Mature Mafia: Game Over

[Werebear]

27 pages to read... so give me a few days. I'm actually on page 8 now (the strife and agony!), but won't be able to read more until tomorrow.

[Werebear]

Uh oh. This game isn't that bad, is it???

[Werebear]

Jane! Stop this crazy thing!

That... was a lot of strife and agony.

OK, Vanilla Townie =/= no mod powers.

FOS: all those claiming no mod powers

. For cripe's sake, I'm a tag-fixer-and-double-post-deleter. And I can't even do that, with no editing powers, but it's OK, I can handle it, I'm a big boy. No weight jokes here.

Seriously, DGB, Glork, and Adel have all claimed "no mod powers". On the main post, are two dead who never claimed, but odds are at least the first victim had one. Hmm. Did raj actually claim no powers, or just not say anything about a role until his surprise lynch? I can't remember at this point. But at this point, if there's someone suspicious WITH a role, and someone suspicious WITHOUT a role...

And not seriously, remember, Talitha, Re:DGB's comment - two sets of people know who's town... cops, and scum. And cops can be wrong. *grin*

[Werebear]

Awww. Until we meet again, and I lynch you and have you hung like the scummy dog that you are, Macros. *grin* (for the humour-impaired, that was a joke)

By the way, for the record, my stance is using your role PM to gain town status is just not acceptable. What's done can't be undone, and as we've been told before, we're big people now.

I do get the feeling that one of either DG or Glork is scum, and DG claimed no mod powers. By the way, who was the first one to claim "I have no powers"? Not including the N1 death, of course...

[Werebear]

You know, I kind of wish I'd read the whole thing before I joined. *snicker*

I can get behind DGB. That would put him one vote away from a lynch. If no better arguments come up, I will vote tomorrow. I'm also interested in what nonnys has to say.

[Werebear]

By the way, part of my reasoning for the non-roles?

There's a 50-50 chance roles have nothing to do with alignment. I understand that. But I have a feeling the scum were given the role of "notify people they're dead, when you kill them". The people that claimed roles, if they were scum, they were taking the chance of duplicating roles.

Also, the ratio of "no roles:roles" looks suspiciously like the ratio of "scum:town" to me.

[Werebear]

The story of my replacement:

Phoebus asked me via AIM if I wanted to substitute into a game. He said he'd send the role to me if I said yes. So, I said yes, received my role, and started reading. I read through 8 pages, and was kind of confused as to why Phoebus appeared to be playing, until I realized what a mess this game was.

He has since mocked me via AIM.

Apologies for calling you "he", TDG, I really hate it when I mess up like that, especially when your gender's in profile. Won't happen again.

Re: "no role" - either I'm right and no role means someone doesn't WANT to claim their role, or I'm wrong, and we're no worse off than we were before.

One question. How do we know if this game ends? Will our ever-absent mod step in at that point, or are we big enough boys and girls that we'll know it's ended? I'm not too pleased with the fact that scum could easily write a death scene that says "ScummyScumScum was a vanilla townie", and none of us would be the wiser.

[Werebear]

it appears everyone has.

[Werebear]

??? Coron has just posted twice, elvis? Admittedly not until being prompted...

[Werebear]

well, my first vote choice would still be TDG. So, er, what happens if we lynch someone out of town, with no moderator around?

You know what. I know this is an experiment, no moderator, blah blah, all that crap... but who says we can't elect our OWN moderator, someone not currently playing the game, who can point this game in a somewhat forwards direction? It would rely on players telling the "moderator electee" the truth, but then, aren't we relying on truthfulness anyways?

[Werebear]

I'm kind of disappointed my "hire on a mod" idea didn't get more input. I understand the challenge of self-moderation, but I'm getting kind of tired of no information at all, and the possibility of someone lying in their death post.

If we found someone to mod, and a scum didn't tell them they were scum, then the town wouldn't have to kill them to win, because our "new" mod wouldn't count them as scum. Aww, ya know, heck with it.

Has our deadline setter, indeed set a deadline?

[Werebear]

Mentally, I was counting mathcam's death as a vig, though one can't rule out SK. I really, REALLY wouldn't think the scum would take out someone as controversial as mathcam, yet, as logicticus said, you're very sure it was a scum kill. Me no likey.

[Werebear]

I guess he wasn't mature enough. Seriously, the kit and kaboodle from Phoebus was "Do you want to replace into a game", and when I said yes, he cut and paste text from his message from OPMM (our perpetually missing mod). He gave no explanation, and indeed I thought HE was the mod and I was replacing... um... who is OPMM again? Tiger something. I thought I was replacing tiger, until about 7 pages into reading this.

[Werebear]

Code: Select all

Player List: (posts, role)

Coron:            24 - vote counter
logicticus:       39 - thread locker
Talitha:          46 - deadliner
DGB:              50
Phoebus/Werebear: 51 - post cleaner
Axelrod:          61 - player list maintainer
macros/nonny:     91 - death post writer
elvis_knits:      92 - excecutioner
Adel:             92
Glork:           112

I'm still for going after those without roles. I think my biggest problem is, when someone was lynched, they were supposed to give their ROLE, which was vanilla townsperson. They might not have known their JOB was something to post. Or, they might not have had a job, either because there ARE townspeople without jobs, or because scum don't HAVE jobs.

I know the pledge was called stupid and discarded pages ago, but I for one do pledge to state clearly alignment and role upon death. It'll be exactly what Phoebus claimed, but still.

One other thing I wanted to mention. Just because you were given a job by OPPM, doesn't mean you lose the game if you don't do it. The first thing I thought when I got my job was "Crap, I'm not going to do THAT, that's against the rules." Of course, I don't have mod powers over this thread, so the point is moot anyways. BUT, part of being mature is to think about whether doing your job is helping or hindering. Like, altering death posts, for instance.

[Werebear]

That or we lynch him. But then who would count the votes?

[Werebear]

DGB, you voted yourself. That isn't very mature, is it?

I really don't know what to do. This game is a complete mess. I'm going to vote DGB, mostly because I still don't trust those who don't have roles. Sorry, DGB.

Vote: DGB

[Werebear]

Alive, alive, and no longer thinking the role-free people are scum, thanks to Glork.

I also do not have mod powers, but also have no desire to have them either.

[Werebear]

Oh, and if any of you live within reasonable driving distance to Hershey Park, I cannot recommend it enough. It's a great place to take the kids... or to go after you've ditched the kids. (which isn't an option for me any more, they'd lynch me)

[Werebear]

I think a vigilante is possible... they'd just message someone like the scum. OR we have an every-other-night SK. OR, the mafia decided to kill more people than they should have the one night, and there was no mod to stop them. OR, there as a miscommunication, and the mafia killed more than one person that night by accident. I don't think there's any other scenarios.

Have I mentioned I really don't like a mafia game where you have to completely trust everyone else you're playing with?

[Werebear]

Alive, alive, and no longer thinking the role-free people are scum, thanks to Glork.

Nonny, who's saying mod powers might have some relation still?

Funny, today I could go for a nonny or a DrippingGoofball lynch. I'll bet nonny would be thrilled with a Werebear or a DrippingGoofball lynch.

[Werebear]

I tried to post when I posted on minvitational 9, and I got "This site has exceeded its maximum bandwidth", and then the site proceeded to accuse me over overaccessing.

I'm completely of the idea that mod powers were randomly given now. Especially since I think there are less non-powered people are barely enough to make a scum group.

I also think since there's no cop, that there would be two scum, no more, no less. One scum is no fun, a random lynch day 1 would end the game, and 3 scum would be nigh-unto-unbeatable with no cops. The vigilante idea is also a good one, since it would explain the second kill (I'm still trying to decide if Occam's Razor would pick that, or an error on someone's part as the most reasonable conclusion)

Even though I do believe in "switch your vote at the last minute rather than nolynch", of the two choices nonny and logiciticus, I'd choose logiciticus.

[Werebear]

Werebear is having connection difficulty. For some reason, Friday, it wouldn't accept my password, so I reset it twice, and still it wouldn't work. And I hop on here from home, going to try again, and it autoconnects. Work is where I mostly log on, any advice?

I don't understand what the flap is about players with no mod powers. Yesterday, the only theory I had to go on, was that possibly players with no mod powers were scum. It was a little shaky, but theoretically possible. Then, at the lynch, Glork posted VERY CLEARLY a screenshot of his role PM. It left no doubt whatsoever that there were townies with no mod powers. So thanks to Glork, I am no longer disillusioned that no mod powers could equal scum, and fail to comprehend how anyone can follow that reasoning at this point. Mind you, it doesn't CLEAR the players without mod powers....

So, I can agree with Talitha on Axelrod... after yesterday, taking the tactic of lynching non-roles shouldn't be on anyone's list. Gut instinct is better than following a pattern that has been disproven. I'm not sure what to make of nonny, she seems to have posted only a few more times than I have. If Tally is scum, she's going to win by sheer post volume, but she's still not ringing bells for me as scum. I'm not too fond of Adel's "buss your partners" post, since right now there's enough confusion that both scum could take different tacks, and not throw suspicion on each other. DG seems to be reduced to inflammatory pot-shots, armlx, I don't even know anything about him, and logiticus seems to want to lynch anyone that's not him.
As to me, there is no real case to lynch me, (well, no more than anyone else), but unfortunately that's mostly because I've been extremely sparse in my posting.

There, two pages without a post, and now you get it all. Anyone who has any ideas on the password thing, private message me.

[Werebear]

oh yeah! I'd bet on there being 2 scum. One is too few, a lucky town could get rid of them day 1, and three... three scum in a 14-player no-cops game is weighted VERY MUCH towards the scum. I mean, here we are, day 3, and we're down to 8 people. 3/8 being scum is an almost insurmountable voting block.

I like Occam's razor. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's right quite often. (for those who don't know it, it states "The simplest/most logical answer is most often the correct one")

I think night 2, there's only two possible cases.

Case one, two scum accidentally(?) messaged a different player saying "you're dead", and since there's no mod, it went through. Considering we're running this ourselves, mistakes could easily be made.

Case two, vigilante. The setup for killing at night exists, there's nothing to say the mod couldn't make a town killer who could message the same way. HOWEVER, when balancing a game, I don't really count a vigilante as helping the town greatly. Somewhat, but not greatly. The only time they're truly valuable is if there's a lot of information out there, for instance, a sane cop coming out and clearing half the players. Anything other than that, it's just one person acting on their feelings, which often as not doesn't pan out. Like this game's example, if indeed there is one. If that was indeed a vigilante, they made an error that cost the town.

And yes, today is possibly lynch or lose, if the mod saw fit to include 3 scum and no vigi.

[Werebear]

as my father-in-law would say, great lovin' mother of God, nonny. That has to be one of the longest summaries I've ever seen, interspersed with your own bias-filled interpretations of what's going on. My eyes started crossing about the third post. As long as you're cutting snippets, how about we cut one from you?

Everyone starts listing off thier suspects. Some are valid some are arbitrary, not going to list them all.

Logic posts the list of who is willing to lynch whom. (#866) Votes start switching based on that.

I get frustrated(still am) over none active scum hunting. It's more pointing fingers and wagon jumping that happens.
Quote:
This in my opinion has been the worst demonstration of scum hunting I've ever seen. It is an aweful way to go about playing a game.
still think that is true.

Armlx is after me for de-railing the lynch. With 10 active players and his vote not on the majority area either this is hypocritical at best.

This is factual reporting? What, do you work for Fox News?

In other news, I can't log on from work, and I've had a post eaten by this messageboard.

I do agree on one thing - if the vig isn't a one-shot, tonight's a good night to pick someone to kill if we don't nab a mafia with the lynch. Even if you are a one-shot, I'm pretty sure the mod won't yell at you if you maturely decide that you have TWO shots instead of one. Yes, I know this is going to get me yelled at, but hopefully all the TOWN are mature enough to realize that if there are 3 mafia alive tomorrow, the game is over.

[Werebear]

Nonny. Defeatist, or facts?

1) We don't know how many scum there are. Best guess is 2 or 3. Either is a possibility.
2) If there are 3, and we lynch a town, the scum win tomorrow. Fact. They kill one more townie, and then either they jump on a town's vote for a town member, or all 3 vote the same person and wait for a deadline.
3) If we lynch a town, and there is a vigilante, their shot of a scum could change that town loss into another chance at winning.
4) This is called MATURE mafia. I was given a job as part of this. I decided even before I realized I didn't have mod powers, that I would not do my job. Incorrect tags are barely noticable, edited posts are. If Macros had not "done his job" on a perfectly good death post, day 1 would have been saved a lot of headaches. Part of being mature is knowing when you should do your job, and when you're just doing it because you were told to. This leads to why my suggestion:

The suggestion that a one-shot vigi take two shots falls under the category of "trying to figure out how to assure a town win". I probably shouldn't have made it, and expected to be shouted down. But how that falls under the category of "OMG WEREBEAR'S SCUM", I completely fail to see.

Tell you what, nonny. You tell me how the town can win under these circumstances, and I'll declare you the winner of our debate.

1) there's 3 scum
2) the town has just lynched a town, leaving 7 town alive
3) there's a vigilante, they were told they only had one shot, and they used it.

[Werebear]

I hereby retract suggestion. I'm not apologizing for attempting to figure out how to cover the town's ass if a townie is lynched. As a matter of fact, I really want to know how doing that is suspicious.

Right now, my biggest concern is the missing players. Much as I enjoy talking to you three, armlx, Talitha, and nonny, I wouldn't mind hearing from others as well.

[Werebear]

Am driving to Cape May today. Should have internet access. Sorry didn't post yesterdy

[Werebear]

Success! Internet! Hooray!

Wow. First Adel professes faith in DGB not being scum (last page, before my truncated vacation post), and then TDG busts out with full support of Adel. Sounds like a match made in heaven. I wonder if they're picking out curtains. When I have time, I'm going to go back and take a gander at their interactions.

[Werebear]

Vote: TDG

. Your lack of participation sucks, as do your posts when you actually DO participate. And that's coming from someone who hasn't participated as much as he should have. You reek of scum. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

[Werebear]

Are you TRYING to get lynched, Goofball? You're really not making much sense. Apologies for the abbreviation, I won't do that again.

Vote: DrippingGoofball

[Werebear]

armlx hasn't said *anything* about me, save August 12, when he suggested I might be scum. I think I have my two favorite candidates. DrippingGoofball, and armlx. I expect one of them's scum, and the other is just a townie playing horribly. I mean, come on, what the hell is this? This is DrippingGoofball's entire case against me.

Let's get out of the doldrums.

vote: Werebear

Don't! Don't look at our interactions... it's no good. No good can come of this.

unvote, vote: Werebear

Right now, I'm trying to decide which one is which, right now it looks more like DrippingGoofball is a sucky townie, and armlx is scum trying to bolster the townie's case.

I did ask a question that nobody answered, though. If I were scum, why on earth would I try to rationalize a way for the town to win in a worst-case scenario??

[Werebear]

How many scum there are isn't pointless, if there are 3 and townie is lynched, right? And the voting against me as far as I can tell is completely baseless, they're not even pretending to have a reason. Which is what leads me to believe at least one of them, if not both, is scum. Not that this town intends to do anything about it, apparently.

[Werebear]

For the sake of argument, armlx, please refresh my memory as to why Phoebus/myself is scummy.

[Werebear]

Yeah, Phoebus was fatalistic. He hated this game, and didn't feel like playing any more. It was immediately after he sought a replacement.

Tell me, who hates this game more, townies or mafia? As town, let me tell you, more than a few times I wish I had never agreed to substitute in. A modless game with no cops or docs? If I were mafia, I think I'd be having a riot with how stupid the town is. I really loved the first "town-mafia only" game, where I was mafia. Something about a pond, the mafia were stones. It's not nearly as much fun on the other side.

I suppose that's one reason why I don't suspect Macros as much. I couldn't imagine a mafia - someone who pretty much holds control over everything - wanting out of this game.


Anyways, back to my accuser. So, the reason I'm scummy is because the person I replaced wanted out of this cursed dumb frustrating game, and because I was trying to see how the town could wring a victory out of the worst-case scenario, to the point where I suggested something that violates the rules that were never set down by the mod anyways.

Guilty as charged, on both counts. Now, does that make me scum, or town? You decide. If I didn't hate weasels who give up, I'd give up, let the scum lynch me, and be done with this.

[Werebear]

Heh, what if the scum group were axel and Logictus, and they're waiting for someone to get to 3 so they can pounce?

I really don't have any new thoughts, not much as been posted (again), but I'm checking in so you know I'm not MIA

[Werebear]

Yes, yes, armlx, your arguments against me were QUITE compelling. I almost voted myself based on the sheer logic of it all.

Would someone be so good as to post a vote count?

[Werebear]

Sorry, I forget nothing happens on here but snarky comments and off-topic discussions.

Way to keep up the good work, guys.

So, how about the Giants this year?

*grin*

[Werebear]

While i did find his attempt to ask the "vig" to cheat very scummy

This... this really cracks me up. Ethical? Probably not. In the spirit of the game? Also, probably not. Scummy? All you have to do is tell me how suggesting the vigi kill would benefit the scum, and I will understand. I would think scum would be saying "Oh no, the vigilante should NOT kill".

I probably wouldn't vote nonny. I'd stick to one of the two people who voted me out of the blue for absolutely no reason whatsoever and are trying to push the town into lynching a townie.

[Werebear]

I can't help it, I'm getting frustrated with this game. More frustrated, I should say. You know, I'm not a big fan of sitting on my ass and hoping a cop comes forth, but "Straight mafia vs town no special roles" I don't like. The disadvantage to the town is almost always insurmountable. Did I mention that "The Old Pond" mafia, we won without any of our mafia dead? Yeah. Not really stacked in favor of the town. At all. And the biggest reason I hate it is, someone randomly votes for someone on the thinnest of pretenses, and the mafia gleefully hop on the bandwagon, drive the townie insane, then pretend to scratch their heads and blame the townie for sucky gameplay.

So, go ahead. Lynch the townie, and then you can see if there's a tomorrow. Hey! Another appeal to emotion! I'm getting good at this.

[Werebear]

I'm not that fond of a nonny vote, but then again, nothing about this game is making much sense to me. I notice TheDrippingGoofball happily piled on.

It doesn't really matter if I vote or not, my fan club is going for me tomorrow whether nonny is town or mafia.

[Werebear]

I'm dead. I was town. I was also the post cleaner. Just like I said.

[Werebear]

Just for the hell of it, here's what I suppose to be the list of people alive:

1) DrippingGoofball
2) Coron/Armlx
3) Talitha
6) logicticus
12) Adel

It is day. 5 alive, 3 to lynch. Unless there's 3 mafia, in which case they may reveal and revel.

[Werebear]

Just tell us who they were, please.

And, no offense, but there is no such thing as balance when there's just vanilla townies and scum. The town was completely blind the whole game. Even if there were only TWO scum, they still would have come out of this without any of theirs being lynched. Three is ridiculous, it's a number I'd expect with investigative roles.

And.... just because you have the ability to do something, and are told it's your job, doesn't mean you HAVE TO DO IT.

DrippingGoofball, I don't understand your statement. I was town. You (supposedly) are town. Why was "lynch werebear" a goal for you? Part of the reason Axelrod, our local vigilante, decided to kill me was because of you. Thus allowing the scum to win.