Warehouse 13: The Mafia Game (Game Over)

[Prism]

Hi bork, you should have received a flavor claim from me overnight. Please confirm, and do with it what you will.

[Prism]

VOTE: Prism

[Prism]

I'm wondering if the person who received the other artifact should claim it though.

Two issues with this.

1) Scum pick who gets it and likely kept it.
2) Getting an artifact last night does not mean it came from scum. Artifacts were eligible for N0 pass.

[Prism]

And going further I'm willing to publicly claim to have passed my artifact N0 in order to flavor claim to Bork, who was selected at random after removing several players from the list at my discretion.

[Prism]

I don't want to discuss any mechanical aspects of the artifact at this time, but I'm not the only one you can ask.

[Prism]

Not necessarily true re: always pro town.

For Tammy, you think flavor claiming before Day 1 even starts, is dumb to townread?

I'm hoping to get compensated in the form of a replacement, to be clear.

Personally, I'd rather skip the guesswork on the comb power, but that's just me.

[Prism]

And ceding an artifact to do so*

[Prism]

So you’re saying you don’t want to out negative abilities that exist in order to protect a flavor claim which is almost always NAI?

Have you read the sample PMs?

Not mechanically discussing the artifact, take it up with bork.

[Prism]

If flavor is alignment indicative then scum would receive fake claims.

yikes

guess i need to hit the mechanical drawing board to think of a way to confirm i am a specific person

[Prism]

Oh wait, I had their fucking artifact and gave it to someone else N0, right.

[Prism]

For bork, might want to reflect on specifically who the scumteam likely is via sample role PM and how I would fit into that.

[Prism]

Yes, scum are going to have fakeclaims.

Do they start with artifacts N0 that match the fakeclaims?

Possible.

[Prism]

I'm going to step away before I get downright vicious because I already deeply, deeply regret staying in this game.

[Prism]

Sorry, wait, before I go, Spiffeh's tone is kind of town based off my dartboard and the comb has a wiki page, that does a lot more to drive conversation over outright making a controversial mechanical decision to speculate and discuss the implications of.

[Prism]

I guarantee that excited is the absolute last adjective I would use to describe my play this game if that helps you solve the dichotomy.

[Prism]

At this point I'm about ready to vote MathBlade with LLD when the artifact gets distributed, zero reason to ever give that scum QT question the light of day.

[Prism]

LLD scumreading me isn't a surprise/is a rational response here, but MathBlade is actually failing that reaction test and refusing to draw any conclusions whatsoever about my alignment in light of it is failing the test with flying colors.

[Prism]

My point is Prism is trying to “confirm” themselves

instead of hunting.

The question becomes why and since the confirm is impossible as it doesn’t demonstrate alignment it’s noise stopping us from hunting.

about to discus throw my laptop into a black hole

[Prism]

I use art to cope

[Prism]

FWIW I'm pretty null on LLD, MathBlade bothering to respond to the PT accusation was major ???, LLD's questions and aggression have a point that I'm fine with.

[Prism]

Spiffeh needs to do something that isn't shitposting, sangres is a townlean mainly because it's Nacho specifically voting to give me the artifact.

P-Edit: speak of the devil

[Prism]

yes, YES

NULL READ ME HARDER

MAYBE THEY WON'T SHOOT ME BECAUSE THEY'LL THINK PEOPLE WILL BECOME PARANOID OF ME

GOOOOOODDDDD

Can't reveal you actually think I'm town like that SMH

[Prism]

Nevermind it was ffery who thinks I'm town, not Nacho, back in the null pile you go.

[Prism]

Thought about it more, haven't read last page and can't atm but zero chance sangres is scum here

VOTE: Sangres

[Prism]

I'm on my phone so pretty limited, but the short of it is that sangres would make a bigger show of paranoia here, which hasn't happened yet. They also respect my towngame too much to fight on my behalf out of the gate like this, let alone give me the artifact. Hard town.

Playstyle it's nice to have diversity.

[Prism]

Still gone, artifact assigned to me pregame, again b/c of my character

[Prism]

Consider not mass disclosing that you didn't start with an artifact, food for thought

[Prism]

My point is Prism is trying to “confirm” themselves

instead of hunting.

The question becomes why and since the confirm is impossible as it doesn’t demonstrate alignment it’s noise stopping us from hunting.

about to discus throw my laptop into a black hole

I use art to cope

Jesus Christ people it's a reference to this it's not a soft

I literally know zero of you personally, did not know Bork was V/LA, and am infamous for rejecting any and all attempts at socialization beyond just playing the game of mafia, get over yourself.

[Prism]

I literally /outed from the game because penguin sent me something nice and you think I keep track of people beyond meta

[Prism]

It's not a soft and I am about to ragefullclaim if you can't do literally anything fucking else

[Prism]

Pretty sure yes @Bork, and my character is the one most strongly associated with it

[Prism]

IMAGINE SOFTING A FLAVOR CLAIM AND SPENDING PAGES SORTING THROUGH SAID SOFT

WHEN I HAVE FULLY FLAVOR CLAIMED TO ANOTHER PLAYER IN THE GAME

[Prism]

Bork review the negative again and think, it's extremely useful as a counter to a certain role

[Prism]

"One but not both of Prism/Bork"

How the fuck would me being town lead to Bork being scum?

[Prism]

The fishy shit is literally you spending the first 10 pages mechfishing and spewing trash

[Prism]

I'm on my phone so pretty limited, but the short of it is that sangres would make a bigger show of paranoia here, which hasn't happened yet. They also respect my towngame too much to fight on my behalf out of the gate like this, let alone give me the artifact. Hard town.

Playstyle it's nice to have diversity.

Not really digging this townread???

We're pushing you to get an artifact early and tbh I'm not even sure what that artifact does. We don't have to make a big show of paranoia because we can always go back out a townread.

Where's that respect for our scum games?

Ffery makes more of a show of uncertainty here, your response tackles positioning which is a completely separate issue and doesn't matter.

Neither of you are bad at the alignment but I am scared of neither of you.

[Prism]

Finally home so I can go more indepth.

First I want to preface this by saying I'm intentionally playing more abrasively. As mentioned before, diversity is nice and I'm tired of playing friends after Iceland.

Second, at the risk of echoing the Elo in Iceland, most players who have posted feel town (Least town players to me are MathBlade, LLD, Dunnstral, all of whom have plausible reason to react these ways as town though Math continues to be ???. Spiffeh's reaction to Math is A+++ content regardless of what he is). I guess I haven't really read much Cakez/Pooky either.

Now that I think about it quiet's opening post was pretty rough.

Although my view of Prism as town doesn't really line up with that easy of a town read on nacho hrm.

So with your bit about the high expectations, you're incorporating reads from Undertale and a bit of Xenoblade and maybe Chara's Folly/2181-things like my demands of Nacho as Replica, and my high demands of Hectic, Chara, and catboi in Chara's Folly. I don't really have any expectations like those of any of the players at this table, and I think my last two games with Nacho reinforce why the bar is very low. Texturing reads realtime with the "Wait it's this play" is super basic and I wouldn't put stock into it.

My sangres read comes from ffery atm, who I've only really seen as scum. This read has nothing to do with her meeting a certain level of townplay, but everything to do with how I think she chooses to react to me making a power move mechanically, and what she thinks

I would expect

after Iceland. She's also dead wrong about how strong of a town player I am, but in her mind I'm a "scumhunting dynamo" and not someone who should be given a solid position to lead with. Hard town slot, easily.

To be blunt, it's not that anything about her tone or whatever is outside of her scumrange, or that her positioning is disadvantageous as scum. She's just wrong that she would do this as scum, because her mind in interacting with me would be completely elsewhere.

You mentioned something about how this isn't what you've seen of my scumgame, and you're right. I'm on record as valuing a high degree of flexibility in my scumgames, I categorize my scumplay focusing around eliminating any sort of risk and positioning very safely, and have yet to fakeclaim something besides VT

ever

.

But I'd would burn this tell in a heartbeat without question, my meta record exists to be abused, as quiet recently learned the hard way.

Bork review the negative again and think, it's extremely useful as a counter to a certain role

I'm sorry if I'm being dense but I'm trying to think of the positive utility of what you're talking about other than "unable to get snowed by Cabd in the purple room this time"

There is a very niche but extremely powerful usage but I don't think it's that important to get on the same page about atm.

Now that I have more votes I'm down to swap back as sangres suggested

VOTE: Prism

[Prism]

Okay you can go to null but I am still weary. That’s a good answer though.

Prism, asking for a friend:

Is this what it looks like when someone makes a show of their paranoia?

It's a bad post but I'm kicking the Math read down the road because I remembered the games I flipped scum against/with him and could feel my blood pressure rising on town's behalf. I also literally just don't want to give him another second of my time today.

As you alluded to, the "one of prism/bork" line was absolutely horrendous though

[Prism]

The most recent posts confirm for me that I just instinctively hate virtually every post Nacho makes from an alignment perspective, think this is the 5th/6th game in a row. There was one game he convinced me he was town as Imperium but every single other game I wind up thinking "Wow that's a bad post" and scumreading him and I'm throwing in the towel.

[Prism]

I'm sorry but you have the wrong house, Tammy is next door, please get off my doorstep

On a more serious note, while it is in my interest to suggest this, we want to make sure we leave the majority of pages for the rest of the dayphase, ie. the bronzing/elimination. I'll take a step back for the night to make space for the town players who haven't posted, additionally.

[Prism]

I don't have too many thoughts on the last few pages. I'm still waiting on more from slots like GreyICE/quiet, and at the risk of more over the top hyperaggression, LLD.

Bell's also a little bit weird since the last time I spent a game begging him for something mechanical I was a doctor, and as brought up by LLD, in general both alignments want to artifact hoard. With what I had, I was fine risking sending it to scum in order to utilize it in a more immediately effective way. He's not wrong on my strengths as scum but citing FGO is really fucking out there.

That said they're active and thinking and from what I can remember from petapan probably town.

It is too bad that the natural reaction to MathBlade's post about me/sangres is modkillable. While there was the miscommunication, I think correcting them on my experience is hilariously ironic, in that as individuals, Nacho is by far the player most familiar with my forum play, with ffery being the close second.

Tammy, most of your comments on my playstyle weren't wrong. I really love to talk about play like that but don't want to bog the thread down with it. I can't resist saying I'm "conventional" in the sense that I put an emphasis on basic scum fundamentals. It's when you have the fundamentals down pat that you can branch out into more interesting directions strategically. My style of scum is generally an anaconda that chokes the life out of the town. The phrase I use is "surgical snoozefest". That said, I do have an alternative if they don't like to go quietly and insist on fighting to the end, which quiet recently had the displeasure of seeing: violently smashing their dreams against the wall as though they were only a wine glass.

[Prism]

Town, not spewing blatant trash like Primroses that should have had you autovoted.

[Prism]

I'll take the artefact but I'm not pressed about it as long as we vote for a townie to have it.

In my mind the perfect vote for the Artefact is Battle Mage, but I'm willing to take it if people think I'm towniest.

Okay I take it back this is a scumclaim and intentionally taking advantage of the angle Bell is pushing with "town but not actively wanting it"

[Prism]

I was null leaning town and didn't think LLD was a bad backup but after 381 hell no, if you want to compromise we can go sangres.

[Prism]

Tammy doesn't like mechanics iirc but she's also a good pick.

[Prism]

Town, not spewing blatant trash like Primroses that should have had you autovoted.

now now, don't be salty

Needed to save the salt in case I needed it for the more important fish.

[Prism]

Sure, last chance to back out.

[Prism]

HG Wells, VT, Artifact was a Minoan Trident.

Your turn.

[Prism]

Can I have the artifact.
I'm town and town should want the artifact and I'm nothing if not shameless about it.

Yeah, sounds like we're equally town.

Glad we could do that, regret zero.

[Prism]

If you think you proved a point to me, I hate to break it to you, but you did not. Being wrong is not news to me in the slightest.

Makes my life easier at least.

[Prism]

VOTE: LLD

Might as well give her the artifact while we're at it.

[Prism]

I'm going to need a letter from your Doctor explaining why you aren't voting LLD instantly RN @Everybody.

Imagine mean words here that end with "It's fine ego isn't going to ruin her N1 mechanical choice"

[Prism]

I'm going to choose, mostly for the sake of my sanity, to trust that this is somehow/will wind up to be +town in EV, and not just that you could not wait until postgame to say "lol u were wrong"

[Prism]

What, you think it was wrong for me to claim this role in this position?

It was always happening today, I just got to smoke out Prism's weird distracting nonsense of a soft half claim at the same time to sort it as well.

Personally, I think this is optimal outcome, especially since I got to troll Prism a little too.

I mean, I'll own up fully to being wrong on you, like I said it was not much of a surprise, but considering that it's the entire reason you've gotten so far on MathBlade, and was well on its way to getting me the artifact Day 1: Was it distracting nonsense? I didn't hate fully outing since I had gotten basically all that I could from it and had anticipated fullclaiming today anyway. I know fully you bluff like that as town, but I prefer to call it over leaving it.

Considering fully outing the artifact information but going to chew on it for awhile.

[Prism]

The short of it is that the value of flavor claiming was worth more than the item itself, and it was not especially dangerous for scum to have provided we knew who had it (and with no N0 kill, we would)

[Prism]

Dunn isn't a bad vote, wasn't a fan of early posts but 469/471 are major yikes. Want to more seriously tackle MathBlade while wellrested. Feel good about Spiffeh either way atm.

470 isn't awful, like either way Dunn thought this. Artifacts are stashed separately from your role powers in a personal inventory. You should have received a PM overnight explicitly listing this inventory.

[Prism]

Most of this is re: quiet, originally had a vote here but I'll keep holding off. Bottom is a response to Dunn.

Quote about being glad to see the artifact go to LLD over me is weird and out of place, especially given that you didn't TR them outside of the claim (and appeared to think mine was town earlier, even if paranoid).

I like Spiff, +SirCakez for the Dunn read and follow up, and I think SirCakez has been generally driving the game forward. With Spiffeh, I appreciate the willingness to TR Math and express discomfort with that wagon; I'm not all the way there yet on Math, but that's at least twice now they've posted something I thought was rather useful + aligned with how I'm reading the game.

These reads aren't bad but the reasoning is really lacking imo based off who you've seen flip what in prior games, and your better understanding of range.

So as usual, I'm townbucketing way too many people

Best part of this post is probably the second half, combination pairings might have looked good after Iceland but are generally an illusionary hope and should just be abandoned to later days.

Is this how Prism got their artifact?

Spoiler: Holy shit how many people are going to ask variations of this?

Still gone, artifact assigned to me pregame, again b/c of my character

Consider not mass disclosing that you didn't start with an artifact, food for thought

SOME PLAYERS, LIKE ME, STARTED WITH ARTIFACTS PREGAME

[Prism]

Saying 'because of my character' when you're claiming vt doesn't answer the question mechanically. What you quote isn't a response to what I asked.

You asked two questions. One was about expecting modifiers. I didn't answer that here because I already explained it in 472.

The question you just asked was what mechanism I got my artifact through. I answered both via quote and directly all capsing at you telling you that players can start with artifacts in their inventory. Mine ~just happens~ to be related to my character flavor. This absolutely answers the question of how it was mechanically distributed.

I can quote all fucking day dude but you have to read the game.

[Prism]

Right, well, I hope that by working together with the table you will be able to come to a conclusion on whether or not this falls under "other artifact distribution mechanisms", I wish you the absolute best of luck in your long and perilous journey.

Maybe if we're lucky we will get a mass artifact start/no artifact start claim Day 1.

[Prism]

Prism, there is no universe where I'm going to be happy about the entire game TRing you so hard day1 as to hand you an artifact after last game. Sorry. Respect your scumgame way the fuck too much for that, regardless of the mechanical stuff that I buy this game. I can light townread you, and not want to hand you ULTIMATE POWER (or at least, a bit o power).

My point here was that going out of your way to work in the "LLD over Prism" bit struck me as odd and performative. I'm not at all surprised to see that you would never townread me in a million years.

Bork also appropriately signaled that he saw the artifact description, he 100% got it.

[Prism]

I'm not really feeling up to the task of playing today so I'm going to substitute a brief survey of where I'm at.

I'm calling all of Tammy, BM, sangres, and Bell town in that order.

I townlean Spiffeh/Cakez after that. Finally, Titus is probably my weakest townlean.

LLD is town basically just for the claim. Kitty's posts looked fine but I never really sat and chewed on them.

Having a much harder time with scumreads this game, I've basically refused to think about Math until l get a chance to sit down and read very deeply. Dunn is rough, the softs make me want to say town but are just bizarre. Quiet is lackluster but not hard scum. I want more from players like bork, mastina, GreyICE, and Pooky (Not really a lurker) because I think they're likely scum slots by default.

[Prism]

I missed that bork posted, I'm sorry I'm tired, will update tomorrow

[Prism]

Already verified that Bork has adequately communicated the effect of the artifact to me.

I would not have traded it for a flavor claim if it was sufficiently powerful.

[Prism]

What Bell said, really doubt they get more info about the artifacts than we do.

Keeping the mechanics of your artifact secret vs. making it public is very dependent on the artifact itself and I don't think anyone else can make that call.

[Prism]

The "factions" casting was also weird given that most of the LLD voters were more anti-Prism than pro-LLD, but there was plenty of crossover between the "factions" to begin with. Me being anti-LLD lasted like 40 real time minutes. We're also spread pretty evenly on Dunnstral, I'm skeptical but neither me nor LLD are voting there.

I don't think Bell is scum and I guess thinking in groupings can be a tool but seeing clearly is important.

[Prism]

Why go after the sangres townreads in aggregate as opposed to going after me specifically?

716 kind of explains the "aggregate" element but it's clear you didn't like my read specifically so the fact it took sangres asking to get you to pursue this concerns me

[Prism]

Why don't you find that scummy?

FWIW My read on sangres is a very specific bet on ffery as a reaction to two recent games with me-one that she modded, and one that we played together.

[Prism]

Yeah that's almost certainly going to earn my vote sorry, but will again hold off until I'm ready to do more tomorrow.

It's movie time, if you see me playing mafia tell me to go away.

[Prism]

Alright, well, pretty sure Bork is town, game is very interesting but also no energy ever to rework through slots that actually need it and I have a 2 hour drive to make before I can circle around to this game and god knows if I'm going to have the energy after that but I will try.

Haha, yeet.

[Prism]

I feel LLD and GreyICE are probably town, but their play is shit. LLD in particular cares more about control than honesty and valor. I bet that will make her angry but I don't really care about LLD's tantrums.

This section seems really manipulative around getting townread rather than a genuine commentary on their alignments, the fact that you're going out of your way to say you don't care about her tantrums bothers me.

I am glad Math is actually quiet for a few hours to let the thread discussion go elsewhere for now.

Strangely meanspirited and almost baiting Math to come back into the fold.

First paragraph about sangres/Dunn also struck me as very uninspired tossaway reads.

[Prism]

Sorry to put the game off ~yet again~ and add to Grey's list but I finally finished my drive only to spend 2 hours troubleshooting various plumbing issues and so goodnight

on the bright side i should be here nice and early tomorrow but send help

[Prism]

I don't really care if it bothers you. LLD is about control and that's a fact. LLD claiming mason is manipulative. That's a fact. LLD has fakeclaimed mason before. That's a fact. LLD has a temper that's a fact. I don't care if I provoke it. That's a fact.

My point was that going out of your way to highlight how you're willing to risk being another innocent tantrum victim, struck down for the sake of the truth, felt very performative.

If saying facts is manipulative, then I am guilty.

This is nice rhetoric but you're not Dwight Schrute or a PragerU video, I suspect you're not naive enough to believe that the selection and presentation of facts aren't extremely important.

I feel LLD is doing this controlling behavior because otherwise she'll feel drowned out in a playerlist with Tammy and Nacho.

This is subjective but I don't really think this is true. Tammy was a more vocal voice but sangres, while active and opinionated, was intentionally playing a reserved role. As for other players, I don't think LLD was scared of me getting the artifact and leading at all. As I'll get to in a second, contextually I don't think it makes much sense. She's also been more than happy to let others continue to push and investigate without shutting it down.

You were getting the artifact before LLD claimed and insisted she get it.

This isn't true if you look at how it went down. LLD explicitly was fine with someone else receiving the artifact, which I found scummy given her stance it needed to go to town.

It took me saying she was scumclaiming to get her to intervene, but the point of it wasn't to seize the artifact-it was to sort me and make sure I wasn't scum getting the artifact by seeing how I reacted to her when challenged. Getting the artifact as a result was a forseeable result, but it took me making a questionable attack to trigger her claim.

LLD is all about control.

There's an important distinction between "control of the final vote" and "control of the discussion". I don't think the former is very AI, and I don't think she's tried to domineer the discussion at all. The few times she exerted it was has been pretty judicious/limited.

I'll work through you/Math more fully and get back to you but this doesn't fill me with confidence.

[Prism]

First I want to preface this by saying I'm intentionally playing more abrasively. As mentioned before, diversity is nice and I'm tired of playing friends after Iceland.

1: Nine times out of ten, a player saying this is going to be scum. Deliberately altering your playstyle in a game with multiple players intimately familiar with your playstyle and justifying it in advance is a common scum ploy. (Heck I can even back this up with a rather notorious example if you'd like, but suffice to say, this is a real tell.)

Several players just watched every idea they had for distinguishing town/scum Prism go up in flames my last game, and I'm not talking about a small campfire.

This table is not at all filled with players "intimately familiar" with my play. There is exactly one slot, sangres, with any substantive experience at all, but for both players my play remains shrouded in mystery. Conveniently, both of them also fall into the above. The players in that slot will absolutely testify that I can reflexively fake my town meta without even having to think about it (not that I would necessarily choose to do so this game), and will probably admit, if reluctantly, that the chance they spot me as scum for style and tone/without extensive flips is zero. Don't ask them to reconcile this with townreading me or you'll break them. The slot with the second most experience with me at the table is GreyICE. He can speak about that expansive, very recent experience if he wants.

I'm not saying I'm town for it, but I am saying I have no interest in stagnating and continuing to play the same way every game. Half the point of my play in Iceland was an active criticism of my towngame, highlighting that the style I've been using had gaps so egregious that it made them easily abused as scum with virtually no way to tell the difference.

2: Nothing Prism has done this game has felt town. Quite the opposite in fact.

[Points 3 on are all scum because flavor]

Thanks, very specific. I am scum for flavor and for signaling that the meta shift was intentional. Somehow this is not a facetious strawman.

If you and Math already think I'm scum for flavor, just wait til you see the artifact! YEET

[Prism]

Prism is biased on Bork due to the nature of their approach to Bork.

? Unclear what you mean by bias/nature of approach here. Bork was chosen at random to get the artifact, with the qualifier that I did at least trust he was competent enough to leave him on the list. You weren't in 2181, are you referring to that game?

Put me in the Prism is a scum read because of paranoia at appearing fairly spotless read. Or 'I hate people that have every post bleed town read'

I don't get your positioning around me. You've repeatedly alluded to my posts being town all game. To my knowledge, you have never once seen me flip scum beyond the first post of FGO, and until two weeks ago my record as scum was virtually nonexistent. You did similar weird shit in Xenoblade, where we were both town and where the action I wanted (you to drive us) was more ambiguous in my incentive for it. In contrast, this game the incentive as town is very unambiguous.

It's unclear to me if you're saying all of my posting is town/spotless, or that I'm trying to keep myself spotless by gratuitously giving townreads. If this is the case, do you think the plan with my gamestart was for me to go deep over powertowning to burn 2/3 miselims?

I actually worked through this on my own, and in conjunction with realizing you didn't actually call my posts town think most of this has been answered, but I'll leave the post as-is because I think the question above is a bit of an inconsistency worth chewing on.

[Prism]

Wasn't a test for Bork at all, there's literally no choice but to confirm it or he basically gets policied. I was definitely spitballing before my drive last night but it was everything about his posting yesterday and nothing to do with his reaction to the artifact, I had him in the null-leaning-scumpile before yesterday. I'll elaborate if if I still feel that way in a bit.

I'm actually really struggling to find a good starting point given that I've been kind of half here phoneskimming, half not, and ISOs aren't my style, so I'm going to just start from scratch which might take a couple of hours.

[Prism]

Prism what is a game where you were scum?

Full record

Iceland, Jan 2021 (Personal Notes PT)
Scumsman, Black Hole Defection, March 2020
The Thaw, March 2018
The Mod Is Mafia, Stalfos, Sep 2017
Miss List, July 2017
Market Blitz, Apr 2017
Sakura Wars, Reflektor, Apr 2017
Mini Normal 1838, Oct 2016

Iceland if you want an idea of range, Thaw/Market Blitz/1838 best stylistic/positional samples.

FGO/GG1 aren't linked because I posted like twice in each.

[Prism]

Best of luck to you. If you’re scum this game and keep up your posting I’d nom you for a scummy if they weren’t closed right now.

I'm not scum anyway but in case anyone considers it for my other games: Save yourself the trouble, I don't accept nominations.

[Prism]

@sangres:

Your posts themselves are town but I am very concerned that Nacho is actually playing the game.

I'm not the same player I used to be. I am town; I am still readable, but if you had meta tells such as Tammy reacts x way if I call her scum when she's town, posts x amount if town, gets super emotionally invested if town, is aggressive as town, is only mad in a certain way as town, or any other pretty superficial thing that was part of my meta then, it will not apply now. (Hopefully, oh gods hopefully)

@Mastina

Can you elaborate on your early read of Tammy as town?

VOTE: Bell

I'm town. Give me the gun.

...Do you understand why this concerns me, Bell? I no longer have petapan to outsource this read to.

I still have no clue how to read MathBlade and am going to have to actually look at sample games, Spiffeh is still good, Pooky is a coinflip and not bad vote, Titus's opening posts were worse than I give them credit for. I still feel good about BM from what I've seen of him in Xenoblade/Primroses but I might have to look at other scumgames, the mechanical focus early was questionable. Cakez is still super town and natural to me, whereas in Xenoblade instictively I was ready to turbovote him very early. Tammy is still super fucking town from 147 alone.

I actually kind of wonder if 148 is just openly mechfishing from Pooky given that he has seen my mechanical competence and he's seriously pretending I might have mechanically scumclaimed Post 1.

Be back after lunch and sorry I'm slow as fuck.

[Prism]

No.
It’s very much in character for me to want things town should want as town.
I’m not a difficult read. Pretty much everybody that matters already thinks I’m town this game.
And I will not let them or you forget it.

Food tell

I am very, very glad I went to lunch and a walk before making this.

The issue is not you being paranoid or not townreading me. The issue is that any attempt to dialogue with you across three different fucking games has been met with outright hostility and refusal to exercise even the most rudimentary level of critical thinking when presented with feedback on your thought processes. Simultaeously, I am apparently god herself because I made a fucking horrendous opening post in FGO that the one player who knew me correctly identified it as a hard scumclaim. I replaced out of illicit half because of you, half because ffery was being annoying. I tolerated you in Xenoblade because I had petapan. I considered dodging this game for several players in the list and you are one of them. I no longer consider the first an option, and petapan is not here. You are not scum right now, but if we lose later because you won't fucking dialogue with me and say "It's obvious", I will not feel even remotely sorry for you.

Sit down, and think to yourself again whether "spotless go deep scumplay" matches up even remotely with page 1 of the game, and do better.

[Prism]

No.
It’s very much in character for me to want things town should want as town.

Just in case you actually thought deeply about this and didn't see the issue: I did the same thing, but was willing to flavor claim and give mechanical information to a third party to try to make it happen.

I don't really want to talk with you anymore about myself right now, the point of the above wasn't "Critically think and you'll townread me!", but for next time I try and nudge you more on another slot, maybe keep how I'm currently thinking in mind.

[Prism]

I'm up to page 15 and I actually don't like the Kitty slot so far. I think the SirCakez push for the "meltdown" point was super safe and the qualifications/neutrality that comes with virtually every kuribo post doesn't strike me well.

I think the post that best showcases this is 368:

[cut image for size]

But for real

I can see where it looks out of place if you're looking for that, but I do think it's a stretch to call it a scum pt post. But I could be biased because I'm still traumatized from last years TM. Math is one of my stronger town reads, and I think he's come from a place of at least trying to solve the game. Might be too over-eager, I've been there where you start seeing things everywhere.

Call it an overreaction then if it bothers you.
I think Math is town-ish actually I just think his behavior is very silly.

See now was that so hard? Isn't it easier to just answer my question instead of making me ask repeatedly? You don't have to answer that one, I'll give you that for free.

PEdit: I'd be comfortable passing it to LLD more than Prism, tbh. But I've played with LLD a ton and I feel generally confident that I can spot her scum game by day two or three. She will probably deny that, but in her heart she knows it's true.

-k

They really let Cakez off the hook for free here for an answer that quite frankly was really bad

if you believed in the tell to begin with

. Throwing up your hands and saying "Fine I was reaching the word's too strong" is a super basic response as scum. The weird "But maybe I'm biased..." response regarding the "scum PT" point rather than just being like "yeah that's nothing" sorry is strange to me.

Ok what's your point here? This is such a dumb thing to nitpick.

My point is that I feel like you're making mountains out of emotional molehills by calling that a meltdown, and that's a real real strong alarm bell to me.

So again, I ask you, what part of that post you quoted do you call a meltdown? Two mildly peeved posts, if even that level of annoyance is hardly a meltdown, but that's the word you used.

-k

Peeking ahead they vote Cakez in 940 with the "gut feeling" but this entire progression is really, really rough imo as is the way the hydra has positioned all game.

[Prism]

I've got a bunch of shit in various tabs that I'm going to have to collate at some point but I think this one is interesting.

You're mistaken if you think I've given a read on prism. Me saying I can't trust means the claim at face value. I think Spiffeh is scummy and the townreads there are bad/rushed VOTE: Spiffeh

Can you be a bit more specific on why Spiffeh is scummy/why his push on you is bad? 480 is what I see. Later it seems like you cite the differences in Titus v. Alisae from this game. Skimming through it you definitely had a more wall-style, but this was accounted for by Spiffeh in 456. He's specifically talking about the style of how you're choosing to nitpick and snipe from the sidelines.

Here's his quote from Titus v. Alisae:

The reason I’m cool with Maki/Kaito getting lynched has nothing to do with Dunn’s activity.

I think Dunn has been really nit picky and snipes at anyone really questioning their slot (Espy, Sherlock, myself), and I’m not really seeing him presenting reads or pressuring anyone in a way that looks like genuine gamesolving. There’s a lot of one off comments that aren’t translating to solid opinions and it looks more like busy work than anything else. I have only played with Dunn a few times but I don’t remember it being so hard to understand where his head is at.

This lines up really well with his comments this game.

I don't really know how to feel about Dunn atm but Spiffeh is very town.

[Prism]

Okay, I'm stopping at page 30 and taking a break. Collating the quotes I'm interested in and making some buckets.

VOTE: Prism

I think Tammy is town, so I am proxying her my vote.

You spent a good amount of time early tackling Math's side of the interactions with me. I know I'm not really familiar to you as a player, but what did you take away about my alignment from that conversation/the claim?

Math, the thread wants to talk about Dunnstral.

What is your read there?

This feels so fucking malicious, at the time of this post Math isn't WHY WON'T PRISM TELL ME MECH SCUM NACHO PT POST at all at the time but is pushing Cakez, something actually novel and interesting.

Meanwhile Titus has said nothing about Dunnstral and has spent the past several pages just trying to get Math to talk more. There's sibling patronizing and there's setting them up to fail completely. Almost every single post of Titus's at this time is just continuing to draw more attention on Math, get Math to keep going, with this weird veneer of "I want the thread to talk not-Math" painted on top, even as the thread is chugging along just fine. 619 makes a show of working with others but Titus has literally done nothing but patronize Math all game.

Yes. It was. I want to see more. insert paragraph about rapidly evolving new players here.

This was about quiet's opening post. What's your current thinking on the slot/what made you iffy on the start? I know you didn't want to reveal fully what you're expecting, but I suspect you can go a bit deeper here.

[Prism]

This is ordered t->s within the buckets, ie. bottom of scumleans is the worst of the bunch

Safely town
==========
Spiffeh
Tammy
Bell

Pretty town
===========
Battle Mage
bork
sangres (Last three could really go in any order)
SirCakez

My Only Townlean That's a Mason Claim anyway
===========
LLD

MathBlade
============
MathBlade

Null and/or hasn't played the game up to Page 30
===========
GreyICE
Pooky
quiet
mastina

Scumleans
============
Dunnstral
Titus
Kitty Trauma Team

[Prism]

Still curious about the "one of bork/Prism but not both" comment, Math. This implies Prism town->Bork scum, which is very ???, the reasoning for Bork town->Prism scum is also a bit weird but makes sense with just a scumread on me.

[Prism]

Well, take it up with penguin_alien, I hate to break it to you but this is not the official Warehouse 13 themed rollercoaster that chronologically takes us through the highs and lows of the series park, faithful to the canon above all else, and this isn't role madness/uPick.

[Prism]

90% sure it's better to out it now that I don't have it, even though I think bork is town.

Trident is a targeted day-phase PT blocker. The negative effect is it blocks your own PT usage the following

night

. I suspect, but have not asked p_a, that this would hypothetically enable you to dodge a PT cop.

P-Edit: My flavor is

possibly indicative

depending on who the scumteam is. This is black/white depending on the p_a's whims. I guessed that it might be, and realized I could utilize my artifact in an interesting way to instantly flavorclaim. I'm not autotown for my flavor, I'm possibly town for it, and the fact that I was willing to instantly perform a mechanical flavor claim to another player is alignment indicative.

I can't justify p_a's mechanical/flavor decisions to a third party, I only know what they are

[Prism]

I'm sorry-you saw I started with a scum-utility artifact, and suddenly I'm town? What just happened?

[Prism]

As for my flavor, I don't think it's really indicative of much, but it's been a damn long time since I watched the show. I'm not sure this game is flavor breakable.

I think people are drawing too strong of a conclusion around the game not being flavor breakable. You can have flavor be AI, have a very limited number be flavor-confirmable, and still be very far away from having it be flavor-breakable.

but anyway I liked the content discussion, I still need to go for my break and read the last 10 pages, I still don't understand Math but I'll take it.

[Prism]

I'd be interested to hear why Kitty Trauma Team is actually town to people, the angles they're taking are insanely safe as scum, not at all difficult to fake, and the constant hedging/Cakez progression bother me.

I'll get to Bell/LLD comments later btw have just been trying to focus on reading, OKAY BE BACK LATER GOTTA STOP BURNING POSTS ON ONE LINERS

[Prism]

I'm happy with sangres's questioning of Kitty Trauma Team and don't really want to go further in light of kuribo's last post. The only one I have to add on is that several players have yet to explain why "town-Prism's actions don't make sense" beyond "Why pass an artifact to someone else?", and I want to know if there's anything else. I think 1015 explains my mechanical thinking regarding my opening well enough: as far as I can tell there's been no commentary about my reads, pushes, or positions.

For sangres I basically felt the same on quiet w/ the selfcontained posts, combine that with very gut/tonal reasoning rather than the deeper curiosity he couldn't really keep inside during Iceland and you have me skeptical.

I finished catching up, my reads didn't really shift. I was on my phone and so didn't really take notes. Titus had like, one post that was okay and bork went up. Dunnstral is completely missing the point me/sangres are making and I'm inclined to scumlean him for it.

I can probably vote anyone in my scumleans and maybe mastina/MathBlade, Pooky I think becomes readable and Grey deserves more time. My issue is there's no one I'm really confident on but Kitty is still the top.

P-Edit: Concur w/ Spiffeh on Dunnstral, read on me at least is very underexplained and the entire engagement around my read with sangres-my read was the questionable one, but it's not scummy, also not interested in questioning me further on it-has been bizarre. He had some questioning posts later that were OK iirc but given the level of pressure on him this is about what I'd expect.

[Prism]

I've basically wound down and gone to bed but thoughts on Kitty slot LLD? I wasn't impressed with any of the responses.

Dunnstral is an okay vote in my book, I don't really know why I'm so hesitant to actually vote this game as opposed to just discussing it. I think it's just that I'm not confident...which normally doesn't stop me, but idk

[Prism]

You've got a "90% tell", somehow I'm not your strongest scumread, and you've spent 3000 words engaging with exactly zero of my actual content.

Lumping all of my positions, pushes, townreads, etc. under "none of it is town" without engaging with it at all, and selling that as a scumpoint, is such horrendously bad play that it is physically disgusting and were it anyone else I would automatically vote them for it

[Prism]

Sorry, she also has one sentence somewhere in there saying "the way they went about the flavor claim", almost lost that fully explained silver bullet in the ocean of 3000 words of scum b/c HG

[Prism]

There's a difference between being less filtered/more abrasive and just being a dick about my holistic opinion of players for no real reason, already did similar to Bell, I could have been a lot more reserved in my criticism there and will try to strike a better balance.

Ie. Yeah that is horrendous play imo, but the phrasing I used was over the line, and I'm sorry

[Prism]

Our pacing has been just fine, we've got 40 pages to use in 4 days, we likely won't even use them all if MB goes through, and you're a slot of great general interest. Use them, it's fine as long as you're not spending 2 pages talking to yourself.

[Prism]

I went ahead and looked at the rest of quiet's history. Not playing any other games atm, 0 scumgames, every towngame is significantly more active/realtime, put that together with reads that he's not really challenging himself on at all and this does not look good for quiet.

[Prism]

these flavor arguments are fucking dumb
nobody should be basing any read on anybody's flavor claim

Pretty town
===========
bork

Can you talk about this one because Bork has not shown up at all for me yet.

This is entirely a reaction to Mini Normal 2181. Bork's initial play that game was extremely careful, and I wound up catching him testing me for a potential weak link rather than genuinely hunting. In later stages of the game, he was clearly felt positionally paralyzed, played extremely scared, and blatantly had no idea what to do.

This game he's been a lot less worried about specifically where he's at and what he should do next and a lot more off-the-cuff. He's still taking down other people's reasoning when he feels it appropriate but it's no longer blatantly testing for a place that's safe to stand. The questions have actual hunting incentive and he hasn't been nearly as afraid about who to go after and when.

ie. Very subjective meta read.

[Prism]

I'm not really down to engage with kuribo, given that it is largely "How dare you push me?" rage OMGUS and there's no actual questions for me besides "Are you willing to flip me?", for which the answer is yeah, not confident but I'd be down.

I'll again leave the dialoguing to sangres, but I'm still curious to hear from Mala about my first paragraph in 1081 when she eventually gets in.

For LLD, re: 1108, I have no experience with kuribo and am having a hard time reading into the anger posts. I can totally see the slot flipping town but I don't think the "he has to know" section is true.

[Prism]

VOTE: Kitty

Someone needs to come pick up their boomer.

[Prism]

With all of the reasoning you have presented on my slot, I am sure I will be the next vote.

[Prism]

I am explicitly inviting you to shove/murder me. Please proceed. Have you talked to Mala with me at all? What did both of you have to say?

[Prism]

I'm talking about in your previous conversations. Have I not come up at all?

Feel free to talk about your own perspective on why I'm scum!

[Prism]

I mean, I already kind of went first, but I'll give you something fresh/collated when I get home. Thanks for giving me something to chew on while I hike.

[Prism]

VOTE: Titus

Not completely sold but I'm satisfied for now!

[Prism]

It was a trick question, I don't negotiate with terrorists and I don't actually care what justification you try to come up with

Well, if you insist I'll gladly save myself the trouble!

I think the characterization of "terrorist" might be humorous to you given the sequence of 1179, 1199, and 1200

[Prism]

I'm back to just wanting more from Titus and quiet. I still don't know how to read MathBlade.

Makes me feel better that you're that sold on Kuribo's response, my instinct was "super town", after chewing on it decided that I needed to be more cautious but a pass for now, and at the moment I feel like I just have to wait and get the same read on Mala. Response was exactly what I was looking for with the hydra interactions, and was very convincing/nuanced on the face of it. The time turnaround was starting to concern me, but I was pleasantly surprised when I refreshed and saw the result.

Shifting from mad to a more calm press made it worth it to hand him the shovel and let him dig either my grave or his, and that was a solid pass imo.

[Prism]

Honestly? I should revisit the Cakez slot, and similarly wondered about the meta before deciding to give more time and promptly forgetting about it. Titus isn't wrong at all on that front.

With Kitty being town, yeah, maybe I should revisit this. I have too many townreads and am completely back to the drawing board on scumreads. This read is purely tonal, and based off of them not doing the stupid shit I scumread them for in Xenoblade (randomly getting in the way of MariaR questioning my slot iirc)

Probably going to work on it tomorrow, pretty burnt out atm but I know I have to keep trucking

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

decent chance I revote but want to revisit Cakez first tomorrow

Titus is being incredibly delusional btw but that's on us to work around if she's town

I'm also seriously considering a Math yeet just because I don't think I will ever be able to sort the slot.

Idk feel great about no votes, kinda sucks

[Prism]

sangres, if it isn't obvious I honestly have no fucking clue who is scum this game, suggestions are welcome, looks like you kind of concur on Titus but do you have any others? iirc you also scumread Dunn for that weird ass interaction with us

Titus in general has been a delusional/cynical mess all game long, so I agree with you, there's just one or two posts that give me doubt.

[Prism]

Titus:

You've been way too caught up with seeing only the worst of MathBlade this game, patronizing him even as he makes novel and interesting contributions to the game. You've been obsessed over the page count, and how it prevents you from playing, when it really doesn't have to be that way. You've let your bias against LLD convince you that she's spent the entire game shutting down others and shutting out voices, when in reality she has taken a major backseat and has been eager to lift up and encourage other players when needed.

All three of these things-seeing only the worst in Math, cynicism at the page limit, and strong bias against LLD-have combined to create a really insidious divorce from the reality of the game that makes it difficult to tell the difference between demotivation/cynicism and malice. Your posts aren't awful, your reads in my book are eh, but so are mine. The game is not lost, though, and assuming it is lost, unplayable, etc. is your worst enemy right now.

[Prism]

I might be depressed.

Don't be surprised if I don't post tomorrow. I'm trying to sort that out.

X post all games.

Okay, my previous post was made before this, I hope you feel better and I hope you can take a step back and recenter.

[Prism]

1304 is the towniest post in the game, from anyone. The fact that MathBlade is a contender to be limmed today is a travesty.

If I am alive (probably will be) then we can focus on Dunn tomorrow.

I actually thought it over what LLD is doing and I am not sure she has a choice. I think her messing up the gender may be a clue. I think the artifact is making her push me. In the show when a person was whammied with the comb they started talking strange. Lemme check something in thread after work.

This is the moment I went from "Maybe if I sit down and REALLY think about MathBlade for a few hours, I can understand him for alignment" into "I will never in a million years understand this slot"

This is actually the single most insane post I have ever read in a mafia game

[Prism]

I think I differ on BM Spiffeh in that I found BM super easy to read in Xenoblade, he basically chose to claim scum to me in 4 posts in a Newbie game, and here I felt a lot of the chaotic-but-not-blatantly-malicious posting from Xenoblade, just without the Gamma slapfight. I get why you think MathBlade is locktown but I'm not sure I agree with that given that I have seen them be extremely irrational as scum, granted it was years ago and I have dodged reviewing the games like the plague. I completely agree with the rest of your townreads/townleans though I think SC might be lower

I haven't really wanted to do work on this game even though it sorely needs it, mainly because it feels like I'm reading through piles of shit only to come out just as "Null/I don't fucking know" like on Math/Titus. SC I think I got bad confidence in from Xenoblade which means I need to meta, which is enough of a hassle already, but every other slot likely to be scum either don't post or are insanely hard to parse for alignment vs. divorce from reality

[Prism]

Pooky, what reads do you really feel conviction on? I see you say Math/Titus/Cakez scum.

[Prism]

Safely town
==========
Spiffeh
Bell
LLD
KTT

Pretty town
===========
sangres
bork
Tammy (Tonally great, have a concern to look into when I feel up to it)

Townlean
===========
Battle Mage
Pooky (Isn't just latching onto 2181 table for dear life)

Null
===========
SirCakez
Titus

MathBlade
============
MathBlade

Scumleans
============
Dunnstral
mastina
quiet

These haven't really come so much from reading as much as just thinking over the course of a day or two.

[Prism]

I feel I've probably let sangres/Tammy go too easily, but the first ones that really need to get scrutiny are definitely lower down the list that I'm just hipfire reading based off single game sample sizes.

P-Edit: Okay that single post has me thinking Tammy is fine again lmao

[Prism]

I've got enough energy to spitball, not enough to do my research, result is that I'm not going to hammer but I'm not going to ask the entire game to stall until I feel like undertaking anything substantive.

[Prism]

Me, sangres, Tammy, and Spiffeh all have basically the same reads and somehow this game is still hard. Amazing.

[Prism]

Quiet, not even close.

[Prism]

Yes. It was. I want to see more. insert paragraph about rapidly evolving new players here.

This was about quiet's opening post. What's your current thinking on the slot/what made you iffy on the start? I know you didn't want to reveal fully what you're expecting, but I suspect you can go a bit deeper here.

I thought Quiet might be a little less heart-on-sleeve after Iceland, so the reserve isn't surprising. but I feel like his posts are more self-contained? Not as much reaction/replying. It's hard to say for sure with just 8 posts to look at.

In general, big drop-off in activity from one game to the next in a new player gives me strong scum-vibes. Right now, I'm thinking he's scum even though what content he's put down, on the face of it doesn't scream scum.

More content, and soon is what I need here.

sangres said it best here.

For sangres I basically felt the same on quiet w/ the selfcontained posts, combine that with very gut/tonal reasoning rather than the deeper curiosity he couldn't really keep inside during Iceland and you have me skeptical.

Most of this is re: quiet, originally had a vote here but I'll keep holding off. Bottom is a response to Dunn.

Quote about being glad to see the artifact go to LLD over me is weird and out of place, especially given that you didn't TR them outside of the claim (and appeared to think mine was town earlier, even if paranoid).

I like Spiff, +SirCakez for the Dunn read and follow up, and I think SirCakez has been generally driving the game forward. With Spiffeh, I appreciate the willingness to TR Math and express discomfort with that wagon; I'm not all the way there yet on Math, but that's at least twice now they've posted something I thought was rather useful + aligned with how I'm reading the game.

These reads aren't bad but the reasoning is really lacking imo based off who you've seen flip what in prior games, and your better understanding of range.

So as usual, I'm townbucketing way too many people

Best part of this post is probably the second half, combination pairings might have looked good after Iceland but are generally an illusionary hope and should just be abandoned to later days.

quiet rises to the challenge if he feels out of his depth as town because he has nothing to fear except being wrong, always extremely curious and eager to engage with anything and everything that moves. Here I think he got outright overwhelmed and intimidated by the strength of the table as scum

The early posts weren't great but not blatantly scum, I do feel being scared to post entirely and getting overwhelmed by a game that is comparatively smaller than he's used to dealing with, and the only game he's playing, became more and more strongly AI as time went on.

[Prism]

This was his only game, so hypothetically possible, but as a player in general he noticeably has a real passion/curiosity to solve the game as town and siteflaking would be one of the biggest wastes of talent in years.

[Prism]

I'm deeply unsatisfied with my own level of play at the moment. I now strongly oppose a hammer overnight. Skimming quiet again, and seeing his positioning around Spiffeh/Dunnstral, which makes Dunn/quiet unlikely, this game is suddenly incredibly interesting to me.

[Prism]

Prism, if you're unsatisfied with your level of play... that's on you. We have no obligation to wait.

Fortunately, it wasn't directed at you, and if you believe you have anything to teach me as a player you can save the lecture for someone more receptive.

P-Edit: Well, that will give me something to look forward to reading in the morning I suppose.

[Prism]

mastina I don't know if you were hoping to use the low opinion I expressed of you in 2181 to engineer a townread from me even as you pushed me, but if you were it is not even slightly working.

[Prism]

From a style perspective, I am a fan of V/LA mastina. This is much easier and more straightforward to see the value of the perspective presented, as compared to when she plays like a third rate Victorian pulp writer who getting paid by the word.

[Prism]

Kind of thrown by kuribo not really pushing me after the "This 1v1 isn't over" but I remain extremely impressed by the quality of reads/posting, continues to raise the bar higher.

[Prism]

I'm going to be honest I am burnt out and just don't want to beat my head against a wall about this game, other days I was tired but today I just decided "Naw, I'm playing video games instead"

Spitballing w/o even rereading I'd rather Math/mastina, Titus is anti-town with their play-not that she doesn't have factors that significantly contribute-but idk. Felt town all early game, she goes off the rails when she starts obsessing over patronizing MathBlade/shitting on LLD. Mastina scum here doesn't white knight this slot into an autoelim tomorrow but 100% white knights that and pushes me/Math for insurance.

That said if I'm going to spitball all week and not do serious research even when it's blatantly required, what the fuck are my opinions worth anyway?

[Prism]

Didn't really check/revise that post, Mastinascum doesn't white knight Titus scum today, not with the 1v1 she's currently picking, but does white knight Titus town to use as leverage.

Mastina scum is already somewhat tenuous.

[Prism]

Here I think he got outright overwhelmed and intimidated by the strength of the table as scum

I agree that he's playing this differently than the newbie y'all were in from some brief reading after it ended when the Discord was singing your praises, but the fact that this is an inactivity replace we're dealing w/ and not an actual replace out, and also considering that quiet's only really active period in this game was over a course of two days, I think muddies the waters considerably.

I don't see a world where I wouldn't want to give that slot a day.

I don't draw a big distinction between the inactivity vs. fear replaceouts, though I get hypothetically why one would. At the end of the day absence of content is always going to be really murky.

Had a post where I voted MathBlade just for my mastina/Math instinct but rigor has just gone straight out the window this game and I'm playing like trash

P-Edit: lmao good timing

[Prism]

Oh baby we have energy finally, okay. Might take me awhile given size of ISOs/possible meta and me reading slow as fuck but tackling MathBlade, Titus, SC in that order.

[Prism]

I'm just getting the vibe from 1455 that titus wants to talk more about the reads that aren't legitimate scumreads (math, lld) than the people she's actually scumreading other than cakez. a lot of those other scumreads are heavily laced with plausible deniability

Not sure this is fair-look at the list again. Cakez is the only real scumread of hers. I no longer think talking about the two players she's hated playing with all game is that AI from what we've seen.

[Prism]

So in general I feel better about MathBlade as far as them not just intentionally spewing whatever mechanically speculative garbage first comes to mind, several of these progressions are actually consistent/follow a clear direction (Town!Prism as long as not HG, oh Prism is HG, Prism is scum) even if potentially scumdriven. Others are...still very ??? like the sangres scumslip and LLD excitedly helping push the p_a/Cabd transphobic agenda. I dunno. Internally consistent trash is better than internally inconsistent trash.

Math-really curious as to where your early townread on GreyICE comes from if you don't mind talking about that. You called him town extremely early on, then later liked his comment about you/Cakez coaching, but curious as to where this originated.

919 and 933 are serious mastina+Math redflags but IDK, trying to make sense of whether the voteswap in 935 is +town or Math is just trying to be chaotic as scum is incredibly difficult

I'm sorry-you saw I started with a scum-utility artifact, and suddenly I'm town? What just happened?

Scum you doesn’t give it away + a combination of LLD outed mason. You’d give it to a buddy.

So if you’re scum you’re scum with Bork

Which is kinda stupid on so many fronts it solves itself

I really want to revisit this, because the swing on me was extremely hard and on a dime, and I don't think this really groks. Your working assumption all game was that I was willing to give away an artifact as scum in exchange for towncred. The fact that it turned out to be an extremely niche/limited utility PT blocker shouldn't really change this, should it? Me lying about the power wasn't ever really on the table; and me giving away a +town use artifact would make a

lot

less sense as scum than me giving away a minorly +scum one.

I'm about halfway through Math's ISO so not done yet.

[Prism]

Looking a bit later it looks like you're implying I don't confirm masons as scum, but that's really weird given that I made my artifact choice N0, before masons are known/outed, and it's not like scum can really contest the masons anyway.

[Prism]

So if you were scum you’d know there would be a neighborizer or mason.

That would be valuable information that if you were scum and Bork was town you don’t give Bork.

So you scum Bork town is out.

I do not believe this is true-you weigh the value of the information vs. the value of the gambit, where this specific bit of knowledge is actually not that valuable for town to have-but this is a counterfactual in any case.

After finishing the ISO I'm pretty lukewarm. I understand a lot more about Math's progressions, which have consistency, but I'm not sold they're necessarily town; a lot of the reactions, esp to LLD, feel very rote to me. I'd vote mastina over Math in every world.

Moving onto reading Titus.

[Prism]

Still curious for more about your current thinking on Grey, bork too actually: you've put them in a section about townblocking but I'm wondering more specifically how you got there. "One of Prism/bork" might be rejected but I'm interested in specifically how you've arrived at bork being town, since me town doesn't imply bork town imo.

[Prism]

Also-you've referred to Spiffeh as obvtown a few times; do you think he whiteknights you like this as scum? I'm wondering how you got here, too, even though I agree with the read.

[Prism]

Sorry, I said "current thinking on Grey", I meant earlygame since you TRed him basically out of the gate for what I thought were frankly meh posts, that's my fault, completely wrong phrasing.

Not really sold on the "Doesn't buddy me" angle? Spiffeh scum knows it has a high chance of going through regardless of what he does. Are there other reasons you TR the slot?

[Prism]

I really hate to say this but I now think Titus is pretty town. I'm only up through the first 60 posts but Titus's worldview is clear, ex. Dunn hiding behind LLD demotivates her further, this didn't come up only recently but has come up repeatedly. Great progression on Bell with 604, 605, 614. 636 actually is trying to work with Math.

Leaping off of this the entire sequence regarding Math's read on Bell beginning in 636, resulting in a vote on Math in 656 is great. They're legitimately trying to dialogue with Math, not at all setting him up to fail, and immediately gets frustrated when Math shuts down any hope of basic discussion.

Her catching posting was great. Read on sangres is both contrarian and well thought out, had clear evolution beforehand, 1267 is solid statement of concerns. Followup about Grey in 1268 is also good. I ~don't really like~ the vote on me in 1270 if mastina is town but that's a big if and I buy it since Titus hasn't really engaged with my slot before this. Post about SC not following up on the meta was A+++, progression about me/Cakez team was also very clean when the VCA comes in.

Finally, there's just still some tonal things I like, both around sangres/Dunnstral but also around Spiffeh like in 812.

[Prism]

I'm onto SirCakez but right now my vote preference would be mastina->quiet->Math->???, and I'm willing to wait for a quiet replacement.

[Prism]

And I don’t have to sell you today unless you’re planning on flashing Spiffeh. I think Spiffeh’s progression is solid and he just doesn’t ping me. Similar with Tammy I think we’re in a rock solid place atm. There’s just really good vibes there

I will be voting Spiffeh exactly never, I was wondering what made him obvtown to you out of the gate for the purpose of sorting you.

Actually that's a lie I will absolutely flashwagon and vote Spiffeh at the start of gamedays.

[Prism]

I might not be giving Spiffeh enough credit as scum tbf-this is a big step up from Xenoblade where I got owned by Guillotina of all people, but that doesn't make him hardtown.

I really like the Dunn push, most of the reason to doubt the read would come from whiteknighting Math or for mostly tonal ingratiating on people like Pooky. Might need to consult Scumsman? Later project for sure.

[Prism]

I actually do want to revisit this Spiffeh read sooner than later, that was not at all the point of my question about him but thank you MathBlade.

Next up after Cakez I guess.

[Prism]

Thoughts on 1711 ffery?

Sorry for the spam, might start trimming because 18 pages

[Prism]

Okay, I skimmed Xenoblade to remind myself what Cakez scum looks like. Extremely defensive and scared and the only even remotely brave posts are freebies/Cakez clearly doing what he thinks is the "required" response.

Looking at the start of this game this is already a much more proactive and less selfconcerned Cakez that is willing to press, give reads, and not at all playing on the defensive/self-conscious end.

I'll finish up but I'm very comfortable slotting this as a townlean, if someone has meta of Cakez scum looking even remotely like this feel free to link but the constant proactivity/questioning here with a focus on others, without seeming too worried about being perfectly understood or playing safe, is extremely good imo.

Posts like 164, 265, 594 are the ones giving me this impression.

[Prism]

Yeah I really like the aggressiveness in the 600s from Cakez, probably need to do a better job tracking the reads progressions but this is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the scum Cakez I have seen.

[Prism]

Cakez, can we talk more about your Titus read? What makes you so confident in having her dead to rights? I see the delusional stuff in 1391, I'm not as familiar with Titus but I absolutely buy it, and I don't see as many issues with the reads wall as you do in 1568. In particular, I think her stances on Tammy, mastina, and the lack of stronger scumreads besides yourself are really questionable as scum. These also largely match up to what I saw from her thinking in her ISO.

This does remind me that I should reread her specifically to check out the progression on you.

[Prism]

Okay, I tracked the Titus progression on SC, it's a bit of an abrupt turn that goes from liking the slot mostly on gut/feeling the same emotions into a scumread based almost entirely off interactions with me after she buys mastina flavorcase. She doesn't like the results that come from pressuring his slot on the Pooky vote+meta request for me and here we are. Good progression imo.

[Prism]

I skimmed mastina's posts again. Everything about this slot is absolutely horrific, entire attitude around Cakez is a complete trainwreck.

VOTE: mastina

Honestly a great vote even if she flips town

[Prism]

Their positioning around me, Titus, and Math is the biggest redflag to me rather than the read on me itself. If it's town she's seems to just be hoping she catches the

Site's Unofficial Big Fish of the Day

over really engaging on a deeper level with my content. BADBADNOTGOOD

P-Edit:

You realize this is incredibly self serving if you’re scum yeah? I don’t think you are but this shift is incredibly awkward.

Titus’s progression was solely focused and crap (can’t detail while gaming but I disagree with your Titus town opinion)

Granted I think it’s Mastina +Titus here but I don’t see why Mastina townreads Titus here if scum Mastina Town Titus?

Care to elaborate?

Btw I have work on Monday so it’s iffy if I will be around. Will try.

1. Yes
2. If you're referring to my read on mastina there's no shift she's literally been at the bottom of my list for multiple days now. If you're referring to my shift on Titus, depends on what she is how selfserving it is, but I've just explained it.
3. Scum do townread town at times, more news at eleven. I'm extremely skeptical of how mastina has positioned around both of us, thinking us partners is not even slightly plausible and it reads more like hedging in the event you wind up flipping today though there is reason to doubt that (would require effect pointed out by GreyICE to be unintentional)

[Prism]

I'm pretty done reading for the day, my vote is where I want it and I'll be around again most of the day tomorrow. If anyone (sangres/Tammy?) want to talk about a slot I will probably have to wait until the morning

My top 4 votes at the moment would be mastina, MathBlade, quiet, and (what the fuck?) Spiffeh, with the disclaimer that the last is me really wilding out spitballing and I would never actually vote there without seriously rereading+digging deeper into his scum meta. Math just got me to think more about that read and now I'm concerned.

P-Edit: Oh hello sangres

[Prism]

@Prism, Sir Cakez' received some critique of his scum game in the Among Us large theme post game, and I understand that he applied it in the Booneytoonz game. Long story short, he's always tended to bus too easily. He worked on that in the BoonyToonz game. I'm not firing on all cylinders atm but I don't ~think~ his behavior around his partners was a big factor in what you were comparing from Xeno to here, but maybe I missed it. Here's his booneytoonz ISO. I'll take a closer look at this tomorrow. It seems like something that would be more useful to consider on Day 2, though his day 1 positioning on Noraa in Xeno looked scummy and also highlighted her as a likely partner.

viewtopic.php?p=12507107&user_select%5B ... #p12507107

I was more looking at Cakez's scared and reactionary selfconcern in Xenoblade, skimming this game he's a bit more proactive with questioning others and a little less worried about pushes on him but iuno. I'm pretty shot after reading for like 4 hours.

[Prism]

No. The shift from Titus to Mastina is awkward. It’s unnatural.

Despite Titus not even trying or doing anything remotely Townie people are moving to Mastina. It’s awkward and happens to be on someone whose almost exclusive focus is on you.

Same answers. Review my progression and make a case on it if you want.

Yes, scum do townread town at times. But why would scum Mastina say to go so far as she did. Iirc she said something like she’d rather be elimmed than her or top townread. It was something fierce: I don’t see why Mastina makes herself a target like that if Titus is town and she is scum. Can you elaborate on why she would do that since that seems to be your position?

To be blunt, to towntell, going to bat for townslots thinking/hoping they'll get flipped regardless happens with such regularity that this feels willfully ignorant and I think putting the burden of proof on me to explain every detail of motivation for something that is one of the most foundational and basic moves of playing the scum alignment is very poor.

[Prism]

Like here you're asking me "Why would scum Mastina defend a townslot?" with the excuse that it's Titus specifically she's defending, where I don't think that makes much of a difference if Titus is town. Mastina had no reason to believe she was actually in danger of being flipped until the reactions started rolling in.

[Prism]

1541/1542 are very basic, 1548 is reactionary and mostly forced. Mastina might wind up being town but these posts would again be so trivial to fake as mafia and there is only so much I can do to help you here without being extremely patronizing lecturing you on the fundamentals of the scum alignment.

[Prism]

Reviewing the timeline I can actually see what you mean about the votes coming before 1541, gimme a sec

[Prism]

Yeah, no, still not impressed. Two votes in the middle of the catch-up doesn't mean you throw a white knight plan out the window, just inspires 1548.

[Prism]

Pretty sure I don’t need the patronizing lecture considering I am one of the best scum players on site, thanks.

Glad I can skip it, thank you!

[Prism]

Since I came from EM all I can do is tone, have never had an understanding of basic positional play or intermediate tactics haha

[Prism]

Will be in in an hour or two, try not to turboburn pages, we have like 12 but the burn rate is quite fast atm and I'd like to hear more from LLD before EoD.

[Prism]

p-edit: what is suddenly so indicative of town-titus all the sudden here? I'm really having trouble with a lot of the movement here since it doesn't seem predicated on recent play, and is therefore more likely to be part of a deliberate effort by scum to move the wagon toward cakez or mastina out of thread since i'm just not seeing anything in-thread organically that should be causing that

I hit 1/2 posts from Titus that went against my "Setting up MathBlade to fail" theory and from there started wondering ways I could be wrong. I also liked the readwall and there were probably other posts I liked tonally later in the day but I was already unsure on this read from that first revisit, the big issue is that it took me eons to actually work through everything I wanted to. My post about Titus is 1711

[Prism]

Honestly? Everyone except Bell and Battle Mage because they weren't interested in Titus to begin with:

any of
Sangres 1716
Prism 1725
your 1831

Feel to me like they could possibly be stay-off-my-buddy votes just because none of them have any real "I've changed my mind about Titus" to them, and if mastina flips green there basically has to be scum in there

The "If mastina flips town..." has yet to be resolved but I already take issues with this in that even if it flips green I'm not going to reevaluate Sangres for it and Spiffeh voting mastina makes me instantly feel better, though I guess given his earlier "both siblings are town" post maybe he feels he has to?

Originally I had a question of "Do you think this is true even if Titus is also town?" but at this point I don't even think it matters just looking at the slots themselves.

[Prism]

mastina is my #1 choice and I won't be swapping except to avoid a no-elim.

[Prism]

mastina is my #1 choice and I won't be swapping except to avoid a no-elim.

This reeks of omgus.

Well yeah, and it's the OMGUS acronym being used very literally rather than as a figurative/normative label

[Prism]

Prism isn't in a townblock.

??? First the section of bork you quoted implies I'm in a townbloc, second in what world am I NOT in the posited townbloc even if we ignore the first point

[Prism]

there is no wagon on Math really Bell

didn't math say Prism promised to vig math tonight or something? so if math survives the night, we can assume math is highly likely scum and prism also probably scum.

I am literally a claimed VT who gave my artifact away N0 lmao

[Prism]

I was very prepared to have little agency in the final vote but after seeing that mastina is actually very possible/likely, and that we have the votes to essentially force it, I've become pretty determined to see mastina through.

Still want LLD's opinion.

[Prism]

That is a fucking BEAUTIFUL 6 person votesquad, though the 3 people on Titus are pretty solid too.

Both the Dunn/Cakez are comparatively uhhhh fucking disgusting

[Prism]

FWIW Math is the one person I would consider eliminating instead barring no-elim ultimatum

[Prism]

Because on this page, in the 1711 through 1724 I am doubting my Prism read.

why lmao, I routinely make analytical posts like these as scum with 0 issues

[Prism]

Prism is conflicted due to having all the reasons for being scum yet seeing town in Prism's more recent play but knowing Prism could post it as scum

gonna be a yikes from me dawg

[Prism]

LLD please help, there's letting others play nice and there's letting the day go to shit

Pick one of mastina/MathBlade and just force it imo

[Prism]

Also there's 6 votes on Dunn, not 3. It's E-3.

[Prism]

Hey who wants to flash wagon Cakez today?

Vote: Cakez

Makes me want a Mastina death a lot less today.

I want one of

Mathblade
Titus
Cakez

today.

[Prism]

My preference is Mastina->MathBlade->Dunn->Titus->Cakez out of viable wagons right now.

I'm playing video games and will be back in 3 hours to vote as required.

[Prism]

and you said me/LLD were playing like idiots oh good lord deliver me from this den of sin

[Prism]

why are y'all even posting this shit right now

[Prism]

Damn, see you're one of my top town reads.

Like the Mastina wagon is just full of townreads for me, Minus GreyICE who is a "I need time" read.

but 'I worry about how Mastina and Dunn are both on Cakez and Cakez feels bad?

... should I just do Mastina? It feels wrong.

I need some guidance.

IDK and going out of your way to praise me has honestly kind of weirded me out all day but every vote today feels wrong for the most part, the one town thing about mastina was the Dunn reaction but other than that the whole ISO is absolutely horrible

mastina thinks I'm scum for my flavor claim and how I went about it, I make some basic analysis posts and then she goes "Yeah I know Prism can totally fake it but it's the first town thing they've done all game"

[Prism]

I don't think Pooky is scum, I don't know what to tell you about Cakez given that the self-concern/living in fear meta no longer applies but the last page does not instill confidence.

[Prism]

Hmmm

I think I have a problem with that claim.

Lemme think

Personally I'm back to thinking he's town, people seem to think that if enough null/scum players are on the wagon it's likely to flip scum, it's like watching an impending trainwreck where I can run and run but I'll never get there in time.

[Prism]

I'm really racking my brain trying to figure out how to swap this onto MathBlade/Mastina but I can't

Literally no one except maybe Spiffeh would be surprised if these slots flipped scum and yet somehow we're coinflipping on Cakez.

[Prism]

Pooky you can't do that when it turns out people start with artifacts, you need to use it to investigate claims to have no artifact, jesus christ

[Prism]

I wish I had kept my promise of playing video games, this is atrocious, the claim is fine (And when the "Flavor is NAI/Scum have fakeclaims" crowd was needed the most, they vanished...) and the votes on this are a giant scum/nullslot roll call. I maintain this even if Cakez flips scum.

[Prism]

I did just try to contribute to the Math is scum fund. But honestly. I just think people's eyes glazed over when I bothered to engage with him and it turned into a slap fight. You can tell from how they wrote about our interactions that they were more emotionally focused on their own discomfort and not so much reading what we were saying to each other and about other players.

Also, we are getting worryingly close to the page limit.

Decide. People.

Please just vote Mathblade and let's go to day 2. *

Or, if LLD still wants it, we can go Cakez.

Also, Pooky stop spamming or I'm going to kill you.

I'm down for MathBlade but Math is currently at zero and Mastina is at 5 so

[Prism]

We have 3 hours, that's plenty of time to massclaim. Leaping off of Tammy, let's start from the town players first. sangres is next!

[Prism]

The massclaim was a joke oh dear god I thought the "Let's start with the town players!" would give it away

[Prism]

If Bell/sangres switch back+bork adds on mastina will be E-1.

Can still swing MathBlade.

[Prism]

Full disclosure I'm trying to finish Final Fantasy XIII+still have time to go to the gym so I'm a bit distracted atm if you're wondering why I choose now to pop in

[Prism]

Also Cakez are you like, going to use your role before EoD or what

[Prism]

sangres/bell pls

[Prism]

You're my town lock this game for this post tbh

I have the exact opposite reaction and said out loud "Holy shit sangres is scum" before realizing that instead they just want to pump everyone's blood pressure through the roof

[Prism]

We have a few more posts than it appears, the page count here is ahead of the one given to us in the VC posts.

There is some town incentive here to hammersit like you're doing but it shoots the chance of a miselim through the roof and it's annoying.

[Prism]

I will be here to voteswap ~15 minutes before deadline if Spiffeh/sangres do not agree where to move. If I don't, it's a scumclaim.

Someone else on the mastina wagon can make the same pledge.

[Prism]

Okay, people on mastina wagon no longer need to worry.

Me/Bell are the two responsible for swapping if needed, if don't swap as required at deadline we're scumclaiming.

[Prism]

Cakez, what do you think about sangres?

[Prism]

Why the FUCK would you ever kill either of those slots, that better be a scum doublekill of some sort

[Prism]

mastina I don't know if you were hoping to use the low opinion I expressed of you in 2181 to engineer a townread from me even as you pushed me, but if you were it is not even slightly working.

I'm fine burning a post to flex

[Prism]

are we really going to vig fish

I'm a claimed VT, it's fine, but legitimately I would liability bronze them before they shoot me, bork, or BM next

[Prism]

VOTE: Prism

Not giving you the artifact today after refusing to vote mastina+being alive, if you're town it's nbd if you're scum fuck no.

Very unclear what Math's reads are supposed to be but has been awhile since I read, expected LLD paranoia to skyrocket

[Prism]

You were fine with me getting it yesterday. You weren't a control freak yesterday. Unclear why you decide to now after refusing to vote mastina Day 1 and forcing sangres/Spiffeh to bail us out.