FGO: Mafia in the Lostbelt (Game Over!)


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Post Post #5 (isolation #0) » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:28 am

Post by penguin_alien »

Back-up mod ego post. Have fun!
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Post Post #3408 (isolation #1) » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:35 am

Post by penguin_alien »

Spoilered since I'm assuming not everyone cares about my thoughts:

Spoiler: PA post-game thoughts:
Overall I suspect because this was in the Large Theme Queue people tended to think of it as a large theme, despite the fact that based on player number going into Night One it's guaranteed to be just like a Mini Theme, barring town no-burning or something foolish like that. So using powers and such should probably be done assuming the game won't get past about Day Five. (this applies to the game design as well, in that NP charges should probably have built up each phase, not just each day phase, to allow five-charge NPs to be practically used) Powers probably should have been scaled back in terms of shot number as well, with most everything being one-shots.

Master phase: I don't think that Mafia effectively ceding the Master was a bad strategy per se, but my sense from reading the PT and the posts was that it wasn't a deliberate choice as much as what ended up just happening. From a game-design perspective, if this general idea got run again, I'm wondering if the Mafia would need a higher incentive to obtain the Master benefits. Feedback welcome.

Town really connected quickly, at least in the top half of reads. I don't know how much Mafia could have interfered here given posting activity. Anon games leave a lot less room for stirring up animosities due to starting with clean slates.

I mentioned it in the spectator PT, but Ruler's reaction to Caster in the Lovers thread is so far off-base I'd be outting that shit in the game thread pronto. No townie gets excited about having their death tied to another player's of unknown alignment. It comes off as a hamfisted attempt to pocket Caster, which since Ruler is scum, he should know more about what's likely going on and proceed accordingly.

I'm not sure what the Mafia were going for Day Two. Saber is getting drawn into fights about Caster. Even if she doesn't know there's zero chance Assassin and Avenger support that wagon, right now I'm not sure they'd be set up to capitalize on the Ruler flip from the Caster burning.

After Day Two, I'm not sure much could have saved the Mafia team, given how things had played out. Blocking Assassin would have stopped Lancer's being the surefire elimination, but since Ruler was doomed after Caster's Loverize, I don't know what path to 3p endgame gives Lancer the win. As it turned out, Foreigner became more frameable as the game went on, but the list of misburns was short.


Spoiler: End of game thoughts on the Masterization mechanic/psychology behind choices:
So two parts: how it was set up and how it might be modified in the future. Much of this is pulled from my thoughts in the Spectator Thread, so bear with me in my repetition.

The set-up: First off, the number of people who didn't read and understand the mechanic was...interesting. I'm not sure if folks didn't read or if it was unclear. At any rate, the game premise means two things are true from the get-go: the initial goal is to town-hunt for a Master, and the anonymous nature means conflict is more slow-burning 90% of the time. No pre-existing grudges on the table, no preconceived notions. Players on this site (and in Werewolf overall, really) are primed to find scum upon game start. That's an acrimonious process that upsets the accused and makes folks nervous. Much better environment for Mafia to wade around in versus looking for who's mega-towny. Cabd has other thoughts on how a player list would optimally approach the Master phase, which I'll let him elaborate on, as it's more charisma-based, and that's his wheelhouse versus my logic-driven approaches.

The place where I personally feel the Mafia team really fell down here was a lack of planning and strategizing. They didn't have to be cohesive in the game thread, but there was very little discussion in the PT about whether they wanted to go for a Master upgrade or who would benefit them by getting it on the town side before the game started. Their overall approach to the Master phase, low-posting (which I get as a busy person IRL myself) and low-interest, left them out in the cold in many ways before the first burning votes even started. I realize that night actions went badly for the scum team as well, but a lot of that was a result of the suspicion they'd garnered during the first day phase. Some of it was their own night action choices (not neutralizing the town IC Night Two if not able to go for the kill with both strongman options off the table) but a world where Lancer didn't get investigated and Ruler didn't get Loverized looks very different for Day Three.

Assassin getting the IC designation really fucked the Mafia, as it turns out. Props to petapan: he didn't let it go to his head, he didn't disengage, and he read the game with a seemingly open mind. And they had no plan to deal with it, although Lancer giving him charges wasn't the worst idea. Even here though, feeding his own team given how far behind they were might have been better; YMMV.

Future thoughts on modifying this set-up: I think Mafia might need stronger incentives to go directly for the Master ability. Even though 10:3 with a strong scum team is a scum-sided Mini Game set-up, the allure of four living Mafia is strong. Better power-ups perhaps?

I'm also not sure if changing how the Masterization phase works would alter things (or even if it should). Private voting might allow Mafia to push for their ideal candidate even if it isn't one of them. Delaying Masterization until after the first Day One elimination might work too--make it a thing where a second elim only happens Day One with a town Master. It gives folks more data on where a Master might be useful, but it also increases the likelihood of a divided town.

During the review process this game felt potentially very scum-sided. I know I didn't account for how the anonymous nature and focus on town-hunting versus scum-hunting would change the lay of the land. Any future iterations probably wouldn't have the ability to grant Masterization to other players. The IC designation is clearly strong enough when used correctly.


Elsewhere, mod things I think we'd change with a time machine. We probably should have modified the town sample role PM to include the granting of two more Masters. It made a lot of sense to me, as if scum have the chance for three Master upgrades, so should town, but we erred on the side of not modifying opening post info after the fact, and it did influence the first day phase. For a more detailed breakdown of how it impacted the game from my perspective, see this Spectator Thread post here for my thoughts. We also erred on the side of having our provided safe claims to Mafia mirror their actual role PMs as closely as possible to reduce the odds of them getting called out for conflicting info, but that made several of them look quite scummy. You can judge for yourselves how in line that was with the fact that several town roles were scummy as hell also. I have a couple other thoughts on how the fake claims were used in some cases, but it factors in enough omniscience that I'm not comfortable ragging on anyone here.
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Post Post #3410 (isolation #2) » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:42 am

Post by penguin_alien »

Game Actions:

Day 1:
Rider neighborizes Alter Ego (Success)
Caster messengers Assassin (Fails due to Assassin passive skill, Caster gains one charge of NP)
Assassin Masterizes Avenger (Success)


Night 1:
Beast Sings (roleblocks skills and any factional kill action) at Saber (successful)
Avenger uses Annihilation Wish on Caster (successful; result: Caster is Town)
Foreigner uses Nom de Plume on Beast (successful; adds Beast as the Beast portrait)
Assassin Ninjutsu's (PT cops) Caster (successful; result: Caster does not have a PT)
Caster Loverizes Ruler (successful; PT received at start of Day Two)
Berserker Tracks and Follows Moon Cancer (successful; Moon Cancer visits Rider with an investigative action)
Alter Ego redirects to Caster (successful; nothing happens)
Moon Cancer copies investigative results from Rider (successful; nothing)
Rider does nothing


Saber Ninja kills Avenger (fails, Beast RB'd)
Ruler does nothing
Lancer gifts Assassin an NP charge and gains one himself (success)


Day 2:
Beast Sings...Berserker (NP sealed for the day) (successful)
Assassin grants the master upgrade to Caster (success)


Night 2:
Beast Sings! a night post (successful)
Alter Ego does nothing (does not gain a charge because Berserker targets her)
Berserker tracks Alter Ego (successful; Alter Ego visited no one)
Rider greedy-doctors Assassin (successful, but no kill prevented, so no charges lost)
Avenger predicts Lancer's survival (successful and correct; Avenger had two stacks of evil)
Caster does nothing (shitposts successfully though!)
Assassin PT cops Lancer (successful, Lancer has a PT)
Moon Cancer gets results that Ruler gets (successful, nothing)


Ruler kills Avenger (successful)
Lancer gifts Assassin an NP charge and gains one himself (successful)


Day 3:
Caster uses NP on Beast: (successful, posts results in main game thread)

Ruler uses skill to decrease NP charge of Foreigner: (successful, foreigner immediately loses one charge)


Night 3:
Ruler kills Assassin (Fails)

Rider greedy-doctors Assassin (Does not prevent a kill, Assassin keeps NP charges)
Alter Ego redirects all actions on self to Ruler (Successful, nothing happens though)
Moon Cancer uses Faceless Moon to force Ruler to repeat the previous night's actions: (Ruler's action is changed to "Kill Avenger")
Beast Sings (roleblocks skills and any factional kill action) at Ruler (Success: Ruler is prevented from desecrating Avenger's corpse)
Assassin uses Immortal Chaos Bridgade (NP) on Moon Cancer: Success, some of Moon Cancer's traits provided to Assassin as a result: Super-Large, Divine, Giant
Caster intentionally does not act.
Berserker intentionally does not act.

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