Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[Kinetic]

HI!

I R REPLACE POKEMAN PERSON!

ME REED TO CACH UP WIT U'ALL

ME RANDOM VOTE NOW!

Vote:Armlx

ME TALK MOR L8R

[Kinetic]

Alright, I'm pretty much caught up. There seriously doesn't seem much to be going on, and honestly I hate lurkers more than most things. I think that there might be some merit to the SSK lynch, but with that being said there is a strict 72 hour post restriction imposed by Tar.

With that being said, I feel we should wait a little bit and see if SSK is going to be actively lurking (lurking and only making the bare minimum number of posts) or lurks to be replaced. I feel the former is much more scummy than the latter, and if he does begin to do that I'll vote that way. Otherwise, for the time being I'm keeping my random vote and throwing a

FOS:Cybele

just for shits and giggles.

[Kinetic]

You say that like I didn't understand the situation before you said it. I'm not going to easy lynch anyone based on an out of game reason. When you start moving out of game for primary reasons you set a very poor precedent that I for one won't follow.

If he becomes an issue in THIS game, then you can make your arguments and back them up with out of game evidence. However, in this case your out of game evidence is at best a null tell, by your own admission. You've yet to explain how his particular meta would make him more likely to be scum.

Until you can answer those questions, expect my vote not to fall on SSK based on those arguments.

[Kinetic]

I confirm that I am awesome pants. Glad to be back on the site (in a limited capacity, granted), and I still can't forget that Freaktown game Tar. Epic.

[Kinetic]

You say that like I didn't understand the situation before you said it. I'm not going to easy lynch anyone based on an out of game reason. When you start moving out of game for primary reasons you set a very poor precedent that I for one won't follow.

I realize, I was more commenting on how you said he would be scummy if he active lurked, rather then just worthless and null.

I'm sorry then, I thought you were advocating said policy lynch. That is my error then.

[Kinetic]

Yes, something is nagging me as well about Cebele. I might turn my FOS into a vote should something come of this wagon.

[Kinetic]

Would you care to explain what bothers you Vis? Or at least try to talk it out so I can try and respond?

[Kinetic]

I'm almost tempted to encourage everyone to vote SSK to five votes so he is forced to do a pbpa of himself. I would find that highly entertaining.

Of course, pbpa in my opinion are nothing more than an overused tactic that proves virtually nothing but makes it seem as if one is participating without actually participating at all.

Vis: I'm glad on second thought you don't find the conversation as scummy, but did you really need to phrase it the way you did? Manners please.

On the point of Cybele, I noted similar things as Arlex, which is primarily the reason I FOSed in my (serious) opening post. However I'm not ready to vote based on just that. I think in a page or two I'm going to re-read and see if I notice anything that starts to peak my radar a little bit before I place a serious vote.

[Kinetic]

I'm not so sure... I've read a lot on survivor tactics, but I can't understand why they would out themselves? What would it gain them?

I understand the basic idea, a survivor who claims gains immunity (of a sort) from town, because they want to kill scum and survivors aren't good plays... they're better than town plays, but they're not good plays. They also gain partial immunity from scum for the same reason, but one that HURTS the town (If the town has power roles, it increases the chance that scum can hit them with a random kill.) Not to mention how are we to know that a survivor is not a scumbag trying to hide from lynch? That's two negative points and one null point, in my opinion survivor claims are at best a negative play for town (and a neutral play for survivors.).

Additionally, if we leave the survivors in play, they are effectively townies in the beginning, but become scum later in the game. Why? Because survivors have no loyalty. If helping the scum lynch gives them the ability to survive, they win even if the scum win. Therefore, lynching survivors is not a bad play for town in mid-end game, so that's a negative from the survivor side, and at best a slight positive for town. Hunting survivors is a distraction from hunting scum, who we should be hunting.

Plus, I don't like this. Natirasha you stated your role has to do with survivors, but I can't understand how. Are you a survivor hunter? If the survivors come out are they giving you what you want?

I would prefer some clarification on why YOU want the survivors to reveal themselves before I support that sort of push.

Either way, I don't exactly understand how you intend to enforce your little threat... "TELL ME WHO YOU ARE OR I'LL KILL YOU (even though I can only kill you if I know who you are...)"

No, I don't understand you at all.

[Kinetic]

Without naming any of them. Bravo on failing this thread.

[Kinetic]

Well I've named quite a few reason why I think Survivors claiming would be at best a null result for town, and at worst horribly negative. Maybe someone could explain why it might be good...

And my concerns about Nash are still here, I'd like him to answer me some questions please.

And may I ask why you're equating villagers and survivors? I haven't heard any discussion about a villager role previous to your own mention of it hp...

[Kinetic]

A survivor is a player with a win condition that involves them surviving to end game. A survivor can win even if another faction wins the game (such as town or scum). A survivor can not win the game if they are ever lynched or night killed.

There are some variations on these basic principals, but generally a survivor starts from those basic rules and then his role can be altered to turn him into a survivor variant.

[Kinetic]

I'm sorry, but I'm with Vis here, the absurdity of his statement just makes me want to lynch him.

[Kinetic]

Hmm, on second thought...

Unvote;Vote: Natirasha

Re-FOS Cybele

You missed this from before Tar

Fos: hp [leaves]

The reasoning for my vote of Natirasha is because I currently believe that his role is that of Survivor Hunter/Scum, and that he wants to achieve his survivor hunter win condition because he doesn't feel he achieve his scum win condition.

I intend to bus him to at least a full role claim, and none of this partial BS, and depending on his answers decide if I would also like to push for his lynch. Any assistance from the rest of the town would be appreciated.

[Kinetic]

bus, wagon, etc etc. Obviously I didn't mean the connotation that we were scum together...

[Kinetic]

I'm having trouble deciding if Cybele is acting noob or scum... >>

[Kinetic]

Well, Nat is certainly an idiot. But, his role is a null tell for his alignment. Part of me wants to vote him because of Mind Screw II, but that's probably screwing myself...

Mind explaining why you think its a null tell?

And then I notice that Cybele and Kinetic magically jump on Nat. And there are two survivors...

I almost want to think it wouldn't be this obvious.

But, either way, asking the survivors to claim, while likely futile, isn't scummy. We can deal with Nat later (I think). I'm happy with

Unvote, vote Cybele

HoS Kinetic

There was nothing magical about it. I gave my reasons for my vote, explained as much as I felt I needed to, and voted him. Cybele immediately following like he's attached to my ass is more on him than on me.

As for your obvious attempts to link the two of us together, maybe you should do a little more research. In my first serious post of this game (123) I noted the very thing everyone is voting Cybele for and FOSed him for it. 7 posts before Arlex voted for Cybele, which was his first vote.

I've kept that FOS up and not voted for Cybele, as explained in post (153) before Nat's partial claim, and post (187) after I voted Nat. However, just to reiterate, I find Cybele scummy, but I can't decide if his actions are more indicative of scum play or newbie play. Heck, it could be newbie scum play, with an attempt to latch onto a townie (myself).

I don't know, but I'm more sure that I want to know more about Nat's role before I make a push to lynch, and to do that it requires my vote on him for pressure. Without other votes and more pressure though he's going to get away scot free and we'll end the day with very little information on him.

I'm pretty sure the people jumping on Nat with those BS reasons are likely survivors.

Ah, what a perfect example of Ad hominem without being aggressive (which it seems many people on this forum incorrectly assume is needed for an Ad hominem attack).

You either disagree with my conclusions or otherwise don't believe they are right, but instead of arguing against them you make an attack against me (he's most likely a survivor, thus he must be wrong not because the argument is wrong, but because he's a survivor.)

Sorry, that doesn't fly, and for trying to tie me to Cybele without doing a little research which would show that very unlikely, and using a fallacious argument to try and discredit me further I

FOS:forbiddenlight

.

[Kinetic]

Mind explaining why you think its a null tell?

Well, first, it's a tar game. That's all you really need

But further, what alignment is a survivor hunter to you? pro town? pro scum? Third party? I don't know about you, but I could find cause to put it in any of these three.

First off, you're making guesses on exactly what Nat's role is. Meanwhile, I know I don't know, and I have suspicions, so I want him to clarify them. The fact that you ALSO feel the SAME means you should ALSO be asking the SAME questions I am and not giving him a free pass!

There was nothing magical about it. I gave my reasons for my vote, explained as much as I felt I needed to, and voted him. Cybele immediately following like he's attached to my ass is more on him than on me.

As for your obvious attempts to link the two of us together, maybe you should do a little more research. In my first serious post of this game (123) I noted the very thing everyone is voting Cybele for and FOSed him for it. 7 posts before Arlex voted for Cybele, which was his first vote.

Hey listen. You and Cybele aren't connected, nor did I ever say you are. I in fact, intimated that you were both survivors. So, let's see what the survivor role is. A third party that tries to last to endgame, wins with any faction as long as they are alive. I highly doubt you two are connected. Don't try to make it look like I am connecting you. That's a strawman, k thx.

Previously:

...notice that Cybele and Kinetic...

...

Unvote, vote Cybele
HoS Kinetic

You are connecting us together, both implicitly and explicitly. Just because you're linking us together as survivors and not mafia does not mean you did not EXPLICITLY argue a link. Even in your rebuttal you used the SAME link to try and prove you didn't make a link. In fact you VOTED Cybele even though by your own admission you don't think that he's scum! If you DIDN'T think he was scum then why did you vote for him? All you have is a possibility that he MIGHT be a survivor based on an argument I made and that he (albeit way too quickly) agreed with.

I in fact, intimated that you were both survivors.

There is no strawman in my argument.

End of conversation. I'm not going to fight semantics here. You said it, if you didn't mean that, then say that you didn't mean to, but don't turn it around on me because what you said (and continue to say) is very clear.

Oh, and bussing doesn't look good. Why is Nat as a survivor hunter auto scumming him again?

For someone who cries strawman so quickly you don't realize when you make the same argument. Anyway, I stated my intent with my vote is not to push for his lynch at this time but to pressure him into revealing more about his role because the little tidbit he did give was so vague that he COULD be scum or he COULD be town, but without more information its just hugely bad for town.

Ah, what a perfect example of Ad hominem without being aggressive (which it seems many people on this forum incorrectly assume is needed for an Ad hominem attack).

You either disagree with my conclusions or otherwise don't believe they are right, but instead of arguing against them you make an attack against me (he's most likely a survivor, thus he must be wrong not because the argument is wrong, but because he's a survivor.)

Sorry, that doesn't fly, and for trying to tie me to Cybele without doing a little research which would show that very unlikely, and using a fallacious argument to try and discredit me further I FOS:forbiddenlight.

Speaking of fallacies, you engaged in one of the most incredible strawmans I have ever seen.

If you want to have a logical fallacy-off, I can play that game too, but it's just a distraction. I show you how your argument is a fallacy, you show me how mine could be a fallacy, blah blah blah. In the meantime the scum win. I'm going to end it here and now before it becomes a distraction.

But, this does imply third party. However, given the two win conditions, you could be aligned elsewhere as well...confusing :S.

FoS: Nat

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. If his ONLY alignment was survivor killer, that might be just a null tell. But he isn't acting like that at all! By his OWN ADMISSION!

@Nat: I think I have a reason for you saying what you did, you probably have a win condition that says kill all survivors.

Yes. And it seems extensively easier than my other win condition, ...

Why has no one else picked up on that besides me? I'm glad that you can be objective enough to step back and realize he's acting scummy, now you need to actually put some pressure on him so that he'll stop dodging the questions and start providing some answers.

[Kinetic]

Interesting Cybele... a ploy then? Hmm, I can't exactly deny that my own over-aggressive style was an attempt to spark discussion...

[Kinetic]

Do you have a reason I should reveal that information?

Can we PLEASE give him a reason to reveal information that is very beneficial to the town?

Also, I pose this question to the town: Day 1, what alignment would most likely HAVE this much information?

[Kinetic]

Do you have a reason I should reveal that information?

Can we PLEASE give him a reason to reveal information that is very beneficial to the town?

Also, I pose this question to the town: Day 1, what alignment would most likely HAVE this much information?

First of all, how many alignments are in your role PM?

One, Town, your turn.

[Kinetic]

I'm not lying about anything. He asked alignments, not win conditions. Big difference. I only have one alignment... Town... He's the one claiming to be more than one alignment...

You can have multiple win conditions and still be of one alignment. Particularly, I know that my two win conditions are practically the same and both of them are considered "town".

I feel like I'm in a room with idiots.

[Kinetic]

Hell, why don't we do a win condition claim. We don't have to explain our win conditions, people who have the same ones will know what they mean, we just need to claim the win conditions name.

[Kinetic]

The survivor claim idea is ridiculous and, as pointed out in 223 by armlx, we would never see one. In fact, the people who have jumped on this idea (kinetic/cybele) currently seem suspicious as hell as it looks like a coordinated attempt between two scum-partners to try and encourage the town into voting for a townie under unrealistic pretenses.

...

I do not really consider Kinetic's "bus" statement a slip as he might've just failed to find a proper verb at the time for what he was trying to say. However, his survivor-based attacks on Natirasha have the "eager scum" feel to them. His pressure on Nat to reveal alignment information only helps support that.

vote: Kinetic
FOS: Cybele

Umm, what? Here, let me fix your perception...

...My role implies that there are at least two survivors in this game. I want them to come forward ...

Yeah, if you're a survivor claim.

Long Fucking Post which basically says I don't understand why Survivors would claim, would Nat please clarify some questions I have.

I'm down with Survivors claiming.

game. I want them to come forward and tell me why I shouldn't kill them right now

"Come forward so I can kill you!"
Err... Do I have to point out ... Nah.

Ok, first off, I was against the whole survivor claim idea, not for it, as shown above. A lot of people were for it, I didn't understand them or anyone else on why a survivor would claim, and instead of someone answering me they all just blew it over...

I'm glad you as well have linked me and Cybele -.-;;; See what you did FL. SEE WHAT YOU DID!

Anyway, if I get this right: You think that my attacks are ones coming from a survivor, so that makes them look scummy... and thus I'm scum? Isn't a survivor a neutral role, not scum? Am I lost? I am so confused... >.>

Kinetic, you seem eager to claim, so I suggest you start.

I see what you did there.

I have no problem with claiming, however, I have my conditions.

First, everyone must agree that this claim will go through to everyone. If someone tries to dodge it, we need a consensus that we will lynch them.

Second, I'll generate (or someone else can if you think I have some magical powers) using the boards dice rollers, a completely random order in which claims will happen. That way no one can challenge that the claims were done unfairly.

If these two conditions are agreed upon, I believe we will have a fair and quick claim.

You two are probably survivors, of different flavors, since instantly a bandwagon forms on the biggest threat to you. Hmmm...

First, think ONLY of me. ONLY KINETIC. Don't talk about Cybele. I don't give a fuck about Cybele. Mention Cybele in your reply to ME and you're linking the two of us, for better or for worse. Only respond to things I've done, and that I've said. If you respond to things CYBELE has done and used them to justify thoughts about me, then you are LINKING us together and prejudicing your responses to ME based on something CYBELE did. I really don't understand how you can't see that as a form of linking... You can hardly say a sentence without mentioning us both together. Stop it.

Second, you keep throwing that tag on me, Survivor this, survivor that. You totally belittle all of my arguments without even evaluating them by throwing that tag on them. You're biasing yourself and everyone else. Poisoning the Well.

You tell me I'm a survivor, then since I'm a survivor in your book, all my arguments are obviously flawed because, obviously Nat is the biggest threat to me (How, pray tell, is he a threat to me?). I havn't heard of Nat having some magical ability to kill survivors. Does he? If he did, yea, IF I was a survivor, that MIGHT be a threat. But I'm not, he hasn't said he does, so your entire argument there is conjecture that is completely meaningless. READ my original arguments. Everything that you read originally that you didn't totally throw out of hand you AGREED with. So I challenge you, AGAIN, think of me as not a survivor, read my arguments, and challenge the ARGUMENTS, not the person.

If you want to have a logical fallacy-off, I can play that game too, but it's just a distraction. I show you how your argument is a fallacy, you show me how mine could be a fallacy, blah blah blah. In the meantime the scum win. I'm going to end it here and now before it becomes a distraction.

Because I'm right

lol. Let it go.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, what does the town gain from the win condition claim?

Hmm, interesting question... I haven't really thought deeply about it to be quite honest. My first throw at the idea was pretty much out of left field, and I didn't really think it through. That being said, I really didn't think anyone would really push for it (the claim that is). It's a very oddball move, and I kind of only half said it to get some conversation on the topic...

However, I want to try and answer your question with a little thought.

I think the main benefit the town would gain, if any, is figuring out who the town really is... And what I mean there is this: If everyone has two win conditions, or maybe even more than that, I don't know, they might not be sure exactly which one is the true town.

What if all of the "second" win conditions for the town are really just red herrings. What if they're part of a ploy so that the people who DO have two win conditions, ones that aren't pro-town, can hide and maybe even throw one of them out to distract us from a more insidious second win condition.

This is, in truth, one of the main reasons I suspect Nat. I was trying to think like Tar (tough, I know, especially since I've heard about his mind screw games. Scary Stuff). Anyway, I do have credentials of being able to out think Tar (granted, I had to kill him in that game to win, because if I left his ass alive I'm sure town would have lost... but anyway). But the conclusion I came to is that is this:

IF the scum also have two win conditions, in NO WAY can one of those win conditions be pro-town. Why? Betrayal. If a scummer has a scum win condition and a town win condition, then he can just tell the town who his scum buddies are, lynch them, and win with the town.

THUS if a scum has another win condition, that win condition must either be neutral, survivor, or scum related. I was thinking this when I was preparing to enter the game (I wanted to join from the beginning, because I was intrigued, but the game closed up before I came back to the site). When Nat basically jumped up and said "Hey, I have a 'neutral' second win condition", ... well, yea, you can put 2 and 2 together now if you want to. But that is why I wanted him to reveal his win conditions, because I wanted to see if I could get him to slip without any help from anyone else...

Granted: Town can also have neutral or survivor win conditions as well, so my thought process isn't full proof. But it is what I'm thinking.

Mind you, after reading the posts intervening between my vote yesterday, and my vote today, Kinetic's post is alarming.

Would you care to elaborate?

[Kinetic]

I'll repeat Kinetic, what is the official name of the "town", according to you PM.

I read your message, and I repeat my original response:

First, everyone must agree that this claim will go through to everyone. If someone tries to dodge it, we need a consensus that we will lynch them.

Second, I'll generate (or someone else can if you think I have some magical powers) using the boards dice rollers, a completely random order in which claims will happen. That way no one can challenge that the claims were done unfairly.

This may not have been a direct response to your question, but it fits. I'm not giving you a freebie unless we have a consensus. I'm confident, but since you're opposed to such a claim, does that mean you're not confident?

Yes, Kinetic, what is thee actual name of the town, Kinetic?

And why would I say it so that you could copy me scum?

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, I'm not asking for your win condition, just the name of the town faction, according to you. Don't sidestep the question, I'm already suspicious of you.

I'm sorry, but what? The name of the town and my win conditions are obviously the same things. So you asking for one is you asking for the other. And I've already said my peace on this matter.

[Kinetic]

Lakitu in Mushroom Kingdom.

Didn't know about that role, but I read up on it, and I suppose the possibility exists that some kind of role similar to that one exists in this game. That being said, that role also have the addition of a way the character switches sides, effectively his win condition changed as well and also he had a survivor condition.

I still stand by that there cannot be a character who has two win conditions (both active at all times) that are both town and scum. Unless... there is no scum in the classical sense, no informed minority... I suppose if you take that out of the equation the game no longer is "mafia" and there really is no town. I don't think this is true, I'm sure there is someone who actually knows what is going on (or at least a hell of a lot more than I do), but... that would be... interesting...

THUS if a scum has another win condition, that win condition must either be neutral, survivor, or scum related. I was thinking this when I was preparing to enter the game (I wanted to join from the beginning, because I was intrigued, but the game closed up before I came back to the site). When Nat basically jumped up and said "Hey, I have a 'neutral' second win condition", ... well, yea, you can put 2 and 2 together now if you want to. But that is why I wanted him to reveal his win conditions, because I wanted to see if I could get him to slip without any help from anyone else...

Nat has information. I'd like to pull as much as we can out of him and discard him if we decide he's a scum neutral. You however, have not shown any promise of information at all, which is intriguing. Hence, why I vote you between these candidates.[/quote]

I have information, but all my information is conjecture and guesses. I'm trying to be as open as possible, and get all of my ideas on the floor so that people can look over them and maybe we could gain consensus. The fact that Nat OBVIOUSLY has more information, based on his role, should be a reason to be pressuring him into giving us that information, like I am trying to do.

Your assertion doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying Nat has apples, I know Nat has apples, but Kinetic doesn't seem to have any apples, so I'm going to pressure Kinetic until he gives me apples... An over simplification to be sure, but that's what I understand of your argument.

[Kinetic]

Actually, it's more like, I don't think you are going to give any apples if you have them,

I'm a business major, I never give apples for free. If you're willing to pay for them with something of equal value, I am willing to barter.



The rest of your post, for the most part though, isn't exactly something I can argue against. Opinions and Intuition aren't exactly concrete basis to push for a lynch, but then again, it is Day 1. *shrug* Anyway, I do have some Apples, and I'm pretty sure anyone who reads my posts carefully will eventually see me hint to who I think the scum faction is. If they realize that, they can also determine who I think the town faction is as well. That is, if they have the same win condition that I'm referring to as well. *shrug*

[Kinetic]

Hey new people.

Did you know Kinetic is a very good wagon and that I strongly endorse it?

This coming from a guy who's only evidence can best be explained by the reliance of someone else to be scum.

Congrats on lurking -.-;;;.

[Kinetic]

I'm just asking for your faction name. Specifically, the one you alledge is town. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SAY YOUR WIN CONDITION An example: SFASDFSJHJ (just a hypothetical) would be a faction, while its win condition is to kill all of DHJJAJKLCU and DGNDHMS( again, just hypothetical). I know the names of several factions from my role PM, but only the win conditions of my two were in there. Don't sidestep the question, it is a reasonable request.

we just need to claim the win conditions name.

First, everyone must agree that this claim will go through to everyone. If someone tries to dodge it, we need a consensus that we will lynch them.

Second, I'll generate (or someone else can if you think I have some magical powers) using the boards dice rollers, a completely random order in which claims will happen. That way no one can challenge that the claims were done unfairly.

If these two conditions are agreed upon, I believe we will have a fair and quick claim.

Unvote

FOS: Kinetic

I'm opposed to a win condition claim. Kinetic, just one question, what is the name of the "town"

...

...

...

I'm going to point it out one more time, and unless you're slow you understand. I want everyone to claim. I think its a good idea. I refuse to claim unless there is a consensus that everyone will claim. You want me to claim without that consensus, and you are trying to (not so cleverly) hide your intent behind semantics.

You want EXACTLY what I want, and you've already heard my terms. You don't reject my terms and then expect me to just give you what you want. You want my claim, I want yours and everyone else in return. That's how this goes down. I'll leave no shadow of a doubt exactly who the town is.

[Kinetic]

The point of the win condition claim was to claim the NAME of the win condition, not the entire thing.

You want me to claim that... THAT IS WHAT THE FUCKING FACTION IS! ARE YOU ALL MENTALLY RETARDED OR SOMETHING!

I refused, before you asked, and I gave you my reasons. WTF is so difficult to understand?

[Kinetic]

Ehh? I dont think its necesary for everyone to claim the faction name. BUt it would be enlightening if you would do it.

-.- You sir are retarded. Either that or not paying attention.

[Kinetic]

Or both. Enlighten me again.
1 So you say: wincondition name=faction name
2 We say: tell us faction name
3 You say: ok if everyone does
4 We mixup wincondioon with faction name, we tell you: we wont claim winconditions, and you tell us the town faction name plz.
5 Goto 1.

6 I say: ok we dont want to massclaim, we want you to claim tough.

Where did I miss the point?

Not exactly the way I remember it.

1. I say why don't we claim WC name (Faction name can be used interchangeably with WC name). I state some terms that I believe will make it so that scum can't exploit the situation and help the town, and am willing to discuss the benefits and possible problems with this idea.
2. Only response: No, but you should claim.
3. I already said I wouldn't claim unless everyone else does.
4. No, you should claim, stop avoiding the question.
5. ...
6. Come on, claim already.
...
...
...

That's how I remember it. My answer to you is the same as it has been to everyone else who has said the same thing:

If you want to know my Faction names/win conditions/any thing in my role pm, then I expect the same from you. And since I don't want scum to be able to hide with information they could gain this way, this requires everyone to be involved or at least a majority that is willing to enforce the claim. Without that I'd only be giving the scum quarter, and I refuse to do that, even if you don't see it that way.

[Kinetic]

Vote: Kinetic

reasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.

1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.

2. Explain to me when someone has tried to argue logic with me and not just thinly veiled attacked me and not discussed the ideas.

3. I refuse to be bullied into changing my mind on an issue. I stated my idea, and instead of discussing it, you just kept saying DO IT DO IT DO IT. I don't respond to that.

4. Because I think he's scum. You are joining, wagoning, etc. That isn't scummy, that is playing a game.

5. Wow. Drop it. It was a mistaken use of a word.

[Kinetic]

You know that trying to mass claim faction names (not WC's) is practically mass genocide? When WC's are saying that you have to kill a faction, this is going to be an utter vigfest.

FoS: people pushing this idea

How many vigs are there mal?

[Kinetic]

malthusis wrote:
You know that trying to mass claim faction names (not WC's) is practically mass genocide? When WC's are saying that you have to kill a faction, this is going to be an utter vigfest. FoS: people pushing this idea


How many vigs are there mal?

All I know is that there is probably quite a few factions that want to kill each other so revealing ones faction (besides town) probably means someone would like you dead.

Really? Is there someone in particular that might want you dead? Say town? Maybe Nat? This is mafia, someone always wants you dead. Town want mafia dead, Mafia want town dead, etc etc. You seem to be thinking something quite specific here though, would you care to elaborate on that?

[Kinetic]

ROFL... I have to do this.

FOS: Tarhalindur

for allowing FOSs of concepts, and I can only expect people not in the game. Thus:

FOS: Mastermindofsin

for leaving MS

FOS: Glork

for not being in this game because I know he could figure out the thing that is bugging me about the people on my wagon.

and

FOS: Lucky Charms (The Cereal)

for being magically delicious, because magic is scummy.

[Kinetic]

Vote: Kinetic

reasons:
1. Pushed for massclaim WAY TOO EARLY
2. Avoids logical arguments
3. Absolutely refuses to reveal information he alledges is vital to the town and the knowledge of the setup unless a mass claim happens.
4. Attempting to start wagon on Nat
5. Possible Bussing.

1. Brought up an idea that I wanted to discuss, no one wanted to discuss it, all that happen was attacks at me instead of discussing the idea.

2. Explain to me when someone has tried to argue logic with me and not just thinly veiled attacked me and not discussed the ideas.

3. I refuse to be bullied into changing my mind on an issue. I stated my idea, and instead of discussing it, you just kept saying DO IT DO IT DO IT. I don't respond to that.

4. Because I think he's scum. You are joining, wagoning, etc. That isn't scummy, that is playing a game.

5. Wow. Drop it. It was a mistaken use of a word.

1. Still, as the starter of the discussion you proposed mass claim.
2. When I asked for your faction name claim, but you instead strawmanned it into WC claim. (You have since made your points clearer, I still disagree, but now it is just a difference of opinion)
3. As I have said before, you were unwilling to compromise for the town's benefit
4. I guess from my perspective Nat seems less scummy than from yours, making you seem like scum trying to lynch an innocent.
5. Nothing when alone, but it is part of a pattern.

1. And? Every game I've been in where a Mass Claim was used the town won. It certainly depends on the game, but if a mass claim is going to be effective to the town it needs to be done day 1. There are cases I have supported and it has worked (Mafia 68, I believe), and cases when I felt it was a very bad idea and I was right (Freaktown, which was won for the town because of me). I think it might be a good idea here, but I'm really not positive. I'd like to discuss it, but so far discussion has been very frowned upon in this game, with anyone arguing anything being scummified immediately.

And even if I didn't bring it up, eventually someone should have. Discussing our options is a townie move. I've always felt open discussion about a topic should never be taboo and people who say "You're scum just for proposing that idea" are much more scummy than someone with the courage to ask the question. And that sort of mind set, where you constantly make people afraid to post their opinions and asking questions, is a very anti-town mindset. That isn't the way I work.

2. If you now understand my points and agree that while unclear my original argument had merit (no matter if you agree with it or not), then my intent was not to straw man your argument, and you mistakenly believed it was. Thus the whole thing was a miscommunication. They happen, they're frustrating, but they happen. Now that we're on the same page though you might understand my own frustration as well.

3. Compromise? Compromise requires give and take. It requires open discussion and debate. It requires negotiation. Without all of those you cannot even approach compromise. I'm open to compromise, if a compromise can be achieved, but neither you, nor anyone else, have proposed a compromise. All that you've proposed is I give you everything and you give me nothing. I find those terms unacceptable and they haven't changed so neither has my decision.

4. Granted. But I think he is scummy, I've made my points, none of which have been adequately disputed. This is day one though, so no argument is going to be perfect, but I also have stated my vote isn't to lynch him. My vote currently is to apply pressure to have him reveal more than the little breadcrumbs that he did. He has dodged my questions by simply ignoring them, and I've continued to try and force him to at least acknowledge them and not just OMGUS me.

No one else is asking him the tough questions, how am I to believe suddenly someone will if I relent?

5. *rolls eyes* Humans try and find patterns in everything and patterns in nothing. Sometimes there is a pattern, and most of the time we're delusional. I'm guilty of this myself, but I'm starting to get suspicious of how many people are using that comment and that comment alone justify their vote of me. I'm not saying you're one of them, but any serious vote should have something more than that.

Additionally, for that comment to mean anything would require you to believe Nat is scum. You obviously don't, by your own admission in point 4. So therefore in order to truly believe point 4, you must dismiss point 5 or vice-versa. You can't have it both ways.

FOS: Theinternet

for a logical contradiction.

[Kinetic]

It goes without saying... but if we massclaim... scum will pick their favorite mass claim from those offered and use it for their own...

I'll admit, when I first threw the idea out there I didn't quite think this through, but since then this though had come up to me. To this point I don't exactly have a response that will sate the idea. Additionally any ideas I have at this point are just conjecture.

I was hoping that while we were talking about it someone might have come forward, maybe with some more information about the set-up if they had it, but alas, either no one knows, they are lurking, or just aren't reading anything and are just skimming posts (most likely)...

[Kinetic]

fishing?

[Kinetic]

No, that isn't what I said or meant. For that to be true I would have had to have realized the flaw that was mentioned previous to my proposal of the claims. The fact alone that I didn't shows that wasn't a motive for the claim.

If you don't believe that, then I also present this: I was thinking more of general information. Particularly setting information. This is a very complicated game, and I don't know about you, but I don't have a lot to work with, so I'm trying to use what I do know to figure out the game, but its like trying to complete a puzzle and missing some pieces. I want those pieces.

Plus, truth be told, if I'd have realized that flaw in the claim idea before I said anything I'd have never brought it up in the first place. After I did realize it I didn't want to stop the loads of discussion and debate *cough* (that last sentence was sarcasm if you didn't catch that). I was hoping though to learn more and possibly figure out a solution to the issue though before I personally brought up the flaw. I haven't yet though. Don't know enough yet, but I think the answer lies in races... If I could just figure it out.

[Kinetic]

EBWOP: Obviously the quote is exactly what I said, what I was referring to in my first post was that what I said (in my opinion) wasn't an admission to using the claim as a form of fishing.

[Kinetic]

Ghetto edit: for clarification, I'm still against mass claim.

I really don't think I'm for it right now either. I do still think it could work, but until I figure a way beyond the flaw that has been presented I don't feel comfortable pushing it.

[Kinetic]

SSK where is my pbpanalysis?

[Kinetic]

Don't lynch Nat. I've broken the game.

Unvote:Nat

Big post coming.

[Kinetic]

Nat is scum, but I need your guys help to break this game wide open. Are you guys willing to listen to me and give me a little bit of trust? Because for my plan to work I'm going to have to leave you guys in the dark about the final part. However, I won't leave you guys in the dark about the main finding.

First off, Nat is wrong. There are at LEAST 9 win conditions. However, there are only 3 factions. Every body has two types of win conditions, a faction win condition and a race win condition. There are either six or seven races, I'm not sure yet, but I think there might be seven and one race that I can't find, but I'm going to operate on the belief there is only six right now. If there is a seventh (which is what I believe), please someone fill in the blank for me. However, knowing that there is a seventh race doesn't break my plan, but I'm prepared to move forward if there is six or seven. Either way my plan works.

I believe that the Army of Light is the town faction. For this to be true than Vorlons and Shadow must be two OPPOSING mafia factions in this game. Since Nat's first win condition ONLY mentions Shadows, then this win condition must be his faction one. I believe this win condition should also mention the Army of Light, but even if it doesn't then it doesn't matter. He is a Vorlon Operative, and as the Army of Light, we must stop him.

Second, I know he is is trying to push the town away from the Army of Light win condition as town. He's locking onto the Narn as evil. The Narn aren't inherently mafia in this game. All of the race win conditions are RED HERRINGS! They are to put the town at odds with each other so the mafia can win in the chaos. You must ignore these. We must find the Shadow and Vorlon operatives. To do so we must ignore these petty race squabbles. Additionally, I will now post what I believe are all of the races, who they want to kill, and who wants to kill them. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but if I'm right, tell me as well. Here are (what I believe) are all the factions in the game and all of their win conditions.

Faction Win Conditions
Army of Light (Town): Defeat Shadows and Vorlon Operatives
Shadow Operatives(Mafia A): Defeat Vorlons and AOL
Vorlon Operatives(Mafia B): Defeat Shadows and AOL

Race Win Conditions
Minbari: Kill Earthforce and Narn, they are hunted by Babylon 5 and Unaligned Worlds
Earthforce: Kill unaligned and Centauri, are hunted by Babylon 5 and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Earthforce and Minbari, are hunted by unaligned and Narn
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are huned by Narn and Earthforce
Narn: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Centauri and Earth force

It is just a big circle guys. We're all hunting each other and in the end the scum will win. We must ignore these win conditions and work toward the Army of Light win condition. I know you all have it, and if you don't, you're not town. If there is seven race win conditions then a few of the above race win conditions are wrong, but the circle will still be there I'm sure. The race win conditions are meant to break the town up.

There might be other WCs (Survivor, etc etc) but everyone will have a race win condition. I don't know any of the true neutral faction win conditions, if there even are any.

Now, for my plan, and where you're going to have to trust me and give me a little leap of faith.

I propose a race claim. I want to know exactly who everyone's race is. I cannot tell you exactly why I want this. Not yet. But I will tell you this: I have no intention of hunting people specifically of their race. I realize this is similar to my WC claim from earlier, but now that I have all the facts, I'm figured out this game and I'm pretty sure I've broken it, I just need a little more information to put my plan into action.

I PROMISE to reveal my entire plan immediately after the race claim, but I need to have the claim before I reveal this final part.

[Kinetic]

What is Kinetics plan other than we should all claim races and not try to fulfil our race win conditions?

That's the primary plan. There is one other things, but I can't reveal it yet. You'll have to take me on faith for the last part. I will reveal it when the race claim is done though.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, a full and unfettered claim from you would help people decide whether they want to follow your plan.

I should tell you that, without it, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that I'm following your plan.

A full and unfettered claim with the possibility of this plan not being put into action is not acceptable. However, I am prepared to compromise. If this plan is accepted, and this is required from the majority of the other players, I will provide a full claim and not just a race claim.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, a full and unfettered claim from you would help people decide whether they want to follow your plan.

I should tell you that, without it, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that I'm following your plan.

A full and unfettered claim with the possibility of this plan not being put into action is not acceptable. However, I am prepared to compromise. If this plan is accepted, and this is required from the majority of the other players, I will provide a full claim and not just a race claim.

Why would anyone provide you with info with no idea what side you're on?

In any mafia game??

And a full claim you think would prove otherwise? You'll have plenty of room to doubt me no matter what. That isn't the issue here.

Make your judgment. I took a leap of faith that the town would be able to see the depth with which I thought this out and gave you nearly all of my research. I'm pretty sure I'm going to die for this, but I knew that it was worth the risk. I took that risk so that even if I die the town will have a much better chance of winning.

Take a look at my record so far in this game. Yea, some people may think I look scummy, but everything I've done I've done for a reason, one that I'm willing to share if asked, and willing to defend if disputed. I'm not perfect, and I've done some half-cocked things, my first claim idea pretty much was half-cocked, but I knew there was something in the WCs that would blow this game up, I just couldn't figure it out with the information I currently had.

I knew that I made a mistake earlier, and there was a flaw in my original claim idea. I even said I was pretty sure that the races was where the answer lied to fix the flaw. I was right. It took the revelation of RandomGem's role for me to have enough of the puzzle pieces to put it all together.

EVEN if RandomGem's role is fake, I know his WCs are real, even if they're not his own. If they weren't, someone who had the same WCs would have already come out and disputed them.

You're going to have to take a leap of faith, just like I did if you want to win this game. I've given you a fair compromise. I already have the most at stake if this plan succeeds or fails, and I'm willing to put more on the line. But not without at least a commitment from you.

[Kinetic]

Anyone who wants to give away their info is free to do so. I'm not one of them.

So it's 'no thanks' from me.

Now you've splashed the complete list of alignments across the thread, no doubt scum will find something that they'd like to claim, so no doubt they'll join you in your plan.

The claim requires participation from everyone to work dybeck. If the majority of the town agrees to claim, will you claim?

[Kinetic]

Faction Win Conditions
Army of Light (Town): Defeat Shadows and Vorlon Operatives
Shadow Operatives(Mafia A): Defeat Vorlons and AOL
Vorlon Operatives(Mafia B): Defeat Shadows and AOL

Race Win Conditions
Minbari: Kill Earthforce and Narn, they are hunted by Babylon 5 and Unaligned Worlds
Earthforce: Kill unaligned and Centauri, are hunted by Babylon 5 and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Earthforce and Minbari, are hunted by unaligned and Narn
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are huned by Narn and Earthforce
Narn: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Centauri and Earth force

It is just a big circle guys. We're all hunting each other and in the end the scum will win. We must ignore these win conditions and work toward the Army of Light win condition. I know you all have it, and if you don't, you're not town. If there is seven race win conditions then a few of the above race win conditions are wrong, but the circle will still be there I'm sure. The race win conditions are meant to break the town up.

This is a pretty good guess. One correction though. Vorlons and Shadows are technically races. Therefore, I think the faction WC for them would likely be "kill AOL". And the race WC would probably be "kill the other mafia and Babylon 5". I say B5 because that was the main AOL faction in the series (thus the name of the game).

Anyway, like I said, this is a great guess at the structure even though there are some thematic inconsistencies. But it's quite likely that they are what they are due to game balance reasons and seeing how Tar games have gone in the past, it's not impossible for him to throw in a few inconsistencies to confuse those familiar with the theme. To further support that argument, my race win condition (which you correctly mentioned btw) has such inconsistency I'm talking about so relying solely on thematic knowledge isn't a good idea here. At any rate, I would be for the race claim as the faction WC should be easier to achieve.

That being said, I still think Nat is the best lynch for today. I believe that his claim is fake. This guess is supported by Kinetic's theory and my comments regarding shadow/vorlon win conditions. Even if his claim isn't all fake, Naroon was a renegade and very anti-town in the series.

Ah, I know the series as well, but I based my deductions on the series not having anything to do with the game, and only if there maybe resembling some things. I also used the rule the game balance trumpts what happened in the series.

First, Vorlons and Shadow are technically races, however, Vorlon and Shadow OPERATIVES are the younger races being controled by Shadow and Vorlon plots. Thus, Shadow and Vorlon OPERATIVES (who are the target of the AOL win condition, look at it in Tar's post) are a faction, not a race.

Babylon 5 is definately a race, not a faction. And I'll talk to you about the second post later...

Kinetic, wouldn't ever claiming their race just lead to more issues with people pursuing their race WC over the AOL one? Why not just have everyone agree to NEVER claim race, which means no one can ever target another race specifically and therefore has to win via their alignment WC.

No. I'm afraid my big reveal will explain exactly why, but I cannot do that yet.

Because of the circle, you have a balance of power based and assured mutual distruction for the town if we begin trying to go for racial win conditions.

Okay, one is Nat's claim: Anti-shadow. That has no business with either the Light Force or the Vorlons. Their win condition is to get the shadows and neutral survivors dead (one of Nat's early posts was about asking survivors to come out and tell why he shouldn't kill them)

The other one is, as you suspect; the anti-vorlon, the vorlon version of Nat's faction. The reason that I fully believe Nat's claim is that I'm from this faction. If you don't believe me, go on and lynch Nat (or me). Since the role PM's are exposed in the death scene, you'll see that I'm right.

Just telling again that neither the Anti-Shadow or Anti-Vorlon factions need to eliminate the Light Force to win

This post is ... interesting. ...

I can't be sure, but I believe your post actually makes it easier for town to win if we go through with the race claim...

Answer me this... are you Centauri?

I don't think it will work whether I claim or not. Scum will just fake claim now that we've made it so easy for them.

What reason would scum have to claim a false race? In fact, the way my big reveal will show is that they CAN'T pick a false race, I'll know. This was a flaw in the original WC claim, but I made sure this flaw didn't exist before I went forward with this.

Furthermore, one of my win conditions is an anti-faction win condition, so declaring which one it is just makes me a target for nightkill. Which doesn't help me or my faction.

I don't care about your faction win condition. Only your race.

mod is experienced and highly unlikely to have made it so easy.

I present into evidence, Freaktown Large Theme game. The game was a Large game with over 20 people, modded and created by Raj (very experienced mod), Tar and I both played in it. Tar was scum, I was town. The game had a NO REVEAL on death. The town was never sure who was town or scum. There were two scum factions, both of whom could kill up to three times per night. I successfully broke the game and solely won the game from town, out-thought Tar at a pivitol moment in the game, and figured out the ENTIRE set up with less information that I was given in my own role PM for this game. Trust me, figuring out this game was NOT easy, but I did it.

So no, overall, I'm not going to go along with your mysterious, inadequately-informed plan. On Day 1.

That was not my question. My question is, if the majority of the town agrees, do we have to lynch you to figure out your race or will you tell us?

You stated originally you wouldn't entertain the idea without my full claim. I agreed to give it if you agreed to support the race claim. Now you're dialing back and not agreeing to even compromise.

Now it seems to me you never had any intention of even entertaining the idea, and you have been hard set against it from the beginning. Were you just trying to get me to full claim and then leave me hanging without even claiming your race? Sounds scummy...

Role Call so far

Support Plan, unconditionally

Mafia SSK
Theinternet
veerus

Support Plan, with Kinetic Full Reveal

forbiddenlight

Do not support Plan

dybeck
Empking
Nat (doesn't matted since he already claimed...)

Undecided

pacman281292
VisMaior
malthusis
Cybele
armlx
Darox (rep. seraphim)
populartajo
Mana_Ku
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
RandomGem
[hp]leaves
farside22 (rep. Tovarish)

[Kinetic]

Will you at least confess that scum could have some ability that you haven't anticipated?

You refuse to give an inch, until I give a meter, and then you try and negotiate the inch. -.-

I've given you nearly ALL the information I've gathered and am willing to give you more information, at the risk of myself, yet you refuse to even CONSIDER helping me.

Cows could have wings, .9999999 does not equal 1, scum could have some magical ability that I haven't anticipated, but none of these things matter for what I have in mind, nor will they effect the race claim.

Also, I will categorically tell you that at least one of your race WCs is flat wrong.

I see. This is your issue I bet. Interesting. This could mean one of two things. One, there is a seventh race, like I thought there might be, and this is throwing off my math for the six race theory. Either that or something else is wrong with my math... I'll double check and get back to you.

[Kinetic]

Dybeck, in order to figure out where I went wrong, can you at least give me a little information? Did I have your race there at all? If it was, was both or just one of the races as the WC wrong?

I'm trying to narrow down if there are 6 or 7 races, but right now all I have to go on is the Narn/Centauri anomaly and your own comments. If there is a seventh race, it would make a lot of sense, but I can't pin it down...

[Kinetic]

No, I don't think giving scum yet more info is necessary at this point.

I think I've made my point about how half-baked your plan is.

You haven't made any point. In my original post I mentioned there could be six or seven, but that my plan doesn't require there to be six or seven. The reason I posted what I believed the WCs were was mostly just a guess on some of them. However, none of that matters. If there is only six, then that's perfect.

And stop the bullshit about "don't want to give the scum more information". That's anti-town talk. TOWN are the ones who need to share information, and creating dissent, chaos, and misinformation is the role of scum. Stop acting like scum unless you are, and if so then you're doing a fine job and keep it up.

[Kinetic]

Alright, I slept on it and I think I figured out where I went wrong with the WCs.

Here are the updated WCs for all races, if there are 6.

Centauri, kill Unaligned, Narn
Narn, kill Minbari, Nonaligned
Babylon 5, kill Earthforce, Minbari
Nonaligned, kill Centauri, B5
Minbari, kill Narn, Earthforce
Earthforce, kill Babylon 5, Centauri

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, your guesswork is putting the town at risk.

And I'm fairly certain you're not from my faction.

And there's every chance you're scum.

unvote, vote: Kinetic

So you're admitting you're scum?

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, your guesswork is putting the town at risk.

And I'm fairly certain you're not from my faction.

And there's every chance you're scum.

unvote, vote: Kinetic

So you're admitting you're scum?

If this is a serious question, then you have alarmingly less knowledge about this game setup even than your posts so far have revealed.

... -.-

I was joking about the "I'm fairly certain you're not from my faction" and then stating, since I'm of the town faction, "So you're admitting you're scum"...

...

Even if you didn't understand it, you knew it for a joke. Using it as an addition to you very obviously flawed arguments is just an indication of how weak your argument is.

First off, EVERYONE has a racial WC. This WC has nothing to do with the faction/alignment WC. By bringing them out into the open we can use them AGAINST their intended purpose. Their intended purpose was to bring about chaos in the town. For that reason ALONE we should all be for a race claim. The fact is, I have figured out something else, and I refuse to reveal that to you.

You vote me and attack me for revealing TOO much information, but you still want me to reveal MORE information and my refusal to you consider scummy. Contradiction much?

FOS:Dybeck

[Kinetic]

You vote me and attack me for revealing TOO much information, but you still want me to reveal MORE information and my refusal to you consider scummy. Contradiction much?

FOS:Dybeck

There's no contradiction here. I don't like a massclaim. I don't like your fishing.

I wouldn't mind hearing you claim. No dichotomy.

I'm most concerned that you're not actually in an informed minority, and that this whole argument is distracting from lynching them.

Would you at least accept that we should hear from some other people?

unvote

for now.

But your fishing is ok? *rolls eyes*

I'd greatly like to hear from other people, I just want to know from you if you'd try and derail the claim if the majority of people supported it.

More opinions on this, for or against, are needed. Lurkers need to post their feelings please.

[Kinetic]

I do not endorse the race claim as it will have the exact opposite effect Kinetic is saying it will.

As people die we'll learn their race. What will happen when Centauri find that, its true that the town is losing, but if they find ONE MORE NARN they can win? What will happen when any race does that? What if this boils down to a race war? Keeping the races secret, that is what this will become. Doing a race claim when there is an imbalance of power is what this will become. While the races are all balanced is the ONLY time a race claim can have any effect. Once there is a death, everything goes out the window unless we stop it, here and now.

[Kinetic]

Why a FoS instead of a vote pacman?

I'll keep it with what i already said. The race claims should be later. If there are only a few players left, we can use the race claims and the win claims to catch the scum.

Armlx, what do you think will happen if we will race claim now?

Race claims later will be WORSE. The races ahead will KNOW they are ahead. They will be the ones asking for the race claim and at that point it will be a distraction for the town, not a benefit. Finding out the races now we, as a town, will always outnumber a certain race's WC and we can always prevent one from winning. Without the KNOWLEDGE that a certain race is doing that though, there COULD be a power role that finds a race and they could push toward that WC while everyone else is ignorant.

At all times, since there are circular WC and no two races have the same WC, all the other races will out number one race and keep it from winning. And we can keep everyone honest by having a race claim.

[Kinetic]

Additionally, if there is a power role that can figure out the race of someone, the scum cannot lie about their race, because if they are caught that is a definite trap for the scum. Race has nothing to do with their alignment win condition, so there should be 0 reason for them to lie about it. If they do lie about it though, there is always the chance that they will 1) get caught, and 2) mess up the math so that it is OBVIOUS that there is a lying scumbag in a certain race group.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, don't you think that the Vorlons/Shadows have races too?

*Cheshire Cat Grin*

There are two possibilities here Nat. And both of them are VERY bad for scum. You're starting to move toward my big reveal and I'd hope you'll stay off this line of thought.

[Kinetic]

Also Nat, I'd like to ask you, how is your WC worded? What is the exact term they refer to your enemies as (Shadows)

[Kinetic]

Name them.

[Kinetic]

Name them.

One is who needs to be eliminated for a racial victory, and the other is that every player has a racial win condition.

By the way, Minarbi don't need to kill Narn to win.

I'm confused here by this assumption. It sounds like you're saying you're Minbari and that you don't have to kill Narn. However this is in direct conflict with Nat, who also says he's Minbari and says he does need to kill Narn...

I'm also confused by your first point. Do you mean that I have the WCs wrong or that there is something fundamentally wrong about racial WCs in general that I don't have right. If I tie this to your second line, it seems like you're telling me specifically that I have the wrong WCs and there for that's why my assumptions are wrong.

As for every character has a racial WC. Yes, I am making that assumption, but I'm making based on several other deductions. Are you saying you don't have a racial WC? I've yet to hear anybody dispute that point. I'm pretty sure if someone didn't have a race, they would have brought that up by now...

And if your point is that maybe the scum don't have a race. Well that works out BETTER for a race claim...

I'm sorry, but I'm dizzy trying to follow your logic.

[Kinetic]

Moderator Note: Your moderator made an error when sending Darox his role PM (due to sending an older version of the PM). I apologize for the confusion. - Tar

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Now, say what Darox?

[Kinetic]

Also Nat, I'd like to ask you, how is your WC worded? What is the exact term they refer to your enemies as (Shadows)

It is worded as Shadow Operatives.

Ok... I'm willing to entertain the possibility that your character is possibly some sort of neutral. I'm not sure exactly how I like it, and there is a strong possibility I'm still going to prefer your lynch (and consequently hp[leaves] as well), but I'm still going to think about it before I revote.

UNVOTE

For some reason Tar didn't see this I think last time because it still had me voting you...

Anyway, the problem I'm starting to find is that if AOL is the "town", your own WC Nat (and hp) interfere with that slightly. It all depends on the neutrals...

Nat, earlier you stated you knew for a fact that there were at least two survivors. How are you sure of that?

[Kinetic]

As people die we'll learn their race. What will happen when Centauri find that, its true that the town is losing, but if they find ONE MORE NARN they can win? What will happen when any race does that? What if this boils down to a race war? Keeping the races secret, that is what this will become. Doing a race claim when there is an imbalance of power is what this will become. While the races are all balanced is the ONLY time a race claim can have any effect. Once there is a death, everything goes out the window unless we stop it, here and now.

You assume every race knows exactly how many members of each race, including their own, there are. Without this knowledge, the races can't possibly figure out at exactly what point they gain value on focusing on their race WC.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You're assuming I'm assuming something I'm not assuming... There are other ways to skin a cat.

Armlx, what do you think will happen if we will race claim now?

Nothing during the day. But at night I expect a lot of actions to be swayed by claimed races, especially potential vig kills like Nat said.

That is the beauty of a thing.

Kinetic, what makes you assume Nat needs to kill the Shadow Ops and knows the wording from that, as opposed to anything else? Hell, the info was revealed in the thread.

Nat is trying to help the town now. What i was wondering is if Nat's WC directly stated Shadows as opposed to Shadow Operatives. You see, if it mentioned Shadows, and hp's mentioned Vorlons and not Operatives then perhaps something I was mulling over may have fit. I... can't exactly explain everything yet, but it was important.

I don't. It just says Survivors in the plural, so I took an educated guess.

That was what I figured. I just wanted to confirm.

[Kinetic]

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You're assuming I'm assuming something I'm not assuming... There are other ways to skin a cat.

I assumed that was one of your assumptions. Otherwise, how would a race know when another race was at low numbers, or theirs was at high numbers, until the late game.

They wouldn't need to know exact. They'd have to reach the same conclusion I have, which frankly, isn't very hard to reach if you know where to look.

I have several contingencies planed for depending on how exactly things fall out in the race claim. I believe I have prepared for virtually every outcome, otherwise I wouldn't push for this. Part of my big reveal is contingent on certain things falling into place, but by no means if things don't happen exactly as I hope does that mean it ruins my plan. If things go like I hope, I figure we'll have a 70-80% victory rate. If everything goes wrong, it drops to about 55-60%. Not perfect odds, but enough to take the gamble and the pitfalls still put us in a better position then we are now, especially considering it is day 1.

That is the beauty of a thing.

I realize the game is Deep South and there isn't really a night, but all actions resolving at the end of the day is the exact same thing really.

My comment actually doesn't take anything Deep South into account. As far as I'm concerned it is still pretty much a Day/Night game, except that there is no time to prepare during night, everything is just... quicker. Its easier just to think of it as day/night with no planning after a lynch for night actions.

[Kinetic]

They wouldn't need to know exact. They'd have to reach the same conclusion I have, which frankly, isn't very hard to reach if you know where to look.

I realize what your conclusion is. Its possible its just wrong though.

If you are that sure though and have hidden info, I'm down with a claim. Vote to see who starts, then popcorn from there though.

I'd prefer completely random. Popcorn can be effected by scum. By using the forum dice I can draw a random list.

[Kinetic]

Right, you don't want there to be traces of scum influence?

Or do you feel that will be more of an issue then an info source?

Interesting... I didn't think of it that way...

Hmm, you might have something there...

I think I like your idea better .

[Kinetic]

I think that we must try to ignore races; we just need to fulfill ONE OF THE WINNING CONDITIONS. Town/scum is enough; let's play it as a normal Mafia game. We most hunt for scum, not keep discussing about WCs.

-.- Scum?

[Kinetic]

I am fine with Cybele. I'd say Nat but he's already claimed and all... lol

So yea, I'll vote Cybele as well then.

[Kinetic]

I think that we must try to ignore races; we just need to fulfill ONE OF THE WINNING CONDITIONS. Town/scum is enough; let's play it as a normal Mafia game. We most hunt for scum, not keep discussing about WCs.

-.- Scum?

-.- why?
I think that I don't care about who claims first. I'll vote myself to claim first, but still think that this will be a (little) waste of time. Why? because we are lossing time to scumhunt.

Please continue to scum hunt. I'm trying to make your job easier and all you're doing is making mine harder. I never said stop looking for scum. If you haven't gained a whole ton of information thanks to all the discussion this has brought up then you haven't been paying attention.

Hell, if you've gleaned even half of what I have you'll be very well off indeed. And that's even before the claim.

Role Call so far

Support Plan, unconditionally

6
Kinetic

Cybele

Mafia SSK
Theinternet
veerus
RandomGem (Counteracts Nat's doesn't count vote with another vote that frankly... doesn't count.)
armlx ,

Cybele

Support Plan, with Kinetic Full Reveal

1
forbiddenlight

Cybele

Do not support Plan

8
dybeck
Empking
Nat (doesn't matter since he already claimed...)
malthusis
populartajo
pacman281292
Mana_Ku
Darox

Undecided

6
VisMaior
Cybele
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
[hp]leaves
farside22 (rep. Tovarish)

So far the Do Not claims out number the ones who believe its a good idea. I've posed some ideas to those who've opposed the claim and I also expect Darox to change his tune...

Anyway, we still need a few people to make their intentions known and some more discussion it looks like before this is ready to go. Italics are for that person's "vote" to go first in the claim game. Currently we're exactly equal, 7 for and 8 against with 6 currently not voting.

As I'm reading FL's vote as only for if I claim, and against if I don't, thus in order for me to avoid complete claim and the race claim to continue the

Unconditional

votes must outnumber the against votes with counting the full claim as "against" votes, if the full claim votes are required to gain a majority I will full claim, even if the majority of town do not ask me to. I believe that's more than fair.

[Kinetic]

I think RandomGem should decide who should start the claim (if we do this) since his role was officially revealed by the mod's action.

Interesting idea, but it lends itself to the doubt if that is his real role or not. I'm inclined to believe it is his role at this time, but I don't think we can take it as guaranteed until it is guaranteed.

[Kinetic]

The goal is to have scummy people claim first fl, so that the people who think are most likely scum and therefore have the most reason to lie have to least info to base a potential lie off of.

Hm, this makes a lot of sense too... I'd support it.

Yes and also when you are choosing who to claim next, your intent is to pick who you think the scummiest person is. Nailing a scum early in a popcorn claim is the best strategy.

[Kinetic]

We have 11 days to lynch a scum.

Perhaps now might be the time to start thinking about who it might be, particularly since the majority of those voting are against this ridiculous 'plan'.

Hint:

vote: Cybele

You're narrow-mindedness is so very scummy. Your attempts to further your own goal, so much so that you just ignore facts that are presented to you is just laughably and totally scummy.

The majority of those voting, by one vote, of which all those voting for it could very well have had a change of heart since they've last spoken because of new facts that have brought to light, not to mention that the amount of people not voting can EASILY sway the majority....

If there was a solid lead against this movement, and few arguments for it left to be disputed, your position could be possible, but that is not the case. Hell I present that Darox's vote against should not even be coutned until he responds as he was presenting evidence that was proven false BY THE MOD as his reasons for voting against. Thus, the voting is tied.

You've been trying to derail this from the beginning, so much so that even when you GET what you want in return you back away. You keep making contradictory statements of your intent, and plainly ignore when your arguments are logically disputed.

Vote:dybeck

Vote:Dybeck

I feel that Dybeck should have to claim first, this is getting ridiculous. I was willing to give quite a bit leeway that we were just arguing on different points and just because he wasn't on my side I consciously didn't want to just paint him as scummy, but he has gone far beyond that. His reasons are bordering on the ridiculous and his evasions are becoming more apparent and less believable.

[Kinetic]

If we do claim.

I say popcorn starting with Cybele.

So are you for the claim... or against it?

[Kinetic]

veerus wrote:
I think RandomGem should decide who should start the claim (if we do this) since his role was officially revealed by the mod's action.


Interesting idea, but it lends itself to the doubt if that is his real role or not. I'm inclined to believe it is his role at this time, but I don't think we can take it as guaranteed until it is guaranteed.

Why are you guys so sure that the mod was behind this?

Umm, the mod posted it... what do you mean?

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, can I just clarify the next steps of your plan?

1) We vote yay or nay on your plan.
2) If yay, we vote to decide who goes first.
3) That person claims, and they name the next person to claim.
4) Repeat step 3 21 times.
5) You reveal the secret element of your plan.

Have I got it straight in my mind?

That's basically the deal.

malthusis wrote:
Quote:

veerus wrote:
I think RandomGem should decide who should start the claim (if we do this) since his role was officially revealed by the mod's action.


Interesting idea, but it lends itself to the doubt if that is his real role or not. I'm inclined to believe it is his role at this time, but I don't think we can take it as guaranteed until it is guaranteed.



Why are you guys so sure that the mod was behind this?


Umm, the mod posted it... what do you mean?

Thanks FL A role in MS2 died after it's first post but was actually alive and communicated by giving the mod messages to say on it's behalf. Just because the mod said it, I wouldn't exactly be 100% sure that it's the mod's doing. (As in I'm wondering whether someone revealed the true version, or made a fake).

So basically its exactly as I said. There is a possibility that the post is real, and there is a possibility its fake. So... we can't know for sure either way. So deciding anything based on it is premature...

That being said, stop thinking over thinking everything. You and everyone else is just going to out think yourself right out of the truth if you constantly feel the mod is out to get you.

Actually, it's the other way around veerus. The mod was actually a player in MS2, which makes it seem very unlikely that mod posted that PM and more likely someone else did.

I think its pretty obvious that a role of some sort instigated the posting that

the mod

made. What we need to determine is if it was a pro-town role or a scum role. That will tell us if it is true or a deception.

raceclaim might make some weird greedy guys go on and screw the game against town.

I assume Kinetic has information that negates this.

@veerus: 1: Whoops, stupid lazy pacman... I meant raceclaim...
2) Wait, so Shadow and Vorlon have no races?
I have no idea; I've never seen the serie this is based in...

-.-

Everyone has a race.

raceclaim might make some weird greedy guys go on and screw the game against town. That's why I think that we must not WC massclaim. In my opinion, we must only try to ignore the race stuff nowm and possibly make this later.

... First, we have more to be worried about races interfering with the town if no one knows. While we let the possibility of impropriety without consequences, people who are untrustworthy can act with impunity without repercussions. A claim will make it so that people are MORE accountable for their actions, not less.

I'm sorry but this point has been brought up and completely disputed. You're rehashing an argument that holds no water.

Please continue to scum hunt. I'm trying to make your job easier and all you're doing is making mine harder. I never said stop looking for scum. If you haven't gained a whole ton of information thanks to all the discussion this has brought up then you haven't been paying attention.

hmm... the problem is that we are unfocusing discussion with all this stuff. Scum possibly is laughing at us while we run in circles with this claim;

Its Day 1. There has been more discussion, focused, then most day 1s. Additionally, we ARE trying to find scum. If you stopped trying to find scum, that says more about you than anything else.

I don't know how you can think scum is laughing at us, but all I've seen is scummy people acting very very nervous. As for this:

they have no problem with claiming because they can make a true claim and there is no problem.

They have no reason to lie. And?

In my opinion, we must keep hunting through all the stuff we have now, and then go on and keep playing this as a Mafia game.

I'm still playing a mafia game... what are you talking about? This is part of my strategy to catch scum. Most of the stuff we have now we gained because of this discussion. You're making 0 sense. You're jumping from point to point without any logical sense. Its like you're just randomly throwing things out there without deciding if what you're saying even back up the stance you're taking...

FOS:pacman

I'm starting to wonder about you...

However, you do raise a valid point. What I was thinking is there might a third party role that can post results of investigations or something. Or possibly a scum role that can post their fakeclaim through the mod. I mean, it could be any number of things, which is why I wouldn't cleave 100% to it. For now though, I don't see any reason NOT to believe it.

You just gave a reason not to believe it...

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, can I just clarify the next steps of your plan?

1) We vote yay or nay on your plan.
2) If yay, we vote to decide who goes first.
3) That person claims, and they name the next person to claim.
4) Repeat step 3 21 times.
5) You reveal the secret element of your plan.

Have I got it straight in my mind?

That's basically the deal.

And you definitely have some way of telling truth from lies? Because presumably everybody, scum or not, is just going to say 'Army of Light'?

I can honestly say that anyone who states Army of Light is lying scum.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, can I just clarify the next steps of your plan?

1) We vote yay or nay on your plan.
2) If yay, we vote to decide who goes first.
3) That person claims, and they name the next person to claim.
4) Repeat step 3 21 times.
5) You reveal the secret element of your plan.

Have I got it straight in my mind?

That's basically the deal.

And you definitely have some way of telling truth from lies? Because presumably everybody, scum or not, is just going to say 'Army of Light'?

I can honestly say that anyone who states Army of Light is lying scum.

How come?

Because I don't care about your faction WC. If you claim your faction during a RACE CLAIM you're either not paying attention or scum of the highest order. Of course you're going to lie about that if you're scum. Hell even if you're neutral you might lie about it. Nor do I care about your powers. I care about your race, and somewhat of your race WC. There is currently no incentive for scum to lie about it, additionally there are other factors prevalent that if you lie about it it would be bad for the person lying, and bring up questions that are not easily answered.

[Kinetic]

Odd... something weird is happening with a lot of the voting... Is tar just being careless?

It's a Tar game - if there AREN'T major errors in vote counts, something is wrong. (Though I have been sloppier in correcting errors than usual.) - Tar

[Kinetic]

That being said, stop thinking over thinking everything. You and everyone else is just going to out think yourself right out of the truth if you constantly feel the mod is out to get you.

You just gave a reason not to believe it...

Are you saying it's a valid one? I honestly don't think so.

However, I will state that what I meant with that post is judge randomgem on his actions, not what the mod says. I have no reason to disbelieve that is RG's role, since he seems to have been acting townie.

Of course its a valid reason... How much weight you put behind it is your own prerogative, but something that can logically happen is definitely valid. You don't put much faith in it, and honestly I don't either right now, but that doesn't mean you should just forget it.

What I can't understand, is if the person who used the ability is pro-town... why RandomGem? That seems very... random. Is the ability itself random? I don't know, from the way the post made it sound it was as if someone requested the information. And weren't there better choices, even that early in the day? Nat, Cybele, you, me? The choice seems... odd.

But just because it seems odd, doesn't mean that there is anything inherently anti-town about it either. It could be the person using the ability was trying to target apparent lurkers. The timing of RandomGem's own post could be that the user noticed his absence and sudden return and asked the question.

Anyway, current tallies on the Claim Initiative.

Role Call so far

Support Plan, unconditionally

8
Kinetic

dybeck

Mafia SSK
VisMaior

dybeck

[hp]leaves
Theinternet
veerus
RandomGem (Counteracts Nat's doesn't count vote with another vote that frankly... doesn't count.)
armlx ,

Cybele

Support Plan, with Kinetic Full Reveal

1
forbiddenlight

Cybele

Do not support Plan

8
dybeck
Empking
Nat (doesn't matter since he already claimed...)
malthusis
populartajo
pacman281292
Mana_Ku
Darox

Undecided

4
Cybele
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
farside22 (rep. Tovarish)

Current Tally is 9 for (with reveal), 8 against with it being just the opposite without reveal (8 for, 9 against) with 4 abstaining at this time.

Current Popcorn Claim initiators:
Cybele - 2
Dybeck - 2

[Kinetic]

P.S: I really wish more players would participate in the discussion. And where did Cr3t1n disappear of to?

FoS: Cr3t1n

i askd him y he wasnt lookin at other ppl who were lurking n vote vismmaior
then he sed

Uh, VisMajor just voted yesterday.

but that desnt meen vismaior wasnt lurkin b4 that
then he sed this

We need some prodding. Mod: Prod Internet, DGB, Tovarish, and Vismaior.

vismaior is lurking now
l0lwut

he desnt asnwer when i ask him if his suspishus of vismaior

y

maebe becuz he is scum

How about you stop acting like that?

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, you're pushing the race claim way too much. Why do you want it so badly? I haven't you do a single thing to hunt scum. All you've done is comment amount events and defend your big 'plan'.

Unvote, Vote Kinetic

Guys, make sure you're voting Kinetic because you

actually

think he's scum. There's a world of difference between being Not Helpful and being scum. Don't lose sight of the object of the game.

Kinetic, you're pushing the race claim way too much. Why do you want it so badly? I haven't you do a single thing to hunt scum. All you've done is comment amount events and defend your big 'plan'.

Unvote, Vote Kinetic

Guys, make sure you're voting Kinetic because you

actually

think he's scum. There's a world of difference between being Not Helpful and being scum. Don't lose sight of the object of the game.

He's right.

Kinetic's plan may not be the key to the universe, but it doesn't mean he's scum.

Truth be told this sounds a little like distancing from a prepared NK...

[Kinetic]

Hey, ho, lets go.

I don't think the race claim is going to have the effect Kinetic thinks it will.

And without elaborating at all. Grats! You've just received a whole lot of new information, yet your stance hasn't changed at all.

Suspicious?

[Kinetic]

Darox wrote:
Hey, ho, lets go.

I don't think the race claim is going to have the effect Kinetic thinks it will.


And without elaborating at all. Grats! You've just received a whole lot of new information, yet your stance hasn't changed at all.

Suspicious?

How does still disagreeing with your plan equate to being suspicous?

You defending him helps. But it isn't disagreeing with the plan that makes him suspicious. Its disagreeing at first because (I'm assuming) he didn't receive a race in his PM. Then returning after the mod confirmed he received new information and then not adding ANYTHING to the conversation.

He throws in a vague "It won't do what Kinetic thinks it will". First, he doesn't know what I think it will do, second he gives no details about why it wouldn't, even if he knew the first part.

It reeks of scum.

[Kinetic]

So were you just lying when you said these, or are they just a smokescreen?

I'm sorry, but suspecting me because I don't follow the divine faith of your grand master scheme is really stretching.

Plus I love the "He said I wasn't being scummy so he's totally going to nightkill me" line you threw in there.

One, the proof is in the pudding. Those will come true if there is no claim. Two, there is more to it then that... That part you don't know so how can you know if it will work?

I'm not suspecting you because you doubt the plan, although with all the information that is out there, I find that very difficult. I suspect you because I've yet to hear a SINGLE claim on how this would negatively effect the town that was not complete rubbish. You say you don't support it, but you give no reasons to back yourself up. No evidence to the contrary. The best you have is... well, what?

Yet despite that, you are being stubborn for stubborn sake. All I see is you digging your feet in the sand going "I don't wanna!"...

[Kinetic]

Sorry, I've been meaning to post, I've got two exams over the next two days and they're kicking my ass. I'll try to respond quickly...

First, Darox, what you're saying won't happen during the day because of reasons already discussed. I'd go back and find them, but I don't have the time. They've been brought up and disputed.

As for why that wouldn't happen during the night, well, there are reasons why this can't happen... but going into the too much might tip my hand... >> I have thought of your concerns though, and I definitely have a counter for them, but explaining exactly how that works is... tricky...

[Kinetic]

Besides hp and Nat there is only one other survivor.

[Kinetic]

Current Tally

Role Call so far

Support Plan, unconditionally 10

Kinetic
Mafia SSK
VisMaior
[hp]leaves
Theinternet
veerus
RandomGem (Counteracts Nat's doesn't count vote with another vote that frankly... doesn't count.)
armlx
Mana_Ku
Empking

Support Plan, with Kinetic Full Reveal 1

forbiddenlight

Neither for, nor against 1

pacman281292

Do not support Plan 5

dybeck
Nat (doesn't matter since he already claimed...)
malthusis
populartajo
Darox

Undecided 4

Knights of Cydonia (replacing Cybele)
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
farside22 (rep. Tovarish)

Current Tally indicates a 10-6 ratio without claim and a 11-5 ratio with full claim.

I get the feeling that dybeck, Darox, and mal aren't going to change their position. I'm not so sure about Nat and Pop, but who knows. I'd like to hear from the undecided camp, but unless all 4 vote against (and even if they do, the majority of the town is voting for the claim. Unless this changes drastically we should begin the race claim by tomorrow at the latest.

Currently the consensus is either for Knight of Cydonia (based on Cybele's play) or dybeck should begin the claim. Opinions on who everyone thinks should begin the claim should also be discussed asap.

Last, the logical choice for lynch today is Nat or hp[leaves]. They're confirmed mafia biased, even if they're not mafia. Additionally, I'm concerned about their WCs. They're survivor hunters, but they can theoretically win even if dead...

Mod, Question: If Nat or HP are dead, and the town eliminates one of the mafia and all of the survivors die, will HP or Nat (depending on which mafia faction is eliminated) win the game and thus end the game, or are their WCs not game ending WCs (like a Jester)

The game ends when a win condition is fulfilled unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. A faction need not be alive to fulfill its win condition unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. - Tar

[Kinetic]

The claim itself isn't going to break the game completely farside. We will still have to do scum hunting. However I do feel the claim will allow us to focus on certain aspects which will help in scumhunting.

[Kinetic]

No, it means that we have to kill any survivor who claims. We can't give a claim to any scum who might take it. Damn the consequences. I would like to hear Tar's response though...

[Kinetic]

No, it means that we have to kill any survivor who claims. We can't give a claim to any scum who might take it. Damn the consequences. I would like to hear Tar's response though...

He replied.. re-read the post where you asked the question.

That... was not there before... lol. Maybe, I don't remember.

Either way, that doesn't change anything unfortunately. Town has no choice but to kill any claimed survivors. Giving the mafia a safe claim is, not useful, to say the least. Either way, Nat and hp are anti-town, but I doubt they're survivors. They're still the best lynch, per say, but now I'm wondering about it. They're main threat, really, is their WC. But that WC is the same, dead or alive... Maybe... It might be best to kill them in case they ARE survivors and they're just leaving that part out, but I kind of doubt that.

Either way, we need to find scum and lynch them. If we have a better lynch, I'd be willing to move off of Nat/hp, but all the same I'd rather lynch them then most anyone else. A very tough riddle. Maybe lynch one, see his role, and then use that to maybe lynch the other. Hmm...

[Kinetic]

@Kinetic:
I'm still against. Why did you count me as neutral?

Sorry, I was skimming the posts real fast making sure I was updating the post right and I skimmed the post where you said "I don't have problems with raceclaiming." And thought I read that you were neither for nor against it, just that you didn't like the idea. I'll fix it in my next update.

[Kinetic]

I support the hp lynch as well, but we really need to use the last 5 days before deadline to use the race claim...

[Kinetic]

You would Nat.

Anyway, currently it looks like to start:

2 votes dybeck
1-2 votes Knight of Cydonia (Can't remember if Emp was one of the ones voting KoC/Cybele before)
1 vote Darox
1 vote Kinetic (Nat)

[Kinetic]

The game ends when a win condition is fulfilled unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. A faction need not be alive to fulfill its win condition unless that win condition explicitly says otherwise. - Tar

So that explains a lot. Nat and HP are essentially scum without kills.

Also, we simply have to kill one mafia and kill survivors. Actually, even if you kill me, I think my chances of winning are good.

Mod, if all players with a given WC are dead then the WC is achieved, does the game end in a win for that WC?

The answer is yes to this. So either A) hp and Nat are lying and tehy are survivors or their WC has a surviving detail, or B) There are more survivors than anyone realizes...

[Kinetic]

Giant emphasis is that Tar is acknowledging that there are survivor roles in the game. Truth be told, I think I'd rather kill Nat the more I think about it...

[Kinetic]

Giant emphasis is that Tar is acknowledging that there are survivor roles in the game. Truth be told, I think I'd rather kill Nat the more I think about it...

I'd assume that the Survivor roles' win condition is something along the lines of "Be alive when the game ends" which doesn't end the game by itself.

Unless the role explicitly says otherwise. All survivor roles explicitly say they must survive to win. Thus...

[Kinetic]

Let me connect the dots for you.

Nat claimed he is a shadow killer, and wins when all Shadows die, regardless of his mortal state.

Hp claimed the same thing, except for Vorlons, and wins when all the etc etc etc.

If both of these are true, that means it would be physically impossible for the town (Army of Light) to achieve it's win condition of killing both Vorlons and Shadows because as soon as one group died one of hp or nat would win.

I don't think Tar would give the town a physically impossible win condition.
As such, I think hp and nat are lying and that they either need to do more than simply kill their respective groups or they need to be alive when their respect groups get finished off.

Exactly why I think there might be more survivors than we originally realized...

[Kinetic]

No, we also have to kill all survivors, too. So if you avoid killing the survivors...

Then scum claim survivor?

As such, I think hp and nat are lying and that they either need to do more than simply kill their respective groups or they need to be alive when their respect groups get finished off.

This, but I think the later.

If I'm reading armlx correctly, then I agree. We have no choice, but anyone who claims survivor has to be lynched. We can't afford to allow the scum a safe claim.

I'm not so sure about Nat and hp's WCs. I think its more likely that there are 3 survivors. Yes, three sounds right. A third scum group consisting of only survivors.

[Kinetic]

I'm not so sure about Nat and hp's WCs. I think its more likely that there are 3 survivors. Yes, three sounds right. A third scum group consisting of only survivors.

Survivor scum? That sounds like an utterly horrible role. I mean, that's like survivor lovers almost.

Not exactly survivor scum. And I don't mean to say they're a 'group' in the sense they're working together. What I mean is that I believe that there are three survivors.

[Kinetic]

So, for those watching at home, that would mean 10 AOL, 2 OddBalls (Nat/hp), 3 survivors, 3 shadow, 3 vorlon

[Kinetic]

Not exactly survivor scum. And I don't mean to say they're a 'group' in the sense they're working together. What I mean is that I believe that there are three survivors.

Alright then. What makes them different from each other?

I don't know. I'm just speculating at this point. What makes you think they're different?

[Kinetic]

I don't know. I'm just speculating at this point. What makes you think they're different?

Three regular survivors...in a Tar game? Yeah right. Survivor in MS one had that cool power that screwed up vots. Survivor/Serial Killer in MS two had the ability to kill by abilities. Even if this isn't MS, I doubt that Tar would EVER make a vanilla survivor. And I doubt he'd use two of the same type unless maybe they were mason survivors (which would be a cool role, lol)

Interesting. I suppose that possibility exists. But I think its a little too much to speculate on the survivor abilities. I personally can't begin to guess that. What I figure though is that three survivors sounds about right. Who knows, maybe they have a "linked" survivor ability where if one survives they all win. Would make sense given what we know of other factions in the game.

[Kinetic]

Quote:


I don't know. I'm just speculating at this point. What makes you think they're different?


Three regular survivors...in a Tar game? Yeah right. Survivor in MS one had that cool power that screwed up vots. Survivor/Serial Killer in MS two had the ability to kill by abilities. Even if this isn't MS, I doubt that Tar would EVER make a vanilla survivor. And I doubt he'd use two of the same type unless maybe they were mason survivors (which would be a cool role, lol)

I highly doubt it. I personally think they're two scum from the same scumgroup fakeclaiming opposite survivors so they can distance each other. Even if i'm wrong (and I don't) everyone agrees that they aren't town anyways. The question is which one of them should we lynch first?

I think its a given we're going to lynch one of them today. I'm leaning toward hp, but I keep finding reasons to suspect Nat. Nat seems the more likely to be a survivor of the two, while hp seems the more likely to be scum.

[Kinetic]

Where the hell did dybeck go?

[Kinetic]

Nat, you're the only one who wants me to go first, to everyone else its KoC or dybeck, and its SCUMMIEST person goes first. I don't even have any votes on me anymore...

[Kinetic]

Nat, you're the only one who wants me to go first, to everyone else its KoC or dybeck, and its SCUMMIEST person goes first. I don't even have any votes on me anymore...

Yes, but I thought you were claiming.

And KoC/dybeck are avoiding posting for a reason.

o.O? According to the current vote, I'm not the first to race claim, not to mention that the current vote also doesn't require a full claim from me. Plus, I wouldn't give it even if it did until after the RC finished.

[Kinetic]

Mafia, if that's true how about you RC now then

[Kinetic]

Dybeck right now most of the town is leaning towards you or KoC. Can you please start us off and then choose who you want to claim next.

[Kinetic]

I'm thinking we might have to rethink popcorn and just go with claiming now... Certain people, and I think we ALL know who they are, are purposely trying to stall.

I'll go first, hell because no one else will, and I'll reveal my plan before lynch on the last day...

I'm B5, go dybeck or KoC

[Kinetic]

People yet to claim:
MafiaSSK
hpleaves
Mana_Ku
VisMaior
Knight of Cydonia (rep. Cybele)
Darox (rep. seraphim)
populartajo
Empking
DrippingGoofball

[Kinetic]

It sounds like theirs a large amount of b5...

Since the game is themed after a Babylon 5 TV series, I would venture a guess that B5 is a relative majority.

Doubt it.

[Kinetic]

Now that lot's of people did the almighty claim, who do you think we should lynch Kinetic? There's only roughly 2 days left to decide.

I've made myself quite clear on this. Despite Mana_Ku's post (or because of it) we need to know even more if hp and Nat are telling the truth, or if one (or both) are performing a clever ruse.

At this point I'm leaning toward HP, and seeing what Nat's little random ability pulls out of his hat. Although if he suddenly pulls a vig ability I'm pretty sure we can lynch him on the spot no worries.

[Kinetic]

The Epsilon 3 Mod Scene

Even in the best of times, the Zocalo is full of the voices of the angry, the vengeful, the judgemental, and the drunk... but today, with the situation so dire, is even louder than normal. Accusations, recriminations, and lies ring out, all in service of the myriad agendas that now battle for control of the station.

One voice, however, suddenly stands out. It isn't a voice you've heard before (Or is it? It does sound familiar...), which is probably a good thing given that the "person" uttering it appears to be a hologram consisting of orange light. The message, however, is clear enough...

"I have been asked to lay bare RandomGem's soul and show it to you all. This I have done, and this I have seen..."

"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange this for me, Mr. Morden?"

Welcome to Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams,

RandomGem

. You are

Vir Cotto

. As an idealistic, if naive, Centauri, you've decided to help in the fight to save Babylon 5.

You are a

Army of Light/Centauri Member

. You have no special abilities.

You win if you fulfill any one (1) of the following win conditions:

Army of Light Win Condition: All Shadow Operatives and Vorlon Operatives must die.

Centauri Win Condition: All Narn and League of Unaligned Worlds players must die.

Please confirm via return PM.

"I pray that this information will be of service. Remember the third principle. Until we meet again..."

You look around, confused, and then resume your arguing. Will you take these words into account? Or will you disregard them? More importantly, why will you make your decision?

League of Non-Aligned Worlds.

Curious...

Armlx claimed earlier not to have a lot of knowledge about the setting. Yet, one thing I noticed in RandomGem's role PM was that it mis-named the League. Armlx has the correct way that they are referred to (As the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, not the League of Unaligned Worlds)...

You'll even notice me using the two interchangeably in previous posts.

What makes this interesting though, is what Tar did earlier, with a PM that was obviously wrong...

I'm very very interested now in the PM that was posted in the thread that was "supposedly" RandomGem's....

Curious...

[Kinetic]

Nice catch, Kinetic. Are you implying the PM was faked? If so, that begs the obvious question - why? On the other hand, what's the possibility of the mod using the two interchangeably just like you do and making a typo in the role PM. It's been known to happen.

I was using the two interchangeably because I didn't have confirmation which one was the one the mod used. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency at this point. Just something worth noting, but it might mean absolutely nothing.

[Kinetic]

Yea yea, I'm not asking any questions, I'm pretty sure its all just a typo. But I honestly don't know what it would mean if it means anything...

[Kinetic]

Meh, whatever, I'll just post it.

Its Unaligned Worlds. I screwed it up as I was doing Wiki-research on the subject to make sure I didn't have to fake claim my race, and its stated as Non-Aligned Worlds there. The connotation of the race name as well as the race win condition made me think it was possibly "scum" in the whole race part of the game (aka smaller numbers but higher power of roles, though I guess it would have to be uninformed scum which sucks balls). The fact I thought this should be evident from a lot of my earlier responses to Kinetic about unbalanced numbers and what not.

Would you mind telling me if I had the WC right for your race?

[Kinetic]

cretin, you need to race claim while you're still around.

[Kinetic]

Don't worry too much about it RandomGem, Armlx just showed that the inconsistency was on his end. That gives your role pm more concrete foundation.

Either way, what could you quote from your role pm that hasn't already been posted in the forum if that's your real pm, hmm?

[Kinetic]

Name them.

One is who needs to be eliminated for a racial victory, and the other is that every player has a racial win condition.

By the way, Minarbi don't need to kill Narn to win.

Moderator Note: Your moderator made an error when sending Darox his role PM (due to sending an older version of the PM). I apologize for the confusion. - Tar

From these two posts it should be abundantly clear that I am Minarbi.

Possible, but since you said you had two races earlier, it was just as possible that Minbari (especially since you got the wrong WC for them) was not your race.

[Kinetic]

Mana Ku, are you B5 or Unaligned?

[Kinetic]

3 more claims then

[Kinetic]

Request Prod on KOC and MafiaSSK

His V/LA is very, very oddly timed. Maybe a replacement if he is not going to be returning by deadline.

I will not prod players who have declared V/LA until their stated V/LA ends, particularly when they indicated that they would be V/LA this week when signing up for the game (MafiaSSK) or when replacing in (Knight of Cydonia).

I will not be replacing either of these players unless absolutely necessary. I will not extend the deadline unless absolutely necessary. You will be informed if I decide that either of these measures is absolutely necessary; until then, you would be wise to assume that these players will NOT be replaced and that deadline will NOT be extended. - Tar

[Kinetic]

The more I'm looking at it, hp and Nat are willing to help the town find scum. I haven't heard anything like that from Mana_Ku though. Maybe we should be thinking about that...

[Kinetic]

I'm offically lost. The claims confused me more then help. I don't know if I have time to read back and figure out what I missed to understand this game better. I do have a feeling that scum bennifited from the claims more then town in some cases.

With the extension, I'm just waiting on the last two claims. SSK should be back tomorrow and KoC, I have no idea where he is.

[Kinetic]

Mana sounds good.

Unvote, vote MAna

claim please before you disappear again.

Unvote; Vote: MafiaSSK

[Kinetic]

Mana sounds good.

Unvote, vote MAna

claim please before you disappear again.

Unvote; Vote: MafiaSSK

WC or role?

Sure.

[Kinetic]

This is getting annoying from SSK and KoC. At this point I'm about to say the next that race claims gets a pass for today and we're lynching the other to figure out their race the hard way.

[Kinetic]

Currently we have 7 people claiming B5.

If anyone is lying, they have between now and mid-day Saturday to say so. Otherwise, I suggest everyone look very closely at the people who have so far claimed B5. I am willing to bet that one, possibly more than one, is scum.

Additionally, right now I need to know what KoC's alignment is to finish my calculations. There are a few possibilities here, and I need to know which one is right before I unveil, if possible. If anyone can some how get him to come back just to claim race, that would make things a lot simpler.

Unvote;Vote:KOC

[Kinetic]

Absolutely not on the second one.

[Kinetic]

B5 claimers, I'd like you all to name the two people you think are most likely to be scum. I'll name my two with the reveal later.

[Kinetic]

Thanks for the list Mana_Ku. I was going to do it this morning but you saved me the trouble.

If your list is correct, our scum are hiding under the Narn faction. Everyone's roles here (except maybe LoUW) have names that relate to a significant character in the series. Narn had 1 main character and 1 recurring minor character (who probably wouldn't have made the cut anyway). We have 4 claimers. That doesn't jive.

Also, in light of the number of Minbari who have claimed, I'm not so sure about Nat's claim anymore. I was expecting at least 2 claims as there were 2 main characters in the series. I was starting to believe Nat's claim at first as his claim sort of made sense, but now I don't think it's true because it doesn't look like there's room for peripheral, rarely occuring characters in this setup. I think he's our best lynch for today and tomorrow we'll have to quiz Narn claimers and KOC.

Vote: Natirasha

Why is everyone voting for KOC? The only thing I can see against him is that he's V/LA.. and that's hardly scummy since the mod implied that the absense was planned and agreed upon when he replaced in. We have a lot of facts on the table.. let's hold off lynching KOC on pure assumption until we get some facts.

Very very curious post.

B5ers, I wanted to know the two you most thought were scum that have the B5 racial tag. That's it.

Don't use meta because there are 4 Narn and only 1 or 2 in the series. Tar is known for using very obscure and little known characters in games, even going so far as giving main characters as safe claims for the scum. The large amount of B5 tells me that maybe one or two scum panicked and used the race of their safe claim, if they have one...

The 4 Narn are NOT the anomaly, the 7 B5 are. 6 B5, actually, I'm not B5. I said B5 at the beginning as part of my trap, which I'll reveal this part now.

I'm actually Minbari.

I was hoping to see this overflow on B5, but damn I didn't expect it.

But the reason we need KoC's race claim is to find out to which racial faction do the liars in B5 really belong to, and see if we can figure out their race.

Also, I will post my stuff before deadline (maybe later tonight, maybe tomorrow morning), but I'm going to stagger what information I send out seeing who bites to what.

Also, for the doctor in the game, please DO NOT protect me. Protect one of the cops. I'm unNKable already and I'd prefer to have at least one of the cops around tomorrow if possible...

[Kinetic]

Yes, B5 and Minbari have Earthforce in their WC.

[Kinetic]

You're not looking at it from every angle correctly Veerus. One of the scum fake claimed B5. I can prove it.

I need to know what race KoC is.

Second...

STOP LOOKING AT THE THEME IT IS A FUCKING RED HERRING!!!!

I present BOTH Stargate games.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

Both games Tar was in. Both games had VERY obscure characters in it. I'm POSITIVE Tar used this idea when making this game. If you rely on the theme you will FAIL EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I state this now. ALL of my information has been gathered DESPITE the theme, not because of it. Look at the WCs I've posted. They make little sense thematically. But they fit. I got it wrong the first time because I made a wrong assumption. I got them right the second time because I figured out what I was wrong on.

[Kinetic]

I'm pretty sure that either VisMajor is the scum inside B5.

Vote:VisMajor

I believe a lynch of him will be much more enlightening then one of Ku, Nat, or hp. My reveal will support this.

I'm STILL hoping to get KoC here before I do that, but I would like everyone to be ready to vote between now and Monday, particularly Sunday (6pm) to Monday (6pm) I will most likely completely reveal before then if KoC doesn't post by them. But I will be very annoyed if he hasn't by then.

[Kinetic]

I need one of the Earthforce to please tell me if I indeed have their WC correct. That is, are your targets B5 and Centauri.

[Kinetic]

And hell, if one of the Narn can confirm, just to be it, that would be nice too...

[Kinetic]

Holy shit. I'm wrong. Veerus is scum...

He thinks that B5 is the "Obvious town race" so he claimed it...

Unvote:Vote: Veerus

[Kinetic]

You're not looking at it from every angle correctly Veerus. One of the scum fake claimed B5. I can prove it.

I need to know what race KoC is.

Second...

STOP LOOKING AT THE THEME IT IS A FUCKING RED HERRING!!!!

I present BOTH Stargate games.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

Both games Tar was in. Both games had VERY obscure characters in it. I'm POSITIVE Tar used this idea when making this game. If you rely on the theme you will FAIL EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I state this now. ALL of my information has been gathered DESPITE the theme, not because of it. Look at the WCs I've posted. They make little sense thematically. But they fit. I got it wrong the first time because I made a wrong assumption. I got them right the second time because I figured out what I was wrong on.

I'm not sure, but um...I don't think Babylon 5 is the same series as Stargate...

Its not Nat (Nicol=Nat), but it makes sense that Tar would not let a mass claim find the scum. Thus scum are going to either be players you don't expect, or will have very good safe claims. Thus, there are going to be unexpected things, like Narn, who technically should only have 1 or 2 people claiming it have 4 claims. However, 4 is actually perfect because it is mathematically balanced.

[Kinetic]

Holy shit. I'm wrong. Veerus is scum...

He thinks that B5 is the "Obvious town race" so he claimed it...

Unvote:Vote: Veerus

1. I never said B5 was the "obvious town race". Nice job putting words in my mouth.

FOS: Kinetic.

In fact, I said that of the six B5 claimers, as many as two could be Vorlon (aka anti-town).

B5 -- the namesake town faction.

I don't need to put words in your mouth. You put them there quite nicely.

2. Are you implying that you disagree with my theory that anti-Shadow

means

Vorlon? Or vice versa? If I'm right, this means that if you're AOL WC, you need to lynch them. Your WC assumptions, as correct as they may be for the AOL characters, are garbage when talking about scum. I haven't seen a single argument from you about possible scum WC's. And my theory makes sense. While your hesitation to lynch likely scum, or even reveal their possible motivations, does not. Plus you've shifted your vote how many times now?

Yes. I thought that was possible for a little while, but I kept coming to the same conclusions. Ones you'll draw soon as well.

First: Informed Minority. I cannot imagine any INFORMED minority not knowing they were an INFORMED minority.

Second: Their WC doesn't mention the Army of Light. At all. Big thing if the scum don't need to kill the town to win. I trust this from two effectively opposing factions helping each other.

Third: Their abilities don't make sense as scum abilities.

Fourth: Their play does not make sense as pure scum.

So I came to this conclusion. They are scum, of a sort, but they're scum EXTENSIONS. That means they are not of the main scum class, the one AOL needs to kill, they are not the Shadow/Vorlon operatives. What they are is a way to give town beneficial powers, with a secondary twist. They effectively will be trying to help their scum group 'win' per say, since they can virtually win with the group if they kill survivors. But they are not scum themselves.

Either way, they are detrimental to the other scum faction. I fully expect at least one of them to be revealed tomorrow, and hopefully that will answer a LOT of questions.

Its true they are not the best townies. In fact, everything they do we're going to have to watch, but in the end, they are not scum. Lynching them will bring us no closer to winning the game. It won't give us any information if the town agrees to lynch them and it won't lessen the number of scum.

3. I accounted for 3 Narn which means there could be at least one totally random character. So I don't understand your problem with my theory. For your theory to be "mathematically balanced" as your comment implies, if every faction had 4 players, we'd have 24 players, not 21. This makes me think that your theory is not at all a game breaking revelation.

You theory is based on the WRONG MATH. Let me fix it. Each race, to be mathematically balanced, must have to defeat the exact same number of players as every other race to achieve their Win Condition.

See if you can figure it out now.

I'll even give you a hint. That number is 7.

4. Like Nat said.. this isn't Stargate. Unlike Stargate, B5 has multiple clearly defined factions. Stargate's character list had humans (no matter how obscure they were) and non-humans. B5 has lotsa races. I'm not saying they should be held as the absolute truth (as evidenced by the untrue WC's), but this wouldn't be a theme game if it wasn't at least loosely followed. All the claims I've seen (and my character) are all known characters from the series so it is reasonable for me to assume the same for most other players.

So what if this isn't Stargate. The basic premise still applies. Tar will not let this game be broken simply because you ignore the game and try and use the theme to break the game. It won't happen. Tar will have thought it out and not let it be done.

It might be loosely followed, but you're looking for much more rigid rules that must fit then are needed. And the word

known

is a big big word. I really didn't know who Nat's character was until I looked it up (btw he misspelled the name, something I noted but I didn't see anyone else note. Interesting?). I remember him now, but how many characters do you think were named once and forgotten? Lots. I'm SURE there are a lot of them in this game.

While I still think you're town (a feeling that's quickly fading), I don't agree with your theory. A theory that you've put off revealing for yet another day...

You don't agree with something you don't know. I thought you were close, but it seems you were very far off.

I'm not so sure if you're the B5 that's faking anymore, but you're still very high on my list. Plus, if I'm right, there are two scum in the 6 B5. I'm betting on you and VisMajor right now.

[Kinetic]

KoC just posted in another game.

[Kinetic]

How about KoC posts (since I KNOW he's back) and we stop theorizing so we don't let him pick and choose the the theory he likes the most, hmmm?

[Kinetic]

I don't understand the decision to replace Cybele with someone who has barely posted and seems to be avoiding this thread.

[Kinetic]

Wow, did Veerus actually just say that?

Say what? The namesake thing? To think otherwise is ridiculous. The game is themed on revolving around B5, B5 had the most main characters and most of those characters fit the AOL WC. I say this because we have a B5 character claim who's not one of the main 4 commander-type characters from the series (one of whom is my role thus the theory). That alone makes at least 5 B5's. And I can name half a dozen more obscure and well known characters that could be B5-aligned and in the set up.

Plus seems to me I'm not the only one who thinks there are 6 B5 and 3 everyone else and yet I'm the one being chastised for it? Scum bandwagon?

LOL Good job, pointing out the SECOND scummiest person, and linking yourself with him. ROFL. I made this yesterday so I could post it as soon as KoC posted, but with him avoiding the thread, I'd rather give the town all the information it needs with under 24 hours remaining until Deadline.

I'm most for a Veerus or Theinternet Lynch, but honestly anyone in my top 3 I'll switch to. I'll also consider a KoC lynch to confirm his race if he 'magically' re-appears and race claims.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 scum, one from each race, but the 6 B5 is obviously the anomaly, since equal distribution would leave three races with 4, and three races with 3.

We know that there are at least 4 with the non-town WC (I think we can safely assume that Nat has an Anti-Vorlon counter part mutator or something.) But by my theory there COULD be up to 6 by my math.

We do need to figure out if the others (Ku, Nat, hp) are actually scum, but I doubt it (for reasons outlined earlier). Plus we can simply allow the ACTUAL scum, with the NK and all, kill a cop. Even if we have a doc, I'm sure there is only one, and the scum groups have a vested interest in killing the cops of the other race.

However YOU trying to confuse everyone is just pushing me EVEN MORE to think you're one of the scum veerus. The reason I was waiting for KoC was BECAUSE we don't know what he is going to choose. EVEN if he chooses one of Centauri or Earthforce, it still doesn't quite all make sense.

Alright, here is the first assumption:
All races must kill the same number of people to win their race condition claim.

This number is 7.

I originally thought this meant that they had to kill one race that had 4, and one race that had 3. I was mistaken here though. I’m pretty sure, at this point, that there are 5 true B5, and Centauri only have 2 members. However, this doesn’t matter, as both EF and Unaligned have the same race WC, which is to kill Centauri and B5. Which makes it to kill 7. If you add up ALL of the WCs, based on the claims, you’ll see they all add up to 7, with a few anomalies. Here they are:

First, Anyone with B5 in their WC (EF, Unaligned) currently kill 8. This number is too high. Since I severely doubt there is only 1 Centauri, this must mean that the B5ers must be one too many. Additionally, if you want to think “Well a group with the most players might have the hardest WC to fill.” This doesn’t fit either. Under the current numbers, B5 has a max of 5 to kill. There is NO WAY a Race has a WC to kill less people than are currently in it. Even if KoC claims EF or Minbari, that’s still only 6. Very Very Unlikely.

Second, since currently Minbari is 3 and EF is 2, B5’s WC means that they only kill 5 to win, Minbari only needs to kill 6 to win (2 EF, 4 Narn), and Narn only need 6 to win (3 Minbari, 3 Unaligned).

However, if KoC is either EF or Minbari, then if the person hiding inside the B5, because it is the OBVIOUS TOWN, is from either Earthforce or Minbari. The fact that Veerus is trying to tee off on Narn is indicative of him being Minbari actually… curious.

THUS, If we assume that one of the B5 is EF or Minbari, and the KoC is one of B5 or Minbari, then according to the WCs I posted, if they are right, then EVERY RACE has to kill an equal number of players to win, 7.

It’s mathematically perfect.

Now, to find the scum. Here is what we know:

Centauri might have up to 1 scum.

B5 might have up to two scum.

Minbari might have up to 1

EF might have up to 1

Narn might have up to 2

Unaligned might have up to 1.

Let’s go case by case, but leave B5 for last.

Centauri have 2 claimers
This one is easy enough. If RandomGem’s PM posted in the thread is true, then Theinternet is most likely scum. If it isn’t, then he’s town and RG’s scum.

However, EVEN IF Theinternet is not scum, the only balanced likelihood is that he is at best an anti-town role. However, this means RG’s role posted in thread is true. If it is not true, it’s the exact opposite and theinternet is almost assuredly town and RG is scum.

Unaligned have three claimers
Armlx, MafiaSSK, and cretin. Quite the group here. First off, I do not believe that there is either a survivor or a anti-town player in here right now. Because of this, any of the three could be the scum. There is a lot going on here, but up to two of these players could be AOL according to my calculations.

The only way an anti-town player (and thus only one AOL) is in the unaligned faction is if Centauri has an anti-town player and not a scum. This would also mean B5 have two scum in their ranks.

Earthforce should have 3 claimers.
From this group we have a confirmed anti-town in hp. If KoC claims Minbari, then this virtually confirms that Pacman is town. It also shows that the hider in B5 is Earthforce. However, I do believe the hider is Minbari (and in fact, is veerus, which I will explain in depth in the Minbari analysis.

Because of this, Either Pacman or KoC. Currently, they’re both acting VERY scummy, but personally I think I prefer Pacman to KoC.

Minbari should have 4 claimers
Currently we have a confirmed anti-town in Nat, Myself (Kinetic) and Darox claiming Minbari. Additionally, I do believe that veerus could be Minbari hiding in B5. This would be because: B5’s WC is to kill Minbari. Veerus believes B5 to be the two race faction, and keeps confusing this, so he claimed it. He believes NARN are the anomaly, which is one of the races that Minbari must kill.

Thus, if veerus is indeed scum, and indeed Minbari, this virtually clears me and Darox as not Anti-town.

Narn have 4 claimers
Currently we have malt, farside, dybeck and pop in here. Truthfully, this is a very scummy group. Additionally, since Minbari and Narn are directly opposing factions both could very likely have 4 members, I am pretty sure that both a scum and an anti-town player is in this group. The anti-town player most likely has a power ability similar or the same as Nat’s Mutator ability. In my own humble opinion, I believe that pop and malt are those people. I really don’t like dybeck, but since he claimed Narn, I’m starting to think he was against race claim because he felt that Narn were being targeted (Nat came out against them, and then so did RandomGem). I’m not sure though. If I had to guess, I’d put Malt ahead of Pop, and guess Pop was the anti-town and malt was the scum.


B5 should have 5 claimers
The reason I saved this race for last is because it will be the most complicated and have the most contingencies.

Now, since we have 5 players in B5, this could mean 3 things. One, there is a member of each scum group inside B5. This is possible. IF there is, then there is NO scum inside Centauri. However, if that IS the case, then most likely the person who is “scum” in Centauri is really anti-town, and then there will be an anti-town player inside Unaligned. Thus, there is only ONE player in Unaligned who is AOL in this case.

Let’s go on the assumption that there is one scum inside the TRUE 5 B5 claimers.
We know that Ku is anti-town, and that there is only one anti-town inside B5 no matter what. Thus we have 1 scum, at least two AOL, and possibly a third AOL or a survivor among the B5 players.

If there are two scum inside B5, then there is no scum inside Centauri. If that is the case, then there is at least one, but possibly two AOL. In this case there is a low likelihood of a survivor being in B5. If there is no survivor inside B5, then there is only 2 survivors. The highest likelihood for 3 survivors is if there is only one scum inside B5.

However, the MOST likely occurrence is if there are only 2 of each anti-town faction, there are only 2 survivors. The most likely occurrence for this means there is one scum inside the true B5, and three members of AOL.

However, if there are 3 survivors, then there are either two scum or two anti-town players inside B5. Thus there is 3 players that are NOT AOL, and one survivor, thus there is only one player who is AOL in the TRUE B5.

Now, I said all that so I can make my list of People most likely to be scum:
Here is my top ten, in order, of how scummy I find them:

1. Veerus – I’m starting to maybe believe he could be B5. I’m not buying it completely though. If he drops though, VisMajor would be my second guess to the scum fake-race claiming. However, even if he is truly B5, I also believe he could still be scum. Thus he is VERY high on my list.

2. Theinternet – He is very high because of the high chance of him either being scum or anti-town. The only possibility he is not one of these relies on RG PM being a fake.

3. pacman
4. Malt
5. SSK
6. VisMajor
7. dybeck
8. pop
9. darox
10. Creten

[Kinetic]

I'm sorry guys, I made a mistake. I checked my PM too quickly and when I read the words "Babylon 5" early in my PM, I thought that's what I was but in fact, I am EarthForce. Sorry about that.

That means 5 x B5
and we're in fact 3 with EarthForce.

The races remain unequally distributed, with Narn having 4, and Centauri having 2.

I hate you.

But this means if KoC claims Minbari, then I'm still right though.

This will, however, change my vote because without the possibility of veerus not being B5, he drops on my list a bit.

Unvote; Vote Theinternet

I'll repost with more later, that first post took me all night last night to prepare, and what has changed is merely a few names in certain places.

[Kinetic]

I think Kinetic is outguessing the mod too much on the balanced factional distribution among the races, but the even race distribution seems like a very viable assumption.

The reason for a balanced distribution is so that no race combines well with any faction. There is room for exceptions, but this assumption should be viewed as the rule with any changes being made as the exceptions.

One thing to note though, is that it is extremely doubtful that there is any faction with more than one of the same race. I.E. there is only one shadow operative that is B5, and the rest are other races. This is ESPECIALLY true among factions with killing roles. If a faction could disregard their faction WC and win with an unfair advantage with the race WC, it would be unbalanced.

There could be some overlap, resulting in some races not being represented though (i.e. a shadow and a vorlon being within B5, thus centauri have no scum representation)

[Kinetic]

Also, DGB, confirm what the EF's WC is please.

[Kinetic]

Hm.. interesting. Not very true to the story but balanced. I'm sorry you think I was trying to confuse everyone. I was merely trying to fit the setup to the story, but seeing your theory I can now see how you think the story is a red herring.

I always knew you were a logical guy. I think a lot of the reason I thought you were so scummy was because you were going off so illogically. I tend to forget exactly how long it took me to figure out some of this stuff.

What of the survivor and anti-shadow/vorlon WC people.. how do they fit into the balance? If there are 3 survivors and 3 of each scum race operative, they have to only kill 6 and not 7. Or am I confusing the two WC's?

The faction WCs are going to be slightly imbalanced in that way because of several factors. First, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that scum, being the informed minority, are going to have the greatest imbalance. They have to kill about 12-15 people to win.

The anti-town (I am using this word too much, I suppose I'll work with the term 'non-town' when referring collectively to the anti-shadow/vorlon players), thus the 'non-town' are going to be slightly imbalanced as well, however in another way. Their Faction WC is the one that bothers me the most. However, since technically the town only need to kill at most 6 people to win, the 'non-town' only needing to kill 6, or even 5, to win makes a little sense. Additionally since they are such a small group (at most 3, possibly only 2), they all have powers to help them do this. Finally, there could be either 2 or 3 survivors, and I'm pretty sure there is an equal number of survivors as equal to each non-town faction.

I think I know where they are, but if you noticed I was very scarce on where that is in my big post. That is because I don't care enough to reveal them yet. As town, I effectively want to keep them alive to stop the non-town from foiling a town win. Thus, while I think I know where they are, it is effectively anti-town to help the non-town find them, so I'm trying hard not to help them.

Also, what's your definition of "anti-town"? By my definition, Nat/hp/Mana are all anti-town.

I was referring to them as anti-town as well, but that isn't

exactly

right either. They are anti-town, because they have aims that are against those of the town, but technically the town does not need to kill them to win, and we are no further to our own WC by killing them.

Effectively, they are very much like survivors, even if they technically don't need to survive to win. As long as they're useful, we can keep them around, but the scum have MUCH more to fear from them then the town does.

Lastly, I don't think RG's posted role PM is a fake.. I just can't imagine a scenario where someone would want to loudly announce a fake claim on someone who wasn't under pressure at the time. Based on that I suppose I can buy into your theory of the other Centauri being anti-town. Though how do you distinguish that from Nat/hp/Mana?

I feel very much the same way about the role PM.

The last Centauri is either scum or "non-town" if we believe RB's role pm as far as I'm concerned. If he is non-town though, that means there is three of each.

The reason for this is the directly opposing RACIAL factions.

If you look at my WCs, Earthforce and B5 are directly opposing each other, both have it in their WC that the other must die.

Centauri and Unalgined are this way, so are Narn and Minbari.

Additionally since the EF non-town and the B5 non-town have IDENTICAL abilities, this is why I believe the non-town that counters Nat is in Narn.

THUS if there is a non-town in Centauri or the Unaligned, there is one in the other.

SO if the other Centauri is non-town, there are three for each non-town faction, if not, there might be only two.

[Kinetic]

In any way, a lynch of Theinternet is by far our best play. If he is anti-town, its not a total loss, but if he's scum its a HUGE gain.

[Kinetic]

Well, I guess all I can say in my defense is don't outguess the mod, and this is a tar game. I'd also like to raise the theory that all of the anti-x are actually members of one of the mafias using safeclaims. Just a possibility, remember there are 3 of them and 3 of each mafia.

Sure that's absolutely possible. And if one of the claimed cops doesn't die (seeing as they effectively claimed opposite factions) I'd eat my hat. And even if its one of the scum factions claiming different sides of the same coin, I'm willing to wait a day to find 3 scum. Again, if effectively those are all Vorlons or all Shadows, or even a mix, it would be absolutely bad for the other faction not to immediately NK the other.

But even by your theory, it makes 0 sense for ManaKu and hp to effectively protect them with their claims.

The fact that you are SO nonchalant about it, and don't even have any defense makes me think you know you're cooked and you don't want to give away any of your partners.

[Kinetic]

Currently KoC has the most votes. I will (reluctantly) switch if he is decided as the lynch, but I much prefer theinternet.

Either way, we need to make a decision pronto. If you're not voting for one of the two you're not helping.

So vote for one of them or give some good excuse to no lynch. I don't think we have time to vote anyone else anymore.

[Kinetic]

Yes, those are actually the old WCs which dybeck (Narn) told me I had wrong. I redid my math and realized he was right. The correct WCs are actually:

Minbari Narn Earthforce
Babylon 5 Minbari Earthforce
Centauri Unaligned Narn
Unaligned Centauri B5
Narn Minbari Unaligned
EF B5 Centauri

Of these, B5, Minbari, Centauri and Unaligned have been absolutely confirmed. I'm fairly positive Narn is also correct as Dybeck immediately became extremely hostile after I posted these new ones, but no one has 'officially' confirmed either EF or Narn yet.

[Kinetic]

Of which, the only ones wrong at this point are

Babylon 5 (currently 3 Minbari, 3 EF)
And Narn (currently 3 Minbari, 3 Unaligned)

With one player not race claiming. That being KoC.

Thus, if he is Minbari, then everything fits perfectly at 7.

[Kinetic]

i fink thees r the biggest wagons
Knight of Cydonia (4) - pacman281292, Natirasha, armlx, dybeck
Natirasha (2) - farside22, malthusis
The Internet (3) - Kinetic, fobiddanlight, veerus
hp [leaves] (2) - Darox, Empking

the dedline is 2day n we need 12 voets to lynch

unvoet

i will voet 4 Koc or theinternet
i want 2 vote KoC becuz hes not postin here

kinetic, r u only voeting him becuz of ur theory?

Not the only reason, no, but is it the primary reason, yes, and also the reason which pushes me more toward him than KoC.

Like I said, I'm disgusted by KoC's absence. It's making me think he's more likely scum, but I'm so close to positive that at the worst Theinternet is anti-town. I agree, the claimed non-towns at this point are not really a big target, but an unclaimed one is just as dangerous as scum, and if I hit an unclaimed non-town instead of scum, I won't feel bad about it at all.

Plus, Theinternet's play has been curious from the beginning and his response to my vote was, quite simply, the scummiest thing I've seen this game.

Unaligned: Kill B5 and Minbari

this is rong
its centauri n babylon 5

[/quote]

Beat ya to it .

[Kinetic]

unvote;vote:KoC

If you're telling the truth dybeck...

[Kinetic]

Dybeck, if farside doesn't post before deadline, I'm going to have to reveal what I believe is your secret. This is for the good of the town as I've realized my thwory is slightly wrong. I'll need to correct it.

At this point, The Internet is not off the hook (he's still made some scummy moves), but my theory doesn't 100% guarantee he's scum either.

I need some sleep and to think about exactly what needs to be done. Suffice to say, I was afraid of this, and I'm glad my theory can still adapt. I'm pretty sure I've figure it all out now (and ironically, this makes my idea fit perfectly with what I originally though), and yea, I'm tired.

[Kinetic]

Well, we may as well test Kinetic's theory.

Vote: The Internet

scum scum scum scum scummity scum scum scum.

Deadline is in like three hours guys. Can we lynch this scum so we can find out exactly what his race is.

Second, please don't hammer until I post again, I need to change some things around and post them.

Everyone else who is guessing at WCs, please stop unless you are EF or Narn and want to claim your WC completely. I'm pretty sure I have it right now, and I'll have another big post before deadline. Either way KoC needs to die methinks.

[Kinetic]

unvote:
vote: KOC

I see him BW and not pay attention to what is actually going on = scummy.

Farside, claim your race's Win Condition, per dybeck's request, to make sure you're Narn.

[Kinetic]

%^$#^&%#&^%&*#$&%^#$%^&$*^$&%^#%#$^&#*$*%^&$%$%

[Kinetic]

So you're Centauri then and NOT Narn? How the hell do you claim something that is NOT your race and barely MENTIONED in your PM!?

[Kinetic]

Oddly enough, him claiming Centauri non-town virtually assures Theinternet is scum, rofl.

>><<

Of course, that is assuming we believe him.

So 1 in these two (Farside, Theinternet) is scum.

[Kinetic]

God if it wasn't so close to deadline (2 hours away) I'd push a farside lynch.

[Kinetic]

ANYONE ELSE lie?

[Kinetic]

Oddly enough, dybeck has come out of this looking the most townish...

[Kinetic]

Ok, Looks like I was fucking right the fucking first time I thought up this theory but people messing around messed me up. I tried to adapt and I failed.

There are either:

6 AOL
3 Anti-Shadow
3 Anti-Vorlon
3 Survivors
3 Shadow Operatives
3 Vorlon Operatives

-OR-

9 AOL
2 Anti Shadow
2 Anti-Vorlon
2 Survivors
3 Shadow Operatives
3 Vorlon Operatives

More coming.

Keep your votes on KoC and vote him if you see this. We need to lynch someone, and while I no longer believe he's the BEST lynch, he's the best lynch we're going to get in the next two hours, if we get a lynch.

[Kinetic]

Farside just counterclaimed himself and I'm cursing at the board.

[Kinetic]

So you're Centauri then and NOT Narn? How the hell do you claim something that is NOT your race and barely MENTIONED in your PM!?

Because I saw the B5 and Narn and thought maybe I read my role wrong. I thought the game was based on a person's scumminess not a role. I will ask for a replacement if you are just basing this on roles now because I don't know what the fuck it means.

You were asked to FREAKING CLAIM and you LIED. You should be lynched for THAT. And THEN you exasperated it by when you REALIZED YOU LIED to tried to COVER IT UP.

That is SCUMMY! That is why you should be LYNCHED. Not because of your role, because now WE CAN'T TRUST YOU!

[Kinetic]

This whole thing was messed up because TOWNIES lied, or atleast they're claiming to be townies and lying.

The whole point of this was I thought that if SCUM tried to lie I could catch them, but ONLY if the townies told the truth. AS SOON as a townie began lying, this whole thing was blown out of wack.

[Kinetic]

I'm in, but I don't think we'll have time. Why is farside more scum than KoC though?

Because he lied, tried to cover it up, much like you did. Except you spontaneously helped us out by when you noticed your error you reported it. Farside, on the other hand, had to be CAUGHT IN HIS LIE by dybeck before he recanted. And WHEN HE DID, he recanted as non-town. Although it makes 0 sense for him to be that non-town role.

Scummy scummy scummy, and if it wasn't just over an hour to deadline I'd psycho lynch him, but KoC is the only person we can possibly get to lynch in this time, and even THAT doesn't look certain.

KoC STILL hasn't race claimed.

[Kinetic]

Question.

Could this game be so easily breakable simply by stating our races? If so we'll be shooting fish in a barrel and will win before Xmas.

Easy? EASY? God, I hate you. Of course it wouldn't be EASY. You think any of this is EASY?

$^#%^#%$&^$#%#@@%^&$*(#*$&^

Its a tool. It HELPS. It doesn't do the whole job for you. But it should help focus your attention. All it required was townies not being idiots.

[Kinetic]

Tomorrow, while we're lynching farside, we need to know why DGB is derailing this lynch by posting with no vote.

I'm almost positive I know what the WC is now, and I'm an idiot for not noticing it sooner. Let me ask you this,

These are the two WCs I've posted for Narn:

Narn: Kill Centauri and B5,

Narn Minbari Unaligned

In each of them, do I have at least one race correct?

If so, then I know your WC and I won't say it explicitly in the thread until Pop or Malt post and try and confirm it.

[Kinetic]

Current KoC votes, under an hour until deadline:

Knight of Cydonia (rep. Cybele) (10) - pacman281292, Natirasha, armlx, Kinetic, forbiddanlight, dybeck, Mana_Ku, forbiddenlight, farside, creten

So we have 9 or 10, and we NEED at least 2, maybe three more, not sure if any of these people unvoted since the last count.

More information:

Someone in B5 is still lying. No matter what KoC comes up with, the person lying in B5 can be any race EXCEPT the one that KoC is. However, the MOST LIKELY occurrence is that

A) Neither KoC or the person in B5 lying is EF
and B) KoC and the liar are part of either Minbari/Narn, Centauri/Unaligned. That means, if KoC comes up as Minbari or Narn, then the liar is Centauri or Unaligned.

Unfortunately this means a LOT of things, and I can't go into too much detail because it will take too long.

I'm pretty sure that the racial distribution is: 4/4/4/3/3/3
I'm pretty sure the faction distribution is 6/3/3/3/3/3

I'm pretty sure that I know the WCs (now), but I'm leaving this out until tomorrow. I'll be here, there is virtually no way to kill me at night (the only way to kill me I'm not revealing, so screw your scum). Even so, there are claimed power roles which are much bigger targets than I am. But on the very off chance they get lucky as sin, I'm trying to dump as much as I can about the setting and who I think are scum.

[Kinetic]

Ok, new information allows me to get a better picture on the game:

Narn, Minbari, and Centauri have 3 per race
B5, Unaligned, and EF have 4 per race

This changes a lot of things...

God I can't even begin to analyze them all....

Only thing I know for sure is that KoC is STILL acting scummy, there is someone lying inside the B5 claimed group, and that I want to shoot myself.

[Kinetic]

Ok, new information allows me to get a better picture on the game:

Narn, Minbari, and Centauri have 3 per race
B5, Unaligned, and EF have 4 per race

Sounds plausible, but how do you know this?

With the correct Win Conditions I now can figure out distribution correctly based on what we know:

Minbari Narn Earthforce
Babylon 5 Minbari Earthforce
Centauri Unaligned Narn
Unaligned Centauri B5
Narn Unaligned Centauri
EF B5 Minbari

First, on the assumption that every race WC has to kill 7 people, thus they must attack someone with 4 and someone with three.

That puts the current WCs at

Minbari 6
B5 6
Centauri 6
Unaligned 8
Narn 6
EF 8

Assuming now that at least 4 of the B5 are not lying, that leaves us with one who is. Plus we have KoC who STILL hasn't claimed. So I needed to place two wild cards in so that all numbers equaled 7.

By adding one to EF I get:

Minbari 7
B5 7
Cenauri 6
Unaligned 8
Narn 6
EF 8

And by taking one from B5 and adding one to unaligned I get:

7 for all.

Thus if KoC is Unaligned or EF then the person hiding inside B5 is the other one.

[Kinetic]

I think I just realized a flaw in your plan Kinetic. (All though I still agree with lynching KoC today). What would scum gain from claiming a different race then their own? Couldn't they just claim their own race and be able to prove it easily?

That's not a flaw, that's what we call a reason to claim your real race. That was expected to make people not lie, since there was no incentive to do so and there was a VERY real possibility of being caught, like farside was.

[Kinetic]

Alright, among the races THERE ARE

Narn: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Minbari: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Centauri: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
B5: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
EF: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Unaligned: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town

What we know, what we suspect, and what that leaves us:

Narn: No claims, any of the three can be any of the three
Minbari: Nat claims non-town, Scum must be either Kinetic or Darox (i.e. DAROX IS SCUM)
Centauri: Farside "claims" non-town, RG proven AOL, leaves TheInternet as either the TRUE non-town, or scum. I actually think Theinternet is more likely scum.
B5: ManaKu Claimed non-town, veerus, VisMajor, Forbiddenlight and empking, of these up to TWO could be scum
EF: hp claims non-town, KOC could be in this group. If he is and not scum then either pacman or DGB is SCUM
Unaligned: No claims, all or none could be scum. If KoC is of this faction and not scum, then one of them is scum.

I'll give my personal list asap.

[Kinetic]

Also, the main reason this game might be broken is because the "Non-Town" WCs started claiming. If they didn't, the race claim would have done virtually nothing. I'm pretty sure Tar never counted on the "non-town" claiming. It makes no sense.

[Kinetic]

My top ten list of scum:

Darox Minbari
Theinternet Centauri
Farside Centauri
VisMajor B5
Veerus B5
DGB EF
Empking B5
Malt Narn
ForbiddenLight B5


Contingencies:
If Koc comes up EF and scum, drop all remaining EF off the list
If KoC comes up EF and not scum, raise DGB and pacman a lot as likely scum
If KoC comes up Unaligned and scum, the list doesn't change much as I think the other unaligned at this point are not very scummy. It would drop them into virtually confirmed town or non-town though for me
If KoC comes up Unaligned and not scum, Armlx, creten and SSK will rise on my list, SSK will be the highest.

If KoC comes up as anything else then fuck me I'm pretty sure a lot of things are wrong with my theory and it should prob either be radically changed or thrown out entirely.

[Kinetic]

I can confirm the LoUW win con.

Minbari: Kill Unaligned and Earthforce, are hunted by B5 and Earthforce
Earthforce: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Narn and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Centauri and Minbari, are hunted by Earthforce and Unaligned
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are hunted by B5 and Narn
Narn: Kill Earthforce and Narn, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri

This can't be right, as the Minbari and Centauri WC's would be exactly the same, and you have the Narn committing suicide.

I still laugh at myself... oops.

VOTE FOR KOC NOWWWWWWWWW

[Kinetic]

true enough, lol.

I think we need two more. Where the hell is everyone. Who the hell disappears when a deadline is a approaching and doesn't at least check in.

hell, how does half the town disappear!?!

[Kinetic]

There's been a lot of posting in the last little while.

Anyone reading through should note that if they fail to read it all, the bottom line is that we're lynching Knight of Cydonia.

You win the understatement of the year award. This thread has seen nearly 4 pages in the past 17 or so hours (since my last post). I just got home from work and am trying to catch up on everything.

1.

unvote; Vote: KoC

2. Kinetic, you must've done really well in your logic class... Tar must hate you. (assuming you're right, which sure is hard to dispute right now)

SOMEONE HAMMER KoC!!!!!!!!!!!!

And thank you. lol.

[Kinetic]

Alright, among the races THERE ARE

Narn: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Minbari: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Centauri: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
B5: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
EF: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town
Unaligned: One AOL, One Scum, One Non-Town

Isn't this 18?.. The game has 21 players. Or did I miss something?

Its 18. No I won't tell you why.

[Kinetic]

farside didnt claim scum
she claimed anti-something but thats not scum

there IS NOT ONE TOWN in this game

I wanted Kinetic to explain himself.

O, sorry. You're right, farside claimed "non-town". The reason I don't believe him is because he claimed it under pressure of being caught in a lie. One that there was really no reason for town or scum to lie, but that I kept hinting that if the scum didn't lie I'd catch them. Truth be told,t here never was a full-proof way to catch scum with race claim, and I never said there was, but I implied it heavily to see if scum would slip.

Plus, his claim wasn't a spontaneous thing like you meant to help the town. If he made a mistake, after he realized it he decided to hide that mistake. That screams of someone who is either scum or very close. He knew that as well, thus he HAD to claim something, and non-town is the perfect claim.

If he would have come out and just said, like you did, he made a race mistake, that was one thing. Hell he wouldn't even have had to faction claim, although it would have made us VERY suspicious, just like I'm suspicious of you. I haven't let you off the hook. But compared to you, what farside did was FAR greater a deception.

He had to be CAUGHT in his lie though, and since he KNEW it was extremely scummy, he had to think of something to offset it, thus the 'convenient' non-town claim that just so happened to mirror Nat's.

I think that is incredibly damning evidence, but its odd because between him and theinternet, I actually find internet more scummy, if by a VERY slim margin.

[Kinetic]

Minbari: Kill Unaligned and Earthforce, are hunted by B5 and Earthforce
Earthforce: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Narn and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Centauri and Minbari, are hunted by Earthforce and Unaligned
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are hunted by B5 and Narn
Narn: Kill Earthforce and Narn, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri

I'm not sure who posted this and when (I'm guessing Kinetic and sometime in the past 17 hours ), but the B5 condition is wrong.

B5 needs to kill EF and Minbari.

No, I always had the right B5 one, that was pacman working with incomplete information trying to fix something that wasn't exactly broken. My latest post on the WCs has all the correct WCs which have been confirmed my members of the claiming races.

[Kinetic]

Also guys, we have at least 12 hours of twilight (according to the rules), so any discussion can continue. I'd love if KoC would still race claim (rofl).

[Kinetic]

So, I believe that creten is an alt for someone else. I want to know who so I can mess with that person in other games and post illegibly to them. This is obviously his way of fucking with people and I don't appreciate it.

[Kinetic]

Also can someone who can be bothered please check that that is a lynch?

Yea, I'll double check, also, while I'm checking, anyone who is hanging in the wings VOTE KoC just in case.

[Kinetic]

Working backwards:

DGB, veerus, malt, creten, farside, forbiddenlight, Kinetic, Mana_Ku voted for him since the last VC.

Last VC:
Knight of Cydonia (rep. Cybele) (6) - pacman281292, Natirasha, armlx, Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon), forbiddanlight, dybeck (rep. soaperguy29)

Since then Kinetic and FL have unvoted and then revoted him, bringing the total to 12 as long as Pacman, dybeck, Nat and Arm are truly still voting him.

[Kinetic]

I thought I was voting for KoC, I forgot I switched to veerus.

In any even I cannot imagine any scenario where KoC is town. I think he's scum that's given up.

vote: Knight of Cydonia

DIE SCUM DIE

DGB.. please unvote first... Tar does not count votes that weren't unvoted.

I think DGB already unvoted and currently had no vote, but I'll double check.

[Kinetic]

No, I had not unvoted veerus.

unvote, vote: KnightofCydonia

KRAP I loathe, hate, despise mods that are anal with unvoting.

Would it be considered a rule <1a> violation of DGB or Tar if a no-lynch was forced because someone forgot to unvote? That would be funny. (ironic funny, not haha funny)

[Kinetic]

No, I had not unvoted veerus.

unvote, vote: KnightofCydonia

KRAP I loathe, hate, despise mods that are anal with unvoting.

Would it be considered a rule <1a> violation of DGB or Tar if a no-lynch was forced because someone forgot to unvote? That would be funny. (ironic funny, not haha funny)

If she's scum, that's technically a good way to look like you tried to help with the lynch when in fact you didn't. It's far-stretched, I know. I'm hoping Tar won't be that anal since she did it the right way very quick-like.

Yea, that's why I'm thinking it would be a <1a> violation for her if she's scum and intended not to vote <1a> for tar if she's town or if she intended to vote (because that's jackassery from the mod in my opinion if he didn't let it go.)

Either way I just noticed that pop posted in another game on this forum within the last hour (6:22). Good job posting in a game when one of your games is within an hour of deadline.

BIG scum tell imho.

[Kinetic]

You remember that pop got replaced and they haven't found a replacement, right?

No, i didn't.

[Kinetic]

Umm, I'm not exactly sure, but I'm going to assume that the twilight is the time between a hammer and when Tar tells us what happens between the days. So my guess is that he'll tell us what happened with the lynch and any beginning of day actions, and then let us loose immediately.

Pretty much, yeah - players don't know the result of the lynch/actions until the beginning of Day 2. Or until I feel really generous. Whichever comes first.

Twilight is mainly for giving players who want to want to know who is lynched before submitting an ability (and procrastinating/lazy/short on time players) one last chance to submit their ability. I'll stop having twilights once players get used to how my Twilight/Deep South setups work. - Tar

[Kinetic]

%^$^&*(*%$#@$%^&*()&(&$*^$%#@$$%^*&$(%(*(^*%&$^#%

[Kinetic]

The only way that works (an preserves one of my theories) is if either: Myself, Nat, or Darox is really EF or Unaligned

There is really only 3 in B5 (meaning two people are false claiming) and there is truly 4 in both Narn and Centauri.

Those would be the only way to preserve my theory (that each race must kill 7 to win)

It doesn't really effect my theory that factions are distributed among races, but it changes how things might be. As well, what KoC's faction is also changes that. We'll have to see what that is before I can make any further determinations.