Titus v Nancy Drew (Game Over)

[Pyro]

Wait wait wait, Pooky, was that a vig claim?

[Pyro]

ok Pink Ball's town

we're killing clidd

italiano on fey, gunsmith italiano, rolestop me, replacement vanilla cops mastina

lock it in and let's wrap this shit up

vanilla cop will still be important since the vanilla cop claims result before the rest of massclaim

Flip clidd

italiano on fey, gunsmith Akarin, rolestop {pool of S&W and Sarah}, replacement vanilla cops Olaf

Lock?

This looks pretty good for clidd I think

[Pyro]

Where do you want to vote today, Dunny?

Toogeloo, for reasons I outlined yesterday.

I don't think w & p flipping scum changes anything in regards to that, what do you think?

Your Toogeloo case was the best part of your play for me. Just checking you're still consistent on that.

[Pyro]

VOTE: Toogeloo

[Pyro]

Maybe we should kill you so you drive safer

[Pyro]

sick prank

[Pyro]

Who's the gunsmith? I think Nancy should execute them.

Such a weird post. I can totally see this as a bad distance attempt.

[Pyro]

I would be more energetic for the Toog wagon if it happened yesterday.

Not vibing rn.

Why?

[Pyro]

What's the difference I mean

[Pyro]

4898 5117

This Dunnstral fella seems pretty smart

[Pyro]

Bad associations with TWO flipped scumslots is one slot too many

[Pyro]

Or maybe two, depends how generous you're feeling

[Pyro]

Who's the gunsmith? I think Nancy should execute them.

Such a weird post. I can totally see this as a bad distance attempt.

Why would toogeloo want the gunsmith executed if he is claiming vt and doesn't know who the gunsmith is?

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I think he knows who the gunsmith claim is and is feigning ignorance to make himself look unaligned with War and Peace since he would know if they shared a scum PT. But it's just unlikely he doesn't know at that point and the "Nancy should execute them" reads as fake.

[Pyro]

Yeah, cool

[Pyro]

'helping scum hide' when you're the only other one posting you say DKKoba?. very interesting.

UNVOTE: Fey

Uh, what?

you didn't claim in the vanilla massclaim 1+1=notvanilla

Wtf... is this just overt mason hunting

Hm, this does reads over the top association wise

[Pyro]

Not the first post

[Pyro]

That case isn't bad at all, Fey. It is weird that she only has good things to say about that slot but then it doesn't make it into townleans and is then in the PoE. Might be because the popular opinion was that they were scummy at the time.

[Pyro]

Looking through VCs I feel better about Dunny now. Followed me onto War and Peace and only left that wagon to vote Sherlock and Watson before rejoining later.

[Pyro]

Strange, my result when I was a vanilla cop variant 2 versus games ago was "Your target is vanilla"

I could see why Alisae would specify the name if a bus driver exists but it's still weird

[Pyro]

What was the wording of the result night 1? I can't even remember who your slot claimed to check then.

[Pyro]

lol

[Pyro]

WnP are indeed not vanilla, i wanted to verify them since they claimed before my slot did.

Did it say War and Peace or "your target"?

[Pyro]

Why is that so crazy, Toog? If you're scum, it protects you from the potential vig, there's clear scum motivation to make a drive like that. And the drive also dodges KidAmn's rolestopper if for whatever reason he had a mason read on REK.

[Pyro]

You're listing out what we think and acting like it's insane, but I want to hear WHY you think that's insane or a bad play to make for scum

[Pyro]

i'd go for KidAm here but what's the point of even playing in this setup, especially when trying to solve and getting it right is apparently scum indicative. hey nancy, let me know if you want to go kidam

Why KidAmn over Toog?

[Pyro]

Happy soon to be Birthday!

[Pyro]

Ordered:

Morning Tweet - towntold plenty
Fey - obvtown from meta
Pink Ball - Titus doesn't encourage Saudade's toxicity, and the floof's solving and interactions with Nancy upon entering
clidd - Sherlock tried to push him as the designated launch EoD1 is my one reason to think he's town. His posting on this page is better though. Actually, I'm moving him up after giving some more thought to it. His reaction to olaf's (godspeed) push on him in 4669 and 4672 is really towny. There's no last minute convincing or trying to appeal to everyone else, just accepting his fate and I think clidd tries harder there as scum to get out of that while he doesn't care as much as town
KidAmn - Gamma was out of his scumrange I believe.

@clidd

, if you have examples of Gamma being unnecessarily toxic to the point where it turns conftown against him for no good reason, I'd like to see where from
Dunnstral - Claim makes sense and his points haven't been

bad

SaraharaS - Don't have a reason to townread her


Starcrossed is a ball of agony in my head, and they're not getting a place until I know whether they're a mason/vig or not. To be clear though: Their play makes sense as one of those, but if they're neither, it's really scummy.

[Pyro]

Fey had a position in relation to Sherlock and W/P mostly towny. Dunn presented an interestingly towny reasoning regarding the Toog push. Star saw me as town very early but it would be silly for scum!Pooky and scum!Kanna to do that, since they both know how my reasoning process works when I think someone should see me as town or scum given the way I imagine that my play must be interpreted by each player. Olaf presented a meta-dive to try to read me that reflected a lot as coming from an uninformed perspective, that is, town. Nora had a stubborn behavior that I classify as town!Nora, although Morning is not playing in such a towny way in the sense of interpreting the game, which I am used to seeing from town!Morning, but regardless, the impression remains.

Kanna's super confident townread on you early makes you 100% town if they're scum

[Pyro]

Since no one's done draft speculation yet, these are the players I think Titus is most likely to pick:

War and Peace (Ircher + samantha97)
Sherlock and Watson (Krazy + PenguinPower)
Starcrossed (Kanna + PookyTheMagicalBear)

???
Gamma Emerald
Morty and Rick (mastina + Auro)
Dunnstral
Battle Mage

[Pyro]

at the risk of looking super scummy if this flips scum, can i just ask is this really a mech guilty though? like, the bus driver is definitely scum, but could they not have driven 2 townies?

And what about the rest of their play?

i think their play has been fine. at some points i.e the one where they were like "just execute me," feels good, even. the stuff sherlock said about toog also didn't look partnery, even though it's true that's not enough for a clear

It's not a mech guilty, but it's really likely for it to be scum due to mafia potentially trying to protect from the vig, along with not knowing dkkoba's role would give them the exact person they target and maybe not expecting them to target REK

I think they are worth voting without the information from the redirect

the vig part i agree with, but now that i think about it, i'm concerned about:
- bussing a town!toog with REK also bypasses any protection, cause there's no way toog gets protected
- with how scumread toog was, i could see him getting copped. and koba is a vanilla cop, right, so maybe scum didn't expect them to be told who they copped and wanted to fake guilty him by implying he lied about his vanilla

it's all just about the vig protection. i don't think this is "confscum"

~musk

What is the meaning of this

What are you doing here, ~musk

[Pyro]

Morty and Rick has died. They were a

Vanilla Townie

Sherlock and Watson has died. They were a

1-shot Dayvig

Morty and Rick were supposed to be protected.

Scum has a dayvig??? Dafuq? Whomever shot Krazy, you have my utmost gratitude.

I'm deeply confused because I submitted a rolestop on M&R,

but Gamma had claimed down to even-night so who fuckin knows

I'm also hella busy with RL this morning and 193 pages is not an easy catchup so bear with me y'all

What did you mean by this part,

KidAmn

?

[Pyro]

Batsunami
Fey
Clidd
Morty and Rick
Red Eye Knights
Toogeloo
ItalianoVD
Saudade
Gamma Emerald
Starcrossed
SaraharaS
Dunnstral
Sherlock and Watson
5uffering
War and Peace

5uffering - My read on him depends a lot on his main which is a little frustrating
Starcrossed - Kanna is towny and Pooky is scummy
Dunnstral - Takes are fine, but the shift in tone is bothering me. I'm used to him being harsher as town

Usually the first full readslist I put out in a game is the most accurate so maybe I should sheep my past self

[Pyro]

Why would the fact they know you're even night and can act that same night affect anything? I thought your confusion was regarding how your action didn't work

[Pyro]

*flops ears*

Hi Tweetie :3

I like a Sarah/Kidam scumteam for the final 2 baddies.

I should talk to Kanna some more about this game :>

~.~

[Pyro]

Never mind, probably semantics

[Pyro]

Okay, sorry, Starcrossed.

Pyro, for instance, has been constantly pushing Kanna and Pooky to make them claim. I still believe that Battle Mage's wagon formed in part because he was partially scumreading Pyro, so he was the best counterwagon to W&P.

Why do you keep bringing up that Battle Mage point? It's very obvious that Battle Mage was wagoned and killed because of Batsunami's hard push and I don't get this conspiracy theory you keep bringing up, like what's the evidence behind it?

Pedit: I did say Kanna's play was the best part of their hydra, Nancy, Pooky's absolute lack of interest and lack of interaction with you really threw me off though. I'd have expected him to be interacting with you a whole lot more and to be much more involved with the game unless he was a mason already interacting with you in a mason PR, or a vig intentionally lurking to avoid a nightkill

[Pyro]

*mason PT

[Pyro]

Pyro, for instance, has been constantly pushing Kanna and Pooky to make them claim.

Yes, this was intentional.

[Pyro]

One of Sarah/Clidd is scum. Which one of you is it.

@Sarah, @Clidd can we please get a current readslist from you guys? I’d also like one from @Kidamn, @PB, @Pyro, @Dunn and eventhough she’s now a townlock for me, I like to get Tweetie and Starcrossed’s reads to compare and contrast with.

Fey
Tweetie
Starcrossed
Dunn

~~~

PB
Pyro

~~~

Sarah/Clidd/KidAmn

Fey, Tweetie, Starcrossed, Dunn are my most confident trs. Fey has been a townlock since game started. I have reasons to townlock Tweetie as well. Starcrossed - confirmed one shot vig duh. Dunn, scum doc is almost never a thing besides he’s been super obvtown from the getgo. Krazy pushed PB both for “gun check” plus lim. Pyro seems townie

However Gamma’s even night claim was probably real and we know that bus drive happened on odd night but I very much doubt that it’s not ungated, so possibly two scum amongst the vt claims? The bus drive on Toog makes it almost certain at least one.

Of the vt claims, I think Pyro and PB look the best but then I’d also expect Pyro to be a helluva a lot better at reading Kanna.

I’m going to guess that Titus had a no loyal/disloyal rule because I think game is ridiculously scumsided if no protectives and taking into account both scum bus driver + compulsive town vanillaizer, I could see both protectives still being town. I also don’t see Titus creating an odd/even night role which makes me think that bus driver is either one one shot or ungated. I also think Ircher whiteknighted Gamma.

Of course @Dunn, you should also take into account the context of that Gamma claim. Iirc. it happened on D2, so Gamma might have just claimed that for survival reasons since that’s when I initially pushed him for the claim.

I think we should look at who was pushing Saudade slot because Krazy made a federal case about limming AtE slots.

So rn I think it’s between Sarah/Clidd, possibly KidAmn? but want the day to play out to decide. Krazy made it a point of needing to get “Noraa out of [his] head” and that means Clidd or Pyro unless that was just totally wifom.

I'm just gonna point out that all 4 of your top townreads think I'm town, Nancy. Trust in the people who can read me. Well, I don't expect Dunny to be able to always read me well, but Fey/Morning/Kanna/Pooky are all very familiar with me

Pink Ball
Dunnstral
clidd
Sarah/KidAmn

I agree with Pink Ball that Dunny push two scum partners for a large portion of day 1 seems unlikely

[Pyro]

My main reason to think Sarah might be scum is just for the weird War and Peace progression. I know she insists it's not weird to only like a couple of things and have them in the PoE, but I still find it strange that she has good vibes on them and points out 1 or 2 posts of theirs she likes but then they're in the PoE with no sign of the progression for why they got there

pedit: because I seriously thought they were scum if not a Mason or vig

[Pyro]

VOTE: Sarah

I think this is the 2nd or 3rd vote

pedit: maybe, they have this post where they call war and peace's readslist hot garbage which shows a complete lack of solving ir whatever, but that's never followed up on and their scumread on the slot is never stated otherwise, until a wagon actually forms on War and Peace

[Pyro]

Even as someone at the top end of this list I can comfortably say most of this list is hot garbo and indicative of a complete lack of intent to gamesolve

this I mean

[Pyro]

Sarah AND Clidd, or something, I dunno, KidAmn hasn't done too much to be that towny, maybe I am misremembering.

I feel rather confident on Pyro being town, we had the same reads for the most part save for some variances. Paranoia there should not be tolerated, really.

<3

Our roles were destined to be reversed someday

[Pyro]

You sound very sure of it, I feel safe

[Pyro]

I was really hoping for a game where I could use my ability in peace
It’s kinda a shot at redemption since last time I had it I missed an action and replaced out when I realized it

You do realize that you pleading with Titus in the signup thread to draft you, doesn’t exactly inspire a lot of confidence especially since she made multiple posts to Noraa about not drafting her due to “demotivation”?

Are you seriously stuck on that?
I SAID I WANTED SCUM IN

A DRAFT GAME

. NOT

THIS

DRAFT GAME SPECIFICALLY.

This post is really, really bad tbh unless town!Gamma is being unnecessarily dense. The implication that he wants scum in a draft game = he would want scum in this draft game is extremely obvious

[Pyro]

aaaa, the toxicity is still really toxic though and more likely to come from town even though that sucks.

clidd, I had a look at your Gamma ISOs compilation but I couldn't find any obvious toxicity in the scumgame I opened and I admit I'm lazy. Could you link me to the ISO(s) which has him get toxic as scum?

[Pyro]

4272
4280

It's interesting how Sherlock has a very different reaction to both of these posts. Gamma was as toxic and 5uffering in my opinion, yet Sherlock reacts with a LOT more hostility towards the latter and aims to push him.

[Pyro]

Not just that Gamma post I mean, but all of Gamma's posts during that period were as toxic as those 5uffering posts

[Pyro]

I was really hoping for a game where I could use my ability in peace
It’s kinda a shot at redemption since last time I had it I missed an action and replaced out when I realized it

You do realize that you pleading with Titus in the signup thread to draft you, doesn’t exactly inspire a lot of confidence especially since she made multiple posts to Noraa about not drafting her due to “demotivation”?

Are you seriously stuck on that?
I SAID I WANTED SCUM IN

A DRAFT GAME

. NOT

THIS

DRAFT GAME SPECIFICALLY.

This post is really, really bad tbh unless town!Gamma is being unnecessarily dense. The implication that he wants scum in a draft game = he would want scum in this draft game is extremely obvious

Yeah, that over reaction was hella sus so probably just Sarah/KidAmn. Also Kidamn is far more likely to be busdriver if scum than Sarah because of Koba’s role but probably safer to vote out Sarah because of Toog.


So either Sarah/Kidamn. I think Clidd is probably town from the way Krazy pushed him.

I think so, yeah

[Pyro]

Morning sent me a compilation of her killing rodents with shotguns and flamethrowers 2 nights ago which was kinda sus tbh. I don't get why she'd try and demoralise me like that?

It's a good thing she towntold like 10 times this game so I know she's town

[Pyro]

aaaa, the toxicity is still really toxic though and more likely to come from town even though that sucks.

clidd, I had a look at your Gamma ISOs compilation but I couldn't find any obvious toxicity in the scumgame I opened and I admit I'm lazy. Could you link me to the ISO(s) which has him get toxic as scum?

He was sort of in Overkill 2 but he was also weird and off but he obviously wanted Titus to draft him and if you compare Titus’ reaction to that in FL vs Hectic, it speaks volumes. Titus wasn’t even remotely defensive about wanting Hectic to draft her.

Is that a mini/open/large game?

[Pyro]

We can make a deal. Everyone after this day phase who can't read me must type "I solemnly swear I cannot read the Almight Emperor Flavor". Scum, you don't have to say this, you know I'm town, so youre exempt, you can vote me.

Fuck this noise. I already know where the shortcoming in my read on you would be if you’re town, so I refuse to engage is such a debasing piece of horseshit as this. You should also be able to comprehend what makes you so problematic here in that sort of situation.

Like, you have been given chance upon chance to shape the fuck up and yet you keep OMGUSing, pushing awful WIFOM angles, and avoiding any sort of admittance you MIGHT have fucked up. That’s not town play at this point, full stop.

Does this count?

They're not personal attacks though.

[Pyro]

I don't think clidd/Sarah are SvS, clidd's been pushing Sarah for a while now as the deepwolf which doesn't really seem smart when it's just the two of them left and clidd is in the PoE.

[Pyro]

Eh, I don't know. This effort is unnecessary right now. I'll figure it out after we get Sarah.

[Pyro]

- i also reviewed pyro and think he's town again. it just didn't sit well that whenever i opened the thread, i saw posts of pyro calling us lockscum unless we had mason/vig, DESPITE the fact that i know he can read me, and he reluctantly calls me town when asked, but chooses to call us scum anyway, but.................. this is my slot, so i recognise there's some bias. and fey and morning also thinking he's town gives me confidence so. also, i'm sorry, pyro; i was annoyed at this push, but it wasn't your fault. townblock?

lol
I'm cashing in all the times you've incorrectly read me (back in the day) to incorrectly read you just this once
I'll tell you about some other stuff I found weird coming specifically from you which made me paranoid after the game, but it is IRRELEVANT now
And yeah, let's townblock for the win, never even doubted you. I was just pretending to scumread you so you wouldn't be nightkilled

[Pyro]

Haven't read your deep Mariana trench solving yet, KidAmn. Will do so later

[Pyro]

Who was it?

[Pyro]

It still matters because scum may have thought the vig was even night, so it could tell us something

[Pyro]

I thought Nancy was most likely lying when she said that tbh, it didn't feel genuine

[Pyro]

I haven't read up on recent events but I will say: It kinda looked like clidd was setting up to push KidAmn tomorrow and positioning in a weird way. KidAmn's solving looked towny so the "this isn't anything that's unfakeable" and "your writing style makes it easy for you lie" does scare me.

On the other hand, KidAmn didn't feel like his reads or solving came with any obvious scum agenda.

UNVOTE: Sarah

I'll decide tomorrow

[Pyro]

*their

sorry, KidAmn

[Pyro]

Maybe olaf was just a genius

[Pyro]

see my consistent-across-multiple-games thoughts on how we should be acting. i spent the entirety of yesterday worrying if W&P was a mason and wondering if pushing them was going to get a mason killed because i wasn't sure if your reluctance to vote them when me and olaf and fey were vibing on the slot being scum and you were giving vibes that made me feel like they could be a mason so i didn't want to make it too obvious if you were trying to hint to back off

Mm, never mind, I think this is scum. There's no way Sarah thinks War and Peace could actually be a Mason after Nancy puts them in the vig pool end of day. Did anyone else think War and Peace had any chance of being a mason? I don't believe it

VOTE: Sarah

[Pyro]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not

[Pyro]

End of day 1 Nancy has War and Peace in a vigpool- they haven't claimed at this point. There is no way Nancy lets a hammer happen sending the game into night 1 with a mason in a 2 or 3 person vigpool who hasn't even claimed anything yet.

Sarah isn't stupid, that paranoia is definitely fake and an excuse to explain her War and Peace reluctance. I also think it's been fairly obvious they haven't been Mason with the way they're playing and how people have been talking about them (Nancy included) this game. I feel good about Sarah flipping scum now.

[Pyro]

Cool

[Pyro]

Join the MOVEMENT against Sarah

[Pyro]

You never explained musk's presence,

mitsuha

[Pyro]

at the risk of looking super scummy if this flips scum, can i just ask is this really a mech guilty though? like, the bus driver is definitely scum, but could they not have driven 2 townies?

And what about the rest of their play?

i think their play has been fine. at some points i.e the one where they were like "just execute me," feels good, even. the stuff sherlock said about toog also didn't look partnery, even though it's true that's not enough for a clear

It's not a mech guilty, but it's really likely for it to be scum due to mafia potentially trying to protect from the vig, along with not knowing dkkoba's role would give them the exact person they target and maybe not expecting them to target REK

I think they are worth voting without the information from the redirect

the vig part i agree with, but now that i think about it, i'm concerned about:
- bussing a town!toog with REK also bypasses any protection, cause there's no way toog gets protected
- with how scumread toog was, i could see him getting copped. and koba is a vanilla cop, right, so maybe scum didn't expect them to be told who they copped and wanted to fake guilty him by implying he lied about his vanilla

it's all just about the vig protection. i don't think this is "confscum"

~musk

Explain this

[Pyro]

Don't you dare impersonate me

-Mayuri

[Pyro]

End of day 1 Nancy has War and Peace in a vigpool- they haven't claimed at this point. There is no way Nancy lets a hammer happen sending the game into night 1 with a mason in a 2 or 3 person vigpool who hasn't even claimed anything yet.

Sarah isn't stupid, that paranoia is definitely fake and an excuse to explain her War and Peace reluctance. I also think it's been fairly obvious they haven't been Mason with the way they're playing and how people have been talking about them (Nancy included) this game. I feel good about Sarah flipping scum now.

I agree with PB, that I really think Krazy was fine with limming Clidd. I still think and everything I’ve read makes me think it’s Sarah/KidAmn. I just think if Kid is scum, he’s probably the bus driver.

Anyway, I’m now hard tr you. There’s certain things you’ve said recently that don’t make sense as scum, also you also look good according to VCA.

I can definitely see Titus picking Sarah and I can understand why Sarah would be unhappy with this game as a result of that. Sarah also didn’t seem to be too upset with Krazy pushing him, coincidentally neither did Gamma.

I really don’t understand why anyone is tr KidAmn. His I think Dunn RS makes absolutely no sense with Koba being the clear scum NK target. Why did both Krazy and W & P spend so much time hard defending Gamma almost as much as Krazy defending W & P.

But so long as both Dunn and Tweetie target Starcrossed to tonight, I’m okay with Sarah being flipped. Krazy made it a huge point to blast both Sadade and (God even knows why) 5uffering for toxicity but oddly enough expressed little concern about Gamma and Ircher felt the need to defend Gamma from Pyro.

Like re-ISO both W & P and S & W and tell me their interactions with Gamma don’t scream associative.

Awesome.

I still don't know about the last one honestly. With 3 flipped scum, it should be a lot easier to look through the thread for scum interactions and associatives so I'll do that tomorrow, and hopefully the town STOMP versus game tradition can continue

[Pyro]

KidAmn's solving looked towny so the "this isn't anything that's unfakeable" and "your writing style makes it easy for you lie" does scare me.

@Kid

His posts did not convince me. It's possible for scum!Kid imo, if any, to have made that.

It seemed that opinion was in the minority, and it also happens to be the best opinion for scum!you to take. That's what scared me.

[Pyro]

It's actually insane if there's 2 masons left somewhere lol, you've given them good cover at least from my perspective, Nancy (don't reply to this)

[Pyro]

6459 is one of the towniest posts clidd's made this game

[Pyro]

Don't question it

[Pyro]

Alright, locking in KidAmn for my guess for final scum

Read over some things and:
-Gamma positioning around BM wagon as scummy
-Gamma surface level scumreads on Italiano and Saudade were scummy
-Gamma reaction to wanting to be drafted was scummy
-2823

The only cons for Gamma being scum were his toxicity, but I think that was genuine rage regardless of his alignment, because it was on a kind of ungamerelated matter{?} - it was regarding the whole Noraa rep out thing

[Pyro]

Here's the difference between you and me I want everyone else to see this clear.

Gamma had no problem with me up until the moment I voted them

, and only based on confrontation has he done anything with the apparent mounting evidence. Rubber meets glue.

I had to actually think about why I wanted to vote Gamma and then took the time to explain myself. And I'm the one being called scum? Is it opposite day?

Gamma looks pretty bad in the whole 5uffering vs Gamma thing too. Maybe it is just this easy.

[Pyro]

6324 - KidAmn's scumread on Sarah is so much more concise and to the point than any of their other reads - might be answer keying/scum TMI.

[Pyro]

#3320-3376 in their ISO is a lot of quotes with not much content, #3321 notable for establishing Italiano "feels fake" but apart from that they don't commit to anything but Batsu and Fey as "locktown" and seemingly changing their opinion on Pyro half a dozen times within 3 posts

#3401 - distancing from Sherlock, perhaps? Also some Saudade[PB] shade.

#3736 - Fey wanting to recalibrate = good post; Gamma wanting to... catch up and telling people to avoid quickhammer is a bad post? Doesn't feel like a natural read. Shading Italiano and REK but in very open terms "bad post", "bad vote", "bad vibes, too friendly". Ditto #3746 - 5uffering's posting "[feels] like someone who's doing town work without town motivation." More "bad vibes". This feels like classical early game scum shading without anything concrete because building cases as scum in the early game is haaaaard, mom.

#3756 - "one of these flips scum minimum (Gamme/Italiano)" credits for consistency still trying to push my slot even now but with hindsight (and knowing what my role PM says) this sure looks like setting up bad chainlynches

#3758 - REALLY likes W&P's big pile of graphs that didn't really actually contribute much, distancing from Sherlock (and kind of from Titus?), all in the same post.

for post links

[Pyro]

Yeah, those reasons aren't even good. For example, take the reason given for 3401 up there. Sarah saying "bad shade of Pyro imo" to Sherlock is hardly distancing, there's barely anything there. Feels like KidAmn is searching for reasons here knowing Sarah is scum and going down.

[Pyro]

quoting this in full because *yikes*

#3790 feels like a continuation of the classical scum tell I touched on earlier - Sarah has locktown and townleans, but doesn't commit to grouping anyone else into scumleans, lockscum, null, etc. Combined with the lack of commitment in prior posting... yeah, I do not like this slot. I do not like it, Sam I Am.

Lots of cozying up to Nancy, "we're vibing", "stop bullying Nancy" etc.

blah blah lots of VT number spec, 0 interest in this

Think I touched on #5429 at the time but bringing up 3rd parties when we know none exist, no es bueno

In summary, don't like this slot, lots of empty posting, lack of commitment to SRs until the dagger is at their throat, naked buddying to the stump

[Pyro]

The third party reason is hilariously bad

Alright, I'm confident on Sarah flipping scum, feel okayish on KidAmn being the last one

FOR NOW

[Pyro]

Fey has died. They were a

1-shot Night Skip

.

[Pyro]

Also, the last scum is a bus driver -- Kid claims Even-Night Rolestopper. If we can confirm that to be the case, they are very unlikely to be the last scum, no? Why aren't we doing that? I can verify their role with ease.

Oh, that's a good point you know. Both of you target me tonight for example and we see if I get the message.

[Pyro]

Alright, so mechanically speaking, it's always wrong to launch KidAmn today. If he's scum, he's always guiltied tomorrow (so please save us some time and concede if that's the case).

[Pyro]

Wait, I guess they could just kill Morning but then they're killing a messenger over a mason/vig but eh, Morning's locktown anyway.

[Pyro]

That also reminds me that Morning is mechtown because she's confirmed to be a messenger and the last scum is a bus driver.

[Pyro]

Nancy, if there is SOMEHOW 2 masons + 1 vig + Morning alive, you should let us know because that's a mechanical victory, given there's only 3 possible scum and we have 3 launches in that scenario.

I for some reason doubt that's the case though.

[Pyro]

Ah, nice.

[Pyro]

Alright, so mechanically speaking, it's always wrong to launch KidAmn today. If he's scum, he's always guiltied tomorrow (so please save us some time and concede if that's the case).

Well what do you propose instead? I would prefer to not start limming from my townblock yet.

Hm hm hm, it's tough. clidd, Pink Ball, Dunny.

clidd had a rough start imo but he's looked townier and townier recently, although parts of his Sarah push looked a little too confident for me but I don't know if that's scum TMI or clidd's supreme confidence.

Pink Ball had a really town entrance in the way he was trying to cooperate with you, and his reaction at the start of day 3 after Sherlock flipped scum seemed genuine.

Dunny has felt towny all game.

I'll have to look into them.

[Pyro]

My one hang up about Dunny is that he didn't feel as annoyed this game. 2 versus games ago he was visibly irritated at pichu and Ydrasse's antics and he got mad at Noraa once or twice. There's been nothing of that sort this game.

[Pyro]

Might have something to do with Fey/your reads, could be worth looking into.

[Pyro]

I mean off the top of my head Fey had some clear clidd suspicions yesterday and preffered him over Sarah for a time.

[Pyro]

Alright my nulls. These reads might bleed into each other and may be a bit less specific.

Dunnstral

Dunn dropped to null for me due to circumstance. I was townreading them by their early pursuits but recent input feels a bit too scatterbrained. I have seen him call out to me in regards to their own reads once or twice, but I ignored it because I didn't see the purpose for this. Early impression made me believe they were a type of player who wasn't necessarily the loudest person in the room but always still had something to say. He's not really saying much recently so I don't know what he's thinking anymore.

Conclusion: Unsure. Wasn't townie enough in recent memory to deserve a lean.

Null.

SaraharaS

Can't say I'm reading your content. I usually glance over catch-ups because they're mostly self-referential. I've flicked through your thoughts however and have noted them, now I just need to see where they lead you. Nothing in particular stood out to me. Right now, it seems to be on Italiano. Don't have a further comment about that but you were scumreading me as well but I simply ignored it.

Conclusion: Waiting to see more.

Null.

SaraharaS seems really towny to me from recent content.

Also it's wild that you ignore me but say I have nothing to say and keep moving me down your reads for some reason

I can do better.

fuck yea
Papa Ball got this
Let's let him do some magic :3

PB, you, Sahara, Fey and to a lesser extent M & R and Ari have kept me from wanting to literally wanting to tear every single strand out from my fucking head.

For the record Nancy, there will be a point in this game where you'll have to determine who in this list is scum, because there's a big fat chance there's at least one. My money on Ari right now.
In other words: it's easy to have a deepwolf against you, and that's why that list of people you named probably has scum in it.

Well from that list: {Sarahara, Starcrossed, Red Eye Knights} would be the possible deepscum imo since PB is probtown and I think Fey is town as well and I am assuming M&R is us, so.

I think Sarahara looks pretty town.

Right................

---

I like the scum in the vts theory

VOTE: SaraharaS

This could go either way for me

Dunny, how did your read on Sarah change between the 2nd and 3rd quote? I don't see you state any reads on her in the intermission.

[Pyro]

And yes, I do think that if we eventually go to LyLo, those three players are going to be in it, and I'm scared about that 'cause I've been pushing Pyro since forever and I don't know if I'll be able to be fair and re evaluate at that point

I never comprehended your Battle Mage theory honestly

btw I never, ever kill Fey last night, at least not this early as the last scum alive. I don't think she was ever voting me this game.

[Pyro]

Pink Ball, can you actually go over your theory of why you thought the Battle Mage launch happened because he was sus of me? Can you highlight the posts or things that made you think that was the case?

[Pyro]

Counterpoint, the only options were myself and Fey and both of us are going to die before voting Pyro becomes an issue. Not that i'm suspecting Pyro currently, but yeah

Yeah, but you can confirm KidAmn as town instead of them being a free mislaunch which is honestly a pretty big blunder for scum to make here.

[Pyro]

(if KidAmn is town)

[Pyro]

Last time I say it: I'm townreading them both. I think scum is between KidAmn and clidd, most likely clidd because of balance, most likely KidAmn because of play. I'm JUST SAYING, that in case they aren't scum, then It'll be a complicated LyLo. I'm NOT SAYING I'm scumreading one of them at the time and I'll end thinking they're both town

I'm also here right now. I lean Dunny as scum over you though ftr

[Pyro]

It's interesting how Titus herself informed us of this instead of the last scum, well, that's probably because if the last scum informs us it's scum-indicative because they're more well informed about how scum works.

If Titus hadn't informed us... that's always beneficial to scum!KidAmn I think? Even if we realise tomorrow it makes KidAmn live today at the very least. grumble grumble dumb WIFOM I love it

[Pyro]

I still think KidAmn over clidd though

clidd, was it a conscious effort to change your playstyle after olaf made his case on you?

[Pyro]

how and why did scum!gamma claim even-night?

Could've just got lucky.

[Pyro]

I did some reading overnight and I'm pretty confident on who the last scum is, will make a CASE later. Let's not let this game go to LyLo.

[Pyro]

lol Kanna thought I was scum? It was destined, not a huge surprise there (no offense but it is tradition)

[Pyro]

I'll talk about any and all of the points you have against me later, Nancy/Morning

But seriously, I did a lot of rereading overnight after the flip and it came to me in a moment of clarity and everything made sense. I'm confident I can convince you all when I write my case

[Pyro]

(it's Dunny)

[Pyro]

Sigh, this would've been a lot easier had you not all decided to scumread me before I had a chance to post. Now it looks like I'm reacting to the reads and forcing a 1v1 when in reality I was sure on this read overnight

[Pyro]

grumble grumble

[Pyro]

Seriously though, Kanna... why must we always go through this spiral of paranoia. The Dark Waltz game I thought was the beginning of a new era, but alas

[Pyro]

The confidence at the end of your post especially

[Pyro]

Yeah

[Pyro]

Honestly, I would never talk about masons openly as scum, it looks very scummy on a surface level. I was seriously scumreading Starcrossed and thought if they were town, it was exactly as a mason- Pooky and Kanna were simply not talking to Nancy enough in thread and it meant they were scum or a Mason. I thought scum though which is why I kept talking about it and honestly just wanted a claim because I was like 70/30 on it

What else... oh, after the vig claim, I was sure Starcrossed was a mason because there wasn't enough room for 2 masons + a vig being alive, and it didn't explain why they weren't talking to Nancy in-thread. I played along with the vig claim though

[Pyro]

(I'm playing Ticket to Ride so haven't read everything yet btw)

[Pyro]

lol I just opened your message

@Starcrossed batshit bat around right off the bat batty tab cat rat eat

[Pyro]

Alright, I just ask you all be patient. I'm feeling slightly demoralised right now but it'll pass and I'm sure I'll get the motivation to write it eventually (also I'm somewhat busy tonight)

I was originally gonna write the case overnight but was too lazy to ask for a notes PT and then just thought whatever, it'll be fine to make it tomorrow

Let me see what you had a problem with my thoughts on KidAmn, Morning

[Pyro]

Pyro missing how my plan to clear Kid was faulty and also hand-waving the "Even-night" problem are both kind of odd. Of course, I agree the Fey kill was quite agiven for scum to make.

I suppose if you want to explain the bussing [disclaimer: not entirely sure but i am under the impression Pyro bussed at least War and Peace hard] -- the bus driver is the scumteam's most important member, after all. Perhaps it wasn't by chance.

I am inclined to agree with the deceased mason off the bat here, but we'll see what happens

I wasn't aware whether scum were multitasking or not, 2 versus games ago they were, last one they weren't

I looked through the rules and it didn't seem to be stated whether or not they were, so your plan would've cleared KidAmn if they weren't (which I was hoping for). It then got clarified they were though and Alisae publicly told us.

Regarding the even-night thing: Whenever you as scum claim something, you have the option to add a odd/even3night modifier to it. I know I myself and others have tacked on one of those when fakeclaiming as scum, and in many of those instances, the modifier itself doesn't have anything to do with the setup or playing around 1 specific role, it just soemthing to nerf the role's power level/a decision to balance it and make it look realistic by scum

So, although it would be an interesting coincidence if Dunny was actually an odd night doc after KidAmn claimed even night Rolestopper, it's entirely possible scum!KidAmn just got lucky that they happened to claim even night and not odd night, and that it lined up with Dunny's claim

It'd be somewhat lucky and coincidental, but they happen. And I wasn't confident regardless of flip yesterday btw, you can probably tell from my play that I didn't REALLY believe in anyone flipping scum, but just thought KidAmn was our best bet

I've felt

confident

on scum at 2 points during this game; once on War and Peace which made me case them until Nancy would listen to me and get them out. And secondly on Sarah, after she claimed to have thought War and Peace may have been a mason, which I absolutely did not believe and expressed many times, but that one required less convincing since most people seemed sold

I am now as confident on Dunny being scum as I was in either of those two instances

[Pyro]

Kanna's post actually infuriates me and I'm not even sure why, maybe it's the confidence

To quickly address the points:
1) Mason hunting theory is ridiculous. You were absolutely mason or scum to me very early on, and if I were scum, I would've killed you very early on. I thought you were scum or mason from lack of motivation to post in-thread and I was leaning scum (partly because of a tinfoil reason I can't talk about). My scumgame is not one where I openwolf and hunt for masons openly. I play it safe and aim to look towny, and appearing to hunt for masons is very scummy on a surface level

5) Gonna go to this point next just to emphasize on how contradictory it is with 1). I've played "conventionally" and done nothing to stick my neck out, but I've also been openly mason hunting at the same time? And pushing and casing people is not conventional/safe, I've cased several people this game whenever I've been feeling it (including clidd, War and Peace, Sarah)

I've explained 2 and 4

Regarding 3) This is just a "you disagree with me on a read so you're scum"
clidd's early playstyle was evey reminiscent of his scumplay in Ultimate Conspiracy. Strong takes and opinions, but not much reasoning - that's why I cased him. Since then, his play has improved with more solving and yesterday, I wasn't sure who scum was because I didn't believe in anyone being scum. clidd was in the PoE but eh basically

Finally, regarding the Fey kill: I absolutely, absolutely do not kill Fey

first

out of the Morning/Starcrossed/Fey pool of conftown, and you can theorize all you want that it technically doesn't matter when it comes done to final 3, but I never ever make that kill first.

Having Fey alive in final 7 and final 5 when I'm scum and she's been screaming I'm town all game is so incredibly valuable, and no amount of WIFOM would make me make that kill going into final 7. From your perspective, it's a possibility scum!Pyro does it for WIFOM - but I'm just being honest with you, I never actually do. I don't value WIFOM very highly in practice, and usually opt to make the logical kills which benefit me most in gamestate

(still love you btw, Kanna <3)

[Pyro]

Anyway:

clidd is town because Sarah was seriously trying to push for him to be killed over her in final 9, ot would essentially be scum TMIing on her partner if clidd was scum regarding the whole Krazy push reasoning, and I believe Sarah is smarter than that

Additionally, I bothered to look back and Krazy was onboard and encouraging killing clidd *after* Nancy had in the launch pool and was voting him

Finally, his play yesterday really seemed to hinge on the game ending with KidAmn's death - I think he genuinely believed in it and it doesn't feel like he's playing with a plan in mind for endgame

Pink Ball;
Sarah stated that he was town for a "trust tell level replace out from Saudade" and I think scum!Sarah actually believes in that and it's TMIing him town.
His interactions with Nancy upon replacing in were very genuine and appeared in good faith, and his tone has been excellent

Morning Tweet;
Bats are evil, this could be the serial killer but this is a problem for final 3

Dunny;
The last wolf! I don't want to list the reasons because I don't want Dunny to try and refute them while they're in lazy bullet point form

I'll get to it, dw

[Pyro]

Okay, I feel better

See you all later

[Pyro]

I'm saying this more for Pyro's benefit, honestly! I don't want him to get scumread in the game I really, really think he's town.

I'm saying this more for Pyro's benefit, honestly! I don't want him to get scumread in the game I really, really think he's town.

I'm saying this more for Pyro's benefit, honestly! I don't want him to get scumread in the game I really, really think he's town.

I'm saying this more for Pyro's benefit, honestly! I don't want him to get scumread in the game I really, really think he's town.

[Pyro]

I feel rather confident on Pyro being town, we had the same reads for the most part save for some variances. Paranoia there should not be tolerated, really.

[Pyro]

One last thing:

Fey had the exact same read on Starcrossed and was actually the one that got them to claim. Please don't be selective about your evidence that Fey is doing it while town but it makes me scum. Additionally, it's not me piggybacking off her read either - I was the first to suspect and push Starcrossed.

Nancy, please listen to Fey when she drilled into you over and over again that I was town. She's genuinely never been more sure I'm town in any other game (you can check)

[Pyro]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Pyro]

Why hello there, clidd

[Pyro]

@Nancy: Thank you for reconsidering and finding that vanilla cop thing!

[Pyro]

But if Dunn is not scum, tomorrow's LyLo, and I'm pretty sure it's gonna be me deciding between clidd and Pyro and huh boy

Or we win by launching Dunny today

I'll start building this monstrosity shortly

[Pyro]

clidd, do you still drink coffee while winding down to do some solving? I miss your old mentions of that.

(I'm doing it now as we speak)

[Pyro]

WHERE IS EVERYONE

I REQUIRE GOOD COMPANY, IMMEDIATELY

[Pyro]

I apologise for shouting

[Pyro]

[Pyro]

The case has been written and it

only

took me an hour. Could be worse.

[Pyro]

[Pyro]

[Pyro]

Okay, first things first: The case isn't on Dunnstral. It's on Morning Tweet. I initially stated it was on Dunnstral for reactions from the table, and they've been relatively useful. It's the bat though, she's played a really damn good game and the mech has been applied perfectly to make her look conftown, but there's an obvious explanation for why she's the last scum and damn, Morning, you almost got away with it. But not with PYRO on the case.

Spoiler: here's the case

pranked

[Pyro]

Anyway, let me know when you wanna see it. I'm not presenting to an empty table smh

[Pyro]

Ah, I feel much more at ease now

[Pyro]

@Nancy: Thank you for reconsidering and finding that vanilla cop thing!

I was initially convinced it was you but yeah, I’m like a dog with a bone, if evidence exsts, bank on I’ll be the one who probably stumbles on it.

While I do think PB’s point is obviously valid, it’s extremely obvious that Krazy wanted to be rolestopped. He also wanted PB vanilla copped but was extremely insistent on having Morty and Rick be. so while it’s obviously possible that you self-targeted with M & R, Krazy arguing so hard for M & R to be vanilla copped makes me think it’s obvious possible but is it likely? Krazy obviously was pushing for a slot he wanted dead vanilla copped, so why bother with any of it because of bus driver?

I’m sure that pretty much the last thing scum wanted N2 was to show their bus driver. I still don’t understand why Koba got notified they targeted Toog as opposed to just getting a straight up vt result though.

Also, I claimed VT while knowing there was a vanilla cop, and they easily could've checked me any of the nights. That's pretty stupid to do as a bus driver.

[Pyro]

Anyway, let me know when you wanna see it. I'm not presenting to an empty table smh

Your case is still about Dunn and Morning was a joke or just the explanation of your case on Morning was a joke but are you still going to present a case about scum!Morning?

It's about Dunny, Morning is a bus driver at heart, but not in this game.

[Pyro]

Sounds good, although I'm semi-paranoid about you.

Not because you're scummy or something like that, but because of the quality of your scumgame + for what Kanna said.

But if you're town, I should be able to see that today.

I'll take it as a compliment <3

[Pyro]

Anyway, let me know when you wanna see it. I'm not presenting to an empty table smh

Your case is still about Dunn and Morning was a joke or just the explanation of your case on Morning was a joke but are you still going to present a case about scum!Morning?

It's about Dunny, Morning is a bus driver at heart, but not in this game.

But seriously wtf was that even about? She’d have to be double stacked to be bus driver in this game.

Have you seen Morning drive a bus irl? She's completely insane with the drifts and wheelies she pulls off. It's hard to believe until you actually see it

[Pyro]

A comprehensive guide on why Dunnstral is scum

SMITHING WITH GUNS

I'm an odd-night doctor

Night 1 was skipped

Night 3 I was on Starcrossed

I didn't get any kind of notification that I was redirected

Because of my role I thought that Kidamn's claim was very believable (it was claimed before the rolecop could do anything, too)

I argued against mafia having a doctor, but my own role and the vanilla cop claim made me think the gunsmith claim was more believable as well

Dunny claims odd-night doc in this post, stating that his own role and the vanilla cop claims made the gunsmith claim

more

believable.

I immediately question him on this - a gunsmith is a strong role, and to believe an odd night doc + even night rolestopper exist to create a follow the cop scenario to protect the gunsmith is very dubious. It's so much town power if you account for those 3 roles + the vanilla cop + the vig + the night skip + 2 or 3 masons. It's absolutely ridiculous from a balance standpoint. Remember, people were doubting War and Peace's claim because they thought a gunsmith + just the even night rolestopper may have been too dangerous of a combo, and Dunny has this information about his own role, and it makes him believe the gunsmith

more

, and not less.

There's a very simple explanation for why Dunny didn't think of how this was far, far too much power for town to have - and it's because he's scum with War and Peace.

I immediately question him on this, doubting how he could believe what he did:

you thought both protectives with an ungated gunsmith made the gunsmith claim more believable?
you didn't think that was too much power?
also what do you mean the vanilla cop claim made you think the gunsmith was more believable as well?

Vanilla cop carries a gun. i.e. false guilty
Doctor is a role that never has a gun, which is why I thought gunsmith felt believeable (even though I'm town and don't have a gun, it made sense to me that I'd be made to look suspicious for being doctor with a gs in the game)

I argued against mafia having a doctor, but my own role and the vanilla cop claim made me think the gunsmith claim was more believable as well

this makes no sense to me Dunny
you really need to explain why you thought two protectives that can cover all nights made you think the gunsmith was MORE believable and not less

Roleblockers, strongmans. And especially the day vig flipped. I think that was after the claim though, but I was thinking about that

He responds by saying scum could have a roleblocker/strongman. Scum

could

have these things, but even with them, town have far too much power at their disposal. I eventually pushed out War and Peace using this same logic. I'm very confident that town!Dunny does not see all this power and think it makes sense because scum

could

have certain roles, and because a gunsmith can get a false guilty on a vanilla cop, and a false inno on a doc, and ignore the glaring reasoning about how it creates a follow the cop scenario and how it's far too much power.

WAR BUT ULTIMATELY PEACE

This is all before any gunsmith claims:

97 - Dunny votes for WP
379 - WP have 3 votes and Dunny goes to vanity vote Sherlock instead (this is safe because they aren't a realistic wagon by any means right now)
404 - VC
486 - WP have received 2 more votes and are now at 4 with no real counter, Dunny moves back to vote them
535 - VC
657 - VC
770 - Dunny unvotes WP
1961 - WP are his SECOND TOP scumread

I'm not even going to try and assign an exact scum motivation behind this behaviour, but one thing is for sure, it's not natural and normal. Dunny is constantly shifting on and off the War and Peace wagon, and every single one of the votes are naked without any reasoning attached. This is scum!Dunny positioning himself on/off the wagon based on whether he wants to bus, and unvoting when he thinks they have a chance of survival. The thing that makes absolutely no sense with this uncertain behavior, however, is the fact that War and Peace have been a

solid

scumread for Dunny, as evidence by his readlist in the final post. This is scum behaving around a partner getting wagoned.

THE SHIP SAILS

During day 3, we're finally making this wagon on War and Peace go through. I've been pushing for them all game and we're finally making it happen. Where is Dunny while this happens?
4880 5595 - Dunny clearly still thinks War and Peace are scummy during this time, and has had that opinion for most of the game, but his actions simply do not match his words, and he remains stubbornly voting Toogeloo for the entire phase. This by itself isn't sooo bad, he may just be very confident Toogeloo is scum, however, what is bad is the fact he does not comment on any of the arguments made on War and Peace being scum even

once

.

No mention of how he still thinks their claim makes them town because of him being a doc, no mention that he thinks they might be scum because of this or that... nothing. It's classical scum behaviour around a partner.

SORROWS OF SARAH

4106 - Dunny townreads Sarah
4364 - Dunny townreads Sarah
6177 - Dunny votes for Sarah when she's essentially decided to be the launch

Once again, there's no progression from Dunny townreading Sarah to eventually voting for her. He claims later that he liked the cases put against her in 6303, but again, the fact he doesn't care to comment on the cases

while

they're being made, whether with agreement or disagreement, is incredibly scum-indicative. He's seeing whether the cases against her will stick or not and staying out of it completely. Also, it's funny that the reason we thought Sarah was scum (bad progression on War and Peace - from townreading them to randomly having them in PoE) is the exact same thing Dunny is doing to Sarah here. Pretty good scumtell, huh?

THE WAR THAT KEEPS ON GIVING

VOTE: Dunnstral
War and Peace's push onto him is really weird if he's town and does them no favours because it was an unpopular push
BUT if he's scum then maybe the logic they were using makes sense to them and they thought it'd make them look towny because they're technically correct
also they get some distancing in

War and Peace's push onto Dunny in 5519 really is strange if Dunny is town. Dunny at that point is close to UTR, and a very unpopular push for scum to make. Does scum!War really opt to push a townie like that who will only make them look worse? Absolutely not. Does scum!War opt to push a

partner

which they can distance from and that they actually believe the reasoning for? Absolutely.

SOMETHING SMELLS FISHY

1008 1092 6300

There were more instances of this but every time Dunny posted something like this, it just felt off and gave me pocketing vibes. I've felt that way towards Dunny all game - something about his tone is off and different from his play in Pooky v Flava. In that game, he was visibly irritated and almost antagonistic, getting annoyed at Noraa, as well as pichu and Ydrasse for their silly antics. There has been none of that this game, and his tone is night and day.

RETURN OF THE FELLOWSHIP

That concludes things. I want to thank my keyboard for allowing me this amazing opportunity, and I want to thank Dunny for being a good deepwolf for giving us this challenge at the end. Games aren't always fun being townstomps, so I appreciate the work you've put in, my friend.

[Pyro]

Why Pyro can't be scum:
-Would have had to hard bus War and Peace and caused them to be launched
-Would have had to bus Sarah
-Had Sherlock suggest vanilla cop be locked to checking Pyro
-Claimed VT with a known vanilla cop around, and not nightkill that vanilla cop for several nights

Why Dunny can't be scum:
-???

[Pyro]

associations that the most powerful scum role would avoid having;

This is assuming Dunny would play perfectly and simply "avoid" having bad associations. He's scum, and scum lie and look scummy, and I've outlined the exact reasons why. It's on War and Peace's side too.

[Pyro]

Ftr, I'd feel a lot better about this game if you didn't have to randomly mislaunch me before launching Dunny the next day. The win would feel a lot more rewarding for me if we could just get him today. It's why I have a vested interest in flipping him today, even though I hope(?) you guys would flip Dunny and sheep deadtown!me the next day.

[Pyro]

Batsunami
Fey
Clidd
Morty and Rick
Red Eye Knights
Toogeloo
ItalianoVD
Saudade
Gamma Emerald
Starcrossed

SaraharaS
Dunnstral
Sherlock and Watson

5uffering

War and Peace

5uffering - My read on him depends a lot on his main which is a little frustrating
Starcrossed - Kanna is towny and Pooky is scummy
Dunnstral - Takes are fine, but the shift in tone is bothering me. I'm used to him being harsher as town

[Pyro]

Pink Ball, you have to jump over all these hurdles to think I'm scum. Why didn't I just claim any old PR while knowing there was a vanilla cop around as the bus driver? Why did I push War and Peace out when Nancy was against it and was going for Toogeloo that day? Why did Sherlock ask me to be vanilla copped?

I understand you have a gut or soulread, but please look at all of the things you have to make explanations for to consider me scum, and apply occam's razor with deadly force.

On the other hand, we have Dunny, who I have very clearly outlined is scum and why with my case. I truly believe all of those reasons are really good and I'm very confident on him being the final scum.

[Pyro]

A comprehensive guide on why Dunnstral is scum

SMITHING WITH GUNS

I'm an odd-night doctor

Night 1 was skipped

Night 3 I was on Starcrossed

I didn't get any kind of notification that I was redirected

Because of my role I thought that Kidamn's claim was very believable (it was claimed before the rolecop could do anything, too)

I argued against mafia having a doctor, but my own role and the vanilla cop claim made me think the gunsmith claim was more believable as well

Dunny claims odd-night doc in this post, stating that his own role and the vanilla cop claims made the gunsmith claim

more

believable.

I immediately question him on this - a gunsmith is a strong role, and to believe an odd night doc + even night rolestopper exist to create a follow the cop scenario to protect the gunsmith is very dubious. It's so much town power if you account for those 3 roles + the vanilla cop + the vig + the night skip + 2 or 3 masons. It's absolutely ridiculous from a balance standpoint. Remember, people were doubting War and Peace's claim because they thought a gunsmith + just the even night rolestopper may have been too dangerous of a combo, and Dunny has this information about his own role, and it makes him believe the gunsmith

more

, and not less.

There's a very simple explanation for why Dunny didn't think of how this was far, far too much power for town to have - and it's because he's scum with War and Peace.

I immediately question him on this, doubting how he could believe what he did:

you thought both protectives with an ungated gunsmith made the gunsmith claim more believable?
you didn't think that was too much power?
also what do you mean the vanilla cop claim made you think the gunsmith was more believable as well?

Vanilla cop carries a gun. i.e. false guilty
Doctor is a role that never has a gun, which is why I thought gunsmith felt believeable (even though I'm town and don't have a gun, it made sense to me that I'd be made to look suspicious for being doctor with a gs in the game)

I argued against mafia having a doctor, but my own role and the vanilla cop claim made me think the gunsmith claim was more believable as well

this makes no sense to me Dunny
you really need to explain why you thought two protectives that can cover all nights made you think the gunsmith was MORE believable and not less

Roleblockers, strongmans. And especially the day vig flipped. I think that was after the claim though, but I was thinking about that

He responds by saying scum could have a roleblocker/strongman. Scum

could

have these things, but even with them, town have far too much power at their disposal. I eventually pushed out War and Peace using this same logic. I'm very confident that town!Dunny does not see all this power and think it makes sense because scum

could

have certain roles, and because a gunsmith can get a false guilty on a vanilla cop, and a false inno on a doc, and ignore the glaring reasoning about how it creates a follow the cop scenario and how it's far too much power.

WAR BUT ULTIMATELY PEACE

This is all before any gunsmith claims:

97 - Dunny votes for WP
379 - WP have 3 votes and Dunny goes to vanity vote Sherlock instead (this is safe because they aren't a realistic wagon by any means right now)
404 - VC
486 - WP have received 2 more votes and are now at 4 with no real counter, Dunny moves back to vote them
535 - VC
657 - VC
770 - Dunny unvotes WP
1961 - WP are his SECOND TOP scumread

I'm not even going to try and assign an exact scum motivation behind this behaviour, but one thing is for sure, it's not natural and normal. Dunny is constantly shifting on and off the War and Peace wagon, and every single one of the votes are naked without any reasoning attached. This is scum!Dunny positioning himself on/off the wagon based on whether he wants to bus, and unvoting when he thinks they have a chance of survival. The thing that makes absolutely no sense with this uncertain behavior, however, is the fact that War and Peace have been a

solid

scumread for Dunny, as evidence by his readlist in the final post. This is scum behaving around a partner getting wagoned.

THE SHIP SAILS

During day 3, we're finally making this wagon on War and Peace go through. I've been pushing for them all game and we're finally making it happen. Where is Dunny while this happens?
4880 5595 - Dunny clearly still thinks War and Peace are scummy during this time, and has had that opinion for most of the game, but his actions simply do not match his words, and he remains stubbornly voting Toogeloo for the entire phase. This by itself isn't sooo bad, he may just be very confident Toogeloo is scum, however, what is bad is the fact he does not comment on any of the arguments made on War and Peace being scum even

once

.

No mention of how he still thinks their claim makes them town because of him being a doc, no mention that he thinks they might be scum because of this or that... nothing. It's classical scum behaviour around a partner.

SORROWS OF SARAH

4106 - Dunny townreads Sarah
4364 - Dunny townreads Sarah
6177 - Dunny votes for Sarah when she's essentially decided to be the launch

Once again, there's no progression from Dunny townreading Sarah to eventually voting for her. He claims later that he liked the cases put against her in 6303, but again, the fact he doesn't care to comment on the cases

while

they're being made, whether with agreement or disagreement, is incredibly scum-indicative. He's seeing whether the cases against her will stick or not and staying out of it completely. Also, it's funny that the reason we thought Sarah was scum (bad progression on War and Peace - from townreading them to randomly having them in PoE) is the exact same thing Dunny is doing to Sarah here. Pretty good scumtell, huh?

THE WAR THAT KEEPS ON GIVING

VOTE: Dunnstral
War and Peace's push onto him is really weird if he's town and does them no favours because it was an unpopular push
BUT if he's scum then maybe the logic they were using makes sense to them and they thought it'd make them look towny because they're technically correct
also they get some distancing in

War and Peace's push onto Dunny in 5519 really is strange if Dunny is town. Dunny at that point is close to UTR, and a very unpopular push for scum to make. Does scum!War really opt to push a townie like that who will only make them look worse? Absolutely not. Does scum!War opt to push a

partner

which they can distance from and that they actually believe the reasoning for? Absolutely.

SOMETHING SMELLS FISHY

1008 1092 6300

There were more instances of this but every time Dunny posted something like this, it just felt off and gave me pocketing vibes. I've felt that way towards Dunny all game - something about his tone is off and different from his play in Pooky v Flava. In that game, he was visibly irritated and almost antagonistic, getting annoyed at Noraa, as well as pichu and Ydrasse for their silly antics. There has been none of that this game, and his tone is night and day.

RETURN OF THE FELLOWSHIP

That concludes things. I want to thank my keyboard for allowing me this amazing opportunity, and I want to thank Dunny for being a good deepwolf for giving us this challenge at the end. Games aren't always fun being townstomps, so I appreciate the work you've put in, my friend.

[Pyro]

I gave Dunny's agenda...

For example:
He was townreading Sarah and wanted to bloc with her. When she was being pushed, he stayed out of it to see where people would land, and then only decided to bus her with no prior progression after it was clear she was going down. The agenda is that he changed his townread to a scumread when she was obviously going to die, and did not try and argue with people when she was being scumread because it would make him look aligned with her.

I could do this with all of the points, but I thought they were implied in all of my arguments.

I'm exhausted right now, played too much mafia today, so I'm checking out.

[Pyro]

@Nancy, @Morning, and @clidd:

Please let me know your thoughts. After making that case, I feel better about Dunny being scum than I've felt about any other scumread I've had this game.

[Pyro]

That's cool, whether we kill Dunny by virtue of you guys townreading me, or scumreading him, it works either way!

And Morning, you really were spot on with that early assessment you had of me, where you made me realise something that was missing in my scumgame.

[Pyro]

Does anyone know how much confidence each individual head of Batsunami could fake on a read like this, or how much emotion they could fake regarding being angry for people not biting?

In theory this feels towny to me and I think they do err towards town but something right now is pinging me about this, I think it is how they’re strong arming everyone and then saying they won’t get flipped? Even if Battle Mage is town. It is a LOT of confidence and I’m unsure if either of these players are ever like this...

Haha I never have confidence on the first 2-3 days, except for on some of my townreads which are always my main goal to get during this time. in that respect, Tsunami and I are polar opposites

I do not believe I've seen this from scum!Noraa, except perhaps in a game I modded where she and a scumpartner theatered confident SRs on each other for a while D1. Even there i dont believe they were calling for quick elims on each other though.

May as well bring the thread in on this, Noraa and I have opposite takes on Pyro at the moment. hopefully she's shared most of hers so i'll just focus on what ive been saying

Pyro halting the momentum on his own wagon (War and Peace) or at least shifting from it in order to investigate Starcrossed for a supposed ellitell appears town to me. It comes across as a thought he genuinely had and feels is important enough to mention and confident enough to push -- whereas I struggle to find a decent incentive for scum Pyro to do this. Especially cause ellitells are kind of unsavoury but definitely could feel accurate to the user. I wondered if this is a purposeful distraction to a scum wagon but that just doesnt make much sense when he's cutting off his own wagon really (this was before BM)

^This is fine, but something I think I can fake as scum without too much worry.

The other thing i noticed was Pyro going for the full solve including one of his own townleans (without even going over the reasoning until a few posts later). i feel it betrays he's thinking pretty deeply about his reads, certainly more than surface-level takes on each individual player. Pyro definitely has does this in the past, even successfully calling out lots of scum this way, so it doesnt surprise me to see it

^This is a really good reason and made me realize I don't really do this as scum. Much appreciated for the intel.

Not convinced yet although Pyro does come off pretty fluid this game, very active, he does not like scum as much as town. i dont have a lot of experience with him as scum although this does match my town expectations

^Oh, and this is generally a towntell for me. The WIM does come to me easier as town, but it's not a surefire tell.

~Bat

This one

[Pyro]

Also, I feel bad for getting irritated and apologies for that, mitsuha. I know you're cheering for me behind the scenes and the comms sabotage was just a fluke

[Pyro]

lol dw, it was just my avatar that fooled you in Trust Fall. I'm still gonna switch to a waluigi one next time I roll scum against you

[Pyro]

Also, I feel bad for getting irritated and apologies for that, mitsuha. I know you're cheering for me behind the scenes and the comms sabotage was just a fluke

“comms sabotage”????

Yeah, scum probably sabotaged her computer irl and made her see scummy posts of mine that didn't exist. Hats off to Titus for the creative use

[Pyro]

lol dw, it was just my avatar that fooled you in Trust Fall. I'm still gonna switch to a waluigi one next time I roll scum against you

No, it was your correct read on me plus I also wrongly tr Pooky for ironically the exact same reasons you claimed to.

I thought those were pretty decent reasons at the time

[Pyro]

Well... I can't be perfect at reading her every game! But for real, I wouldn't openly mason hunt as scum, it looks really scummy and I would think you specifically would think it looks really scummy as well, Nancy.

[Pyro]

I really really want us to win this. I don’t think I’ve ever put this much effort into any game ever.

Let's launch Dunny and we do!

[Pyro]

Well... I can't be perfect at reading her every game! But for real, I wouldn't openly mason hunt as scum, it looks really scummy and I would think you specifically would think it looks really scummy as well, Nancy.

Well, that’s why I initially wanted to lim you but I don’t like how passive Dunn is being. Town!him I think would be pretty annoyed about now, yet he seems to have no reaction.

Yeah, his tone and the way he's acting this game is clearly different to his town game. samantha was right when she said he has PASSION in his towngame, and there's none of that here.

[Pyro]

[Pyro]

Pink Ball Pink Ball Pink Ball...

You can't apply a blanket statement like that when we're talking about Dunny

specifically

. We just talked about how Dunny has more passion as town, and would find this push quite annoying if he were town. Him remaining quiet and lurking it out is scum-indicative for him.

[Pyro]

Sorry, I don't mean to poke fun at you. I think you handwaiving my case with a single line and then saying you would decide on the elimination today has sent me into a spiral of floof.

[Pyro]

Your case relies too much in two factors: associations that the most powerful scum role would avoid having; and your own charisma.

I'll make a case on both of you and decide who we are eliminating today.

SPIRAL OF FLOOOOOOOOOOOOF

I need to listen to Snowy again

[Pyro]

[Pyro]

Evil floof

[Pyro]

It basically is just pride. I want to win the game without being mislaunched, and that's the main reason. My crops are gonna die if they wither and I can't water them you know?

[Pyro]

@Pyro do something to prove to PB you’re town, thanks.

Uh, tough ask lol
I've been trying all day

@Pink Ball: Harness the spirit of Cappy through you, stare directly into my SOUL. Do you see a pure hat wearing self-imposing post restrictor, or some goon?

[Pyro]

Trust in the heart of the cards

[Pyro]

I don't think most bus drivers carry a trusty revolver for special occasions

[Pyro]

Okay, okay, I appreciate the conflict to give the dead and spectators some entertainment, since Dunny seems to be out of it

[Pyro]

Isn't the scum stump confirmed to just be a stump and have no powers?

[Pyro]

Isn't the scum stump confirmed to just be a stump and have no powers?

@Alisae: Is Titus capable of having powers of her own?

[Pyro]

That was a public mechanic that was special to that game (the hugs that pull players towards them in the list)

[Pyro]

Nancy making Titus dig her own grave as we speak

[Pyro]

That's a good point though; it was a really flimsy reason for Sherlock to townread Dunny for, simply because he was voting for him and Sherlock WIFOMed "oh, he wouldn't scumread me as scum again"

It's an easy way to townread a partner. Oh, ALSO, Sherlock has like this policy almost where he tends to OMGUS even if he doesn't believe in it for gamestate reasons. The fact he didn't to Dunny is also very telling

[Pyro]

Game ends today when we launch you, my Dunny

What do you think of my push on you?

[Pyro]

The case against me is what other people have done instead of what I have done

Not at all?

Parts of it are, sure, but not your read and progression on Sarah, and your read on and progression on War and Peace, and your reaction and believing their gunsmith claim. And your pocketing style posts.

[Pyro]

6970 - Infact, the "THE WAR THAT KEEPS ON GIVING" section is the only part where I talk about what someone else has done and not what Dunny himself has done.

Not sure how Dunny gets that impression of the case at all as town.

[Pyro]

If I were scum I'd be jumping at the pyro case here

You always die tomorrow if you do that and force a 1v1 (assuming you win it)

[Pyro]

I mean, you can claim that, but it means nothing unless you show us the specifics of what you mean and actually dismantle it

[Pyro]

Deal

[Pyro]

Let's win the game!!!!!!!!

[Pyro]

I'm excited, I have the fireworks ready to go

[Pyro]

I want to be a mason eventually for one of these games, it sounds a lot less stressful lol

[Pyro]

aight

[Pyro]

It's just far more likely the scum bus driver doesn't claim VT in that scenario, and just claims ANY other PR. Dunny in this case has opted for odd night doc, to match with KidAmn's already claimed even night Rolestopper

[Pyro]

Bus driver can self target, so it's safe for them to claim vanilla. Mafia didn't know that the vanilla cop would get the name of the person they investigated.

That's not safe. By claiming vanilla, they're restricting themselves to drive themselves each night to not be caught by the vanilla cop. If they did that for whatever reason, the vanilla cop would die earlier than they did.

And alternatively, the bus driver could just claim anything that wasn't vanilla, and then they don't have to worry about being caught or driving themselves (which is what you did).

[Pyro]

Pyro are you absolutely sure you want to do this? You're not convincing me tomorrow, you're just postponing the inevitable, just borrowing time.

100%

The effort wouldn't be worth it here for me as scum.

Dunny's recognised that fact and given up as a result - he has no motivation left to case or argue clidd as scum despite knowing that from his PoV this game would be a loss if he gets mislaunched today and I tomorrow. Does town!Dunny really resign to the loss so easily?

Nope, it's scum!Dunny recognising he'd have to effort a lot to dig his way out of this, and so he's resigned himself to his fate.

[Pyro]

If we're going to elim me today, fine, but I want to talk about clidd vs pyro today and not in final 3

These were very empty words

[Pyro]

Awesome

If Morning's onboard we can wrap this game up

[Pyro]

Dw, I realised you were town overnight as well, should've trusted her read earlier on that. Was always gonna push for Dunny today.

[Pyro]

My loving villagers. We see the sails of the Totus approaching. We hear the Dunny guns over the water. Soon now, we will meet them face-to-face. I am resolved, in the midst and heat of the battle, to live or die amongst you all. While we stand together no invader shall pass. Let them come with the armies of bus drivers; they will not pass! And when this day of battle is ended, we meet again in post-game or on the field of victory.

[Pyro]

I'm very intrigued. What's the towntell?

[Pyro]

[Pyro]

I was townreading you after your Dunn case, Pyro, but I needed to be sure in case it was clidd and I had to choose in LyLo. Good job not only becoming obvtown so close to LyLo, but also being right before even getting there.

Happpy for you Nancy, and for being able to contribute to this win!

Your paranoia for the worst case was understandable, I'm happy we got there at the end

Good group effort from town at the end there

[Pyro]

Wait, AaronFuckingFrost was in this game?

[Pyro]

ah well, people saw!

gg everyone!

Were you Morty or Rick?

[Pyro]

Knew it