Read Your Role Mafia - Game Over

[SensFan]

Vote: Yaw

, he knows why.

[SensFan]

Oh, so you didn't

really

want to play in a game with me, Sens?

Wait, what? I meant that we agreed I would vote you to distance us...

[SensFan]

I wonder if the mafia can recruit.

Bit of an odd thing to be wondering, isn't it? You know, given the posted role PMs and who our mod is.

How is it odd? never played a petrolium game before so is his modding style different or something>

He absolutely detests any form of Cult. I feel very confidant in saying there is no Cult in this game.

[SensFan]

There is ABSOLUTELY no recruitment.

Fixed it for you. Seriously, what don't people get about the fact that Jelly will never use a Cult in his games?

[SensFan]

Didn't realize game had started. Sorry.

Vote: Natirasha

Good enough for me.

Vote: Nat

[SensFan]

Didn't realize game had started. Sorry.

Vote: Natirasha

Good enough for me.

Vote: Nat

Sens...

I assume that anyone voting themselves wants to be lynched. Note that my vote is a serious one.

[SensFan]

I'm not getting this....
Well, judging from Natirasha's sig and other things, I'd say this is normal of him...

I'm not getting it either, Sensfan knows me well enough to know I do this in every game.

I have never played a game with TownNat, for the record. Our only completed game is AA.

[SensFan]

Voting for someone who votes for himself is stupid. If there was a Joker role, he wouldn't make it obvious like that.

Why would a pro-Town role ever vote themselves?

[SensFan]

Voting for someone who votes for himself is stupid. If there was a Joker role, he wouldn't make it obvious like that.

Why would a pro-Town role ever vote themselves?

Beats me.

Cool, so no reason. Seraphim just demonstrated why anti-Town roles would vote themselves.

[SensFan]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Natirasha

1. Natirasha always votes himself day one.
2. Natirasha is always anti-town.

Yay, explanation!

Yay, etter Day 1 lynch than most!

[SensFan]

No. I personally don't like a "policy lynch Nat" attitude. I like a "let's actually scum hunt and get information, and come to a LOGICAL conclusion if we must lynch anyone, even Nat".

I agree entirely with all of that post. I never said anything about wanting a policy lynch.

[SensFan]

Ok, we're on page 4 and nobody's really given me an excuse yet. Who are we bandwagoning? I sort of hate bandwagoning entirely at random, but we're almost at that point.

A shadowgirl wagon would be good.

Oh, how come?

Nat does that every game, I believe, so I don't think it's an indicator to his alignment.

I should totally start to speak only in Russian, vote in every post based on a dice roll, and quote my PM if I'm alive in LyLo in every game.

[SensFan]

1 -- Arguing about completely pointless things for too long is what was stopping us from getting a good bandwagon going, and actually heading into the scumhunting phase. It isn't necessarily a good thing.

I'd disagree with that, actually. I think it led to some discussion, at least, which was not occuring before I pressured Nat. Obviously I'm not willing to lynch Nat based on a self-vote, but its an early wagon, like any other.

[SensFan]

So you are upset that I had a problem with ooba's voting methods and took away from a wagon that you wanted to happen?

Sounds like it. For the record, that's a genuine reason for him to be upset.

[SensFan]

2)I don't care if he regurgitates his reason is the same as another persons, it is a reason, and that is the point. I am not going to guess why someone votes another person if they don't say why, they just vote and expect us to know why.

You're on your own on that one, then. Don't expect people to parrot other's reasoning, when its pretty clear why they're voting, like in this case.

[SensFan]

Yaw's list, sorted by post-count for easier reference.

forbiddanlight -- 24 posts, last post yesterday
Yaw -- 20 posts, last post yesterday (before this one, obv)
wolframnhart -- 19 posts, last post yesterday
Caboose -- 17 posts, last post yesterday
SensFan -- 15 posts, last post yesterday
ShadowGirl -- 9 posts, last post yesterday
MafiaSSK -- 8 posts, last post yesterday
ooba -- 8 posts, last post yesterday
charter -- 7 posts, last post yesterday
Natirasha -- 6 posts, last post yesterday
RandomGem -- 4 posts, last post Sunday
Seraphim -- 4 posts, last post Sunday
SocioPath -- 2 posts, last post Sunday
Electra -- 2 posts, last post yesterday

[SensFan]

Here, sorry for absense, but Thanksgiving+birthday+transpo home from school=busy times.

Read what I missed, and I really don't like Nat's attitude. Then again, I find him to be anti-Town in every game we've played. Although he has been anti-Town in both those games...

Anyways, SSK needs to explain, but I also want charter to expand on why he considers me Town because I am debating simple stuff.

[SensFan]

because

he thinks

I am debating simple stuff.

[SensFan]

I don't agree with that, but I understand how someone else would think it works.

@Sens, it goes to that newbie game where you were arguing with Romanus. A lot of what you were posting was (in my opinion) dumb. I saw the 'why would a pro-town role vote themselves' arguing to be identical in nature as your 'scum trying to appear helpful one' in NG 638.

Completely unrelated. And I still think "Scum try to look helpful, so the fact you are really helpful means you might be Scum" is very dumb.

[SensFan]

You don't have to read. You just have to answer two things:

1 -- Provide specifics on what you meant by charter's meta.

2 -- Explain how your use of meta on charter is different from his use of meta on Sensfan, if you believe these uses are different.

You can read for other stuff afterwards.

He's pretty clearly stalling for time. Not only does he not have to read anything, but the thread is so small that he can''t possibly be "still reading". I mean, since he claimed he had to re-read, I've read the entirety of Kingmaker II...

[SensFan]

Oh, forgot to

Vote: MafiaSSK

.

[SensFan]

I want a claim from SocioPath.

[SensFan]

I want a claim from SocioPath.

This should happen before the day ends and before SSK claims.

[SensFan]

Vote: SocioPath

.

Happy?

[SensFan]

Vote: SocioPath

.

Happy?

Sure, to an extent.

I'll claim this: if it hasn't been apparent, I'm not a townie.

Also remember that there are 4 different win conditions in this game, and with that said, I win with the town.

If I get more votes from people actually contributing that still feel they need to know more, then I'll go into more detail.

Awesome, now you reinforced even more the need for a full claim. Scum tend to only care if you are Townie or Power, so they have all the info as if you had full-claimed. Town, on the other hand, gain very little from a 'not Townie' claim.

[SensFan]

Awesome, now you reinforced even more the need for a full claim. Scum tend to only care if you are Townie or Power, so they have all the info as if you had full-claimed. Town, on the other hand, gain very little from a 'not Townie' claim.

Yeah, that'd be true, normally. This game has different mechanics though, and thats mostly with the roles themselves.

I also noted that your vote to get me to claim, was less than 2 full minutes after my post before that, just saying.

I still support a full-claim.

And are you implying that it's scummy for you and I to be online at the same time? This is very different to someone who doesn't post for a week or more and shows up within a day of getting negative attention. That's a really bad last sentence, if you ask me.

[SensFan]

forbidden (or anyone other than me, for the sake of making sure SP doesn't call it OMGUS), do you agree with how bad it was that I'm supposedly scummy for posting 2 mins after him?

[SensFan]

forbidden (or anyone other than me, for the sake of making sure SP doesn't call it OMGUS), do you agree with how bad it was that I'm supposedly scummy for posting 2 mins after him?

I don't believe it is scummy at all because I have voted or posted after someone before only because I did not preview before posting. And to nit pick after someone for two whole minutes is just ridiculous. Had it been two days, i could see SP's point, but it wasn't so it almost seems like he is just trying to attack whatever he can out of Sens posting.

One of us misunderstood something. I read his post saying that he would only listen to the demands for claims from people that had voted him. I understood the statement about the 2mins as saying that I was scummy for being so quick to vote him after he 'called me out' for not voting him.

[SensFan]

And are you implying that it's scummy for you and I to be online at the same time? This is very different to someone who doesn't post for a week or more and shows up within a day of getting negative attention. That's a really bad last sentence, if you ask me.

No, I was implying that you probably jumped to voting without even fully reading my large chunk of words, unless you faster reader than most.

I read every word you posted. Took me about 3 minutes, but I read it.

Also, because I didn't think about bringing it up earlier, your statements of no cult because the mod hates them go under 'trying to out-guess the mod.'

Especially since the first post states:

4.)

There are at least four different alignments (i.e. win conditions) in this game.

8.)

All Cultists deaths will be revealed as either “Cult Leader”, or “[Former Role], Cultist”, where [Former Role] will be replaced by the appropriate former role name.

9.)

Despite the fact that this game is titled “read your role mafia”, in no way am I trying to have a “gotcha!” moment based on misleading wording in your role PM. However, I

am

trying to emphasize that some roles have particular

nuances

, and instead of playing “hide the ball”, I want you to realize these nuances and take them into account while playing.

Those rules together, I think pretty much garentees a cult, that you might be the leader of. (It'd make sense: use previous meta to rule it out, then snatch up the town.)

Are you aware of PJ's views on Cults?

If not, go read them.
If so, stop saying stuff that's obviously false.

[SensFan]

EBWOP:

I am perfectly happy to go on record and state that it would be dumb beyond belief to so much as consider that there might be even a 0.0001% chance of a Cult. This applies until there is a dead Cult member.

[SensFan]

...If its a renaming of a Scum group, its not a Cult.

Seriously, I fail to comprehend how you can even begin to think that his views on Cults would be misnomers, given how ridiculously passionately anti-Cult he is.

[SensFan]

Hey PJ, is there a Cult in this game?

[SensFan]

I find it my policy to never, ever lynch

a claimed power role

Mafia on Day 1. Ever. If he's still alive on Day 2, well, then we have a problem. But, for Day 1...no, that's stupid. It's bad play.

Just saying...

[SensFan]

Unvote, vote Sociopath

Intention to hammer or just putting on another vote?

He's still reading the thread. Expect a response in 7-10 business days, assuming fair weather.

[SensFan]

or was the stuff before that just the argument about PMs (which IMO, was just a misunderstanding).

He claimed non-Townie, in my eyes. Therefore, he needed to full-claim.

[SensFan]

Random, plan on responding to the post 2 yours where I explain my push for a claim?

[SensFan]

SensFan: Oops, sorry.

or was the stuff before that just the argument about PMs (which IMO, was just a misunderstanding).

He claimed non-Townie, in my eyes. Therefore, he needed to full-claim.

Okay... I guess you were right after Yaw, which isn't really much of a bandwagon, and you explained that you wanted more than a non-townie claim later... but on the other hand, you could have made that up after the fact for all I know. That wondering is exactly the reason why I don't like the 3 calls for a claim without any real backing.

Did you expect a post that said "SP just soft-claimed non-Townie, whether he knows it or not. I think he should claim now."?

[SensFan]

The point was more that you didn't vote.

Meh, I didn't necessarily want a wagon when I asked for a claim. I only voted when he asked me to.

[SensFan]

Ok. Did the calls for a claim have anything to do with Yaw's call for a bandwagon? I'm just uncomfortable with the way SocioPath's wagon popped up suddenly.

I explained VERY CLEARLY EXACTLY why I asked for a claim. Are you purposefully ignoring me?

[SensFan]

Fine. I'll claim I'm a Survivor. I had basically given up on this game but I guess I shouldn't. Surior should be an easy enough win condition to fulfill.

You need to start scumhunting, or you WILL be lynched.

[SensFan]

Oh, right, sorry. I forgot that its impossible for Scum to claim Survivor. Nevermind, then, keep lurking like shit, by claiming Survivor, you confirmed yourself to be non-Scum.

Have a nice, lurkish, day!

[SensFan]

Oh, right, sorry. I forgot that its impossible for Scum to claim Survivor. Nevermind, then, keep lurking like shit, by claiming Survivor, you confirmed yourself to be non-Scum.

Have a nice, lurkish, day!

Sorry. I forgot it wa sa popular scum claim. I'll scum hunt more than.

You know, I would think that the fact you're a so-called Survivor would make you even more likely to contribute. If you get lynched, that's it, you lose. No chance for your more

competent

helpful to pull out a win.

[SensFan]

Oh, right, sorry. I forgot that its impossible for Scum to claim Survivor. Nevermind, then, keep lurking like shit, by claiming Survivor, you confirmed yourself to be non-Scum.

Have a nice, lurkish, day!

Sorry. I forgot it wa sa popular scum claim. I'll scum hunt more than.

You know, I would think that the fact you're a so-called Survivor would make you even more likely to contribute. If you get lynched, that's it, you lose. No chance for your more

competent

helpful to pull out a win.

I haven't known how to play a Survivor.

Hunt Scum well enough to avoid a lynch. Don't hunt Scum well enough to be killed.

At this point, you need to focus on the first part. Especially since you claimed a non-Town role.

[SensFan]

Sens, why are you instructing SSK?

I'm telling him to scumhunt...

It also seems like you're giving him a free pass, why.

I'm not giving him a free pass at all. I'm literally doing the opposite, since I've told him to contribute or be lynched. I just don't think he's the play today *shrug*

[SensFan]

Well, one of those deaths last night appears to have been self-inflicted, so I'm not convinced there would be two more deaths. (Read ShadowGirl's role again.)

I'm aware of that. It's just multiple factions that worries me

Four factions, right? Couldn't it be Town, Mafia, SSK, ShadowGirl?

[SensFan]

After

he flipped Town

...I d

o

n't like the Sociopath lynch

in hindsight

. After his roleclaim, I quickly backed off

so I would look pro-Town after he flipped.

. I thought his

self-admitted very weak

roleclaim was solid and really have no idea why people continued to vote for him

since I knew he was Town

. The case against him

is a great way to throw a bunch of suspicions

.

I'm still thinking about either voting for Electra or voting for Yaw(who, I believe, started that bandwagon), so

I think I'll wait to seen which of these wagons someone else starts, so I can use this logic on that person tomorrow!

...

I want everyone who was on that bandwagon at the end of the day

(after I unvoted, of course)

, sans MafiaSSK(Yaw, Caboose, forbiddanlight, SensFan, Electra) to explain their reasoning on their vote on Sociopath

so that I can hopefully jump on 2-3 of you or more

.

[SensFan]

Yaw, can I get at least a yes/no/maybe/comical 4th option out of you in regards to my paraphrasing of Seraphim's post?

[SensFan]

Do you see it as valid and true, though?

Sephiroth, I noticed you didn't comment on it. Any particular reasons?

Vote: Sephiroth

[SensFan]

I went from Yaw's post

[SensFan]

I was against the SP lynch from the get-go. I voted for him to get a roleclaim. That was

it

. Once I recieved that, I unvoted.

And you think the people who stayed on the wagon because they thought he was Scum are scummy?

[SensFan]

Whoops,

Vote: Seraphim

[SensFan]

Now, Sensfan...

And you think the people who stayed on the wagon because they thought he was Scum are scummy?

I believe it's entirely possible(in fact, very probable) that some/one of the people on the SP lynch are/is scum.

You missed my point completely.

You claim that you were on the wagon, but you didn't think SP was Scum, but you wanted a claim. You also claim that the people that were on the wagon because they, you know, thought SP was scummy are scummy.

Do you not see the inherent flaw there?

[SensFan]

Kinda surprised I have to quote this for you, but whatever.

I'm kinda glad that ShadowGirl is dead. She would be working to keep certain people alive to win, which might incude scum.

After deep thinking...I didn't like the Sociopath lynch. After his roleclaim, I quickly backed off. I thought his roleclaim was solid and really have no idea why people continued to vote for him. The case against him was incredibly weak.

I'm still thinking about either voting for Electra or voting for Yaw(who, I believe, started that bandwagon), so...

I want everyone who was on that bandwagon at the end of the day, sans MafiaSSK(Yaw, Caboose, forbiddanlight, SensFan, Electra) to explain their reasoning on their vote on Sociopath.

I believe it's entirely possible(in fact, very probable) that some/one of the people on the SP lynch are/is scum.

[SensFan]

Why do you like a MafiaSSK lynch? You vote for MafiaSSK but spend the entire post attacking me. And seeing as I've already posted my defense on all of your points, I don't feel a need to repeat myself.

And I don't think your defense really fits. I'll try to get more specific when I have more time. As for MafiaSSK, he's first a claimed survivor, and second, has been incredibly scummy in that he hasn't said anything helpful and he hasn't even been trying to put his thoughts out there.

I agree with Forbidden here, but would it be better to try and find someone who is actual scum? I realize survivor isn't a town role, but would it be best to save SSK's lynch until another date? Only reason i ask is everyone seems to be voting him due to his survivor role and if we analyze the wagon tomorrow it might be harder to pick apart what scum members might have been on the wagon (i realize he has acted scummy but survivor role seems to be the main point in the votes)

Wolf. What you fail to realize here is that SSK might as well be Scum, for all intents and purposes. Even if he actually is a Survivor (which we don't know), he

will

flip to Scum at LyLo.

[SensFan]

Actually, I don't even think I'm voting him.

Unvote, Vote: MafiaSSK

[SensFan]

That's L-1, by the way, if my count is correct.

He's claimed already.

[SensFan]

forbiddan, if the majority of the people agree on lynching SSK, is there really a lot more discussion that needs to be done?

[SensFan]

If today's lynch has been decided, we can't actually wagon anyone else. Therefore, the only people that discussion helps is Scum, since they will make a decision based on any information gained before we will make a decision.

[SensFan]

He can respond tomorrow, for God's sake. Seriously, you;ve made your point. What good will come of a ton of discussion, seeing as we have decided on a lynch?

[SensFan]

Isn't discussion for the most part pro town? Townies use the day as their tool to fight scum. There's no point ending the day early if there are things to be said. If everyone is ok with ending then day, then a hammer is justified. I'm ambivalent myself, since I've said my piece, I'd just like to see more people checking in.

Discussion is pro-Town during the Day. At the point we were at, it was basically Night, though, since the lynch had been decided. The Scum would be submitting a kill (and discussing privately) after the discussion before the Town would be lynching someone. Therefore, the discussion only helps the Scum, since otherwise it can happen tomorrow without the Scum being able to plan around or killed based on that discussion.

[SensFan]

omg, you guys are so annoying. That's what I actually thought.

Anyway, I will claim since no one wants to respond to me. I'm a cop, I know that Sens and Seraphim are not the same alignment, and I think that Sens is town. Hence I find Seraphim to be scum. His claim of vanilla does nothing for me.

Explain exactly how your claimed role works. No one else talk about his result or his role until this is answered.

[SensFan]

Every night I submit a name and I get told if the person I submitted is the same alignment as the last person I submitted. The first night I get told that it's not the same, but since I don't have a submission before that, it's meaningless.

Night 1: Sens
Night 2: Seraphim - not same

Not liking this claim. Seems like a VERY weird mechanic, and your claims targets are poor choices. Well, then first one is, anyways.

[SensFan]

I can't target myself.

@ Sens - Obviously it's a weird mechanic, are you surprised considering the game? You just don't like me. Why is the first target a poor choice? I chose you because I thought you were likely to be town and therefore a good base point for investigations.

I find it very weird and useless. I also am finding it incredibly likely that you are Scum looking to grab 2 mislynches.

Oh, and way to answer to my request for the EXACT mechanics, then when others point out the lack of logic behind your choices, add another restriction...

[SensFan]

and your claims targets are poor choices.

Why, just because she targeted you?

[...]

I don't like the way you crap all over Electra's supposed use of her supposed night action, Sens.

I'm pretty sure I explained very clearly why I called her choice poor, actually, but nice misrep. I asked her to explain the EXACT mechanics of her role, and only after people questionned her choice (of which I was not the first to do, by the way) did she mention that she couldn't self-target.

[SensFan]

I'm pretty sure I explained very clearly why I called her choice poor, actually, but nice misrep.

Really?

Not liking this claim. Seems like a VERY weird mechanic, and your claims targets are poor choices. Well, then first one is, anyways.

I find it very weird and useless. I also am finding it incredibly likely that you are Scum looking to grab 2 mislynches.

Oh, and way to answer to my request for the EXACT mechanics, then when others point out the lack of logic behind your choices, add another restriction...

I don't see where you explain how Electra's choice is poor

anywhere

. Also, I don't see what I misrepresented.

I asked her to explain the EXACT mechanics of her role, and only after people questionned her choice (of which I was not the first to do, by the way) did she mention that she couldn't self-target.

So, the fact that she left out a detail the first time she explained it makes you "not like" the roleclaim?

Sorry, I thought I had commented on it, but I think it was pretty obvious that I was talking about the same thing forbiddan was.

And yes, very much so. She was asked by several people (yourself included, if I recall correctly) to give EXACT details. She made (what was as far as anyone could tell) a full claim, including targets are everything. Then her target was criticized.

Then

she gave an additional 'detail' that 'explained' her choice of target.

[SensFan]

Sorry, I thought I had commented on it, but I think it was pretty obvious that I was talking about the same thing forbiddan was.

Nothing is obvious in mafia. reread your own posts before attacking someone calling you out.

I'm still waiting to hear what I misrepresented in this post.

Seems like a VERY weird mechanic

Given the roles that we've seen already, why are you surprised by this?

and your claims targets are poor choices.

Why, just because she targeted you?

I also am finding it incredibly likely that you are Scum looking to grab 2 mislynches.

The same thing could be said about you, Sens. You could get Electra lynched today and then if she flips cop, get Sera lynched tomorrow.

I don't like the way you crap all over Electra's supposed use of her supposed night action, Sens.

The fact that I attacked the change of detail, and not that I was investigated.

[SensFan]

What does the added detail have anything to do with the claimed choices? Given the restriction of not being able to target herself, what makes Electra's night targets poor?

You have it backwards. Her choice makes no sense under the original role given. When she was critisized for that, she THEN added a restriction that makes her choices look better.

[SensFan]

@ Sens - Do you think Seraphim is town now, then?

I have no idea. I just don't like your claim.

[SensFan]

Also, you don't like my claim, what does that mean? That you don't believe it? If you don't believe it but you think Seraphim is scum, that makes no sense.

This is just plain incorrect, and I'm sure you know it.

[SensFan]

I would like Empking, Electra, Seraphim, Sens, and wolf to read and comment on post 578.

Yes, I know. I will get there.

Seraphim, lynching me only tests Electra's claim to you. Same with lynching you to me, which is why I do not think lynching you is the play here.

[SensFan]

Also, you don't like my claim, what does that mean? That you don't believe it?

If you don't believe it but you think Seraphim is scum, that makes no sense.

This is just plain incorrect, and I'm sure you know it.

What is incorrect? I am not saying something that could _possibly_ be incorrect. I'm asking you questions.

That statement is a BLATENT false conclusion.

You have made like 8 posts that are extremely short and have yet to address anything.

Yeah, whatever. I've been kinda busy with school.

I don't think Seraphim is cleared, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense for you to be a serial killer. This would also explain charter's post - I don't think he would do it if you were scum with him, but if he thought you were town, then it would make sense. It would definitely explain your reluctance to address this situation because unless Seraphim is scum, a lynching of any of us would result in a lynching of you and you can't win unless you are alive at the end.

This is wrong on several counts, but I don't have time right now.

[SensFan]

Just pointing out that I essentially claimed cop for this game and I haven't been counterclaimed.

Just pointing out that means shit all.

[SensFan]

Just pointing out that I essentially claimed cop for this game and I haven't been counterclaimed.

Just pointing out that means shit all.

Why?

The assumption that each game has a Cop is a ridiculously flawed one, and one I'm sure you know.

You continue to make short posts that address nothing and have no backing and are just plain rude.

Like I said, I've been very busy. And I haven't said anything rude.

You say you're busy but apparently this doesn't keep you from being on Mafiascum, it just keeps you from posting any content.

That's just plain wrong. My access has been low lately, and I haven't made big posts in ANY games I'm in.

unvote

,

vote:SensFan

Welcome to L-1.

Whatever. Certainly not claiming until I've made a defence.

[SensFan]

It's simple; if SensFan flips town, then Electra is scum.

If SensFan is scum, then Electra is mostly likely town.

Vote stands. SensFan, now is a good time to claim.

By that logic, you should be offering to self-lynch, since the above applies to me as well.

[SensFan]

Why would Seraphim want to lynch a confirmed townie (to himself). Seriously, talk about read your role .

He is claiming that I should be lynched because it will tell HIM who the Scum is. By the logic, he should be lynched because it will tell me who the Scum is.

[SensFan]

Clearly it does. If I should be lynched, to the point of him demanding a claim, because it would tell HIM the Electra is Scum, why shouldn't he be lynched so it tells ME Electra is Scum.

*Assuming we are both Town.

[SensFan]

He knows his alignment. He doesn't know yours. Your lynch will reveal to him who is scum. Therefore, his lynch won't (to him). However, from your perspective, it's reversed.

Why should his perspective be worth a damn, though? I just don't see how he can possibly justify demanding a claim for me on the basis that lynching me will tell him (and only him) that Electra is Scum.

*Again, assuming both of us are Town.

[SensFan]

Because it is very likely that you are scum?

You see me as having 1/2 chance of being Scum, statistically. How is that "very likely"?

forbiddan, I'm not claiming until tomorrow, at least, after I've defended myself.

[SensFan]

I personally believe Electra's claim

Any particular reason you believe a prematre, unprompted, claim of vague investigative role that requires two lynches to prove?

[SensFan]

I have my own opinions about other members of the town, but I want to know what other people think.

Wanting to fit in much?

[SensFan]

I'm really not seeing how people are faliling to see this.

Electra came out and made a very vague "Sens and Seraphim aren't the same alignment, btw" post. This rang several bells in my mind, and left me wondering WHAT Electra was claiming, so I asked for

[SensFan]

I'm really not seeing how people are faliling to see this.

Electra came out and made a very vague "Sens and Seraphim aren't the same alignment, btw" post. This rang several bells in my mind, and left me wondering WHAT Electra was claiming, so I asked for her to "explain exactly how your claimed role works", which I thought made it more than clear that she was to give out all of the information.

She replied that "every night, [she] submits a name." Not "another player's name" or "a name of someone else", but "a name". Nothing about "a name" even comes remotely close to saying that she cannot self-target.

Then, forbiddanlight questioned why Electra wouldn't target herself Night 1. I added that I also didn't like the claimed first choice. Only then does Electra decide to add on that she cannot target herself.

Now, some of you seem to think this is such a small detail that it doesn't matter. Had she claimed normally, I would agree 100% with you, but she didn't. She was asked for "exactly how [her] claimed role works" and she gave an explanation in response to that post, no where saying that she was holding anything back, and so it should be assumed that was exactly how her role works. If that is the case, she can target herself.

Electra, does your PM specifically say you cannot target yourself?

[SensFan]

I have my own opinions about other members of the town, but I want to know what other people think.

Wanting to fit in much?

Rude much?

Nope. Not at all, actually.

Really, your defense is just more rehashing on the whole I can't target myself thing?

Well, seeing as that's the only reason anyone has given me for voting me all the way to Lynch-1...

Not only that, but you have failed to give any reason that it does matter.

That's plainly untrue, though. I have explained several times why adding that detail made your claim look better, since it removed a source of critisism.

Also, while you requested a 100% role claim, that does not mean I have to comply.

Right, but if you don't specify that you didn't fully claim, its assumed you did, considering how explicit I was in asking for one.

It wasn't intentional for me to not include the part about not targeting myself (I didn't even think about that stipulation when I was claiming)

Yay for invalidating the previous point!

but assuming I have some other part in my role, for example, if mafia targets me for a kill, they get an extra night kill, I certainly would not claim that because there is no reason for the town to know this and the information is only beneficial for the mafia.

Not being able to self-target doesn't help the Mafia, mind talking about relevant things?

Also, there is no point to saying that I was holding anything back

If you ever planned on even thinking of maybe hinting at having a chance of there being another clause in your role, you should have said as much.

one, because if I said this, then the natural response would be to demand what I'm holding back

So you explain that you won't.

and two, in this case, I didn't consider this to be holding something back.

You really do like to invalidate your argument, don't you?

I'm really not seeing how this is important still, and I'm certainly not seeing why this specifically would cause anyone to not believe my claim.

I've explained it several times.

My PM does indeed say that I can't target myself. Does that matter?

Yes, very much. If you have been asked for an EXACT claim, don't you think that you should at least be paraphrasing everything that is in your PM, especially as it pertains to the mechanics of your role?

[SensFan]

Well, seeing as that's the only reason anyone has given me for voting me all the way to Lynch-1...

Really?

Yes, really. That whole post is "I don't like the way you attack the claim, Vote: Sens".

Any particular reason you believe a prematre

How was it premature? She had a result, came out on Day 2 and tried to gather info and couldn't do so, so she claimed.

So the Cop should always claim as soon as they have a result, even Day 2, in a large, with no tangeable information?

unprompted,

Does the cop need to be prompted to share her findings?

Of course not. Note how this isn't a Cop.

claim of vague investigative role that requires two lynches to prove?

I don't think that Electra was vague. She investigates 2 people and sees if they are of the same alignment. There's not much gray area there.

I was obviously talking about her ORIGINAL claim, which was very vague.

[SensFan]

you'll quickly notice I've wanted Electra dead from day 1, even before her claim.

So as soon as she claims Cop, you decide to trust her?

I'm just following here because Sens's reaction(looking for holes in Electra's claim) looks a lot more scummy than anything Electra has done up to this point.

I haven't been looking for holes at all, actually. In fact, as I'm sure you've noticed, I have only ever attacked one exact part of it.

[SensFan]

Sens defense just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repetition is doing much for you.

The attack on Sens just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repitition is doing much for the town.

[SensFan]

The attack on Sens just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repitition is doing much for the town.

The attack on Sens is backed up by scummy actions as well as a role.

scummy actions = attacking a convinient change on a weak claim
role = weak claim that changed to accomodate criticism

[SensFan]

So, Sens, you plan on claiming, since you're at L-1 and you've defended yourself?

If everyone on my wagon +1 asks for one, yes.

[SensFan]

scummy actions = attacking a convinient change on a weak claim
role = weak claim that changed to accomodate criticism

Yeah...right

If everyone on my wagon +1 asks for one, yes.

Thanks for being unhelpful. I have no qualms about a hammer at this point in time.

Really? That's ridiculous. How is it unhelpful to ensure that, you know, I will be lynched without claiming, before I claim. I mean, that's kinda the only time you should claim...

[SensFan]

No. I said if everyone on my wagon and 1 person who is not on my wagon asks me to claim, I will.

[SensFan]

Fine.

I am Peeping Tom, and can target 2 people each Night. I will learn if 1 of those people sent in an action, both of them did, or neither of them did. I can target myself.

Night 1, SensFan and Yaw both submitted an action.
Night 2, 1 of Seraphim and Caboose submitted an action.

[SensFan]

Fine.

I am Peeping Tom, and can target 2 people each Night. I will learn if 1 of those people sent in an action, both of them did, or neither of them did. I can target myself.

Night 1, SensFan and Yaw both submitted an action.
Night 2, 1 of Seraphim and Caboose submitted an action.

What's your alignment?

Town.

[SensFan]

I very clearly read my role PM. Why do you continue to imply I'm not Town?

[SensFan]

I very clearly read my role PM. Why do you continue to imply I'm not Town?

I'm not, I'm just trying to make sure so that I can make sense of you and Electra's results.

Electra, Sens, or Seraphim is lying. Assuming that both Sens and Electra are telling the truth, that leaves Seraphim as scum. But then, that leaves me with a dilemma. If Sens is telling the truth, then Sera is probably not scum...

I'm really not seeing Electra lying about her role. I don't see how she could just make something up like the role she claimed. From ooba's flip, I could see how Electra's investigations are in pairs too.

Either that, or Sens' role is scum role, which I can see. Sens finds out that Yaw has a night action night 1 and then Yaw gets NKed night 2, which is pretty fishy to me (that's assuming that Sens is telling the truth about how he used his supposed role).

Can you explain why me telling the truth implies Seraphim isn't Scum?

[SensFan]

Question for Sens: why not use your ability every night on yourself and one other person?

I plan to do it on and off. Selecting myself lets me hone in on someone else and get a very accurate result. Choosing to select to other people lets me get a wider read, though.

[SensFan]

Caboose, I also have a question for you: did you send in a night action last night? If you're some sort of power role, then it's very probable that Electra is actually the one lying here. Because if Sens really is telling the truth, then Electra is clearly lying scum. We have both claimed town at this point. We should try and attempt to see if you have any sort of power role in order to prove SensFan's roleclaim.

Because I certainly didn't send in any night actions last night. I'm just vanilla.

I'll describe my role later, but yes, I do have a night action.

Will wait to read this.

Why the hell does it matter? What matters is that he just confirmed my role.

[SensFan]

Why again would my role be a Scum role?

[SensFan]

Why again would my role be a Scum role?

You can see who has night actions and who doesn't, helps with finding the power roles.

True. That's no different than saying a claimed Watcher/Tracker/Role Cop/etc is Scum, though.

[SensFan]

Vote Sens Fan

. The way he's defending his claim feels a lot like crap logic and false comparison. "Oh, well Watchers/Trackers/ Role cops can be scum roles too", rather than explaining why the way he used it benefits the town...I don't think I'm explaining it properly, but it feels like Sens is the liar.

The argument against me was literally "That role could benefit Scum, thus Scum role." How is "That can be said of any claim (including Electra's, given the multiple alignments" not a fair defense.

And obviously the use of my role, just like any Tracker/Watcher/Role Cop/Electra's Role/etc... is to bust fakeclaims.

[SensFan]

How is it a false comparison?

Mostly the fact that 2 of those three roles have a meta of being protown, I believe.[/quote]
First of all, no. More importantly, though, this role has no meta.

[SensFan]

That's right. I haven't decided yet, although I lean towards Seraphim or forbiddan.

[SensFan]

That's right. I haven't decided yet, although I lean towards Seraphim or forbiddan.

'
Reason for the FL suspicion?

"The role could help Scum, so its probably Scum, I think. I can't really explain it. Oh, and you can't compare it to the roles it was probably based off of, since they have a meta of being Town."

[SensFan]

First of all, no. More importantly, though, this role has no meta.

Making your comparison invalid

Umm...no. It was very clearly based off of Watcher/Tracker/Role Cop. It accomplishes a little of all of them, in a sense.

[SensFan]

"The role could help Scum, so its probably Scum, I think. I can't really explain it. Oh, and you can't compare it to the roles it was probably based off of, since they have a meta of being Town."

ie, OMGUS. Anyone who's played with me will quite well realize I ALWAYS have this problem, and it frustrates me when I'm right.

a) I don't believe I've every played with you
b) You just admitted my reasoning wasn't OMGUS
c) You threw in Appeal to Emotion

[SensFan]

48ish hours to deadline, so putting my vote where my mouth is,

Vote: forbiddan

[SensFan]

c) "Oh, I hate it when I'm right and no one believes me!" Want to explain what purpose that serves, other than try and get a 'sympathy vote'?
b) You said "Yeah, OMGUS". Thing is, what I described is not OMGUS...
a) Can you at least explain exactly what "this problem" is?

[SensFan]

c) Way to avoid the question. "Oh, I hate it when I'm right and no one believes me!" Want to explain what purpose that serves, other than try and get a 'sympathy vote'?
b) I gave very clear reasoning for why I am voting you. Your reasoning is crap, you can't even pretend to back it up, and you are not allowing me to even point in the direction of the roles my role was based off of.
a) Yeah, of course...

[SensFan]

c) I suggest you answer the question, seeing as this is the second time you have supposedly replied to the point. "Oh, I hate it when I'm right and no one believes me!" Want to explain what purpose that serves, other than try and get a 'sympathy vote'?
b) Really? I mean, isn't it obvious that the role serves to bust fakeclaims (or, consequently, if I am Scum) find Power Roles? That's the exact general purpose of Trackers/Watchers/Role Cops.
a) I just don't believe that consistently, in all your games, you cannot ever explain why you don't like a post.

[SensFan]

"As for trackers/watchers, I thought they were just a clever way to catch scum "in the act", i.e a nerfed cop" is basically exactly what I do...

c) "it doesn't matter" is not at all a valid response to "What purpose does XXX serve, if not to get sympathy?"

[SensFan]

Ummm, not at all. "My role is just like X and Y" "Really? X and Y do THIS" "Yeah, THIS is basically what I do..." OMGOBVSCUM BACKTRACK LOLOLOL!"

I don't care if you think its a scumtell, so I ignored that part. And no, "OMG NO ONE EVER BELIEVES ME AND I HATE IT" is not "cluing people in on a self-aware meta", that was the first part of your statement, which fits under a, I believe.

[SensFan]

Lol. Mind explaining what the difference is the-Oh wait, I'm sorry. I completely forgot that you never ever ever explain anything and that its so hard for you when you're Town and happen to be right, because those big baddies don't listen to you when you don't explain anything.

[SensFan]

bust fakeclaims=nerfed cops. Or, as you put it, catch people in the act of fakeclaiming. Which is what I've said my role does all along.

[SensFan]

Really? Not only would that make Trackers/Watchers much worse, but do you really fault me for misunderstanding what "catch them in the act" meant, seeing as they literally catch people fakeclaiming?

[SensFan]

Really? Not only would that make Trackers/Watchers much worse, but do you really fault me for misunderstanding what "catch them in the act" meant, seeing as they literally catch people fakeclaiming?

I have never seen a tracker/watcher catch a fakeclaim beyond scum claiming townie.

Honestly, I thought it was obvious what I meant, and I think you did a purposeful misrep.

The bolded part is EXACTLY what my role does. Like, no-doubt-about-it exactly.

[SensFan]

I really don't think Forbidden is scum considering she was second on charter's wagon. I don't think there are enough people interested to push a Forbidden wagon, so given this, Sens, is Seraphim your second choice? You have no opinion on Tamuz/Emp/wolf?

Yeah, Seraphim is my second choice, followed by you.

If I can't lynch forbiddan, I'd rather be taking steps towards figuring out the Scum in Electra/Seraphim.

[SensFan]

The bolded part is EXACTLY what my role does. Like, no-doubt-about-it exactly.

Also, could you answer Electra's question?

But as for that, it doesn't appear to do it well.

Really? I mean, it kinda tells me if someone is or is not a Townie/PR, and REALLY fucks with Scum who try to fakeclaim. More importantly, there's an eveb better way of catching Scum with it, but I'd rather not specify, in case they haven't realized it.

[SensFan]

That claim almost makes me wonder...

[SensFan]

That claim almost makes me wonder...

What are you wondering about?

Well, its almost like you realize the ScumTrap I was talking about, then claimed something to get around it. The timing of your claim doesn't ease my fears.

[SensFan]

No, I know. It's just that the trap I was talking about is that anyone who is seen submitting an action one night and not another is likely Scum.

[SensFan]

There are no extensions in this game?

No. We have 22 hours to lynch someone.

[SensFan]

I could go wolf, to make a lynch happen.

Unvote, Vote: wolf

[SensFan]

Seraphim, mind explaining why you are lynching the claimed info role over the claimed "townie that can win through other means" role?