Smuggler's Port [Game Over]

[Radical Rat]

Alright so.
I want to execute Menalque because I have no idea how to read him and that in turn interferes with all my other reads. I'm probably scumreading him I think? But also he said in the dead thread last game we were in together that he does scummy things on purpose to make them not scummy. So yeah, I haven't figured out how to read him, and him interacting with people then makes it hard for me to read them, so I have to have him dead to read the rest of the game.

I hope that makes some kind of sense.
VOTE: Execute Menalque
VOTE: Ship Copper
VOTE: Inspect Linen

[Radical Rat]

I did have other things to contribute, but shit happened IRL and I forgot. I'll probably have to read the game again later tbh.

[Radical Rat]

I did have other things to contribute, but shit happened IRL and I forgot. I'll probably have to read the game again later tbh.

WOW ok

I honestly don't understand what problem you have with this?

because the only thing he talked about was mena and I’m not sure how thats the only thing you can remember and pay attention to but also not remember anything else

Well it isn't so much that I don't remember anything else, so much as I don't know what to think of what I do remember. The bit about Menalque was partially typed out before the aforementioned IRL shit happened, which made it easier to remember what I was saying. Though even then, you can probably tell my focus was destroyed partway through.

Aside from Menalque, I remember a lot of people not reading the setup, Hel being very noisy about the Tomboy Daughter, and some Danganronpa sprites being thrown around.

I'll be able to skim back through and be more substantial in probably.... Two hours? Hold me accountable to that.

[Radical Rat]

Terrible timing on my part really, but I didn't want to just not post, so yeah.
Anyway, see you folks in a couple hours.

[Radical Rat]

Welp, my two hours are up, so let's just start with that.

I don't really like it, but the plan there IS solid. No risk of hitting TD if PA has the final word on executions, and if they were to try to engage with the game normally that would probably make the TD obvious. And with no night kill, I can't really think of a reason PA shouldn't claim, so... Yeah.


Going to now answer the questions that we're directed at me, try to read again, and then establish myself properly

[Radical Rat]

@Radical Rat why did you vote to inspect Linen

Because I think there's probably going to be at least one scum that doesn't bother to switch their merchandise.

Also why do you plan on shipping Copper?

No particular reason, I just like it best.

I have no idea how to read him

I'm probably scumreading him I think?

Reconcile these two things for me, RR

Well, if you had read literally the next sentence, you'd have it reconciled already, but to clarify a bit.

You have made posts I think are scummy (will get to those).
In our previous game, you immediately hammered me without warning as soon as you replaced in, with plenty of time before deadline and while I was inactive.
After you got executed the next day, you expressed in the dead thread that you intentionally do scummy things as Town, because you want to challenge the perception of these actions as scummy.

Now, there's an interesting theory discussion to be had about that, and in a way I actually admire it. But, until I get more experience with you, it also means that I can't trust myself to determine whether you're doing scummy things because you're Town being weird, or Scum using that as a shield.

[Radical Rat]

hardclaim port authority

datisi is the tomboy daughter

Ship: linen

Vote: Iconeum

for an

iconic

D1 execution![/b]

See, it's shit like this. I know it's PROBABLY a joke, but what if it isn't? What if this is Town trying to double bluff to throw off scum? What if it's scum knowing that being counterclaimed on this is a horrible idea for the real ones to do? I know I'm probably reading way too much into this, but it weighed on me all thread until we got an actual PA claim.

hardclaim port authority

datisi is the tomboy daughter

Ship: linen

Vote: Iconeum

for an

iconic

D1 execution![/b]

this is literally menalque's town meta

yes

i remember the darkness of that game

But I’m aware it’s my town meta so

can you be sure?

And this sure isn't helping me un-WIFOM myself.

Despite my typical inclination towards town, I'm actually slightly disappointed to not have been made mafia here.

I don't consider myself a bad scumhunter necessarily, but I have no doubt that figuring out the TD as scum would be a much easier task for me.

I'm getting scum vibes here. Like "Oh darn, it sure is a shame I rolled TOWN and not scum, because I'm TOWN, and also I should mention I'm TOWN!"
I also found the rest of their posts to be largely fluff with no real conviction.

Get off your copper high horse, Titus. Wheat is superior in every way. What you going to do when the war comes and food runs low, huh? I'll be here with my delicious wheat while you can try munching down on your precious copper.

I take my copper blade, stab you, and then use it to harvest wheat.

I don't remember why I quoted this, but Titus is right, Copper is better than Wheat.

snip~

My problem with the PA outting early is that scum will know who they're trying to drive executions away from

I feel like we should make them have to work for it

I agree with this, but welp. Moot point now aside from slight towncred to GL.

Also setup spec is a good way for scum to avoid scum hunting this has been my ted talk

Normally, sure, but in a game like this setup spec is exactly how we're going to find scum.

Tomboy Daughter Reads

Maki Harukawa

- Classic Donnie is at it again. She's overcompensating here and trying to say she has nothing to fear if scum want to check her meta.

username

- He knows about the ToDa wincon but not this one? For most it'd be the other way around. Very daughterly.

Titus

- Look through her ISO. She hasn't even mentioned the Daughter once. She's terrified of talking about her because she

is

her.

-----------------

maxwell

- He agreed with my early strat of putting people we think are town on the checks to get clears. That's a terrible strat and outs Tommy, so he's never Tomboy here.

Hel

- She just seems so oblivious and lost, and she even said she wasn't ToDa. I don't think she'd lie if she was actually the Daughter.

I really, really hate this post. I know it's a joke, but it still comes uncomfortably close to helping scum I think. Maybe if these "reads" didn't have reasoning I'd be less put off by it, but oof.



And I THINK that covers everything I wanted to talk about before.

[Radical Rat]

Because I think there's probably going to be at least one scum that doesn't bother to switch their merchandise.

why do you want to try to get a guilty > try to get a bunch if innos

Because if scum is on a ship, guilTea doesn't give any information about the TD. If a ship is clean, scum knows there's no TD in that group.

[Radical Rat]

But, until I get more experience with you, it also means that I can't trust myself to determine whether you're doing scummy things because you're Town being weird, or Scum using that as a shield.

Not being able to read me is fine, but does it not make more sense to default to assuming I’m town than assuming I’m scum given that there is a much higher mathematical chance of that in any given game?

Because gambler's fallacy.

Seriously though, it's not that I'm defaulting to you as scum so much as just... Trying to not talk myself out of scumreading you?

Though for what it's worth I do actually think I was wrong and you are Town for less WIFOM reasons now. Prove me right, k?

[Radical Rat]

ah man i sure do hope norwee didn't influence your answer!

I mean, that kind of thing was brought up earlier too I'm pretty sure. I think it was Titus who said it? But yeah, guilTea > inno

[Radical Rat]

So here's my thinking about shipments.

We send half the living players on Linen, and the other half on Copper. Who gets on which is largely irrelevant.
Conftown players get to go on the wheat ship. Today that would be NK15, provided they confirm themselves on the inspection report. Which if they don't do is a scumclaim.

We investigate either Linen or Copper, whichever we feel is more likely to have scum onboard. If Inno, everyone onboard moves to Wheat duty, and we execute from the other ship. If guilTea, we execute there.

Thoughts?

[Radical Rat]

Oh also, I'm down with Menalque's plan.

VOTE: Execute Hel I guess.

[Radical Rat]

Also also, I'm a bit confused about Datisi. Listed pronoun is He, but everyone who seems to know Datisi is using she? Which one should I be using?

[Radical Rat]

Shit plan. The ships being investigated are too large. It’s basically pointless.

You know the riddle about like. You have five gold coins, and one of them is fake but weighs slightly more, and you have two uses of a balance scale to figure out which one is fake? Sometimes it's five pills and one is poison instead, but anyway the solution is to compare two on each side, then compare the two from the heavier side. If both sides are equal the first check, the one you didn't measure is fake.

That's where I'm coming from here.
Ships are large now, yes, but if we hit inno, we cut the pool in half, and if we hit guilTea we just make extra sure to lynch scum.
Since we only have to hit scum twice, I think that's manageable before the pool gets small enough to out the TD

[Radical Rat]

@RadicalRat
Did you intend for the pool of people we investigate to be deliberate or random?

Deliberate

[Radical Rat]

Because I think there's probably going to be at least one scum that doesn't bother to switch their merchandise.

saying this aloud because...?

Because I was asked why I was inspecting Linen, and that's the reason?

Though for what it's worth I do actually think I was wrong and you are Town for less WIFOM reasons now. Prove me right, k?

what are the less WIFOM reasons?

Having an actual Port Authority claim makes me feel more at ease with all the memeing, and though I do maintain NK15 shouldn't have claimed, here we are.
I like his proposed alternative plan to NK's, and scum doesn't really have much motivation to try to argue with a plan that would probably lead to exploitable Town apathy, especially not when doing so involves challenging an IC.

There were a couple of other recent posts I liked as well, and I think Town really needs to present a unified front in this game, so I'm fine letting him be Town unless he does something else that raises scum flags.

[Radical Rat]

i guess my issue is that if you announce that "at least one scum probably won't bother to switch from Linen", that's kinda an announcement to said scum, no?

Sure, but I don't really see it as a huge revelation that will affect scumplay. If there was a scum lurking and they decide to pop in and dodge the inspection, that's just going to look way worse than if they had played it cool.

Because I think there's probably going to be at least one scum that doesn't bother to switch their merchandise.

saying this aloud because...?

Because I was asked why I was inspecting Linen, and that's the reason?

i guess my issue is that if you announce that "at least one scum probably won't bother to switch from Linen", that's kinda an announcement to said scum, no?

Though for what it's worth I do actually think I was wrong and you are Town for less WIFOM reasons now. Prove me right, k?

what are the less WIFOM reasons?

Having an actual Port Authority claim makes me feel more at ease with all the memeing

, and though I do maintain NK15 shouldn't have claimed, here we are.
I like his proposed alternative plan to NK's, and scum doesn't really have much motivation to try to argue with a plan that would probably lead to exploitable Town apathy, especially not when doing so involves challenging an IC.

There were a couple of other recent posts I liked as well, and I think Town really needs to present a unified front in this game, so I'm fine letting him be Town unless he does something else that raises scum flags.

err, why? like, (unless mena and nk15 are scum together and this is an elaborate galaxy brain gambit, but for the sake of my sanity let's say it's not) mena - regardless of his alignment - had no way of knowing the PA was going to claim. i don't get why the claim has an effect on your read of the memeing?

Honestly, I don't know myself. I guess it just gives me peace of mind that it probably WAS just a meaningless joke, and not either the literal worst possible move for Town to make or a crazy scumstrat made to look like that.

[Radical Rat]

Ugh, I thought I did the quoting correctly. Cursed phoneposting.

[Radical Rat]

Why is randomness preferable to Scum plotting and (potentially) making a mistake? Or at least leaving some kind of pattern to it that we could pick up on?

[Radical Rat]

though also seem a bit like cat-herding; his plan in 460 requires close to unanimous agreement to be workable

Correct, so can I count on your support?

[Radical Rat]

Why is randomness preferable to Scum plotting and (potentially) making a mistake? Or at least leaving some kind of pattern to it that we could pick up on?

First, people will have reactions to a plot suggestion. Those can help determine alignments.

Second, determining if scum made a mistake is near impossible without knowing which wincondition they go for. Each wincondition would want a different setup on investigations. If scum go for wincondition A but the investigation matches wincondition B, that hurts scum.

I don't think there's much difference in the wincons anyway. No matter which one is their primary objective, scum needs to stay alive and find the TD. I don't want to go into too much detail, but I really don't see much room for divergence.
And even then, I don't see how randomness helps at all. I much prefer letting scum do things that might get them caught instead of offloading to luck.

[Radical Rat]

I have to think about it more. I'm worried that innoing half the players reduces cover for the TD too much; for example we could end up with a pool of 8 confirmed innos and then 7 players of whom three are smugglers and one is the TD. Given that this is the pool we're executing from this makes it very easy for them to narrow that down.

Well, ideally the TD would just play like any of the rest of us, preventing scum from picking up anything in-thread. So that would give them a pool of four or five depending on whether the 8 ship or the 7 ship gets the inno. We'll assume four, so scum has a 25% chance of correctly identifying TD in this case.

I think that's acceptable if it comes down to it. We just need to be sure not to misclown.

[Radical Rat]

There is an absolute difference in wincons.

If they feel they cannot survive lynches, they'd use the shipments to narrow down the TD. Thus, they'd pile onto one.

If they can survive via lynching, they'd spread out.

By doing random, it removes the choice.

Yes, those are the two approaches they could take, though either could easily serve either wincon. But again. Why is removing the choice a good thing? Why would we deny ourselves the opportunity to watch for a scum pattern?

[Radical Rat]

if it were a crazy scumstart, how'd you expect mena to act once the Real PA came out?

Doubling down on a suicidal counterclaim. Removing the PA also removes the TD's only real protection, and while it would make her harder to identify, if NK15 holds true to not really playing except to approve executions, he probably wouldn't help much anyway.

So then the TD is available to misclown and win that way, and after Menalque flips scum, you'd probably get pushed as his partner. Not sure if the execution would actually happen or not, but I think this rabbit hole is deep enough as it is.

[Radical Rat]

Kuribo's right though that trying to bait out anger, regardless of identity, is probably scummy. If you are Town it's just a good way to get yourself death tunneled (See: current situation).

[Radical Rat]

I'm comfortable sheeping on this.

VOTE: Execute notscience

Tentative scumteam guess: notscience/Hel/Moment.

[Radical Rat]

Well, I did say

crazy

scumstrat.
Plus, there's always the possibility you're scum with him. You are right about waiting to do the execution, but I also feel like it would kind of dominate the discussion and make it really difficult to get much else done.

Regardless, none of this happened, and I don't think there's much to be gained from playing this entire hypothetical game out.

[Radical Rat]

earlier scummy vibes and here 'not really liking the plan, but thinking it's solid nontheless'?

Still catching up, but I just want to clarify that I meant I don't like that NK15 claimed so early so that he could drive the executions while also not even really playing. It makes the game less fun, and I think Port Authority is more valuable hidden.
However, since he DID claim, the plan he proposed was indeed solid. I didn't (and don't) LIKE it, but it would have a pretty good chance of working.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, so. Idk what NK15 is at right now, but after a VC I intend to vote there unless it's hammering.

I don't like that Ico claimed instead of just letting the lack of confirmation on the inspection condemn NK instead, but what's done is done.

I would like to now amend my earlier plan for inspections. I want NK15 alone on a ship, and we investigate that one. Ico also confirms its claim of course.

Hopefully they're both Town and this is all just a huge misunderstanding, but as of right now I'm feeling NK15 is scummier out of this situation.

P-Edit: I'm a dumbass and typed this out nearly 20 hours ago but forgot to hit post. Pretend this was on Page 36, and I'll read again and hopefully be current in the morning.

[Radical Rat]

Page 38, my bad.

Past few days have been a bit rough on me, sorry for the constant disorientation

[Radical Rat]

Okay, I skimmed instead of sleeping, and yeah, I stand by everything I said above with a side of Large Suspicion on everyone insisting NK15 has to die RIGHT NOW or he somehow survives the whole game.

We have the means to get either a modclear or modguilty on him. His fakeclaim strat makes no sense as Town, and very little sense as Scum, and I see no downside to making sure before we kill anybody.

Also I'm now reading my earlier post and don't know why I said I'd be voting NK15 at the same time as saying I want to investigate him instead... I guess I changed my mind mid-post? Idfk.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, so. Idk what NK15 is at right now, but after a VC I intend to vote there unless it's hammering.

I don't like that Ico claimed instead of just letting the lack of confirmation on the inspection condemn NK instead, but what's done is done.

I would like to now amend my earlier plan for inspections. I want NK15 alone on a ship, and we investigate that one. Ico also confirms its claim of course.

Hopefully they're both Town and this is all just a huge misunderstanding, but as of right now I'm feeling NK15 is scummier out of this situation.

P-Edit: I'm a dumbass and typed this out nearly 20 hours ago but forgot to hit post. Pretend this was on Page 36, and I'll read again and hopefully be current in the morning.

i don't really like this idea for a variety of reasons

and i'm also contemplating not pushing NK for execution today
we can put him in the investigation bracket, but not by himself

Why not by himself? If he's Town and Scum winds up on the same ship, then we just end up Misclowning him anyway. If he's Scum, then having any number of other people on that ship doesn't give us any more information than if he were alone.

[Radical Rat]

Why not by himself? If he's Town and Scum winds up on the same ship, then we just end up Misclowning him anyway. If he's Scum, then having any number of other people on that ship doesn't give us any more information than if he were alone.

I would still like an answer to this please.

[Radical Rat]

Also HARD disagree with NK15 and maxwell that having a claimed PA this early is good. Honestly, PA should probably have gone the whole game without claiming, instead gently guiding us away from investigating the TD, because guess what? EVEN IF Ico had claimed in Post #1, confirmed identity in the first report, and then the slot never made a single other post in the game... that's one less player for scum to potentially guess wrong about being TD.

This game should not have been turned into Follow The IC, and I'm really quite annoyed at this whole situation. Honestly, the more I think about it the more it seems likely to me that NK15 was scum sacrificing himself in the hopes of baiting out the real PA. I'm still not executing him today when we have the means to 100% confirm his alignment, but yeah.

[Radical Rat]

Because we can check a group of people today and get more info that way, spending an entire check on a single guy means we have much less to work with tomorrow.

We have five days to catch two out of three scum. Four inspections to work with.
Normally, I'd agree that we should be checking more people. See my first plan for inspections, where I proposed doing half the game at once.

In this particular instance though, using the inspection as a public cop check seems smarter. Misclowns are much more dangerous than a sub-optimal inspection in this set up, and while I AM currently scumreading NK15, I'd like to be sure he's not just Town who made a giant mistake scum's taking advantage of. So I want him alive, and I want his ship inspected. If we do get other people on that ship, the only way we get substantially more information is if the result is clean, but then that also helps the scumteam just as much. Putting NK on alone gives us information that we can use to avoid killing a Merchant, and tells scum nothing that they don't already know. This is the correct play.

I know my mind's been a bit scattered this game, but this I am absolutely sure on.

[Radical Rat]

It's such wishful thinking to me to think that NK15 is scum. Either wishful thinking or pure laziness.

People just see "Oh, looks like he got caught fakeclaiming" and their brains stop thinking past that point. There can't be any more nuance, anyone who did that must be scum. Yes SS, I've already heard and responded to you talking about the scum motivation, you don't need to say it again. I feel as though you're making a failure of theory of mind – I don't think you're properly trying to think from NK15's perspective. I think his posts from the rest of this day strongly evidence the fact that he has pretty strong convictions in the setup that you're not considering when you think about motivation.

To anyone who says anything along the line of "well he'll always be a question mark so we have to deal with him", your mindset is truly flawed. There is nothing forcing your hand. Any sort of "obligation" you feel is completely constructed. Obviously you feel as though he's scum for what he's done, but my main point here is that that's just an

element

of a

read

, not any sort of obligation that something "must" happen. I say this because I think thinking along the lines of how someone "has to die anyways" is poison to thought. I have experienced it before where someone

agreed with me

on reasons to townread someone they thought had to die before endgame, and yet

still

they said "It doesn't matter anyways if I townread her, because she can't live to lylo".

There, just as it is here, I feel that once people had constructed in their head that someone could not live to the endgame, the relevance of reads on that player was out. Death eventually had to come, and specific arguments didn't really matter because of course she has to die anyways. I don't feel as though that mindset is germane to having a discussion or to winning the game.

This upsets me even further because NK15 is already among the least eloquent, least charismatic, most mislynched players on the entire site. If you're wondering why I keep making comments about making the same mistakes over and over, it's because I see the same players get lynched over and over by the same other players. Adding the situation with the PA on top of that is just too much. I was in the same situation as NK15 once upon a time, and I got out of it only through a grueling few days of

constant

argumentation

and

pushing a wagon on scum over myself. Of course NK15 was never going to get out of it. It just feels so unjust.


I wonder if some people even believe in the scumread themselves – truly believe, rather than just belief in belief. You're calling him a "douche" and getting really angry at him. What's the point of that if it was just a scum ploy to do whatever?

the one thing i was unsure about was how to handle these douches who thought it was smart to fake claim PA and try to fake-lead on town

This is a very good post.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: norway

Talk me through this one? I'm thinking nulltown on him myself, he seems to be pretty genuine, and though some of his pushes have been for weak reasons, it IS D1.

[Radical Rat]

Except that having the PA a known force in the game driving all the executions has a significantly higher chance of outing the TD than a carefully playing hidden PA, as now scum will be scrutinizing every single read or post or suggestion Ico makes to try to figure it out.

Also, literally no one is suggesting we just DON'T SORT NK15...

In fact, let's get you "sorted," shall we?
VOTE: Execute maxwell

[Radical Rat]

I'm not saying that we all blindfold ourselves and stumble mindlessly through the game. I'm also not saying that the PA shouldn't work to protect the TD. I'm saying that the PA does this from the shadows, without claiming that's who they are or what they're doing. Think of it like defending your mason buddy before you're ready or able to claim being masons.

This also ignores the fact that the TD is an active player in the game with (presumably) a brain. She'd be trying to avoid being on the inspected ship, while otherwise playing the game normally, hunting scum, making reads, the usual.

Now that the PA is outed, it has two options. Refrain from posting as much as possible, or drop scum tons of clues about who the TD is. That's bad for us as a Town.

[Radical Rat]

Sure, we won't execute the TD by accident. But if we ever try to and PA has to block it? We lose anyway, because now scum knows who she is.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, what if they're all scum? We execute one, and then what? We check the same people again?

[Radical Rat]

Misclowns are much more dangerous than a sub-optimal inspection in this set up

Say what? Inspection is the only advantage we have, otherwise the game is the scumsided hellscape that Moment described. Most games have town executions because no town has perfect read accuracy, especially on D1 when we have no information from the mechanics yet (aside from Icon coming out).

I'm not saying we DON'T investigate. In fact, that's literally the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying we use today's investigation specifically to get 100% confirmation about the alignment of a slot that could just as easily be easy misclown bait as it could be suicidal scum. I'm pretty sure he's scum, but we have the means to be absolutely sure, so I think we should use those means.

And yes, most games do have town executions. Most games also don't have a mechanic where scum can turn a loss into a win by pointing out a specific Town player. Extra caution is warranted in this case, to prevent doing scum's job for them.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, what if they're all scum? We execute one, and then what? We check the same people again?

That is extremely unlikely, but: tomorrow, if we find tea in that group, we eliminate one, and re-inspect half of the remaining players in our day 1 inspection, no matter what. If we eliminate scum AND catch them with the second inspection, great! We literally win the game because we had a good pool and PoE'd scum early.

This is great if it works, but my problem is the only way we get definite information is if the result is innocent. But in that case, scum benefits more than we do anyway because it's removing 3-5 names from their pool of TD candidates. A list that is already down to either 12 if NK is Town, 13 if he's not. Right now we have an opportunity that is unlikely to present itself again. An unconfirmed player outside of the potential TD list, who is in danger of being executed. A clear result on NK and NK alone provides scum with 0 new information, AND saves us a misclown. A guilTea result gives us a guaranTead scum kill, and still gives no new information to scum.

For the remaining checks we can do the small group method, but this particular check should be specific.

[Radical Rat]

We also have the means to be absolutely sure of 3-4 people being town. That doesn't sound better to you?

Under normal circumstances, yes, however:

Okay, what if they're all scum? We execute one, and then what? We check the same people again?

That is extremely unlikely, but: tomorrow, if we find tea in that group, we eliminate one, and re-inspect half of the remaining players in our day 1 inspection, no matter what. If we eliminate scum AND catch them with the second inspection, great! We literally win the game because we had a good pool and PoE'd scum early.

This is great if it works, but my problem is the only way we get definite information is if the result is innocent. But in that case, scum benefits more than we do anyway because it's removing 3-5 names from their pool of TD candidates. A list that is already down to either 12 if NK is Town, 13 if he's not. Right now we have an opportunity that is unlikely to present itself again. An unconfirmed player outside of the potential TD list, who is in danger of being executed. A clear result on NK and NK alone provides scum with 0 new information, AND saves us a misclown. A guilTea result gives us a guaranTead scum kill, and still gives no new information to scum.

For the remaining checks we can do the small group method, but this particular check should be specific.

[Radical Rat]

My primary concern is that a guilTea result on a hypothetical Town!NK who is on a ship with other slots is a wasted execution, because realistically there's no way in hell he's getting away after being caught on a tea boat after this stunt.

If it were literally anyone else, I wouldn't be pushing this so hard because it will be much harder for scum to push a misclown without a fakeclaim to attack.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, I'll relent on this actually.

After typing and deleting many attempts at both, my previous post and this one, I've come to the conclusion that I'm being pessimistic with regards to our collective ability to scumhunt in the presence of Objectively Anti-Town Behavior, because it just feels too easy, while simultaneously being optimistic about our collective ability to scumhunt just through conversation. As a result, I'm getting caught up in unlikely scenarios that haven't happened yet and losing objectivity.

I do maintain my earlier stance that having a claimed PA is more of a liability than an asset, and I do still think we should wait to execute NK15 until tomorrow, but I'll let the inspection happen in a group. I'll also volunteer myself to be in that group because I know I probably don't look super great right now, and wouldn't mind getting cleared alongside NK if it comes down to that.

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE: Execution

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Execute Not Known 15

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE: Execution

[Radical Rat]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Ship Linen
VOTE: Inspect Wheat
VOTE: Execute Maki Harukawa

[Radical Rat]

I'll admit my early stance on Menalque was trash, yeah. I attributed too much of my confusion to him when in reality it was due to several of the people shitposting, as well as my own mental state at the time. I also expected myself to caught up tunneling him and figured getting him out of the way fast was the best way around that.

I'm still not at all confident in reading him, but I'm definitely not still in favor of essentially policy clowning on him.

[Radical Rat]

how many votes is Maki at now? I think I'm already voting to inspect wheat

4/9 by my count.

[Radical Rat]

This was absolutely avoidable, and I agree that this isn't fun.

NK15 shouldn't have fakeclaimed, Ico shouldn't have counterclaimed, and NK15 definitely shouldn't be getting out of this without being executed or inspected...

But here we are anyway, best to just go with it for now, and we can always just... Not listen to Ico next time if we don't wanna.

[Radical Rat]

Although I will say that Maki "not posting anything AI" within an entire week is probably AI in itself? Idk, guess we'll find out.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, absolutely bonkers idea here, buuuut

Iconeum/NK15/notscience scumteam.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, absolutely bonkers idea here, buuuut

Iconeum/NK15/notscience scumteam.

I'm happy to entertain bonkers ideas, but I really can't imagine the PA not outing if this were the case.

See, I agree with this, but I also can't imagine Ico not outing when it ALREADY CLAIMED. The only explanation is that Ico fakeclaimed, which would have been suicidal if NK actually were the PA. And if Ico is Town, it can't know that NK was fakeclaiming. Scum!Ico also can't know that Town!NK was faking.

But a crazy scum Gambit in which no matter which one of them gets branded the fake and lynched, the other looks Town??? Might just work.

[Radical Rat]

I think notscience is a good execution for today.

NK15 needs to be in the investigation pool though, remember all that talk about how we can't let him live to endgame? That's what's going to happen if we keep putting off dealing with the slot.

[Radical Rat]

Also, I have no intention of following Iconeum's direction from now on. As far as I'm concerned, by failing to identify in the report, it's forfeited its claim to the role.

[Radical Rat]

icon not revealing himself was likely dumb and him not knowing tbh

How? It's in the setup post. It's in the role PM. It's been talked about in thread several times. I don't see how it could possibly be unaware of that unless it just... Literally is not reading the game, in which case what the hell was the deal with dictating the execution and inspection yesterday?

[Radical Rat]

@Mod: What happens if we do accidentally execute the PA? Will we still receive Inspection Reports?

[Radical Rat]

RR you're spewing yourself NOT TD btw

Yeah, I already fucked that up yesterday so I'm not terribly worried about keeping up appearances now.

It's in the role PM.

it is?
tell me where it is in there

Apparently I was mistaken, I just assumed it would have been in there since normally role PMs go over all the actions you can perform. My bad there, but it is still in the setup and has been mentioned in thread by multiple people, multiple times.

[Radical Rat]

I still don't see a reason Ico needs to confirm itself as PA

So that we don't have a reason to doubt the claim?

[Radical Rat]

Well, I'm not believing it until it's confirmed.

[Radical Rat]

You also completely overlook one thing about notscience whiteknighting Maki: If notscience is in the pool, why is it a good idea to fight a town lynch? They are essentially dead if they are scum anyways.

Because if they got townread off of that, we would execute someone else in that pool of three first, thus wasting a day. Sure, they'll die eventually, but every day wasted is another day closer to a scum autowin.

[Radical Rat]

I would like for Moment/Datisi/NK15 to be the inspection today, with notscience as the execution (I'm only not voting there now because inspections aren't set up yet).

If notscience flips Town, we execute either Moment or Datisi.
If notscience flips Scum, which I think is the more likely scenario, then if tea is found we just execute one of those each day, and we're guaranteed to hit the second scum by the D5 limit. If tea isn't found, then we know NK15 was Town, and don't have to worry about that slot anymore.

[Radical Rat]

Because i want there to at least be a chance to get another guilty. I’m town and i don’t scumread NK15. Sure it would confirm our innocence, but for me myself it wouldn’t help at all. I’d like to have S_S in there.

This is scum. You're setting it up so that when tea gets found on your ship, we misclown S_S instead of executing you.

[Radical Rat]

Because i want there to at least be a chance to get another guilty. I’m town and i don’t scumread NK15. Sure it would confirm our innocence, but for me myself it wouldn’t help at all. I’d like to have S_S in there.

This is scum. You're setting it up so that when tea gets found on your ship, we misclown S_S instead of executing you.

I don't know how to tell you this but scum left in the pool is going to get caught anyway.

Yes, but it's time wasted, and more time for them to figure out the TD. In a setup where scum can win after getting caught and executed, getting caught anyway isn't really much of a deterrent, but delaying that a day or two is very valuable.

[Radical Rat]

Also i feel irrational hatred towards anyone that uses the term: "misclown".
Such a stupid substitute.

Misexecute is too many syllables, and I like the visual of just. Slamming a pie in the face of the execution target.

I won't deny it's stupid, but it's fun.


ANYWAY
VOTE: Inspect Wheat
I would still prefer to recheck Moment/Datisi, but I suppose that can be done tomorrow.

[Radical Rat]

I agree that NK should be added.

If he's Town, he already can't be the daughter since he would have known Menalque's joke claim was a joke.
If he's Scum, we're all gonna look REAL stupid at the end after not investigating or executing him after a fakeclaim like that.

Scum gains nothing extra from including him, but Town does.

[Radical Rat]

Don't need Icon's blessing. The only reason it's "picking" the inspections is so the TD doesn't get hit by one. That's already settled, so no need for you to stall.

[Radical Rat]

Okay Ico, why SHOULDN'T we investigate NK? What do we gain from NOT checking him?

[Radical Rat]

Being the PA does not make you infallible. I'm still not happy with your claim, and honestly still not even 100% convinced of it, but in the absence of a more credible claim I have to accept it.
But yeah, I'm not just going to agree with everything you say because you're the PA. I'm willing to work with you on things, though I do recognize that my attitude toward your claim may make that... less pleasant than it could be.

That question was genuine and in good faith though. Why shouldn't we investigate NK? If there's a compelling reason why not to, then sure, take him off. But otherwise, I see no downside to it.

[Radical Rat]

Alright then

VOTE: Ship Wheat

[Radical Rat]

Only thing I'm fishing for is the TRUTH

[Radical Rat]

in case it's not clear what I'm saying is that you're pointlessly asking repeatedly for information that can't possibly benefit the town

If you're referring to my distaste and distrust for Ico's PA claim... I suppose I should clarify that ANOTHER PA claim is the absolute last thing I want to happen. I WOULD like for Ico to just confirm the damn role for my own peace of mind, but I would also rather have just... Not had the claim in the first place. I hate having to have blind trust in a role like this, and I hate having a slot that can't properly engage with the game because it claimed too early, and I hate that the response to the fakeclaim that started this whole mess is to just. NOT investigate the slot.

I'm trying to be practical about this, but damn does it leave a sour taste in my mouth.

[Radical Rat]

I know this, and I am very annoyed by it.

[Radical Rat]

My preferred investigation is the same as it was yesterday. Moment/Datisi/NK15.

All three are known to not be TD, and I still REALLY think NK15 needs to be checked especially, but clearing out Moment/Datisi is also a very good thing to do.


As for execution....... I don't know yet. I was expecting at least one of Norwee or SS to be scum at the end of the day there.

[Radical Rat]

If it's any consolation, I WAS leaning SS after he was stalling getting onto the Wheat boat so much.

[Radical Rat]

I mean, I get why Moment/Datisi are LIKELY Town, but also I know that if I were scum, I would absolutely try to hide on a ship with my buddy, expecting the Town to stop after finding one scum there.

I do recognize that this couldn't really have been done intentionally in this instance since Iconeum decided the pool, but if Ico DID happen to find multiple scum there, they could definitely still try to coast off that.

[Radical Rat]

Basically just a way of making sure no scum slip under the radar like that.

[Radical Rat]

I'm alright with Maxwell/Umlaut, it's just that Moment/Datisi/NK is going to haunt me all game until we know For Sure that they're clear.

[Radical Rat]

I mean, I get why Moment/Datisi are LIKELY Town, but also I know that if I were scum, I would absolutely try to hide on a ship with my buddy, expecting the Town to stop after finding one scum there.

I do recognize that this couldn't really have been done intentionally in this instance since Iconeum decided the pool, but if Ico DID happen to find multiple scum there, they could definitely still try to coast off that.

Yeah but I also think they’d be aware that in a game like this there would be the potential for there being strong mechanical reasons to check there again post-scumflip and so I agree with whoever said that they’d expect them to have bussed harder to take advantage of being in that pool with someone they knew would flip red

Unless they were ALSO aware that they'd be expected to bus harder....
Which is getting into WIFOM territory yes, which is why I don't really want to execute any of them today, but really, really want an investigation.

[Radical Rat]

radical, you read like you're confbiasing and tunnelled. like, you're talking about how you'd as scum definitely want to hide on the same ship as your buddy while then immediately saying you know that can't be the case here when we weren't the ones choosing to get on the ship. then followed by "oh but what if they actually weren't bussing FOR THE WIFOM"

do you have any Actual Reasons to think there's scum in me/moment?

Actually, I think I'm the opposite of confbiased here. It's not that I necessarily scumread either of you, and indeed I do not have much in the way of "actual" reasons, though that's partially because I haven't gone ISO digging, which I would do on a guilTea result to make sure we execute the right one.

The reason I want to reinvestigate you two (and investigate NK for the first time) so much is because you're all slots that could plausibly be Scum, but have been assumed to be Town anyway. We have the means to clear you, we know none of you are TD beyond reasonable doubt, whereas the other slips Titus mentions very well could have been manufactured. Doubtful, but the possibility is there.

[Radical Rat]

I am a mechanics expert. Redoing Datisi and moment is gamethrowing.

Talk me through this one.
I know you're good with mechanics, but this really seems like a stretch to me. The investigation we put on them before has been rendered meaningless by notscience's scumflip. As of now, we know absolutely nothing about their alignment, mechanically speaking, but we do know that neither of them can be the TD unless Iconeum was absurdly confident in there being real scum in the pool as well, which is.... unlikely, to say the least. Pretty sure scum won't be guessing there at any rate.
Mechanically speaking, how is rechecking them any different from checking a new pool, assuming you're correct about their slips and that scum belives you?

[Radical Rat]

Cool

Okay, so unless titus has a compelling reason for there being no scum on the umlaut wagon I think we can all get on board with icon choosing between (maxwell, ali) today, reinvestigating (datisi, moment, maybe nk15) then tomorrow we execute the other in (ali, maxwell) if it’s not GG and then N4 we invest GL if the game isn’t over by that point?

This sounds good to me.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Inspect Wheat

[Radical Rat]

I'd much rather NK15 be the third than either Maxwell or Hel, but of those two I would prefer it to be Hel

[Radical Rat]

Y'know what, you're right, we should focus on the Umlaut wagon.

Hel just confuses me, and my instinct is to investigate the confusion

[Radical Rat]

Alright cool, no objections here, Moment and Datisi get on Copper so we can get things moving please

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Inspect Copper
Forgot I had to do that

[Radical Rat]

I am a mechanics expert. Redoing Datisi and moment is gamethrowing.

Talk me through this one.
I know you're good with mechanics, but this really seems like a stretch to me. The investigation we put on them before has been rendered meaningless by notscience's scumflip. As of now, we know absolutely nothing about their alignment, mechanically speaking, but we do know that neither of them can be the TD unless Iconeum was absurdly confident in there being real scum in the pool as well, which is.... unlikely, to say the least. Pretty sure scum won't be guessing there at any rate.
Mechanically speaking, how is rechecking them any different from checking a new pool, assuming you're correct about their slips and that scum belives you?

Titus, respond to this please.
I don't want to ignore you, but it's hard not to if you ignore me.

[Radical Rat]

The presumption is false. The investigation is far from meaningless. Scum completely bussed notscience and resigned. That's because Datisi and Moment couldn't actually be lynched over notscience. They are already confirmed town because of how scum played day 2. It's a waste of an investigation entirely.

How does any of this confirm Datisi/Moment as Town though?
Yeah, everyone thought notscience was scum, and other scum probably bussed 'em. That doesn't mean that one of Datisi/Moment couldn't have also been scum. Especially not if say..... Remaining scum were to keep pushing the idea that Datisi/Moment are confirmed when they factually are not.

[Radical Rat]

I just want things to happen already

[Radical Rat]

How about a race?

Whichever of Alisae/Moment gets on the inspection ship first gets to live. The other is executed.

[Radical Rat]

Have you thought about solo investing maxwell
I would do that btw

It doesn't really matter who we solo invest if you flip town. Either way, we know which one is scum. If you flip scum, then it double doesn't matter.

VOTE: Inspect Copper

[Radical Rat]

Good game everyone, a pleasure to be a part of this one, even if the early game was very frustrating with all the PA nonsense.

I did figure out what Ico was trying to pull with the not revealing bit, but I still wanted a confirmation because I didn't think the gambit would have worked. And yet, it did, so that's my bad, and I apologize for being so bitter about it.


Titus was definitely scum MVP, but alas, that N1 inspection was #2good.