Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[VP Baltar]

fair warning that i am going to be extremely lazy this game but will still solve the game anyway ok cool thanks

VOTE: datisi

Got u boo

[VP Baltar]

Gamma, when was the last game you played?

[VP Baltar]

everyone who has posted so far is town, with the exception of dwlee (whose first post is nullishly scummy) and gamma (whose post i did not bother to read). please discuss.

I read Gamma's post like 4 times and I'm not sure if I actually learned anything

[VP Baltar]

everyone who has posted so far is town, with the exception of dwlee (whose first post is nullishly scummy) and gamma (whose post i did not bother to read). please discuss.

I read Gamma's post like 4 times and I'm not sure if I actually learned anything

oh no baltar rolled scum

classic distance into chainsaw

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, I did notice, but I didn't take your town read as actually serious. There is a difference. Unless you're saying it was serious. Feel free to clarify

[VP Baltar]

Would u shoot me, enchant?

[VP Baltar]

Why do you think I'd put stock in a tell of yours that I explicitly called out before? Isn't it essentially invalid now that you're aware?

[VP Baltar]

Why do you think I'd put stock in a tell of yours that I explicitly called out before? Isn't it essentially invalid now that you're aware?

don't see why it should be, not like i suddenly got better at reading you or faking paranoia.

It's not about you reading me though. It's about "can datisi remember thing I told him" and the answer is obviously yes since you remember like every game every person has played in.

Don't love this!

[VP Baltar]

To post perchance to hunt, to find the scum
A challenge hard and harder still for we
A post restriction have — we must of old
Out write our words — ten beats the line no more
No less, a pattern of da-dun da-dun
How Shakespeare wrote: the old pentameter

VOTE: datisi
Old friend, old foe, I greet thee here with love
~Rhyme

You're not going to do this the whole game are you?

[VP Baltar]

To post perchance to hunt, to find the scum
A challenge hard and harder still for we
A post restriction have — we must of old
Out write our words — ten beats the line no more
No less, a pattern of da-dun da-dun
How Shakespeare wrote: the old pentameter

VOTE: datisi
Old friend, old foe, I greet thee here with love
~Rhyme

You're not going to do this the whole game are you?

Dear friend, to break this law would bring
Untimely doom upon our heads. We must
Upkeep our way to speak, until such point
that Liberty be left to us by grace
~Rhyme

So do you have to write in pentameter or iambic pentameter?

Also, do you get leeway for goofs? Seems very easy to mess up.

[VP Baltar]

vp it feels like you're using a lot of your limited posts on things that are unrelated to alignment or moving the game forward

I'm not super worried about the daily post restriction. This thread will blow up while I sleep inevitably, so I'd rather interact with people before I'm behind.

Also, I think my questioning of datisi was actually fruitful, and understanding RR's post restriction is kind of important.

I'd say I'm moving the game in a way I find useful.

Pedit - datisi, when did you start getting wagoned D1 for being awkward? Idk if I've seen that. This is a recent development?

[VP Baltar]

it does more often happen when i'm scum, though i think not exclusively.

This was my impression, which....

[VP Baltar]

its literally in the setup post as an example that there won't be an Iambic-Pentameter Post Restricted role. that's clearly why he's doing it lol. sorry to ruin the joke but stop wasting posts speculating on this

Ah fair enough. I was going to blast them because they definitely broke the post restriction more than once already if they were going to claim it.

So much for my English degree coming in handy.

Why are you being the post police though? Do you really think 125 isn't enough for a single day?

[VP Baltar]

I would like to point out that Marci voted Datisi in post 19 saying "I THINK HE COULD BE SCUM"

But the reason being presented once he became a real wagon was because he was ignoring votes - which distinctly cannot be the reason why she voted him originally in post 19, because Datisi had zero posts between Baltar casting the first vote on Datisi and Marci voting Datisi

UNVOTE:
VOTE: marci

Doing my daily catch up currently, but I think fire's exchange with marci probing their thought process and how it doesn't actually track (posts 84 and 86), as well as Marci's tepid response, combined with luke's point here are pretty solid reasons to think Marci could be scum who got a little too overconfident early.

[VP Baltar]

I want to say this is Marci's towngame off the top of my head. Not freezing up, replying/responding to a few different things. Seems out of the scope for her from what I recall.

Can you point to a specific response from Marci you think she couldn't do as scum and explain why you think that?

[VP Baltar]

The latter; and in fact he did mess up.
But luckily we needn't be exact--
The point is just that there's an effort made.

lol I really have not clue what your post restriction actually is then other than posting short half sentences then because you are definitely nowhere near iambic pentameter at this point.

At least this is more readable!

[VP Baltar]

fire's reactions to the luke/marci stuff are pretty irrational...which means he's more likely to be town I suppose.

[VP Baltar]

Not sure Luke comes out swinging on Marc but it’s early.

uh, why not?

[VP Baltar]

For me my vote was more of a reaction test on Datisi. Which obviously has a chance to be skewed, but I'm ok with it for what it produced.

What reaction were you looking for to help you decide either town or scum?

[VP Baltar]

I wonder, particularly given the use in the previous post, if I understand 'vibes' to mean something different to others. I voted datisi because something felt off about his posting in a way I was (and still am) unable to fully articulate - datisi suggests in 60 it is an awkwardness, and perhaps that is one way to describe it - if I was to make a better attempt, I think the early interactions with VP felt a little contrived, like it was trying to get out in front of something. I'm not usually a player to rely on the feels or gut, or whatever, and the fact that ping was going off at this early stage in the game was plenty sufficient for me to place a vote there.

Having not been given any articulated reasons for the suspicion falling on him, I find no fault in datisi essentially ignoring them. Takotsubo above suggests this is slightly town indicative, but putting myself in datisi's shoes, I can't see how you would play differently as either alignment, for the reasons given in 60 and therefore can't consider it alignment indicative either way. I'm left with whatever it was that pinged me in the first place, which hasn't gone away albeit datisi has had little opportunity since. I am leaving my vote there, but I do have to scratch my head at the the takotsubo unvote. I could understand moving the vote, but a naked unvote seems a little odd to me, particularly if, as claimed, the vote was intended as a reaction test.

Moving to the wagon more widely, the fact that one did build up to +50% of the votes required to hammer before encountering resistance is interesting. It appears to me that, given that nobody has come out with a good articulated reason for the wagon, either some portion of the player-list also got the heeby-jeebies from datisi early on, or mafia have taken a early run at a town!datisi and artificially inflated the feeling of unease around the slot. I also acknowledge that it could well be elements of both, but I think if so, the majority is likely to fall into the former category, given that it should be fairly obvious a quick-wagon was never going to succeed on a town!datisi without at least some semi-reasonable basis and scum could expect to be called out once it stalled. The conclusions I draw from that are: a) there may well be something in the early feelings I had around datisi, and my vote can stay there while I look into the assertion that datisi is wagoned early all the time because of an awkwardness that isn't alignment indicative (I am unlikely to have time to do so today, so help in that regard would also be appreciated) and b) I think I can reasonably be suspicious of those slots who resisted the datisi wagon and threw shade on the members of it, on the basis that there was a wagon. I would be less concerned if they had cause to townread datisi themselves, but I see no evidence for it.

I was about to spell out who it is I mean by that, but it probably obvious whom falls into that category and I am wondering if, given the invictus mechanic, if this is a game I ought to be telegraphing exactly how my reads stand at all times. In regular games, I think that is largely how one should play, although I know there are disagreements on that score, but I wonder if the argument for playing ones cards closer to ones chest is stronger in this game than others. One the one hand, if you are right and are openly suspecting scum that might dissuade them from killing you at night and leaves you alive to continue to push those scum, but if you are wrong, and scum can reasonably infer you might have another town as the target of your invictus, there is the risk of handing scum a free two-for-one. Given the number of D1 TvT shitfights I have found myself in over the course of my mafia career, I am inclined not to choreograph my exact moves at least for today and until I feel much more comfortable I am on the right track.

Apologises to those who dislike wall posts, but I not sure of the alternative here.

I came in prepared to hate this because

wall post

, but I actually kind of like Val's nuanced analysis here. I'm not sure I agree it necessarily means Datisi is more likely scum than not, but there is a certain logic to it I can at least appreciate.

Would scum try to speed wagon town!tisi when it is unlikely to go anywhere serious, and has the potential of drawing ire/blowback from Datisi or other players? Perhaps not.

Main takeaway though is probably town points for Val here.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: marcistar

bell - scummy because he doesn't feel like he actually wants to be here
dunn - can be slight town for 50, feels nuanced *enough*
dwlee99 - lack of presence and the quickness of 118 is town.
enchant - dead null.
fey - i think slightly scummy because the convo with me felt more like posting for posting's sake but i am not married to this read
fireisredsir - town.
gammagooey - like both of the votes they've made. don't think they're trying to give off an impression that their posts are more useful than they are. slight town.
gorilla - townie for 92.
kovu - slightly townie for 81 because i don't expect scum!them to enter like that but we'll see how this progresses.
lady lambdadelta - null.
lavarmanos - slightly scummy maybe? my eyes are glazing over reading these posts. idk jury's still out.
lukewarm - mostly doesn't make my stomach turn so can be town for now. 101 is slightly sus but otherwise all ok.
marcistar - lol scum
meuh - 63 felt too tryhardy, the points on me in 79 feel off, and the "haha i am glad to be town!! and solving!!" is forced
rhyme and reason - 120 feels kinda townie idk why call it vibes. i wanna see mena freak out that i'm townreading his slot for nonsense ok.
sircakez - slightly SLIGHTLY townie for 13 because i like the tone but it's like. 0,01% more townie than random.
takotsubo syndrome - i feel like voting someone then plain unvoting because hurr durr reaction test is not very likely to come from scum? like scum would have some sorta bigger trajectory there. can be town for now.
val89 - my eyes glazed over 131 so into the scumbin you go
vp baltar - deadass no clue what to think here, ask me later

town (from towniest to least townie): fire, dwlee99, luke, gamma, gorilla, takotsubo, rnr, kovu, dunn, sircakez
void (no order): enchant, ladyld, vpb
scum (from scummiest to least scummy): marci, bell, meuh, val89, fey, lavar

cheers

VOTE: marcistar

bell - scummy because he doesn't feel like he actually wants to be here
dunn - can be slight town for 50, feels nuanced *enough*
dwlee99 - lack of presence and the quickness of 118 is town.
enchant - dead null.
fey - i think slightly scummy because the convo with me felt more like posting for posting's sake but i am not married to this read
fireisredsir - town.
gammagooey - like both of the votes they've made. don't think they're trying to give off an impression that their posts are more useful than they are. slight town.
gorilla - townie for 92.
kovu - slightly townie for 81 because i don't expect scum!them to enter like that but we'll see how this progresses.
lady lambdadelta - null.
lavarmanos - slightly scummy maybe? my eyes are glazing over reading these posts. idk jury's still out.
lukewarm - mostly doesn't make my stomach turn so can be town for now. 101 is slightly sus but otherwise all ok.
marcistar - lol scum
meuh - 63 felt too tryhardy, the points on me in 79 feel off, and the "haha i am glad to be town!! and solving!!" is forced
rhyme and reason - 120 feels kinda townie idk why call it vibes. i wanna see mena freak out that i'm townreading his slot for nonsense ok.
sircakez - slightly SLIGHTLY townie for 13 because i like the tone but it's like. 0,01% more townie than random.
takotsubo syndrome - i feel like voting someone then plain unvoting because hurr durr reaction test is not very likely to come from scum? like scum would have some sorta bigger trajectory there. can be town for now.
val89 - my eyes glazed over 131 so into the scumbin you go
vp baltar - deadass no clue what to think here, ask me later

town (from towniest to least townie): fire, dwlee99, luke, gamma, gorilla, takotsubo, rnr, kovu, dunn, sircakez
void (no order): enchant, ladyld, vpb
scum (from scummiest to least scummy): marci, bell, meuh, val89, fey, lavar

cheers

oh shit, fire gonna bust yo ass for wasting this post though.



Honestly though...why are you giving a reads list right now? Why is anyone giving big ass reads lists this early? Am I that bad at this game?

[VP Baltar]

hes not really trying to make me see the light of things

you mean like when i asked you to explain how did you come around to something being definitely a scum thing for me based on nothing but your speculations about my personality? or like when i asked whether you are actually genuinely serious on scumreading me for voting a person fire also voted? when i tried to engage with you on why you were dismissing other people sarcastically when your points weren't clear? and you didn't bother to respond to any of that and instead went straight to attacking my reads? none of that happened?

Alot of the posts you've been making i feel like are very nonwelcoming for responses I feel like you dont *actually* care about what I say, i feel like you're just being agressive to me even though im trying my best to read you... I dont really think you asking me questions is trying to make me see the light of things... why arent you trying to point out proof of why i have to be wrong instead?
You cant deny "is this a joke" is a nonwelcoming thing... how was i meant to respond to that? It obviously made me feel like my line of thinking is not good in your eyes, so to me it just looks like u were trying to agressivly make me shut up..

i know im not really good at explaining things but it doesnt really look like youve wanted to help me at all..

When did I ever dismiss anyone sacrastically, and when did you try to talk to me about it? I don't remember it.

ugh, this post and the previous lengthy response to Datisi feel weirdly pure and naive to me. Thonking.


pedit- @fire, I wasn't stating the exact quote I cited was off meter, just saying in general it ain't right (and I'd argue the emphasis in those sentence constructions is whack!)

As to reading you as being irrational...uh, this is like every town game you have with me where you scum read me for nonsense, and then turn it around on similar nonsense. Like, the reason you're suspicious of Luke doesn't make much sense at all to me, but you do you son. It's exactly the type of paranoid without basis reasoning I have seen you direct at me before when you're town, so that's why I think it's probably +town points. I don't know if that mode of thought would really be easily fakeable as town because it is so off the wall.

[VP Baltar]

Yall talk way too much lol and they're giant posts... I told myself I was tryharding, and only giving 125 solid posts, but like, I can't stand reading all of them, ok um

So first off marci.
Even making the read I was debating if I wanted to townlean that slot, then was like "ehh we'll go for it" cause like, it's not like the reads aren't gonna change, anyways, I hated that post marci had like right before I entered, and it was followed by bad ones, like, I don't get why 106 was made to be giant, just to have a bunch of tiny ones after, like, a bunch of posts just responding to 1 post after another, and it's not even like a reply.. it's just you commenting on 119, 120, 121, 124, like, all seperate posts, so then why is 106 a wall? if for any reason other than this is some maf plan... idk, I'm not loving it
then you went back to going at datisi, cause that's like everyone's "go to" thing this game? you said this

> i know im not really good at explaining things but it doesnt really look like youve wanted to help me at all..
umm why would datisi want to help you??

your posts have just gone downhill, and you seem super focused on interacting in the past, like, everything is just responding to someone else, and some of those responses aren't great, and I see like no original thoughts, I really do not tr marci this game, like at all.
~~
Why am I bringing this up? well, I said I was town leaning marci, and I KNOW someone else here was calling marci town, I saw that catching up. like, no... nothing from marci's play seems too towny, and honestly, I'm thinking the largest red flag is like, the 1 wall of responding to posts... followed by a bunch of individual posts, like, that's maf realizing it'll take a while to hit 125 that way, and literally just going "I need more posts cause more posts = townier"

This post feels weirdly self-conscious and concerned as marci starts to take some heat and can't really explain her reads.

[VP Baltar]

First two people I just found independently scummy and the "last vote more scummy than 3-5" is kinda baseless beyond I feel like it

Why do you think I'm scummy again?

[VP Baltar]

The reasoning for marci being scum seems rather tenuous to me. Of course maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it. That happens a lot.

The basic logic, as I see it, is Marci voted datisi, got pushed as to why and then came up with post hoc reasoning that doesn't make a lot of logical sense.

Now, could be Marci is just a townie who decided to over justify a vote and didn't really think a lot about what she was saying, but she also could be scum here. Double downs aren't always easy to read, but I don't think Marci has responded coherently to pressure, and if she is town, she could have just admitted it was kind if a bullshit vote and not actually that serious.

[VP Baltar]

my vote was like page one, i just explained my reasons later so whats so impossible of those being actual genuine reasons?

Your reasons don't actually make sense though....

Fire explained pretty clearly how the logic you're saying doesn't follow through, and Luke dismantled your second reason about datisi not responding to votes.

As far as why you'd keep this going as scum, I don't think that was your intention. I think you thought you were giving credible explanations for the SRSVOTE, and basically no one thinks those explanations are good. The question is if you'd try to bullshit your way out of pressure as town.

[VP Baltar]

Semi worried this is a noraa situation though.

Bleh, Gamma, you hating on Bell because he is being wall paper and not answering questions?

[VP Baltar]

I mean, why do you think the mafia team is discussing your identity? How did you get to that?

Andante thinks she is the center of all thought, which is maybe +town for her

[VP Baltar]

@baltar, give me your hottest take on this game, stat

hottest take is probably you could be scum here.

Second hottest (with absolute zero reasoning beyond GUT) is there's one scum in gorilla/gamma.


Mostly though, I think marci doesn't look great and that's about as LHF take as one can get right now.



On the town side, my takes right now are that fire, Dunn and Val are all town.

[VP Baltar]

idk it just kiiiinda sounds to me like you want to find me as town here and are trying to come up with a reason why. maybe im being not very generous here, idk. but im not really sure if the reason makes sense given previous reasons you've had

Bro, you gotta stop with this shit every game. It feels like groundhog day every time I'm in a game with you. Here is a good tell for you to know instantly if I'm town or not: if you scum read me for nonsense like not caring hard enough about post restrictions and not conforming to your view of what is a valid way to read people or ask questions, I'm definitely town. E.V.E.R.Y.G.A.M.E.

hottest take is probably you could be scum here.

i've done nothing but shitpost, this is colder than room temperature

(though i'm assuming you framed it like that for SHOCK VALUE because you are responding to me, which like. meh. if you wanna jam about it ig)

Second hottest (with absolute zero reasoning beyond GUT) is there's one scum in gorilla/gamma.

ik you said gut but can you articulate which posts gave you the gut

On the town side, my takes right now are that fire, Dunn and Val are all town.

why dunn

I actually don't think you've been shit posting exactly. I understand you have a lot going on, so I don't even care about how much hunting you're doing. It's more your self-consciousness at your shitposting that bothers me. You brought up the "I'm being awkward thing", which I didn't even think you were being that awkward. I'm sort of concerned about you because I think town!Datisi would have seen that wagon on you was all fluff and wouldn't really even be concerned about it.

Then of course there is the fact that you brought up self meta that actually points toward you being scum. Question is, did you do that on accident? Or did you do it as town who doesn't care that it makes you look worse?


on Gamma/Gor - IDK, probably just paranoia at good players. I think gamma is being very nice and helpful and not really mixing it up with people yet, but it's also going into a holiday weekend and that game isn't really moving along. Gorilla is really just spidey sense. I might do some closer reading of them today to see if there is anything actually there.

Dunn townpings on the general way he is being proactive engaging with the game. He feels relaxed, and that's not my experience with scum!Dunn.

[VP Baltar]

ive been wrong before.

Yeah, that is exactly my point. Like, you're wrong in every game with me. You call me town when I'm scum, and scum when I'm town. You can point to me being suss of you for bad reasons in past games, but the fact is that I arrive at the correct answer on you fairly quickly, and I've basically got your meta as "inability to read me accurately." You saying I should be suss of your bad reasoning when I know this (and frequently point out in other games that I know this) is a pretty dim view of my ability to learn from past games, yeah?

i dunno. when you lay it out like that, it definitely doesn't look great but i'm not sure it's that damning. i like that you noticed it, though.

[VP Baltar]

I would like to point out that Marci voted Datisi in post 19 saying "I THINK HE COULD BE SCUM"

But the reason being presented once he became a real wagon was because he was ignoring votes - which distinctly cannot be the reason why she voted him originally in post 19, because Datisi had zero posts between Baltar casting the first vote on Datisi and Marci voting Datisi

UNVOTE:
VOTE: marci

Doing my daily catch up currently, but I think fire's exchange with marci probing their thought process and how it doesn't actually track (posts 84 and 86), as well as Marci's tepid response, combined with luke's point here are pretty solid reasons to think Marci could be scum who got a little too overconfident early.

mod, you missed my vote move

Fixed!

[VP Baltar]

The baltar whine about not being read correctly by red sure is a post of very low quality

That is not what that post is about. Are you even reading the game?

VOTE: bell

Watch out!

@datisi - it means I find your comment silly

[VP Baltar]

i find it funny how baltar says how i might be scum yet keeps sheeping me on my every vote

curious

That is why I said it is a hot take!

I actually just don't like wolfy pop ins like that. Always punish the pop in!

[VP Baltar]

Enchant
Fey
LavarManos
marcistar
Rhyme and Reason
SirCakez
takotsubo syndrome
VP Baltar


Scum in here, maybe?

Like all the scum or a scum?

[VP Baltar]

As a sidenote, I disagree with your Dunn townread - I think I've seen like 3 people say they townread him and to me he looks the same as he did in the last game I was in where he was scum (Slaughter Hour), and I don't remember him being different in World of Tomorrow where we were both scum with him either (though my memory of that game isn't great tbf and I checked out a bit after I died). Like I haven't seen him as town in ages and it's still early game, but his vibe still seems like *he exists a little bit but never sticks his neck out and makes a big deal of anything relevant*.

I'll try to give this a read later. Most times I have seen Dunn scum, he hasn't seemed very comfortable or proactive D1, which is the vibe I'm getting this game. Admittedly, it's a very weak reason to meta read someone. Definitely not a lock read for me, but I had recently written that in my notes when datisi asked for takes, so I figured I should just disclose to give us something outside bell/marci/datisi to talk about generally.

[VP Baltar]

honestly I'd love to hear more on the Bell TRs, cause this isn't exactly mirroring the bell!town I'm familiar with, this bell isn't doing too much, but it's also like half this freaking table is doing nothing, soooo idk, someone called enchant town right? I'm also really curious on that.... cause enchant is one that still has 0 content

In what world does enchant give MORE as scum? we barely even get anything from town!enchant as it is, like, the fact this game is
- no one doing anything
- making bad reads like this


I am genuinely just annoyed tbh, like can people DO SOMETHING??? like literally, half the table is doing nothing, has done nothing, I don't care that half yall are V/LA, you gave nothing when you were here, so am I just supposed to sit here for 3 more days just waiting for you to show up and say something? this is seriously annoying

Why are you complaining so much this game? There was just a string of posts from gamma/bell/fire/meuh that you could have said something about. This feels performative.

In a scum!Bell world, I'd look at Kovu and Enchant next. Both are making nonsense posts that aren't pushing anyone.

[VP Baltar]

Lol I kicked the hornets nest there. Scum big mad

[VP Baltar]

I'd look at Kovu and Enchant next. Both are making nonsense posts that aren't pushing anyone.

wanna ellaborate more on how my posts are shit? I'm all ears.

You're fucking boring and not actually pushing anyone. You gave a pointless reads list on like page 4 that was based in nothing. Half the time, you spend complaining about people not posting.

Town andante wants blood. Kovu is a snoozefest of petty complaints.

[VP Baltar]

...and how do those reads relate to the prospect of Bell flipping scum?

Both are being independently useless and bemoaning in their own way how people posting in the game right now, which is primarily coalescing around a Bell yeet today, fmpov.

It reads to me like an effort to shift the status quo without drawing too much attention.

[VP Baltar]

Meuh seems town to me.
Fire seems town to me.

Marci seems likely town to me, but I'm uncomfortable saying that when Lukewarm has a ping there. Then again, not listening to Lukewarm has been A+ the last 2 games lol.
Dwlee, I'm not sure they embarrass themselves by thinking the Marci/Bell wagon has scum in it as scum, it's fairly risky and gives them heat later that they don't really need.
Datisi, is just....Meh this game. They feel plain. But I don't know what to make of it.
Tbh, beyond a few sparks of slight creativity Baltar feels the same as last game. They got mad, but all I got from it was a brain dead vote on me, it was probably the worst vote this game, but hard to tell if it's just a character trait or not given they're relatively new to me.
I roughly agree with the universe aligning with Kovu, they're just as odd as usual. I dunno know that automatically makes them town but it might.
I actually think heart syndrome sounds vaguely town but they're sort of a none presence so it's hard to know for sure.

That's all I got so far.

This isn't antispew btw, in case you were wondering.

Dunnstrall feels very dunnstral this game.
I don't really agree with Val reads, they haven't really passed the bar yet.
Gamma's fine...Ish one ping here or there.
Already talked about Fey. One scum ping. I might actually have an alt guess that is accurate for once. But it doesn't help. Since they're kinda lackadaisical as either alignment.

Rhyme and reason's posts are bad. But it's hard to tell with their hard commit to posting gimmick.

LLD is V/LA until Tuesday.

No real stances taken here, lots of fence sitting

[VP Baltar]

And Bell saying this isn't my town meta based on a single game where I duped him as scum is laughable. Bell doesn't have the experience with me to actually claim a meta read. I believe what he is trying to do is to echo fire's meta read as a way to form a subtle pocket there. It's like catnip for fire.

[VP Baltar]

Actually, I asked you if you were scum again and you didn't answer.

Oh good question. You got me.

[VP Baltar]

Still skimming, but is anyone else getting the feeling from the last couple of pages that Kovu really wants someone to scumread me for a lack of activity, and is getting frustrated noone is biting?

Wants literally anyone but Bell to be the yeet.

[VP Baltar]

No. Because there are plenty of other miseliminations in the sea for scum to go for?

Wtf does this mean? Are you calling kovu scum? Val town?

[VP Baltar]

ELI5, please

[VP Baltar]

Still skimming, but is anyone else getting the feeling from the last couple of pages that Kovu really wants someone to scumread me for a lack of activity, and is getting frustrated noone is biting?

Wants literally anyone but Bell to be the yeet.

I mean, you are correct in that she has openly stated she doesn't want to elim Bell today. That's not really a secret.

The question follows: are you postulating that they are scum together?

Because that seems like such an over the top surface-level sort of worldbuilding that means you're either putting no thought into the game at all or are scum.

I'm saying if Bell flips scum, it makes Kovu look worse. Like, I explicitly said that. That's not world building, it's trying to read the game state (and maybe kick a little sand to see what stirs up).

You think I'm dumb, then lim Bell and call for my head tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

Enchant
Fey
LavarManos
marcistar
Rhyme and Reason
SirCakez
takotsubo syndrome
VP Baltar


Scum in here, maybe?

Like all the scum or a scum?

Don't think you ever answered this either gorilla. If I missed it, pls quote.

[VP Baltar]

Why do you want me dead again?

I think you are wall paper to the extreme this game. you're not really taking stances. Most reads you've given seemed couched in "it could be this, but it could also be that!"

Also, last game we played, pressure just rolled off your back like water. I'll say as scum that game, it was extremely frustrating! You didn't care if people voted you and it made it extremely hard to get you as a miselim because people could feel your towniness.

This game, when people vote you, you're explicitly telling them "you're voting town", which is the exact opposite of not caring.

Then there are the wolfy pop ins to talk shit that is kind of meaningless and not trying to solve.

It all adds up to not a great look.

@gorilla - it's a pretty straightforward question. Why are you being obstinate?

[VP Baltar]

@gorilla - it's a pretty straightforward question. Why are you being obstinate?

Because I think it's self-evident what I meant with a little bit of critical thinking and given that you're bringing it back up to passive-aggressively attack me, I really don't care to answer. You either think you're being clever and trying to trap me or are being intentionally malicious, but in either case it's a waste of my time. Part of me says scum wouldn't be so inflammatory toward every single detractor this early on, but at this point I don't find this worth bothering with, so I'm going to do something else instead.

I try not to make assumptions about people's meanings and would rather ask "dense" questions, as Bell put it, than to take an implication as a given.

You've spent more energy not answering than simply stating clearly what you mean.

How many scum do you think are in that list? 1,2,3,4,5? This isn't passive aggressive, I actually want to know your meaning and thoughts. Christ.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, please sheep your meta unto scum me.

what are your thoughts on Lava calling Enchant town cause "scum enchant would do more"

I've never seen Enchant do a goddamn thing as either alignment.

This is wildly incorrect, ftr. Enchant town definitely tries in his own way and it is easy to see his mind working in his limited posts when he's town.

This game, Enchant is doing nothing and is saving his posts out of fear of running over today (lol).

[VP Baltar]

I don't really get which way someone can look at the game and come out of it thinking Kovu's scum

Why are you townreading Kovu exactly? How much experience do you have with Andante?


@gorilla, thank you for answering. Can you tell me why you think Fey or R&R are scummy? I'd ask about me too, but I think your answer is "I don't agree with how VP thinks and approaches the game", which is whatever.

[VP Baltar]

and like ok fine you don't have the same meta read as i do thats not scummy, but... i also don't quite get it cause like... you're saying that you think he lacks confidence as town and that you think his mafia game is similar... so why is him not responding to votes more likely to come from scum than town? like whats the difference there that you expect to see?

it sounds like you're saying "you're like this as town" -> "i expect you to be like this as mafia too" -> ??? -> "so the way you acted makes you scum"

and i don't get what the missing step there is

I don't really see why it has to be

so, so, so

hard for you to understand what im seeing... but okay!

datisi being town just seems more unlikely, i think theres more benefits for scum him to ignore the votes on him.. whats so hard to understand about it???

I think he seems unbothered by the votes which suggests he has no hidden guilt, which would be a reason to feel nervous.

Do you have other reasons you townread Datisi or just this?

Also, have you played with datisi before or have any familiarity with him?

[VP Baltar]

@gorilla - it's a pretty straightforward question. Why are you being obstinate?

Because I think it's self-evident what I meant with a little bit of critical thinking and given that you're bringing it back up to passive-aggressively attack me, I really don't care to answer. You either think you're being clever and trying to trap me or are being intentionally malicious, but in either case it's a waste of my time. Part of me says scum wouldn't be so inflammatory toward every single detractor this early on, but at this point I don't find this worth bothering with, so I'm going to do something else instead.

I try not to make assumptions about people's meanings and would rather ask "dense" questions, as Bell put it, than to take an implication as a given.

You've spent more energy not answering than simply stating clearly what you mean.

How many scum do you think are in that list? 1,2,3,4,5? This isn't passive aggressive, I actually want to know your meaning and thoughts. Christ.

Was a rough guess at a POE.

Follow up, you have a town feeling on the people outside this PoE?

[VP Baltar]

@ gorilla - Glad you brought up LLD, because that's a headscratcher when I look at your list. You say people like Fey, RR and myself landed in your PoE because we hadn't made an impression on you one way or the other, which I can understand.

But, I'm slightly confused how LLD made an impression on you (or dwlee or Val for that matter, but let's talk LLD since you have experience with them).

[VP Baltar]

I'm not sure what you're hoping to get out of asking me why someone is more nulltown than nullscum to me.

Mostly assessing for internal logic. I hear you that it's hard to sort people D1. It mostly piqued my interest that your PoE was so narrow at this point. Certainly much more clearly defined than I feel like I'd be willing to commit to at this point. You also gave me shit for "world building" because I flagged what I saw as a potential associative in a scum!Bell world, so that obviously makes me curious on the nuances of how you arrived at your PoE.

I'm not sure how you could have a stronger impression about LLD at that point of the game than me, but we can leave it at gut for now.

@Bell - you've been softing PR forever basically. At least, that was my sort of takeaway from you calling yourself town as a kind of threat to people voting you. Is that something you do as town typically?

[VP Baltar]

And also frankly I disliked it because I don't think it's particularly hard to read Kovu as town here.

Tbf, I did have kovu as +town points earlier in the game, but this whining about inactivity on a holiday weekend is getting to me as an excuse to not do much/LAMIST.

I'm surprised you'd find that town indicative.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:

I guess if Bell is sticking by conformable role, we can settle this later. I don't love that he outted so quickly, but I can't expect people to play as I would I guess.

VOTE: marci

@kovu - I'm making the point that you complaining about it doesn't change the fact people are gone. You keep brining it up like you're saying something of value, and you're not. It's just fluff posting. Let it go, you've made your point.

[VP Baltar]

Might case gammagooey and/or val tomorrow if I'm feeling it.

Wild. Tell me more?

[VP Baltar]

VPB, why is marci scummy?

Nothing has changed from what I stated before. Post hoc explanation of the datisi vote primarily.

The main reason to town read marci is a "she's a noob" argument, which can potentially be true regardless of alignment.

[VP Baltar]

and i think a lot of his takes on recent pages are too bad to be real

What takes are those? There are a lot of them afterall

[VP Baltar]

You literally can't think those things. (There, now we are making the same arguments.)

But seriously, alot of you telling me what I can or cannot think, which is pretty ridiculous. Every point you just made comes down to you saying I'm bad, which ... isn't a good point. There isn't a reason to call me scum, or even a demonstration of scum motive in the slightest, just you trying to play arbiter of what is a worthwhile discussion to have.

[VP Baltar]

yes

literally you asked me what bad takes you had and then when i told you what they were you reply with "well those are just takes that you think are bad"

like ??? what did you expect

I assumed by "bad" you meant "scummy", since that's literally the game we are playing.

Your disagreements for disagreement sake don't matter, nor are they good, as youre stating. For example, gorilla's PoE clearly did need scrutiny since there is more gray area in and out of there than was clear from the original post. Or the fact you think Bell's readslist isn't incredibly stuffed with fence sitting when it self-evidently is.

Having "bad" takes does not equal scum motivation, and I don't believe you actually think that. I am certain I've seen you call people town who you thought had bad takes before. I think you're just obsessed with the idea youre going to catch me as scum sometime, and so every game we play you express this confirmation bias about me being scum (except when I'm actually scum lol).

[VP Baltar]

Oh hey now I'm catching votes with no legitimate reasoning. Told yall I kicked the hornets nest.

@fire - I honestly can't try to help you anymore because it is mildly irritating to me that I have this discussion with you about looking at motivation every game we play and you just don't listen. If you're scum trolling me, that's doubly reason for me to just cut this off, it's exhausting. You can just camp your vote on me all game and dig all the way to the other side of the planet.

@datisi - what bad assumptions is Val making?

Need to look at Luke's Val case at some point today.

[VP Baltar]

i spent 90% of the post talking about how you were taking action that i felt had scum motivation

Bullshit! I can't walk away from such bullshit!

(This is probably why my blood pressure is so high irl, but I digress...)

You made a bunch of value judgments about my thoughts sucking, but almost no real explanation of scum motivation for the stances i was taking. The only possible explanation you gave is that you think I'm lazy scum who can't accurately fake scum hunting so I'm doing things you deem are "bad". I can't tell you enough how ridiculous and surface level that is.

[VP Baltar]

Oh interesting. Need to reread tako now.

[VP Baltar]

first, he concludes in 131 that scum wouldn't be voting me this way because my wagon is not likely to actually go through. this is an assumption that the only reason scum votes someone is to try to yeet them, and that they never join lolrvs wagons. which like. if you have more than 1.5 games of experience, i don't have to explain why that's nonsense, yes?

Maybe. I would say you have a reputation as being good town and would not be an easy misyeet, so I can absolutely see merit to the idea that scum wouldn't want to tangle with you early in the game. That has a high probability of going sideways. At least I can say that would be my thought.

I don't think this is strong enough reason to want you gone D1, but I don't think what Val is saying is crazy either. I'll reread the kovu thing in detail in context at some point and see if it's as much of a misrep as you feel.

Pedit - @fire

like this is ridiculous i feel like you're just intentionally having bad reading comprehension at this point bc you find it funny or something and you know you can out-argue me since im weak and don't push for things very hard

Lol what? Since when are you weak and don't push things? You have helped run me up multiple times in games before. People like you more than me typically because you effort more than I do. This is detached from reality, and I'm not sure why you're acting like a victim when you're the one making weak ass arguments against me and I'm just pointing out why I think your whole approach is flawed. I don't even think you're scum here, so it's not like I'm arguing for your head.

[VP Baltar]

i made a post. explaining why you had scum motivation to start picking fights with people right after bell said you were in your scum meta for collaborating inoffensively. you ignored all of that

Because it's insane tinfoil. What do you want me to say to it?

It's not what happened, but you can keep building fantasy land out of popsicle sticks over there. I won't stop you.

[VP Baltar]

Oh hey now I'm catching votes with no legitimate reasoning. Told yall I kicked the hornets nest.

love the metaphor though i am interested in how it follows through on who's scum and who's not, in your opinion

I'm not fully sold Bell isn't scum here, but willing to give him some rope given the claim. And who knows, maybe I'll invictus him!

I also don't think I'm crazy with the vibes I was picking up with kovu and Enchant in a Bell scum world.

I think it is very weird so many people are having such a strong reaction to me fucking around a little bit. I also think it's unlikely that all the votes and shade I've gotten from that comes from town. Either my reads are accurate to some degree, or scum misjudged and thought this would be an easy attack vector. Either way, I can't see all the activity around me being 100% town.

On a separate note, did I get your read on gorilla already?

[VP Baltar]

I would say you have a reputation as being good town and would not be an easy misyeet

that is true.

was that actually said in this game prior to 131? because if not, i do have to wonder how val knows that...

Maybe I'm reading between the lines when I shouldn't be. That's what I took away from Val's original post on it

[VP Baltar]

Fey, are you an alt?

[VP Baltar]

To save the posts for you of asking/questioning, etc, I'm Ydrasse.

I wouldn't have asked you to out. Was more just curious about your experience level, but thanks

[VP Baltar]

To save the posts for you of asking/questioning, etc, I'm Ydrasse.

now that you've outed - this was my reasoning for suspecting fey. i figured it was ydrasse but her questioning of me felt very boring an unexcited. which is very much not how excited-town!ydrasse plays and instead feels like she's trying to appear solvy in a game she does not want to be playing.

Funny, I had Fey in my notes as either town or deepwolf.

I kind of liked their approach to the game, even if it was space. I guess I need to look at some town ydrasse games.

[VP Baltar]

since when do you take notes in a game that is 300 posts long.

Uh oh, are you scum?

[VP Baltar]

Citizen of Selah: You have your voice and your vote. You also have your own dedicated private topic, which can be found here

[VP Baltar]

my question stands. iirc, in guardians you said town!you uses notes if you have to read a lot or if you're replacing in or whatever. 300 posts is not really A Lot.

just because you HAVE a notes pt, i don't see why town!you would be very inclined to also USE it if you don't use it usually in these circumstances.

Primary reason has been to keep me from wasting posts. Lots of times I'll note errant impressions in thread or leave notes to myself about things I want to look at later so I don't forget, but with prism making the PT already, I have a place to put that stuff when I'm not already making a game relevant post.

I find it weird you'd think I just wouldn't use it when it is there.

[VP Baltar]

meh, alright, i'll let you live for now

Weird flex on your scumslip

[VP Baltar]

Reading his posts, he does not feel like he is actively trying to sort the PL.

He jumped onto the Datisi on page 2. And then he has road that vote through his whole iso.

The only other person he has engaged in in a substantive way was Kovu, who he has not even committed to a scum read on. More "Can't town read" and "it does appear Kovu has somewhat of a preoccupation with my slot."

It feels like it skips the step of asking whether that makes Kovu town or scum, or why scum kovu would do that or why town kovu wouldn't be, ect.

Other then that, I can't see where he is trying to sort any slot. I cannot tell you a single town read that Val has after re-reading his entire iso.

Ok, I read Luke's full case post-by-post.

My assessment is that Luke is perhaps being a little nitpicky and ignoring some context around the exchanges Val is having...HOWEVER...I think luke raises a valid point that Val is pretty narrowly focused on who they are interacting with. It's basically just Datisi and Kovu.

Val, can we get some gut reads from you at least. I know you said you didn't want to disclose giant scum lists, or whatever, but i'd like to know a few town and scum reads out of you outside of datisi.

[VP Baltar]

I kinda think malakittens is town this game. Their reads have subtlety and uncertainty that she lacked when we were scum together in KTANE. (Although, she replaced into that game, so I can't quite give the full town pass just yet. Will keep watching.)

[VP Baltar]

No case, gut and have to start cutting out the inactives.
I’m fine killing mala or R&R too.

Why mala?

Like, I could maybe get down with a Cakez or Dwlee lim because I know they can play better than this and they just aren't (even accounting for the holiday weekend), but it comes across like you're not actually scumhunting and just looking for any lim today, which is kind of garbage.

[VP Baltar]

Their reads have subtlety and uncertainty that she lacked when we were scum together in KTANE.

Ok, I skimmed her ISO in that game and I agree that it is extremely one dimensional (and different from tako's early posts). Maybe I'm tunneling, so I'll unvote for now.
Do you think it's possible being on an alt could account for the difference in tone?
UNVOTE:

This is the second time you've changed your opinion on something right after I posted. Why are you sheeping me?

I have returned, but I can't read tonight.
Tomorrow I should have some thoughts for y'all.
As always I will ask for any things
That people think that I should focus on.
(And just as always, no one will oblige.)

-Reason

Looking forward to the follow through on this today.

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

I feel like you're doing a good amount of soft defending me, which I don't really mind I guess, but why? What's your read on Fey right now as well?

(also, ftr, I have no idea how to scum read you either after all these years...glad the feeling is mutual!)

I don't know about you, but that looks very much like Lukewarm is telling us he has a problem with the datisi wagon being scummy....without sticking his neckout to defend datisi.

I don't think it looks like that at all. I think it looks like luke summarizing his case against you. I would like to hear you respond to the point of why you haven't interacted with more people, and don't give me this bullshit about "scum might figure out my invictus" because, let's be real here, you ain't gonna be the night kill.

I have to ask you, though, who actually benefits from me sharing other read at this point? Sure, perhaps it makes me a touch more readable to those who actually have the goal of reading me correctly, but if I were to become more widely townread, that would bring me up the list of NK targets, and I have already explained why having reads out there in that circumstance is a pretty-bad-idea(tm).

This is nonsense. The game does not revolve around you, and people would like to read you. If you're town, that's what you should be doing. Acting shady and possibly getting mislimmed is not a better outcome than being added to a potential list of NK targets. Town's win by town blocing and cooperating, not by individual players scumming it up for their personal viewpoint on optimal play.

I don't think people are being unreasonable to ask you for some more sharply defined reads.

Let me put this another way, at what point do we get wider reads from you? D2? D5? How is anyone supposed to form a town bloc with you if you are being zero percent transparent about your thinking? Doesn't this approach to the game allow scum!Val to just make some stuff up later in the game to make them look good?

I tried to work with you by asking you to give us some town and scum impressions without necessarily revealing all your cards (a fine compromise, imo), and you just ignored that altogether.

VOTE: Bell

Moved in, saw wagons are shifting here. This + marci competing is good

"saw wagons going here, I'll place my vote on this wagon with momentum then leave"

like.. this ISO doesn't feel like natural towny stuff, it feels more like scum trying to appear towny, like with the 4 posts that are here

I also think some of what dwlee DID say about wagons was kind of shite, such as saying myself and marci were the two most likely scum on the Datisi wagon, when I was the person who started it as a purely RVS event. I don't see how they came to that conclusion AT ALL.

in fact, let's do this thing.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

starting to get a vibe val may as well be town because i don't know if scum quadruples down this hard on a bad argument that everyone and their mothers is telling him is bad. also he's probably not scum with marci because i doubt scum!marci would openly tie herself to val by saying that he's making good points about me, after both of them completely ignore my points against val...?

What's your current feeling on marci again?

Val is probably town, I don’t think scum can synthesize the whole argument about how putting out reads is bad bc of Invictus. I disagree with it, but it’s probably genuine.

1. I think it's super easy to take the line of thinking of "If I was town I would not want to give reads" and replicate that as scum.

2. The reasoning for the reads he

has

given are sleazy.


Wagoning Cakez is fine, though. I'm mostly getting tired of Day 1.

This is correct. Extremely easy to fake that from Val, and possibly even a thought scum would have as a "this is protown" when actually it's just kind of silly.

I can’t divine people’s alignments from 8 posts.
You’re entering the ideology lane again. I don’t want to discuss the morality of killing difficult to read slots.

Yeah, but to act like you can't even come close to thinking about alignments is ... just ridiculous. You're not BAD AT MAFIA, are you?

[VP Baltar]

scum
maybe more scum than val but i'm not sure
i still read both val and marci as scum individually but don't think they're buddies purely because i don't think scum!marci has the guts to publicly defend a partner the way she did

I was mostly curious because you said you were maybe giving townpoints to Val for quadrupling down, and I don't think thats super different from what Marci is doing.


I haven't reread the kovu thing yet, but I can shortly now that I got some work done this morning.

[VP Baltar]

I haven't reread the kovu thing yet, but I can shortly now that I got some work done this morning.

ok, I read the kovu thing, and if I'm being generous, I think town!Val could have latched onto it because Kovu decided to direct quote them. I think Val is making much more of how hard people were "shading" datisi voters than what was really happening, but I also think if val is town, they are just tunneled beyond belief.

So basically, this exercise was useless.

HOWEVER,

It did lead me to reread Val's first wall on you Datisi, and that contains their extensive explanation of the "I'm not going to give reads because invictus" thing:

given the invictus mechanic, if this is a game I ought to be telegraphing exactly how my reads stand at all times. In regular games, I think that is largely how one should play, although I know there are disagreements on that score, but I wonder if the argument for playing ones cards closer to ones chest is stronger in this game than others. One the one hand, if you are right and are openly suspecting scum that might dissuade them from killing you at night and leaves you alive to continue to push those scum, but if you are wrong, and scum can reasonably infer you might have another town as the target of your invictus, there is the risk of handing scum a free two-for-one. Given the number of D1 TvT shitfights I have found myself in over the course of my mafia career, I am inclined not to choreograph my exact moves at least for today and until I feel much more comfortable I am on the right track.

I'm debating if this feels way more indepth and personal reasons based ("given teh number of D1 TvTshitfights I have found myself in") than scum might concoct? IDK. I think it's a kind of silly stance, but the question is if Val truly believes this is a good approach ... and maybe they do?

[VP Baltar]

ur so mean but what should i expect from the devil...

You're really asking me to vote you again.

[VP Baltar]

we'll see
happy with my Baltar vote in the meantime he keeps posting crap on every page I read
few more to go but nearly done

Yes, I'm the one posting crap.

[VP Baltar]

i have a gut vibe feelsies townread on sircakez

please do not ask me to elaborate i don't know

Yikes. This is a lot of points today where I am not agreeing with you. I don't like it

[VP Baltar]

I will lim any of the following at deadline:

Cakez
Marci
Dwlee

Maybe:
Lavar
Val

[VP Baltar]

Just seems really opportunistic to push me here

Seems like you're still not doing anything. Prove me wrong challenge and actually provide some reads/insight that aren't lazy af.

[VP Baltar]

if baltar was actually reading my posts to get a read on me (especially cause there isn't a lot there) he would see I literally moved this weekend.

Ftr, it's not your not posting that's really bugging me. It's that when you were here, it's the most basic and dull ass play, which isn't what I've seen from town!dwlee. In fact, getting tilted at a single vote isn't even what I'd expect from town dwlee.

Come back, read the game, and try again.

[VP Baltar]

I THINK I LIKE
VOTE: darisi
RN
I THINK HE COULD BE SCUM!!

It's wild af that this is marci's one and only vote all game.

Marci, do have any town games you can show me where you planted an RVS vote and didn't move it D1?

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: marci

[VP Baltar]

actually speaking of that

vp come here

tell me about what dueling wagons you think we should have

and why you're not pushing for them to exist

Anyone on my list and marci is good.

As far as not pushing dueling wagons, the holiday made things kind of weird. Too many people gone and it's easy to get biased on who is here

[VP Baltar]

we have 2 days 6 hours to reach a decision on who to lim. and LLD has still decided to give us nothing.

VOTE: LLD

I really think this is a good option, definitely at least worth putting pressure here. like, ~ 50 hours REMAINING, and there is still nothing from LLD, she was sure to tell us she was back (to answer the prod...) but there's 0 content. if anyone can find a town!LLD game where she did nothing... lol I'm pretty certain that doesn't exist

I agree with Kovu on this. Not sure what is up with LLD. I would have expected SOMETHING from them by this point.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar leaving me means he could still be town. But I am also still sus eyeing him for earlier

Well this post isn't making me like you more lol

[VP Baltar]

Luke, why do you think Marci is vote camped from rvs if town?

[VP Baltar]

Luke, why do you think Marci is vote camped from rvs if town?

The obvious answer would be that town!marci would continue to vote datisi if she continues to scum reads datisi.

Do you think that, if she were town, she would have started town reading datisi or scum reading someone else enough to move? If so, why?

I think scumreading other people at the very least. I'm not hard town reading datisi rn either, so I get that part, but I have a hard time imagining that someone uninformed doesn't gather other suspicions they want to chase over 700 posts later.

It's absolutely not a town to vote camp. I wouldn't even say marci is trying particularly hard to get datisi killed by gathering other votes, if she actually believes what she is saying.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lavar

Late day surprise wagon! My favorite.

[VP Baltar]

So Lava anbd Luke maf, then Enchant and LLD are gonna be town

Enchant scum, Luke town.

[VP Baltar]

Enchant does more as town. You got the argument backward, Kovu

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lavar

Late day surprise wagon! My favorite.

why should i vote lavar?

I was actually just thinking to myself "I can't wait to see what datisi does here"

Your move!

[VP Baltar]

this also kinda reminds me of large normal 238 d2 where it felt like for most of the day things were sort of stagnant, nothing getting pushed super hard, and it seemed like scum was probably happy with the game state (which it turned out they were, main wagons were town).

and then there was galron, who was kinda lurking it out and going with the flow and a lot of people had him in their scumreads but nobody was really pushing him. and so we flashwagoned him near the end of day, and it prob would have gone through but then tragically yeet had a false inno on him and saved him. but he was scum and if the wagon had gone through we probably would have won that game

like obviously this isn't a reason to vote lavar here on its own but it's something that i was reminded of. the gamestate vibes feel kinda similar. it doesn't really apply if marci is scum but eh im less confident on that now

This type of scenario has happened to me more than once, and I do think flashwagons are more likely to come from town than coordinated scum efforts. It's a huge risk from a scum perspective to bunch up and try to tip the scales for a LHF misyeet D1.

That's why I love a good flashwagon!

[VP Baltar]

I do think flashwagons are more likely to come from town than coordinated scum efforts. It's a huge risk from a scum perspective to bunch up and try to tip the scales for a LHF misyeet D1.

yeah same, but it also like just depends, if it's scum that's definitely going down, maf wants to stay in front of that and claim town cred, so they'll be on as early as they can, not all maf but at least 1

Yeah, agreed. If lavar is scum, someone in that pile of votes is probably bussing.

[VP Baltar]

And there was a big wagon on Marci who is pretty much a universal scum read. Why did that fall apart? Town evidence for Marci hasn't suddenly come to light

^trying hard to save lavar.

[VP Baltar]

Everyone vote lavar or marci. This division is good.

[VP Baltar]

shitfight of all shitfights with Luke

Ngl, the more this comes up, the more I've considered reading it for the laffs.


Let's get someone to claim here. Votey votey.

[VP Baltar]

ok, i can explain then:

1) your early posting felt really stiff and unnatural. this is more of a gut thing, sure, but i read posts like 91, 229, 232 and it feels like they don't really have any meat to them. i can't feel any town thought process behind your words, it just feels like you're trying to avoid stepping on any toes and making as low impact as you can

2) the way you interact with people. you're generally extremely accommodating to whoever you talk to. this has scum motivation bc it makes people less likely to want to scumread you. its not inherently scummy, but it is when it doesn't actually make town sense for you to do that there. one example is around post 290 and the following few posts with much. you had mueh as a top scumread before this, but once she started talking to you, you kinda started buddying her. it was a super weird interaction and i originally thought it could be s/s but i think it could just be t/s. this isn't the only instance of this, i think you also have done it with others, but it's the most significant for me

3) related to the above, i think you've gone out of your way to avoid interacting with people probably bc you know that you come off as awkward. you've ignored questions and haven't really engaged at all with the suspicions on you, and it seems like you're just hoping that they'll go away or people will get distracted by something else if you don't acknowledge them

4) your votes on val and marci feel opportunistic and are supported by p weak reasoning. it doesn't feel like you have any genuine scumreads and are happy to just go with the flow for the most part

[VP Baltar]

if this flips scum, probably nuke sircakez into the orbit

I'm actually slightly concerned Cakez is TMIing in his confidence about lavartown/marciscum.

That's exactly the shit I do as scum on D1 to gain authority D2.


@RR - I'd never lie 2 u bb.

[VP Baltar]

Cakez was my first scumping the other day, I don't like his ISO when I'm looking at it now, and while I don't feel confident that Lavar is town I feel better about Cakez being scum than Lavar being scum

I would last minute lim cakez if there is interest. His confidence on reads is way too high today for me to believe it is natural.

(Doesn't hurt he has tried to shit push me for days and didn't even bother to amend that read after his catch up posts)

[VP Baltar]

I may end up deferring to Mena's read here, but in the meantime... how many times have you played with town!Cakez? I think "confidence way too high to believe is natural" describes his towngame quite well.

I wouldn't say I have a good ability to meta read cakez. I tend to defer to others on that.

When I say I'm concerned about that confidence, it's based strictly on this game and how I think general scum play tends to break down.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

Sure. If this forces them to participate, let's do it.

[VP Baltar]

The notion of "forcing someone to participate" when we're a day from deadline is strange.

Not really? Scum are most vulnerable at the end of day.

Wolf pop in

[VP Baltar]

Ok but if Lava is scum why not just join the Datisi wagon outright?

Both scum perhaps

[VP Baltar]

@VPBaltar: your next post needs to be explaining how it makes sense to pressure vote someone one day before deadline.

I post more than anyone else, you really think I'm not going to be here if I need to change my vote back?

I wanted to pressure dwlee so I did. Wouldn't mind them dying even!

This is a silly line of questioning

[VP Baltar]

very clearly using bad logic wHy ArE yOu UsInG tHe NoTeS pT bAltEr?!?!?

Agree with this

To play devil's advocate, I do think that a town Datisi would be on the look our for an awkward mention of keeping notes on a game from Baltar, because he previously did a meta check on the fact whether Baltar comments on keeping note as scum.

Tanner=Datisi

Spoiler:

mmm, vp, you mentioned notes? what kinda notes are you keeping?

do you make notes in a similar fashion when you're scum?

because it's like, (1) i remember you once mentioning how you were taking notes when catching up in jungle oligarchy and (2) some details like that are something that almost never occurs to me to fake as scum so i'm like if *that* is a galaxy brain pocket then bruh

Tanner frantically ctrl+fing my scum games rn for the word "notes" to pull out an aha for some shit I don't remember saying because he is too afraid to power hammer imaginality.

first of all, fuck you, i wasn't ctrl+f'ing "note" in your scumgames from last year

second of all what in the everloving fuck is this:
viewtopic.php?p=11943578#p11943578
viewtopic.php?p=11956698#p11956698
viewtopic.php?p=11956705#p11956705
viewtopic.php?p=11956721#p11956721

like, the amount of "MY NOTES" is actually agh

though to be fair, it looks fairly more natural in jungle oligarchy where he was like "in my notes i have it that datisi's slot is totally scum" (it was not btw) and this game it looks more like "did i mention i have notes so very townie only townies have notes right?"

Just thinking on this, I actually think that this is actually kinda +town for Datisi. It is in line with something that I think that a town datisi would think about, but does not look like how scum!datisi would try to capitalize on it since he did not really try to push him for it, or bring up the meta that he had on the topic himself.

To reiterate what fire said, datisi would say something like that regardless of alignment.

I wasn't joking when I said it could be a scumslip though. There are pretty obvious town reasons this game to use the mod provided PT.

I am guessing this dwlee wagon has probably reached its peak support, so Lavar, you can consider my vote back on you and you should claim immediately.

[VP Baltar]

I think I just convinced myself that datisi is scum.

He is someone who regularly makes notes pts. I have actually read through a couple of his notes PTs before.

Me? I don't usually use PTs that I recall? Typically if I'm taking notes, its just in a text file on my computer.

Just using the PT in this game because it was already there and I'm a blabbermouth when I'm phone posting

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lavar

E-1 and probably logging off for the night.

[VP Baltar]

Is enchant on here? If no, that's why I was holding off the e-1, but lavar has had time to claim, so whatever

[VP Baltar]

=====[ ]
[ ]=====

[VP Baltar]

i am playing this game on lazy mode.

Tell me this is going to change soon.

[VP Baltar]

i am playing this game on lazy mode.

Tell me this is going to change soon.

not likely. maybe i'll get kicked into gear sooner if there's a spicy flip or two.

cool cool cool cool

*enters personal PT, cackling*

COOL COOL COOL COOL

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Fey

Why?

[VP Baltar]

Val, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts now that Datisi is dead.

Same for you marci, since you both kind of tunneled there to the exclusion of a lot else yesterday.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar immediately taking advantage of the death to shade other people

Yes, keep talking. You're going to get rocked here soon enough.

[VP Baltar]

Val, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts now that Datisi is dead.

I realise I am probably handing out a free mislim, but I think I am going to disappoint. I was obviously wrong about Datisi, and I'm glad that has been resolved early.

My main thought is that I have far too many null reads, and I have no reads stronger than a lean in either direction. I didn't have anytime to re-read overnight, but I think if there is anyone who can look me in the eye and tell me they have a strong handle on this game then they are either a much better player than me, or else are informed, frankly.

I changed my mind of Lukewarm over the course of the day yesterday, and the Lavar flip has done nothing to change my mind on the townlean I have on Marci. I had a couple of gut scum-pings, but I've just been reminded as to why I usually don't pay much heed to those.

For sure that it's not easy to get a read on the game state until we get some info to work off of, but when you have a chance to read, I'd like something like some scum reads from you please.

R&R is the one who never voted besides me, however, they are town.
Kovu is town imo.
I’m ok with a Luke & Marci town.

I really do need to reevaluate though and do a good reread, but that will be tomorrow most likely.

I don't love this. Luke is obv town. Kovu is likely town, so this feels fairly safe and not doing much. Mala, I'd like a little more from you today as well so I can be certain you're actually town here.

[VP Baltar]

Fairly puzzled by the nightkill. I think the fact that it was on someone who had barely posted at all is likely a sign that scum are feeling comfortable. Unenthused by guessing about where scum were voting. If you want to make a case based on people having scummy reasoning for their votes, go ahead, but just saying "I think scum were/weren't on some wagon" isn't really helpful.

I agree with this generally. The LLD kill to me looks like scum just taking a free pass on spilling any info last night given they really weren't here.

Luke is obv town.

what makes luke obvtown? have you played with him as scum/read any of his scum games?

He was scum in Prism's Guardians game, right? His play here seems much more proactive and looking for scum. I found myself agreeing with him fairly often yesterday, so there could be some bias at play, but I feel pretty good about Luke, Bell, you and a few others as town. Probably not ready to form a full on bloc yet, but I think a decent PoE could form today.

[VP Baltar]

Player	Votes
LavarManos (11)	gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), fireisredsir (800), Val89 (803), Meuh (822), Dwlee99 (953), Datisi (962), Bell (1014), Dunnstral (1090), VP Baltar (1123), Enchant (1134)
Dwlee99 (5)	Kovu (1009), Fey (1011), Lady Lambdadelta (1013), Gammagooey (1022), SirCakez (1034)
Datisi (2)	LavarManos (950), marcistar (1116)
Not Voting (2)	Malakittens (130), Rhyme and Reason (964)

I'm about here right now, readwise; I feel like a lot of these null ones will go one way or another throughout the day.

Few thoughts:

I don't think Dwlee's posts that you just quoted feel like town, Meuh. It's just justification for the Lavar votes and a bit of reconciliatory posting in 1054, but those don't do anything for me.

I also think LLD dying here means that she was the nightkill who shot Datisi, rather than the other way around. I think that points to what content she did give having been either 1) pointing correctly to Dwlee/Bell or 2) a frame, which... eh? I'm less inclined to think mafia wanted to frame than just kill someone who could exert a great deal of pressure on them when she's town.

Also I do think the Dwlee wagon is probably all pure, at max one scum on it. I'm working off the assumption that there are 4 scum in this game so maybe one on the Dwlee or not voting, the rest on the Lavar wagon to push it through because it really wasn't going anywhere. Probably in Gamma/Cakez if there is one but eh. I don't really feel like Kovu as scum just decides to start an EOD competing wagon to a town one. Just doesn't... feel like her from experience, but this is without a lot of back referencing.

Feels like I am doing some preflipping mentally so I'll sort that out through the day (Meuh scum attacking VP -> point to VP town but this is flimsy).

That's about it right now.

p-edit: I highly disagree with the idea that Lady's posting points to the people she voted being town. That seems backwards to me.

Curious why Luke is null range to you. You have a hard time reading him?

[VP Baltar]

What an ass day 1

I bet scum were all over the Lavar wagon the reasoning for it was so bad

I find it hard to believe that Cakez town read Lava as hard as he claimed day 1. I also didn't like the way that he engaged with the case on Lava itself.

It feels more like he is just trying hard to look like The Person Who Was Right.

VOTE: Cakez

Don't really agree, rarely seen scum take the angle of being overtly angry over a day 1 mis-elim. Think the passion is real but misplaced.

Talking shit on a townflip wagon is a pretty common scum tactic actually? What are you basing this thought on?

It reads as pretty benign comments, not "overtly angry"

[VP Baltar]

Hi baltar

What up bey, who we killing today?

[VP Baltar]

Can confirm Bell's confirmed town (even if I think we could have kept the guessing game going longer, but anyhow)

@VPB - How scummy did you actually think Datisi was at the end of yesterday? Don't need specific posts/reasons since he's dead but I wouldn't mind a touch more insight into the mind of VPB.

Mildly. Datisi's effort was kind of low D1 (likely due to real life), which had me a little concerned ... but not enough that I would have wanted to lim him. I also think invictusing him was kind of stupid. Though I teased him about it, I wouldn't have had the confidence to actually set my invictus there when there are much better targets

[VP Baltar]

I have an additional thing to say about datisi, but it doesn't change anything. Just marking it now for posterity.

[VP Baltar]

LavarManos (11) gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), fireisredsir (800), Val89 (803), Meuh (822), Dwlee99 (953), Datisi (962), Bell (1014), Dunnstral (1090), VP Baltar (1123), Enchant (1134)

Ok, now that Bell is out there, fmpov this wagon is a bit easier to assess.

We got Bell and Datisi confirm town. I'm town. I think Luke, Fire and possibly Dunn are town (though not certain on Dunn and trusting my gut for now.

That leaves:

Gorilla
Val
Meuh
Dwlee
Enchant

My prediction is that more than one person has enchant as an invictus target, though we can talk about merits of limming there if needed.

I'm personally most inclined to lim dwlee or Meuh from that list. Gorilla isn't exactly a town read. His play feels distanced from the game in a way, and I kind of still standby my "probably one scum in gorilla/gamma", but that's not a good reason to want Gorilla today. It is enough to warrant me rereading gorillas day 1 though.

VOTE: meuh

/streamofconsciouswriting

[VP Baltar]

Why do you have a townread on dunn? And more related to my last quote, what is your actual read on cakez?

As I said D1, I felt like dunn was being more proactive than he is as scum. I've caught him on that meta before. Of course, now he is doing fuck all kind of, so maybe he was trying to play against his meta, but couldn't keep it up?

I find Cakez more likely to be scum here. His reads are too confident for my taste. I also found his arguments for me being scum to be specious at best, and that's if I'm being extremely generous.


Pedit - @Luke, meuh hasn't been under much serious pressure this game and I'd like to see where that goes. Didn't like Meuh's entrance at all. They are saying things that are supposed to sound town, rather than giving an analysis that is town.

[VP Baltar]

now that we've established that VP Balter is wrong and bad

When I read your alignment incorrectly, you can use this line. Am I reading your alignment wrong?

[VP Baltar]

you asked me to make a towncase for RR even though I didn't townread them and i did

why did you do a towncase on someone you don't town read?

Also, lol, neighborhoods are basically playerlist trolling on this site now. Inevitable shit show.

I think you may have brought this up in another game, with me also saying you were wrong in that game

And yet, I had your alignment correct in that game too. Maybe I am just the dunn whisperer.

[VP Baltar]

Dang, y'all got busy since last night. Catching up here.

I was being hyperbolic, kind of was my intent at the start of the day to get people shaken up immediately and it seems to have worked considering the spooky threat VPB made

I don't think you're shaking things up so much as saying pointless things. The "threat" i made to you was intended as a breadcrumb that I had information and to make you squirm. Bell unfortunately spilled the beans too fast.

now that we've established that VP Balter is wrong and bad

When I read your alignment incorrectly, you can use this line. Am I reading your alignment wrong?

No but you got to it in the wrong way. It's like you incorrectly flipped my alignment twice and the result is that you got me as town, but you still used two faulty premise that should both make you think the other way. And combined they cancelled out.

I think activity is bad meta on me. I've shown that I can be active as both town and scum, and inactive as both town and scum.

I think you may have brought this up in another game, with me also saying you were wrong in that game

It's actually kind of weird Dunn is getting so twisted about me reading his alignment correctly for the "wrong" reasons. What is the point of this honestly?

i personally found them town was cause i liked their read on cakez who at the time i thought was likely scum, and said that if I was wrong on cakez then RR would be less towny

Current read on Cakez?

hmm ok frick I might be wrong on fire... shouldn't have outed that.. rip but SS AN Mena doing nothing? like that case I still firmly believe in, so I'll just stay therefor a bit, cause this silence from everyone has me thinking fire might be town, cause scum is not going to disrupt TvT arguments..

VOTE: RR

I'll figure my life out later, but this is definitely scum

No bad.

*squirts water bottle*

Why is this bad? IDGI

Baltar immediately taking advantage of the death to shade other people

Is that bad? Wouldn't a townie be looking to derive new information from the flip?

Fairly puzzled by the nightkill. I think the fact that it was on someone who had barely posted at all is likely a sign that scum are feeling comfortable.

Yes, but I'm not really sure what scumteam wouldn't be feeling comfortable here, or who could really be killed to allay that discomfort even if they were. LLD is a pretty scary player if town, most people here probably know that, so I don't really think it can be read into that much.

all I can say is I didn't understand the purpose of the posting gimmick

I saw the reference to it in the setup post, thought it would be funny, then decided it would be a great way to keep our post count down (as a hydra in a post-limited game I was worried about using up too many of our posts and depriving my partner of the ability to say more valuable things). He loved it and then that was that. But then we were both V/LA for three days anyway so the postcount thing was moot

I also think LLD dying here means that she was the nightkill who shot Datisi, rather than the other way around.

This is mildly +town I think

huh in what way? in my mind scum would avoid killing people who scumread them, so they don't die

This seems like reasonably sound logic, though not 100% conclusive. Not necessarily for all time, but on Night 1, after a mislim, it probably is something scum can afford to think about, since they were likely feeling comfortable anyway.

my first reaction to this post was "well, dunn is town" but tbh showing up only after people start pushing on him means i proooobably shouldn't let him off that easy, even though i want to. idk

Dunn is being super super Dunn this game. Normally he is quiet and witty and down-to-earth, and I feel like he's doing all those things more than he usually does. Maybe just because I haven't played with him in a while.

My approach to him is generally "keep him around a while because he's usually good for the gamestate and then he'll either die or get sorted mechanically", however I feel like I very often die early when he's scum, so I'm not sure that that approach is actually that effective. Fortunately I'm only half of this hydra so maybe Mena will have a better idea.

there were many times Mena was like "I need to talk to ss about that" umm excuse me.. SS voted lava, and ss never told you why? like fire and I were literally discussing reads yet apparently mena and SS weren't, SS and mena conviniently had no reaction to the Dwlee wagon?

no, he was pretty absent for most of the day yesterday so we never really discussed anything in private. I generally don't feel the need to talk about reads privately with my hydra partner, I can just post my reads in the thread instead.

Why is having no reaction to the Dwlee wagon convenient? Wouldn't it be more convenient to have a reaction that would later be shown to be right? (i.e. "this wagon is bad, dwlee is town" if they are town, or "this is a good wagon" if they are scum)

-Reason

This post is a whole lot of words to do very little scumhunting.

------------------

I actually cant believe there are multiple people on mafiascum-dot-net calling Cakez town because he said D1 was "ass." Legit the stupidest shit I've heard in a long time, and each time I read it, it is like space lasers in my eyes. Cakez pushed multiple confirmed towns D1 (Datisi, Bell) and was absolutely way too confident about a lavar read. That is not a reason to townread someone.

---------------------

The reasoning for marci being scum seems rather tenuous to me. Of course maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it. That happens a lot.

Gorilla/Marci S/S?

VOTE: Gorilla
I'm willing to try this out Enchant, don't let me down

Why are you sheeping enchant?

Making a vote on me because you think I

could

be scum with marci seems rather backwards, no?

I skimmed your ISO and it's a whole lot of questions with no follow-up to look busy and for the amount of posts you've made, there's not much that actually looks like scumhunting.

I think I've been acting with a purpose for most of the game and if you can't see that, that's your problem. I was wrong on Lavar but I took a chance and swung there, still think it was an entirely reasonable day 1 kill and I'm not terribly convinced any of the other wagons on day 1 were on the right track.

I've been keeping a lot of my reads to my notes and only mentioned them when necessary, but I'm pretty sure I

have

mentioned them. However, I've also openly been bored with the game since mid day 1, so I don't necessarily blame you if I feel like I'm "not doing much". But it's still on you to actually learn to read people better, if you're town.

Do you think Meuh is town?

I think that it's decently clearing for dwlee that lld was the kill

I don't follow. explain.

Since when am I sheeping? I already said Enchant's vote prompted me to reevaluate you, and I drew my own conclusions from there.

omfg, is this supposed to be tstbs?

I think it's very interesting, like you guys are all "just invictus enchant!!" or "enchant is scum!!!" just enchant goes "Gorilla maf" and now all of a sudden everyone is like "yeah!!" like, why did you have to wait for enchant for you to actually do something?
"Since when am I sheeping? I already said..."
ummm you waited for enchant.. yeah it falls into the category of sheeping, like, sure I definitely agree with gorilla being suspicious. for sure. but this wagon coming from a town (collective unit) where many yall are actively like "enchant isn't town!!" like, that feels really odd to me, also as long as gorilla continues to be like one of the only ones actively doing anything, I'm not voting gorilla d2

hard agree with all this.

I hate that Luke is using me being correct about my Lavar read as the reason because it's like saying that I wasn't actually good enough to have just read Lavar correctly

To me, it's not that you were correct, but that you came to that town read very strongly without very good reasoning, and that you're now trying to use being correct on Lavar as a cudgel. You're playing an angle on that wagon that is very convenient if you're scum.

I think enchant is relatively likely to be town based on a few things he's said

Can I get you to cite your work here, please.

I'm not really close to clearing dwlee, I'm just not sure they're who I want to wagon right away today based on the nightkill.

WIFOMing the NK is stupid, especially one as devoid of information as LLD. This exact discussion is its own reason why an LLD kill would have been a good idea.

That said, I do think that NKA can be pretty powerful when done right, all the more so when scum don't see it coming. I haven't actually reread LLD's ISO to figure out how telegraphed a Dwlee invictus was, but if it was extremely telegraphed, I think that definitely is a point in Dwlee's favor.

The ISO is like 6 posts. Why are you spouting off on something so much if you haven't even read it?

Who here is familiar with lld? Because given how little she'd done so far, I think that kill is much more likely to come from someone who knows her reputation. Here, the main names that occur to me are gorilla/dunn/Bell/Baltar/Cakez. Bell is clear, seemingly, so that leaves me with a likely scum in (gorilla/dunn/Cakez).

this seems extremely narrow to me in an odd way. LLD is a fairly known player on site, ive never played with her and yet i know her reputation. i would be surprised if other people in this game who have been around longer than i have don't have that same experience. why not Fey, dwlee, even luke, or VP/gamma (i remember VP and gamma talking to LLD in the signup thread in a familiar way)? and at that point you're at 9 names and saying that there is most likely to be 1 scum in 9 people is... not super useful. of course it's actually 10, but it makes sense that you would exclude yourself

the main point though is how you managed to narrow that list down to those 3 or 4. given no further explanation as to why certain names were excluded, it seems intentional

+1

@Meuh, your points on page 52 felt like solid enough reasons for you to think that marci is scum, and I can even see where you got to gorilla being a possible partner - but why in this scenario would you go for gorilla first over marci?

3 reasons:

1. I think we get more info out of pressuring Gorilla, who has mostly been left alone this game, than Marci, who’s been pushed a bunch already. It felt like it’d contribute more and advance the game more to vote for Gorilla. (which I stand by, Gorilla’s last few posts are juicier info than whatever Marci’s response would’ve been)
2. I’m interested in giving more merit to the ideas low activity players are putting out, to hopefully make them engage with the game more and/or get info on that player from the way the push goes from there. Similar to why I decided to vote with Lavar in 296.
3. Until we’re at a stage at the day where we’re headed towards is to lim someone, I like having some high impact votes, and that vote on Gorilla would be high impact. For the way it goes against a lot of people’s views on the game, and also since Enchant already had a vote there, making it more meaningful.

garbage

why was datisi town... i really thought he was scum i feel so useless maybe i shouldnt be so one minded

VOTE: val89

Do you scumread Dwlee?

Where is Bell's "role confirmation"?

I received a message from the mod overnight confirming Bell. He is clearly a friendly neighbor. (Answer's Luke's request as well)

vip balter.

town

[VP Baltar]

It's literally what you're doing with dunn. You just posted about.

[VP Baltar]

is enchant scum likely at all?

Yes, it is likely.

[VP Baltar]

is enchant scum likely at all?

Yes, it is likely.

oh why did u think so?

Town enchant is freer and tosses votes around a lot more. This enchant knows he is probably going to get invictused and is trying to keep his head down mostly. That's my read based upon recent games I've played with enchant town.

I think he also said something D1 about not posting because he was worried about the post restriction, which is like...

there's a reason why im hesitant on him and its probably dumb

Maybe you and kovu can talk about this in your PT if you're not wanting to say publicly.

[VP Baltar]

I didn't know that because I hadn't read it Also, I generally like to engage people using their own assumptions, because it's valuable to understand why someone thinks what they do even if they have the facts wrong.

Except this entire theory is based on LLD having a single vote on Dwlee. It's literally the only thing. I don't see what the value is entertaining poorly reasoned theories and even promulgating those ideas. What is the purpose instead of just looking at the ISO before you make a comment to see if the thing the person is even saying rings true?

VP, Cakez is town, that day 1 never comes from scum!cakez, like, that dwlee stuff too? yeah maybe if you read the ISO you'd see it. ever think fire is so hesitent cause it's my top tr? wooow shocking idea, we've discussed all yall tbh, but yeah, cakez is definitely town, like most of yall ignore anything I say, like 1008, Cakez did not have to say anything as scum, instead went "Yeah it was a really bad Dwlee post" like, actually agreeing with me? and then like people were FLYING to that wagon. I'm honestly still convinced Dwlee flips scum, and like scum saw town cakez and I go "dwlee maf" (scum in this world is always Gamma) Gamma was doing everything in their power to get us to go to enchant instead of Dwlee, so like, I really wanna flip Dwlee scum into Gamma scum, that I'm for CERTAIN on happens. but besides the point, cakez is my top TRP this game, Datisi was next TR, but dead now so since I was right on datisi, my confidence on the cakez tr is through the roof. I mean, I can try and put together something more "comprehendable" but Cakez's ISO is ALWAYS town, and then like seald the deal with "what an ass d1" like, scum does not say that right before a VT flip...

We're gonna disagree on this and Enchant. Your way of reading the game is extremely personal to you and often based on you thinking your takes are 100% right, which I've seen you be wrong on before more than once. Cakez is acting like scum according to who he is pushing and his reasoning for doing so. Tell your boy to start acting right if he expects a town read from me.

So you two are talking about Meuh then, but referring to them as town (collective unit) and implying that this is a thing multiple people are doing.

That gorilla wagon looks like a fucking dumpster fire, even if I don't think gorilla looks outstanding this game. I agree with you he is being like wall paper and attacking people for doing that, but being a hypocrite doesn't necessarily make you scum. I would like to reread gorilla today, because I think he might have had some interesting interactions around lavar if I'm remembering correctly, and that seems like a richer vein if we are looking at gorilla scum motivations.

Dunn, what's your take on Cakez please.

[VP Baltar]

Malakittens, where are you exactly? Since you're saying this is your town game, figured you'd be engaging a lot more.

[VP Baltar]

What about you being able to confirm that Bell is town would have meuh "get rocked" for suspecting you?

I think the way I played that is pretty obviously town, which of course I'm subjective about, but objectively, if I'm scum and get that message, I doubt I come out immediately and start crumbing before Bell posts. Scum!VP would have waited for Bell to make the first move before posting. So ultimately, I think Meuh looks worse for attacking me baseless at day start.

[VP Baltar]

i feel like using the post restriction as a reason to not post is pretty scummy, i dont think enchants active enough in games to have to worry about hitting 125, so i feel like enchant could be just making excused

I do need to fact check this point before we get too committed to it here. I'm going off memory, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct.

[VP Baltar]

What about you being able to confirm that Bell is town would have meuh "get rocked" for suspecting you?

I think the way I played that is pretty obviously town, which of course I'm subjective about, but objectively, if I'm scum and get that message, I doubt I come out immediately and start crumbing before Bell posts. Scum!VP would have waited for Bell to make the first move before posting. So ultimately, I think Meuh looks worse for attacking me baseless at day start.

Why do I look worse? I don't exactly get the point here. Do I look worse simply because you think that you look more like a townie; because of the way you handled the Bell confirmation?

This and the PoE on the Lavar wagon is now smaller, improving odds you are scum here.

[VP Baltar]

For Datisi's death you can ignore all the WIFOM shenanigans that usually come with night kill analysis since the D2 mod-post extremely strongly suggests they were LLD's Invictus target, and I feel like you especially might get more out of it (assuming you're town) going over his D1 posting and other people's comments on him now that you know 100% that he was town - if you have time to reread a bit let me know what you think.

Someone help me figure out if this is a real or fake town slip

What's the slip?

[VP Baltar]

Not knowing if Datisi or LLD is the scum kill

This was already brought up earlier, so I don't think it accounts for much (not that I would even if it was the first time).

[VP Baltar]

Have been hesitant to reveal that i am a PR for obvious reasons, but also worried that if I don't say something I might just guess wrong and be useless anyways.

I think coordinating seems like the best play then? The odds of guessing the same target randomly seems low.

[VP Baltar]

Or, we could all collectively agree on an invictus target for the night, and then I could spot check for someone lying?

That's interesting, but gives scum a free night if we choose wrong. Would be epic if town all picked a correct scum though

[VP Baltar]

I didn't like the tone of VPB esp when he was talking to Meuh. It just felt off. Like majority.

...

VOTE: meuh

How do these two things make sense? You think I'm scum with Meuh?

[VP Baltar]

What do you make of cakez and dwlee? Also, are you reading the game? Bell is confirmed town.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: cakez

[VP Baltar]

Ergo, unless I am completely wrong about that being a soft, in which case I expect Mala to correct me immediately, RR is as conftown

Just want to say, I think you're mayne taking this further than is reliable. There is probably an argument to be made that mala is town because of this, but I don't get the sense from reading between the lines that this is clearing info on RR. Would like that on record so there are not bad assumptions being made later in the game.

Happy to be proven wrong, but we should not assume clears on people unless we have explicit reason to believe so.

[VP Baltar]

That's a lot of bad assumptions in one post. I also feel like you're info fishing a bit and I don't like it. Mala should hard clear if that's the case, but if not, we should probably just leave this for a later game discussion, imo.

[VP Baltar]

Mala softest hard enough, that she should just out whatever info she has.

No

[VP Baltar]

The argument has two parts: (1) LLD's ISO pointed to scumreading Dwlee, and (2) assuming that LLD's ISO pointed to scumreading Dwlee, a team with Dwlee wouldn't kill her. (1) is at the very least under debate, I don't think it's clearly false, which means that the argument might have merit if (2) is true. Thus establishing that I believe (2) is valuable as long as (1) isn't obviously false, which it isn't.

1) the only thing I saw in her iso that strongly pointed to a dwlee scum read was a single vote. That's some absolute weak shit to hang your theory on.

2) no, it doesn't because there are other players on the scum team, as well as other factors to consider, such as scum PRs and how well positioned other scum players are. Saving dwlee, who was wagoned D1, is not a given as a priority.

This post lacks Reason entirely, and I hope you are ashamed. I have no clue why you are trying to push a theory that is demonstrably without significant merit.

[VP Baltar]

But if Gammagooey was scum surely they'd know that LLD was the nightkill and therefore Datisi was the invictus, which is why it's a town slip

It was already discussed in the thread though. If you're using that logic, you should apply it to whoever was the first confused person (which I don't recall off the top of my head).

I also just think that's such an easy thing to fake it's kind of pointless, but you do you

[VP Baltar]

Mala softest hard enough, that she should just out whatever info she has.

No

Well, do tou think mala saying "me and r&r are town" is enough for both mala and r&r to be taken off the table? Because I don't.

I don't. But I also don't think we need to lim either of them today. I think there is enough info leak today, so pushing for more isn't super helpful.

Town players tend to overvalue the info they have in my experience. I've definitely done it! So unless it is an absolute HARD clear we are talking about, such as Bell, we should just table it for now. It's likely more to scum benefit in narrowing the pool of useful town PRs if we give up too much info.

[VP Baltar]

Town players tend to overvalue the info they have in my experience. I've definitely done it!

Who is it you are calling town, here?

I'm speaking generally. We are talking about malakittens' implied info about RR in specifics though.

[VP Baltar]

Cakez's D1, in particular his push on my slot, was pretty much exactly what I expect his towngame to look like. I don't know how well he can replicate that, but given that it often gets him into trouble, I wouldn't expect him to make an effort to replicate it as scum? Though of course I'm not totally sure.

I would think you being town would make Cakez look worse in your eyes, given that he would have then pushed you and two confirmed town players (also threw shit at me), all while being wildly overconfident Lavar was town pre-flip. That's a lot of red flags in my book. It's confusing you are reaching an opposite conclusion there without something you feel is absolutely outside his scum range.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, this sure does look like you are saying that you don't think they should be taken off the table, but you also are perfectly happy taking them off the table.

Not really. We are talking about two different things. Taking then off the table, to me, is a gamelong decision. What I am saying is they are not my preferred lim choice today, so there is little value in pushing for more info right now.

Fwiw, my preferred lims are very close to your own, with my strongest preference for either Cakez or dwlee.

[VP Baltar]

He often makes weird pushes and is overly confident in things as town.

Are his reads terrible too? That's not necessarily my experience with Cakez

[VP Baltar]

The strength it takes of me to open this game.

You can just sheep me. Vote cakez. We can also kill dwlee

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

[VP Baltar]

I specifically said that it seems weird that there is no hint at re-evaluating Me.

Especially given the context of how I have been approaching this game when compared to the people you are scum reading.

You have a pretty good PR claim why would I reevaluate you at this point? I feel fine townbinning you unless some evidence comes up you're fakeclaiming

It seems like Luke's role could equally be a scum role. Not sure what as described makes it town for sure. It comes down to whether you read his play as town, imo.

[VP Baltar]

Monke brain

[VP Baltar]

I might prefer Dunn at this point tbh

What's tipping you toward Dunn over dwlee?

[VP Baltar]

I might prefer Dunn at this point tbh

What's tipping you toward Dunn over dwlee?

I recall there being some things I slightly liked about Dwlee's ISO but I need to give it a second glance
As for Dunn they've just been kinda meh all around

I'll await your further review and more details.

@Bell - thoughts on dwlee?

[VP Baltar]

Who are your scum reads and why dwlee?

[VP Baltar]

I feel the manner of his claiming was town. Like it makes sense to me why he claimed it from the town mindset

I'm slightly skeptical of this, but alright.

[VP Baltar]

RR going fairly silent recently is interesting

[VP Baltar]

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

I agree with Dunn that this is what we in the business call a 'weak shit post' from dwlee.


Based on my very recent experience of being scum locked in a 1v1 against town Dwlee, I will say the last several pages don't strike me as town Dwlee. When I had to fight dwlee in KTANE, it was terrible because they were relentless! Admittedly, I made a misplay based on greed, but they actively punished me in thread for that and I got limmed. Dwlee here is coasting and not attacking whoever they think are scum running them up. It's a very different attitude to pressure.

[VP Baltar]

I basically had a guilty on you, there's a difference in my level of confidence here

Eh, maybe. But you also would know you're not scum here, and that's a big part of confidence. I don't really feel like you're necessarily scum hunting. I get going after dunn to some degree since it is you or him basically. But I feel like town you would have a broader net and be looking for who is pushing you in bad faith. I just don't see that here.

Pedit - taking this Meuh post under consideration shortly.

[VP Baltar]

Whom knows!

Psychopathy

[VP Baltar]

Last sentence kinda confusing. I want to vote cakez or my new shiny scumread more than Dunn

Fwiw, I still want cakez dead. If we do flip you and you're town, I'll avenge you on this point.

[VP Baltar]

If people want to kill Meuh I’ll entertain the wagon.

Why do you want it is the question?

[VP Baltar]

I'm fairly invested in a dwlee flip tbh. I don't think they are addressing this pressure well, and there is a lot of info to be gained in that flip. Meuh is bad, but is almost so aloof I think it is town.

[VP Baltar]

I'm fairly invested in a dwlee flip tbh. I don't think they are addressing this pressure well, and there is a lot of info to be gained in that flip. Meuh is bad, but is almost so aloof I think it is town.

i thought meuh's response to me earlier was p decent but i feel like she kinda dipped down a bit once the pressure on her was gone and that feels a little scummy to me

Yeah, I could totally be wrong, but I felt their response to pressure was kind of town spewy, which was why I moved on from there. I also just think a dwlee or cakez flip tells us a lot associatives than a Meuh flip.

[VP Baltar]

Where dafuq is Cakez?

[VP Baltar]

Cakez is not maf

Incorrect

[VP Baltar]

I mean, I have info that I'm almost certain clears cakez so yeah, he's not being limmed here

Remember in Ktane when you lied multiple times as town. You should stop doing that.

[VP Baltar]

This is an annoying fight we can have tomorrow. Let's lim dwlee and just get some info then.

[VP Baltar]

This is an annoying fight we can have tomorrow. Let's lim dwlee and just get some info then.

You also ignored me. What are you going to do with my flip that you can't do right now? Do you have no thoughts on the duplicate interaction between Andante and I from last game to this game?

Well, I think you flip scum, and then I look at who didn't want you dead, and who did, and why, and then I assess who is most likely to be your scum buddy. I don't have any reason to do that work right now until I see your flip.

You can call me lazy if you'd like, but it's a pretty absurd demand to be like "analyze my flip before I flip."

[VP Baltar]

Except I'm gonna flip town and regardless of my alignment you'll go "woops guess dwlee should have been townier" and we are just wasting a day phase

I don't think that is how I play as town at all. If I fuck up, I tend to just own my mistakes.

I will spend some time tomorrow giving you and Dunn another read because I'm not gonna be an asshole who just dismisses you here. But fair warning, I've been reading the game fairly closely even as I've been pretty busy the last couple days, and I haven't found your responses to pressure very persuasive.

[VP Baltar]

Sample size scum=1, town=3 VP Baltar only says fair warning as scum

please go read the setup again.

Fair warning, in games like this, I'll probably ask lots of dumb questions about the setup/mechanics.

Certified stupid reason to catch someone but if anyone wants to check more games that'd be epic

Haha, I cannot believe town you would think verbal tics are a legit scum tell.


Anyhow, my thoughts on Meuh were possibly scum for part of this day, but their thought process is so illogical to me, it feels like town spewing at points, particularly when Meuh was the lead wagon earlier.

[VP Baltar]

How about specifically 1365 and 1727

I will give these a read in depth again tomorrow.

@gorilla - idk, seems like a desperation move to me

[VP Baltar]

What's the move here as scum? To convince people to vote you using a case that is likely to be viewed as reachy? To get people like me to see it as towny?

I think, as scum, it is a two fold benefit. It gives the appearance of scum hunting (they are still pushing this as valid, mind you), and if there I'd any merit to what they are saying it shades me as potentially having ulterior motives to push dwlee. They said they think I might be more scummy than Meuh after all!

Town can act desperately, you're right. However, is that desperation being made in good faith is the question. Dwlee is a very smart person, so I am going to treat my assessments with that in mind. I have a hard time believing they think scum broadly are more likely to use particular words than town. They are using a mathblade example (which I'm skeptical is even true) as an indictment on me. It's lazy and convenient. The same thing happened when dwlee attacked dunn using cakez' argument and then said 'whoopsie, that's not true'.

It's street fight logic: use any weapon you have. The problem is that dwlee isn't even checking what they are saying first to see if it is accurate. That's where my problem is.

[VP Baltar]

I’m still gut tunneled on Baltar.

Sorry.

I just hope you are better at using an invictus shot than you are at playing confirmed town.

[VP Baltar]

There is no guarantee in particular that the one role in this game that could be non-standard is the same exact role, or the same exact alignment. I don't much doubt he's being truthful in his claim that his role does something but significantly doubt it is a town-aligned power, particular in concert with how he is playing this game.

Did you respond or note to me pointing out cakez trying to quick clear Luke on this point? I found that very suss, and possibly linking of their alignments.

I do think Luke's role could easily be scum aligned, and he was trying to get a super power. Speaking of the doctor-nerfing aspects, could be scum need to guess a town invictus target like that to gain invictus protection abilities. Would be a decent risk-reward mechanic to build in. /wildassspeculation

[VP Baltar]

Sample size scum=1, town=3 VP Baltar only says fair warning as scum

please go read the setup again.

Fair warning, in games like this, I'll probably ask lots of dumb questions about the setup/mechanics.

Certified stupid reason to catch someone but if anyone wants to check more games that'd be epic

Haha, I cannot believe town you would think verbal tics are a legit scum tell.


Anyhow, my thoughts on Meuh were possibly scum for part of this day, but their thought process is so illogical to me, it feels like town spewing at points, particularly when Meuh was the lead wagon earlier.

I've seen people caught with verbal tics before

Ex. MathBlade used to have a penchant for calling people "teapot reads" when scum

This is you justifying a dumb shit smear campaign that had just been disproven immediately.

you're trying to pull every smear in the book and you want me to take you seriously as being town.

I'm trying to extend you the benefit of the doubt here and was about to do some rereading to make sure I'm not being biased, but right when I open MS.net after my morning work, I see you're back at it. It's like you're actively trying to troll me.

[VP Baltar]

How about specifically 1365 and 1727

On 1365 - I think I already stated I hated Meuh pushing gorilla over Marci and I thought that was pretty dumb logic. At least I think I did? Meuh made that post not too long after I voted there, and I was pretty satisfied with my vote for awhile as Meuh kept pedaling.

As far as post 1727 - I think Meuh is commenting on things that aren't necessarily alignment indicative for the most part. The one point I do agree with is you being slightly bad faith in your discussion with fire, which is the partner I keep seeing from you here this game. You also did it with Dunn and the Cakez point and you're doing it with me and the verbal tic/whatever fucking trip you're on right now.

So why does that keep happening?


I'm not entirely against the idea of Meuh being scum here, but it is pretty hard for me to take you seriously when you've shown a pattern of bad faith arguments this game. My hang up, if I'm being fully transparent, is that I'm slightly concerned you are overcommitted with this game and RL, and are sort of flailing at anyone suspecting you. Unfortunately, I've been in that position before as town, and it is hard to get out of. I don't want to misyeet you if you're town, but I need more from you than baseless attacks.

I have a few other things on my reread agenda, so I'm putting a pin in this point for now.

[VP Baltar]

*which is the pattern

[VP Baltar]

I was wrong on Lavar but I took a chance and swung there, still think it was an entirely reasonable day 1 kill and

I'm not terribly convinced any of the other wagons on day 1 were on the right track

.

Doing some review on Gorilla, and I think his lavar vote/pressure mostly looks like a consistent train of the thought.

The one thing that strikes me a bit weird here gorilla is the bolded part. Gorilla can you tell me a little bit more about why you think this? Obviously we had the lavar mislim, which you were a semi-driver on and I don't really begrudge you for that, but how are you arriving at the idea that no wagons D1 were good?

[VP Baltar]

Val, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts now that Datisi is dead.

Same for you marci, since you both kind of tunneled there to the exclusion of a lot else yesterday.

Oh ok, you’re scum

Baltar immediately taking advantage of the death to shade other people

Doing some rereading of Meuh. This open to the day is still fucking terrible. My hang up with Meuh is are they just too scummy to be scum. There is a lot disconnected from reality in their reads...but like scum wouldn't keep dumping nonsense like that in thread right? If I was Meuhs' partner, I'd be telling them to stfu.

Meuh, can you explain for me how you got from this:

gorilla - They feel solvey so whatever, I'm willing to believe they're town for now

To this:

The reasoning for marci being scum seems rather tenuous to me. Of course maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it. That happens a lot.

Gorilla/Marci S/S?

VOTE: Gorilla
I'm willing to try this out Enchant, don't let me down

All in the span of 12 hours?

[VP Baltar]

are you shot limited Luke? A simple yes or no is fine.

[VP Baltar]

That much was obvious. Fully okay with sending you to graveyard over this.

we should force him to kill a town preferred target first, yeah?

[VP Baltar]

I also somewhat presume it doesn't actually work on partners or it'd be outright broken, but we'll see, I guess.

failure to deliver on the town-selected target is a death sentence then. Will be glad to vote Luke out if he can't kill.

[VP Baltar]

gorilla, did you make a Dunn case? I'm onto that phase, and if there is a succinct summation (or even just bullet points), I'd be much obliged.

pedit -- @ Meuh, I don't recall complaining about you overexplaining things. I will give this a read though.

pedit x2 - you think he sniped you? I mean, if so, that's a good reason to kill Luke. Luke, is that the case?

[VP Baltar]

Meuh, can you explain for me how you got from this:

You know that part of 1589 (point 4) you complained about being overexplained? That’s what it was explaining

The issue I have is that you don't say or express any of that stuff between your town read and your vote. Some of it comes AFTER your vote, such as your insinuation at the marci/gorilla partnership...but it's not the reason you changed your mind because you hadn't done any of that work.

So again, what in that 12 hour time span made you flip 180 on gorilla? Was it just that you were sheeping enchant?

[VP Baltar]

For the record, if Luke legitimately believed I was scum and was going to vig me by twinning with Dunn, I don't think there's any chance in hell he'd actually announce it in-thread, because mafia have invictus too and doing so would invite a reprisal. More likely he's trying to justify a kill that would otherwise earn him the ire of the people townreading me. It's all very performative and telegraphed.

Luke, I'd like your response to this because it is a legitimate point.

[VP Baltar]

Dunn, what do you think of this turn of events from Luke?

General question, if Luke does vig gorilla, then gorilla gets to use his invictus, correct? As I'm thinking about it, it's slightly confusing to say Luke's kill is an auto-trigger invictus when the first kill part is essential to what an invictus is. What Luke is describing is more like a gained vig shot.

[VP Baltar]

Dunn, what do you think of this turn of events from Luke?

General question, if Luke does vig gorilla, then gorilla gets to use his invictus, correct? As I'm thinking about it, it's slightly confusing to say Luke's kill is an auto-trigger invictus when the first kill part is essential to what an invictus is. What Luke is describing is more like a gained vig shot.