusing why he was so unhappy with the wagon on them? Like Enchant was finally someone people could settle on, which considering what he said earlier should be a positive to him? But instead he makes sure to take a town!Enchant stance and mention Dunn being scum again so we make sure he doesn't support the mislim!! TMI TMI TMI TMI TMI

Also Gorilla seemingly is super disappointed nothing's happening and we have no unity as a town while also playing the least aggressively he has the entire game. It feels more like "wow this town is shit" than "wow, I'm so sad this town that I am a member of is doing poorly".

Dunn/Gorilla doesn't seem that unlikely to me
Though ig I'd have to look over their day 2 interactions
Though ig preflip associations bad

Also the "if we actually manage to kill another scum from invictus" is wild to me because we still had 3 invictus shots left and a lim pool Gorilla was actually satisfied with??
Like I don't remember his thoughts on Cakez, but I think he was iffy on Fey and also actively scumreading me and Dunn???
So considering the limpool we had wouldn't he think we'd invictus scum at some point? I think there's a mismatch there
2828 feels like a very scum pov post too

[Meuh]

Also @R&R
second part of it is about teams but there's also just straight up reads

As for reads:
I see no reason to scumread Gamma here, but also I don’t strongly townread him. Fey is a big ? and tbh I would do anything just for a sliver of insight from the almighty R&R.
Dunn is scum just in like every way and if he isn’t I need to find a new career
Kovu is the towniest townie to ever town
I’ve started feeling mild doubts about Fire I don’t remember exactly when? Like somewhere between mid day 2 and the start of this day. Which sounds terrible considering the shade you’ve just cast upon him but meh
Before then I’ve just kinda been defaulting to “oh but 1500 post neighbourhood” which like fair but where tf else is scum??
Who else is in the game
Bell is Bell

Wait is that really it???
Ig it’s Dun and then 2 people in {Fey, Fire, Gamma, you}
I’d default to Dun/Fey/Fire at the moment tbh
The idea of neither of you or Fire being scum seems kind of insane to me at this point
Dun/Fey/Gamma does not really make sense
Maybe Dun/Gamma/Fire
Any way you cut it I think Dun’s scum so let’s please just finally lim him

[Meuh]

Also Gamma mentioned doing a mass-claim earlier and I'm good with that. I don't think it hurts us in any way and it restricts what the mafia can do moving forward. Unless anyone has any issues with it, I'm claiming in exactly 6 minutes and 27 seconds.

[Meuh]

I'm a Tesla Fanatic! (yes, I timed it)

[Meuh]

Helloooooooooooooo

[Meuh]

Meuh, who are you thinking is town right now and why?

Well I think you're town and I'm willing to just accept the loss if you aren't.

Tbh I'd say my second biggest townread here is Gamma. I don't recall their interactions with Marci particularly looking S/S. Also, none of Gamma's content actually looks scummy to me, and they have a few moments I think look good. Things like insisting to not vote until everyone checks in, or asking for a massclaim.
It's small stuff but I like it.

[Meuh]

I was eating a popsicle
tbh I forgot about Gamma's read on you
Unsure if it's too out of left field to be scum or if they're that desperate to broaden the POE. Meh. I think scumreading you is bad, I'd have to reread Gamma's post for bad intentions because I don't think it's inherently scummy.

I don't remember other specific instances of towniness, tbh. I barely had a read on Gamma before day 3, I was just like "he's around enough and doesn't look scummy so I'm willing to accept he's town for now". In a 20 person game my mind has not had the space to read everyone, especially people making content that doesn't stick out to me. (Like Gamma. Val early on and Datisi too)

Idk Kovu I've technically read Gamma's longer posts but I don't remember much that got said in them. They just didn't stick to me, a lot of things just aren't sticking to me this game. So I'm commenting on what has. Maybe I should care more about truly absorbing the posts getting made but it doesn't really seem worthwhile at the moment.

Imo just pew pew pow Dunn, Gorilla and Fey ASAP and if the game isn't over we look at Fire and Gamma. That's about where I'm at.

It's less simple for you since you have no confirmation of my alignment, I guess. I wish I could just control where our kills went but alas.

[Meuh]

(Last post is all @Kovu)

@Gorilla
Yeah, I guess Dunn/Fey/Fire is a reasonable solve. (I know it wasn't said but I'm a townie and in that theoretical Gamma and Gorilla also are) I don't think Gorilla's plan is bad here. I think with all 3 of them + Gorilla out of the game we just win either way. If we lose there it'd be like a Gamma/Dunn/Gorilla team or a Gamma/Fey/Gorilla team; which I guess is possible but I don't see as particularly likely.

Pedit: You can kill me before endgame if you kill the 4 I've just proposed. I don't care at this point

[Meuh]

Maybe I should be less apathetic so we progress more.

HEY GUYS LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! LET'S WIN THIS GAME!!! WE LIKELY HAVE 5 KILLS AND 2 CONFIRMED TOWN, WE CAN DO THIS!!!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WE HAVE TO DO IT!!! LET'S GO TEAM!!!! FINALLY KILL THE MAFIA!!
(as an aside the game flavour's been fun, thanks Prism!)

[Meuh]

> I'd have to reread Gamma's post for bad intentions because I don't think it's inherently scummy.
You were just telling me gamma's posts were towny? like, what posts are you reading? I'm talking about day 4 gamma posts.. like there was even just a list of reads where I was at the bottom, doesn't take much reading to see that.. and my interactions with gamma today have been "why am I automatically maf cause you think there's a deepwolf" Like, why do I out my fire hood at day 2 start as scum? no benefit to outing it.

I was referring to Gamma's read on you. I don't think scumreading you is an inherently scummy thing. I think it's incorrect, yes, but not necessarily scummy.
I'm saying there's been moments of "oh, okay he's probably town" that I've had with Gamma, not that his posting overall has been townie. I'm kinda neutral on a lot of his posts iirc.

I don't think you're scum, I'm not arguing in favour of Gamma's logic. I think it's a bit silly to assume you're a deepwolf, but I also very much can see a townie get paranoid about one existing, and if so, you and Fire are the only candidates. Fire being a much more reasonable potential deepwolf, though. I think you've had too many moments that seemed very genuine to be scum, but I think your posting style of often switching up reads and votes, seemingly unprompted could be seem as scummy. (I'd assume a large part of this was because of hood discussion?) I've been called out for similar reasons in games before and I see the mindset behind it, and also know that it's very very often NAI or even town indicative. I'd even say it is for myself.

But I should probably properly take a look at Gamma's push against you. If his logic or tone is bad, then maybe he has ill-intentions here.

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

Okay look at this, it's townie logic. The only scenario where I see Gamma push you as scum like this is if he's very desperate and also partnered with Fire. (Pushing you over Fire would be bad if you and Fire were town/town.) But those 2 things seem contradictory. A Gamma/Fire/anyone else team was - and imo still is - lined up for a win. So I just don't see scum!Gamma saying this.

I do see town!Gamma saying it though. Being scared, seeing the gamestate as worse for town than it realistically is, and having a scumread on someone who clearly isn't going to get limmed anytime soon seems like ridiculous scum play. Wouldn't the best angle for scum!Gamma to go with like, actually to just try to pocket you?

2231 this is just so good. Like is it very likely wrong? Yes. Is it genuine and coming from someone trying to solve? Also yes. 2411 too. This is not a push being made by scum.
The read evolves naturally, doesn't benefit a scum agenda and Gamma's posts on the topic have good tone. I townread him more now tbh

>I barely had a read on Gamma before day 3, I was just like "he's around enough and doesn't look scummy so I'm willing to accept he's town for now"
This is literally just saying "you're town for coasting" like.. yeah, why do you think we can't recall ANYTHING from gamma until here where the lim actually matters? Like, just being around, but not standing out? that doesn't scream scum to you? scum is trying to blend in. especially with invictus, like, scum doesn't want to be standing out, think about marci. marci wasn't really standing out, was all buddy buddy with you, but was avoiding anything controversial, and once marci went "hot take, kovu maf" I tunneled her, and she died. like, scum sees that, and goes "ok... just gonna blend in" cause town is shooting low poe, or taking a hero shot.

Nonono, I'm not saying he's town for coasting. He didn't stick out to

me

, and me specifically. He played relatively visibly and actively, I think.
If I thought he was deliberately trying to fade in and not draw too much attention to himself I'd find it scummy, but that's not the impression I got. The idea of him fading in makes even less sense with Marci!scum, since why would he deliberately 1v1 with her if he was trying to stay in the background?
My point was that his posts specifically didn't stick to me, they specifically didn't really catch my eye or had me think about them much.
To note that the main other 2 people who I felt similarly about, Datisi and Val, were both town. It's a personal thing that explains my own read, I'm not saying Gamma was trying to fade in.
I think your point about how scum want to disappear and not draw much attention makes sense, especially considering the setup. I'm saying I don't think it really applies to Gamma. Though actually, looking at it now; his post count is strikingly low. His content to post ratio is significant, but still I thought he had made more. I guess not.

See, I don't like the concept of "lim these 3 in any order, if wrong, just go here" like, at this point in the game we need actual reads, cause surely you know you're in the list of "just lim these people, if wrong go elsewhere" like, if we lim town, and invictus town here, we lose. game over. And people need to at least try here, and if you're not putting in an effort to find maf, you need to at least work on proving your towniness... and that goes for all town here, cause we have exactly a 0% chance of winning if town doesn't wanna try.

This is fair, I've been pretty lazy. We're a group and me throwing out an order of action isn't productive. There's no reason for people to stick to it, and even if they do the mafia might have some PR in their back pocket just to obliterate us, which would suck and derail any plans. Plus you guys reading me accurately would be nice!

[Meuh]

I'm sorry that last phrase in my post read passive-aggressive, I genuinely meant it

[Meuh]

Despite me playing chat mafia plenty before, I have a bad habit on this site of taking way longer than I should on posts, I get sidetracked easily >_<
I'm good with engaging in more quickfire discussion, my post also took longer because I delved into Gamma's ISO to get a better assessment of his play.
Doubt I'm hitting the post cap either way.

[Meuh]

> I think it's a bit silly to assume you're a deepwolf, but I also very much can see a townie get paranoid about one existing, and if so, you and Fire are the only candidates.
* Just cause fire and I are neighbors that have been giving this game 100% effort, that makes one of us a deepwolf? like, my issue with the deepwolf "case" is that yall are just "one likely exists... yeah.. probably" like, COME UP WITH READS AND JUSTIFY THEM. cause it's really feeling like scum hasn't touched fire/I solely to cast doubt on both us being real.

The reason I'm saying you or Fire has to be the deepwolf (if there are any, which Gamma seems to think) is that no one else even meets the towncred criteria to be one.
Bell and R&R are confirmed.
Cakez, Fey, Dunn, Enchant and I clearly weren't/aren't townread enough to be deepwolf.
Gorilla, Val and Gamma were more trusted, but still had significant doubt cast against them.
You and Fire are the only ones that actually fit the criteria of what a deepwolf is.
I think you've asked later why I don't think Gamma can be a deepwolf and I mean the answer is that he literally can't be a deepwolf. His name has been thrown around as potential scum way too much to be one.

[Meuh]

>I think you've had too many moments that seemed very genuine to be scum, but I think your posting style of often switching up reads and votes, seemingly unprompted could be seem as scummy.
* This feels like you're reading a line that was given to you.. which vote switchup do you hate? I believe I gave reasons in the moment for all of them, like, again. I CAN'T STAND THE GENERIC STATEMENTS. If you're going to call me out for some generic thing.. PROVIDE THE PROOF TO BACKUP YOUR CLAIM.

Kovu here it just feels like you're going with the worse possible interpretation of what I'm saying.
I DON'T THINK YOU'RE SCUM. I DON'T THINK YOU SWITCHING YOUR VOTES AROUND OR CHANGING YOUR MIND A LOT IS SCUMMY.
I even said in that very post it's something I do myself and that I find to be town-indicative a good bit of the time.
You switching up your mind a lot isn't something I remember specific examples of? This is a general assessment of the way you've played this game. It feels like sudden turns in some directions at times, and I think Gamma himself said something to that effect when pushing against you. It's a surface level scummy thing that a lot of people give weight to. I don't think it's unrealistic for Gamma to think that way.

From what I recall you've been vehemently against any doubt cast against you this game and I'd like you to please take a step back and consider that we don't all have the same outlook on the game, not the same instincts when scum hunting, and townies are very often wrong.

What I'm saying is that throughout my games, I've seen plenty of townies have similar thought processes to Gamma here, I'd even go as far as to say that the reasoning Gamma has for his read on you is town-indicative on him. It feels natural, he doesn't read agenda based and his tone is nice.
I also like that he seems to be coming into it with the mentality of town doing poorly.
As I've already said earlier this game, I think townies think of the game as more scum-sided than it really is, and scum see it as more town-sided as it really is.

For Gamma's read, it seems to be intertwined with the idea that town aren't doing well and that we're losing. It's coming from the perspective of someone legitimately anxious about if we will be able to catch all scum.
That's why I like it.
Gamma's push on you doesn't feel faked. There's progression on it, there's genuine townie reasoning leaking through, it doesn't benefit a scum agenda nor does it read like it's based on one.
It just feels right for Gamma to say.

[Meuh]

> Okay look at this, it's townie logic. The only scenario where I see Gamma push you as scum like this is if he's very desperate and also partnered with Fire. (Pushing you over Fire would be bad if you and Fire were town/town.) But those 2 things seem contradictory. A Gamma/Fire/anyone else team was - and imo still is - lined up for a win. So I just don't see scum!Gamma saying this.
* What town says this? like, are you TMI'ing Gamma town here? like, you "read" a gamma post, and now you're just declaring gamma as town, based on minimal thinking. like, hello?? we HAVE to lim scum here. and you're just "I don't see scum gamma saying this 1 line" like, that is a TERRIBLE read.. like, level 0 thought process... you're acknowledging deepwolf possible, that deepwolf couldn't be gamma? like, you seem VERY against a gamma lim/SR, almost with the level of confidence I had for Cakez... only the difference here is Gamma is NOT even close to as towny as cakez was.

This is how I operate. Single posts can sway me. That one post from Gamma was a meeting point of many things I think are town indicative. It's a package of many things I look for when town hunting.
Also am I TMing Gamma as town or am I partnered with him? Did your read on the scumteam change or was that just a passing thought? Do you think the way I'm defending Gamma here is partner indicative?
I've already stated why in my previous post, but yeah, there's a lot to like from Gamma there.
I looked at several of his posts that all felt very good, and I put into words why they do.

[Meuh]

> I do see town!Gamma saying it though. Being scared, seeing the gamestate as worse for town than it realistically is, and having a scumread on someone who clearly isn't going to get limmed anytime soon seems like ridiculous scum play. Wouldn't the best angle for scum!Gamma to go with like, actually to just try to pocket you?
* You're like convincing yourself you believe Gamma is town, but like, you don't believe it... and I genuinely can not see this being a read TOWN makes,
- having a scumread on someone who clearly isn't going to get limmed anytime soon seems like ridiculous scum play.
* That is EXACTLY what marci did... so "why would scum do the same thing twice" really isn't a solid argument.. again, gamma really isn't pushing me, just trying to cast enough doubt my way... Why would gamma try to pocket me? Fire has me pocketed, Fire has known every single one of my thoughts. Gamma came out with a SR on me basically right after I told fire I thought gamma was maf, so to me it looks like gamma knows he has 0 chance of pocketing me.. oh wait, you're not reading any of these posts, just saying stuff

I BELIEVE IT. GAMMA IS VERY LIKELY A TOWNIE. It was a weak townread at first when I mentioned it earlier, but small things are enough to sway me when I honestly just do not have very strong opinions on several players. Then I looked for the read on you in his ISO and every post involved with it was really good. You can criticize my gameplay for this but it's natural, it's how I flow.

I'VE READ EVERY SINGLE POST IN THIS GAME. Have I forgotten a lot of what has been said? Absolutely. But I'm recalling what I remember, and it's disheartening to actually look into Gamma's ISO and get new significant feelings about someone's alignment and for you to respond to it this way.
It's not particularly enjoyable and if you wanna complain about the people not putting in effort, why me when I'm actually trying to work with you to help you gauge my alignment and the game at large better? This is also why I lost motivation after the response to my Gorilla/Marci read. Maybe I'm too sensitive, whatever. It's frustrating. The second something finally clicks for me it's immediately shut down and it's just not enjoyable.

Like I think you have good intentions but it doesn't feel like it rn. It feels like you're interpreting what I have to say in the worse possible way and not even considering my thoughts. Yes you have put more work into this game, yes you probably understand it better than I do. This doesn't render my ideas meaningless though, and I wish you saw that. You're the one who asked me to prove my towniness in the first place, and I want to do it; but it's impossible if you aren't open-minded here.

[Meuh]

Okay, thank you Bell
I wonder if there's any specific pair we should be looking at for the next 2 people we're killing, because while theoretically we still have up to 2 mislims/miskills left (assuming none of our ways to kill scum can be prevented), we insta-lose by aiming wrong with both of our next kills. So specifically finding a pair that never flips T/T would be nice. I guess that's kind of hard to determine well in a pool of scummy players, though.

Pedit: Gorilla's bg claim is a big question mark to me too. Though now that I think about it, I wonder if it could've had anything to do with Luke's claim of the vig shot? Cause Luke was very intensely saying he wanted to kill Gorilla. and Gorilla was seemingly doing anything to stop that. (Wasn't there a whole thing with him saying he'd invictus Luke?)
The claim would be bad for scum with no pressure, but in those circumstances? Less so.

Like if in scum!Gorilla's mind either
1. the scum team loses a member by him getting shot or
2. he could save himself with a fake claim, but be more restricted later
It would be worth it. and since Marci was unccd, he would have a safer bg claim than he otherwise would. I recall there being a gap in time between Marci and Gorilla claiming? So a window to gauge if there were any town protectives. Though maybe I'm misremembering.

Hmm. imo Fey always flips scum in a scum!Gorilla world. Does anything else really make sense?
Also frustration is 1000% the easiest emotion to fake as scum. It's incredibly easy because scum are often, themselves, frustrated and it can pay off. I specifically remember the last time played scum, one of my partner got townread by a few players for a sequence of posts fueled by genuine frustration. Gorilla's tone in his posts is in no way impossible for scum to emulate.

Oh and Fey had the same thought.
Also yeah partners do that sometimes.

[Meuh]

I should stop pediting because I kept getting sniped

[Meuh]

Hmm. imo Fey always flips scum in a scum!Gorilla world. Does anything else really make sense?

Why always?

Hmm more of a POE thing. The only alternative would be you/Gamma/Gorilla. I guess that makes some sense, no not always I suppose. Though Gorilla's stance on Fey on day 3 felt very partnered, so I actively think they have some equity.

Pedit:

[Meuh]

I'm willing to lim Gorilla here. He acted purely in self-preservation on day 2, it seems.
Is his power meaningful here, ever? I guess in the very specific world where we find the scum roleblocker (which must exist if Gorilla!town) soon, then he manages to correctly protect a townie, which slightly narrows the pool?
But that roleblocker still makes 0 sense to exist since Bell got to FN VPB.
That entire claim is a mess.
VOTE: Gorilla

Pedit: Wow Kovu, it's almost as if you're actively looking for more reasons to believe a scumteam you already think existed

Gamma!scum isn't an impossibility. It looks unlikely to me based on his personal gameplay but it's by no means impossible and considering I was using absolute language when saying Gorilla!scum meant Fey!scum, it was worth mentioning.

[Meuh]

The only alternative would be you/Gamma/Gorilla. I guess that makes some sense

just this morning you were all "gamma MUST be town" off just 1 post though? "this isn't gamma!scum" or whatever.. do we need to pull that quote back up of exactly what you said about your partner gamma?

Individual reads and scumteam reads are different things, sadly.
Gamma as an individual looks much more townie than the others, but because of the limited pool of possible scum, he might just have to be scum for other reasons.
If Fire is just town (since both you and Bell say so I'm just willing to believe that for the time being), that leaves Gorilla/Gamma/Dunn/Fey. Gorilla/Dunn/Fey is very possible, but literally 75% of the team combinations here involve Gamma. (As do the others left here)

[Meuh]

Meuh.. I found this interesting, you commented on 2611 twice, the first time you were very critical of what gamma said, then the second time in your explanation to me, you were like "it's townie logic" that is definitely NOT what you said the first time you read it... actually, I just saw that and I think it's a slip, so yeah. good job!! Gamma is Meuh's partner.

Yeah, cause Gamma's logic that there must be a deepwolf was wrong, and I disagreed with it, that's what stuck out to me then. Things like that are things I notice on almost every posts, the basic premise being presented is what sticks to me, my brain was not in "hey, is Gamma town over this" mode.

Recently I've wanted to take a good look at Gamma's push on you and when I took a look, that post stuck out to me as being based in townie logic. That's not something I noticed on my first read of it, but looking back on it specifically focused on the push on you and the posts made leading up to it, it looked good.

I looked at the post at different times, focused on different aspects of them, with a different mentality, and unsurprisingly different things stuck out to me about it.

[Meuh]

I bet scum are happily watching this conversation happen. Blegh.

[Meuh]

"I disagreed with it" cause we call things townie logic we disagree with...

Yes, unironically. Town use bad logic sometimes.

[Meuh]

how do you know there's not a deepwolf?

Kovu assuming the absolute worse of everything I say: part 592
Gamma’s logic for a deepwolf boiled down to “scum must have some sort of control over the game” or something of the sort. I’m not saying there is or isn’t a deepwolf, I’m saying Gamma’s logic for it doesn’t make sense. Scum could very well just not be playing that well. That entire point was unrelated to my personal thoughts on whether or not there’s a deepwolf.

[Meuh]

really? cause I even told you that's how your posts were reading.. I was giving you my genuine points for why I SRed Gamma, and your response was basically "no! gamma town!!"

MY BRAIN WAS NOT IN THAT MODE WHEN WRITING 2614.
IT WAS INDEED IN THAT MODE IN 2989. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT I'M MAKING.

[Meuh]

Bell/R&R have had some of the best takes in the game when they do show up so it's disheartening, yeah.

Pedit: I do, but I also think she's horribly tunneled. I don't think that's something she's doing consciously, though. I will never vote for Kovu this game and nobody should, to be clear. I've thought this since day 1.

[Meuh]

VOTE: Marcistar
Probably the best option at this point?
I'm feeling like my suspicion on VPB might be tainted by annoyance

VOTE: marci

VOTE: Marcistar
Probably the best option at this point?
I'm feeling like my suspicion on VPB might be tainted by annoyance

didn't like the vp vote and wasn't really expecting to see this but i think i might like this post actually

VOTE: marci

let's do it

The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-12 15:30:00).

If I'm scum, is my vote on Marci a planned bus or a clumsy accident? May I remind you it started a vote chain, there were 2 votes on Marci beforehand. If it was planned why was it so mellow and why was the first person to jump on it town and the second also likely town? If it wasn't, why did I quote the ever nearing deadline to urge people to vote right as the wagon gained momentum? The answer is that I didn't have an agenda, and I just pushed for someone who I thought should be limmed, to be limmed. Nothing more, nothing less.
If my recent play isn't gonna convince you all, I want you guys to consider what I've done earlier.
It doesn't make sense if I'm scum, and if you realize that I hope you guys can go elsewhere. I will, as always, support a lim on anyone in the pool that isn't me. (This includes Gamma)

[Meuh]

I'm clearly incapable of towncasing myself, I'm just gonna hope you guys magically change your minds.

LMAOOO Kovu holy shit what even
That is not what I said
I pretty clearly cast a vote that lead to a chain of several more votes happening immediately after. I'm not claiming I'm the reason it all went down.

I was interested in actually talking with you earlier when you reached out but it's been infuriating. If you want to engage with me with an open mind we can but this is clearly not productive, which is saying something considering it's most of the discussion in the thread.
I wish I was scum so I could do nothing and watch town implode but sadly I rolled the wrong alignment, so it's just pain.

[Meuh]

I don't want to debate it further, I brought it up because I was desperate. A mislim on me sounds terrible both for our chances of winning but tbh mostly for my own personal feelings so I just don't want it to happen. Every time I explain myself my words get completely twisted, which feels even worse because I don't even think it's being done in bad faith. The feeling of trying my best to communicate what I'm thinking but constantly just failing to do it well is terrible. I should probably just close the thread for a while because I'm getting way too emotionally invested into an online game of mafia.

Some of the points against me are valid and like I get the general feeling of suspicion on me, but like this discussion feels so horrible. I just don't want to be mislimmed. I really don't. It'd be the cherry on top of my already mediocre gameplay this game and I'm sorry for holding us back and for bringing the mood down like this. I'm closing the thread for now, I'll check back in tomorrow.

[Meuh]

I don't particularly believe the claim. I guess I'll just say now I'm a bodyguard. I don't think multiple protectives in a game is full-stop impossible: the first setup had two town bodyguards and one mafia one. But a doctor in combination with a bodyguard is a bit weird, even if the doctor is gated.

It's also why I was...not particularly concerned with being townread when I was getting wagoned, because my role has the potential to be self-resolving if I guess the correct nightkill target.

I was on Lukewarm night 1, because he was in my top townreads after Day 1 (how times change), was reasonably active, and didn't seem to be suspected by many people, so seemed a potential nightkill target. Kicking myself for not protecting LLD after she got N1'ed in DEFCON, but I really didn't think there was any chance she'd be the nightkill target after posting only 12 times, which is also why I was theorizing that most of the day 1 wagons were wrong. My invictus had been on dwlee, because I thought it most useful to resolve the counter wagon with the invictus kill.

This is the post of someone trying to distance himself from his partner to avoid getting limmed and more importantly to dodge getting vig shot, which he was being actively threatened of.
This claim is a claim of desperation, it's a claim that's incredibly convenient and most importantly, it's a claim that isn't real.
There's a reason it all lined up, with him claiming after both being threatened to get shot and right after Marci claimed doc. The bg claim wasn't even necessary, Marci was probably getting limmed either way. He claimed because he needed to do something to avoid getting shot. It's all about self-preservation and not at all about advancing the game for town.
Note he specifically claims the person actively saying he'll kill him is the one he protected.
This is an appeal to Lukewarm disguised as a counter-claim, and it worked.
It sets up a 1v1 with scum who has 7 votes on her with a close deadline. Gorilla knew Marci was dying and he knew he was going to follow. He did this purely to prevent dying for the time being. That's why it's not a long-term claim - it was purely about surviving at least for a bit longer.
There is no roleblocker. There never was, and Gorilla wasn't thinking about "what if I have to protect an investigative claim on night 3?", he was thinking "what can I do to not immediately die?" and that was what he chose, it was right. Now we know he was lying and we should do something about it.

[Meuh]

i will remind you that counter claiming marci was unnecessary and that i could very very easily have let dwlee get run up and die. getting vig shot was no big deal because i'd be able to invictus in retaliation - no loss

Lmao what
A 1 for 1 is absolutely not worthwhile for the scumteam, especially if they lose one of their most engaged players (which I assume you'd be)
I 0% believe that you'd be okay with taking one for the team, especially when there's literally no downside to trying your hardest to survive there???

[Meuh]

I will remind you that if my team were any of dunn/fey/gamma we'd have hammered you while the clears sat back quaking in fear of having to actually take initiative or make a decision for once.

Ahh yes, the classic play of outing the entire scumteam before melo. Of course. and this is even assuming you/Dunn/Fey would all be online at the same time and able to coordinate this, which might not even have happened. I don't get the point here, "if I was scum I'd be outing the entire team right now!"

[Meuh]

taking a 1 for 1 is fine when there was an enormous risk of the elim swinging off town dwlee onto another member of the scumteam.

you're losing sight of your own narrative. why if i assume that i'm going down do i sit back and do nothing and let my teammate get wagoned and then counter claim them? you say it's "desperate", but if i were so desperate, why would i just not...take the elim on town that was sitting in front of my face?

Here's the vote count on the top of the page you claimed.

Vote Count 2.7

FLAVOR

"Cyber Rodeo was good, great, but we can do even better. For Selah, we've got to do it bigger. Cyber Rodeo was a landmark for Tesla and for Austin, but the true founding of Mother Hive Amestris-א0 will be a celebration for all mankind."

"Well Elon, that would be nice but right now it's just a bunch of rocks. I'd also prefer to lay low for a bit after the last Cybertruck debacle. That's already thrown off our plans for the Selah Gigafactory, since we've already delayed the manufacturing of that model."

"Rocks...and sand. Sand growth. You'd be surprised at what grows in sand. Anyway, have our people start working on a new festival. You know how these productions work, complementary pieces to our efforts, not inconvenient luxuries. Same themes as always, marketing knows what I like...I shouldn't even have to say who the headliner would be, right?"

"We'll see if he's available, and if not be sure to pay him until he is."

Player	Votes
marcistar (7)	Malakittens (2108), Kovu (2160), Meuh (2187), SirCakez (2188), fireisredsir (2189), Gammagooey (2193), VP Baltar (2197)
Dwlee99 (3)	Fey (1569), Enchant (1587), Lukewarm (1914)
gorilla (2)	Dunnstral (1296), Rhyme and Reason (1301)
VP Baltar (2)	Dwlee99 (1924), Val89 (2150)
Gammagooey (1)	marcistar (1239)
SirCakez (1)	Bell (1906)
Dunnstral (1)	gorilla (2135)
Not Voting (0)

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-12 15:30:00).

Spoiler: Postcount Tracker

Player	Daystart postcount	Reserves
Bell	115	10
Fey	38	10
fireisredsir	89	10
Malakittens	5	10
Lukewarm	119	10
Dunnstral	26	10
Rhyme and Reason	28	10
Meuh	80	10
Val89	28	10
marcistar	57	10
Dwlee99	21	10
Gammagooey	26	10
Kovu	98	10
VP Baltar	120	10
Enchant	27	10
SirCakez	64	10
gorilla	58	10

Posts are capped at 125 posts per slot per dayphase. Please see the Ruleset and FAQ for more information and tips on tracking your postcount.

Marci had 7 votes and no one trusted her claim. She was not saveable. There was no risk of the elim going off Dwlee, it already had.
There was a wagon of 7 people on her.

You counter claimed her because she was dying either way and her red flip would then make you look good. You just capitalized on the situation to try to make sure at least you'd be able to survive.

I don't get your point, there was no elim on town sitting in front of you. Marci was essentially already dead, you made the most of the situation.

[Meuh]

I’ve softened on my gorilla read a bit too which is a hm moment. I think the claim thing is pretty counter-intuitive unless gorilla expected to die eventually. Which... eh?

You have to consider the context of his claim. Marci was about to die, Luke was very clearly going to shoot Gorilla.

Gorilla had 2 options:
1. Literally just die to Luke
2. Claim something in hopes of not dying

There's no downside to picking the second option.

Like it restricted him a bit later, but at the very least he's alive right now, which is more than he could've said otherwise.

Plus it's not like he even could've predicted that there would be another town investigative role to protect, so it's not like he would've always been caught off of this. If Val hadn't claimed and say Bell died, he could've easily just said he was on someone else.

That's without mentioning the idea of scum having a roleblocker doesn't make much sense, considering Bell got to FN on night 1.

[Meuh]

I almost mentioned in the post that you're probably scum. Though I feel like there's nothing actually good about doing that.
Like if you're scum I've accomplished nothing by saying that and in the set of worlds where you're town (however unlikely those may be) it makes you less likely to hear me out.

Plus anyone who happens to be town who reads the thread gets to read that post, so like it's worth answering to even if you're scum.

[Meuh]

But really, nothing about that post compels you at all, other than that?

[Meuh]

VOTE: Fey wooooooo

[Meuh]

A mislim on me sounds terrible both for our chances of winning but tbh mostly for my own personal feelings so I just don't want it to happen

I mean, if we don't lim you here, do you really think you're not getting invictus shot? like, voting you out we can read the wagon/VC stuff. but you make it sound like the issue here is just voting you out. like ok we could vote someone else out, but then point invictus at you? why is that not the issue?

I'm focused on what's happening right now and what I actually have some sort of control over.
I doubt I can stop anyone who's invictusing me from doing so, so why would I do it? I'm crossing my fingers I don't get shot but what else do you want me to do, I just don't care as much about things I have no influence over

[Meuh]

Fey only has one I think? I have 2 so I think that's the biggest risk of a hammer going through anytime soon.

Ty for the update

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 4 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-28 16:45:00).

We have about 4 days left at the moment, so we have a decent amount of time, but also not that much.

[Meuh]

ATM machine

[Meuh]

Hope you rest well Mena!

A bit of bullying is always fun.

[Meuh]

Oh yeah Gorilla's handling of the Enchant wagon was weird. I mean his vote on you felt massively performative: Enchant was clearly getting limmed but he had to act like he was discontent about it for that juicy juicy towncred.
Feels even more weird since wasn't he down for making sure town could have a united decision? But then when that decision does happen he complains about it. I guess he had already mentioned stuff about Enchant!town so there's more backing to it but it still rubs me the wrong way.

[Meuh]

Happy birthday Dunn!

Also no I haven’t answered it

[Meuh]

Okay, I'll point out some stuff I think proves my innocence. (I wanted to make a bad PowerPoint presentation for it but it sounded tough to communicate my points well... it would've been really funny though so imagine I did that)

These posts suck and have vibes of Marci trying to emulate her town game
Her entire day 2 just reads like someone trying to manufacture content out no actual. A bunch of questions to other people and a naked vote.

why r u acting like its abnormal for me to do this when im completly lost? i do this all the time

Oh cool, she just dropped it entirely
Marci's favourite hobby is throwing slight scumreads on her partners and not following through with them...

nah, thats my 2nd fave hobby.

also like lol "snippet from a past game" ur using a game thats over a year old and acting like i couldn't have changed my style at all since then (iirc my first scumgame on site), like maybe i haven't yeah, but why not use a more recent game like holiday dance party to try and make a case on why im scum? i think ur just tunneling on me and trying to justify ur read in any way that you can.

Do you? I don't really recall you forcing your general vibe/posting style in the past tbh

The game I immediately went to was that one since it's the only scumgame of yours I've actually played, so I understand more properly the context of it all.
My argument was kinda weak though, at that moment it was kind like my suspicion on you + my reevaluation on Gorilla happening at the same time and it felt like I was connecting the dots and getting somewhere regarding my reads. So yeah I was tunnel-visioned. Still don't really feel great about either of you, though.

Do you think I'm scum, Marci?

no, i dont think scum would be confident enough to push a shitty meta read

i also think ur just spilling ur thoughts as they come to u and u arent scared of backlash.

1030 i dont see u as scum openly backing a miselim like that

i just think ur an idiot

Marci's response to me here isn't S/S. I think she'd be more eager to cast doubt on me if I was her partner, but she's trying to appeal to me to make me change my read on her. This isn't performative, she's interacting with me in a way that's trying to sway me, and that's simply not something that happens between 2 scum.
Marci never a moment questioned that I was town, which I think she would definitely do as town, but also if she was scum and I was also scum, as to distance or have a more nuanced take on her partner.
This entire back and forth is Marci trying to put out a fire. (This fire being my read on her)
Her specifically referring to her read on me as "tunneling" is her pushing me to question if my read is simply a result of tunneling, and thus stop it. I'm easily swayed like that. I also think her calling the read shitty is either frustration showing, or her trying to change my mind because of it. I often question my thought processes like that when it's put into question that harshly.
Also Marci calling me an idiot here isn't something she'd say if she wasn't actually frustrated. and I mean she wouldn't be frustrated with her partner's manufactured read on her. She's mad my read on her was accurate. I assume this was amplified by the fact I'd said I didn't want to read her on day 1, which perhaps gave her a false sense of security.

I also think 1380 in this exchange just isn't a scum post from me, also. I can't really pinpoint it but it feels distinctively town.

To note also is the disconnect in our tone and emotions. If this was something planned or manufactured between partners, we'd be on the same wavelength.
But Marci is angry with me and doesn't like my perspective, while I'm calm and in 1380 I want to hear her out, while Marci is straight up completely dismissive of the points I'm making. This is a townie genuinely trying to solve the game and scum trying to shake her perspective.

[Meuh]

Also, your case is...a handful of posts from within the first 10 pages of the game? Seriously?


I think if you actually looked through games you'd find hundreds to thousands of instances of players having slight scumreads or awkward interactions or whatever and them not being mafia teammates. Trying to find the exact team based on interactions with 17 players alive is just terrible, terrible process and I strongly doubt you'll catch scum at a rate better than random doing it. If you actually have an issue with anything I've said, come at me directly rather than making a nebulous associative case. Your entire reasoning falls apart if marci is town, so I don't see why it makes sense to come after me - and since I know

I'm

town, it means your reasoning for marci being scum isn't very credible to me.

iirc you got called town by like one person on page 4 or something and everyone accepted it. Time to question that a bit more
Ik preflip associatives aren't that productive but let me engage in my conspiratorial thinking a bit. I'm passionate about it and it's fun!
Perhaps the point I made about you/Marci being scum together falls apart if she's town, but independently I think you're scummy, or at the very least you should be scrutinized more. Enchant's vote prompted me to look at your ISO and... yeah. It's not great.

PEdit: read people better I kicked the hornet's nest as VPB would say, scum big mad!

This post is like way too abrasive to be my scum game tbh
I don't think this is how I interact with the response to a push on my own partner? Like idk it does not read like it
Also if you guys still think Gorilla and I flip S/S in a million years look at this
Dude was clearly pissed at me at this point and I was laughing at it, cause that was a scum!response

Imagine thinking sheeping a troll who is openly not playing the game and probably has <<<rand voting accuracy is a good idea. The type of player who would have been an easy policy kill back in the day.


Anyawy, go ahead and scrutinize me. What are you getting out of this, exactly?

Since when am I sheeping? I already said Enchant's vote prompted me to reevaluate you, and I drew my own conclusions from there. For you to be this dismissive of it all is odd.
Enchant being a policy lim "back in the day" doesn't somehow make you less scummy, I don't care. The fact this is the angle you're approaching my vote with makes me think you're not engaging with me in good faith.

I don't think scum were under any significant threat yesterday, and as such I believe we should look at people who were under-examined rather than simply revisiting people who were the main wagons on day 1 (marci, dwlee - although i'm still not totally sure about dwlee).

You mean we should look at people like you? Like what I'm doing at this very moment? You're pretty much the player who got the least pressure on day 1

This post too, if I'm scum and Gorilla's town I wouldn't be saying any of this.
He was one of the loudest voices in the game, townread by most (yes there was more doubt than on day 1 but still) and getting him frustrated was pretty clearly not gonna help my case. I still did it because my top priority was and still is solving the game, not appealing to other players.

[Meuh]

I

bell

ieve in you!!!

Spoiler:

Get it?

[Meuh]

Not sure I really think Gamma is scum but I do think Enchant is, regardless.

Same vibes

[Meuh]

Nice to hear!

[Meuh]

The thing with a lot of the arguments made against me is that I'm a very emotion based player and make wild 180s, and I don't really have much to say when that gets called scummy, generally speaking it is, sure. The only thing I can really do about it would be bringing up meta on my scum and town games but that's not really compelling

Like of course there's always some extent of logic behind my actions but like why did I vote Gorilla over Marci? It felt right. Why did my read on Marci change drastically? I had a change of heart after seeing some of her posts on day 2. My actions are the meeting point of a bunch of different ideas and feelings I have colliding and that's hard to communicate well. My actions are very much motivated in making myself feel like I'm on the right track, quenching the dread. When I have moments where I feel I truly end up on that path it just clicks in my mind, like with the Gorilla/Marci thing.

I'll go dig for instances of strategical mismatch in my play

[Meuh]

Like look at this.

Spoiler: My day 1 read on Bell

I’m just sitting here tongue tied. How does one shit post with a mere 150 posts?

The dat’s/baltar thing is interesting.

But not really the main drive this dp I hope.

I’ve seen enough of Baltar and dat’s last games. To where I’d rather see them in the periphery. I sound like FL. /:

*watches*

@tako: easily done.

I don’t have any feelings on the gorilla, sk,

I feel I probably should on fire. Just based on their first posts but eh.

I guess I see generally potential scummy things that have been said before but there’s not much like motivation so much as sentence structure similarities. Context iirrelevant.

Is my post large enough yet?
How about now?

Bolded bits of this post read genuine and actively trying to solve. Feels nuanced in a way hard to emulate, if that makes any sense? Already voicing concern on where we'll be focusing our attention seems well-motivated if actually trying to get scum limmed today.

@Marci what's up with the all caps posting??

Dunn/Gorilla/Fire/VB/Lukewarm/Bell probably town here

You’re still voting town btw.
Just in case you didn’t know.

Helpful as ever.

Maybe the Bell wagon’s correct but the only thing that’s stuck out to me about them is being mildly infuriating, which sadly isn’t a scumtell.

Why is it town for Marci and Datisi but not for Bell?

I think the timing of it makes it less town indicative for Bell. The wagon gained momentum later, once I was being less considered (and only had 1 vote on me, from someone scumread by many).
Bell wouldn’t really fulfill the role of the “existing wagon scum are satisfied with” in the same way Marci or Datisi was imo

I'm at e-4 I think. I don't either either Marci or I are good wagons.

Then do something to make someone else a relevant wagon

Bell’s recent string of posts is very townie-like and they’re probably my strongest townread rn. Both situationally and based on their own actions they should be town.

I think I was too quick to sort VPB, some of the points made against him were pretty bad imo but that doesn’t somehow clear him either. Haven’t gotten many pings from him.

At this point I’m willing to just throw Gorilla/Bell/Fire into the townbin and assume they have good intentions, I don’t see why not.

Well these votes on me are a little odd, but ok.

I’m heading to try to catch some more zzz’s, but I’ll reply when I’m up.

Bell is for sure town; same with Kovu. Those are my solid top two town reads. I’m very confident in reading them both.

Hopefully I’ll be able to townblock soon & sort the rest of the scum out via PoE.

Okay this post is pretty good!

I’ll go back to
VOTE: Enchant

Bell’s recent string of posts is very townie-like and they’re probably my strongest townread rn. Both situationally and based on their own actions they should be town.

Why do you think it's townie?

Their reads just seem to flow naturally, though specifically the progression in those posts looks good.
The switcheroo on the read on me seems hard to naturally emulate for scum but Bell looked genuine.

honestly I'd love to hear more on the Bell TRs, cause this isn't exactly mirroring the bell!town I'm familiar with, this bell isn't doing too much, but it's also like half this freaking table is doing nothing, soooo idk, someone called enchant town right? I'm also really curious on that.... cause enchant is one that still has 0 content

I don’t have any input on Bell’s meta bc I’ve never played with them.
Like I said earlier, being unhelpful at times doesn’t make someone scum, as much as that would be nice.
iirc most arguments made against Bell either
-Revolve around them being mildly unhelpful
-Revolve around their meta
Neither of which are compelling to me.

What do I gain from my townread on Bell here? He was actively getting wagoned (got up to 7 votes) but I thought he was a townie. and it's not like I acted in a buddy buddy way either, I was frustrated with him and wasn't afraid of letting it known.
I think this read doesn't strategically serve a scum agenda. Bell got a bunch of votes and many people scrutinized me for actively townreading him.

[Meuh]

hmm meuh probably town, she's like the only one even really trying now, so I gues... gamma or gorilla here?

Do you think scum aren't trying rn? I'm down for either of them though, since neither are named "Meuh".

[Meuh]

Fey's voting for him!
Us 3 + anyone else (maybe just Bell?) would work

[Meuh]

this also kinda reminds me of large normal 238 d2 where it felt like for most of the day things were sort of stagnant, nothing getting pushed super hard, and it seemed like scum was probably happy with the game state (which it turned out they were, main wagons were town).

and then there was galron, who was kinda lurking it out and going with the flow and a lot of people had him in their scumreads but nobody was really pushing him. and so we flashwagoned him near the end of day, and it prob would have gone through but then tragically yeet had a false inno on him and saved him. but he was scum and if the wagon had gone through we probably would have won that game

like obviously this isn't a reason to vote lavar here on its own but it's something that i was reminded of. the gamestate vibes feel kinda similar. it doesn't really apply if marci is scum but eh im less confident on that now

This type of scenario has happened to me more than once, and I do think flashwagons are more likely to come from town than coordinated scum efforts. It's a huge risk from a scum perspective to bunch up and try to tip the scales for a LHF misyeet D1.

That's why I love a good flashwagon!

I trust VPB, flashwagons good + they have never gone wrong

VOTE: Gorilla

[Meuh]

3075

[Meuh]

Being in a hood sounds fun, especially in a postcap game
Cakez should've added me smh smh

[Meuh]

Yay!
We should shitpost more, that's 90% of the fun in a mafia game

[Meuh]

Considering I don't think a single person went into their reserves, idk if that's true? But maybe people would be less scared of getting into their reserves so they'd post more. (Wasn't Lukewarm on day 2 the only one who got close?)

To me it feels like compelling the players to compile their thoughts into 1 post is good so we don't get people flooding the thread. (I'm probably the one who did this the most this game so ) But if it prevents shitposting it's less good. So it's good and bad. Don't know what to make of it, but I'd definitely not be opposed to playing another postcap game in the future.
I'm also curious about the impact it had on private thread activity (and if this is good or bad for the health of the game)

[Meuh]

percentage based postcaps also interest me as a way to specifically stop 1-3 players from just hijacking the thread, but they sound harder to implement. Plus harder to follow, both for players and hosts.
and also it feels like it'd punish people for trying to make a game more active when a large amount of the list aren't doing much, which sounds not very fun.
So maybe just a preset universal cap like this one is good.

[Meuh]

Dunnstral

[Meuh]

Dunn/Fey in lim and invictus gets us to day 5 like 99% of the time
Unless we live in the cursed Fire/Gamma/Gorilla world, in which case I’ll just cry

[Meuh]

Can I hammer? Never done that before it’s exciting

[Meuh]

VOTE: Gorilla
This is poetic in a way

[Meuh]

Oh I forgot Fey switched votes
Kovu you just hammered, yay

[Meuh]

Damn. Still not over that Gorilla flip honestly, at least we still have a chance.

[Meuh]

Headed to sleep but hoping we can unravel this game ASAP.
I guess that role and whatever roleblocked Gorilla is what makes the game mechanically balanced

[Meuh]

Meuh. what's your current read on Gamma?

Gamma has me really conflicted, I still like his vibes. He may be agenda motivated though just from the opening today. Kinda confusing for him to go from refusing to vote until everyone talked on day 3, and now carelessly toss his vote around in what may be MELO?
At this point I need to find a townie in Fire/Gamma/Fey and it's a bit tough.
Fire I'm not too sure on, Gorilla/Fire seemed like a ridiculous solve and I thought he was flipping red
I think Fire's the one who gained the most scum equity from Dunn flipping red though. Like I think it was brought up earlier but Fire was one of the Marci voters who hopped on first, right? Let me find that post. Oh yeah 2924. Fire makes sense as scum who capitalized on the Lavar wagon to alleviate pressure on Marci.
Fey has like good vibes somehow? Idk reading her posts her mindset is weird but it feels like townie thoughts
Like idk her fixation on the Lavar wagon and posts like 3095 and 3096 feel pretty natural in a way. Like I feel like she'd be thinking differently if she was being fed ideas by partners.

I'd say I'm leaning Gamma/Fire
Feels like a Gamma lim is correct today, because either way, Fire/Fey as a team is ??? like considering the way Fey actually called Fire out yesterday
and if Fire/Fey isn't it, then it has to be Gamma/Fey or Gamma/Fire.

and yknow how Gamma was scumreading you? and those were my thoughts on it

Okay look at this, it's townie logic.

The only scenario where I see Gamma push you as scum like this is if he's very desperate and also partnered with Fire.

(Pushing you over Fire would be bad if you and Fire were town/town.) But those 2 things seem contradictory. A Gamma/Fire/anyone else team was - and imo still is - lined up for a win. So I just don't see scum!Gamma saying this.

That might actually be it, weirdly enough. I guess you were probably right on that one.
I think this incriminates Fire if Gamma is scum, which I think he pretty much has to be at this point

[Meuh]

;-; I’m town please give me your blessing come tomorrow to be kept alive over Gamma. I don’t have the strength to fight him and it’s probably going to be me or him.

Why do you think those are the only 2 options? I have a vote from R&R rn and Kovu has voted me extensively in the past

[Meuh]

I currently have my Invictus pointed squarely at Gamma and have had him in my solve since yesterday so... weird team concept.

you've pushed meuh hard. meuh and gorilla have pushed each other hard. gamma has pushed dunn hard. dunn has pushed gorilla kinda hard and offered to vig him with luke. you and gamma have pushed each other recently. meuh has pushed dunn a bit recently.

literally every possible team has someone bussing someone. that isn't even remotely surprising at this stage of the game with this narrow of a poe.

you 100% know better than this. this is such a snap reaction, zero level defense. i don't get it

I kinda forgot Meuh existed and you just seem angy I said you didn’t look good.

Like I think the sort of weird condescending disappointed tone is just like. “What.”

I don't buy this being partnered

[Meuh]

I swear if Fey is town and our limpool was 4 townies and 1 scum...

[Meuh]

Okay we kill meuh

Bell had her in his solve (also thinks it’s gamma)

Gorilla said meuh next

After that idk, I still think gamma>fey but Fey was in the same section of my early reads as dunn so quite possibly I’m just wrong?

VOTE: meuh

I was gonna contest this post; but there's no point being made aside "townies thought Meuh was a good lim". That's like reasonable but also isn't something I can argue against.
If you pinky promise to pew pew pow Gamma, then we very likely still get a day 6? So there's worse things than your current solve but also mislimming me is very sad.
I do wonder if Kovu could win MELO against Fey and Fire. That really spooks me actually, considering the hood exists and I think Fire's scum. So maybe mislimming me means we still just lose.

[Meuh]

Like I think it was brought up earlier but Fire was one of the Marci voters who hopped on first, right?

*hopped off first

[Meuh]

Hmm, that post is compelling. The thing is that I do think that Marci's interactions with you don't look particularly like S/S, but like who's scum then?
Fey and Fire doesn't work as a pair very well as I pointed out
Maybe there's less that distances them than distances you and Marci, though. It's weird to weigh

[Meuh]

I guess Fire/Fey's interactions mean less since they happened much later in the game? So it could be more deliberate
Maybe Fey's just good at channeling her emotions in a way that looks townie
But like idk I don't really see it

[Meuh]

Like I guess it could be scum frustrated at each other
Frustration is the easiest emotion to fake
Blegh

[Meuh]

Gamma, who's Fey's partner? Feels relevant to consider here

[Meuh]

Does Fire really need to bus to stay in Kovu's good graces? Like in a situation where tomorrow is Kovu/Fire and one of me/you/Fey, I don't really see Kovu not just killing the third person.

[Meuh]

I find the idea of a me/Marci/Fey/Dunn team hilarious considering 2233

[Meuh]

I really just can't bring myself to see Kovu as scum here.
Like on a surface level there's iffy things about her gameplay; but the way like every confirmed townie agreed on her being town + her content (especially day 1/day 2) looking very genuine kinda stops that from making sense. It doesn't click in my mind

[Meuh]

no, Bell do not hardclaim, idk why gorilla is even calling out a PR softclaim, like, we're not limming bell, why is that even a thing? like, "I think this is a pr!!" how is that in town's best interest?

I think Kovu's stance on Bell here looks quite good, too

gl with work!

[Meuh]

Exhilarating

[Meuh]

At this point it's about finding one of the 2 townies in the pool of 4 we have. Not really confident that's going to be done.

[Meuh]

Will the other townie please raise their hand? would be helpful

[Meuh]

Meuh and Fey if you remember can you go over what your thoughts on Dunn were around/right after the peak of his wagon on day 3?
Meuh you mentioned that you didn't want the day to end early but joined Fey on Enchant pretty soon after

Fey can you give specifics for what posts there were where you liked how Dunn was approaching things and why you thought that?

To me Dunn made a lot of sense as scum from interactions with Marci, so I was on board with the wagon.
I’m generally weary of day ending early, though tbh I’ve mellowed down on it recently. Tbh later on in the day I wished I had kept my vote there because I was tired of the day.
I like having my vote always participate in the game proactively and I rarely just unvote or refuse to vote, unless we’re in like MELO.

Enchant made sense as scum since he was pretty much a universal partner and I was satisfied with the limpool we had, so hunting more there worked with me. In my eyes there was like 1 scum in {Gamma, Gorilla, Val} and 2 scum in {Enchant, Dunn, Fey, Cakez}. Dunn and Enchant in my eyes were the most likely scum and seemingly could be partnered. Fey I had gotten tonal townpings from on day 3 and tbh I don’t remember exactly what I was thinking on Cakez at the time. I think he had a string of posts I liked around the time I unvoted Dunn? I do know that I ended the day leaning town on him, though.

Fire townreading Dunn and excluding him from his limpool later on in the day didn’t help with making a Dunn lim more likely in my eyes. I just wanted some sort of compromise as a town but it wasn’t happening, so I voted wherever I thought was the best place to make sure we could secure a lim in the limpool. Dunn seemed unlikely to happen.

[Meuh]

gamma makes the case that if there's a deepwolf it has to be me or kovu bc we're the only ones who have been townread enough through some combination of effort or bussing to qualify

Isn’t that what I said, not Gamma? I think you’re conflating whose post is whose

[Meuh]

the logic is just straight up wrong, bc deepwolves are not always successful. they don't always get widely townread. the only thing that scum can control is the inputs that they put in. they can do the effort or the bussing, but sometimes they just don't get townread for it. that doesn't mean they aren't trying to be a deepwolf

I think we fundamentally view what a deepwolf is differently. To me there’s 3 factors that need to be met:
1. Be scum
2. Have high thread presence or otherwise put a lot of effort into the game
3. Be widely townread

To me what you describe as an “unsuccessful deepwolf” is just scum with high effort or thread presence. Being townread is a prerequisite to being a deepwolf, to me.
I think you’re also arguing from the perspective of “whoever the scumteam tries to use as a deepwolf is by default a deepwolf” while I define it from the perspective of a deepwolf being someone that actually practically fulfills a specific role in the game.

[Meuh]

and meuh's immediate reaction is to push back on it too. she recognizes correctly that the logic is wrong (although she's using that to say "maybe all the scum are low effort" rather than "maybe someone put in effort but didn't get townread"), and okay, that's fine

but then

300 posts later she's using exactly the same logic to rule out gamma as a deepwolf, saying that he isn't townread enough to count even though it's entirely possible that he tried to put in the effort or the bussing but still just didn't manage to get townread. it's the same logic and they're using it to townread each other and divert onto me and kovu

Remember when Kovu made a similar argument against me on day 4? Literally right before you voted for me? and I spent several posts replying to that specific point?
Quoted the posts in question for you

Meuh.. I found this interesting, you commented on 2611 twice, the first time you were very critical of what gamma said, then the second time in your explanation to me, you were like "it's townie logic" that is definitely NOT what you said the first time you read it... actually, I just saw that and I think it's a slip, so yeah. good job!! Gamma is Meuh's partner.

Yeah, cause Gamma's logic that there must be a deepwolf was wrong, and I disagreed with it, that's what stuck out to me then. Things like that are things I notice on almost every posts, the basic premise being presented is what sticks to me, my brain was not in "hey, is Gamma town over this" mode.

Recently I've wanted to take a good look at Gamma's push on you and when I took a look, that post stuck out to me as being based in townie logic. That's not something I noticed on my first read of it, but looking back on it specifically focused on the push on you and the posts made leading up to it, it looked good.

I looked at the post at different times, focused on different aspects of them, with a different mentality, and unsurprisingly different things stuck out to me about it.

"I disagreed with it" cause we call things townie logic we disagree with...

Yes, unironically. Town use bad logic sometimes.

how do you know there's not a deepwolf?

Kovu assuming the absolute worse of everything I say: part 592
Gamma’s logic for a deepwolf boiled down to “scum must have some sort of control over the game” or something of the sort. I’m not saying there is or isn’t a deepwolf, I’m saying Gamma’s logic for it doesn’t make sense. Scum could very well just not be playing that well. That entire point was unrelated to my personal thoughts on whether or not there’s a deepwolf.

really? cause I even told you that's how your posts were reading.. I was giving you my genuine points for why I SRed Gamma, and your response was basically "no! gamma town!!"

MY BRAIN WAS NOT IN THAT MODE WHEN WRITING 2614.
IT WAS INDEED IN THAT MODE IN 2989. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT I'M MAKING.

[Meuh]

Also sorry for not being around much yesterday, I’m a bit sick

[Meuh]

VOTE: Fire good luck guys! Hope you can still win it

[Meuh]

VOTE: Fey Worth a shot

[Meuh]

good luck tomorrow, hope you guys still pull it off

[Meuh]

I'm annoyed at Fire's responses to me but for the well being of the game I just won't comment on them

[Meuh]

Odds of winning are what, 33.33%? That's doable. I believe in you all <3

[Meuh]

Well played, scum team!

[Meuh]

I'm sorry Gorilla >_>

[Meuh]

ilyt Marci <3

[Meuh]

Wait this means we just played 3 games together and you won 3/3
Queen

[Meuh]

Also, as the winner of the "Guess the length of the Kovu/fireisredsir PT!" minigame, Lukewarm with the help of marcistar has given me a wonderful new icon for the next 72 hours.

For posterity:



Horrible. I love it!

He is wearing a sundress so you can join the Marci and Meuh Sundress club <3

Omg yesss a new member <3
You're invited to the yacht party