The Trials - ENDGAME

[maxwell]

Hello. Realize this is something of a difficult situation with very little time and I haven't really been following the game. I'm VT, have there been any other claims at all?

[maxwell]

Oh, game stats with VTs, right, my bad. Sorry.

[maxwell]

Literally had just started reading the first page and went to correct myself.

[maxwell]

I'm reading up but given time constraints would be helpful to know where people stand right now with regard to reads. Would someone mind summarizing those for me?

[maxwell]

Well, vote was on overnight while no one posted so I wouldn't say it counts for much. Understood this slot's scumread, mind explaining why? Or why dgb and gypyx are town?

[maxwell]

From what I've seen of a little of his game, being a hardcore lurker who doesn't contribute much seems entirely normal for Nosferatu. Would be wary of anyone who's been strongly pushing him as scum on that basis.

And that's fine, didn't need much, just getting the perspective helps.

[maxwell]

What it means is I read my role PM and posted without reading the first page of the topic, but that should be treated as entirely NAI.

If I'm being fully honest DGB's posts on page 79 don't look like ones I see town making but not about to base a lylo read on a single page of posts.

Suppose I'll try to stream of consciousness my readthrough although I've no idea how it'll go.

[maxwell]

Didn't really care for Eddie on page 5, the early reads in 104 felt forced, 107 was throwing suspicion on two town players but tops it off with a hedge at the end. Notable that he somehow put leia toward town in his reads but then questions her about calling pob "locktown" in 129 - process feels backwards, he should be questioning her before declaring any sort of read.

Gypyx's 110 felt somewhat awkward but his other posts are okay-ish.

Absolutely hate the living piss out of 168 from Marashu, massive opening post that's largely IIoA, with light shade on gypyx toward the end of it.

[maxwell]

I'm reading up but given time constraints would be helpful to know where people stand right now with regard to reads. Would someone mind summarizing those for me?

I have DGB as quasi-locktown given what we know of the mechanics

Tayl0r swift is the person i TR the most

4th townie is up to discussion, leaning towards Marashu

Could you elaborate on these at all?

[maxwell]

I'm reading up but given time constraints would be helpful to know where people stand right now with regard to reads. Would someone mind summarizing those for me?

I have DGB as quasi-locktown given what we know of the mechanics

Tayl0r swift is the person i TR the most

4th townie is up to discussion, leaning towards Marashu

Could you elaborate on these at all?

dgb :

either the gladiate was all town, in that case, dgb is town or either the gladiate had scum in it, i seriously doubt that we had 2 scum in it, therefore : dgb / nosferatu (you) = 1, i'm strongly scumreading your slot, so by PoE i'm confident in trusting DGB

taylor :

mostly gut read, i could try to go deeper and make a logical explaination, but i'm playing by gut this game, and i think taylor's pretty widely seen as town

the rest :

my solve is maxwell / titus / {Glitch or Maeashu} my theory would be that titus engaged in theater this ExeLo, because scum loves doing that, and I think Glitch reads more like distancing than Mara

Well, you're wrong on me, would say mechanically it would be pretty messed up if there was a way the day 2 gladiate could be an all-town one given the setup, as that just seems to have the potential to punish the town with cascading failures. We'll see though.



Don't care for tay's response to leia in 203 felt like an overreaction, but 231 reads as genuine annoyance. Not impossible for scum to fake but meh.

DGB opening with a vote on Vecna in 212 ignoring everything else is not a particularly good look.

[maxwell]

Don't like Eddie's sheep vote in 297 especially knowing the flip, suppose tayl0r gets credit for calling that out in 298.

307 to 312 from DBG starts with some empty town reads - easiest content for scum to give. ends with suggesting leia could be busing shelly, again absolutely hate this type of claiming s/s interactions on day 1 as that type of read just feels overdone, not like something a real thought someone would have.

Okay, Titus can be town for laying a trap with claiming that there was a slip. Not impossible for scum to fake that but I like the attempt to generate something meaningful.

332 from Marashu is pretty bad, more IIoA, fencesit on Titus in 334, only real contest seems to be sheeping battle mage in 335.

Actually do not particularly care for tayl0r's readlist in 364 at all in respons to redpanda, feels underdeveloped and 365 has a hint of LAMIST to it with the "im having a hard time".

[maxwell]

I admit I'm having a soft spot reading Titus's posts as town because I know she's defending me here, but I can't really help it. Still have yet to see the 'solving' I'm being told is coming from DGB. Titus coming across with much more believable scumhunting here on page 16.

[maxwell]

439 from DGB is a terrible post, casts vague aspersions on fidget and titus but doesn't outright accuse, finds ways of saying fidget and titus

could

be suspicious, leaves it for others to pick up if they want to. Fidget defending herself to Titus is supposed to be suspect for some reason? Titus was the leading the charge against fidget so it's only natural she'd respond to her loudest accuser. Doesn't really analyze Titus's gambit either, just fencesits on it. Again,another fencesitting post in 452. Reasoning on shelly calling a fight tvt is also pretty poor, see town players call fights TvT all the time and it's an important thing to do, feels a bit like a trap - if someone legitimately townreads two people having a fight they're supposed to say nothing? Those sort of things happen all the time.

The early wagon on taylor that Titus point out in 473 looks rather bad for taylor? 5 deep, all town. Conclusions for voting shelly are somewhat daffy but at least make sense for Titus's playstyle.

In general beginning to find taylor's posts are coming from a very 'safe' sort of approach, there's a lack of strong accusation against other people there, the overall vibe is guarded, hanging back, not wanting to go on the attack as much. Stuff like 498 where she just asks a question, then makes a generic comment about plus and nos being lurky, a very safe inoffensive statement to make. Feigns at being content while not actually offering anything.

[maxwell]

Had though gypyx seemed towny but went back to reread him before making my post and couldn't get anything specific so I deleted it.

[maxwell]

Had though gypyx seemed towny but went back to reread him before making my post and couldn't get anything specific so I deleted it.

You meanie

Not really an attack, just not going to throw out a read I feel I can't justify.

[maxwell]

Again posts frokm DGB like 558 and 559 don't speak to town motivation to me. opportunism and empty attacks. Not seeing this supposed solving mindset multiple people have told me about.

Got to the end of day 1. I do have somewhat of a gut vibe toward gypyx as town but not strong at all.

[maxwell]

Have to admit don't see gypyx making 666 as scum. going for the more difficult vote instead of the LHF ones in the gladiate and his reasoning isn't bad there.


Marashu's posts continue to be absolutely horrible and offer nothing of value.

[maxwell]

Vote in 763 from Marashu is bad. Don't much care for the way DGB attacked Nos in 866, feels like a hyperbolic reaction to a post that's easy to parse (namely, that he didn't think scum would play the way plusjoyed was playing). Really hate 913 from gypyx on first blush but that's with the benefit of hindsight knowing today is lylo, on second thought the idea that the trolling town could be a liability in trial is a fairly nuanced thought when most people were just calling for killing a lowposter without much behind it. Through page 40 now.

[maxwell]

Actually Eddie's 1021 pings slightly townie, stubbornness if the face of what everone is doing and assumption he might be sent to the gladiate rings town. Starting vote on Titus day 2 feels like a believable sort of paranoia. Don't like DGB's push back on him here either.

1135 from taylor is really notable as a soft defense of Marashu.

Marashu continues with mostly bad setup spec in 1160, only thing close to aread in the second sentence is nosferatu saying he thought everyone in the gladiate was town is "interesting". real limp non-analysis, lightly tries to paint him as scum for doing that by saying he's "hedging bets" which doesn't really make sense. Finding myself agreeing with Titus as I read the thread.


Glitch on replace is is...fine? I think.

Might be giving gypyx too much credit, I don't know. 1261 is meh.

[maxwell]

Feels very wrong that I might end up casting a game deciding vote here when I've been in the game less than a day but my impression on a readthrough is not a lot of people seemed to care anyway.

[maxwell]

(T -> S)
Titus, Glitch, Gypyx, DGB, Taylor, Marashu

Middle is fairly shaky. Struggling to see why when so many players were being attacked for no content Marashu has largely been given a pass for the majority of the game.

[maxwell]

Actually DGB is probably scummier on net but I can't get over you making excuses for Marashu who feels fairly obv-scum

[maxwell]

It's the contrast of things like this:

Taylors not fake >:(

Sorry but she still goes woah is me and cries anytime I ask why Mara shouldn't be sorted. She never gives a reason. She's now trying to accuse me of being scum to avoid the very problems she's created.

Attacking others instead of taking responsibility for or trying to correct problems is fake.

i keep asking you why i should sort marashu as scum and you never answer and then dont like that i havent sorted marashu as scum. like marashu just hasnt done anything that let me sort the slot.

To your staed read on my slot:

nos - light town

how

what am i chopped liver?

initially i had you as light town for townreading me, which i assumed was a metaread. but that has since changed to a bit of a scumread - your posts are mostly fluff, light on analysis, and you've been hopping your vote around quite a lot while sheeping. i expect more and better content from you. and the townread on me could just as easily be an attempt to pocket.

Being "fluff, light on analysis" while you pushed the slot for several days without much added reasoning. You were willing to be extremely charitable to Marashu for some reason while never really giving the benefit of the doubt to Nosferatu.

[maxwell]

it creeps me out that titus and maxwell are so buddy buddy, even though i think titus is probably town. very strange for a slot to replace in and immediately reciprocate the defense. they strongly townread each other and each has marashu as top scum.

I mean, sure, if you ignore everything I've actually said in my stream of consciousness, it's strange.

[maxwell]

it creeps me out that titus and maxwell are so buddy buddy, even though i think titus is probably town. very strange for a slot to replace in and immediately reciprocate the defense. they strongly townread each other and each has marashu as top scum.

I mean, sure, if you ignore everything I've actually said in my stream of consciousness, it's strange.

well it seems like you didnt read everything, since marashu has made some very good posts today.

No shit? You asked me what my reads were, I'm on page 52 Maybe they'll change. Maybe they won't.

[maxwell]

Okay then. So you understand you asked for work in progress reads. Don't try to ring me up for that.

[maxwell]

Nah, still working, you could see from what I've commented on. Being aggressive because it's annoying to get attacked in this fashion although it feels like a misunderstanding at this point.

[maxwell]

If that's "overblown" to you, well, okay.

[maxwell]

Don't really care for glitch's 1400, response to nora seems overly harsh to be calling for a "policy" on day 3. Kind of like 1434 from gypyx. Noting glitch's promises of catching up in 1458, need to see if he actually delivers anything.

[maxwell]

I said I didnt like her play earlier. Rn my mind is kinda occupied with these two and I don't think titus fits into the last slot.

i mean i dont know if i see a DBG and titus pairing, but i definitely see titus and glitch. why do you think dgb is scum?

Why are you drawing a connection between Titus and Glitch, exactly?

[maxwell]

Going to try to finish reading overnight, but fairly concerning that it's lylo and no one has voted with a little over a day until deadline I'd rather lose because town misvoted me rather than having time run out, that's just pathetic. I'm up to page 61.

[maxwell]

You had stated a little while earlier that {nos, titus, glitch} was your solve so I don't know how you could have been "overstating" it

[maxwell]

I get that you're still catching up, but this feels mostly like shading the person that Titus is trying to push. Would you mind being more clear about what's bad?

Not really shade, you just refrained from making virtually any game-relevant commentary and chose to instead do things like aimless setup spec to give the appearance of contribution. I don't think "information instead of analysis" is that hard to grasp. Do you think my slot is scum?

[maxwell]

You had stated a little while earlier that {nos, titus, glitch} was your solve so I don't know how you could have been "overstating" it

mhmm, but i dont have them as my solve because of associations. you and titus have lots of associations though.

Okay. Won't deny the latter point based on my read, but I'm town. Not impossible for Titus to have been white knighting a town slot as scum but in general she strikes me as the one person who was attempting to scumhunt in some meaningful way.

[maxwell]

From what I saw, if anything, I felt you were playing a fairly safe conservative game where you didn't accuse many people and had mainly pushed my slot for weak reasons about Nos fluffing. Didn't see a lot solid behind it that I liked. But,it's a skim read from a few hours of looking. I could be horribly wrong.

Too tired to finish tonight will have to pick it back up in a few hours tomorrow morning. If nothing I've done or said has given people any doubts, they can vote me, though. Like I said, prefer town loses this from voting wrong on me rather than losing to a no elimination on lylo.

[maxwell]

Not a lot to comment on through page 70, just a lot of people yelling to vote someone without much in the way of supporting arguments. Difficult to make a real judgment off of anything.

Marashu's 1524 is really just nothing -vague suspicion on a majority of the players with nothing behind it, and saying a few "feel like town". Fascinating that this was enough to get people off his case while pete got jumped on easily.

[maxwell]

Titus's VCA summary in 1826 is largely incoherent to me. Postulates a bunch of theories but conclusions toward certain players being town feels very arbitrary.

[maxwell]

It is what it is, I suppose.

Incredibly concerning that most people seem to be actively avoiding the game with less than a day left. Just got to Marashu's reads posts and not really impressed at all but I guess if someone strings together enough sentences for a suitably large paragraph, people are impressed. Will try to string together a response although I suspect apathy might win out here.

[maxwell]

Ok so... maxwell, your previous solve is still up to date?

Reads mostly unchanged, yes. Like DGB less than taylor, especially with her approach toward Titus today. Don't really anticipate changing minds though.

[maxwell]

I'd probably only vote glitch if it was the only possible elimination with time running out.

[maxwell]

It's especially unfair to the scum team but they got 3 night kills and I have no tears LOL.

You were defending your failbuddy when he was pissing around the game, so...

Town literally cannot get to four votes to lynch scum, so...

Wait

Wut?????

Scumslip????????????

Yeah you slipped... this sounds like knowledge, not a read LOL.

Want to reiterate I never see town making posts like these.

[maxwell]

Titus' behavior pattern on D3 for Noraa vs. Pete wagon was pretty bad. This is what she said: "I am not switching to Noraa while Nos is in danger." She was voting town!Pete at the time. With regards to the Noraa vs. Pete wagon itself, Titus said "Objectively, I should just tie the wagons since I am unsure by play." She didn't care who was eliminated, as long as it wasn't Nos. In 1663, Glitch votes for Nos. 1664, which comes right after, is Titus coming in with "Glitch you give me sads."

For somebody who declared she could equally vote Noraa or Pete to save Nos, I notice in her ISO that she challenges and criticizes Noraa a lot. Titus said of Nos, rather egocentrically, that "He's being suspected because he is the biggest town willing to work with me." She talks a lot about Noraa. So I went to check how many mentions of Pete there were in her ISO. Result: not a lot! Early in the game, she said: "Not touching the Pickaxe Pete wagon based on who got on." I guess she changed her mind later because she was herself on the Pete wagon for the elimination. Titus said at one point: "It's another wagon that gained steam based on town." She calls Pete town. Put a pin in that. In her post 365 she answered "Because I am voting a different scum. Second, I am not 100% sure. I am extrapolating based on how easy his wagon took. It could be that Taylor is scum and the wagon on me which morphed into Pickaxe Pete could be scum. Of course that means Fidget would be less likely to be scum due to the neighbor rules in VCA." Titus full on calls Pete town, he could be town because his wagon was fast (excluding any possibility that he was objectively scummy) and yet she consistently hints that Pete could be scum, too. Then when it comes time to save her precious Nos... off with your head, Pete! Titus had several different opinions of Pete at the same time for big parts of the game. And wants to save Nos, and guns blazing for me.

And the thing that really gets me about this, I'm not feeling any paranoia from Titus. Town!Titus would stop and ask why Nos was engaging with her the way he was(which seems to be the main reason for the TR, that he's agreeing with her).

In practice, I'll townread for today anyone willing to vote Mara with me.

This is a big yikes. It's like she doesn't need to worry about later days.

Criticism here directed at Titus feels cheap, simple enough to see she had a townread on my slot while she didn't have one on noraa and pete, and seemingly very few people townread either, so I'm not sure why this is supposed to be some black mark against Titus. town get town reads on players all the time.

Incredibly ridiculous that he attacks Titus for calling pickaxe pete town early in the game, and then being willing to vote him on day 3, as if reads can't change over time and need to stay frozen in ice. Day 1 read certainly didn't seem strong enough that she should be held accountable for voting him later on. Feels like a "gotcha" point, and the idea she was "consistently hinting" he could be scum seems like a misinterpretation, - the quote he include was calling the

wagon

on pickaxe pete scum.

A summation of Marashu's points against Titus would be that 1. she defended my slot 2. she voted town on day 3. That's a piss poor attempt at a case.

[maxwell]

Regarding DGB, at some point Town!Pete had 5 votes and looked like a sure elimination. DGB was voting Pete, but she kept harping that Noraa is scum. Eventually, seven hours from the deadline, she coaxes Glitch for voting Noraa (who is also his scum read) and of course Pete votes Noraa for selfish reasons. If she was scum she could have just stood back and let the Pete elim happen because it was going to happen anyway. Titus was around, but wouldn't switch, and Gypyx flew in and hammered. There is no motivation for scum trying to whip up excitement for a counterwagon to town. It could have succeeded, so it's not like there was no chance of it happening.

This is an incredibly flawed premise that we saw Noraa also died and was town (presumably). It posits that there would be no advantage to scum positioning themselves on a town counterwagon to a town elimination, when that sort of thing happens

absolutely all the time

. They try to make themselves look good by not voting for town, while setting up a future elimination. (this is somewhat complicated by Noraa being killed as a result of maximum failure, but I have a hard time seeing why a scum team would willfully choose to kill her, even if, say, Glitch was on that team, so I lean toward the failure deaths being random). Marashu seems to be bending over backwards for the thinnest of reason to call DGB town, rather convenient as she's been protective of him as well.

Glitch also pushed for a last minute counter wagon to town. It was coming from a sincere place because since he entered the game, Glitch zoned in to Noraa as possible scum. I still have no clue what was happening with Eddie on D2, but I'm pretty sure I was tunneling that slot. I see now that he made numerous valid and convincing posts expressing this opinion, so he's pretty solid on it. For a short time, Glitch even voted for Titus' pet Nos. His frustration at the start of D4 felt genuine - there really was nothing (except the time stamp) to indicate that N3 was going to be extra long. I feel that he managed to redeem the EddieFenix slot.

Again, this ignores that the last minute counterwagon was...also town, so this logic is flawed. There's also a claim of "numervous valid and convincing posts expressing this opinion" but no reference to what any of them actually were. The point regarding "genuine frustration" also largely makes no sense as being frustrated at a long night phase would be just as valid from scum as from town. Again the reasoning for calling someone town here just doesn't make sense.

[maxwell]

Tayl0r cast a vote for town!Pete and disappeared so I can't town read her like I town read some others at the end of last day. It's funny, Tayl0r says:"i dont know why its so hard to get people to vote titus and its spooking me" while Titus is lamenting that no one is voting scum, and scum is lurking letting the town rip each other. You know who was lurking and Titus is defending? Nosferatu. Tayl0r's ISO has a lot of questions and at some point she says: "my solve is {nos, titus, glitch}" I'm almost certain that if both Nosferatu and Glitch are scum, it would be very unusual for Tayl0r if she was scum, to distance from two scumbuddies at once like this. Tayl0r is also pushing very hard on Titus and she even started the D3 trying to drum up a wagon on Titus. Tayl0r is correct in pointing out that: "titus is in favor of pushing one particular lurker today, but not all of them. titus didnt join me in pushing a different lurker earlier. titus is not explaining what makes one lurker worthy of a vote while another Tayl0r also said: "youre defending nos without content. no one is saying "marashu is obvtown". we are just asking you to explain how you can say "nos is obvtown" when nos looks to me exactly like marashu does." It is a very important point since later in the game, Titus does just that by selectively going after me and protecting Nosferatu. Some people will argue that scum will distance. But in this game where we have not eliminated any scum, this assumption is upside down and I am more interested to see who protected who, and Titus deftly and definitively protected Nosferatu.

The attempt at a read on taylor just morphs into a repetition of his attack against titus, he doesn't really evaluate taylor's content or come away with a read (other than "not teamed with nosferatur and glitch"), just agrees with her for her points against titus which he's parroting. Paragraph is also really heavy on summarizing her actions, in keeping with Marashu's proclivity for IIoA.

I'm in an interesting position with Gypyx - we've played twice before, but both times I was scum and he was town. His attempt to figure out the mechanics and also make sure that things are clear is making me think of how he approached our last game together, where he proposed a mechanical solve for the game. This comment to Noraa stands out: "Yes I know that you suck at looking town, but even while knowing that, i'm suspicious of your playstyle rn" He is quick to attribute Noraa scumminess to playstyle issues, I can easily imagine soft hearted scum not wanting to go after Noraa. I don't think scum!Gypyx hammers town!Pete with only a few hours left before deadline. Gypyx also noticed this about Titus: "Where have peoples been scumreading nos for working with you??? I don't think you have gone in detail about the scuminess of marashu, i definetly don't see what's screaming scum in his posts on my own And nosferatu doesn't qualify a lurker who's defended withtout content?" Titus never really gave a satisfactory answer for that. And between his attempt at a Vecna wagon and an attempt at a Nos wagon, I have to give him credit for trying to eliminate scummy players based on solid reasoning.

This is also just not a good reason for townreading someone, finding a mechanical solution in an open setup is somehow supposed to be equal to idle speculation in a closed one? Point about him possibly be soft hearted scum not wanting to push nora is weird, doesn't fit with the rest of the paragraph. Townreading him just for hammering a deadline vote is also incredibly flawed? There's no benefit to scum for holding back there. Again, we have another read on a player that is proximate to heir read on titus: marashu seems to be basing his view of the game largely around how people treat titus, the one person who was scumreading him. It's like he's trying to wrap himself in a cloak of other players to shield himself from titus. Again, does a thing where he praises a player's posts, saying "I have to give him credit for trying to eliminate scummy players based on solid reasoning" but never actually outlines

what

that reasoning is supposed to be - also a very strange dissonance where someone gets credit from Marashu for wanting to eliminate vecna, who is dead and town, and how he detracts from people for voting for pete - hard to see why one is worthy of being townread while one isn't.

[maxwell]

It may be a bit late, but I want to

shamelessly sheep BM

send PL/PP to trial. VOTE: Pickaxe Pete

Pete not wanting to interact with any slot other than shellyc is not a good look.

I don't really remember anything townie from Pete or Vecna.

Lunch break post, so this will be a quick one (I can explain myself in about 4h) but I don't want it to come to random. If Glitch isn't happening, my compromise is Pete.

VOTE: Pickaxe Pete

Marashu kept trying to discredit people for voting pete in his reads, meanwhile he's almost everything he actually said about the slot while he was alive.

[maxwell]

VOTE: Marashu

unlikely to vote anyone else today.

[maxwell]

Wtf even is this day anymore

I mean, we're coming to a point where a deciion has to be made. Think Titus and Marashu have made their stances pretty clear as things have gone on, I laid my points out while I was catching up. What's confusing to you, exactly?

[maxwell]

Two are a normal crossvote and I don't feel comfortable voting in the other one. Not really that weird.

[maxwell]

Yeah probably Gypyx Glitch Marashu... like I have been saying

Meh, don't even know that he's scum although the persistence of his tunnel on my slot is pretty shitty. Would be typical for someone reading the game on a superficial level to be okay with marashu's inoffensive nothingposts while being offput by the deliberately abrasive Nosferatu. Think mostly people entered this day with their minds made up, doubt he read anything I posted.

[maxwell]

Not surprised, really. well played to you two. Not so much to most of the town.

[maxwell]

Will be interesting to see what the trial mechanics were, I suppose.

[maxwell]

Hmmmmm, shit, i hope that was the right choice

Are you scum, or unfathomably stupid?

[maxwell]

No need to be rude though

Only rude if you're town, which I'm getting the sense is no.

[maxwell]

How many ways could I say it Taylor and DGB? How many ways?

We had mara scum. Instead, you misexecuted the slot I have told you was town since day 1.

We, as a collective, deserve this loss.

..you realize that was a flagrant quickhammer, right? Come on.

[maxwell]

I know proper form is to wait for the mod to make the end of the game fficial but you don't have to gloat.

[maxwell]

Meh. Like I said, well played to the scumteam.

[maxwell]

maxwell if we're ever town together I'll sheep you as long as I'm alive, you had us dead to rights!

Eh, had it easy coming in on lylo with a fresh perspective, not as affected by noise or bias from past days. Fewer suspects so more likely to be accurate. My reads in my last couple games weren't nearly as strong.