Death Curse

[Bell]

Noraa, can you at least concede that Shellyc was fake bussing you.
Because she crumbed that very hard.

I don't agree. I think she had ridiculous pushes on me and twisted my meta. She was pulling some TSTBS and shading me all in one.

No. Read her posts.
She was setting up multiple miseliminations off of your flip.
Multiple scum were shading you but failing to vote you which I can link to.
Shelly was accused by both me and Murdercat of trying to actually derail your wagon even though she was pushing at your crazy hard.
She then went off and starting throwing enormous amounts of shade at Me and Isis and dropping you for awhile before consistently going back to throw more shade at you.

She VERY CLEARLY loled at Mush for thinking you were obv town and that communication makes zero sense from the perspective of somebody that knew you were flipping town.

I agree that if you're town, she basically snowed you with fake Meta. She has done the same thing to me.
But that doesn't explain the blantant, coordinated set up by the scum team to look like they knew you were going to flip scum without pushing your wagon themselves.

[Bell]

I think scum
try to make themselves look good unless they have a playstyle opposite to that like yours.

Zdenek, Vault, all set themselves up to look like they had good hunting instincts after your flip but didn't vote you.

[Bell]

Yeah, I will.
Back to reading.

[Bell]

It's more like they just out right ignored his existence Minus Shelly. Just based off of what I've read so far, him being partners with Shelly isn't out of the question. Their interactions were short and clean which is basic scum play 101 for partners.

This comes back to whether the scum team intentionally ignore their partners or not.
Sometimes they don't interact with town intentionally just so that someone can notice that discrepancy and push a miselimination.

It's super hard to derive the answer to be honest. It feels like one of those meta fluidity pheonomena where it falls in and out of fashion as players meta-meta themselves.

[Bell]

1011
bargaining. I feel this is NAI. Without elo meta from town Noraa.

[Bell]

1068
1069- I'm told scum are sheepy, but this looks like my sheeping and this is town bell #4. In otherwords, NAI, really. It's hard to know if his hesitation tojoin it because he knows hop's town or not. I don't think I could tell.
1084 Maybe scum knowing Noraa is town.
mmm.

[Bell]

noraa

ignore lamdadelta

and answer me two questions
if adorable is scum who else do you think is scum
if adorable is town who do you think is scum

Adorable/Shelly/Vaultdweller/??/??

If adorable is town, nothing changes. My solve just doesnt have them anymore. I mean there's not much interaction between these slots anyways so ....

scum will not kill you anyways. You are tunneling town hard and have been the one swaying this entire game with your stubbornness. Why tf would they kill you?

Doesn't make sense really to hop off of Noraatown and unto another town, but neither scum nor Town would necessarily care here. Esp. if Murder has regard for Pooky or/and LLD.
bleh.

[Bell]

1094
I need to take a step back.
Another narrative is that scum didn't wanna be on a town wagon while trying to secure it through shade.
fff which is more likely?

1098: Strange line for scum. but both have a lot of those lines as I keep having to say. boooo.

[Bell]

noraa

ignore lamdadelta

and answer me two questions
if adorable is scum who else do you think is scum
if adorable is town who do you think is scum

Adorable/Shelly/Vaultdweller/??/??

If adorable is town, nothing changes. My solve just doesnt have them anymore. I mean there's not much interaction between these slots anyways so ....

I'm not sure why she would look at associatives this early. But a lot of people do this and that's very confusing to me.

scum will not kill you anyways. You are tunneling town hard and have been the one swaying this entire game with your stubbornness. Why tf would they kill you?

MurderCat, what's your take on Taylor here and them trying to shutdown the Hopkirk wagon?

I would be too scared of you as scum to do what tayl0r is doing if you are right about Noraa

I think Tayl0r often stands up for Noraa here as town and might genuinely feel like she (tayl0r) can't operate how she wants too. I don't think Hopkirk/Tayl0r/Noraa/?/? is the solve because Tayl0r probably just let's hopkirk come back and defend.

murder can you make a full list of town -> scum like I asked uno to did for everyone active in the game

Do I still have to do this Shelly? I think I've made my position on thinking pretty clear

1133: Honest either way prolly.
1174. Does Murdercat not playBall with scum buddy shelly here? Shelly would probably respond by going easy on Murdercat which, honestly she has been.

[Bell]

how is it inconsistent?

LLD and Pooky are town and were town blocking me. It doesn't make sense for me to turn on them if there was a plan to get me to the end. I would have stuck with them instead. I would have passed to you in stead of Tayl0r to force a new final 2 that possibly includes me.

Imo its the people that TR you that you can SR and not worry too much about getting a SR in response :/

It was a random blip thought that Taylor could read Noraa and Noraa wouldn't want Taylor later game.

Her reads list had Murder being less likely town than Noraa tho.
It was an assumption I wanted to write a back up on, but decided not to.

[Bell]

Fidget do you wish to perform a blessing of some kind. I'm some frantically working on having a working solve and funnily enough I think I'm getting further away from it.

If I had time I would try to meta shelly here and see if she fake hard bus crumbs like this often or not.

[Bell]

Those two posts aren't helpful at all.
If anything Noraa's is better than yours because there are things she thinks she absolutely wouldn't do as scum whereas you talk in the third person you even say "I didn't push Fred in a way that looks like a bus"
Which implies that it was a bus that you took care to make sure didn't look like one.

This entire game has the key to the solve. Not just those two posts that truly aren't helpful to me at all.

[Bell]

how is it inconsistent?

LLD and Pooky are town and were town blocking me. It doesn't make sense for me to turn on them if there was a plan to get me to the end. I would have stuck with them instead. I would have passed to you in stead of Tayl0r to force a new final 2 that possibly includes me.

Imo its the people that TR you that you can SR and not worry too much about getting a SR in response :/

I didn't expect this game to be so fast-paced. I honestly can't keep up. I see the noraa wagon dissipated. Why? Who is/are the new wagon/s?

I think pooky and Swift are both town and should direct their energies outward.

LLD is in charge, Noraa had a weird fake looking town slip. She is upset so might actually be town, but we have to just vote her and advance the day. She threatened to shoot LLD despite town reading her which looks a lot like an excuse shoot her as scum. If Noraa is town it's probably Pooky imo. Because LLD and Pooky don't want LLD shot, they are looking at hopkirk first, with the intention of handing Noraa last so that she doesn't get a shot. I kind of think that's dumb, I just want to pass to Noraa first and get the info.

Mush looks like town, I think fidget looks like town, hot take is that taylor seems like town

Mush looks like town, I think fidget looks like town, hot take is that taylor seems like town

ok these are good reads

I can see town murder

LLD's posts do look pretty town, quick glance at her voting looks genuine.

consensus-er?

I was rather torn on your pred so give me those townvibes

fwiw vault has requested replacement and voting inactive doesn't help at all so ehhhh that iso doesn't really ping me either way

This is probably scum.

isn't the pro scum play here to just. bus Noraa and get LLD and misdirect LLD

I don't get scum motivation to sit on their hands on Noraa slot
they just bus Noraa with LLD impossible to marginalise now

isn't Lapsa a lurker as either align

A decent part of my Zdenek townread, looking to be one of my spicier reads atm, is that blatantly bad 'we should do this strategy' style posts come from newbtown from a good place (which I get in the tone of their follow ups to me in regard to it), not newbscum trying to fake content.

ehhhh

but the easiest way of fake content is a mech oriented approach

also this feels like a game which I can solve through PoE
murder/mush/Taylor/fidget/hopkirk
these are town slots

This is probably scum.

isn't the pro scum play here to just. bus Noraa and get LLD and misdirect LLD

This is what I feel like is happening with Pooky tbh. But this exactly why I want to just do Noraa and work off that. Like I said, let LLD work and sorry through it all later

This is what I feel like is happening with Pooky tbh. But this exactly why I want to just do Noraa and work off that. Like I said, let LLD work and sorry through it all later

murder you're scum reading Pooky?

im slightly opinionated by the pooky-taylor and am gunna reread again there, because that's not giving me any TvT gutvibes

but overall im still majorly town on Pooky for one of the pioneers of the Noraa wagon instead of someone like UNO, who is coasting it all through

murder you're scum reading Pooky?

It's more like there's a lot of worlds where Pooky is scum here, and I can see motivation for Pooky trying to get in early with me and LLD. Like I can easily see how Pooky could be scum, if that makes sense.

Also, FYI Pooky never gets the scroll today

As far as scum using LLD, If they were smart, they would steer clear of that

This is part of why I think Tayl0r is town

@shellyc

Whos inactive and whos voting them?

a lot of people

I was referring to hopkirk wanting vault

Isn't this the exact order you wanted to hear though? You picked 4 people you thought were obvtown, one slight town, and one suspicious (all reads you'd said) then Uno's order didn't conflict with that at all. What was your logic behind those specific 6 being the listing?

scum would want to shade consensus TRs and I wanted to find that in UNO

scum do not have a nightkill

the only way to get a nightkill is to sacrifice one of their members
thus in here they will have to give more effort to shade consensus TRs so they can miselim them at some point

Help me again.

[Bell]

zdenek is still trying to play in a way that credits himself as capable depending on how people flip.
For Pooky and Taylor he says they're both town which makes him look good later because they are.
1381 and 1382
Are killing me.

[Bell]

Shelly and Murdercat's interactions continue to bother me.
She fake town reads him in a way that she likes to do with her scum partners. It was extremely, extremely late.

1381 and 1382 reveal a secondary mindset that wifoms me to hell and back my brain literally rejected what she was saying here because of how confusing it is given where her partners were when said this.

[Bell]

Believe it not, being scum stresses me out more than being town.
Eventually I would just break down instead of trying harder.

[Bell]

It's a heavy cognitive load for me basically, I don't have the resilience really.
I'd have simply burnt out and my play would be more straight forward right now when it comes to elo play.

I would select someone, find a weakness of theirs and then push it all day and hope for the best. My play is less dynamic and fluid as scum.

[Bell]

I'm also a lot less imaginative, I solve less, I shirk work more than I usually would and I'm more involved in the narrative because I fake simulate a town Bell narrative in my head.
My interactions with my partners though?
Absolutely garbage. Probably the easiest way to read me is if I've talked to every player in the player list more than 3-5 times.

[Bell]

Because the mental effort has to be backed up with some sort of reward.
I don't get a dopamine hit for fooling people.
I do if I solve right though.

Another way to say it is that regardless of anything else we're creatures of cost-benefit analysis sometimes.

In this case the cost of playing well as scum versus town isn't the same as town versus scum.
Just motivationally I play mafia to solve and understand the intentions of others so I have more of an identity attachment too.

[Bell]

There's a reward waiting for me at the end that is equal to my effort here for town me regardless of who you throw the scroll at as long as I guess correctly and have the correct interpretation of events at the end.

No such reward exists for scum me.
I just don't get as excited or want to win as much as scum. I can even point to me saying this 2 or 3 times in other threads if you want.

[Bell]

I also don't think I can feel good about myself after how I played after Titus/DGB flipped and I'm trying to salvage that.

It made sense for me to get comfortable, but it was the wrong choice ultimately. Yes I had things to do, but I take heavy responsibility for us reaching elo in the first place.

I know you can think "well the power of scum friendship should motivate you" but that doesn't get more too far and frankly, I'm not great at faking a town perspective anyway.

[Bell]

?

you wouldn't feel any happiness from fooling me as scum here and winning it for your team?

No, not really. I don't get much of a kick out of fooling others.

[Bell]

It's not why the play the game.

[Bell]

I* play the game.

[Bell]

I guess out of relief, but not for fooling you specifically.
I'm one of those "i don't like making enemies" types and I think you need an enemy mindset to at least kind of enjoy it.
But maybe that's just because I'm a little vicious deep down so it feels necessary.

[Bell]

No I mean, I might feel good if I felt you were an enemy and therefore feeling good about getting one over on you.
But in general I actively avoid making enemies.

So that's more of a hypothetical.
I mean there has to be some reward to having enemies and winning against them or I don't know why anyone would bother making them.

[Bell]

okay, I giggled at that.
I'm town, so this feels silly to keep digging into.

I don't think so though, I am not the type to pull pranks on people.

[Bell]

I don't want to tut-tut friends either.
But perhaps that's because the people I get along with that play mafia and get fooled are not happy and seem to carry a sort of emotional scar with them it tends to make them more anxious the next time they're in a mafia game in elo too.
Probably more of a sign that they take it a little too seriously, but the brain's the brain and social interactions are pretty fascinating.

[Bell]

I play toward my win condition. As evidenced by my advocating for night killing FF and Cabd in our game and thinking (wrongly) that it would be a mistake to shoot S_S given a lack of reads in that game.
I have my own justifications for sticking out games where I roll scum. I take it as part of the cost of being allowed to play on this website with people and rolling town most of the time.

[Bell]

I don't think I'm going to solve this before deadline. How frustrating.

[Bell]

RN I still lean Noraa.
But I'm on page 60.

And I'm obviously vacillitating.

[Bell]

Murdercat's earlyposts are very unfortunate for town him.
His lack of effort early game bit him in the ass and I'm not sure how to weigh his absences against him in a manner that fits with reality one way over another.
I'll probably get a better handle on him as I push through to his more active midgame play.

it's entirely possible that Shelly's interactions with him and Noraa could both be scum I can't decide which possibility is more likely yet. Or not with comfort.
There's a lot of set up for a bus on Shelly.
But Murder's interactions with Shelly are somewhat innocuous and difficult to interpret. They look like weak sauce svs interactions.
She could have town read him to get him to leave her alone. Or she could have just found an excuse to town read him like she did earlier with Zdenek.

Yeah, I know, clock's ticking.

[Bell]

It's hard to truly interpret when someone knows you're town or not.

I spent like hours trying to figure out how Shelly Knew I was town in my other game and how it related to this one.

It's a discrepancy but I think everybody in this game has probably said something that could be interpreted as a scum slip or TMI.

For example, Shelly said she'd never played with me as town and I joke voted her because it implied she was scum in this game. But in a game a long ass time ago she lied in a similar way so I ended up weighing it heavily when she ended up flipping town in my other game because she had lied and had in fact play with me as town, I don't know why she lies about that stuff, but she dies. It's a weird tick.

[Bell]

I think it's more that there are more explanations.
A simple one is that he simply didn't have time to expand out to murder.
Even as town it takes awhile for me to interact with some players.

I also thought and *frankly still kind of think* that how Fred voted Noraa was very close to how I would vote her as scum on town. Which was part of my reason for clearing her.
I'm not sure if that was a moment of cleverness from scum Fred or not though.

[Bell]

ShellyC is the only scum that didn't really ignore Murder from my reread so far.
All of their interactions can be read as comfortable indolent Murder just being aware of Shelly and telling her what he thinks as blunt talk town.
But it also fits neatly into the scum Murder narrative of controlled interactions with a scum partner with some distancing intermingled.

[Bell]

I won't lie though Pooky, you're correct that the level of Shelly's scum play was leagues better than the rest of the initial (and fred's) scum game.

You can see it in how she preps all this bus stuff and then goes off and drops that wifom bomb on Hopkirk that double breaks my brain.

[Bell]

Sorry the rest of the flipped scum obviously not including Murder/Noraa one of whom is very good scum.
But more likely I am just very bad as town.

[Bell]

My problem with this is that it's just not uncommon for scum to ignore one town or another.
I can't interpret it with confidence is what I really mean.

[Bell]

VOTE: Noraa

Like I get where you and LLD and others are coming from, I just don't have that confidence in our ability to go S>T>S when we start with someone who is maybe scum

well how about we try it today and see how it works

then we can evaluate how well it worked and decide future strategy accordingly

I'm certainly not going to fight against it

Alright, I read the rules and the VCs.

My question is... why is the Noraa wagon so static without a counterwagon?

My question is... why is the Noraa wagon so static without a counterwagon?

Either it's the easiest miselm ever or scum bussed immediately because it went downhill too fast

Ok, someone explain how a scumkill be negated in this setup?

Are we presuming if we hit scum on the last round then it's negated?

Yes.

So effectively, we need to find two scums to end the day. Who is the consensus second? Have we been using HURT tags to indicate a preference?

My question is... why is the Noraa wagon so static without a counterwagon?

Either it's the easiest miselm ever or scum bussed immediately because it went downhill too fast

Those are usually the options. That's why I asked for the case on Noraa to determine which it was.

[Bell]

Additional: Murdercat is helpful.
But it might be busy work and an excuse to interact with partners in a way without truly interacting with them.

1580
Is an example, I think he also summarized the game for Vax and somebody else. Rather, it seems pretty non-discriminatory so it is very hard to tell.
I can be helpful like this as town too. Depends who I'm pretending to be that day.

[Bell]

Those are usually the options. That's why I asked for the case on Noraa to determine which it was.

I would sum up the case as this:
- Noraa had what looked like a fake town slip early on about the number of scum there are in the game
- When pressured, Noraa went into LAMIST content generation mode
- Noraa talked about passing the scroll to LLD, who is widely town read, out of spite. This looks like a setup to make it seem as if the blatant town kill isn't actually coming from scum to keep some confusion going into the 3rd flip.

This sounds like Noraa is just an angry emotional player. I'd be run up half my games with this standard. Do you not believe the case?

This sounds like Noraa is just an angry emotional player. I'd be run up half my games with this standard. Do you not believe the case?

I'm currently at about 70% chance of Noraa scum. The problem is that Noraa is an emotional player and did have a very strong emotional reaction. But I also respect her scum game enough to believe that she would use that in her favor and she recently said that she fakes townslips in all her scum games.

she recently said that she fakes townslips in all her scum games.

Where is this?

because you said in the postgame here:

viewtopic.php?p=12236870#p12236870

that you fake townslips as scum, and

Isis are you allowed to tell us how many scum there are?

looks like a faked townslip.

I don't really believe you didn't read the first page of the setup and dont know how many scum there are.

In the future, I'd still love to see hurt tags as a secondary vote.

We have been avoiding this to avoid giving scum info about who to kill, as they can choose townies who won't kill them. Whether or not you agree with that approach.

because you said in the postgame here:

viewtopic.php?p=12236870#p12236870

that you fake townslips as scum, and

Isis are you allowed to tell us how many scum there are?

looks like a faked townslip.

I don't really believe you didn't read the first page of the setup and dont know how many scum there are.

I want to vote Noraa after that, but I don't want to end the day. I'm not a big fan of meta usually but when it's self prescribed then...

I want to vote Noraa after that, but I don't want to end the day.

It is worth noting that we keep all the time left on the deadline when we pass a scroll. We just add 2 days to it

Oh ok.

VOTE: Noraa

[Bell]

Titus poker face. in 1595.
Ugh.

[Bell]

Additional: Murdercat is helpful.
But it might be busy work and an excuse to interact with partners in a way without truly interacting with them.

This is the easiest thing to fake as scum and I do it all the time, sorry. I do it as part of my town game and am aware of it

Thanks for sharing.

[Bell]

Nah, it's just joke.

I have muay thai class in 26 minutes.

How much time do we have left?

[Bell]

We have 23 hours.
That's not as horrible as I thought.

[Bell]

and currently i want to vote adorable the scroll

do you think noraa was bussing adorable, if you SR noraa?

More bus info.

I got eliminated in three of my games this week so I'll have a lot more time to dedicate to this game. An hour ago I started ISOing and currently I have a read on everyone ... until I got lazy at the end but I might finish it up tomorrow. Have an unfinished reads list. I efforted these quite a bit so please set some time aside to read it. I am finally not overgamed(I had 9 games going on but 1 ended and I just got eliminated in 3 others recently so I finally have a clearer view on everything)

Reads incoming in a few minutes.

A read for everyone here(I did it by ISO as to make my job much easier otherwise I would've gotten a headache reading the whole entire thread). No one gets excluded

Adorable

Spoiler:

post 244 is this slots opening post and to be absolutely and brutally honest, I still do not like it. Generally, when I see a post sussing me while I'm under a lot pressure, I will never like it but I have taken a hot break and I still don't like it. This means that it's no longer a "I was being emotional" type of thing but rather a much more fair and solid read. "Not understanding why I am being defensive" is a really interesting thing to say here. The reason is that 1)newbies are always defensive. Regardless of my wins/losses, I am a newbie with a little over 2 months of time on ms and that is a fact no one can question. 2)rather than asking why I am being defensive which many people have already pointed out, just state whether its town indicative or scum indicative from your pov. That all aside, I think I am not that convinced this slot is scum anymore. Every single post from this user oozes newbtells. There are 0 independent arguments and every argument is some sort of OMGUS(ie SR on Uno and SR on me). I relate to this on a spiritual level. No matter how many people are sussing me(pressure doesn't matter, any amount will suffice), I will legit just OMGUS the fuck out of them. I always try to justify it otherwise but really ... let's talk facts. Im a noob. I hate pressure. I OMGUS. This is my form of self protection and tho it looks stupid/scummy, it is what it is for now. I hope for that to change as well since it really doesn't help with scum hunting but I can't really do anything about it rn cuz I haven't progressed past the point where I stop caring about pressure and just do my own thing. My reads are still heavily influenced by pressure. This is proven in all of my town games (if anyone wants straight up evidence, I can provide it) This slot oozes newb and reminds me a lot of myself except less active(a lot less active actually). Throwing away all of my SRs on this slot for now. Hot take this slot is just

newbtown

.

Bell

Spoiler:

first glance over and this slot has a lot of LAMISTing(ie posts 125, 139, 520, etc). I think that's slightly scum indicative bc, I generally don't say a lot of that type of stuff as town but I think it could just be play style and im too lazy to meta dive you. I really liked your defense of me at the beginning tho. It was very reasonable and I believe that if I was seeing a newbie slot get tunneled like this, I would also reply like that. I really like the courage there bc I do believe that getting involved in things like this and disagreeing with people taking up town leader positions can often result in you getting thrown straight under the bus. Generally, when I am NOT the person getting tunneled, I have zero fear as town so I think zero fear is town indicative. Indecisiveness(imo) is also for the most part, town indicative. You had a lot of hmm is Noraa scum? Nah maybe they are town. Or maybe they are scum. Etc, etc. This reminds me of my pms with mods when I am a pr. It literally looks like this:

Noraa shoots blah

. Wait wait no

Noraa shoots other blah

. Wait actually no

Noraa shoots other other blah

. Wait no no no

Noraa shoots other blah

. Wait wait wait wait wait

Noraa shoots other other blah

. Argh sorry mod

Noraa shoots other blah

. final decision

Noraa shoots blah

(that was the first decision ) Indecisiveness, though it is slightly a personality trait for me, is generally town indicative. I find myself so much more certain and less flip floppy when scum yet I have so many doubts and lots of paranoia as town. Also one post that asked if I normally post reads lists early in the game was really good cuz thats like investigating in on some meta and stuff. Your a bit fencesitty about your SRs(I can provide examples if asked) but thats generally how I am as well. I've been trying to actually just stick to one read lately but that ends up biting me in the ass a lot of the times too so idk. still trying to find a balance. You remind me a lot of myself sometimes as well. I want to say this slot is likely

town

for now.

Fidget

Spoiler:

Post 36 and 290 scare me. Unlike Bell whose whole play here has been LAMIST-y, your's doesn't stay LAMIST. only the entrance is lamist and that is really scary. I always think first impressions are the most important(ironic cuz I blew mine but nonetheless, I do think this) One of my pretty close online friends once told me that no matter what, everyone will always remember the first impression you left on them. Whether or only subconsciously or like it was just yesterday depends on the person. When you come in with that super LAMIST entrance but then drop it immediately, I get really worried you are just faking a really town look first and dropping it and relaxing once you realize the pressure all got sucked away into a Noraa vortex of doom. You really only talk about me. Every post somehow relates to me. Your reads on everyone have something to do with me. Meaning you are doing 100% preflip analysis and every single read is only true if I flip red. I 100% see that as a hohoho guys I have reads that are all based on Noraa flipping red. And AHA when she flips green, I can just be like ana oop turns out preflip analysis aint that hot eh. Excuse me for not having reads now cuz horrible Noraa lead me astray with her terrible awful playstyle. Most of your posts are 100% sheeping/buddying(ie posts 296(buddying LLD), all the isis buddying, 1265(buddying mush)) or 100% preflip analysis. No posts directly scream preflip analysis but its very clear that she is basically everything off of a red Noraa flip and when that doesn't happen, nothing she says she can't take back. I think this slot is

scum

aorn.

Flea

Spoiler:

I don't have much to say here but I think overall, I agree with literally almost every single post from this user. Well, I ... conditionally agree. Meaning if I was a townie watching myself get tunneled in the current situation, I would have basically the exact same thoughts as Flea as town but VERY different thoughts as scum. As scum, I would just push myself and pocket LLD. This means win/win for scum cuz they aren't even gonna get any SRs for jumping on cuz I was legitimately just playing scummy as fuck, being defensive as fuck, and just failing so badly at obvtowning. Plus pocketing LLD = a big shield that is right in front of you at all times cuz a bigger presence is much more noticeable and will get blamed more likely regardless of alignment. By far the most similar person to me.

TR

.

Gloria

Spoiler:

zero content. absolute lurker. two posts. I hate policy lims but if we are doing one, this is the slot to do it on. that may sound mean but I highly doubt we will get anything out of this slot if they continue with whatever they are doing and im always really paranoid that lurkers are scums cuz if they don't talk, ya can't sort. And if they be scum, ya still can't sort :/ This slot is a big question mark and a

null

.

Hopkirk

Spoiler:

I got lazy. Interpreting what all the verse meant got tiring after a literal 2 posts. I'm going to throw you in the

null

for now. I'll sort you as the day goes on.

LLD

Spoiler:

I can't sort this slot fairly because I literally want this slot to be scum so much that I don't even know what my read is anymore.

Lapsa

Spoiler:

I cannot follow anything of your progressions. I see zero progression in fact. But I feel like I'm obligated to give you a null cuz I gave Gloria a null and there's not a huge difference. Yeah, you 100% seem more opportunistic but I mean its unfair cuz Gloria hasn't said anything about the game and thats worse imo.

Null but scum lean

. None of your votes are justified and you don't engage anyone.

Murder

Spoiler:

Pretty annoyed at this slot atm. I hate that someone that has legit played a whole game with town!me and knows that im a big baby when it comes to not being stubborn, won't hear me out. He claims he engages me and shit but every time it reads to me like "Just fucking accept you are dead bitch. Now calm your ass and solve the whole game for me if you are town. If you don't, then ur scum" I feel forced to give reads but then you just come around and are like "oop well it doesn't matter cuz ur dead meat anyways" When Mush says it, it's different. You know why? Because mush understands that I fucked up but is unwilling to save me. You, on the other hand are basically pressuring me to give reads, pressuring me to not be antitown when I am mad, and constantly just being like "stop being mad noraa. ur dying anyways" That logic doesn't click with me and constantly just repeating the same damn thing to me isn't gonna get you whatever tf it is that you want from me. All you are gonna do is make me MAD. I'm throwing you in my SRs because I believe that town!you would see the town in me considering I am the exact same stubborn and stupid that I was in Roses. You aren't not seeing it. You know it is true but you know I am an easy lim as scum so you are pushing me hard. Thats the best I can interpret your play this game. I think you are

scum

.

Mush

Spoiler:

town

asf. there is no question. your play is 1000000% the same as the last game I was in with you where you were town and I was scum. It's a shame the one game I get to be the same alignment, I fucked myself over.

Pooky

Spoiler:

I don't know. I have trouble reading slots with this playstyle. Jokes can only go so far before they start looking like absolute trolling. I sincerely do not know and have flip flopped multiple times on you. I think I will throw you in the

null

.

Shelly

Spoiler:

ok I struggle with reading shelly and get really paranoid bc she has fooled me all the way before. In roses, I was hard tunneling her slot but she replaced in and I got really paranoid but then was like hmmm these reactions are townie. I ended up dropping the SR and untunneled. She coasted a tiny bit and threw me all the way off. I ended up tunneling elsewhere and almost drove a mislim when she was the last scum. This game, I've gotten quite some scum vibes. The problem is that based on my knowledge from playing with her, when she seems town, she is scum. When she seems scum, she is town. But in the Roses mafia pt, she said that she knew a lot of the players and was going to not play her normal scum game and now im extremely paranoid. I think you are scummy bc of all the buddying up to LLD, all the weird interaction with Bell(if that interaction was SvT, I think you are the scum), also bc of some really weak reasoning(ie post 68) I am absolutely paranoid and I currently still somewhat believe my read is correct so this is a

SR

Taylor

Spoiler:

town

asf. exact reasons as mush. anyone SRing, should meta dive. It's clear she is town. no question at all. I've learned to trust you, Taylor. The reason is that .... you don't really lie to be absolutely honest. I can explain this once its legal otherwise it breaches ongoing game rules so currently I cannot yet.

Theta

Spoiler:

Agreed with Isis on a TR here but flipped a few times and now this slot's

null

. Also im getting tired so the rest of the explanations r gonna be shorter. Edit: they basically dne

Titus/VaultDweller

Spoiler:

VaultDweller I had a scum lean/scumread on. Titus ... eh. Seems to be efforting more than normal. I have trouble reading replacements right away ... they throw me off. I'd like to re-sort this slot later so I'll lower the SR to a

null

for the time being

Toogeloo

Spoiler:

idk

null

for now

Uno

Spoiler:

idk

null

for now

Vaxkiller/Isis

Spoiler:

idk

null

for now

Zdenek

Spoiler:

idk

null

for now

I might go in and finish up the last few ISOs tomorrow but rn im tired. Im going to bed and they r gonna stay null for now.

This reads feel so generic though. Or like a lot of text but significantly less pay off.

noraa wim so high

Truth.

I agree with Fidget that Noraa has played more like scum than murder has in elo. From my POV. She's a lot more awkward.

[Bell]

There are all these scum tone shifts around Noraa.

Titus used a poker face when she voted Noraa, like she didn't want to give anything away.

When I asked ShellyC why she was trying to derail the noraa wagon, her tone changed. As well.

How zdenek refused to vote Noraa initially but jumped on somebody else for backing off because they must've been scum buddies while in general Zdenek seemed to what to seem like he knew what he was doing makes me think that Zdenek's attitude points toward scum Noraa.

[Bell]

Who is Titus?

I went and found the post. It took me legit like three hours bc I didnt ISO ... I just read the entire dang thread

Spoiler:

This post was written Friday night. I didn't check the thread until after shelly was hammered and didn't read up until my full reread on the game that night.

Rereading the entire thread here are my thoughts:

Datisi putting pressure on me over me saying he needed to justify his vote if it wasn't a rvs vote is strange. It's very strange bc in general votes need to be justified and putting pressure on a newb and making them feel like they weren't supposed to ask is just not rubbing the right way. Questioning my use of the terms antitown and scummy was definitely strange as well. Datisi's whole "let Bm look like the one tunneling while adding some pressure on Noraa "was a really really strange approach that doesn't strike me as towny ngl.


Bm being condescending and provocative doesn't seem to be AI. I meta dived or technically I literally read like the tiniest bit of his first game on site back in 2007 and people called him condescending and provocative. I think this may just be personality/playstyle so as much as I'm still a bit salty, I will try to be open minded about this when rereading.

Bob came in and joined in putting pressure on me. So alright I admit after the first few days of day one, I in a way, kinda stopped trying. I felt greatly discouraged and honestly just wanted to replace out. However rereading I personally do not think I was being antitown or scummy at the time as I had not given up on the game that early. So anyone that joined in putting pressure on me is definitely in my slight scum lean list.

Bm's whole thing about not liking to lie and not caring about anyone's opinion except his own is a strange post to make day 1. It's just very .... strange and I dont understand why scum or town would say something like this tbh.

So Bob continues to be active but not inputting much useful info. It seems he is siding with bm in the bmvnoraa thing but is mostly dealing in fluff anyways. he is not trying to get too involved and is trying to extend rvs in a way.

Mena popping in and saying BmvNoraa, something that happened in the first 5 pages, is TvS is VERY scummy. I absolutely hate that. It almost feels like scum TMIing and trying to set up two mislims bc they know both bm and I are town. If bm is Mena's scum partner, he wouldn't say that. this is why Mena and BM aren't scum together imo. Mena's flipflopping between me and bm is concerning as well.

Post #166 was when I started giving up. Everything before post 166 was when I believe I was giving this game my normal which is a ton a ton of attention and thought. After this I was considering just lurking or replacing out because I was pretty upset about how things were playing out and felt low-key bullied over nothing cuz as I said, I gave it my normal and the responses I got weren't nice especially from bm. Btw dont tell me wanting to lurk or replace out is scummy bc I seriously was upset about it. I have zero games, finished or ongoing where I actively lurk. My post counts are generally the highest and I'm spammy as hell normally. This game truly upset me and there's nothing more to that.

Taylor comes in and immediately takes my side which I can definitely see as trying to pocket. Taylor has been in games with me and I think anyone thats been in a game with me before can 100% tell that I was actually quite upset. And since I'm a pretty emotionally driven person, when I'm upset is the perfect time for scum to come pocket.

Back to Mena. Mena's Fos on BM just looks OMGUSy to me. The change to me isn't well justified either. I think the flip floppiness is actually a town tell as the entire thing was quite confusing if I do say so myself. towns reaction should be confusion imo. I was in it myself so I got a different view on things but I think a normal townies reaction should be to be confused. Mena is in my town book for townie confusion.

Post 199 feels town. Taylor was JKer in one of the games I finished with her. I'm getting the same vibes from there here so Taylor is in my early town book as well for meta reasons. Another thing is that Taylor seems quite a bit emotionally driven this game and that is 100% a town tell for her.

Piis entrance strikes me as town here. The post covers a little bit of everything, had some good reasons, didn't tunnel or focus on anything specifically yet, and had a nice summary. Pii in my early town book as well for this very towny sounding first post.

TGP's entrance is a terrible look. It reeks of scumminess. TGP thinks tunneling is scummy whereas I actually am fairly certain that tunneling is actually something town unintentionally does. TGP also calls me confident when all of my reads are very uncertain and very not confident. I feel like this is scum just twisting everything up to make some scumtells out of nothing.

Shelly I honestly felt was pretty scummy this round but I will not state anything on her since we already got a flip and she was town.

Alonzo is one of the people that caught my attention even in my ~salty~ phase and still is in my town book. The reasoning is that most his perspectives I think are much more likely to come from town than scum. The mena SR coming in wasn't scummy bc scums easiest thing to do is choose one out of {Bm, Noraa} and yeet them to hell. Alonzo's unvote soon after makes me really like thinking of that slot as town bc I also started off SRing mena but then TRing.

Teacher's entrance is a load of fluff which is an interesting take considering we moved out of rvs pretty fast and he was a bit late entering. The more you see of teacher, the more towny he seems. He moves into good questions really fast and almost all of his questions prompt or try to prompt good discussion that move the game forward. Town book. Strong TR.

Ico's entrance was ... interesting and gave me a null read on them but then their switch from mena to me and then off of me was very scummy. I felt like Ico came in and tried to pocket me(defends me all over the place despite saying they didn't want to take a defensive stance on me) but then realized I was great limbait and decided to start setting me up to be the day 1 lim. Ico pushes that NoraavBM is TvT but then flips and calls me scum. Idk I dont like the flip flopping.

Datisi focuses on me too much. His ISO reflects it and I find it scummy. It looks like very low-key tunneling that hidden really well.

iamausername is a null read. Idk not much to say there. Their reads r interesting takes and I generally agree with them but I'm not feeling immense towniness here so I think they belong in null.

Bob lurks a lil. cherry picks interesting things to reply to.

Datisi tunnels quite a bit imo. I think he'll go to my town lean for that.

TGP's switch from Noraa to BM is terrible. I hatehatehatehate. Switch to shelly over one post is scummy as well. Sheeps some newbtown reads on me. Strong SR now. Backtracks and says the TR on me is weak and I basically shouldn't question it otherwise it'll disappear. The post was a bit of a "threat" TGP is also very fence sitty as shown in post 650.

Bob clings to BMvNoraa. Reasserts my slight scum lean. He never tries to solve anything else.

see posts like 630 are why I dislike BM.

I admit I got a bit tired rereading so I ended up skimming a lot of the in between pages. 84 pages is a lot and it took me ~3 hours to read it all even when more than half was skimmed.

Scum:

Ico, Bob, Datisi, BM, TGP (in no particular order)

Null:

Iamausername

Town:
Mena, Taylor, Pii/Bunno, Alonzo, Teacher (in no particular order)


Most scum: TGP(even tho their posts got better later)

Most town: Alonzo/Teacher

Added on Sunday:
Holy fuck that flash wagon on Taylor... y'all literally hammered before I took one look at the thread. I logged onto ms and saw mod's pm that day 2 had started, checked the thread and it was locked. I thought mod hadn't opened thread yet until I saw the thread was night phase and Taylor was limmed in a literal 3 pages or something. Bm is confscum so that's our lim today but even tho its decided, we have to talk things thru bc we already mislimmed twice and wasted away day 2's time. We can't let scum!BM self hammer and waste our discussion time.

This link weirds me out because that wall is so much more nuanced and engaged then the one she wrote in this game. I don't understand why scum her would look a non-flattering comparison though.
I did not read this when she originally posted this. rip.

[Bell]

You took umbridge at least in part on the idea you were going to be killed and that it wasn't fair for the reasons you were being killed rather than because you weren't scum.

This morphed later into a more natural argument and you did start making appeals to fear at the peak of your anger at LLD.
Also, ngl, ngl. Your promises that you were good in elo isn't really coming out here.

But birthday, sick, bad circumstances etc.
bleh.

[Bell]

Please stop reacting in a way that doesn't make any sense to me.

I am stating that you have good reasons for not being at your best here as town or scum.

[Bell]

Noraa's reads so far from my catch up are like child scribbles compared to the wall post she made in that other game and linked here.
I don't know why she linked it if there would be so much dissonance, there is a clean comparison and...

mrgh.

[Bell]

I feel like in the interest of what Murder did by being honest and letting me know that he does in fact act as helpful town as scum.

I will say that I did have one good game as scum where I was killed by town for being too townie.
They removed all my sin and I needed sin to live in that game. >.> It was a game mechanic.

[Bell]

Noraa's reads so far from my catch up are like child scribbles compared to the wall post she made in that other game and linked here.
I don't know why she linked it if there would be so much dissonance, there is a clean comparison and...

mrgh.

Gloria asked for where I had made walls as town elsewhere. That was where. But that game I was a vigilante that shot two prs so ..... clearly my strategy that game didn't work :/

So you decided to have more generic reads this game? I don't get it. People don't lose a degree of detail just because they missed two vig shots. We take what we can from each game but I don't think we straight up simplify in that manner as you've done here in reaction to it. /:

[Bell]

No.

[Bell]

I dunno in this game there really is just an amazing amount of me dunking on scum for no reason. Esp when me interacting with my partners is not my strength. Even in that game where I was too townie to be scum (but was actually scum) my interactions with them I and I think most other people would agree could classify as good.

[Bell]

could not be classified as good*

[Bell]

Great Noraa,
MC.

Please Kill each other with words. I'm trying but I need help since, for whatever reason it's obviously noraa, but it actually isn't obviously Noraa. Because Murderkitty had unfortunate lukewarm interactions with a lot of scum so far on reread. It took longer than it usually does for Elo town Bell to get to this point and I don't have a vote like I usually do.
But at least it seems like I rerouted a catastrophic loss to a 50/50.

[Bell]

Question for anyone: Is there an overwhelming majority of players who think Noraa is scum or is there just an overwhelming majority of players who think LLD is going to make sure Noraa dies soon so aren't putting in too much effort?

nah noraaaaaaaa's obvscum

Question for anyone: Is there an overwhelming majority of players who think Noraa is scum or is there just an overwhelming majority of players who think LLD is going to make sure Noraa dies soon so aren't putting in too much effort?

nah noraaaaaaaa's obvscum

There's way too much evidence to let her live, I guess it depends on your definition of obv scum? The thing is I think she is genuinely upset and I feel bad, but scum can also be upset for being caught early. I think it's like 70% she is scum.

And I thought I was late to that particular party.

But like, why is this the game I literally get free town reads from post 2? The game where getting

miselimed is fun and I didn't want to have to make hard decisions late in the game

For me it's largely pattern recognition and the positions you're choosing to take. On the other hand, maybe you're just really good at dropping town tells as scum. But if so, good job!

You are an alt right? I'm curious if you knew me from 2016.

I'd like to think I am good at this, but I don't think I would last that long with this list.

The difference between scum reading you as town and town reading you as town?

Probably

Bold 1. +1 woops I rolled scum narrative.
Bold 2. Potential scum slip. I'm not sure how to read this other than "You're an alt, but I don't think I'm going to live for very long as scum with this list"
Bold.3. Some vague shit right there.

[Bell]

Great Noraa,
MC.

Please Kill each other with words. I'm trying but I need help since, for whatever reason it's obviously noraa, but it actually isn't obviously Noraa. Because Murderkitty had unfortunate lukewarm interactions with a lot of scum so far on reread. It took longer than it usually does for Elo town Bell to get to this point and I don't have a vote like I usually do.
But at least it seems like I rerouted a catastrophic loss to a 50/50.

There is nothing I can do, Pooky said I convinced him, he is going with his gut anyway. He won't listen to me if I produce scum Noraa emotional posts, either he has to go through it himself or one of you does.

It's still not bell

I'm not really doing this to salvage a win from this mess tho. I just feel guilty that I let scum get this far. So I want to try to rectify it or at least do as much as I can to try to rectify it. I can't control what Pooky does, I can only control what I do and how I see myself.

[Bell]

VOTE: Pooky

Say something other than this 1 v 1.

Fidget covered this. But this seems like a good excuse as any to jump off the wagon. Not clear if not wanting to be on a town wagon or not wanting to bus.

Did you ever do this or nah?

Yes. I'm still in the "don't share too much" mode because I think I'm pretty widely town read and I'm likely a contender for a scroll when scum is hit. So as long as that's true and I've expressed who I want to flip and others agree (Noraa), I'm chilling.

Townie attitude. Is what I felt at the time. Could easily just be not wanting to fake solve when they're comfortable being a universal town read and can get away with it, but scum rarely ever take this tack tbh.

readslist time

near conftown: LLD/Mush/Taylor
townie: hopkirk/

Murder

/pooky/fidget
townlean: adorable/theta/

titus

null: inactives/isis or whoever that is nowadays
scumlean: Toogeloo/UNO
scumread: bell
near confscum:

noraa

p-edit no we are not having a misunderstanding, I agree with the contents of that post

Hey MURDERCAT, Hectic knows how jealous I am of his adorable cat, no point trying to pretend I'm not, so I'm going to be blunt. If you want to sheep me from now on instead of Lady I've got a slot open.

I have left "blindly sheep a town read mode" unfortunately. I know the only thing I'm posting right now is me trying to engage with Noraa (which I have officially given up on), but I do actually have some deeper thoughts. But it's still my opinion that we are clogging the thread and the time post pass is more valuable.

Not wrong.

Sorry, why is uno scum?

i dont have the WIM to do a full casing rn but uno basically tried and maximise townred through SR on noraa and seemingly wanting a lot of credit for it, the positioning around noraa was pretty bus-y, and their play today is trying to poke questions at me without actually solving or making conclusions

More +++ Bus set up.
What an absolutely ginormous house of cards to collapse for one miselimination.

[Bell]

I thought you were in the Noraa 3rd camp, ok then nevermind I guess.

I was at first, but thought more deeply about it and have been noraa first since then

If it looks like it's not going that way and there's a wagon I support I'll obviously fall in line, but I still want Noraa first for now.

Like thoughts on Unowen/Bell/Toogeloo or something. Slots scum doesn't shoot.

Of those three, I doubt the panda most

@Noraa - I'm online and going through stuff and want to interact with you a bit in real time. Idk if I'm starting to buy that 'hard effortposting Noraa' on the last five or so pages feels like town. Can you describe how you feel scum you would react in this scenario (basically to this whole game). literally just shoot me up with a post full of AOE? Also, please don't shoot Lady. I know you don't like their play this game, but it's a town slot and really doesn't have the influence you think.

No. I cannot at all know what I would do as scum here. I'm an unpredictable player. Literally can't even read myself or understand why I do half the things I do as town. My best guess would be that as scum, I'd be pushing some LHF or Taylor hard rn. The reason for pushing LHF is obvious. Those are easy to mislim and as long as someone else is already on that LHF, I can just hide in the shadows and give it a small push. The reason for pushing Taylor is because I can say she is scum TMI-ing. I have actually thought about that this game that maybe she really was scum TMI-ing but Mush had the exact same thought process and I highly doubt the scum team has both of them. Town me wouldn't push her because 1)she TRs me and that makes me feel too bad to SR her and 2)I feel like at least someone believes me
scum me would likely deflect to her right now bc I can, as murder said, I can justify it by saying something like "eyyy this be scum TMI-ing"

Btw you are trying so hard to shift attention that it makes me think ur a big hypocrite. You talk to me exactly like how Murder does except you yourself have been tunneled by LLD before. In fact, you panicked quite a bit when the pressure on you was legit the tiniest speck of dust compared to the pressure placed on me. And I take it you aren't even a noob. Take some time and think about a town!noraa situation cuz you aren't. You are just going with the flow and sussing me when I 100% feel like if LLD had gone thru with the tunneling, you would be dead meat rn. Think about how it feels to have people just be like "Stop fighting. I don't give a shit that you try hard. You're dead now stfu" If you are town, you should be able to understand why I am reacting the way I am.

On this day and _____ that has ended except mod hasn't checked thread yet
so thats two scum games that I promised reads yet never really gave them a high efforted one like promised

Eh, my enduring memory from On This Day is that you kept swinging way after everyone had confirmed-scum you and in _______ you certainly did make a read list despite being done for, it is etched in my mind as about 20% of the reason I got paranoid at the end. I suppose they were not as substantial as this game though.

Q: Why did you think that I should not view you as scum in this game based on the games we have played (at the point you asked me)?

So tell me Uno. On this day was bad right? I was widely SRed and went down really fast.
But then after 2 entire scum games, I went into So many bats and what happened? I was widely TRed. If it weren't for a weak fn targeting me, do you really think I would've died that fast? My playstyle got so much better and I literally fooled everyone to hell and back. You really think it would get twenty billion times worse this fast? I literally 100% of the time make it to endgame if I am scum unless someone guilties me. Does that really not say something about my scum game?

My town game is bullshit compared to my scum game. It is very obvious. Uno you should know. Plus this may be a bad argument but like ... you really think all three games you play with me I will be scum? No. I think you are just being paranoid like duppin. Sure, both games he SRed me in(that have finished), I was scum. But I absolutely think it was paranoia against me that resulted in those. My scum game gets me universally TRed. My town game gets me universally SRed. I think its very clear what's up.

Sorry, why is uno scum?

i dont have the WIM to do a full casing rn but uno basically tried and maximise townred through SR on noraa and seemingly wanting a lot of credit for it, the positioning around noraa was pretty bus-y, and their play today is trying to poke questions at me without actually solving or making conclusions

..................................................................................
I read shelly wrong in roses and whatever the one that just finished was called(ffery modded it)
But ... I'm getting a lot of scum vibes. These aggressive pushes on me remind me a ton of scum!shelly tunneling. The prob is that I thought shelly was scum in the game ffery modded for tunneling my slot but she was a JKer :/
I want to hear some cases on shelly bc there are times where I am certain she is an alignment but this one isn't one of those....

i'd swap fidget -> zdenek in your solve but the rest of this seems quite solid

p-edit: why re you so confident in lld's ability to find scum

Supportive scum Shellyc tactic #2.

explain please I don't understand

I disagree. I think every situation where I am town, I have hope. I even normally think that as scum but I believe in it more as town is all.

Town can fuck up and fix it imo. Thats how I always think about it.

Pooky called you out on a meta tell, then LLD swung hard at you.

pookys meta tell was me saying in a finished game that I fake town slips as scum. Wow so? I was TRed in that game for some reasons like not knowing how many votes to kill. It wasn't even a townslip. I legitimately did not know. Like I just don't pay attention and that really doesn't say anything towards my alignment.

LLD swung hard at me. Yeah. But like scum!me would likely just lay low for a bit and watch town tear itself up, come back and jump on a wagon.

Your entire defense is to constantly talk about your own meta. You know that doesn't work, right?

no it does. bc it is consistent and I am too green to manipulate meta

I laid low and let town kill off its people. I hammered my buddy and then I high efforted only at the very very end bc I saw the limpool was {me, gamma} and gamma was being really quiet. I saw an opportunity to high effort and win the game so I did that.
It's day 1. I don't high effort this early in any scum game no matter what. All 4 of my scum games have basically zero effort until day 3 and on, except the one where I got guiltied and died day 2 >:(

Noraa you are clearly trying to say anything you can to save yourself and it looks scummy. There is no reason for town to ever act like you are acting. Unfortunately I think you might still do this as town. I trust the self meta from OOG more than self meta from within this game.

Its self meta, yes
but isn't pooky using something that I commented about myself against me?

I'm mentally burning out but if I stop I'll never solve this game before it's over.

This is problematic. I think the toogoloo interaction feels very familiar and is a town+ Noraa point.
Even though MC addressed this I still can't see this as much other than lowering the boat on town Noraa. I do think her insistence on being town would phase him and slowly effect his trajectory here though. Which it did.

Both ShellyC and Murder ignored me on the Shellyc read until this point. Murdercat explained it as lowering commentary given his position and thoughts. I don't think her curiosity here helps me understand which would be more likely.

[Bell]

The point is that you are using examples to try to stay alive, which is exactly what you would do as scum. You have a motivation as scum to try to lead people in a certain direction. Your comment about fake town slips did not have that same bias, it was made in post game where there would be no motivation to lie. This is why self-meta is bad and I know you know it's bad. No one is going to not vote for you due to self-meta in this game. Your AtE on me will not work either.

no motivation to lie

I said I fake town slipped in every single scum game so far. When that game ended, i had 2 finished scum games. What I said wasn't even self meta. If was pure facts that you would know if you had read the games. So really I don't see why that can be used against me but I can't use self meta.

I definitely feel like Hopkirk saw what happened to me and is genuinely terrified of LLD. Theres quite a bit of desperate pocketing happening here.

This is the first thing that could *maybe* be construed as making her look goofy depending on Hopkirks' flip. It's more a character attack, which I think is quite normal when people are under a lot of pressure. They reach out and grab people and sort of share the pain as town, which is really...Impressive for scum her. *sigh*

I ask you to look at my pov(as you say "get into someones head") but instead you just come buddy the biggest personality in the thread. Smart but also maybe scum.

Fence meet Noraa.

I've already found the perfect straying point. I plan to have a quick deep dive into lady's thoughts and perspectives on relationships. This feels like a great starting point where we can begin to build a better, more cooperative and sustainable working relationship.

Keep an eye on the cuteness thread hopkirk, I think we can get somewhere with this

That's actually sketchy?

Watch and wait.

Yeah like I don't blame anyone for not reading, but actively reading and not posting looks weird

Decides to give a take.

Yeah ... that was concerning. Lapsa has posted like 2 things but replies faster than I check this thread(which is a very fast speed for the most part)

. This is a weird post. You see this is what sucks. Murdercat seems like scum for watching and waiting and then Noraa makes this post which reads like a politician with all this finangling of grammar to not push at Lapsa too hard.

I believe this is standard lapsa play IIRC from long ago

Helpful murdercat.

I saw on Noraa's recent reads list she put me as newbtown and I find this strange she still leaves her vote on me.

@Theta You never responded to #1658 and your theory looks really weird. shelly said on #347 Noraa hates bussing.

I forgot about that
UNVOTE:

Bleh.

I believe this is standard lapsa play IIRC from long ago

So it’s entirely NAI then?

I'm sure others would have a more informed opinion

Political again, but it's the correct thing to say here and doesn't have much to do with the game. Or rather I feel like I couldn't tell the difference between having the correct stance here as an excuse to hide their position or if they're just like, "I don't want to reach"

can I get someone to explain a read on them?

My sense of panda is that he is doing exactly what is be doing as scum, hence my nervousness

explain?

How Noraa asks these questions pings me as slightly off. It reminds me of Zdenek and Shelly's. Scum sometimes fail to see what town are seeing and these sorts of open ended questions can help them to see opportunities for miseliminations.

I'm gonna go finish up my read cuz I got lazy and didn't do the last four ISOs. Brb.

can I get someone to explain a read on them?

My sense of panda is that he is doing exactly what is be doing as scum, hence my nervousness

explain?

Setup talk, complaining about pages and using it as an excuse to be kind of lurky, going with the flow and finding easy votes, etc. Could also be town of course, just pointing it out.

Feels like a comfortable list. It's shade, but it's sort of like "hey look, I'm paying attention as town here" and doesn't sound like "well I can rattle off a list of generic reasons here"
I do think there's a level of uncertainty to MC here that points to town him.

I finished the rest of my reads:

Toogeloo

Spoiler:

post 102 was really interesting. If this is one of the reasons why Murder susses this slot then I'll agree. This post is interesting because I agree with it BUT I feel like it takes towncred to another level. It just strikes me 100% as one of the posts to post if you need towncred. As I mentioned in Fidget's read, first impressions are super important and ones that are too LAMISTy do rub me the wrong way. The whole interaction with me about vault dweller was interesting. I take it you didn't agree with my read on that slot but I mean, gut pings are gut pings. Sometimes they can't be justified and I drop them after a while but sometimes they can so I keep them.This explanation you asked for and when I replied, you had no follow ups. If you truly thought I was scum at the time, why wasn't there a question like eyy so this scum over here is deflecting to a lurker slot rn? Post 897 was concerning. The tone was very strange and I got the feeling that you knew I was town. The tone didn't strike right the first time I read that post but I remember forgetting to actually comment that at the time but now, looking back, the tone is still strange. Sometimes I'm overnparanoid tho so I'd like to hear some other people's opinions on the tone of this specific post please. You pushed for a lim really early on in the game. In fact I believe you pushed even earlier than porky or LLD. My wagon grew really fast in 1 singular rl day and you immediately tried to push it thru. I actually didn't notice this too much first time thru bc I was under a shit ton of pressure but its def worrisome. I think I'm gonna put you at a

scum lean

because I relate on a spiritual level to all the posts complaining about how fast this thread blew up(ik ik ironic cuz I'm a hyper poster but after the first day, I woke up to like 20 pages or something:/)

Uno

Spoiler:

My only problem with this slot is that he keeps sheeping the consensus SR on me while sheeping my previous SR on adorable. Besides that, this seems like an uno town game. I don't have much evidence but the vibes are meh and the tone is meh as well. I think a

TR

is appropriate for now.

Vaxkiller/Isis

Spoiler:

Replacement slot. Just like the Titus slot, I will be sorting later because change of people and play style is confusing and takes some time to sink in.

Null

for now.

Zdenek

Spoiler:

Hmmmm I see quite some slight shade thrown around by you. I think that it is interesting because its not exactly shade. Its more like questions that can help other people start sussing so that you can just sheep those. Ex: post 1683 which I also strongly disagree with because I do not think mush is scum here. Lots of weak reads ie post 1367(there's not really any clear reasons as for why you think pooky and taylor are town) You have two posts that I like and that I think town would say: Posts 1530 and 1534 Got taken out of context and don't remember the interaction with Uno and might look into that if I don't get lazy. Either way I like those two posts. The rest are mediocre. I think I might lazily give you a

null

for now.

I'm not sure if it's a Red flag that she gave Zdenek a null read while basically pointing to a lot of reasons he was scum. Pretty sure the Toogoloo isolation is another point where I could figure out her alignment from if I was any good. This is more nuanced, but also fence sitty, while also being about Vault dweller, while also explaining why she doesn't have great reasons for scum pinging at him and why that's pretty weak. While also doing an interest check which I would normally think of as townie.

I will look, but to be honest I haven't fully read your other post yet. But it is on my to-do

just read the toogeloo read

Murder's stall here sux.

it should take you like 2 minutes max

102 doesn't stand out to me on it's own, but there is maybe something to be said about it being inconsistent with the eventual 315 (as if panda should be giving you more slack based on the logic in 102). I agree with the stance in 897 and the other post about how we should just progress the game by flipping you so I don't really see anything off there. I guess I could see a "you are town" tone to it, but I've done the same thing because it isn't worth interacting with you if you are scum. So, given we are flipping you, it's better to treat you as conf town. I don't know if panda has that same logic, but you could see the same thing from my posts. So yeah I mean I have some feelings about the slot, but I don't think it is anything strong.

I'm not sure what to make of this hedge betty post. It just feels like he's listening and doing what he can to answer her.

[Bell]

that meta is obviously coming back to bite you now.

yeah but I mean using something I said in my literal 4th game on site(I joined all my first four around the exact same time) is dirty and low. Its basically the equivalent of my first game cuz I started them all at around the same time.

Shelly why are you agreeing with your biggest SRs reads rn?

you're obviously my biggest SR, SR =! TR

re: me never tunnelling as town: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84523 - here's a game where I tunnelled scum for the whole of my D1 and got misexe'd because of that

Not sure if Svs/TvS.

Speaking of which, gloria is your TR on me conditional or anything?
Also is it 100% meta based?
I'm in an interesting position rn where here is my thought process:

generally I hate when people give me free town passes when I am town but rn I'm getting heavily SRed and honestly like honestly speaking, I am desperate for someone to correctly read me. I am desperate.

I always am paranoid as town about getting pocketed but rn I seriously do not know what to think bc I constantly am feeling like in a way, I have no choice but to assume the people TRing me aren't scum TMI-ing because I am so desperate for support that I cannot see and do not wish to see a world where I'm just getting absolutely manipulated by scum. I hate that my thought process is this self centered and survivalistic but I feel extremely trapped where I dont feel safe with the people TRing me but I also dont feel safe with the people SRing me. I feel like wherever I go, I'm vulnerable and I'm scared that I am making the wrong choice.

Even when I am universally TRed, I can end up going 100% the wrong direction. Not to mention rn where I have a really hard time determining where I should be heading and I just feel like anyone that reaches out a hand to help me is just gonna get me paranoid and they'd have to do it in an extremely slick way for me to not literally go insane overthinking. It's at a point in the game where I literally wouldn't even be surprised if almost all of my TRs flipped green. I dont know how to describe how paranoid I have been this game but I am seriously so fucking paranoid.

someone give me advice please but be warned that its entirely possible that I get paranoid and start SRing and I'll apologize post game if that happens and you are town. If you are scum, u deserved it.

See this is a perspective I could understand right, it's pretty much exactly how she needs to think. She spends so much time on this emotional stuff getting it right etc. That I feel like If scum I'm looking at someone who felt an inordinate amount of time crafting a pretty good fake perspective. I'm not sure if this mask slipped later as she became more relaxed or not.

I still feel like her solving is off.
But given Murderkitty as a comparison where it's hard to see him solve at all it's not something I can weigh side by side and trust myself.

You are mostly posting self meta wifom. Why don't you instead question people? You have some strong town reads who tr you, why are you not engaging them? Like, regardless of your alignment I think you should consider how your actions led to you getting more SRed.

It's weird how Murdercat encapsulates this comfy town person. In his interactions with Toogoloo. This is slightly a lack of empathy.

[Bell]

You are mostly posting self meta wifom. Why don't you instead question people? You have some strong town reads who tr you, why are you not engaging them? Like, regardless of your alignment I think you should consider how your actions led to you getting more SRed.

trying to help people understand my thought process cuz just spewing whatever came to mind didn't seem to be helping anyone

Mush,
1) why is pooky scum(you weren't that clear especially with all the remembering wrong stuff
2) if pooky is scum, who would he hand the scroll too?

for number 2, keep in mind that if pooky is scum, I'm basically conftown cuz scum never pushes partners that hard day 1. This means that scum!Pooky knows LLD is tunneling me hard which is exactly why I dont think scum!Pooky ever hands the scroll to LLD. Cuz as long as LLD is alive, LLD is gonna push me and that is one more free lim for the scums.

Bell can I get a full on reads list. no need to be a try hard like me. short 1-2 sentence explanations is good. Long explanations are better but if you dont have the time, short is good too.

I just threw a bunch of game advancing questions and look forward to those answers.

Murder has been promoted from a SR to a town lean. Reason : you keep reasoning with me. scum never has that patience. scum just pushes me until I die. Also you keep giving me advice and being like a small guardian angel in the back of my brain. its been greatly appreciated. I hated your tone and felt like I was being talked down to so the SR on you was more anger/emotionally fueled than it was logically(tho there was a lil of that too). Sometimes it just hit different when someone else spews logical shit to you. You've guided me and I feel like you think I am town and are trying to guide me back after I fell into a huge pit of despair. Scum wouldn't ever try to make me look better cuz the worse I look, the less town gets out of a mislim on me and the easier it is to mislim. Thank you I sincerely appreciate it.

I mean winning is secondary to having a fun game and emotionally you read super town to me. But like, we still have to flip you because I know you could and would do all this as scum

@Noraa There are some players who are suspecting us as scum buddies and if you really are town, then this makes me think scum are the ones who are trying to make it look like we are scum buddies when we are not. UNOwen and Fidget are the players that come up from the top of my head.

I haven't played with scum Noraa but I've meta dived her a few times

Just went through her scum games and found a few posts that I think show her range. She is noticably more emotional this game to be fair, but I think Noraa is self aware enough to know that is a town trait of hers.

viewtopic.php?p=12129801#p12129801

viewtopic.php?p=12232252&sid=c4562ff199 ... #p12232252

viewtopic.php?p=12154255#p12154255

I chose these three because I think they show things I've seen from her this game: self-meta, discussion of her being upset about being a miselim (down to the phrasing: "going to be salty"), and high effort walls.

/:

[Bell]

Yeah, my brain is fried.
I need help with 9522 and whether it makes sense or not for town Noraa.
Also, Murderkitty just iso dives her and links.
It's so messed up how hard one of them is trying as scum.
Noraa is the try hardier of the two of them so far on reread given the level of emotional nuance and emulation she's pulling off here.

While Murderkitty is just sort of like in a mold.

[Bell]

It's hard though her emulation is choppy.
It's very complex but there are glitches or what appear to be glitches in them.

[Bell]

You talking to me Murderkitkat?
I do not know to which posts you refer my brain is dead.

[Bell]

If only I had like a week.

I am dreading making a narrative for Murderkitty and Noraa right now.
I could make one with what I have, but I never will do that without having read every single post again.

[Bell]

I started going through the games Murder linked on scum Noraa in elo. She did a lot more here, but her appeals are on the surface initially, similar to the appeals she made here to some extent.

Threats of salt and anger for being flipped and doom and gloom/ emotional ATE are part of her kit. scum range is a thing here.

Her posts this day phase are just so weird.

[Bell]

358 sounds very fake.
I feel like I should have/have actually already said that.

[Bell]

If anyone "accidentally hammers" tho, I'm SRing you to hell and back, scum and ur going down with me 100% if u try to get that towncred.

wait a fing second wtf does this post mean?

lol.

[Bell]

That does look like a genuine scum slip.
And kind of perfectly fits into the scum bus weirdness and narrative.

I am going to take a break now. Read a book for an hour and then sleep.

I'm not sure how she could explain this it's just so off the wall.
It explains a lot of her earlier reads being off and not solve too since she would be prepping for her death by leaving a trail of fake reads.

Guess we'll see.
Thanks for noticing this Pooky. It would be nice if this is real.

[Bell]

isis did you just shade everyone other than fidget (who is quite consensus town) in that post

that's scummy

Oh hey, Shelly copies Isis's wording her and then throws it at her as a distraction.

[Bell]

*tentatively rises hand for a high five for Pooky/Murder/Bell town win?*

[Bell]

It's a quirk of Shelly's where when someone is on the money she kind of repeats what they said.

When I called her scum, she started mirroring me and my exact wording to call me scum.

Would make sense for Shelly to see what Isis said and then throw her words back at her with a scum read.

[Bell]

Will post in 2 hoursish. Not sure how much time is left but I'm just gunna keep on keepin' on.
Really should have meta'd Murdercat, but no real time for that.

@9631: This does feel like Deja vu since you've posted like this as scum before but at a much lower focus. you spent a lot more time aTeing than solving though.
I'm fairly sure that is a universal scum tell.

[Bell]

Dead line too close.

Burnt out.

I think just looking at how Murdercat is treating Noraa as if everything she's saying is an act kind of speaks for itself too.
Normally it would seem like murdercat is being mean spirited here, but when you think about it from a town murdercat perspective it makes perfect sense to see what she's saying and think it looks silly which results in his unempathetic perspective.
He knows something the rest of us aren't quite as sure of yet beause we're deiding between Noraa and MC, but MC and Noraa don't have that issue because they're able to see who they have to fight now.

MC's comes off as more natural.
How Noraa has engaged this day phase with others is not a direct path of engagement. It is mixed with sentimentality designed to manipulate. But it doesn't fit the package.

[Bell]

I won't lie though, the nature of my reread was such that I'm basically taking into account early game and elo whilst missing the majority of the midday phase.

Whilst fidget as confirmed town has read through everything of his I have/had not nearly as much to work off of because I just plain didn't make it in time.

[Bell]

I've been buckling up for this ever since Pookie flipped town.

[Bell]

It's not enough for me Noraa.
There are obvious gaps and work arounds to your logic.
I've explained this to gloria before.

The scum team is not one person, they make decisions and coordinate, sometimes they go off on their own and do something that puts their teammates in a bad position. Sometimes they derp around.

Handing the scroll to LLD was not a death sentence, there is even proof that showed that LLD probably wouldn't scroll you before she got scrolled that you seem to be ignoring here.

[Bell]

I don't know what to say to that Noraa, I'm trying as hard as I can to see how the scum team played around you.

I will not be utterly shocked and heart broken if you flip town. I guess this more than anything is an indication I'm not tunneled.
I know enough about myself that I can see it being you or Mc, just based off of my half-assed efforts I think it's you.

I am sorry if I am wrong.

[Bell]

I don't remember making that argument that it would be bad to pass it to Shelly or what not.
So I guess I'm not one of the guys.

[Bell]

Yeah....
I can't work with a town that is confbiasing this hard.
Y'all are assuming I'm scum and then looking for reasons.

Nope.

[Bell]

You have become dead. -Hectic

[Bell]

@Noraa

I don't feel like I have much advice or commentary RN, this game wore me down at the end.

The land of contrasts comment was a joke meme from a simpson's episode I never watched (i never watched the simpsons).
Supposedly it comes from a kid that didn't do his homework on Libya and ended his report with, "in conclusion Libya is a land of contrasts." it was self-depreciation because I hadn't meta'd you (and never got around to it until near the very end)

Good game.
Thanks for modding Hectic.

[Bell]

Do people want my take on the players this game or would prefer I not.

[Bell]

I want to hear your take on me at least

Sure.

So, I'll just continue with the narrative I was thinking about in which you were indolent town. You quickly got town read and proceeded to slow down because of (to me anyone) a certain level of even-handedness when communicating with anyone and confident tone.
You seemed comfortable when interacting with Shelly but were relatively up front with your reads. You also tended to be very responsive to whatever was happening in game.
You tended to lean on people you felt were town and I saw that which made it easier to read you.
I almost town locked you when you said you weren't going to give a reads list given your positioning being so secure since scum rarely ever feel that way.

Ultimately, you were relatively good at seeming townie to me (Other players in dead thread disagreed, but meh)

Sometimes you seemed to make obtuse statements that could come back to bite you if someone came away with the wrong context. You also tended not to interact with players that were lurking. You had questions but I was never quite sure if these questions would work out. It might have been a better approach to test Noraa rather than asking her to embrace the sweetness of death. I don't think it was wrong that you tended to stay out of the way of people's pushes on others. I think you used meta well to an extent linking games and not going too crazy with your reads based on that meta. Acknowledging you could be wrong naturally weakens the argument, but I prefer arguments made this way than "X is totally scum, let's get em."

I think in elo you were a little wobbly and that extended the game some. I don't think it was wrong to push and see what happened but there was a pretty big incongruity to pushing me in elo in this way.
Pookie could do it because he had the vote, but you didn't which made me have to choose between opportunism and fake pushing. It took awhile to recognize your perspective and attitude in elo in part because I don't think you properly explained your mindset in there, I'm not sure if that would've helped, but it would have helped me not hesitate as much. Early game play hurt you here, since you ultimately compromised instead of pushing your strongest scum read. Early.

I liked your sense of humor throughout the game. I appreciated your meta defense of yourself, but I think sometimes you didn't realize which of your own posts put you in a better light than Noraa.
I think you were slightly more proactive and good at weakening Noraa's position throughout elo. Never really falling behind her.

I don't really know what analysis I should give on your hunting that's a complex topic. I guess it just needs to be a little more attuned to how scum play and communicate.
There's more I could say, but I don't feel confident saying it and also, tired.

Overall, good job imo.

[Bell]

I think you know what you did tho.

You reached too fair with indicators that weren't necessarily reliable.
I think while it's good to have fun, asking for the scroll after obv towning it up for most of us was just really awkward and upsetting it went against our win conditions.
You asked us to trust you, but that trust was misplaced. Trust is just something you earn not something you can demand.
But everybody knows that.

Too harsh?

[Bell]

Your strength is being able to brawl, engage with others and make your points and have people follow them. I never felt like I didn't understand you either so your communication was good.

[Bell]

Noraa messaged me and funnily enough I feel like she just has a lot of strengths and weaknesses so it's easier to talk about.

Her ability to emulate emotion and predict how she should feel and at when in a position that isn't really hers is great.
She also often responded to how people were criticizing her play in real time. She would often times start immediately acting out what people expected to see immediately after they said it.
It was subtle, but it was there.

Her mafia thread strategizing in her PT was good too she seemed to have a good idea of who threatened her position and who didn't.
Great gifs btw.

the not so good.
Stuff she needs to work on is knowing the opportune time to aTe and when people are going to respond to it and when they aren't going to respond to it.
Knowing what you should be doing each phase of the game to fake appearing town is important. Not having a good fake solving game day 1 is fine you can get away with that.
Not having a good one in elo, drawing up very not scummy quotes and calling them scummy was a mistake. You also sometimes said things that were blatant positioning or didn't make sense from your own perspetive. You make sense when you talk in emotions, but you make no sense when you aren't pulling on the heart strings I think it would be a good idea to shore up this part of you.
You also need better timing on your deception and you need some level of subtlety.

Lot of this is gunna get fixed with experience though.
Didn't directly engage with accusations against yourself or misinterpreted them. Whatever case made against you ias town aren't true, but some of the things others did might be. Blanket denials aren't going to work on what other people did. You can only interpret and try to understand the perspective of others and play to it by creating plausible narratives. But you have to start with they've got it wrong and are they scum pushing me for it? And not "That's not true, X which is right in front of me absolutely did not happen" depends on what you're denying though.

*cough* sorry for being harsh with you in game about your elo play. There were just a lot of holes and it was my towards my win condition to frame and point them out.

[Bell]

In other words, you're great at putting out fires with AtE, but you're going to be perpetually kept busy for every new incongruity you create. The less question marks, the less you gotta work.

[Bell]

You're the best!

[Bell]

Sure.
Tomorrow if Thread's still open.

[Bell]

@Mush, you played better than me so I don't see much of a reason to give a run down on ya. Since I didn't know you I didn't know whether to trust your reads and you walled so to be perfectly honest. I just felt you were town, skimmed anything that didn't have to do with an accusation you were making against a player and largely didn't try to engage with you. I'm just the sort of the player that tries to solve independently first and only pays attention when someone else thinks they have a solve for a slot. In other words, once I thought you were town I ignored the majority of your posting.

A wall poster is a rare thing in tyool 2020.
You were good at townng it up and showing a good town thought process. You were able to assert yourself when I was lacking the confidence too even though I had way more reasons to think Shelly was scum than you did.
I very much disagree with the megalomania comment by DGB, she hates authority figures tho is a passing thought I have on DGB. my c key is stuck. At the very least it felt like you struggling with yourself and the thoughts of others and taking it into some account before pushing something and that weighed on you the proper amount before making a decision imo, so the megalomania seems pretty false from my perspective, but that's hard to evaluate.

Good job catching DGB, your thoughts about setting up end game however were a serious reach into the future and was probably a waste of brain power. It's difficult to predict what people will do and you shouldn't be trying to look 5-10 eliminations down the line because the farther away something is the more assumptions you have to make to get there and the less accurate your predictive model is going to be.

[Bell]

@fidget: I kinda sorta thought you were Morning Tweet. You were very helpful in elo. In retrospect you were obv town and did a really good job in a lot of respects. I feel like you could have done a more solid job defending your play and surviving than you did. You had quite a few posts that pointed away from being partners with Shelly if you hammered that home it might have led to an earlier reevaluation. I checked out when we went through the players after Titus and that was very much my fault. I don't think I even got to say anything before you were eliminated. Overall your read on Murdecat was excellent and you correctly identified Noraa as scum and that made things a lot more reassuring I'm glad you weren't dead and could still or it probably would have been even harder on me in elo.

There's probably something to say for reading players off of insanity but not being able to differentiate from insane town and insane scum. I have no idea how to differentiate the two either tho, so I have no advice on that aspect of your hunting. You were very clear.
I think if I had paid more attention to you this would have been an earlier win. opps. Ugh you were so upfront and kept responding to everything. You were basically a paranoia read and I really shouldn't have pushed at you at all.

[Bell]

I do want to be honest, I could reread your posts and give real advice.
But I'm not gunna.