FGO: Mafia in the Lostbelt - 2 Game Over

[Servant Lancer]

HEELLO

[Servant Lancer]

What are your thoughts on being the master?

I typed out a whole response and then realized maybe it’s not good to explicitly talk about stuff. I don’t feel the need to be given a master (is that the right terminology?), although it would certainly be nice.

yourself?

[Servant Lancer]

In that case, I’m all for being selected

[Servant Lancer]

What are your thoughts on being the master?

I guess I can answer first

I don't particularly like being town leader, and I also don't think that the extra charges for my noble phantasm will be all that beneficial for me, and would likely serve better on other players. While I am not strictly against it, I am not really gunning for it either.

Currently looking for someone to come ObvTown for me, so I can vote them lol

I did answer…?

[Servant Lancer]

Well. I guess it was like a non-answer. I feel like we’re not supposed to reveal too much about our abilities though.

[Servant Lancer]

I’m coming around to the idea that we should be aiming to hit town more than we care about the NP of whoever gets it.

[Servant Lancer]

I don't think it's that bad if we hit mafia tbh

all mafia role PMs get “upgraded to much stronger versions” and they all get *****. I would say that’s pretty strong

[Servant Lancer]

We still get interactions and information from the IC slot, and we could use the double elim on D1 to achieve almost the same thing except then they don’t get to stay as a stump to advise their team, and the scumteam don’t get the upgraded roles, and they also don’t get basically free NPs immediately

[Servant Lancer]

If a scum Master is selected, that mafia member immediately flips and exits the main game thread. The three remaining members of mafia have their role PMs upgraded to much stronger versions of their existing abilities, while the flipped member of the mafia remains in the scum PT, allowed to advise and lead the team.

You will immediately treestump, allowed to remain in the mafia PT but not the game thread. All mafia players will immediately gain ***** (You cannot exceed your NP's max charge). For the rest of the game, all mafia players will gain one additional * at daystart.

[Servant Lancer]

The best way to elect master would be to give it to person, who steals the most page tops as this person has to be active and vocal

hi

[Servant Lancer]

I feel like I’m being pretty wishy-washy. It’s probably still better if I’m not selected, although I won’t say no if we’re prioritizing trying to hit town. I feel like I’ll be pretty obvtown which is good for that, but also I’ll be obvtown regardless and don’t need the master to confirm me per se.

[Servant Lancer]

I feel like I’m being pretty wishy-washy. It’s probably still better if I’m not selected, although I won’t say no if we’re prioritizing trying to hit town. I feel like I’ll be pretty obvtown which is good for that, but also I’ll be obvtown regardless and don’t need the master to confirm me per se.

Glad I lucked into voting town correctly when the game started. Wanna be town buddies?

Why did you vote me originally?

[Servant Lancer]

It is more that it looked like they were overselling

This is fair. I feel like I have a duty to go after the master role and that might come across as overselling.

Why is that?

[Servant Lancer]

alright

townread-wise I think I like alter ego more but I’m not scumreading saber

[Servant Lancer]

Giving this another once over, Lancer is pinging me for scum.

I mostly dislike posts #85 and #100, the first being what the kids call LAMIST and the 2nd is simply that if you are town, you understand the pull that would draw one to wanting to become master. Even if me and Saber did not have strong mechanical reasons to want master, there is a pull that wants to get townread and make the most of your slot, and becoming master achieves that immediately. The "Why is that?" from Lancer basically should already be understood from a town perspective.

Or maybe I’m not egotistical and don’t believe that I have to control the game in order for town to win? And can consider possibilities for other slots feeling the same way, so a player who says they have a “duty” to go for master either thinks very highly of themselves as a player or has reason to believe their mech will outweigh all other mech abilities.

[Servant Lancer]

Even further than that, the word “duty” makes it sound like saber believes that town would be hurt by them not being selected as master, as opposed to a purely self-driven reason for wanting it. So there has to be something behind that thought process.

I kind of agree with archer’s 213 re: saber.

[Servant Lancer]

Did you read the flipped roles from the first game, caster?

Pedit-
I have agreed with most of Egos posting.

Berserker, were you going somewhere with this question?

[Servant Lancer]

plz god no

[Servant Lancer]

Foreigner, would you be interested in voting me to be master?

Why do you want to be master? I haven't seen it, and it would help me read you.

I provide both day and night benefit. I play mostly PoE, so I’d upgrade correctly and provide a central voice who is good at working with a variety of people

I agree that caster seems town. Don’t want them as master though.

I am uncertain on Caster and I disagree with their conclusions. Can you explain why they're town?

I think Caster, while misguided, genuinely believes that they found scum in me and archer. I liked their self doubt with regards to their stances, and I believe scum would not be as misinformed about how this whole setup works through virtue of having their team talk about it. I don’t think someone who is not willing to put in the work to optimize use is a smart choice to lead, and I also think they will take the obvious choice of promoting Assassin.

Did you read the flipped roles from the first game, caster?

Pedit-
I have agreed with most of Egos posting.

Berserker, were you going somewhere with this question?

Just that caster seemed very uninformed in general, if I’m remembering correctly it was after some confusion about how the master role worked.

Actually I believe caster is correct in how the mafia upgrade works, which makes me somewhat worried that they actually knew that was what the role upgrade was because I read it entirely differently initially.

[Servant Lancer]

Actually I believe caster is correct in how the mafia upgrade works, which makes me somewhat worried that they actually knew that was what the role upgrade was because I read it entirely differently initially.

?

I am just reading what Cabd has said in his post before the game began.

The sample role PM and OP say that mafia receive upgraded versions of their role PMs, and the sample upgrade is not the additional * gain. There was no indication to me that these were the same mechanic and not two different mechanics/bonuses to scum. Berserker implied they were viewing it the same way as me. So it’s a bit strange that you would read it so differently.

[Servant Lancer]

Assassin’s read on me is trash and I’m fairly sure is designed to discredit me as someone who was being fairly widely townread.

I’m probably most comfortable with berserker being selected at this point.

[Servant Lancer]

Archer
Saber
Shielder,Lancer,Rider,Ruler,Avenger,Foreigner
Caster,Beast
Berserker
Assassin
Alter Ego

VOTE: Saber

Care to elaborate on why Berserker and Alter are so low?

[Servant Lancer]

oops moon cancer did explain already. please ignore.

ummmmm I don’t want to waste this post so here’s more content I guess:

I don’t like how Beast tried to get me to be “townbuddies.” Can someone else give opinion on that?

pedit: it’s not unreasonable but more like.. weirdly accurate when I was initially wrong and it seemed like Berserker was in the same boat as me and it feels kind of weird for someone who didn’t play in the first game to have a better understanding of the mafia role pm’s and upgrade than someone who was in the first game

[Servant Lancer]

I don't see why my lack of participation in the first game would impact my ability to read what the moderator has laid out in his posts.

Also I think if the Mafia were to get ***** and */day and additional upgrades that would be quite unbalanced so just putting on my game balance hat I would think it wouldn't be that.

I’ll admit it’s a tinfoil-y theory on my part, just explaining my caution for players, eg berserker, tossing a townread your way for “mech-confusion” which was not actually confusion and therefore doesn’t merit townslip status in my opinion.

I think you're a fairly easy townread so I don't see what's wrong with Beast's read on you.

How would you have preferred I approached you lancer?

I don’t like when people are like “wanna be townbuddies” without showing that they’re town or trying to get the other person to get to a townread them, I guess.

@Caster: speaking of my being a fairly easy townread - why do you think assassin and moon cancer aren’t townreading me, then?

[Servant Lancer]

@Ruler first you say archer is towny and then that if your main-guess is correct that this is actually their scum meta? That feels contradictory

[Servant Lancer]

If I’m remembering correctly Lancer also asked to not be master.

I currently have three (four with you) in favor of me, not including myself.

Pedit-
It could be premature, yes. Do you think the post about how we reacted to his scumread came from a scum mindset?

I don’t think I read that part of the thread very thoroughly and I probably won’t get the chance to until later.

[Servant Lancer]

@Ruler you also say that your read on Saber is neither pure nor corrupt but then down below you separate them out of your nullpile into the possibly corrupt pile. What differentiates Saber’s slot from the nullpile such that you say they’re possibly corrupt, given that you said you have no read on them either way?

[Servant Lancer]

@Ruler thanks for clarifying. Can you explain why you put Beast on the same tier as me/archer/berserker? Any thoughts on their posts other than 88?

[Servant Lancer]

As far as your ego is concerned, I thought you made a bit of a show of your magnanimity in your 85. It pinged me and I still don't like it. As for Saber's post, was it not clear to you that at that point Saber thinks "very highly of themselves as a player or has reason to believe their mech will outweigh all other mech abilities?" It seemed quite explicit and clear to me. The "thought process" you wished to get at was discernable already. You are correct that I had the intention of discrediting you; I felt it prudent to air that out and thought the town reads on you came too easily and were unwarranted. Despite this I don't have a full on scumread of you. It is in development. Your latest posts haven't moved the needle.

Imo wanting to be master and feeling a

duty

to be master are entirely different magnitudes. My question was, what made saber’s play for master go to the level of duty?

The reason I bring up the specific word discrediting is that when people are trying to discredit townreads on me, they’re almost always scum. Because I am easy to read.

Why do you think all your townreads are (fypov “incorrectly”) townreading me and not seeing what you are?

[Servant Lancer]

Not sure what the vc is like but I have intent to vote berserker.

[Servant Lancer]

I'm just going to call Archer town.

VOTE: Berserker

Out of the 3 options I only like Beserker.

do you have thoughts? Don't worry we still got some pages left

Not if you keep posting like this

[Servant Lancer]

Are they? I don’t really feel like that post is saying anything definitively

[Servant Lancer]

@foreigner I’m still unclear on whether you think avenger’s claim is scummy or not

I think also berserker’s post might be more like, what specifically made you ask about resistance or lack thereof to saber? Or what prompted you to make that post?

[Servant Lancer]

Do you still feel uneasy about Ruler?

Needs more data. She's squarely outside my townreads, and a lot of her logic felt very off (townreading me for a fairly NAI post being the foremost example in my mind), but I wouldn't confidently bet on a scumflip or anything, need her to clarify her reasoning in order to get a better read.

Agreed that ruler’s posts make me a bit queasy

I don’t think I’m scumreading foreigner? But his posts are really difficult to parse because it feels like he doesn’t care to make his meaning as clear as it could be

Shielder still hasn’t showed up and should be due for a prod soon.

[Servant Lancer]

I disagree with Ruler that Alter is scum. I could be wrong though.

Can you clarify what this means?

[Servant Lancer]

I don't really think they'd get this mad if they were scum. I've been burned by this before, some players on this site weaponize emotions. But for now I feel okay with it and will just keep an eye.

Why did you bring up Ruler then?

[Servant Lancer]

I didn’t receive anything on my main either, I’m just a lunatic who refreshes MS constantly and saw cabd had unlocked the thread

[Servant Lancer]

I still have intent to vote berserker but I’m not sure if I’m ready to end the phase yet

@Beast why do you think Shielder is town?

@Ruler can you explain why you’re scumreading Saber independently of your main-guess now? Because you weren’t before

@mod can we get a prod on shielder?

[Servant Lancer]

It's rather hard for me to believe someone didn't realize the game started for almost 16 hours. I recognize that not everyone is as obsessive an addict to this website as I am, but am I really to believe Avenger was simply not paying attention at all and it took him that long to come to the game thread? We all received notice of the game starting, it's not like he wouldn't have reason to check his messages.

The excuse strains credulity.

I never received a PM on my real account which I was waiting for.
You can claim to scum read me, but let's drop the bullshit reasons as its just a wierd thing to argue.

Actually Alter claimed that we received notice of (daystart? or just role PM?)

[Servant Lancer]

@Berserker.

Let's assume you're town. Your townreads are correct.

What do you suppose the scum team is trying to do?

Why have they chosen to not contest and allow you to just waltz into Town-Leadership and take Mastery without really putting up any kind of fight whatsoever?

Have you seen anyone shading Saber? As i said before nobody does it.

Ruler is the most notable person shading saber, and Archer expressed doubts as well

[Servant Lancer]

I’ve been somewhat keeping myself deliberately low in postcount atm, as I don’t see a need to argue extensively when berserker is my best master pick and is the leading wagon, and for ~other reasons~ that I don’t want to get into yet. I have an outstanding question to ruler but am overall content to be in a support position for this phase (and the game as a whole, as well).

I just had a ludicrous thought flash across my head as to why Ruler doesn't want Saber as a master and is using vague allegations to discredit them. I'm not sure if there's a good way to explain it.

I’d be interested in hearing it

Fingers crossed.

Why are you crossing your fingers?

@Lancer: I've always wanted to say this: It's a secret~

nuuu :<

[Servant Lancer]

Preferred eliminations:
- Beast: reasons for reads have felt awkward esp. his early reasons for not townreading alter ego (back on like page 5 or whatever). early townread on me felt like a buddying attempt as opposed to a townbloc attempt in which the person reaching out would try to get their townread to also townread them
- Moon Cancer: have no idea how they got to the reads they got initially then almost completely flipped them. The detailed explanation for this is a bit convoluted and goes into the realm of main-guessing, but I also think Ruler’s defense of Moon Cancer is partner-indicative/scum-indicative for Moon Cancer.
Bonus third pick - Ruler: either scum, or possibly town hard-defending a scum slot. Either way, a distraction I think we should get rid of.

Would not eliminate:
- Alter: they were a leader of a lot of the early convos, generating good content from other slots. I think scum are going to be really afraid of this slot if he’s town and would highly prefer not to do their job for them. Worth reevaluating if he is left alive for a long time.
I don’t have a ton of townreads but I think my next pick for would-not-eliminate pile is Archer. He expressed doubts and deep thinking about saber’s bid for master that I was feeling myself, but in better words. Also 377 is a post I think often comes from scum about town they feel they can’t push. Which also puts Avenger in my scumpile. Somehow I have way more scumreads than townreads this game which is a bit ???

[Servant Lancer]

You're being clear and calculated. You're not saying who your town reads are nor are you justifying them. You're explaining your mindset to avoid being misconstrued.
I don't think every post you make is designed to help town and that wiggles me. Scum have an incentive to be town read and the earlier the better.
I'm null on you.

This is the post I was referring to

[Servant Lancer]

I see you're done trying to pretend you care about solving at all and are just hurling empty provocations.

Relax.

no one in the history of the universe has relaxed or chilled out when someone has told them to do so

pedit: um ok

[Servant Lancer]

I'm actually surprised my name hasn't been thrown out more.

As an elim preference?

I'm pretty sure I've stated only two townreads thus far, so I'll stick with those for who I'd like off the table.

The two I'd like Cabd to politely invite to the dead thread would probably be Saber and Beast.

Can you/did you explain your ruler townread?

[Servant Lancer]

Agreed.

Also Moon Cancer’s response to it was a bit off imo

Trying to find something else I wanted to respond to but I forgot what it was flyiejbahtkwakjdht

[Servant Lancer]

halp

someone said something about someone else’s ISO being one that was really easy for scum to push as LHF. can someone help me find this thing? it definitely happened right?

[Servant Lancer]

Oh right I meant to reread the conversation about saber having scumreads on you/(archer? rider?) as partners. Let me go reread.

[Servant Lancer]

Read some ISOs because I'm bored and restless. A bit leery of the scumreads being expressed on Rider. That feels like a slot scum would see as low hanging fruit.

Thank you yes!!!!

At first glance of rider’s ISO I was like “actually this is a scummy ISO” so I surface-level disagreed with alter’s take, and that also made me a bit suspicious that alter was trying to protect his scumbuddy-rider and it felt kinda.. unprompted

But then I searched “rider” in the thread to see what scumreads alter was referring to/who was scumreading rider that made him express this. And the mentions of rider in the thread were (going in reverse chronological order because that’s how the search results show up):

1) Ruler put rider in her preferred-elim pile as a “throwaway,” claiming that the only elim she actually wants is foreigner’s and rider is just there to fill the spot. In 273 she puts rider in her scumpile but the only comment she has made about him is that his post saying not to waste pages is scummy but I feel like that is super surface-level and shouldn’t merit a strong enough read to be put in the scumpile with her strong scumread like she did
2) Beast put rider in his preferred-elim pile along with two other slots, explained the reasons for those two slots, but not for rider. He never mentions rider in his ISO other than this. Kind of crazy that beast has said nothing about his #1 preferred elim other than this post saying that he wants to elim rider (starts at 563 for context)
3) Berserker puts Rider at null in readslist
4) Saber waffling on Rider in the weird readslist in 472
5) Caster said he wants Rider to play more seriously
6) Moon Cancer put Rider at approx null in 462
7) Archer said “not a big fan of Rider’s ISO” way back in 153

So I mean, I think I see where alter is coming from. Ruler and Beast’s scumreads on Rider especially seem to have very little to no justification and they’ve barely/never mentioned him in their ISOs yet still put him in their preferred-elim pile. Saber’s read on Rider is also a bit weird but not sure if AI atm. Other than that I’m kinda whatever about these scumreads/don’t think Rider is being seriously scumread by anyone outside of these three slots potentially.

As for me - I don’t necessarily disagree that his early ISO is lacking in content but I think most recently him being surprised at not being put in preferred-elim piles is gut-towny-feeling to me.

[Servant Lancer]

@berserker sorry I got distracted because archer found the post for me that I wanted to talk about but I will go reread saber stuff now

[Servant Lancer]

Ok I mean I think that is like generally Fine but POEing on a low-content slot tends to feel like scum couldn’t find good traction or figure out how to naturally scumread elsewhere and I also think I remember that it usually flips town

[Servant Lancer]

Alright, I’ll bite. What is it about this town/game/slot that made you think Rider could be POE-scum and not LHF?

[Servant Lancer]

It's really unfortunate for me that the people I trust I don't like and the people I like I don't trust.

Does that mean you don’t like me :<

[Servant Lancer]

@caster fr tho sorry if you felt like I’ve been ignoring you, I’m planning to do a reread of all the stuff I skimmed later today and we can talk about stuff if you want?

[Servant Lancer]

oh hi

sorry, I intended to reread stuff and then I started feeling really unwell

caster kind of ignored my reach out though

idk I'm probably fine to just move on as well. are we at 7 votes now?

[Servant Lancer]

it was more just like you said you felt like you got ignored so I offered to reread stuff and talk about your posts with you if you wanted

if you think it will help with, like, anything I can still try to do that or respond to your case instead

[Servant Lancer]

every time I hit submit I have a moment of panic that I accidentally main-slipped

[Servant Lancer]

If you don't think it'll help much for me to read your posts thoroughly and respond then I'll just vote so we can move on to d1

[Servant Lancer]

wait no.... berserker is scum?

[Servant Lancer]

thank god omg

I agree, Lancer's felt kind of meh. Not enough to wagon there but enough for a firm scolding and a demand they bring me scum.

what am I being scolded for

[Servant Lancer]

what do you mean by “better”? there’s a specific way I’m supposed to react to you posting a video that implies you’re scum?

[Servant Lancer]

Assassin’s reaction to me seemed +town I think?

otherwise I probably agree with you on saber/alter

[Servant Lancer]

what she said

pedit: yeah also that

[Servant Lancer]

off the top of my head I think it’s something like:

our lord and savior: Berserker
probtown: Alter/Archer/Caster
maybe town: Shielder/Rider
null-ish: Foreigner/Assassin
would eliminate: Saber/Avenger/Ruler/Beast/Moon Cancer

[Servant Lancer]

I forgot about the claim beast made. shielder should basically never be eliminated unless beast flips scum first, right?

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: Alter Ego
The amount of townreads on this is worrying.

I’m gonna be captain obvious and point out that alter just voted you so this feels a lot like OMGUS

I find it very difficult to believe that a scumread purely predicated on the basis of someone else being townread too much is genuine. (Caster made the same argument about Berserker and his master selection facing no opposition and look how that turned out.) What about alter’s

content

do you scumread?

[Servant Lancer]

@assassin it feels weird to me that I’m still in your scumpile but you say things to me like this which imply that you are treating me as town:

Hey sorry, I know it'll feel like shit seeing the red if it comes to pass. But at the same time, for me, things really didn't feel right, and at least this offers an explanation and its a good wake up call.

and this:

As for me - I don’t necessarily disagree that his early ISO is lacking in content but I think most recently him being surprised at not being put in preferred-elim piles is gut-towny-feeling to me.

I agree with this. I'd add that his entire ISO feels slightly over the null line into town territory.

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: Alter Ego
The amount of townreads on this is worrying.

I’m gonna be captain obvious and point out that alter just voted you so this feels a lot like OMGUS

I find it very difficult to believe that a scumread purely predicated on the basis of someone else being townread too much is genuine. (Caster made the same argument about Berserker and his master selection facing no opposition and look how that turned out.) What about alter’s

content

do you scumread?

Alter Ego has been in the bottom of my reads for a very long time. Check my ISO for reason(s).

this is literally the only thing you've said about them:

That is certainly an arrangement of names. Pray tell, why does Rider's 2 posts put them in your 3rd tier?

3rd tier=Null

I see. So you have 5 scumreads and 2 townreads so far, is that correct? That's a very

surprising

distribution. Why am I so scummy to you? Why are Assassin and Berserker scum, too?

Alter Ego thinks too much and their reads have too much

uncertainity

.

either that's a bad reason to scumread someone (in conjunction with "they are too townread") or you need to explain this read way more.

[Servant Lancer]

@Alter how do you feel about Rider?

[Servant Lancer]

I agree with what Shielder said about Ruler. Also, like, isn’t this post from Ruler explicitly violating the warning that Cabd just made about guessing identities?

Spoiler: quote spoilered because long

I do apologize for a reduced presence. I am suffering from some ailment of the mind and require rest to recover.

I can still contribute with this;
VOTE: Servant Foreigner
As previously stated, they are the most corrupt slot in the game with the highest chance of removing corruption from the elimination.

my theory had been that Ruler was seeking to discredit Saber out of fear.

Discrediting would be rather difficult for me to do, given that the act of discrediting is inherently an act of corruption.

Yeah, her simultaneously being aware and unaware of what's going on in recent times seems too convenient for me. Good catch.

While I am aware of this scumtell and am a user of it myself to hunt the corrupt, it is subject to meta of the individual as there are players who display that behavior even when pure of heart. Though I am not certain, my first guess for

Servant Shielder

's identity was that they were among the players to display this behavior regardless of alignment.

Read some ISOs because I'm bored and restless. A bit leery of the scumreads being expressed on Rider. That feels like a slot scum would see as low hanging fruit.

A slot appearing as 'low hanging fruit' does not mean the slot cannot be corrupt. I realize my read on

Servant Rider

is comparatively weak and largely based on process of elimination from the slots I believe are pure of heart, but I do in fact not see goodness within them.

My reads have settled down, except on Beast and Shielder. I am not sure what to make of this claim Day 1.

In a 14-player game with 4 scum, even with the benefits of a conftown D1, double-elimination D1, and the conftown being immune to death prior to N2, I would expect the gathered servants of justice to need considerably more strength than normal. This game is almost a mini but with 4 scum instead of 3.

As such, I buy the claim of the individuals involved being pure of heart. We need every advantage possible to offset the extra corrupt individual. After all, just because we have two possible eliminations on D1 does not mean we hit corrupt individuals. What good does the double-elimination D1 do us if we hit good individuals twice with it? Assuming the corruption's kill goes through, that leaves us on D2 with a 7v4 situation, and potentially 5v4 on D3. Given the delay in activating our noble phantasms, in the worst case scenario, the gathered servants of justice need advantages beyond our ultimate power and the master mechanic.

I’ve been coming around to the thought that Saber might be scum but would appreciate a case from those scumreading them.

My plan is to do this after a

Servant Foreigner

elimination. My first effort is on eliminating the guaranteed corrupt before focusing on the probably corrupt. I do not wish to divide our attention between two different individuals and end up with us eliminating neither.

What is it about this town/game/slot that made you think Rider could be POE-scum and not LHF?

1: What makes you think the ideas of 'poe-scum' and 'player who is LHF' are mutually exclusive? Nothing about those two terms means they cannot overlap; players who are traditionally low-hanging fruit can still end up corrupt.

2: The presence of a rather large number of players who have fairly strong reasons to be pure of heart. If the majority of the gathered servants of justice have good reason to be pure of heart, the chances of those outside the group being corrupt are disproportionately higher.

1) Ruler put rider in her preferred-elim pile as a “throwaway,” claiming that the only elim she actually wants is foreigner’s and rider is just there to fill the spot.

That is correct.

I am aware there are four corrupt slots and I am only truly seeing signs of corruption from three. (

Servants Foreigner, Saber, and Rider

.) Of them, I wished to give some time to further reflect on

Servant Saber

at the time, thus the stated second preference on

Servant Rider

, who I admit is not so much a read I see as corrupt (there are possible signs but they are all weak) so much as a read where I simply do not see anything from them indicating them to be pure of heart.

I am aware this means I am writing off too many players as good. (I shall elaborate on this shortly.)

However, for D1, having too many townreads is better than the inverse, especially with a double-elimination, as I do not think it an issue as long as I have at least two names to eliminate today. Eliminate the players outside the initially-too-wide pure-of-heart player pool today, then reevaluate on D2 to see which of the players I initially placed there to see who does not belong.

I believe it is time for me to give a better separation of my reads:

Above Reproach/Absolutely Pure of Heart

:

Servant Beast*

,

Servant Shielder*

,

Servant Berserker*

Servant Archer:

I am absolutely sure that this is

Servant Archer

as pure of heart. As one of the only servants whose identities I feel fairly confident on, he is one of the few I can back my already-existing pure of heart read on with meta.

Servant Archer

's posts are strongly good, but there are players who can appear that way while corrupt; knowing

Servant Archer

's identity leads me to believe this is beyond the range of their abilities as a corrupt individual and thus, they are my strongest pure of heart read.

*Role-based

Above Reproach

For a Few Phases

/Very Highly Likely Pure of Heart

:

Servants Caster, Lancer:

My feelings on both of these slots is similar. Both are as strongly showing their pure of heartness as

Servant Archer

and the only thing keeping them from joining his ranks is that I know not their identities and it is possible the reasons I am reading them as good are things they are capable of when corrupt. Lacking knowing their identities, they are the strongest possible pure-of-heart read I can have.

Above Reproach

Today

/Highly Likely Pure of Heart

:

Servant Alter Ego:

I almost placed

Servant Alter Ego

in the same tier as

Servants Caster and Lancer

, however, intuition gave me some reserves about them in comparison. Whereas I feel

Servants Caster and Lancer

cannot realistically be corrupt, I could not say the same in my own heart about

Servant Alter Ego

, but I feel bad about this, as

Servant Alter Ego

has been strongly pure of heart in their posting.

Would Prefer not to Eliminate

Today

/Likely Pure of Heart

:

Servant Assassin:

I feel their posting has been reasonably pure of heart, indicating they are more likely good than not, but it is not nearly to the extent of my other reads. They have a few things going for them, but are not the clearly town levels of the above. Their claim could be a gamemaster-provided safeclaim, but I am also inclined to believe the claim.

Servant Moon Cancer:

Though my heart of heart tells me deep in my intuition that they are very strongly pure of heart, I realize I have not much to objectify my read here beyond disagreeing with the strong distaste of the slot. I do not think

Servant Moon Cancer

's contributions indicate they are corrupt, but I have little to substantiate this claim.

???/I Cannot Track

:

Servant Avenger:

Their claim is neither good nor evil to me as I can see either alignment making it. Their contributions have been decent, and I admit that they share many of my takes so unless they are bussing they are less likely to be partnered with those I have fingered as corrupt, but in spite of this, I cannot find myself actually locking them down as pure of heart; I am struggling to read them as anything.

Secondary Elimination Candidates/Decent Chance of Corruption

:

Servants Saber, Rider:

See above sections.

Preferred Primary Elimination/Corrupt to the Core

:

Servant Foreigner:

I will need to explain this read further I imagine, and shall do so when able to.

[Servant Lancer]

Do you think beast and saber could be scum together?

[Servant Lancer]

yeah, and just to weigh in on the claim reveal issue - I do feel like.. you weren’t at risk of elimination, why reveal until absolutely necessary (ie to save you from elimination)?

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: moon cancer

still a scum slot

[Servant Lancer]

Also pending certain things, i think sabers claim is believable enough

believable /= town

I am pretty sure this is the point berserker is trying to get at. Is saber's NP their true NP? (it doesn't really matter but) if town, probably. if scum, he is probably claiming the true NP or something close to it so as not to mess up any details. Even if the claim is true though, that does not mean that saber is town by default. Are you townreading him?

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: saber leggo

[Servant Lancer]

I could be okay with a Saber elim.

My scum read on Foreigner is stronger, but in regards to saber, it could help us look at who was/wasn't supporting him Day 0 based on the flip.

I am not sure how many votes that is -- will double check count before voting

I thought your case on Saber was more convincing, personally.

Possibly. I think the my read on Foreigner feels stronger to me, just because almost every post that comes from them makes it stronger, where are Saber has their moments

The points you have against saber highlight specifically a mentality where they often contradicted themselves in trying to explain why they wanted their master vote and why their NP would be useful. It's based on posts they've made that don't add up. With regard to foreigner it seems to be mostly related to them trolling/not caring. Slots like that can flip scum, but they don't always. I've never felt most of the cases there to be fully formed beyond "plays weird, trolls too much". (Also, I straight up disagree with your assessment of 801 - I wouldn't expect scum to openly antagonize the clear right away)

I’m with alter here - the discrepancy/inconsistency in thought process is more concerning than someone dicking around

[Servant Lancer]

There is probably something significant about foreigner and saber both voting moon cancer and then both becoming the counterwagons to moon cancer but I don’t yet know what that means

[Servant Lancer]

Addressing this, "why didn't beast play "their shielder knowledge some otherway. " approach.

Shielder did give information on interest for master, they said they "weren't against" it. Given their activity and Berserker's position and my own, I found it pretty unlikely that I could push through a shield er position, I also feel I waited enough, Just because Shielder was largely absent doesn't mean I was planning to just lurk until they showed up. I had opinions and I pushed my opinions. I could very well have been wrong on Saber, but I don't know that. I was also content just letting shielder be under the radar. For mechanical reasons and also because it allowed me to see who pushed the lurker slot. I had no way of knowing that Shielder could look town or not because they hadn't posed yet. I was keeping track of the finger pointing in their direction however. I think only two players did, Alter and one other player. Ultimately they didn't do anything with it, so I didn't know what to make of it either.

But sure I could have played it more optimally I guess by...getting them elected? somehow. In retrospect I'm not even sure that would be a good idea because I already know they're town and the grail wouldn't help sort them in retrospect. I already explained why I just outed them as town, I was crumbing and I didn't want to hurt alter's feelings anymore if they were being legit so I just explained it. It wasn't a very optimal move from a win condition perspective, but I'm not really made of stone either. And no I don't blame Alter for me revealing that, it was just a poorly thought out way to crumb.

I don’t think this addresses the primary concerns that others and I had, which was why choose that particular moment to reveal? Shielder wasn’t getting that much attention, and they weren’t even at risk of being eliminated because of the nature of the phase. Wouldn’t you be trying to play your cards close so as not to reveal too much too early? You were even strongly advocating to reveal as little as possible in the beginning.

[Servant Lancer]

I mean okay but I keep going back and rereading the moment and don’t understand why you felt any pressure or reason to do so

[Servant Lancer]

if you didn’t want to hurt alter’s feelings anymore you could have just stopped being a butt?

[Servant Lancer]

Why out over just ceasing with the provoking comments?

[Servant Lancer]

I’m really struggling to understand your pov on this

[Servant Lancer]

?

[Servant Lancer]

So you’ve gone from an early/strong townread on me to somehow reading possible scum motivation behind me trying to understand something that doesn’t make sense and you even admitted to not being optimal

ok

[Servant Lancer]

Why out over just ceasing with the provoking comments?

Because that would have added another point to the pointless antagonism score card.

Stopping with the antagonism doesn’t sound to me like it would have added anything to the antagonism score card. Because that’s the whole point of stopping the antagonism.

[Servant Lancer]

So you’ve gone from an early/strong townread on me to somehow reading possible scum motivation behind me trying to understand something that doesn’t make sense and you even admitted to not being optimal

ok

Yes, somehow my reads have developed over time and some players have risen into town reads, others have fallen.

Or maybe you realized buddying me wasn’t working and it wasn’t getting you towncred with anyone else either

[Servant Lancer]

Why out over just ceasing with the provoking comments?

Because that would have added another point to the pointless antagonism score card.

Stopping with the antagonism doesn’t sound to me like it would have added anything to the antagonism score card. Because that’s the whole point of stopping the antagonism.

I was attempting to remove a point from the score card. This is a misinterpretation.

Explain how I’m misinterpreting what you said.

I asked, why would you choose to out instead of deciding not to antagonize alter anymore?
You said “that” (which is surely not referring to outing unless you’re saying you deliberately outed in order to antagonize alter further, so must refer to “not antagonizing alter”) would increase antagonism. ??

[Servant Lancer]

The part of your thought process that I’m trying to understand is, given the option of simply not antagonizing alter which is always available and costs nothing and reveals no information and solves the situation just fine on its own, why would you instead choose to out Shielder, after repeatedly telling everyone not to give unnecessary information?

And none of your responses have given me an understanding of this choice

[Servant Lancer]

What is this “existing wounds”?

[Servant Lancer]

Why out over just ceasing with the provoking comments?

Because that would have added another point to the pointless antagonism score card.

Stopping with the antagonism doesn’t sound to me like it would have added anything to the antagonism score card. Because that’s the whole point of stopping the antagonism.

I was attempting to remove a point from the score card. This is a misinterpretation.

Explain how I’m misinterpreting what you said.

I asked, why would you choose to out instead of deciding not to antagonize alter anymore?
You said “that” (which is surely not referring to outing unless you’re saying you deliberately outed in order to antagonize alter further, so must refer to “not antagonizing alter”) would increase antagonism. ??

Have I started antagonizing them more after that point?
I'm stating I wanted to remove some of the points of antagonism. I can both stop antagonizing someone and start treating existing wounds. They're not mutually exclusive.

This is not what you said, so I’m unclear as to how I was misinterpreting your words.

[Servant Lancer]

Yes I don’t comprehend it, that’s the whole point of me asking you about it.

[Servant Lancer]

I don’t really care how you read me, I think it’s not very believable but that’s not really relevant. I’m more concerned with actually getting an answer from you that I can vibe with but you kind of seem intent on not giving me that and accusing me of misinterpreting you when I don’t know what other possible interpretation there was to what you said.

[Servant Lancer]

Why out over just ceasing with the provoking comments?

Because that would have added another point to the pointless antagonism score card.

The only possible interpretation I see of this is you chose to out Shielder rather than stop provoking Alter because you thought not provoking alter would have added more antagonism. which, obviously, doesn’t make sense to me as a reason to make the choice you did. now you’re saying I’m misinterpreting that. I don’t know how else I’m supposed to read this sentence.

[Servant Lancer]

I'm saying that town contradict themselves all the time, that just because I say, hey guys don't give out information unnecessarily means I'm incapable of doing so.
I'm not made of stone and I'm not perfectly rational. As scum I tend to be more rational if anything.

What about the rest of my question?

[Servant Lancer]

The part of your thought process that I’m trying to understand is,

given the option of simply not antagonizing alter which is always available and costs nothing and reveals no information and solves the situation just fine on its own, why would you instead choose to out Shielder,

after repeatedly telling everyone not to give unnecessary information?

And none of your responses have given me an understanding of this choice

You certainly answered the very last part of the question but seem to have ignored the primary question that I was asking.


I’m getting pretty frustrated rn and I told myself I would walk away if I felt my head getting hot, which it is.

I feel like the options are that you’re either not engaging me in good faith or you say things you don’t actually mean and then accused me of misreading it. Neither of which makes sense.

[Servant Lancer]

Why out over just ceasing with the provoking comments?

Because that would have added another point to the pointless antagonism score card.

The only possible interpretation I see of this is you chose to out Shielder rather than stop provoking Alter because you thought not provoking alter would have added more antagonism. which, obviously, doesn’t make sense to me as a reason to make the choice you did. now you’re saying I’m misinterpreting that. I don’t know how else I’m supposed to read this sentence.

[Servant Lancer]

I’m done. gonna go cool my head off before I start getting emotional.

[Servant Lancer]

The last, and only, specific reason to scumread Alter came from post 238. I don't find it convincing. How has that read matured over time and what specific posts can you point to as to support your conclusions?

That read has not changed. It is fully based on the early posts on Alter Ego having more evasive words in their posts than any normal townie. And no post of Alter Ego after that time has caused me to reconsider.

I think we have gotten everything we could have before the first elimination. We should move on.

What exactly have you "gotten" from this phase? you don't appear to have tried to engage, like, anyone.

[Servant Lancer]

@assassin it feels weird to me that I’m still in your scumpile but you say things to me like this which imply that you are treating me as town:

Hey sorry, I know it'll feel like shit seeing the red if it comes to pass. But at the same time, for me, things really didn't feel right, and at least this offers an explanation and its a good wake up call.

and this:

As for me - I don’t necessarily disagree that his early ISO is lacking in content but I think most recently him being surprised at not being put in preferred-elim piles is gut-towny-feeling to me.

I agree with this. I'd add that his entire ISO feels slightly over the null line into town territory.

[Servant Lancer]

I'm back here: VOTE: moon cancer

I think foreigner is town.

I think foreigner and saber both voting moon cancer and then both becoming counterwagons to moon cancer is probably town-indicative for them and scum-indicative for moon cancer, on average. (although saber could still be scum, I think moon cancer is most likely of the 3 to be scum regardless of saber's alignment). I thought saber's NP stuff was a bit oblivious and have no idea whether that's intentional or not, but on second thought I don't think I think it's inherently scummy.

[Servant Lancer]

updated-ish reads

our lord and savior: Berserker
probtown: Alter/Archer/Caster/Shielder/Rider/Ruler/Foreigner
null-ish: Assassin/Saber/Beast
probscum: Avenger/Moon Cancer

[Servant Lancer]

Pretty much everyone has Avenger in their nullscum tiers (except for like, Saber, which I feel like could be partner-indicative for Avenger & Saber) and yet no one has voted him. So I'm fine voting there too.

Saber also had some fencesitting hesitation over voting moon cancer so I could easily see that be a bussing vote.

[Servant Lancer]

that should probably drop Saber down at least a half-tier, I think.

[Servant Lancer]

I'm not interested in moving off Saber when they haven't really responded to the votes on them or being wagoned at all. Also, the narrative of them being a "counterwagon" to Moon Cancer doesn't really track - 3 of the voters on Saber were common ith the ones on Moon Cancer - Me, Lancer, and Rider.

It is, however, notably ironic that I'm apparently Moon Cancer's biggest scumread but they have no probably sheeping me on both Berserker and Saber.

ah, I didn’t look at wagon comp at all.

I’m fine with yeeting any of my bottom 4 reads, I don’t have that strong of a preference for moon caster. I just feel like that slot has done nothing town at all and deserves more pressure at least.

[Servant Lancer]

notscience noooooo </3

[Servant Lancer]

Avenger, no one else has claimed the same NP as you and saber. why are you not voting for saber? why would you gladiate foreigner and not saber?

[Servant Lancer]

Berserker also explicitly said, either moon cancer or saber. foreigner gladiate is badbadbadbadbad

[Servant Lancer]

er, not sure if that is @me or just confirming that it must have been Avenger (unless someone who is not in the gladiate pool did the gladiate but I feel like that would be pretty fucked up / almost DEFINITELY a scum ability)

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: avenger

[Servant Lancer]

Moon is blatant fucking scum and the fact you're intervening to save them says it all.

^^^^^^^^^^

[Servant Lancer]

Foreigner is town. Berserker had them as town. Berserker had just announced that moon cancer was going to be his chosen first elim.

This gladiate is either the most anti-town shit you could have pulled, or just scum.

[Servant Lancer]

@Avenger I would also love to hear your progression on moon cancer and why you don't think they're scum

[Servant Lancer]

Avenger, no one else has claimed the same NP as you and saber. why are you not voting for saber? why would you gladiate foreigner and not saber?

Answer this too please.

[Servant Lancer]

Avenger - You previously stated that if only you and saber had the same NP, that you would assume it would be one town and one scum, so saber should be near-confirmed scum to town!you now since no one else has claimed anything similar. Why would you ever gladiate someone else?

[Servant Lancer]

Foreigner is town. Berserker had them as town. Berserker had just announced that moon cancer was going to be his chosen first elim.

This gladiate is either the most anti-town shit you could have pulled, or just scum.

I want to point out here that Berzerker is mentioned when giving the read on foreigner because they are confirmed town, correct?
Meaning that that view is genuine and there for should be listened to.

So if I am to flip town, where does this leave the read in your view? Given that my thoughts are equally as geniuen.

I mentioned Berserker because you took an action that explicitly undermined his views as town leader for what seems like a bad reason compared to the opportunity you had to gladiate saber who should be near-confirmed scum to you. I also trust his reads, but the main point here is that this action is inherently anti-town for opposing the town leader and forcing the elim like this.

I am still pretty sure Foreigner is town. I don't really think your alignment impacts my read. My scumread on you is entirely independent of your target.

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: Avenger

Hijacking the thread when there's a uniform townblock is just a scumclaim. Scum want to take over against a unified town block unless they express doubt first.

I would want specific proof of him trying to save Moon Cancer before I determined that was the motive or not. I wouldn't need much given the optimal strategies I have laid out.

If there's some reward for doing the gladiate, it makes sense to target MC.

If there's a loyal/disloyal aspect, it also makes sense to target MC.

I mean, this happened right before the gladiate:

I’ve been thinking on that claim and I think I believe it.

I’m going to ruminate on it some. But moon should claim and then die.

[Servant Lancer]

Avenger, no one else has claimed the same NP as you and saber. why are you not voting for saber? why would you gladiate foreigner and not saber?

Answer this too please.

I did answer.
I explained why I did this and why I'm not voting Sabre.

This is your explanation?

I'm assuming the gladiate was the doing of Avenger. Would like him to confirm.

I confirm it was me.

VOTE: foreigner
This is flipping scum.

The reason I gladiator here is because I do that read Moon as scum.
Sabre may be lying but given the roles, they too have 1 role that benefits scum and town, and 1 anti scum (I'll find it hard to believe that scum can power up their own NP).

foreigner has been sitting in the back, asking why I'm not at E1 while still not voting me there? Just shading instead of actually reading and actually happy where the votes are going.

There's scum within me and foreigner 100% of the time here.
As I said, I also have an anti scum role which can be proven when I like. I won't be sharing it today though unless it becomes beneficial.

This has like, nothing to do with saber's play. Can you explain why the claim is strong enough to change your earlier view about there being 1 scum and 1 town in an NP pairing?

[Servant Lancer]

At literally any time prior to this avenger could have stepped in and said a word about moon cancer in their defense, and did not, and instead he stepped in with this gladiate

yep

[Servant Lancer]

100% scum based on...?

On that I'm right here.
I'm genieunly good with this, even more so when people use bullshit reasons to try and force a push.

And I can say that because if I flip scum it means fuck all.
If I flip town, then what I'm saying has merit.

So your "there is 100% scum between the two of us" is basically, you are really really sure of your read?

Jesus Christ.

You are so sure of your read that you decided to halt the plans for the entirety of the town.

I agree, even if you are town, this is the most anti-town play you could have made

This bullshit is why my NP is one of the most powerful in the game. If Avenger didn't have a gladiate, he'd spam out and demotivate the game. That has to be prevented.

uuhhhh disagree

[Servant Lancer]

I mentioned Berserker because you took an action that explicitly undermined his views as town leader for what seems like a bad reason compared to the opportunity you had to gladiate saber who should be near-confirmed scum to you. I also trust his reads, but the main point here is that this action is inherently anti-town for opposing the town leader and forcing the elim like this.

I am still pretty sure Foreigner is town. I don't really think your alignment impacts my read. My scumread on you is entirely independent of your target.

Unlike the players trying to pretend here I'm not only going to follow someone from the title 'leader' even when I think they are wrong.
And of course you won't have an impacted read on a red flip foreigner...

But even if I'm flipped, foreigner and anyone who is hard defending there should all be checked and limmed.

You don't have to follow every single word Berserker says, but the way to win is to work

TOGETHER

because this is a fucking team game.

if you flip town I'll be salty about your play for sure.

[Servant Lancer]

vote avenger please

[Servant Lancer]

This has like, nothing to do with saber's play. Can you explain why the claim is strong enough to change your earlier view about there being 1 scum and 1 town in an NP pairing?

Because Saber has an anti scum power.

Which of those abilities is anti-scum?

[Servant Lancer]

I had foreigner as scum in my scum list, but this play makes me want to vote for Avenger

And, it makes me want to eliminate Moon with the second elim of the day.

Avenger, I am not sure what you were thinking here.

I'm getting scum caught.

The way to do this is to

talk

about it, not force your will on the game thread. If you're town, you've not only made an inherently anti-town action but also actively prevented cohesion AND made yourself an easy target to miselim by doing it this way

[Servant Lancer]

Unlike the players trying to pretend here I'm not only going to follow someone from the title 'leader' even when I think they are wrong.

Also, for the record I can stop this gladiator attempt at any point I want.
I will not be doing that though.

"Yeah, I am not gonna follow a town leader who everyone knows is town, instead I am going to declare that everyone should follow me"

omg. I thought foreigner was scummy, but if anything, this makes me want to never elim Foriegner just out of spite.

honestly yeah

[Servant Lancer]

"Yeah, I am not gonna follow a town leader who everyone knows is town, instead I am going to declare that everyone should follow me"

omg. I thought foreigner was scummy, but if anything, this makes me want to never elim Foriegner just out of spite.

Well, that's your choice.
I think you may have mis understood what I was saying though.

no this is like literally what you said

[Servant Lancer]

No.

Not for me at least.

This play proves that you don't have the greatest judgement

Okay, say I flip town, Moon flips town and foreigner flips scum.
Is my judgement still bad?

yes, because you did it like this. instead of working together.

[Servant Lancer]

Now when you say moon cancer's posts are not scummy, can you explain specifically why you don't think moon cancer's read on alter is scummy?

[Servant Lancer]

Yeah cause we didn't know it was going to be a fucking gladiate???????

[Servant Lancer]

honestly I'm super steamed

there's a small chance that avenger is town because assassin said something that made sense about saving moon cancer being a really bad look

however, since avenger refuses to remove the gladiate, and I'm townreading foreigner, my vote stays on avenger.

[Servant Lancer]

Yeah cause we didn't know it was going to be a fucking gladiate???????

What day powers would I do that would need to be used if votes shy away?

your post was super vague and confusing, and I read that as you were going to use your NP on foreigner to get them to stop talking to which I was like, weird but ok

[Servant Lancer]

Now when you say moon cancer's posts are not scummy, can you explain specifically why you don't think moon cancer's read on alter is scummy?

Because there's nothing for me to really go by on it.
I just don't read Moon as scummy though.

I want you to comment on moon's read on alter. And why you don't think it's scummy.

[Servant Lancer]

Me removing the gladiator shouldn't change the vote from me and foreigner.
Either I'm scum trying to survive or I'm right by doing so. So why would I remove the gladiator as either alignment there?

ok so my vote stays

[Servant Lancer]

like I said, I was super confused but I didn't really care about your claim enough to figure out what you were actually saying. because my plan, and berserker's plan, and literally the whole townbloc's plan, was to solve in moon cancer/saber.

[Servant Lancer]

Now when you say moon cancer's posts are not scummy, can you explain specifically why you don't think moon cancer's read on alter is scummy?

Because there's nothing for me to really go by on it.
I just don't read Moon as scummy though.

I want you to comment on moon's read on alter. And why you don't think it's scummy.

I don't understand the read. Why would that make it scummy?
Be it, Moon is probably right with the read.

Moon cancer voted alter because he was getting "too townread" and then when asked for more reasons, referred everyone to their ISO, which only contained "Alter thinks too much and their reads have too much uncertainty" which is very much not how I would characterize Alter's posts. Explain why you think this is not scum-indicative.

[Servant Lancer]

@new berserker, let me know if you want me/us to catch you up on anything.

[Servant Lancer]

Now when you say moon cancer's posts are not scummy, can you explain specifically why you don't think moon cancer's read on alter is scummy?

Because there's nothing for me to really go by on it.
I just don't read Moon as scummy though.

I want you to comment on moon's read on alter. And why you don't think it's scummy.

I don't understand the read. Why would that make it scummy?
Be it, Moon is probably right with the read.

Moon cancer voted alter because he was getting "too townread" and then when asked for more reasons, referred everyone to their ISO, which only contained "Alter thinks too much and their reads have too much uncertainty" which is very much not how I would characterize Alter's posts. Explain why you think this is not scum-indicative.

Well it starts saying that Ego has too much uncertainty. That's different to just town read.
I'm not sure why I'd directly find this scummy rather than Null?

Just because someone has a reason which isn't great doesn't mean it's scummy. Otherwise foreigner's original scum read on me should be one the favoured. But yet, we're here.

so why is foreigner scummy but moon cancer isn't?

[Servant Lancer]

I mean, you've gladiated foreigner and diverted an elim away from moon cancer so it stands to reason that you think moon cancer isn't scummy. You also literally said you're not scumreading moon cancer. So I'm asking you what the difference is between the two that leads to scumreading foreigner but not moon cancer. how is that a loaded question?

why is moon cancer elimbait but foreigner isn't?


do you think moon cancer's wagon was scum-driven or that there were 2 or more scum on it?

scum bus each other all the time. are you saying you'd never willingly vote with the bus on scum?

[Servant Lancer]

@new berserker, let me know if you want me/us to catch you up on anything.

[Servant Lancer]

I believe gladiator's can cancel their ability, I'm not sure if every gladiator can do that or if this was a unique mechanic where the name was revealed as a consequence in exchange for the ability to cancel.

Avenger can still be a scum miller, but his flavor is very spot on so I'm not sure they lied about anything.

I've never heard of gladiators being able to cancel their gladiates after the fact, but to be fair I haven't come across many

I would also expect cabd to have given decent fakeclaims for scum, so in general I think "did they lie about their abilities" is a really poor indicator of alignment.

[Servant Lancer]

Excuse me for my language but my lord and savior wouldnt approve of my rage.

At least one between lancer/alter is scum for their hard push against avenger.

Thats a horrible trade off but I dont see two scum going to bat for their buddy in this manner

Or avenger either horribly misplayed or is scum but do go on, would love to hear more about this

[Servant Lancer]

pedit: oh i was about to vote moon

[Servant Lancer]

ah whatever VOTE: moon cancer

that's E-1, back to where we were 12 hours ago

[Servant Lancer]

moon should claim and then die.

[Servant Lancer]

If there's some reward for doing the gladiate, it makes sense to target MC.

If there's a loyal/disloyal aspect, it also makes sense to target MC.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

[Servant Lancer]

Apparently my true identity (character name) will be told to everyone as well.

Avenger said this right after the gladiate, so I am assuming that the name reveal happens regardless of whether the gladiate is retracted. I don't think it really matters though.

VOTE: Avenger

I think this is what Notsci would've wanted from the post he slipped on

this feels super awkward and like caster is ignoring everything that happened after the gladiate because they don't know how to react

Couple things,

Before any of this happened I probably would have voted Saber. However I've reread foreigner, avenger, and moon caster and I now think it's prudent to eliminate Moon Caster. Rereading the early game, I dislike their early read on Alter more than I previously did. The lack of update or more detailed explanation when pressed should not come from a player who was frustrated that the rest of town were in fact townreading Alter. I still find the shift in the rest of their reads plausible. Foreigner's iso was less bad than I thought it was, but I still don't like the approach to caster. The interaction between Foreigner and Moon Cancer does not appear to be a bus to me. I still lean town on avenger.

VOTE: Moon Cancer

this too I think

[Servant Lancer]

assassin's post about saber's wagon felt like.. all bark but no bite.

On Saber:

I'm not sure how to preface this. Saber is a type of player I have trouble reading. They give off an aura of deep inexperience, are prone to faulty logic, heavy speculation, and paranoia. Is there a cutoff from which such behavior goes from possible of a town player to only being in the purview of scum? In my not particularly extraordinary mafia career, I have yet to see a bottom. There is no rabbit hole too deep from which any one townie will happily dive right into while the rest of everybody looks from the top down with shaking heads. And so, when I do see this happening, there are a good chuck of times I simply attribute it to town when in fact its just scum being audacious.

So what is the case for Saber? Firstly, right off the bat, I am positive Saber claimed their true power. If they were scum with a different one, well I do not think anyone would have the imagination to decide to blast off into being forced to defend the one claimed, which as anyone (normal) can see, is complete shit. However there is a case to be made (and I am leaning this way and will offer it) that Saber may very well have taken this power, and mentally decided to treat it as the next best thing to sliced bread. This is still insanity. No one of us would ever do this, but if Saber's proven anything, they have proven they are insane.

I can't actually show from their posts that saber doesn't think their power is the bee's knees when used early. Almost all are frighteningly consistent on that point. Arguably the very first few posts, like 35 are the only cracks there as Saber's other posts tend to signal that they think they are well-suited to the power (see 77, 205, 206, and 218) which would suggest they do in fact like the power. The context for 208 is actually what's happening right now, judgement time, but it is also consistent with someone who knows their power isn't all that good and less likely to come from someone who believes their power is good, for would we reasonable people not find Saber's oversell completely justified given the godlike power they claim to have? Why should Saber worry at all?

There are a couple posts in the iso I don't like but can't make up my mind if they are AI or simply make it clearer that Saber is selfish. Namely, 206 and more recently 909. The first is quite unsympathetic and the 2nd one really just discounts the fact objectively scum would have more to fear from a 100% guaranteed cop check than the mystery option. What moves me over the edge though is a couple of perspective inconsistencies: The paranoia of buddying. It exists in posts 235, 468, 472, and 520. By itself, possibly just overused diction stolen from 2015er newborns. But it really doesn't jive with posts like 316, 474, and to a lesser extent 909. That is, one cannot be both scared of buddying and argue that scum is trying to push over town by not supporting/advancing Saber's bid. Individually, each stance might be plausible to Saber, but I don't see a way to reconcile these.

I know I've basically thrown the kitchen sink here at Saber but I'm being as thorough as I can. And even still I'm not sure there isn't a better elimination option.

I mean I literally cannot tell whether assassin thinks saber is towny or scummy or has done anything town-indicative or scum-indicative. There is no actual stance on saber's alignment anywhere in here as far as I can tell. Even the last part that talks about the inconsistencies in saber's posting, assassin says he can't decide whether those are AI.

[Servant Lancer]

I don't like the wagon composition on Moon cancer.

That's pretty much my only objection.

Who on the wagon don't you like?

[Servant Lancer]

Based on Saber + Beast claims, I don't think I'd buy an investigative type claim here regardless, and I don't think a different type of claim can be so town that we'd change what we're doing

I don't have a personal opinion on Moon Cancer, but feel obligated to follow Berserker's 1091. That and I do see the merit in moving this along so we can discuss the next elimination, and I don't think this one is going to change

I don't understand, why do saber and beast claims affect the possibility of an investigative?

[Servant Lancer]

why do people care if scum are bussing

scum elim = good????

[Servant Lancer]

Sure, Berserker. Do you want me to vote Saber?

As long as it’s in Saber or moon I’m happy.

VOTE: Saber

Can you explain why you picked voting saber over moon here?

[Servant Lancer]

updated-ish reads list:

our lord and savior: berserker
probtown: archer/ruler/rider/alter/shielder/foreigner
null-ish: caster/beast
maybe scum: saber/assassin
probably scum: avenger/moon cancer

[Servant Lancer]

why does it matter when you answer?

[Servant Lancer]

straight up forgot you/I said that

I still maintain 1007 doesn’t appear to result in a read.

[Servant Lancer]

in a vacuum I’m not sure I’d care as much, but after you basically said you couldn’t decide on how you were reading saber, you still concluded that saber was the best elimination even with moon cancer on the table which doesn’t make much sense to me

[Servant Lancer]

what was that again about moon cancer "not being scummy"?

pedit: I don't think it's impossible. moon cancer's abilities look pretty strong.

[Servant Lancer]

locktowning archer

people looking bad on moon scumflip:

assassin:

wording around moon cancer vote rubs me the wrong way. he says it is "prudent" to eliminate moon cancer - this is mostly what I was referring to when I said this was awkward (I think). read around saber also felt like he was just saying words to say words.

caster:

reaction to the gladiate was nonexistent, used notscience's post as basis for vote and avoided saying literally anything else about the gladiate

beast:

hesitance to join the wagon because "scum would be bussing,"

implying that he thought or knew that moon cancer was scum but still didn't want to vote

avenger:

while the gladiate came at a time that might be considered "too brazen for a partner to do," I think that's exactly why it could have been used by scum. especially since moon cancer's abilities look pretty strong. beast/avenger unlikely to be partners.

ALSO

I'd just like to point out that moon cancer's NP granted NP charge to other players, so I think the argument that saber is town simply because he has one ability that grants NP and cabd wouldn't give that ability to scum is a very bad reason to townread saber unless you are townreading him for other reasons. (as I also said before, cabd has probably provided decent fakeclaims as well so townreading someone for telling the truth about their abilities is also not a good reason to townread someone.)

[Servant Lancer]

Assuming saber's ability is one-shot, granting one * is really not that strong and not that scum-sided if given to scum. I don't see why this should remove saber from someone's scumpool without other reasons to townread saber.

[Servant Lancer]

Going to need more from you than shrugging this off and moving on.
Why did you use your gladiate there?
Why did you pull it back so fast instead of arguing more for it?
What was your read on Moon Cancer at the time?

Why ignore me asking you this in 1291?

VOTE: Servant Avenger

I used it because I just think foreigner is scum. That's obvious.
You say I'm shrugging it off... I see it as I made a bad play, and I had a kicking about it from half the game all spamming at me.
I thought about it, decide it was a bad play as well and decided to leave you lot to action accordingly
My action wasn't because I think Moon is town, although I did by default, my action was purely from foreigner being scum. So I haven't really got Moon flipping scum to apologies for. I think this is the wrong focus that was pushed on rather that what I was obviously aiming for.
I'll take the back lash as needed though, I'm not going to say that it wasn't a bad play, and I'm not going to say that anyone listens to me unless I prove myself back into the game.

You can see this is a cop out attempt, but it's just my thought aspect to it.

I didn't ignore 1291 either, I didn't see it. There's a difference.

you gladiated right when moon cancer was about to die, so I would say the focus on your read on Moon cancer versus your read on foreigner is very justified. because if you're town, you must have thought your scumread on foreigner was so much stronger than everyone else's reasons to scumread moon cancer.

[Servant Lancer]

If there's some reward for doing the gladiate, it makes sense to target MC.

If there's a loyal/disloyal aspect, it also makes sense to target MC.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

[Servant Lancer]

With 14 players alive, it will take 8 votes to burn a servant.

Foreigner (4): Avenger, Beast, Ruler, Moon Cancer
Saber (4): Alter Ego, Rider, Lancer, Archer
Moon Cancer (2): Foreigner, Saber

Deadline: (expired on 2021-07-12 00:17:51)


Page Usage: 7/42

foreigner seems to be the pretty clearly designated counterwagon to moon cancer (formed before the saber wagon)
saber's wagon should be all town here. moon cancer and shielder joined later.

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: caster

[Servant Lancer]

If there's some reward for doing the gladiate, it makes sense to target MC.

If there's a loyal/disloyal aspect, it also makes sense to target MC.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Sorry. I missed this.

I am not sure how it's unclear so forgive me if I don't make this clearer.

If Avenger got a bonus for gladiating, going with the consensus target makes sense.

If Avenger could tell the alignment of the target by the gladiate, it make sense to go with MC.

he didn't gladiate MC though..?

[Servant Lancer]

in my limited experience, town!mastina is just as likely to hard defend scum like that, so I'm not sure that's alignment-indicative. The new Ruler has had some pretty weird takes though.

[Servant Lancer]

caster: reaction to the gladiate was nonexistent, used notscience's post as basis for vote and avoided saying literally anything else about the gladiate

I was not online during the gladiate

when I logged on the gladiate was over.

ok and still no reaction to it?

also

this is literally during the gladiate:

VOTE: Avenger

I think this is what Notsci would've wanted from the post he slipped on

[Servant Lancer]

instead of reading 8 pages of people yelling at Foreigner I just read what Notty's last post was and it was an OK to vote for the person I thought was pretty susp before I fell went to bed so I voted Moon Cancer.

you voted avenger, who notscience did not mention in his last post, and cited notscience's last post for it. ???

[Servant Lancer]

If I may be permitted a brief moment of self-indulgence: I told you so.

I'll take a look at the relationship between Moon Caster and Saber, but I'm going to prudently treat Moon's reads as being WIFOM.

This is probably wise, NK15 hardly even bothered to explain himself after his first few posts, I feel like he went into shutdown mode the moment he got even the slightest bit of heat. Posts in the Townstumps Scum PT indicate he doesn't really put in effort.

What's going to be more relevant is how people positioned themselves around Moon Cancer. Given the strength of his role I suspect that scumteam didn't want to lose him right away and that was why he was so difficult to flip.

I'm not going to immediately jump on Avenger for the hasty gladiate, that was a dumb and incredibly frustrating move but I'm not sure if scum would willingly draw so much attention to themself like that. I have a few other people in mind I want to take a look back at.

Given this I take it you think scum should be off the Moon wagon, especially the initial one?

likely off the initial moon cancer wagon (probably on foreigner or, less likely, on saber), but probably at least one on the second wagon because notscience had declared moon as the elim already. staying off entirely would probably be considered too suspicious.

[Servant Lancer]

beast/avenger unlikely to be partners.

Why do you think this?

I don't remember but will go check

caster: reaction to the gladiate was nonexistent, used notscience's post as basis for vote and avoided saying literally anything else about the gladiate

I was not online during the gladiate

when I logged on the gladiate was over.

ok and still no reaction to it?

also

this is literally during the gladiate:

VOTE: Avenger

I think this is what Notsci would've wanted from the post he slipped on

still not very satisfied with caster recently.

@caster can you give thoughts/reaction to avenger's gladiate now, since you're here?

[Servant Lancer]

Do you think that having a gladiate ability is inherently townie? Do you think that the way Avenger used it was particularly townie? Were you town reading them before the gladiate?

Tldr, no i don't think it's particularly townie, i think that as a role itself its Neutral but how it was used is not a scum for scum trade and the scum flip there further

On top of everything else, everything strongly points to Saber being truthful and all the push on saber is largely due to playstyle difference and i wouldnt be surprised if there was a bad faith argument being made in sabers direction

I thought saber was more null before the gladiate and I dont understand how they suddenly moved to hard scum by multiple people due to it.

Excuse me for my language but my lord and savior wouldnt approve of my rage.

At least one between lancer/alter is scum for their hard push against avenger.

Thats a horrible trade off but I dont see two scum going to bat for their buddy in this manner

Or avenger either horribly misplayed or is scum but do go on, would love to hear more about this

And i would love to hear more about my sloy being scum but you moving away from it in favor for... (I would have to check) despite me being solid scum.

I have literally never called you scum??? so I'm not sure why you're saying this???

explain why you think one of me/alter is scum for pushing avenger

[Servant Lancer]

your deflection of my question is also noted

[Servant Lancer]

@Ruler first you say archer is towny and then that if your main-guess is correct that this is actually their scum meta? That feels contradictory

@Ruler you also say that your read on Saber is neither pure nor corrupt but then down below you separate them out of your nullpile into the possibly corrupt pile. What differentiates Saber’s slot from the nullpile such that you say they’re possibly corrupt, given that you said you have no read on them either way?

@Ruler thanks for clarifying. Can you explain why you put Beast on the same tier as me/archer/berserker? Any thoughts on their posts other than 88?

oh yeah I forgot I put ruler as one of my preferred eliminations during the master selection phase. mostly because I thought it was mastina hard-defending scum and thought it would be a distraction to town. I've put your slot as probtown for every one of my readslist since then though. and I led the wagon back onto moon cancer who like, flipped scum. so I'm hard-pressed to understand why you're treating me like you think I'm scum here.

[Servant Lancer]

who's calling saber hardscum due to the gladiate? I don't think anyone is. if they're scumreading him it's due to other, unrelated factors.

awk I did not mean to put those quotes there.

[Servant Lancer]

just gonna say... I think this conversation did more to make me scumread Ruler than anything else this game. weird focus on me/alter who I think are two of the towniest slots in the game, for pushing avenger who clearly made either a scum-motivated or suboptimal play. no comment on any of the numerous other slots who had a way scummier reaction to the gladiate; no comment on the moon cancer wagon which alter and I were both pushing pretty hard.

[Servant Lancer]

because I've seen town!mastina distract the hell out of town by defending scumreads and I had no interest in letting that happen. see: moon cancer elim.

[Servant Lancer]

Who do you think is making the bad faith argument?

I've already made it clear who i think it is and i think my issue with alter is a difference in views.

I'm also not a fan of lancers positipn around alter

my position being... that I think they're town? honestly wtf is this

[Servant Lancer]

Also sabers getting eliminated ovrr my dead body

literally zero votes on saber... why are you so worked up over people supposedly scumreading saber when there is no wagon?

[Servant Lancer]

I was like 90% sure it was mastina as soon as she made her first post but didn't say anything because we were supposed to remain anonymous.

[Servant Lancer]

missed those apparently. anyway, what "bad faith" argument have I made about saber?

[Servant Lancer]

explain why you think one of me/alter is scum for pushing avenger

[Servant Lancer]

Do you think that having a gladiate ability is inherently townie? Do you think that the way Avenger used it was particularly townie? Were you town reading them before the gladiate?

Tldr, no i don't think it's particularly townie, i think that as a role itself its Neutral but how it was used is not a scum for scum trade and the scum flip there further

I still don't understand why you were so angry at us for pushing Avenger when the gladiate was in effect? Can you explain that again?

If the moon cancer flip has changed your stance, you can mention that too, but I am specifically asking for you to explain your stance pre-moon cancer flip.

What lead to to making these posts :

Spoiler:

THIS IS DUMB AF

WHY ARE WE MOVING TO ELIMINATE THE GLADIATOR

Excuse me for my language but my lord and savior wouldnt approve of my rage.

At least one between lancer/alter is scum for their hard push against avenger.

Thats a horrible trade off but I dont see two scum going to bat for their buddy in this manner

And, why did you hone in on Lancer/Alter, as opposed to the several other people, incuding me and including Saber, who all pushed back similarly to the way Lancer and Saber reacted

I don't think you answered this one either

[Servant Lancer]

Nope, the argument I was making was "either you're town who has done something really anti-town/arrogant/stupid, or scum" and I'm happy to yeet both.

This gladiate is either the most anti-town shit you could have pulled, or just scum.

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: Saber
Well, that is easy. Thanks for claiming scum.

The last, and only, specific reason to scumread Alter came from post 238. I don't find it convincing. How has that read matured over time and what specific posts can you point to as to support your conclusions?

That read has not changed. It is fully based on the early posts on Alter Ego having more evasive words in their posts than any normal townie. And no post of Alter Ego after that time has caused me to reconsider.

I think we have gotten everything we could have before the first elimination. We should move on.

^

Do we have thoughts on whether Moon Cancer posts this about Saber!Scum?

archer says yes. I don't know yet

just gonna say... I think this conversation did more to make me scumread Ruler than anything else this game. weird focus on me/alter who I think are two of the towniest slots in the game, for pushing avenger who clearly made either a scum-motivated or suboptimal play. no comment on any of the numerous other slots who had a way scummier reaction to the gladiate; no comment on the moon cancer wagon which alter and I were both pushing pretty hard.

?

Ruler is very town imo.

Mastina!town and Mastina!scum look nothing alike.

when it was just mastina making weird takes, I was fine townreading that slot. a second person with takes that are really really far off from consensus seems too much of a coincidence.

[Servant Lancer]

not consensus but rather, thoughts that I can understand

[Servant Lancer]

if you want me to try to explain how I read people, I will, but it sounds like you're going to tell me my methods are wrong so I don't think it's going to be very productive.

I've already mentioned my experience with mastina is very limited.

[Servant Lancer]

I've got alot of blind spots, probably to many.

I saw several people voting avenger for "bad play" and " sub optimal plat" and nothing on how the gladiate choice was actually scum motivated away from trading 1 for 1 scum which is dumb play

why me and alter specifically out of those people?

we already talked about this when the gladiate happened. it occurred right as moon cancer was about to be eliminated so it looked like he was trying to save moon cancer, who we now know flipped scum.

Foreigner is town. Berserker had them as town. Berserker had just announced that moon cancer was going to be his chosen first elim.

This gladiate is either the most anti-town shit you could have pulled, or just scum.

I want to point out here that Berzerker is mentioned when giving the read on foreigner because they are confirmed town, correct?
Meaning that that view is genuine and there for should be listened to.

So if I am to flip town, where does this leave the read in your view? Given that my thoughts are equally as geniuen.

I mentioned Berserker because you took an action that explicitly undermined his views as town leader for what seems like a bad reason compared to the opportunity you had to gladiate saber who should be near-confirmed scum to you. I also trust his reads, but the main point here is that this action is inherently anti-town for opposing the town leader and forcing the elim like this.

I am still pretty sure Foreigner is town. I don't really think your alignment impacts my read. My scumread on you is entirely independent of your target.

I also talked about how I could see avenger being town but wasn't going to vote for foreigner so my vote was going to avenger instead, because he (at the time) refused to remove the gladiate.

[Servant Lancer]

you're in my nullpile...?

[Servant Lancer]

beast/avenger unlikely to be partners.

Why do you think this?

I still don't remember why I said this! pretend I didn't.

[Servant Lancer]

I am?

I thought you had me as top scumpick and favored elimination today...

no? I'm doing the thing called using my vote for pressure

updated-ish reads list:

our lord and savior: berserker
probtown: archer/ruler/rider/alter/shielder/foreigner
null-ish: caster/beast
maybe scum: saber/assassin
probably scum: avenger/moon cancer

[Servant Lancer]

provide... content?

[Servant Lancer]

Who do you think is making the bad faith argument?

I've already made it clear who i think it is and i think my issue with alter is a difference in views.

I'm also not a fan of lancers positipn around alter

my position being... that I think they're town? honestly wtf is this

[Servant Lancer]

I've already mentioned my experience with mastina is very limited.

But its enough for you to figure out she was the one behind the slot?

I don't need to have played mafia games with her to recognize her writing style.

how do you believe this line of questioning and resulting information will be useful to you in figuring out my alignment? because right now it seems like you are pursuing this as if you're trying to "gotcha" me.

[Servant Lancer]

kk. this was super alignment-indicative for me, yep.

[Servant Lancer]

VOTE: ruler

[Servant Lancer]

right. would you like to explain how your scumread on me fits with me being the person to swing the wagon back to moon cancer?

mastina's writing style is incredibly distinctive. I've read a bunch of her posts in discussion and really don't need to have played mafia with her to recognize it.

[Servant Lancer]

I've already mentioned my experience with mastina is very limited.

But its enough for you to figure out she was the one behind the slot?

VOTE: lancer i think this is overdue

I've already mentioned my experience with mastina is very limited.

But its enough for you to figure out she was the one behind the slot?

From her firsr post while I'm at it

Er, what? How is recognizing someone's posting style supposed to be scummy?

He’s trying to play the “gotcha” game as if I’ve been caught out in a lie because I said I haven’t played much with mastina but

somehow

recognized her writing immediately. His other reasons for scumreading me are voting avenger (which I’ve already attempted to engage him about and he ignored), and brings up my “positioning around alter” which does not make any sense (I also asked about this and was ignored).

Ruler slot has consistently had takes that I cannot wrap my head around - takes that are so wildly off from where I am. Their view of the game does not make sense to me. Usually when someone is town and I disagree with them, I can at least understand why they are taking the stances they are and where they’re coming from. One example is that Ruler saw Saber’s reasoning for master bid and then was like “yeah this makes sense why Saber wanted NP and why he said he wanted to use it immediately and that it was stronger than a full cop shot,” which is so so so far from where I am in the universe. It would be one thing if Ruler simply said something I disagreed with, but his stances are consistently so far out of the realm of logic to me that I don’t believe it’s town. Scumreading alter and me for pushing avenger, who clearly made a super anti-town play if he was town and derailed a wagon on literally flipped scum, and ignoring everything else about our play, and then adding “alter might just be someone I disagree with” but then “I dislike lancer’s position around alter” does not seem like it can come from town. What’s the difference between me and alter, other than that I’ve been pushing and questioning Ruler? Why is alter someone he “just disagrees with me” but I’m the one positioning around Alter? (Highly disagree with that characterization by the way! Alter called me town first, I do not have any “positioning” around him.)

Finally, when I suspected the slot was mastina, I was okay with not being able to vibe with any of her takes because that’s kind of par for the course on my reading her posts anyway. A second person in the same slot who makes actually no sense to me and whose thoughts I can’t see coming from town has to be more than just coincidence.

[Servant Lancer]

Also pending certain things, i think sabers claim is believable enough

believable /= town

I am pretty sure this is the point berserker is trying to get at. Is saber's NP their true NP? (it doesn't really matter but) if town, probably. if scum, he is probably claiming the true NP or something close to it so as not to mess up any details. Even if the claim is true though, that does not mean that saber is town by default. Are you townreading him?

Still relevant

[Servant Lancer]

I'm not super confident that saber will flip scum either, but I highly prefer saber elim over foreigner. Foreigner appeared to be the designated scum counterwagon, and shouldn't be on the table after moon cancer scumflip.

[Servant Lancer]

Are those the only two options?

[Servant Lancer]

saber is being voted for the incongruity between their claim and asserted role strength during the master selection phase, right? I see how that's scummy, but I kinda think there's also room for doubt since iirc there's some sort of thing where roles get upgraded if chosen for master? I don't think I quite get that whole deal yet

Cabd has a post where he says that Scum NP's get upgraded if one of them gets a master.

For a town player, all that happens is that their NP gets fully charged.

--------------

Saber's NP is that he can limit the posting of one player. ---

With which he came out, guns blazing, claiming that he had "one of the strongest NPs in the game" and that we should give him the master, and that the scum team would be really afraid of giving him the master. He openly said that his NP was as good (if not better) then a cop result.

I find it hard to see a town player playing this way. When I look at his campaign, it really, really feels to me like the campaign the scum team would make Already, went into that before:

Saber

Saber's campaign for the master feels like the exact campaign a cautious scum team would make. Like I can imagine the planning conversation

Spoiler:

"How can we get the master"
"Well, one of us can claim we have an insanely powerful NP"

"But wait, what happens if I don't get chosen, won't they expect me to do something amazing later in the game?"

"I know, just say that it is only good in the early game"
"So okay, how does this sound:

My NP is one of the strongest in the game, if used correctly and early. It's totally weaksauce if used late and arguably detrimental.

"ahh, that's perfect."

I also stand by what I said in 213 -- Saber's worry there makes no sense coming from town. When would you ever be worried about this? ---I don't think town ever is, but it feels similar to what I bolded in the hypothetical conversation. Also, not a fan of their "town read everyone" read list 472

If a town Master is selected, the town Master + servant is revealed as an innocent child and becomes unkillable by ANY means until day two has passed.

The servant in that slot will additionally have their role modified to account for the additional support they now have

. Day 1 will become an double-elimination day and last for 240 hours (10 days) instead of 168 hours (7 days). (The first elimination WILL reset the vote count)

I have bolded the part that I'm referring to

I assumed that was to include the fact that they were IC'ed, and the fact that they gained the ability to give out * to other players.

So I think it is safe to assume that Saber's NP does not gain anything extra from getting the master; they clearly would have mentioned it when they explained why they fought for the master

I mean, also, looking at my own PM - it does not indicate any changes that would occur from getting the master.

just ftr - I believe this language was left over from the first game so it's a bit confusing. I'm pretty sure it goes like this:

scum gets master -> the upgrade is that all scum NPs gain double charge every day
town gets master -> the upgrade is that town IC gets full NP charge and can give out 1 * to two people

as you said, I don't believe there are any role-specific upgrades the same way that there were in game 1.

[Servant Lancer]

why? you haven't mentioned scumreading them until now as far as I recall.

[Servant Lancer]

why? you haven't mentioned scumreading them until now as far as I recall.

It's been awhile, but no, I've been scum reading them for the most part. I moved my vote off when Berserker asked for Saber or Moon, I voted Saber for the aforementioned wrong reasons.

okay can you explain why you are scumreading them?