Smoke-Filled Antechamber [Endgame]

[Something_Smart]

Howdy.

[Something_Smart]

mmm this isn't a good look

It's more of a good look than a bad one I would think?

[Something_Smart]

spicy is a scum tell dude

sPiCy

[Something_Smart]

Thank you!

Anytime.

[Something_Smart]

I really doubt scum!Jake is going to come out of the game posting votecounts instead of trying to form connections with other people.

this feels like a zero-dimensional view of scum play?

[Something_Smart]

Why is there a question mark?

Because this is how he plays the game?

[Something_Smart]

I interpreted it as trying to convey a tone of "why am I being asked this." I do that sometimes as well.

[Something_Smart]

why did you feel the need to jump in on midway's behalf?

Because I was making a sarcastic response?

[Something_Smart]

(See look, I just did it lol)

[Something_Smart]

feels like a post that throws shade but doesnt advance the game.

I hate these kind of accusations. "Throws shade" is just charged language for "expresses a negative opinion". Which if phrased that way is just as potentially game-related as expressing any other opinion.

Furthermore, making a post that doesn't advance the game is not in and of itself bad. What's bad is not making posts that DO advance the game, but if you're doing both, then there's no problem.

[Something_Smart]

Happy birthday FakeGod! \o/

[Something_Smart]

hmm you can be town i think

ok but are you going to respond to the point I made

[Something_Smart]

I really don't think this happens naturally but I could be wrong.

under what circumstances do you think it happens, then?

[Something_Smart]

I guess I'll look at this as NAI, but it's just a bit off ya feel?

nope, I don't think that doing weird stuff is more likely to be from scum in general.

[Something_Smart]

Oh I also want Something Smart to post more.

Ask me again after I'm done with this assignment lol

[Something_Smart]

thank tlaloc you're not putting me in the position of arbiting a fake guilty.

lol

[Something_Smart]

Eh I realized that I'm historically bad at reading Nahdia

So you're a user on this site, then.

[Something_Smart]

Legitimate reads are reads that are working towards solving the game, not sowing discord.

this is a really weird view of scumplay.

[Something_Smart]

(and yes, these are all not in this game, but I'm deliberate about using people not in this game, lest I be wrong and eat my words)

lol

are there any people in the game who would fit into the categories you're describing?

[Something_Smart]

But I regularly write paragraphs because that's what I need to get my point across. Not everyone shitposts their way to LyLo. Some of us play the game and speak eloquently.

There's a middle ground :X

[Something_Smart]

+town points

Meh disagree. Cakez is good enough as scum to know when he'd walk away from an argument as town.

[Something_Smart]

Seem very half-hearted (Nahdia admitted to this)

isn't admission of fault usually towny?

[Something_Smart]

Because I didn't feel like engaging annoying RP. Sorry.

[Something_Smart]

I don't see anything in particular wrong with them. Can you elaborate?

[Something_Smart]

Not in this case imo.

Go on?

[Something_Smart]

The effect seems to be to get people such as you to suspect them. You think Nahdia did it as a tactic to... get scumread?

[Something_Smart]

But you literally just said you think it's a townie thing to do...

It is. It's towny because most people don't see it as towny.

[Something_Smart]

So WIFOM

It would have to be a WIFOM play for it to be intentional from scum, which is unlikely, yes.

[Something_Smart]

I'm proud to report that all I've got is he's still making the same logical fallacy where he assumes that because A happened and B occurred it had something to do with A.

When did I do that?

[Something_Smart]

I didn't assume that. Cakez said that Nahdia would be aware of the impression, so I was arguing under that assumption. I said it would be WIFOM if it's intentional; if it's accidental, then obviously it's not AI.

[Something_Smart]

Well, I guess technically I did assume it. But I assumed it for the sake of argument, and not because I really believed it. It's not a logical fallacy.

[Something_Smart]

You're one of those people that says no, before coming around to yes begrudgingly

Communication is not unambiguous, so yes, this will happen.

I clearly didn't do the thing you said I did, though, so I don't know what the problem is.

[Something_Smart]

Your tell is probably something like "in every prime numbered game SS plays in he uses a different posting style as town than usual"

What is this post supposed to mean

[Something_Smart]

I don't really believe you

why don't you assume good faith and spell it out anyway?

[Something_Smart]

If this is an actual thing you are trying to do, it doesn't really make sense to say you are doing it.

Why not? Transparency is usually better for town so people can understand your mindset.

[Something_Smart]

It may not be OPTIMAL, but I think from a certain perspective it definitely makes sense.

[Something_Smart]

Also it makes town-tells later dropped by target more questionable.

If a tell goes away when you talk about it, it probably wasn't a very good tell to begin with.

[Something_Smart]

Something_Smart is feeling a lot more absent than usual.

Am I though

[Something_Smart]

I think this is within normal range for how absent I am.

[Something_Smart]

SS you just feel v disengaged here. Would you disagree?

I guess?

I don't think I'm that disengaged so much as there isn't that much that I feel like engaging with.

[Something_Smart]

How does an anonymous game prevent you from wondering that? All it does is prevent you from figuring it out

[Something_Smart]

Do you have any reads yet?

no

there is way too much discussion that is orthogonal to anything I want to talk about.

Do you thread avoid as scum?

Sometimes.

[Something_Smart]

What would you like to talk about?

I mean, if I knew, I'd be talking about it :/

The meta discussions are alienating. People seem to be by and large going with the flow and not really doing anything that stands out. And like I'm sure there IS readable content in there but I don't have the skill nor the patience to extract it.

[Something_Smart]

"I'm town and don't want to effort"

FTFY

[Something_Smart]

Specifically, I don't want to effort when I know it won't accomplish anything worthwhile.

[Something_Smart]

How can you assume this

Because when I force reads they come out hot garbage. Speaking from experience.

[Something_Smart]

Are you thinking to kinda sit out day 1?

Ideally no. I just need to find something to engage with.

If there's anything you want to hear my opinion on, I'll definitely try to see what I can come up with (though I can't guarantee it won't be "that's NAI").

[Something_Smart]

actually coming around to s_s town as he's starting to hit me on a gut level as "lost townie detached from the game"

Can we talk about this

I know it's a gut read, but I don't think I would really have any trouble faking acting lost as scum. (Or genuinely being lost, honestly) Can you elaborate at all on why you think this isn't as likely to be a scum tactic?

[Something_Smart]

also I'm going to stop being a whiner and read some ISO's

Maybe it won't help but it definitely won't hurt

[Something_Smart]

I think Tayl0r was trying to signal to the scum team.

Yeah, that seems pretty clear-cut.

VOTE: Tayl0r

[Something_Smart]

Syr asked Fakegod about what kind of traitor this is and Fakegod declined to tell us!

But fortunately Tayl0r was kind enough to tell us instead.

[Something_Smart]

Alisae mild town lean but will probably be sortable later
Bell mild town lean
Cabd mild town lean
DS mild scum lean

FakeGod lockscum

ffery mild town lean
wait Gamma's in this game? his first post is towny though. rest of ISO is null
Jake is unreadable
midwaybear null but probably sortable later
Nahdia null and I hope things get less stressful soon
petapan mild town lean
Pooky is honestly probably my strongest townread, but I don't have to be happy about it
I will not attempt to read Cakez on D1. I have a slight town lean on Cakez. By the law of me being utterly unable to read Cakez, this means he is scum. Gottem
Syryana mild town lean
Tammy null
Tayl0r null via ISO but also lol
Bulge has 19 posts, no wonder I can't remember anything they've done.

[Something_Smart]

Yes, because 1606 doesn't say anything. If Tayl0r wants to make an actual defense, I'll engage it for sure.

[Something_Smart]

What's NAI? The fact that you just accidentally used the word "betray"?

[Something_Smart]

That was probably intentional.

i can actually see taylor doing that because she's a massive shitposting troll

i find it less likely she does it when she's an actual traitor

y'all need to shut up, I was obviously trying to get Tayl0r to clarify without letting her know what I was looking for.

Okay Tayl0r if it wasn't an accident why did you do it then?

[Something_Smart]

a) its fun

...it's fun to get mis-exed?

you have an odd definition of fun, my friend

[Something_Smart]

You must have expected your hood-mates to call it out as a crumb. How were you expecting that to go down?

[Something_Smart]

its fun to be wagoned and suspected. notice that theres a big wagon and pressure on me and suddenly im posting? not a coincidence. i told the dethy that too. i get my best reads when im interacting directly with people, especially when i can see their logic for their reads on me.

Okay. People are wagoning you because you crumbed traitor (and didn't do the obvious step of saying you were doing so in the neighborhood PT). You're almost certainly going to die now. What do you think of that logic?

[Something_Smart]

*blinks*

[Something_Smart]

Did Syryana say anything overnight that's worth relaying?

[Something_Smart]

didnt someone mention that FG uses the term "traitor" to mean "goon"? or did i imagine that?

FG has done this in open games before.

But there's no reason to assume he did it here. In fact there's reason to assume the opposite because why does Tayl0r crumb traitor if she's actually a goon.

[Something_Smart]

is this real

Yes midwaybear has access to the mafia PT and they think he's scum but he's actually town. Completely fun and balanced modding.

[Something_Smart]

We are told by the moderator that our neighborhood contains 4 town cops, sanity unknown

So there was no guarantee that the cops are sane, insane, paranoid, and naive in some combination? Or did you just leave that out for brevity?

[Something_Smart]

Traitors have access to the mafia PT? I am not a town traitor though. That was a joke.

No, I was joking that a town traitor would be effectively a regular mafia member, except town-aligned. It was poorly executed. Town traitors don't exist.

[Something_Smart]

s_s what are your current reads?

Not really all that different from 1612, excepting conftowns of course.

Nahdia may be a bit lower, it's a dumb gut feel but I think 1855 is > rand scum.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, it's unfortunate that there isn't any mod meta with FakeGod and traitors. It would be helpful to know whether she had knowledge of her buddies.

I think site meta combined with FG being a good mod and knowing what mechanics are unfun combined with Tayl0r showing any motivation at all to play the game implies that she did know her partners.

[Something_Smart]

Aw cmon mate. Did you forget the worst idea mafia where I made town traitor a named VT with a funny role PM?

No, but I did forget that you were the one who modded it. That's grandest idea, it doesn't count.

[Something_Smart]

Iiieeeee don't think we need to answer this atm.

Fair enough.

[Something_Smart]

Wait she did? Where?

Did you even ask yourself overnight why we executed the person we did...?

That was literally how she got caught.

[Something_Smart]

I'm guessing this is the traitor crumb that was just stated to exist?

yep

[Something_Smart]

I really don't like the hard lurk yesterday.

you... really don't like Nahdia being busy with RL?

Or what?

[Something_Smart]

DS, what's your read on The Bulge?

[Something_Smart]

My opinion on out-of-game stuff is whatever because people can lie or exaggerate.

Also, this feels pretty out-of-touch with reality. In my experience, very few people believe that it's ethical to lie about RL as scum to excuse alignment-indicative lurking.

[Something_Smart]

Nahdia's rant was, uh, pretty specific. Seems unlikely for it to be exaggerated...

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: something smart
Anyways...let's go here

You know this means I'm town, right

[Something_Smart]

I talked about it yesterday but basically SS' disengagement feels scum-motivated

How is disengagement motivated? It's a feeling, not a choice...

[Something_Smart]

For the most part I'll stay out of this discussion unless you ask me something, but I can definitely provide context on my readlist styles if you want to hear it. And I just wanted to point out that I did not start from the OP; I started from the ISO dropdown. That's why the names are in alphabetical order.

[Something_Smart]

It would be faked in this case

OK. So why is it faked and not real?

[Something_Smart]

Imo. I would like you to be in this discussion S_S. Sometimes there’s a ring of truth that enjoy hearing from people and can let me get a good read.

The truth here is not going to be terribly alignment-indicative, I don't think?

But I guess I can explain why I made that post if you're still curious.

[Something_Smart]

Trying to do what?

[Something_Smart]

(@Cakez)

[Something_Smart]

its not facing the post I cannot forgive this sin

people whose avatars do not face the post are truly the scum of the earth, it is true.

[Something_Smart]

its not facing the post I cannot forgive this sin

people whose avatars do not face the post are truly the scum of the earth, it is true.

[Something_Smart]

Trying to play the game

This is uh not a very helpful answer. I'm playing the game. I can't NOT be playing the game, unless I, you know, replaced out.

[Something_Smart]

Also, S_S I'd like to hear what you want to say about your reads list approaches.

In general my readlists are bottom-up, that is, I get some reads, and then when someone asks me to compile them, I list the ones that come to mind. Depending on the state of the game and how I'm feeling, I may or may not include everyone in tiers including a null tier.

In this game, for the longest time I couldn't get into it, so a bottom-up readlist would have put pretty much everyone in a null tier. Instead I did a top-down readlist, where I forced myself to skim everyone's ISO and report on my feelings, even if they were totally null.

I usually try to avoid stuff like that because when I force reads they come out garbage, but I tried to make sure I was only forcing myself to look at the ISO's, not forcing myself to come to a conclusion (and I reported on very weak conclusions because those are better than nothing).

[Something_Smart]

Lurking itself is not a scum tell

Does this mean that people lurking are not more likely to be scum, or that lurking is not enough to make someone definitely scum?

[Something_Smart]

This is a sign of a scum that is looking for any excuse they have to avoid the game.

If this is the case, why didn't I avoid the game after saying it?

Instead I doubled down on an attempt to get back into the game and did something I almost never do (ISO'd everyone). This was actually in direct contradiction to a lot of the stuff I said earlier, because I decided to stop being a whiner and try to fix my problem.

[Something_Smart]

I don't see much behind SS yet, but I also did not see much to Taylor yesterday either.

Well, I didn't scumslip. (That you know of... )

[Something_Smart]

I am an actual Mason.

Not psuedo-mason, but literal "You are a Mason" masons.

My role as it is written, I am lovers, millers, and masons, with my flavor-sibling.

Independently of that, I am a novice vig. I have pizza ready to hand out. Deep dish, as in the Varsoon hydra town vig that got day one eliminated in that one large normal.

I'll at most get the one shot off, but it'll keep us on odds when I die and my little bro goes with me.

Something_Smart will be along shortly to put your doubts to rest.

I endorse this product and/or service

[Something_Smart]

now I get to do my least favorite thing in mafia which is be conftown

[Something_Smart]

wtf kind of game has potentially 6 masons?

Probably one with extra scum killing power

[Something_Smart]

Although technically because Cabd and I are lovers, I guess that does count as extra killing power. It only takes one shot to kill us both.

[Something_Smart]

part of me thinks this could be worth thinking about. I think 1/2 more scum towards the bottom of the activity overview sorted by most posts, the rest upper-middle?

why should there be a correlation between the postcounts of different scum players? wouldn't that be a player-dependent thing above all?

[Something_Smart]

I will say that regardless of post count if I were scum this game I would be incredibly heartbroken having a second masonry pop in after the first one had already kicked me in the dick

I feel like this is true iff they were counting on me as a mis-exe. I'm sure they weren't counting on you as one.

[Something_Smart]

I believe Cabd's claim but also this game seems wayyyyy too town-sided if it's real no?

We don't know what powers scum have or even how many members they have.

[Something_Smart]

this is why my death pool is now [alisae, nahdia, bulge]
three super demotivated players

I believe the implication was that the demotivation was recent, though, and these three have been low-effort since forever.

[Something_Smart]

I'm dead.

[Something_Smart]

So the two of you share the doctor shot? Do you have to agree on a target?

[Something_Smart]

Is this game bastard??

No. Although FakeGod is a bastard for making it

[Something_Smart]

Can you link your earliest crumb?

[Something_Smart]

The crumbs check out, at least.

[Something_Smart]

two claimed docs

Also, the docs have a shared ability, so I would assume that can't be roleblocked?

[Something_Smart]

If you think I have methodology, then my acting has been a resounding success.

How do you define methodology such that you do not have one

[Something_Smart]

am i being unreasonable here? i really dont think i am!!!

What exactly are you arguing?

[Something_Smart]

there is in fact no evidence DS has provided that he has any ability to read me well

I do, however, feel that he provided pretty decent evidence for why he THINKS he can read you, no?

[Something_Smart]

I don't

need

to do anything.

If you want to be self-consistent you do

[Something_Smart]

Do you not see how DS was scummily angling to try and set the stage the push you by trying to discredit the very reason you are conftown?

Right, let's push the mason who's also a vig and also an influential and strong player with several conftown friends, that's a great scum strat ???

[Something_Smart]

So why is he not pushing us then

[Something_Smart]

But somehow he didn't see that coming?

That has nothing to do with desperation, that just has to be obtuseness. But if he were that obtuse why would he let people's responses stop him from pushing us?

[Something_Smart]

See, what baffles me is how you can view Bell's approach as scummy but give DS a pass for a handling of your claims that is way

worse

bad != scum
bad != scum
bad != scum
bad != scum
bad != scum

[Something_Smart]

Bell's response definitely sounds like the scummier out of the two when you put it that way...

[Something_Smart]

I'm like 99.9% sure tay knew

Walk me through it?

Traitors know their partners.
Tayl0r was a traitor.
∴ Tayl0r knew her partners.

[Something_Smart]

Being confirmed town demotivates some folks, though.

Ain't that the truth

If you want to chat about anything in particular I'd love a way to get into the game a little more.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah sounds good. Preference for not talking about Tayl0r because that all feels very WIFOMy to me.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah Cakez reads seem somewhat sketchy this game, but I think it is just the circumstance.

More than that, I think it's just Cakez lol

[Something_Smart]

It's funny, Cabd and I also fakeclaimed and we don't seem to be catching much shit for it.

[Something_Smart]

I think Alisae's fakeclaim actually won town the game?

If e doesn't fakeclaim, then nothing really plays out differently, except that Pooky can't claim a save on Alisae when he no-kills and probably just claims one on Tammy instead. Then the same lylo is reached, but Pooky doesn't have to argue that Alisae did a 1000 IQ no-kill gambit; he can just argue that e tried to mindgame Pooky and shot Tammy. And based on DGB's reasoning, there's a decent chance she buys that.

[Something_Smart]

If Alisae didn't fakeclaim it's like 80% likely that Pooky would have just been elimmed day 4

Through a doc claim?

That seems kinda crazy to me that people would execute a doc with a confirmed living cop.