Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[VP Baltar]

@VPB - I mentioned a few points on Dunn-scum in my reads-list and included two posts of gorilla's I agreed with in reference here: 1714

REALLY dislike that Luke's claimed power is a vig and that they want to kill gorilla with it of all people instead of like Enchant particularly and the way he went from *don't know if Dunn is town for that flurry of posts but maybe* to *sure I'll shoot who Dunn wants* with i actually being a vig. Part of that is probably that a lot of my scum reads are basically polar opposites from his but I'll reread later tonight and see if my hate for it still feels justified in hindsight

thank you, checking out your dunn case.


I don't think your disagreement with Luke is about scum reads being opposite. The most obvious protown play of a vig is to shoot a black hole player like Enchant or maybe even Fey. I'm very perplexed at why Luke would want to kill gorilla of all people as a priority. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

[VP Baltar]

READS I HAVE THAT ACTUALLY MATTER
Dunn - Strongly feel that they should die. gorilla's said some similar stuff to what I'm about to (I have 1473 and 1485 in my notes in particular) but have a nice new condensed version with maybe a couple bonuses, freed from the wallpost swamp of the past.
A huge chunk of his iso for today has been nitpicking and gotchas of "NEVER SAID/DID THAT" instead of actually going over his reads in any detail, and I still have basically no idea what his reads are on the vast majority of the playerlist (he has scumreads on gorilla & cakez, and maybe still on marci I think. he's commented on VPB but as far as I see, not shared a read on him.) All the poking questions day 1 with no reads from him as followups followed by this feels like trying to keep an intentionally low profile and not give useful info for when he does get elim'd/invictus'd in the future. Also I think his push on gorilla is bad and feels more performative on his part than an actual effort to convince people that gorilla is scum and should die.

I definitely agree with the nitpicky/pointless arguing point. Also, now that Luke is out with this nonsense and pairing with Dunn, I am perhaps more swayed to backing the Dunn lim today as a safety measure.

Dunn -- I would like a full reads list from you when you pop up next. Do your best to sort people, and a sentence of reasoning would be great. No need to make cases.

[VP Baltar]

My town reads look like this:

I believe that Bell is a friendly neighbor so town

Malakittens/Rhyme & Reason probably town due to role as well, can look into this more later but not really interested in eliminating there

Actual town reads:

Lukewarm; Not solely due to their claim, I've liked their tone this game. Beyond that, I think a Lukewarm that shows that he is carefully considering things is likely to be town. What I mean by that is that in posts like 1606, 1106 show that he is looking into things being discussed in thread, which I believe is a town tell for Luke.

fireisredsir; The last game I played with fireisredsir was spring fling and I pretty easily came to a townread on them there, same thing here. I believe that they are out of their "scum range" which is (no offense) not very large. In this game if you open their iso they have several posts which are paragraph length and thinking things over in detail. I'm personally comparing to the League game where they were mafia that was talked about earlier as well as Spring fling where they were town.

Val89; I like the analytical style, like to read their thoughts on the game. I like that they point out when other players' posts don't make sense. I think that it is fine that they outted the Mala/R&r thing because scum have a lot more people to catch slip-ups and are additionally keeping an eye out for that by default so they likely noticed it as well, meaning only town would be confused by it.

Kovu: I think that outting the neighborhood like that and switching their read is pretty squarely Kovu as town

Lean town on VP Baltar, Meuh, and Marci. First two because I like some of what they have posted, last one because I liked Luke's recent posts about how this is town marci

and yes I see this, so sorting out the rest of your reads might be helpful if this is still where you are on town.

[VP Baltar]

If he is scum, and I don't out, I die to his invictus.

Would scum have invictus shots? That seems to auto-punish a correct town vig.

[VP Baltar]

I could likely guess someone being on Enchant, but he is not really someone I would want to vig because he is someone who, if scum, never end games. So not a priority for me.

How is this a downside to shooting Enchant? You'd be saving town a day phase if he's scum.

[VP Baltar]

4. Does everyone have access to Invictus?

• It can be expected that most or all players have access to Invictus.

I am operating under the assumption that scum have Invictus as well.

ok, so the scum have invictus in the original game. However, it does not appear there is a town killing ability in that game (skimmed, so maybe I missed it). That feels a bit broken to me if we assume all the scum can invictus.

[VP Baltar]

Even if he some how manages to dodge invictus's as scum, he doesn't win the game as the end game scum

having scum!enchant in Xylo sounds fucking terrible.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dunn

[VP Baltar]

I think that Baltar's recent vote switch from dwlee to dunn is in hopes to keep me from being able to shoot there.

Yes. Gorilla is a stupid shot.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Meuh

I'll put aside the thunderdoming for now though, I know people won't vote there. But I'm not satisfied with voting dunn atp either. So I'll go back to my prior scumread.

Why are you not wanting dunn?

[VP Baltar]

Luke, when you respond. I think you should just consider a different lim target. Gorilla seems fairly unpopular, and you look pretty scummy for the level of commitment you have there. Shooting dwlee or a more universal scum read is more protown.

[VP Baltar]

I do think gorilla is town. I literally just spent a bunch of time scrutinizing his ISO and his moves around lavar. I was looking for scum motivation because he and i havent really agreed on stuff a ton...but its not there. If I came away from that with a bad feeling, I wouldn't be trying to run interference here.

[VP Baltar]

If you want to shoot cakez, I would invictus with you there.

[VP Baltar]

Anyways,

Still voting Dwlee, if that wagon's not a thing then RIP. I don't actually know how to read Dunn.

If Meuh flares up I'll go there. Sure. Why not.

I considered taking up the Fey flashwagon notion, but then I just agree with her that maybe dwlee or meuh are the right choice today.

I can't think of any other way to get Luke to change his mind, so whatever I guess. Gorilla will sort you out if you can't wise up.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

[VP Baltar]

I think that a scum team with enchant on it would be down for enchant to be viged. It gives him his invictus kill.

It is basically +1 scum directed kill compared to the current most likely way scum!enchant dies this game (death by invictus).

Fair point to not vig enchant.

Pedit - oh look who returns when attention is back on them

[VP Baltar]

can i say something dumb

You may as well

[VP Baltar]

Nah, kovu is town. This kind of ridiculousness is pretty town indicative, imo.

@dwlee, cool theatrics. You can address the actual game content or people can just vote you and end your misery. I understand it is not fun to be scum who is on the chopping block forever.

[VP Baltar]

You don't have to agree with my associative reads to see how blindingly obvious VP scum is right now

Also, because this is necessary now I guess, I'm going to get dinner. I might be a couple hours cause I'm sitting down. Sorry for all whom this may disturb

Lol OK. Fwiw, if I was scum, I'd probably pile drive you here as payback. That should be a huge sign to you I'm town. I'm giving you space and legitimately trying to consider what a town you looks like here. Anyhow, have a nice dinner.

ok sure why not

VOTE: Meuh

@fire - if you truly prefer meuh, I'll join you. I do think dwlee is hard flailing here, but meuh isn't exactly doing shit to make me not want them dead.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: meuh

Think I like this wagon composition more.

[VP Baltar]

There is zero chance meuh and dwlee are both town.

Hi, Gamma, I'm interested in your dwlee thoughts and their play in recent pages.

[VP Baltar]

Idk on that. There are weird dynamics at play though. You came out today shit pushing me, then ignored me when I moved elsewhere, and now it is a shit push again now that you're catching votes.

I probably need to analyze how you are voting/playing around each other, but I'm fairly confident there is one scum minimum between you two.

Pedit- @meuh

[VP Baltar]

In what way does scum!me benefit from shit pushing town!you, like at all. In what world does it gain momentum, in what world does it make me look better, in what world is it an actual thing I would decide to do there, if not genuine. If I was trying to push someone to save myself, why not yknow, the other leading wagon? ...instead of the person that other leading wagon is voting for.
My thoughts happen when they do. I hated your opening today, then got decent vibes from you. As of late, your interactions with Dwlee have been terrible and despite you acting like you're giving them a real chance, you keep engaging with them in bad faith.

I think you thought I could be an easy push and you didn't know what you were getting into.

As far as dwlee, curious why you think I'm bad farthing them when they have used multiple attacks this game on multiple people that are just straight up untrue. Like, that's been proven. What I said about them not being around yesterday when attention turned is accurate. Fully possible dwlee was busy, but the difference is that what I said is 100% accurate, and things dwlee has pushed are 100% not accurate. So who is really bad farthing who here?

[VP Baltar]

You're not even denying you're engaging with Dwlee in bad faith, you're just saying Dwlee has also done so. Kinda confused

That's not what happened at all.

As far as you pushing me again, who else are you going to push of the people voting you? I'm the easiest approach

[VP Baltar]

I also doubt this will be particularly helpful to you but it's what I think so either deal with it or pick it apart and tell me why I'm wrong and maybe something useful can come out of that instead.

It's fine I guess. I think dwlee is more likely scum than meuh probably, but fully recognize I have a bias at this point because I think dwlee's exchanges with me are pretty detached from reality. The repeated misreps with multiple players bugs me, but if I'm being generous, I can agree with your view that it could town!dwlee who is short on time and doubling down on bad approaches under pressure.

I think I'm mostly ready for a flip at this point because it kind of feels like talking in circles about the same topics, and information will help.

[VP Baltar]

Enchant is playing at a higher level than kovu and bell at this point lol. Bell, you're being ridiculous and I don't know what I can say to help you. What exactly do you think is scummy about me? You just keep saying you're tunneled, but like, what have I done to make you feel that way.

Kovu, I find the way you play this game to be very frustrating. That's the nicest way I can put it.

@gorilla - can you explain your change in perspective a bit more than: I slept on it? What specifically shifted for you on luke? I also feel like a dunn vote at this point is a bit of a nowhere vote (though he is noticeably absent.

Pedit - why are you voting me val?

[VP Baltar]

I, too, would like to see what happens.

Why shouldn't I be voting you?

I'm town, and there isn't actually a reason to think I'm scum here.

What do you expect to happen exactly?

[VP Baltar]

Flailing isn't scum-indicative for me

Do you have any town examples where you straight up used misinformation to try to push people as you were getting run up?

[VP Baltar]

like every time I'll post and no one will respond.. like he has posted right before me many of the times, and just ignores what I say when I'm actually making a solid point, it's just like, VP... you have no comment? idk, it's a very recent thought, and I was like, hold up.. someone has been tunneling him in thread and I've just ignored... but I think you might have a genuine point there.

I find things you say to be so bad that I choose not to comment on them because I'm not trying to have arguments with you over your bad ideas.

You clearly just started omgusing marci last night and it had nothing to do with good points against marci (which actually could be made). So, sorry for ignoring you, but I'm trying not to be an asshole and have shit fights with someone I think is town. I actually did type up a whole thing this morning telling you to stop making everything drama about how mad you are and no one treats you well or whatever, but it seemed mean to me and I deleted it.

[VP Baltar]

My best moment probably ever was in KTANE when tldr there was a role that could force an explosion to frame townies but town didn't know yet, and the only way Baltar could be town fmpov was if the role existed, and then I predicted that Baltar was scum, the role existed, and that the person he was trying to lim was that role to try to save himself

You understand how after watching you pull this big brain off, I'm questioning why you are playing this game so badly, right?

[VP Baltar]

It's day 2 with no scum flips and also if you're town you have no idea how right I am except on you and you're objectively playing like your last scum game so you shouldn't be surprised I scumread you here

I objectively play the same way as either alignment. You have played with me enough to know this. There are subtle differences that are obvious to me, but you being like "you said I was trolling you in a scum game too!" is dogshit reasoning.

At some point, if you're town, it'd be cool if you took a modicum of responsibility for your own play here.

[VP Baltar]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88401

Here is the last time I was mislimmed btw

Will read this later today when I am at a computer.

Enchant is playing at a higher level than kovu and bell at this point lol. Bell, you're being ridiculous and I don't know what I can say to help you. What exactly do you think is scummy about me? You just keep saying you're tunneled, but like, what have I done to make you feel that way.

Kovu, I find the way you play this game to be very frustrating. That's the nicest way I can put it.

@gorilla - can you explain your change in perspective a bit more than: I slept on it? What specifically shifted for you on luke? I also feel like a dunn vote at this point is a bit of a nowhere vote (though he is noticeably absent.

Pedit - why are you voting me val?

Every post you make feels like bullshit.

Feels like bullshit. Let me know when you have something I can actually respond to so you can get out of your confirmation bias.

[VP Baltar]

Sure. But I doubt I’ll have something more given apparently you’re unreadable to anybody but yourself.
Dwlee took full responsibility for their reads already, you saying it, is just emotional manipulation.

I don't know what dwlee taking responsibility for reads means. I'm saying they are acting like I'm being so unfair to them, when every interaction I've had is them flailing under me applying pressure. Even when I look elsewhere, they start saying I have to be scum for questioning them, which is fucking stupid.

As far as readability, you're not proving me wrong by being unable to read me two games straight now, so...what do you want me to say? Like, I think you're majorly over compensating for last game, and that's why I'm asking for things you want me to talk about because I'm trying to help you. Instead, you're just digging in and being sparky, so go off I guess.

[VP Baltar]

You did good, but this “I 100% fooled you” thing.
Nah. I had doubts. You deciding it was a 100% win is just not true and it’s annoying if you really think that or if this is just rhetoric or you being surly or whatever.

My point is that I was townread that game for a long time until I made a greedy play trying to pave my way to end game. I didn't get caught because I got super sleuthed. The person who came closest to that was dwlee. It was good play by them to not buy my bullshit there.

But you're not going to catch me in any game because of things like phrasing. I'm not a noob at this game. That is my point. I'm not trying to ego flex on you or something. I think most people in this game are good players, which makes me suss when I see such bad arguments being made about why I am scum. Its extremely unhelpful that you, as confirmed town, and Kovu, as pretty obvious town, keep pushing unfounded paranoia. It's town poison and it's frustrating to me to watch what I feel like is game throwing behavior.

What I am doing with you is trying to get you to explain your position beyond your feelings, because that's not really something I can help you with to arrive at the proper conclusion that I'm town. If you're going to just shit tunnel, we may as well stop talking because I'm not going to waste my dwindling post count for today on that.

[VP Baltar]

I mean, I have info that I'm almost certain clears cakez so yeah, he's not being limmed here

Remember in Ktane when you lied multiple times as town. You should stop doing that.

I know what Kovu is referring to it is legitimate not a lie

Ok, think I know what it is now. We can discuss later.

[VP Baltar]

Didn't marci claim some kind of info on RR? I thought we had already gone down this path.

[VP Baltar]

oh. I must have mixed them up, I think you're right. Makes sense why I couldn't find it in Marci's ISO.

VOTE: marci

fine then. I don't love that this is not going to yield alot of connections since it wasn't a main point of discussion today, but marci hasn't done anything since datisi, so could be a lurker on the scum team.

[VP Baltar]

marci, you should claim. you're at Enchant E-1 right now.

[VP Baltar]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88401

Here is the last time I was mislimmed btw

Ok read you here. First, I think your elim this game was kind of bullshit. So like, if you're town here and this is what you have in your mind as what a miselim against you is like, I can understand your annoyance.

I don't think that's what I'm doing to you at all, as you got ran up very early that game for pretty BS reasons. Here, I'm more concerned that you're the one being unreasonable in how you're attacking people. (I don't want to rehash this because we've said enough and I'm basically out of posts right now).

I do think you're being slightly more reasonable in the game you linked, even as the people attacking you are being less reasonable. But maybe it's a matter of just different game/life circumstances. Interestingly, from my skim, it seems like the town are getting more at you this game than the scum, but correct me if I'm wrong. Looks like Cakez can weigh in too since he was in that game.

[VP Baltar]

Congrats to the scum team! Really well played.

And thanks to Prism for amazing flavor, and to everyone who played. I had a great time.

[VP Baltar]

do u usually play in games vip

Sure! I usually only play one game at a time though since that's about all I can handle for my bandwidth. We should play again!