Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[The Internet]

Vote

:DrippingGoofball. Do I really need to give an explanation for first vote D1?

I was generous this time. In the future, votes that fail to bold the name of the player being voted will not be counted. - Tar

[The Internet]

He has a history of being replaced and lurking, and even admits to it in his wiki.

I'm a lurker. =D That's my playstyle and if you don't like it then I guess you don't. But that's how I play.

Clearly this devient needs to be lynched asap.

LURKER!=SCUM. Plus, what is the harm if he is replaced? As his meta shows, he lurks as both scum and town, making lurking a null tell.

[The Internet]

Roger that, to avoid prod. Anyway, I could understand darox trying to sucker scum in. If he is genuinely sincere, then I can't support the lynch, as we are here to lynch scum, not lurkers. I'll be checking the vote record for wagon jumpers.

[The Internet]

Just letting everyone know my thoughts. I think the survivors should claim if they feel it would help, and I think ant should full claim before the town tries to force them to claim. Cybele is fairly scummy, but I think I'll wait for him to drop another tell or at least reply. Kinetic seems to be normal, but I wouldn't rule him out as survivor.

[The Internet]

Unvote

FOS: Kinetic

I'm opposed to a win condition claim. Kinetic, just one question, what is the name of the "town"

[The Internet]

I'll repeat Kinetic, what is the official name of the "town", according to you PM.

[The Internet]

I'll repeat Kinetic, what is the official name of the "town", according to you PM.

I read your message, and I repeat my original response:

First, everyone must agree that this claim will go through to everyone. If someone tries to dodge it, we need a consensus that we will lynch them.

Second, I'll generate (or someone else can if you think I have some magical powers) using the boards dice rollers, a completely random order in which claims will happen. That way no one can challenge that the claims were done unfairly.

This may not have been a direct response to your question, but it fits. I'm not giving you a freebie unless we have a consensus. I'm confident, but since you're opposed to such a claim, does that mean you're not confident?

Yes, Kinetic, what is thee actual name of the town, Kinetic?

And why would I say it so that you could copy me scum?

Kinetic, I'm not asking for your win condition, just the name of the town faction, according to you. Don't sidestep the question, I'm already suspicious of you.

[The Internet]

Ghetto Edit: Kinetic, several other people have already asked for you to answer the question of the name of town, according to you.

[The Internet]

I'm just asking for your faction name. Specifically, the one you alledge is town. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SAY YOUR WIN CONDITION An example: SFASDFSJHJ (just a hypothetical) would be a faction, while its win condition is to kill all of DHJJAJKLCU and DGNDHMS( again, just hypothetical). I know the names of several factions from my role PM, but only the win conditions of my two were in there. Don't sidestep the question, it is a reasonable request.

[The Internet]

Kinetic, stop using stawmen. I am asking for THE NAME OF ONE OF YOUR ALLEGED FACTIONS, NOT YOUR WIN CONDITION. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR WIN CONDITION. If you refuse to claim your faction name without your win condition, then SAY SO. I already know you refuse to FULLCLAIM without a mass claim. I'm asking if you will give a partial claim first (we do not want a scum as the architect of the mass claim). If will not, then say so.

[The Internet]

Vote: Kinetic

reasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.

[The Internet]

Vote: Kinetic

reasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.

1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.

2. Explain to me when someone has tried to argue logic with me and not just thinly veiled attacked me and not discussed the ideas.

3. I refuse to be bullied into changing my mind on an issue. I stated my idea, and instead of discussing it, you just kept saying DO IT DO IT DO IT. I don't respond to that.

4. Because I think he's scum. You are joining, wagoning, etc. That isn't scummy, that is playing a game.

5. Wow. Drop it. It was a mistaken use of a word.

1. Still, as the starter of the discussion you proposed mass claim.
2. When I asked for your faction name claim, but you instead strawmanned it into WC claim. (You have since made your points clearer, I still disagree, but now it is just a difference of opinion)
3. As I have said before, you were unwilling to compromise for the town's benefit
4. I guess from my perspective Nat seems less scummy than from yours, making you seem like scum trying to lynch an innocent.
5. Nothing when alone, but it is part of a pattern.

[The Internet]

Vote: Kinetic

reasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.

1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.

2. Explain to me when someone has tried to argue logic with me and not just thinly veiled attacked me and not discussed the ideas.

3. I refuse to be bullied into changing my mind on an issue. I stated my idea, and instead of discussing it, you just kept saying DO IT DO IT DO IT. I don't respond to that.

4. Because I think he's scum. You are joining, wagoning, etc. That isn't scummy, that is playing a game.

5. Wow. Drop it. It was a mistaken use of a word.

1. Still, as the starter of the discussion you proposed mass claim.
2. When I asked for your faction name claim, but you instead strawmanned it into WC claim. (You have since made your points clearer, I still disagree, but now it is just a difference of opinion)
3. As I have said before, you were unwilling to compromise for the town's benefit
4. I guess from my perspective Nat seems less scummy than from yours, making you seem like scum trying to lynch an innocent.
5. Nothing when alone, but it is part of a pattern.

1. And? Every game I've been in where a Mass Claim was used the town won. It certainly depends on the game, but if a mass claim is going to be effective to the town it needs to be done day 1. There are cases I have supported and it has worked (Mafia 68, I believe), and cases when I felt it was a very bad idea and I was right (Freaktown, which was won for the town because of me). I think it might be a good idea here, but I'm really not positive. I'd like to discuss it, but so far discussion has been very frowned upon in this game, with anyone arguing anything being scummified immediately.

And even if I didn't bring it up, eventually someone should have. Discussing our options is a townie move. I've always felt open discussion about a topic should never be taboo and people who say "You're scum just for proposing that idea" are much more scummy than someone with the courage to ask the question. And that sort of mind set, where you constantly make people afraid to post their opinions and asking questions, is a very anti-town mindset. That isn't the way I work.

2. If you now understand my points and agree that while unclear my original argument had merit (no matter if you agree with it or not), then my intent was not to straw man your argument, and you mistakenly believed it was. Thus the whole thing was a miscommunication. They happen, they're frustrating, but they happen. Now that we're on the same page though you might understand my own frustration as well.

3. Compromise? Compromise requires give and take. It requires open discussion and debate. It requires negotiation. Without all of those you cannot even approach compromise. I'm open to compromise, if a compromise can be achieved, but neither you, nor anyone else, have proposed a compromise. All that you've proposed is I give you everything and you give me nothing. I find those terms unacceptable and they haven't changed so neither has my decision.

4. Granted. But I think he is scummy, I've made my points, none of which have been adequately disputed. This is day one though, so no argument is going to be perfect, but I also have stated my vote isn't to lynch him. My vote currently is to apply pressure to have him reveal more than the little breadcrumbs that he did. He has dodged my questions by simply ignoring them, and I've continued to try and force him to at least acknowledge them and not just OMGUS me.

No one else is asking him the tough questions, how am I to believe suddenly someone will if I relent?

5. *rolls eyes* Humans try and find patterns in everything and patterns in nothing. Sometimes there is a pattern, and most of the time we're delusional. I'm guilty of this myself, but I'm starting to get suspicious of how many people are using that comment and that comment alone justify their vote of me. I'm not saying you're one of them, but any serious vote should have something more than that.

Additionally, for that comment to mean anything would require you to believe Nat is scum. You obviously don't, by your own admission in point 4. So therefore in order to truly believe point 4, you must dismiss point 5 or vice-versa. You can't have it both ways.

FOS: Theinternet

for a logical contradiction.

Unvote

I see your points, and I apologize. I'll keep my eye on you, though.

[The Internet]

Ghetto edit: for clarification, I'm still against mass claim.

[The Internet]

I'm ok with a race claim.

[The Internet]

I support Kinetic's plan not because I view it as the masterstroke that will bust the game wide open(though I am curious of his thoughts), I support it mainly because I do not see it being harmful. (this post mainly here to avoid prod).

[The Internet]

Don't care who starts.

[The Internet]

Centauri.

[The Internet]

Just something to note: Nat no longer has the majority, hp[leaves] does

[The Internet]

Unfos, FOS:Mana_Ku

I need a darn good reason not to vote you, and soon. Both Nat and hp[leaves] didn't have a problem claiming, and they also didn't say anything about partners.

[The Internet]

Mana sounds good.

Unvote, vote MAna

claim please before you disappear again.

Unvote; Vote: MafiaSSK

WC or role?

race only

[The Internet]

Mod, can you prod DGB? He hasn't posted since the 28th and I fon't think he said he'd be V/LA

DrippingGoofball has been prodded and has received an Official Warning for Rule 15 violation. I will check to see if any other players need prodding. - Tar

[The Internet]

My theory: there are 3 of every race except B5, which there are more of. That means there would be one scum hiding in B5 and another in the narn, and the scum would be centauri and earth force(perhaps the narn is a centauri trying to backstab the narn). Just a theory, and KoC's claim could screw it up.

[The Internet]

Well, I guess all I can say in my defense is don't outguess the mod, and this is a tar game. I'd also like to raise the theory that all of the anti-x are actually members of one of the mafias using safeclaims. Just a possibility, remember there are 3 of them and 3 of each mafia.

[The Internet]

Sorry for the lack of posting - college, etc.
Internet - how do you know 3 scum?

In Kinetics theory.

[The Internet]

Wow, did Veerus actually just say that?

Say what? The namesake thing? To think otherwise is ridiculous. The game is themed on revolving around B5, B5 had the most main characters and most of those characters fit the AOL WC. I say this because we have a B5 character claim who's not one of the main 4 commander-type characters from the series (one of whom is my role thus the theory). That alone makes at least 5 B5's. And I can name half a dozen more obscure and well known characters that could be B5-aligned and in the set up.

Plus seems to me I'm not the only one who thinks there are 6 B5 and 3 everyone else and yet I'm the one being chastised for it? Scum bandwagon?

LOL Good job, pointing out the SECOND scummiest person, and linking yourself with him. ROFL. I made this yesterday so I could post it as soon as KoC posted, but with him avoiding the thread, I'd rather give the town all the information it needs with under 24 hours remaining until Deadline.

I'm most for a Veerus or Theinternet Lynch, but honestly anyone in my top 3 I'll switch to. I'll also consider a KoC lynch to confirm his race if he 'magically' re-appears and race claims.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 scum, one from each race,

but the 6 B5 is obviously the anomaly, since equal distribution would leave three races with 4, and three races with 3.

We know that there are at least 4 with the non-town WC (I think we can safely assume that Nat has an Anti-Vorlon counter part mutator or something.) But by my theory there COULD be up to 6 by my math.

We do need to figure out if the others (Ku, Nat, hp) are actually scum, but I doubt it (for reasons outlined earlier). Plus we can simply allow the ACTUAL scum, with the NK and all, kill a cop. Even if we have a doc, I'm sure there is only one, and the scum groups have a vested interest in killing the cops of the other race.

However YOU trying to confuse everyone is just pushing me EVEN MORE to think you're one of the scum veerus. The reason I was waiting for KoC was BECAUSE we don't know what he is going to choose. EVEN if he chooses one of Centauri or Earthforce, it still doesn't quite all make sense.

Alright, here is the first assumption:
All races must kill the same number of people to win their race condition claim.

This number is 7.

I originally thought this meant that they had to kill one race that had 4, and one race that had 3. I was mistaken here though. I’m pretty sure, at this point, that there are 5 true B5, and Centauri only have 2 members. However, this doesn’t matter, as both EF and Unaligned have the same race WC, which is to kill Centauri and B5. Which makes it to kill 7. If you add up ALL of the WCs, based on the claims, you’ll see they all add up to 7, with a few anomalies. Here they are:

First, Anyone with B5 in their WC (EF, Unaligned) currently kill 8. This number is too high. Since I severely doubt there is only 1 Centauri, this must mean that the B5ers must be one too many. Additionally, if you want to think “Well a group with the most players might have the hardest WC to fill.” This doesn’t fit either. Under the current numbers, B5 has a max of 5 to kill. There is NO WAY a Race has a WC to kill less people than are currently in it. Even if KoC claims EF or Minbari, that’s still only 6. Very Very Unlikely.

Second, since currently Minbari is 3 and EF is 2, B5’s WC means that they only kill 5 to win, Minbari only needs to kill 6 to win (2 EF, 4 Narn), and Narn only need 6 to win (3 Minbari, 3 Unaligned).

However, if KoC is either EF or Minbari, then if the person hiding inside the B5, because it is the OBVIOUS TOWN, is from either Earthforce or Minbari. The fact that Veerus is trying to tee off on Narn is indicative of him being Minbari actually… curious.

THUS, If we assume that one of the B5 is EF or Minbari, and the KoC is one of B5 or Minbari, then according to the WCs I posted, if they are right, then EVERY RACE has to kill an equal number of players to win, 7.

It’s mathematically perfect.

Now, to find the scum. Here is what we know:

Centauri might have up to 1 scum.

B5 might have up to two scum.

Minbari might have up to 1

EF might have up to 1

Narn might have up to 2

Unaligned might have up to 1.

Let’s go case by case, but leave B5 for last.

Centauri have 2 claimers
This one is easy enough. If RandomGem’s PM posted in the thread is true, then Theinternet is most likely scum. If it isn’t, then he’s town and RG’s scum.

However, EVEN IF Theinternet is not scum, the only balanced likelihood is that he is at best an anti-town role. However, this means RG’s role posted in thread is true. If it is not true, it’s the exact opposite and theinternet is almost assuredly town and RG is scum.

Unaligned have three claimers
Armlx, MafiaSSK, and cretin. Quite the group here. First off, I do not believe that there is either a survivor or a anti-town player in here right now. Because of this, any of the three could be the scum. There is a lot going on here, but up to two of these players could be AOL according to my calculations.

The only way an anti-town player (and thus only one AOL) is in the unaligned faction is if Centauri has an anti-town player and not a scum. This would also mean B5 have two scum in their ranks.

Earthforce should have 3 claimers.
From this group we have a confirmed anti-town in hp. If KoC claims Minbari, then this virtually confirms that Pacman is town. It also shows that the hider in B5 is Earthforce. However, I do believe the hider is Minbari (and in fact, is veerus, which I will explain in depth in the Minbari analysis.

Because of this, Either Pacman or KoC. Currently, they’re both acting VERY scummy, but personally I think I prefer Pacman to KoC.

Minbari should have 4 claimers
Currently we have a confirmed anti-town in Nat, Myself (Kinetic) and Darox claiming Minbari. Additionally, I do believe that veerus could be Minbari hiding in B5. This would be because: B5’s WC is to kill Minbari. Veerus believes B5 to be the two race faction, and keeps confusing this, so he claimed it. He believes NARN are the anomaly, which is one of the races that Minbari must kill.

Thus, if veerus is indeed scum, and indeed Minbari, this virtually clears me and Darox as not Anti-town.

Narn have 4 claimers
Currently we have malt, farside, dybeck and pop in here. Truthfully, this is a very scummy group. Additionally, since Minbari and Narn are directly opposing factions both could very likely have 4 members, I am pretty sure that both a scum and an anti-town player is in this group. The anti-town player most likely has a power ability similar or the same as Nat’s Mutator ability. In my own humble opinion, I believe that pop and malt are those people. I really don’t like dybeck, but since he claimed Narn, I’m starting to think he was against race claim because he felt that Narn were being targeted (Nat came out against them, and then so did RandomGem). I’m not sure though. If I had to guess, I’d put Malt ahead of Pop, and guess Pop was the anti-town and malt was the scum.


B5 should have 5 claimers
The reason I saved this race for last is because it will be the most complicated and have the most contingencies.

Now, since we have 5 players in B5, this could mean 3 things. One, there is a member of each scum group inside B5. This is possible. IF there is, then there is NO scum inside Centauri. However, if that IS the case, then most likely the person who is “scum” in Centauri is really anti-town, and then there will be an anti-town player inside Unaligned. Thus, there is only ONE player in Unaligned who is AOL in this case.

Let’s go on the assumption that there is one scum inside the TRUE 5 B5 claimers.
We know that Ku is anti-town, and that there is only one anti-town inside B5 no matter what. Thus we have 1 scum, at least two AOL, and possibly a third AOL or a survivor among the B5 players.

If there are two scum inside B5, then there is no scum inside Centauri. If that is the case, then there is at least one, but possibly two AOL. In this case there is a low likelihood of a survivor being in B5. If there is no survivor inside B5, then there is only 2 survivors. The highest likelihood for 3 survivors is if there is only one scum inside B5.

However, the MOST likely occurrence is if there are only 2 of each anti-town faction, there are only 2 survivors. The most likely occurrence for this means there is one scum inside the true B5, and three members of AOL.

However, if there are 3 survivors, then there are either two scum or two anti-town players inside B5. Thus there is 3 players that are NOT AOL, and one survivor, thus there is only one player who is AOL in the TRUE B5.

Now, I said all that so I can make my list of People most likely to be scum:
Here is my top ten, in order, of how scummy I find them:

1. Veerus – I’m starting to maybe believe he could be B5. I’m not buying it completely though. If he drops though, VisMajor would be my second guess to the scum fake-race claiming. However, even if he is truly B5, I also believe he could still be scum. Thus he is VERY high on my list.

2. Theinternet – He is very high because of the high chance of him either being scum or anti-town. The only possibility he is not one of these relies on RG PM being a fake.

3. pacman
4. Malt
5. SSK
6. VisMajor
7. dybeck
8. pop
9. darox
10. Creten

Emphasis Mine.

[The Internet]

I see my calmness has rubbed people the wrong way. I'd like to point out that Kinetic's theory is very, very far from perfect, having been rebuilt so much it is barely recognizable and IIRC there are still issues and uncertainties. Remember, not every roles have equal shots at winning (jesters can win easy, SK's have hard times). Not sure who'll I place my vote on, waiting for HP's reply.

[The Internet]

Cr3t1n, your logic is like your english: rotten. So it is scummy that I could not find much of a case against someone? I am a cautious voter, check my meta if you don't believe me. I defended SSK because I do not believe in lurker lynches. And it is scummy to answer a question, thereby feeding information to the town and cutting down confusion? Personally, I want to see who started the claim that Malt was cleared.

[The Internet]

u never talked about cybele or KoC again after that
if u were suspishus of him u shud hav sed moar

how do u fink we shud find out if mafiassk is scum?
y r u letting him lurk?

I honestly forgot the case against KoC, and was to occupied with the race claim/Kinetic's theory. I think that we can try and find if SSK is scum after we investigate more pressing matters, like malt, hp, and farside.

[The Internet]

Also Kinetic came up with the idea that I cleared Malt.

It's not suspicious or anything. He is 100% AOL by my evidence. Just that his logic is null.

Just to confirm, you "cleared" him based on play, not by using your cop ability. If yes, is the clearing dependent on Kinetic's theory.

[The Internet]

Vote:Mactivitylock

Either your scum and desrve to be lyched, or your a liar and desrve to be lynched. Also, mod I believe there are some people needing prods or replacements (IIRC RandomGem, MafiaSSK).

[The Internet]

RandomGem is still alive (though maybe he needs replacement). And since when is voting for a CLAIMED SCUM bussing? Any sane person realizes that is mafia, we are here to kill scum.

[The Internet]

If my personal vote count is right, I think Kinetic already hammered, unless I miss someone unvoting.

[The Internet]

Good game. I thought we were well on track to winning (I and SSK were the other shadows), but then the minbari win out of the blue (I guess we didn't count the race right). The survivors were also an epic curveball. I think I'm gonna be talking about this game for a while( though maybe not the supreme anticlimax)

[The Internet]

We as scum kind of realized it hit the fan during night three when we saw that we had been killing at random (we were trying to avoid doc protection), and then realized there were alot of AoL left. I am amazed that the cult was so weak in this game.