I R REPLACE POKEMAN PERSON!
ME REED TO CACH UP WIT U'ALL
ME RANDOM VOTE NOW!
ME TALK MOR L8R
I'm sorry then, I thought you were advocating said policy lynch. That is my error then.armlx wrote:I realize, I was more commenting on how you said he would be scummy if he active lurked, rather then just worthless and null.You say that like I didn't understand the situation before you said it. I'm not going to easy lynch anyone based on an out of game reason. When you start moving out of game for primary reasons you set a very poor precedent that I for one won't follow.
Mind explaining why you think its a null tell?forbiddanlight wrote:Well, Nat is certainly an idiot. But, his role is a null tell for his alignment. Part of me wants to vote him because of Mind Screw II, but that's probably screwing myself...
There was nothing magical about it. I gave my reasons for my vote, explained as much as I felt I needed to, and voted him. Cybele immediately following like he's attached to my ass is more on him than on me.forbiddanlight wrote:And then I notice that Cybele and Kinetic magically jump on Nat. And there are two survivors...
I almost want to think it wouldn't be this obvious.
But, either way, asking the survivors to claim, while likely futile, isn't scummy. We can deal with Nat later (I think). I'm happy with
Unvote, vote Cybele
HoS Kinetic
Ah, what a perfect example of Ad hominem without being aggressive (which it seems many people on this forum incorrectly assume is needed for an Ad hominem attack).forbiddanlight wrote:I'm pretty sure the people jumping on Nat with those BS reasons are likely survivors.
First off, you're making guesses on exactly what Nat's role is. Meanwhile, I know I don't know, and I have suspicions, so I want him to clarify them. The fact that you ALSO feel the SAME means you should ALSO be asking the SAME questions I am and not giving him a free pass!forbiddanlight wrote:Well, first, it's a tar game. That's all you really need
Mind explaining why you think its a null tell?
But further, what alignment is a survivor hunter to you? pro town? pro scum? Third party? I don't know about you, but I could find cause to put it in any of these three.
Previously:forbiddanlight wrote:Hey listen. You and Cybele aren't connected, nor did I ever say you are. I in fact, intimated that you were both survivors. So, let's see what the survivor role is. A third party that tries to last to endgame, wins with any faction as long as they are alive. I highly doubt you two are connected. Don't try to make it look like I am connecting you. That's a strawman, k thx.
There was nothing magical about it. I gave my reasons for my vote, explained as much as I felt I needed to, and voted him. Cybele immediately following like he's attached to my ass is more on him than on me.
As for your obvious attempts to link the two of us together, maybe you should do a little more research. In my first serious post of this game (123) I noted the very thing everyone is voting Cybele for and FOSed him for it. 7 posts before Arlex voted for Cybele, which was his first vote.
forbiddenlight wrote:...notice that Cybele and Kinetic...
You are connecting us together, both implicitly and explicitly. Just because you're linking us together as survivors and not mafia does not mean you did not EXPLICITLY argue a link. Even in your rebuttal you used the SAME link to try and prove you didn't make a link. In fact you VOTED Cybele even though by your own admission you don't think that he's scum! If you DIDN'T think he was scum then why did you vote for him? All you have is a possibility that he MIGHT be a survivor based on an argument I made and that he (albeit way too quickly) agreed with.forbiddenlight wrote:...
Unvote, vote Cybele
HoS Kinetic
There is no strawman in my argument.forbiddenlight wrote:I in fact, intimated that you were both survivors.
For someone who cries strawman so quickly you don't realize when you make the same argument. Anyway, I stated my intent with my vote is not to push for his lynch at this time but to pressure him into revealing more about his role because the little tidbit he did give was so vague that he COULD be scum or he COULD be town, but without more information its just hugely bad for town.forbiddenlight wrote:Oh, and bussing doesn't look good. Why is Nat as a survivor hunter auto scumming him again?
If you want to have a logical fallacy-off, I can play that game too, but it's just a distraction. I show you how your argument is a fallacy, you show me how mine could be a fallacy, blah blah blah. In the meantime the scum win. I'm going to end it here and now before it becomes a distraction.forbiddenlight wrote:Speaking of fallacies, you engaged in one of the most incredible strawmans I have ever seen.Ah, what a perfect example of Ad hominem without being aggressive (which it seems many people on this forum incorrectly assume is needed for an Ad hominem attack).
You either disagree with my conclusions or otherwise don't believe they are right, but instead of arguing against them you make an attack against me (he's most likely a survivor, thus he must be wrong not because the argument is wrong, but because he's a survivor.)
Sorry, that doesn't fly, and for trying to tie me to Cybele without doing a little research which would show that very unlikely, and using a fallacious argument to try and discredit me further I FOS:forbiddenlight.
This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. If his ONLY alignment was survivor killer, that might be just a null tell. But he isn't acting like that at all! By his OWN ADMISSION!forbiddenlight wrote: But, this does imply third party. However, given the two win conditions, you could be aligned elsewhere as well...confusing :S.
FoS: Nat
Why has no one else picked up on that besides me? I'm glad that you can be objective enough to step back and realize he's acting scummy, now you need to actually put some pressure on him so that he'll stop dodging the questions and start providing some answers.Natirasha wrote:Yes. And it seems extensively easier than my other win condition, ...malthusis wrote:@Nat: I think I have a reason for you saying what you did, you probably have a win condition that says kill all survivors.
Can we PLEASE give him a reason to reveal information that is very beneficial to the town?Natirasha wrote:Do you have a reason I should reveal that information?
One, Town, your turn.Natirasha wrote:First of all, how many alignments are in your role PM?Kinetic wrote:Can we PLEASE give him a reason to reveal information that is very beneficial to the town?Natirasha wrote:Do you have a reason I should reveal that information?
Also, I pose this question to the town: Day 1, what alignment would most likely HAVE this much information?
Umm, what? Here, let me fix your perception...veerus wrote:The survivor claim idea is ridiculous and, as pointed out in 223 by armlx, we would never see one. In fact, the people who have jumped on this idea (kinetic/cybele) currently seem suspicious as hell as it looks like a coordinated attempt between two scum-partners to try and encourage the town into voting for a townie under unrealistic pretenses.
...
I do not really consider Kinetic's "bus" statement a slip as he might've just failed to find a proper verb at the time for what he was trying to say. However, his survivor-based attacks on Natirasha have the "eager scum" feel to them. His pressure on Nat to reveal alignment information only helps support that.
vote: Kinetic
FOS: Cybele
Ok, first off, I was against the whole survivor claim idea, not for it, as shown above. A lot of people were for it, I didn't understand them or anyone else on why a survivor would claim, and instead of someone answering me they all just blew it over...Quick wrap up of what has happened so far wrote:Natirasha wrote:...My role implies that there are at least two survivors in this game. I want them to come forward ...Empking wrote:Yeah, if you're a survivor claim.Kinetic wrote:Long Fucking Post which basically says I don't understand why Survivors would claim, would Nat please clarify some questions I have.armlx wrote:I'm down with Survivors claiming.VisMaior wrote:"Come forward so I can kill you!"Natirasha wrote:game. I want them to come forward and tell me why I shouldn't kill them right now
Err... Do I have to point out ... Nah.
I see what you did there.veerus wrote:Kinetic, you seem eager to claim, so I suggest you start.
First, think ONLY of me. ONLY KINETIC. Don't talk about Cybele. I don't give a fuck about Cybele. Mention Cybele in your reply to ME and you're linking the two of us, for better or for worse. Only respond to things I've done, and that I've said. If you respond to things CYBELE has done and used them to justify thoughts about me, then you are LINKING us together and prejudicing your responses to ME based on something CYBELE did. I really don't understand how you can't see that as a form of linking... You can hardly say a sentence without mentioning us both together. Stop it.forbiddanlight wrote:You two are probably survivors, of different flavors, since instantly a bandwagon forms on the biggest threat to you. Hmmm...
lol. Let it go.forbiddanlight wrote:Because I'm right
If you want to have a logical fallacy-off, I can play that game too, but it's just a distraction. I show you how your argument is a fallacy, you show me how mine could be a fallacy, blah blah blah. In the meantime the scum win. I'm going to end it here and now before it becomes a distraction.
Hmm, interesting question... I haven't really thought deeply about it to be quite honest. My first throw at the idea was pretty much out of left field, and I didn't really think it through. That being said, I really didn't think anyone would really push for it (the claim that is). It's a very oddball move, and I kind of only half said it to get some conversation on the topic...Mana_Ku wrote:Kinetic, what does the town gain from the win condition claim?
Would you care to elaborate?DG wrote:Mind you, after reading the posts intervening between my vote yesterday, and my vote today, Kinetic's post is alarming.
I read your message, and I repeat my original response:The Internet wrote:I'll repeat Kinetic, what is the official name of the "town", according to you PM.
This may not have been a direct response to your question, but it fits. I'm not giving you a freebie unless we have a consensus. I'm confident, but since you're opposed to such a claim, does that mean you're not confident?Kinetic wrote:First, everyone must agree that this claim will go through to everyone. If someone tries to dodge it, we need a consensus that we will lynch them.
Second, I'll generate (or someone else can if you think I have some magical powers) using the boards dice rollers, a completely random order in which claims will happen. That way no one can challenge that the claims were done unfairly.
And why would I say it so that you could copy me scum?Natirasha wrote:Yes, Kinetic, what is thee actual name of the town, Kinetic?
I'm sorry, but what? The name of the town and my win conditions are obviously the same things. So you asking for one is you asking for the other. And I've already said my peace on this matter.The Internet wrote:Kinetic, I'm not asking for your win condition, just the name of the town faction, according to you. Don't sidestep the question, I'm already suspicious of you.
Didn't know about that role, but I read up on it, and I suppose the possibility exists that some kind of role similar to that one exists in this game. That being said, that role also have the addition of a way the character switches sides, effectively his win condition changed as well and also he had a survivor condition.forbiddanlight wrote: Lakitu in Mushroom Kingdom.
Nat has information. I'd like to pull as much as we can out of him and discard him if we decide he's a scum neutral. You however, have not shown any promise of information at all, which is intriguing. Hence, why I vote you between these candidates.[/quote]THUS if a scum has another win condition, that win condition must either be neutral, survivor, or scum related. I was thinking this when I was preparing to enter the game (I wanted to join from the beginning, because I was intrigued, but the game closed up before I came back to the site). When Nat basically jumped up and said "Hey, I have a 'neutral' second win condition", ... well, yea, you can put 2 and 2 together now if you want to. But that is why I wanted him to reveal his win conditions, because I wanted to see if I could get him to slip without any help from anyone else...
I'm a business major, I never give apples for free. If you're willing to pay for them with something of equal value, I am willing to barter.forbiddanlight wrote:Actually, it's more like, I don't think you are going to give any apples if you have them,
The Internet wrote:I'm just asking for your faction name. Specifically, the one you alledge is town. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SAY YOUR WIN CONDITION An example: SFASDFSJHJ (just a hypothetical) would be a faction, while its win condition is to kill all of DHJJAJKLCU and DGNDHMS( again, just hypothetical). I know the names of several factions from my role PM, but only the win conditions of my two were in there. Don't sidestep the question, it is a reasonable request.
Kinetic, post 237 wrote:we just need to claim the win conditions name.
Kinetic, post 242 wrote:First, everyone must agree that this claim will go through to everyone. If someone tries to dodge it, we need a consensus that we will lynch them.
Second, I'll generate (or someone else can if you think I have some magical powers) using the boards dice rollers, a completely random order in which claims will happen. That way no one can challenge that the claims were done unfairly.
If these two conditions are agreed upon, I believe we will have a fair and quick claim.
...The Internet wrote:UnvoteFOS: KineticI'm opposed to a win condition claim. Kinetic, just one question, what is the name of the "town"
Not exactly the way I remember it.VisMaior wrote:Or both. Enlighten me again.
1 So you say: wincondition name=faction name
2 We say: tell us faction name
3 You say: ok if everyone does
4 We mixup wincondioon with faction name, we tell you: we wont claim winconditions, and you tell us the town faction name plz.
5 Goto 1.
6 I say: ok we dont want to massclaim, we want you to claim tough.
Where did I miss the point?
1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.The Internet wrote:Vote: Kineticreasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.
How many vigs are there mal?malthusis wrote:You know that trying to mass claim faction names (not WC's) is practically mass genocide? When WC's are saying that you have to kill a faction, this is going to be an utter vigfest.FoS: people pushing this idea
Really? Is there someone in particular that might want you dead? Say town? Maybe Nat? This is mafia, someone always wants you dead. Town want mafia dead, Mafia want town dead, etc etc. You seem to be thinking something quite specific here though, would you care to elaborate on that?malthusis wrote:All I know is that there is probably quite a few factions that want to kill each other so revealing ones faction (besides town) probably means someone would like you dead.malthusis wrote:
You know that trying to mass claim faction names (not WC's) is practically mass genocide? When WC's are saying that you have to kill a faction, this is going to be an utter vigfest. FoS: people pushing this idea
How many vigs are there mal?
1. And? Every game I've been in where a Mass Claim was used the town won. It certainly depends on the game, but if a mass claim is going to be effective to the town it needs to be done day 1. There are cases I have supported and it has worked (Mafia 68, I believe), and cases when I felt it was a very bad idea and I was right (Freaktown, which was won for the town because of me). I think it might be a good idea here, but I'm really not positive. I'd like to discuss it, but so far discussion has been very frowned upon in this game, with anyone arguing anything being scummified immediately.The Internet wrote:1. Still, as the starter of the discussion you proposed mass claim.Kinetic wrote:1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.The Internet wrote:Vote: Kineticreasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.
2. Explain to me when someone has tried to argue logic with me and not just thinly veiled attacked me and not discussed the ideas.
3. I refuse to be bullied into changing my mind on an issue. I stated my idea, and instead of discussing it, you just kept saying DO IT DO IT DO IT. I don't respond to that.
4. Because I think he's scum. You are joining, wagoning, etc. That isn't scummy, that is playing a game.
5. Wow. Drop it. It was a mistaken use of a word.
2. When I asked for your faction name claim, but you instead strawmanned it into WC claim. (You have since made your points clearer, I still disagree, but now it is just a difference of opinion)
3. As I have said before, you were unwilling to compromise for the town's benefit
4. I guess from my perspective Nat seems less scummy than from yours, making you seem like scum trying to lynch an innocent.
5. Nothing when alone, but it is part of a pattern.
I'll admit, when I first threw the idea out there I didn't quite think this through, but since then this though had come up to me. To this point I don't exactly have a response that will sate the idea. Additionally any ideas I have at this point are just conjecture.dybeck wrote:It goes without saying... but if we massclaim... scum will pick their favorite mass claim from those offered and use it for their own...
I really don't think I'm for it right now either. I do still think it could work, but until I figure a way beyond the flaw that has been presented I don't feel comfortable pushing it.The Internet wrote:Ghetto edit: for clarification, I'm still against mass claim.
That's the primary plan. There is one other things, but I can't reveal it yet. You'll have to take me on faith for the last part. I will reveal it when the race claim is done though.Darox wrote:What is Kinetics plan other than we should all claim races and not try to fulfil our race win conditions?
A full and unfettered claim with the possibility of this plan not being put into action is not acceptable. However, I am prepared to compromise. If this plan is accepted, and this is required from the majority of the other players, I will provide a full claim and not just a race claim.dybeck wrote:Kinetic, a full and unfettered claim from you would help people decide whether they want to follow your plan.
I should tell you that, without it, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that I'm following your plan.
And a full claim you think would prove otherwise? You'll have plenty of room to doubt me no matter what. That isn't the issue here.dybeck wrote:Why would anyone provide you with info with no idea what side you're on?Kinetic wrote:A full and unfettered claim with the possibility of this plan not being put into action is not acceptable. However, I am prepared to compromise. If this plan is accepted, and this is required from the majority of the other players, I will provide a full claim and not just a race claim.dybeck wrote:Kinetic, a full and unfettered claim from you would help people decide whether they want to follow your plan.
I should tell you that, without it, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that I'm following your plan.
In any mafia game??
The claim requires participation from everyone to work dybeck. If the majority of the town agrees to claim, will you claim?dybeck wrote:Anyone who wants to give away their info is free to do so. I'm not one of them.
So it's 'no thanks' from me.
Now you've splashed the complete list of alignments across the thread, no doubt scum will find something that they'd like to claim, so no doubt they'll join you in your plan.
Ah, I know the series as well, but I based my deductions on the series not having anything to do with the game, and only if there maybe resembling some things. I also used the rule the game balance trumpts what happened in the series.veerus wrote:This is a pretty good guess. One correction though. Vorlons and Shadows are technically races. Therefore, I think the faction WC for them would likely be "kill AOL". And the race WC would probably be "kill the other mafia and Babylon 5". I say B5 because that was the main AOL faction in the series (thus the name of the game).Kinetic wrote: Faction Win Conditions
Army of Light (Town): Defeat Shadows and Vorlon Operatives
Shadow Operatives(Mafia A): Defeat Vorlons and AOL
Vorlon Operatives(Mafia B): Defeat Shadows and AOL
Race Win Conditions
Minbari: Kill Earthforce and Narn, they are hunted by Babylon 5 and Unaligned Worlds
Earthforce: Kill unaligned and Centauri, are hunted by Babylon 5 and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Earthforce and Minbari, are hunted by unaligned and Narn
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are huned by Narn and Earthforce
Narn: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Centauri and Earth force
It is just a big circle guys. We're all hunting each other and in the end the scum will win. We must ignore these win conditions and work toward the Army of Light win condition. I know you all have it, and if you don't, you're not town. If there is seven race win conditions then a few of the above race win conditions are wrong, but the circle will still be there I'm sure. The race win conditions are meant to break the town up.
Anyway, like I said, this is a great guess at the structure even though there are some thematic inconsistencies. But it's quite likely that they are what they are due to game balance reasons and seeing how Tar games have gone in the past, it's not impossible for him to throw in a few inconsistencies to confuse those familiar with the theme. To further support that argument, my race win condition (which you correctly mentioned btw) has such inconsistency I'm talking about so relying solely on thematic knowledge isn't a good idea here. At any rate, I would be for the race claim as the faction WC should be easier to achieve.
That being said, I still think Nat is the best lynch for today. I believe that his claim is fake. This guess is supported by Kinetic's theory and my comments regarding shadow/vorlon win conditions. Even if his claim isn't all fake, Naroon was a renegade and very anti-town in the series.
No. I'm afraid my big reveal will explain exactly why, but I cannot do that yet.armlx wrote:Kinetic, wouldn't ever claiming their race just lead to more issues with people pursuing their race WC over the AOL one? Why not just have everyone agree to NEVER claim race, which means no one can ever target another race specifically and therefore has to win via their alignment WC.
This post is ... interesting. ...hp [leaves] wrote:Okay, one is Nat's claim: Anti-shadow. That has no business with either the Light Force or the Vorlons. Their win condition is to get the shadows and neutral survivors dead (one of Nat's early posts was about asking survivors to come out and tell why he shouldn't kill them)
The other one is, as you suspect; the anti-vorlon, the vorlon version of Nat's faction. The reason that I fully believe Nat's claim is that I'm from this faction. If you don't believe me, go on and lynch Nat (or me). Since the role PM's are exposed in the death scene, you'll see that I'm right.
Just telling again that neither the Anti-Shadow or Anti-Vorlon factions need to eliminate the Light Force to win
What reason would scum have to claim a false race? In fact, the way my big reveal will show is that they CAN'T pick a false race, I'll know. This was a flaw in the original WC claim, but I made sure this flaw didn't exist before I went forward with this.dybeck wrote:I don't think it will work whether I claim or not. Scum will just fake claim now that we've made it so easy for them.
I don't care about your faction win condition. Only your race.dybeck wrote:Furthermore, one of my win conditions is an anti-faction win condition, so declaring which one it is just makes me a target for nightkill. Which doesn't help me or my faction.
I present into evidence, Freaktown Large Theme game. The game was a Large game with over 20 people, modded and created by Raj (very experienced mod), Tar and I both played in it. Tar was scum, I was town. The game had a NO REVEAL on death. The town was never sure who was town or scum. There were two scum factions, both of whom could kill up to three times per night. I successfully broke the game and solely won the game from town, out-thought Tar at a pivitol moment in the game, and figured out the ENTIRE set up with less information that I was given in my own role PM for this game. Trust me, figuring out this game was NOT easy, but I did it.dybeck wrote:mod is experienced and highly unlikely to have made it so easy.
That was not my question. My question is, if the majority of the town agrees, do we have to lynch you to figure out your race or will you tell us?dybeck wrote:So no, overall, I'm not going to go along with your mysterious, inadequately-informed plan. On Day 1.
You refuse to give an inch, until I give a meter, and then you try and negotiate the inch. -.-dybeck wrote:Will you at least confess that scum could have some ability that you haven't anticipated?
I see. This is your issue I bet. Interesting. This could mean one of two things. One, there is a seventh race, like I thought there might be, and this is throwing off my math for the six race theory. Either that or something else is wrong with my math... I'll double check and get back to you.dybeck wrote:Also, I will categorically tell you that at least one of your race WCs is flat wrong.
You haven't made any point. In my original post I mentioned there could be six or seven, but that my plan doesn't require there to be six or seven. The reason I posted what I believed the WCs were was mostly just a guess on some of them. However, none of that matters. If there is only six, then that's perfect.dybeck wrote:No, I don't think giving scum yet more info is necessary at this point.
I think I've made my point about how half-baked your plan is.
... -.-dybeck wrote:If this is a serious question, then you have alarmingly less knowledge about this game setup even than your posts so far have revealed.Kinetic wrote:So you're admitting you're scum?dybeck wrote:Kinetic, your guesswork is putting the town at risk.
And I'm fairly certain you're not from my faction.
And there's every chance you're scum.
unvote, vote: Kinetic
But your fishing is ok? *rolls eyes*dybeck wrote:There's no contradiction here. I don't like a massclaim. I don't like your fishing.Kinetic wrote:You vote me and attack me for revealing TOO much information, but you still want me to reveal MORE information and my refusal to you consider scummy. Contradiction much?FOS:Dybeck
I wouldn't mind hearing you claim. No dichotomy.
I'm most concerned that you're not actually in an informed minority, and that this whole argument is distracting from lynching them.
Would you at least accept that we should hear from some other people?
unvotefor now.
As people die we'll learn their race. What will happen when Centauri find that, its true that the town is losing, but if they find ONE MORE NARN they can win? What will happen when any race does that? What if this boils down to a race war? Keeping the races secret, that is what this will become. Doing a race claim when there is an imbalance of power is what this will become. While the races are all balanced is the ONLY time a race claim can have any effect. Once there is a death, everything goes out the window unless we stop it, here and now.armlx wrote:I do not endorse the race claim as it will have the exact opposite effect Kinetic is saying it will.
Race claims later will be WORSE. The races ahead will KNOW they are ahead. They will be the ones asking for the race claim and at that point it will be a distraction for the town, not a benefit. Finding out the races now we, as a town, will always outnumber a certain race's WC and we can always prevent one from winning. Without the KNOWLEDGE that a certain race is doing that though, there COULD be a power role that finds a race and they could push toward that WC while everyone else is ignorant.Mana_Ku wrote:Why a FoS instead of a vote pacman?
I'll keep it with what i already said. The race claims should be later. If there are only a few players left, we can use the race claims and the win claims to catch the scum.
Armlx, what do you think will happen if we will race claim now?