Guns & Roses IV [Game Over]

[lilith2013]

Hello friends! This is my first solo game back on this site since 2016. Please be gentle

Pedit: OH I SEE HOW IT IS!

VOTE: votato

[lilith2013]

Bad FG let’s lynch him

[lilith2013]

PAGETOPpp

[lilith2013]

VOTE: something smart

No RVS vote?

[lilith2013]

Why?

[lilith2013]

Then consider my vote non-RVS.

[lilith2013]

Ooh spicy. Care to share reasons, farside?

[lilith2013]

first

VOTE: votato

yeah same, me too.
VOTE: votato

FoS on lilith cuz peer pressure is bad.

THIS
VOTE: lilith
VOTE: lilith
VOTE: lilith
VOTE: lilith

I did say school was important

Has a lynch ever actually been achieved during RVS?

Yes...just look at any of Radja's games lol. We used to call it the Radja day 1 curse, someone would always be lynched within 5 pages.

VOTE: S_S
serious vote
sadly I think you may have rolled scum my friend

Yes I agree.

[lilith2013]

Also jeez remember when those pokemon games all had d1 quickhammers

[lilith2013]

farside, it was a joke

[lilith2013]

Because he has a gun, clearly

[lilith2013]

fair enough. I've taken a peek at a few recent games to give me some idea of what to expect. from what I've gleaned its basically several hundred pages of shitposting followed by random voting and whoever is the best at making up a compelling story controls the vote. you just hope that the storytellers are on your team.

[lilith2013]

you would know since you're scum, right?

[lilith2013]

Lilith, I have a bad feeling that you don't know me as well as you think you do.

nope

lynch this please

[lilith2013]

Lilith, I have a bad feeling that you don't know me as well as you think you do.

nope

lynch this please

How well do you know Something_Smart? Did you see a gun sneaking out of his pocket?

Yes and yes.

I have a mild townlean on Something_Smart. Lilith, why do you want to lynch there?

Lilith Gut Read^TM, a new system for reading people. Patent coming soon.

[lilith2013]

Why does no-one have any interest in whether or not votato is town faking lack of knowledge of scum having a pt or scum faking it?

What am I, chopped liver?

Yes

The downside of a gut read is that it's impossible to engage.

I’ll get back to you once my read is further substantiated on something you can defend then.

[lilith2013]

It's also very difficult to convince others of, but I guess that's working in my favor at the moment.

Yeah I guess so /shrug

[lilith2013]

I’ll get back to you once my read is further substantiated on something you can defend then.

This almost sounds like you plan on scumreading whatever I say?

Hmm that’s not really what I meant, words are hard

“Further substantiated” = “read is based on something other than gut”

Honestly that doesn’t sound like what I wanted to say either

[lilith2013]

Man I feel like I'm back in 2016. And not the good kind of feeling like I'm back in 2016

Ouch?

[lilith2013]

Also, not persuaded that votato isn’t an alt who doesn’t want to admit to being an alt.

you might want to look into the other games im currently playing. cant provide details cuz im not sure how the rule about discussing ongoing games works. but i think i can say that im playing other games.

remember how the rules mentioned challenges?

@Don Corleone votato /inned as a newbie into the newbie queue so that implies this is not an alt

[lilith2013]

the fact that firebringer hasnt claimed scum yet gives me a hard town read on him....

also, are we to believe that scum dont have a PT in this game? it mentions a PT in the rules during the night phase, but thats the only place i found it mentioned. the rules have already been noted as flawed tho. also, I'm getting dangerously close to not getting page 1 lynched. step it up!

It looks kinda fake honestly. He acknowledges the rules mention scum have a PT, but is still unsure and is innocently asking everyone.

Where were the rules noted as flawed?

FG forgot to remove some of the dance game rules

[lilith2013]

Ouch?

Sorry, but it's true Your new playstyle is, uh, somewhat more aggressive than you used to be.

I did warn you...

[lilith2013]

Don't talk about ongoing games votato.

Those slips are faker than pro wrestling wtf.

he just mentioned there were ongoing games.... afaik that’s not breaking any rules

[lilith2013]

What wagon is chkflip on?

[lilith2013]

Oh i see

[lilith2013]

I feel like that was also shitposting but his reactions to farside do seem overdone.

[lilith2013]

Don't talk about ongoing games votato.

Those slips are faker than pro wrestling wtf.

he just mentioned there were ongoing games.... afaik that’s not breaking any rules

He kinda indirectly implied some stuff though.

What's the history between you and Something_Smart?

SS is probably the person I played in the most games with when I was on this site before.

[lilith2013]

Really love the flavor and detail in the role PMs.

My role PM is town and contains no flavour or detail. Yours does. Ipso facto, you are scum VOTE: chkflip

EZ game, folks.

[lilith2013]

I’m on board with a chkflip wagon. farside is right, I’m tunneling and that’s my b. I’ll revisit SS later.

VOTE: chkflip

[lilith2013]

I feel like you’re deliberately reading way too much into ABR’s naked vote on votato. What makes you think it was any more serious than the other people in the thread who were voting votato?

[lilith2013]

I’ve just gone back and read that page about 5 times and I really don’t see anything indicating it was a “legitimate” vote.

[lilith2013]

.................


I read 41 in the same way I read your 49. Dry, sarcastic humor. Dude.

[lilith2013]

Why don’t we just ask ABR what he meant

[lilith2013]

.................


I read 41 in the same way I read your 49. Dry, sarcastic humor. Dude.

The detail and flavor in role pms are really good tho

Exactly, in the same way that votato is obvscum for “townslipping”

[lilith2013]

Well then! My point is moot

[lilith2013]

Tbh I don’t trust ABR reads whatsoever so that basically means votato is conftown for me

[lilith2013]

You got a problem with that?

[lilith2013]

R u a gangster now?

No

Tbh I don’t trust ABR reads whatsoever so that basically means votato is conftown for me

._.

What is this face for?

[lilith2013]

Tbh I don’t trust ABR reads whatsoever so that basically means votato is conftown for me

This was originally sarcastic but whatever I plan to ignore all ABR reads

[lilith2013]

Hard and immediate backtrack noted.

Revising an opinion when you get new information, like, oh, actual confirmation from ABR that it was a legitimate vote, is called backtracking now?

[lilith2013]

Oh man I better up my post count and talk about every little thing the moment it comes up or I'm scum.

Hahahaha

My vote does sell ABR for bussing and I gotta say farside I'm so proud of you for reading three words and interpreting them

so well

. I'm teary.

Of all the votes, Rammy's was the first that was legitimate. Why? What happened by page two (I think?) that made Rambalam to go "nah they scum"? If x, then y. And I'm absolutely going to help him bus his partner and go for him D2. I believe they're both scum as of that post and nothing has happened to change my mind there. It's pretty simple stuff but apparently it doesn't make sense to you so I have to hold your fucking hand. Cool.

51 reads like an extension of an RVS vote. That's so far from what I'd consider pressure that I forgot it even existed.

I am immune to your sarcasm. It doesn't really win me over.
Can I introduce to a book called how to make friend and influence others?

I think the whole idea that people are pushing for votato looks opportunistic and an excuse.
Is it early to make calls? Yup.
Do I care? Nope
Whatever moves the game out of RVS makes me a happy person.

Tbh I don’t trust ABR reads whatsoever so that basically means votato is conftown for me

MEEEOOOOWWWWW
That said I would go for an ABR vote too.

I’m not scumreading ABR atm. I’m just saying I put 0 stock in his reads.

[lilith2013]

Hard and immediate backtrack noted.

Still reading as trying too hard.

Idk if u read chkflip posts in other games this is kind of just his personality ur seeing.

Not really alignment indicative

Man, this is him all the time?

[lilith2013]

Hard and immediate backtrack noted.

Still reading as trying too hard.

Idk if u read chkflip posts in other games this is kind of just his personality ur seeing.

Not really alignment indicative

Man, this is him all the time?

It’s a personality that grows on u.

No thanks. I’m way less excited about this game now.

[lilith2013]

What is this face for?

It's an unamused glare.

From the games that I remember, ABR is an absolutely dominant force and just yells at people until he gets his way. I think it’s better for at least one person to not let themselves get pressured into joining ABR’s pushes. Do you disagree?

[lilith2013]

It is a legitmate vote for scum.

Well then! My point is moot

Why does that make your point moot? I thought your point was valid and the importance of it stems from what Albert's vote

looked

like, and it looked like a joke to me as well.

Why drop the issue so easily?

ABR meant his vote the way chkflip read it, so I assumed I had misinterpreted it as a joke /shrug

[lilith2013]

Oh really?

I am on this winwagon until the end, or until I sheep a better case.

[lilith2013]

If my scumreads happen to align with ABR’s, great. I don’t really think there’s a middle ground between having your own reads and being pressured to sheep his, though.

[lilith2013]

Like are you only going to get half bullied onto the wagon? That’s not a thing.

[lilith2013]

Okay let’s see you bully me

[lilith2013]

No thanks. I’m way less excited about this game now.

Wow If ur not excited for face huggers latching onto u and growing on u. What even excites u?!

Nothing

[lilith2013]

U smell.

Get on the viable wagon.

Ur reads are bad too. Just sheep me

Weak

[lilith2013]

U smell.

Get on the viable wagon.

Ur reads are bad too. Just sheep me

Weak

Ur mom is weak.

I respectfully disagree

[lilith2013]

That sounds like something she would say

[lilith2013]

Cakes is town I think

Pedit: i’m town!

[lilith2013]

Once again, reading way too hard into a shitpost

[lilith2013]

Wow, it’s like you’re not incredibly well-known and not everyone knows exactly how you play just from your name! Who’d have thought

[lilith2013]

Yeah you’ve taken everything that’s happened in this thread incredibly seriously

One post happened to actually be serious

So?

[lilith2013]

Oh damn this is gonna get confusing real quick

[lilith2013]

Why aren’t you already voting chkflip then?

[lilith2013]

forcibly aligned

This sounds......... ominous

[lilith2013]

forcibly aligned

This sounds......... ominous

Be careful!

What if I said was scumreading you?

[lilith2013]

That’s not sheeping my read though

[lilith2013]

I was promised sheeping

[lilith2013]

Albert, why is votato obvscum?

Lilith, why do you townread Cakez?

The way that Cakes described his scumread and tried to explain why he was scumreading SS lines up with the way I was feeling about SS's posts. I don't think Cakes was able to clearly articulate the scumread in a way that makes sense to others, and I myself have not attempted to do so because it would likely garner the same kind of reaction Cakes got. I still believe my SS read is correct, therefore I am leaning Cakes being town since I think how he came to this read is similar to how I came to mine. I would be surprised if a scum!Cakes happened to be on such a similar wavelength to me.

Your vote is looking lonely and unused there, eyestort. Do you fancy joining me on cakez? He essentially sheeped someone else who gut read Something_Smart as scum without giving any reasons for it.

Cakes gave more reason than I ever did, are you scumreading him/why are you scumreading him over me?

[lilith2013]

There are 8

Town

Roses

remaining.

I have something in mind to give us a slight edge. Will talk about it later.

So the plan is simple, we know we have 8 townies with roses, that means there's three with guns.
So one by one we just claim whether we have a gun or not. No need to claim what night it will be used on. That way we basically get 3 ICs and reduce the lynchpool by 3.

I don't think this works as easily as you think it does.... have you read any of the discussion above?

[lilith2013]

All I see is SC saying they gut-scum-read S_S and that it has solidified since. Being that I'm in a similar boat, and genuinely do this on the regular, I'm not understanding how one can be accused of sheeping a gut read. Is your position basically that you think this is an instance of scum going with the flow of what they think is an easy wagon?

This is the first thing you've said this game that has not made me want to scream in frustration

[lilith2013]

No I don't think he was joking...

There are 8

Town

Roses

remaining.

I have something in mind to give us a slight edge. Will talk about it later.

[lilith2013]

Ughhhh if I'm gonna vanity it's not gonna be there.

UNVOTE: votato
VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

votato was a vanity wagon? wtf?

[lilith2013]

I don't think this works as easily as you think it does.... have you read any of the discussion above?

I haven't read the thread yet, no.

I don't see what could go wrong with this.
If scum want to join in and say that they have a gun, then we know there is scum in the 4-6 people that claimed to have a gun.
Town shouldn't lie obviously, there's no need to lie and be trollie.

Yeah in your post above, you just said that massclaiming automatically gives us 3 ICs. It doesn't.

pedit: ??? but they're not claiming their nights so how are you going to make them shoot each other

[lilith2013]

votato was a vanity wagon? wtf?

Perhaps my understanding of vanity voting is incorrect. I view votes off the main wagons, specifically votes that are by themself, are vanity votes. Obviously my vote (which was I wanna say 5th on the wagon) wasn't vanity at the point it happened. But now that it's by itself, unless I'm misusing the buzzword, it is.

so are you still scumreading ABR for the same reasons then? why ABR over votato at this point

[lilith2013]

Yeah in your post above, you just said that massclaiming automatically gives us 3 ICs. It doesn't.

pedit: ??? but they're not claiming their nights so how are you going to make them shoot each other

Well it kinda does tbh

Yeah I'm not asking them to claim their nights, but they will have a pool to shoot in basically. I'm assuming most vig would have chosen either n 1/2 anyway. This way they do not end up shooting town roses,

I'm by no means an expert on setup, but general consensus in the previous 3 games seems to be that claiming is bad.

[lilith2013]

Albert, why is votato obvscum?

Lilith, why do you townread Cakez?

The way that Cakes described his scumread and tried to explain why he was scumreading SS lines up with the way I was feeling about SS's posts. I don't think Cakes was able to clearly articulate the scumread in a way that makes sense to others, and I myself have not attempted to do so because it would likely garner the same kind of reaction Cakes got. I still believe my SS read is correct, therefore I am leaning Cakes being town since I think how he came to this read is similar to how I came to mine. I would be surprised if a scum!Cakes happened to be on such a similar wavelength to me.

Your vote is looking lonely and unused there, eyestort. Do you fancy joining me on cakez? He essentially sheeped someone else who gut read Something_Smart as scum without giving any reasons for it.

Cakes gave more reason than I ever did, are you scumreading him/why are you scumreading him over me?

Interesting. I've played with Something_Smart before, and his agenda-less tone I've found to be NAI, is that where you think your read pertains from?

I dislike the way you've pushed Something_Smart for the same reasons I dislike Cakez. However, his vote and opinion of the vote being serious came after yours' which makes it slightly worse. I am Something_Smart's lawyer and he is paying me a lot of money right now.

It's not something I can properly explain and I've already said in this thread that I'm backing off until I have something substantive that I can provide.

[lilith2013]

Because if my vote is going to be by itself (the two highest wagons that aren't me don't really appeal to me rn, i.e. I don't see the case), it's not going to hang out on a new player you lot are giving a free pass to after they just openly admitted to purposefully trying to townslip. It's not a hill I feel like dying on, sorry.

The initial gut ping from ABR hasn't been swayed by their recent posting. I understand where you're coming from re: my bus theory only being plausible if vot is scum and, therefore, that's where my vote should be; however, to reiterate, if I'm going to solo vote I'm not solo voting there.

I don't see anything in your ISO that indicates you believe ABR is scum based on their play alone. afaik, all of the things you pointed to were based on bussing. so can you explain what is pinging you about ABR if you don't think votato is his scumbuddy? or are you still scumreading votato and so the bus theory is still your main reason for scumreading ABR?

[lilith2013]

I’m on board with a chkflip wagon. farside is right, I’m tunneling and that’s my b. I’ll revisit SS later.

VOTE: chkflip

Lilith, why did Faraide convince you that you were tunneling rather than correct about an early gut scumread?

I actually already dropped my SS push in 116 on the basis that all I had at that time was a read I couldn't explain to anyone, which evidently is not a very convincing case for building a wagon. 163 is the next time I'm in the thread and I explicitly moved on to interacting with a different wagon there. I'm not saying my scumread is wrong because I still have that read, but with farside calling me out I realized that pushing my read without evidence was not going to be productive so I decided to move somewhere else and revisit my SS read later.

[lilith2013]

whoa, it's not Faraide's fault he got dragged into this!

[lilith2013]

oh. Sorry Faraide

[lilith2013]

Albert and chkflip's votes on you were both serious, vottato. Go ISO Albert and tell me what you think of his push on you.

Yeah I was gonna say this

[lilith2013]

Multiple people have already explained what's bad with it.

[lilith2013]

except we dont know how many guns scum have!
what if they all claim rose, and manage to NK all three guns in night 1?

they aren't all picking N1 gun.
ive plyed this setup like twice.

even in that situation they need to kill roses for their win con.

? Don’t normal majority conditions still apply?

[lilith2013]

Is nitpick ad infinitum a scumtell, or is ss always that way?

Apparently it’s something he picked up from 2016 me

[lilith2013]

i don't like that iconeum finally shows up and doesn't contribute anything. I was gonna swap my vote but then chk gives that super weak abr vote, so it gets to stay

Wow this was horrible. A whole post of wishywashy nonsense

VOTE: votato

[lilith2013]

yes join me farside!

[lilith2013]

Do you scumread ABR lilith?

If not, then why is that post wishywashy?

He doesn’t actually take a stance on Iconeum; and he says he’ll keep his vote on chkflip but has not engaged with or tried to push that slot for a while. He’s also incorrect about chkflip’s vote being a “weak ABR vote” and he should know because he was previously in a very long-winded back and forth with chkflip accusing votato of being ABR’s partner, so he should know what chkflip’s reasons for voting ABR are.

[lilith2013]

I think you just failed a townyness-detector test

Mental note to move lilith from bracket 2 into bracket 3, pending answer

I don’t know what this means but that sounds exciting

[lilith2013]

Do you scumread ABR lilith?

If not, then why is that post wishywashy?

Why are you asking me if I scumread ABR?

[lilith2013]

It doesn’t matter either way, votato can be fencesitty regardless of what my ABR read is

[lilith2013]

But that seems like a very tangential question for you to ask

[lilith2013]

@chkflip are you still positing a ABR/votato team?

[lilith2013]

yay! \o/

[lilith2013]

ABR sheep me

[lilith2013]

Lilith, I didn’t feel any scum vibes from Iconeum when I spoke to him.
Although, out of the two players who’ve recently started their activity (vecna and iconeum), vecna seems more towny to me than iconeum.

Uh....... thanks for telling me this but I didn’t ask you anything???

[lilith2013]

@chkflip are you still positing a ABR/votato team?

I won't be joining you.

VOTE: votato

At this point the trash needs to be taken out.

I’m asking whether your reasons for scumreading ABR are still the same as before

[lilith2013]

@Vecna

Do you scumread ABR lilith?

If not, then why is that post wishywashy?

Why are you asking me if I scumread ABR?

It doesn’t matter either way, votato can be fencesitty regardless of what my ABR read is

But that seems like a very tangential question for you to ask

[lilith2013]

Ooh pagetop!

[lilith2013]

thats an odd post to quote alongside your potato vote

^

[lilith2013]

ABR is now a vanity wagon and votato has an actual wagon but you won’t vote votato?

[lilith2013]

I am not lynching ABR today so either vote votato or make a case for someone else

[lilith2013]

ABR is now a vanity wagon and votato has an actual wagon but you won’t vote votato?

[lilith2013]

@chkflip: This is not about trying to “townlead” you. I’m legitimately confused as to why you are not joining a wagon on votato when you spent the majority of 5-10 pages trying to get him lynched, and have basically voteparked ABR who all of 1 other person is also voting. Can you explain this?

[lilith2013]

Cakes please explain your read on Vecna

[lilith2013]

In a shocking turn of events, I am actually wagoning the person ABR called obvscum at the beginning of this game............

ABR was right, our reads have been “forcibly aligned”

[lilith2013]

@chkflip: This is not about trying to “townlead” you. I’m legitimately confused as to why you are not joining a wagon on votato when you spent the majority of 5-10 pages trying to get him lynched, and have basically voteparked ABR who all of 1 other person is also voting. Can you explain this?

I think scum!vottato is more valuable to town alive than scum!Rampage.

Need I elaborate further?

Okay that was all I wanted to hear

[lilith2013]

SirCakez is sounding like he's trying to lure me into his van with candy

Moved from bracket 2 to bracket 3

yeah be my buddy dude!!!!
I liked his catchup for town, it had good scumhunting and made sense. Called out his own lurking. And he caught shit I missed.

Can you point to the parts of his posts that consisted of “shit you missed”?

[lilith2013]

I think so. If he still thinks chkflip is worthy of a vote, why no direct interaction with that slot now? He posted a case and then kind of just dropped it and I think he’s the only one on the wagon. Would expect more pushing if he truly scumreads chkflip. He also basically said “it’s fun tunneling [chkflip].” I see no engagement with anyone else and no other reads expressed. The best he can come up with is a non-stance on Iconeum. chkflip is the only slot he’s directly interacted with all game (as in, had an actual engagement with and made posts directed to chkflip instead of into the general atmosphere) and see my feelings on that above.

What about my stance on him do you disagree with?

[lilith2013]

Wow this was horrible. A whole post of wishywashy nonsense

Maybe it was bad, but is it scummy?

I think so. If he still thinks chkflip is worthy of a vote, why no direct interaction with that slot now? He posted a case and then kind of just dropped it and I think he’s the only one on the wagon. Would expect more pushing if he truly scumreads chkflip. He also basically said “it’s fun tunneling [chkflip].” I see no engagement with anyone else and no other reads expressed. The best he can come up with is a non-stance on Iconeum. chkflip is the only slot he’s directly interacted with all game (as in, had an actual engagement with and made posts directed to chkflip instead of into the general atmosphere) and see my feelings on that above.

What about my stance on him do you disagree with?

Hey SS, why ask me this if you’re not going to respond? Do you have any response?

[lilith2013]

Hi, Lilith. Do you think you've done things indicative of your alignment yet?

I think I’ve made a few posts that show my mindset and people seem to be agreeing with these posts. I don’t really understand this question. Is this following the line of questioning re: not seeing why people townread me?

[lilith2013]

Would expect more pushing if he truly scumreads chkflip.

This is the part I disagree with, there are plenty of people who don't actively push the person they're voting at every available moment.

It could just be lack of time, it could be lack of conviction, it could be laziness, it could be the expectation that his push would be weak and someone else could do it better, it could be that he was concerned with getting a vote down and then was going to focus on other things.

Okay and what about the rest of my post? Because I think this was the least important bit of what I said and you specifically chose this one sentence to respond to.

[lilith2013]

Like... knightmare is scum and scum are using it to defend a buddy?

Yes, that would be the idea. It's tinfoily, of course, but it did cross my mind.

SS I don’t get this. You’re defending Knightmare on what basically amounts to “too scummy to be scum” but under a different guise of “scum wouldn’t do this just because they’re scum.”

[lilith2013]

Yeah I don't trust this at all, this actually makes me feel SS is even more scummy.

It's not accurate. My scumgame is garbage. Baton Pass is the one game where I would say I played really well, and I still got lynched.

Good, so both you and I don't trust DC's claim that you sound townie as scum, finally something we can agree on.

When lilith stops pushing votato, my votato is landing on something somarto.

Oh you want a SS wagon? I’m down to clown

[lilith2013]

Okay and what about the rest of my post? Because I think this was the least important bit of what I said and you specifically chose this one sentence to respond to.

The part I responded to was the only part that said WHY he was scum instead of just WHAT he was doing. Everything else was just a description of a weak post.

Okay then.... WHY do you think he was only engaging with the chkflip slot?

[lilith2013]

Okay then.... WHY do you think he was only engaging with the chkflip slot?

Because he's a newbie and doesn't know what the hell to do?

I think you’re giving too much leeway to “newb” him when he clearly has the ability to analyze wagons and also knows more mafia terminology than I do. Also: Engagement is not dependent on experience. I’m not even talking about pushing, but as a newbie I was completely capable of holding conversations with people in the thread and asking them what their reads were and I’d assume any newbie would at least be able to do that. Votato seems capable enough of throwing out reads once there’s votes on him, why not post it any time before that and try to interact with people to solidify those reads?

[lilith2013]

Its just the impression I get when reading his posts. He calls shit as he sees it, isnt afraid to piss people off, and is generally just flailing about in a way id expect a towny to do that is somewhat newer to this.

Its not a strong super-confident read, and im not gonna use much energy to oppose this wagon if thats what a majority wants, but I wont be voting there,

That's fair. I don't agree with you, I think Chkflip hit the nail more closer to my thoughts.

Here is an oxymoron: viewtopic.php?p=11766721#p11766721
Knight is town for discussing massclaim, but no one else can because they are scum? He didn't point to anyone and many were discussing it because, guess what it was a discussion that Knight brought up.
Vote low hanging fruit: viewtopic.php?p=11768783#p11768783
And finally his town reads: viewtopic.php?p=11768820#p11768820
Like really, eyeslott and Paragon!
Paragon isn't even the top of my town list. He barely post and made a few points and has gone MIA since. And yes as the game goes on my read on him goes down. I see scum make a few good post and disappear after so that is why I'm on the edge with him.
But lets say he thought players discussing the massclaim were scum, why not say who and why? Why not vote for them?
He's obviously played mafia before, because he said as much. So I will not coddle a player that played and knows how to fake town tells.

Farside, can you explain your thought progression from “votato is a newb stop pushing him for a townslip he wouldn’t have known to make as a newb” to this post?

[lilith2013]

Iconuem's been poor so far. Most of his content is talking about whether day 1 scum lynches are good, and reinforcing the fact we shouldn't lynch day 1. Any hot pings so far, Iconeum?

VOTE: Iconeum

*that we shouldn't massclaim day 1

How is this different from the knightmare slot? Knightmare has pretty much only talked about pros of massclaims and eyestott being scummy for arguing with him about massclaiming

[lilith2013]

I never played with the guy and I thought he was newb in my head. Looking back and rereading I realized I missed that he played before and how he postured himself to know how to fake a town slip.

In short. I got tunneled onto other things.

Fair enough

[lilith2013]

Farside, please elaborate.

Lilith, Knightmare was the first to propose a strategy. Iconeum voiced opinion when it had already been established that the consensus was that we shouldn't mass claim, so it's more of any unnecessary contribution which is easy for scum to comment on.

Uh....

1) weren’t you and eyestott already talking about massclaim strategies before Knightmare?
2) Iconeum wasn’t in the thread at that time so of course he didn’t give opinions on it in real time. I don’t think it’s scummy to give opinions on something that’s already happened that you’re catching up on, even if it’s unnecessary. Why do you think it’s scummy?
3) I agree that him having not much else in his ISO is push-worthy but if you go by that then so are several others, so why him specifically?

[lilith2013]

I think you’re giving too much leeway to “newb” him when he clearly has the ability to analyze wagons and also knows more mafia terminology than I do. Also: Engagement is not dependent on experience. I’m not even talking about pushing, but as a newbie I was completely capable of holding conversations with people in the thread and asking them what their reads were and I’d assume any newbie would at least be able to do that. Votato seems capable enough of throwing out reads once there’s votes on him, why not post it any time before that and try to interact with people to solidify those reads?

Engagement may not be dependent on experience, but lack of experience can definitely explain lack of engagement.

Capable and willing are two different things. Just because he can doesn't mean he thinks he should, and I think it's reasonable for someone new to the site to have the mindset that the important things are having a vote on your top scumread and being able to explain your reads, and actually pressing people to read them better is optional.

Have you read farside’s 735? Her points are a lot more coherent than mine on this.

[lilith2013]

It's pretty NAI in my opinion.

Town are generally more likely to admit fault and try to change their behavior, whereas scum are more likely to be defensive and argue that they weren't doing anything wrong imo.

So are you saying votato’s post was genuine based on his tone or based on probability?

[lilith2013]

Wow

[lilith2013]

im starting to think that theres one scum in {lilith, paragon, farside} based on recent interactions.

What does this mean?

the three of them are having an interaction I'm reading as being partially forced. I don't think its just a disagreement between townies. I think one is probably scum. Too much infighting, not enough attempt to collaborate. Especially from farside, again strengthening my growing SR on her. the read on their interaction is gut, I can't really point to anything specific in the text yet.

“Too much infighting and not enough attempt to collaborate from farside” is a pretty contradictory statement to “farside is buddying lilith”

[lilith2013]

Paragon is right Ico is scummy

Cakes please explain what you think is scummy about Icon

[lilith2013]

So are you saying votato’s post was genuine based on his tone or based on probability?

All reads are based on probability, so that one.

SS, I’m going to attempt to put words to my scumread on you now.

This entire game thus far I feel like you’ve approached others with a purely mechanical engagement, which prevents me from reading you as a person. In your back and forths with me you’re bringing up probability, you’re asking me rhetorical questions, you’re questioning my reasoning, but have yet to reveal what YOU are thinking or feeling about the players we’re talking about. It feels like you’re questioning people just to question people and it isn’t backed by your personal perspectives or you trying to follow up on your own reads. It’s like there’s a disconnect between you as a person and the posts you’re making. There were maybe a couple posts where I saw a glimpse of the person, but not nearly enough to change my read.

So that about sums it up.

[lilith2013]

SS, I’m going to attempt to put words to my scumread on you now.

This entire game thus far I feel like you’ve approached others with a purely mechanical engagement, which prevents me from reading you as a person. In your back and forths with me you’re bringing up probability, you’re asking me rhetorical questions, you’re questioning my reasoning, but have yet to reveal what YOU are thinking or feeling about the players we’re talking about. It feels like you’re questioning people just to question people and it isn’t backed by your personal perspectives or you trying to follow up on your own reads. It’s like there’s a disconnect between you as a person and the posts you’re making. There were maybe a couple posts where I saw a glimpse of the person, but not nearly enough to change my read.

So that about sums it up.

That is probably the most eloquently I've ever seen someone complain about my playstyle.

Sure. I will grant the truth of pretty much everything you said. I'm generally not forthcoming about the reasoning for my reads, primarily because it tends to create a much more structured and easy-to-follow conversation if I explain my reads only when someone cares enough to ask me about them, but also because I am lazy.

If you're scumreading me because I haven't been proactively sharing my reads and reasoning, then that's simply a playstyle thing. I did say that I thought you didn't know me as well as you thought you did, and I had a reason for saying so. It was this. I hadn't yet developed this playstyle when you were around before, and lots of people have bad reactions to it the first time they play with me.

If you're scumreading me simply because you don't KNOW where I stand, well, all you have to do is ask.

None of these are right. Words are hard, will try again later

[lilith2013]

So are you saying votato’s post was genuine based on his tone or based on probability?

All reads are based on probability, so that one.

SS, I’m going to attempt to put words to my scumread on you now.

This entire game thus far I feel like you’ve approached others with a purely mechanical engagement, which prevents me from reading you as a person. In your back and forths with me you’re bringing up probability, you’re asking me rhetorical questions, you’re questioning my reasoning, but have yet to reveal what YOU are thinking or feeling about the players we’re talking about. It feels like you’re questioning people just to question people and it isn’t backed by your personal perspectives or you trying to follow up on your own reads. It’s like there’s a disconnect between you as a person and the posts you’re making. There were maybe a couple posts where I saw a glimpse of the person, but not nearly enough to change my read.

So that about sums it up.

could you quote a few posts that you feel are particularly mechanical? I'm reading but will respond properly to questions asked of me later on.

I tried to multi-quote but multi-quoting on mobile is a bitch and my post got erased. Will quote when I’m on a computer

[lilith2013]

@SS: short version is I don’t think your play has changed as much as you think it has.

[lilith2013]

Okay I’ll have a list of 20+ questions prepared for you later

[lilith2013]

Vecna is not vottato's scum buddy if that's what you're implying.

Sorry if that was implied. I don't see Venca doing that. I was thinking more of Paragon in this regards.

I think Venca is just testing out things.

Are you referring to the Iconeum vote? Because I was thinking that too.

[lilith2013]

pagetop

[lilith2013]

Faraide

[lilith2013]

Sorry friends - very busy week at work I’ll try to catch up soon.

[lilith2013]

No one else is voting farside, Vecna is now voting Cakes

[lilith2013]

Sorry work stuff hit me in the face :/ I’ll be back late tonight.

[lilith2013]

Farside/votato TvS?

Why, and who of the two are you calling S?

[lilith2013]

Trying to catch up on the eyestott wagon and I would consolidate there if we’re coming to deadline. I’d like to see eyes’ reaction to the wagon on them before a lynch though

Surprisingly I like firebringer’s take on don corleone so I could also vote there (DC).

[lilith2013]

That’s about it for this morning, see yall later

[lilith2013]

I can't be the only one who has the opinion that Eye/Votato are town right now and that these wagons suck right?

You are more then welcome to help your scum partner out of being lynched. Just let me know which one that is.

LOL

[lilith2013]

Farside is my strongest townread, I feel like she’s been super in sync with my thoughts all game and we’re vibing well (hope that isn’t one-sided lmao)

[lilith2013]

Are you scumreading me?

[lilith2013]

I can't be the only one who has the opinion that Eye/Votato are town right now and that these wagons suck right?

I’m fairly sure the only person (outside of the wagonees themselves) who doesn’t want to be on either wagon is Vecna, who you are interested in voting. How do you figure that you are aligned with Vecna’s views on the wagon but still want to vote (scumreading? Scumleaning? Unclear which) him?

[lilith2013]

Vecna’s views on the wagons*

[lilith2013]

I dislike how farside is treating/talking to my slot like it's already scum instead of trying to ya know. Just talk normally but that can just be a dif in playstyle and annoyance more than anything else.
pedit: It makes me want to wagon Vecna even more!

??? So you are agreeing with Vecna’s views on the wagons but scumreading Vecna? Can you explain?

[lilith2013]

Uh Vecna I actually can’t find anything in your ISO re: eyestott wagon, can you provide your thoughts on that

[lilith2013]

Also happy with VOTE: mariaR

[lilith2013]

No I saw that part and if you were pushing my slot/asking for votes before my replace in I would understand and it'd be fine. But I don't think you were doing that. Do you see how from my pov that looks really weird how you just start pushing me when I come on in?

Actually farside was pushing/engaging paragon slot: 745 751 762 781 803

Paragon’s last post was 782 so it’s really unfair and leaning towards misrep to say that farside wasn’t pushing your slot before you replaced in. There wasn’t anything to push after she last mentioned paragon.

[lilith2013]

we'll see that with votes.


I'm sorry did I miss the part where you explained why you were town reading ABR?

*looks around*
Nope.
It gets better then that.
ABR is giving his vote over to lilth whom you are scum reading. That is just priceless shit that I can't make up because it's in the game.

Do you really think MariaR should expect 1 scum to give their scumbuddy a vote?

That's what you're calling her out for?

Also I am not giving my vote to Lilith I thought I made that clear.

VOTE: farside22

For thinking its inconsistent to think I am town if lillith is scum. This doesn't make any sense.

You promised to sheep me though!

[lilith2013]

You promised to sheep me though!

Didn't you say you were gonna vote SS with me?

Neither of us got any traction on that wagon and I’m happy with a Maria vote

[lilith2013]

.... am I not allowed to have emotions while playing mafia now?

[lilith2013]

Okay, is this better: you're calling me fake for playing emotionally

[lilith2013]

You're saying MariaR is lazyscummy because she thinks Lillith is scum and I am town, and the evidence you presented was that I publicly told Lillith our reads would be aligned which you thought was me giving Lillith my vote.

I'm questing her calling you gun ho for your iso, when the majority of your game play is following lillith's lead. That was why I thought her catch up was a joke and a lie.

Lillith is clearly following my lead, at least until now. She presently seems to be riding the farside/vecna train.

And for the last time woman GUNG HO, stop disrespecting my Texan waifu gun ho.

that is 100% not true, you're voting farside and she's my strongest townread?

[lilith2013]

Okay, is this better: you're calling me fake for playing emotionally

I'm saying part of your emotions are exaggerated/planned

Okay, how can you tell? It seems like you're just reading my posts and ascribing exaggeration/planning to them

[lilith2013]

no, I was scumreading SS from the very beginning

[lilith2013]

You're saying MariaR is lazyscummy because she thinks Lillith is scum and I am town, and the evidence you presented was that I publicly told Lillith our reads would be aligned which you thought was me giving Lillith my vote.

I'm questing her calling you gun ho for your iso, when the majority of your game play is following lillith's lead. That was why I thought her catch up was a joke and a lie.

Lillith is clearly following my lead, at least until now. She presently seems to be riding the farside/vecna train.

And for the last time woman GUNG HO, stop disrespecting my Texan waifu gun ho.

that is 100% not true, you're voting farside and she's my strongest townread?

why is it so important to you that you arent sheeping ABR though?

It's important to me that he doesn't misrep my reads, wouldn't that be important to you

[lilith2013]

Okay, is this better: you're calling me fake for playing emotionally

I'm saying part of your emotions are exaggerated/planned

Okay, how can you tell? It seems like you're just reading my posts and ascribing exaggeration/planning to them

No one can truly tell how the emotions of someone else work. I'm saying I think some of your stuff is fake and I noticed a pattern and a few glaring points. I showed those glaring points and the pattern. I don't think there's much more I can really say on it?

Okay so the pattern is "I'm aggressive with people I'm scumreading and not aggressive with people I'm townreading"

How is that scummy? Like I'm naturally going to be pushing people I'm scumreading and not so much pushing people I already have a townread on

[lilith2013]

Oh hey I just noticed this inconsistency:

Page 5 is just S_S vs lilith.

S_S comes off worse here due to the kinda defensive tone

in posts like 116. I kinda want to tr lilith with how guns blazing she just seems to start the game with.

-------------------

To me,

S_S feels defensively aggressive and that in and of itself is kinda towny

! Mostly because I think scum S_S is kinda a doormat half the time. But, it kinda mellows out later on. For Cakez here I suppose I don’t really fully get it? Were you saying that Cakez had one reason to sr S_S and now that he’s not doing that anymore he shouldn’t be sr? Because that is horrible logic, but if not let me know.

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: S_S vs Lil

Lilith, I have a bad feeling that you don't know me as well as you think you do.

nope

lynch this please

Why does no-one have any interest in whether or not votato is town faking lack of knowledge of scum having a pt or scum faking it?

What am I, chopped liver?

Yes

The downside of a gut read is that it's impossible to engage.

I’ll get back to you once my read is further substantiated on something you can defend then.

I’m on board with a chkflip wagon. farside is right, I’m tunneling and that’s my b. I’ll revisit SS later.

VOTE: chkflip

As you can see it starts off really aggressive and then a sudden stop randomly. 'Huh I'm tunneling' See that'd be cool if that thought was genuine but Farsade made that post about 30 posts before that and lilith was still posting after

Don't talk about ongoing games votato.

Those slips are faker than pro wrestling wtf.

More votes on this will get you into my goodwill.
Also lilith, less tunneling. Ss is at least responding and trying to engage.
Unlike chk who is poking with unless garbage.

See? So did that thought randomly hit her brain or something? She was posting in live time so you can see how fake that thought process and how timed it is. The aggro on S_S is for the sake of getting a townread exaggerated. Voting Chk who was suddenly getting a wagon going. It's called opportunistic vote hopping.

In a post that you yourself quoted below, I expressed that I already dropped my SS push after 116 because I didn't have anything to engage with him on. It wasn't an exaggerated read and I've already attempted to explain why I read him a certain way - I'd say he's probably the person on MS that I am most confident in reading.

As for "ooooh caught me on the timing," the next time I was in the thread was when I said that farside was right and I was tunneling... sorry it took me a few minutes to get around to saying that.... you're acting like me rereading the thread and realizing that someone is right after the fact is scummy.

Spoiler: Examples of 'anger'

Tbh I don’t trust ABR reads whatsoever so that basically means votato is conftown for me

This was originally sarcastic but whatever I plan to ignore all ABR reads

Hard and immediate backtrack noted.

Revising an opinion when you get new information, like, oh, actual confirmation from ABR that it was a legitimate vote, is called backtracking now?

Yeah you’ve taken everything that’s happened in this thread incredibly seriously

One post happened to actually be serious

So?

Sure she's calling some of her posts 'not serious' when it gets talked about but uh, excuses anyone?

I would call these "sarcastic" and not "overdone anger"

Spoiler: not pressued

I’m on board with a chkflip wagon. farside is right, I’m tunneling and that’s my b. I’ll revisit SS later.

VOTE: chkflip

Lilith, why did Faraide convince you that you were tunneling rather than correct about an early gut scumread?

I actually already dropped my SS push in 116 on the basis that all I had at that time was a read I couldn't explain to anyone, which evidently is not a very convincing case for building a wagon. 163 is the next time I'm in the thread and I explicitly moved on to interacting with a different wagon there. I'm not saying my scumread is wrong because I still have that read, but with farside calling me out I realized that pushing my read without evidence was not going to be productive so I decided to move somewhere else and revisit my SS read later.

whoa, it's not Faraide's fault he got dragged into this!

oh. Sorry Faraide

When people aren't disagreeing or pressing her she's back to go lucky and casual. With farside her 'top townread' she's extremely nod nod happy all the time. I just don't think this is how someone would act in a game of mafia

I can keep going but you get my point. You can be all happy with your townreads. You can be all 'grr' with your scumreads. But when you overdo your emotions to try and get an advantage on the gamestate? That's where we got an issue.

I mean... my natural emotional response is to be upset when people are scumreading me or when I think someone is calling me out unreasonably.

What advantage do you think I'm trying to gain here?

[lilith2013]

what a non-response response

[lilith2013]

it seems like farside made some initial reads, and is now going full confirmation bias. farside, do you think you could go through some of maria's posts and try to explain them yourself from the lens of town!maria? could you do the same for me? I'm not sure I like all of Maria's posts that much either, but you seem to be giving her the same treatment you're giving me, which is: "you're scum. I've decided you're scum, and therefore you are. And since you're scum im going to read your posts as coming only from scum, and treat you like you're a bad person." You seem to be getting really ticked off, and maybe you've just tunneled really hard, but it seems more likely that you're putting on an angry facade for some AtE action. How dare we be scum?

I dislike how farside is treating/talking to my slot like it's already scum instead of trying to ya know. Just talk normally but that can just be a dif in playstyle and annoyance more than anything else.
pedit: It makes me want to wagon Vecna even more!

I'm sorry you rolled scum. If you were town I would be really nice and try to see your pov but so far everything you posted look made up and vague.
Thank you for replacing. Much love to you for doing that.

it seems like you're really trying hard here to be open minded and reasoned, and not at all tunneling.

Why do you take issue with this but don't take issue when maria basically does the same thing to me?

[lilith2013]

ftr I disagree that farside is being confbiased but let's say she is for the sake of my question

[lilith2013]

Where do you see someone else being unfair to Maria?

[lilith2013]

Where do you see someone else being unfair to Maria?

you're ganging up on her a bit. your posts by themselves are mostly fair, but i think maria is right to some extent about you being aggressive and emotional. these made me roll my eyes for example:

.... am I not allowed to have emotions while playing mafia now?

Okay, is this better: you're calling me fake for playing emotionally

mostly i think all three of you should step away for a few hours and do some introspection.

I’ll step away, but... Sorry to break it to you, a few hours away from the thread won’t change my personality

[lilith2013]

Eh I don’t think a scumbuddy would defend this openly and this hard

[lilith2013]

Eh I don’t think a scumbuddy would defend this openly and this hard

It’s about the momentum. If ABR ever flips scum then it’s worth remembering that firebringer pushed a theory that meant he shouldn’t be wagoned right at the moment when he might have been. Again, that doesn’t make firebringer scum in a world of ABR!scum but it does mean he should be double checked whereas rn I think he’s just town

Okay, you make a good point

[lilith2013]

VOTE: ABR

[lilith2013]

I think Maria subbed in thinking ABR would likely be the obv-town he usually is, called out a unsubstantiated TR there, and then got slapped on the fingers for it

The first part of your post is kind of implying that her ABR tr is fake.. but you saying "slapped on the fingers for it" makes it sound like you think she was wrongly vilified for doing that

[lilith2013]

Hey all, so sorry for my inactivity. My dad has something called ‘cerebral thinning’ in his frontal lobe or something which may be why he’s been showing symptoms of aphasia semi-recently. I’ve been inactive on the site as a whole for the past few days, so please don’t view this as strategic lurking.
I’ll be spending about an hour on this game when I wake up tomorrow. Right now I’m aware of 4 votes on me, and I appreciate that this was probably the worst time for this inactivity to happen, but ultimately family comes first.

Hey eyestott, hope your dad is okay

[lilith2013]

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

Wtf? You just said you thought ABR vs DC was a TvT, and now you want ABR to shoot DC?

[lilith2013]

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

Wtf? You just said you thought ABR vs DC was a TvT, and now you want ABR to shoot DC?

Vecna I want a response

[lilith2013]

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

Wtf? You just said you thought ABR vs DC was a TvT, and now you want ABR to shoot DC?

Vecna I want a response

I can and will repeatedly quote myself until you answer

[lilith2013]

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

Wtf? You just said you thought ABR vs DC was a TvT, and now you want ABR to shoot DC?

Vecna I want a response

I can and will repeatedly quote myself until you answer

You're still ignoring me Vecna

[lilith2013]

Lilith saying straight out of the gate she is throwing my reads to the garbage.

Fine I don't care, thats why I chose GUN.

You seem to care a lot

[lilith2013]

I still prefer ABR wagon but vecna is my 2nd choice

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: Quote wall

Townreads:
Vecna
chkflip
eyestott
Knightmare491 (debatable, but unless scum really has a strong plan, I dont think the way he has pushed it would be a scum hill to die on)

Maybe 1 scum:
SirCakez
lilith2013
farside22
DonCorleone
votato


Suspected pool of 2 additional scum
Paragon
Firebringer
Iconeum
Something_Smart
Paragon

Scum
Albert B. Rampage

ABR, who are we gonna speedwagon?

i think cakez is town. I am weaker on DC but his convo with me felt town in his thought processes. His push on you doesn't seem genuine in my mind because he seems to be ignoring what ur doing. Like not trying to figure u out. But ur kind of doing this bluster thing so maybe he thinks its better for him to ignore it for most part?

Look up past DC scum games. Same BS.

Sircakez played an excellent game but there's no way he follows DC like that as town, he knows who I am and what I'm capable of and Firebringer, when Sircakez read what you said about me, if that didn't ring true in every membrane of his body that's because he's scum.

I expected Cakez to have better meta on me than you FB. He is scum, trust me. DC the ringleader of them all.

We can wagon cakez if you want. Id prefer him over DC I think

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

Wtf? You just said you thought ABR vs DC was a TvT, and now you want ABR to shoot DC?

Vecna I want a response

I can and will repeatedly quote myself until you answer

I mean, wasting a gunshot or having it bounce off of a rose is infinitely better than wasting a lynch on town and having half the playerlist want to lynch the other tomorrow.

I dont think this situation is going to diffuse anymore without a death.

Vecna went from scumreading ABR to being real friendly with him with no explanation for the flip in read

[lilith2013]

I joined this game with the majority of players against me.

Lilith saying straight out of the gate she is throwing my reads to the garbage.

Fine I don't care, thats why I chose GUN.

Now the one thing I didn't count on was for FUCKING FIREBRINGER who I think of as a teenager, to understand me better than any one of you who have known me for years.

the fuck, you chose your gun before the thread opened. What type of twisting of causality is this

I know people's biases against me before I join, yes.

I haven't played in 4 years so how could you possibly predict how I was going to behave

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: Quote wall

Townreads:
Vecna
chkflip
eyestott
Knightmare491 (debatable, but unless scum really has a strong plan, I dont think the way he has pushed it would be a scum hill to die on)

Maybe 1 scum:
SirCakez
lilith2013
farside22
DonCorleone
votato


Suspected pool of 2 additional scum
Paragon
Firebringer
Iconeum
Something_Smart
Paragon

Scum
Albert B. Rampage

ABR, who are we gonna speedwagon?

i think cakez is town. I am weaker on DC but his convo with me felt town in his thought processes. His push on you doesn't seem genuine in my mind because he seems to be ignoring what ur doing. Like not trying to figure u out. But ur kind of doing this bluster thing so maybe he thinks its better for him to ignore it for most part?

Look up past DC scum games. Same BS.

Sircakez played an excellent game but there's no way he follows DC like that as town, he knows who I am and what I'm capable of and Firebringer, when Sircakez read what you said about me, if that didn't ring true in every membrane of his body that's because he's scum.

I expected Cakez to have better meta on me than you FB. He is scum, trust me. DC the ringleader of them all.

We can wagon cakez if you want. Id prefer him over DC I think

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

Wtf? You just said you thought ABR vs DC was a TvT, and now you want ABR to shoot DC?

Vecna I want a response

I can and will repeatedly quote myself until you answer

I mean, wasting a gunshot or having it bounce off of a rose is infinitely better than wasting a lynch on town and having half the playerlist want to lynch the other tomorrow.

I dont think this situation is going to diffuse anymore without a death.

Vecna went from scumreading ABR to being real friendly with him with no explanation for the flip in read

You realize he is finally playing the way im used to him playing as town, right?

Yeah and you just said in your last post that he "doesn't have you convinced he's not scum"

so why do you seem to be townreading him so strongly from your recent interactions? sheeping his reads, telling him he can shoot DC even though you think it's a TvT? How does that make any sense?

[lilith2013]

I still prefer ABR wagon but vecna is my 2nd choice

Like, pretending something isnt suddenly spectacularly different is being extremely disingenuous.

But hey, if you wanna scumread me for figuring this out and prodding the situation, do you girl.

also your 1099 is way before the "spectacularly different play"

[lilith2013]

UNVOTE: farside. Either ABR is town, and then probably right, or scum, in which case this is a really bad play. Why would scum be this aggressive pushing 1 townie? Worst case ABR is town and wrong, but then we still probably find out tonight with NKs. this is wayyyy better than any of the other wagons, and even if DC flips town, this is real progression. I don't know any of you, but im leaning towards lilith being naive and town, with farside giving intentionally bad reads. Farside is in queue for at least one other game, so doesn't currently feel overwhelmed. If play is subpar for her, its probably on purpose. Vecna flip-flop is a bit odd, and vecna does some off somewhat as tyring to sheep-without-sheeping this game. He has been reading most people the same way town~majority does, iirc. VOTE: doncorleone

How do you sound like you're scumreading vecna and then come out with a vote on DC

[lilith2013]

This is a horrible counterwagon to ABR

[lilith2013]

UNVOTE: farside. Either ABR is town, and then probably right, or scum, in which case this is a really bad play. Why would scum be this aggressive pushing 1 townie? Worst case ABR is town and wrong, but then we still probably find out tonight with NKs. this is wayyyy better than any of the other wagons, and even if DC flips town, this is real progression. I don't know any of you, but im leaning towards lilith being naive and town, with farside giving intentionally bad reads. Farside is in queue for at least one other game, so doesn't currently feel overwhelmed. If play is subpar for her, its probably on purpose. Vecna flip-flop is a bit odd, and vecna does some off somewhat as tyring to sheep-without-sheeping this game. He has been reading most people the same way town~majority does, iirc. VOTE: doncorleone

why it seem like ur copying pasting and mixing other peoples opinions.

because the last few pages have been a bit over my head. I don't know anyone's meta. I don't really know what the fuck I'm doing. But based on probabilities, this is my synthesis of what other people have said. I think you'll find some of my own thoughts in there. The main point (my reasoning for sheeping ABR) is my own, and i haven't heard anyone else articulate it. And i think I've been pretty consistent in going after lilith and farside. That shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

pedit: im not scumreading vecna, he just pinged me a bit. I'm just noting my thoughts, although vecna I'll grant you that. Was prolly just a bad read or maybe i got you confused with someone else. Its the hair throwing me off maybe. you should put a hat on. I'll retract my statement about vecna, at least for now.

ok so how did you conclude with voting DC? are you scumreading him and why?

[lilith2013]

This is a horrible counterwagon to ABR

Let's talk. I will stop with the all caps and listen to every single thing you need to get off your chest, respond to every accusation and clear up anything I feel that was misrepresented about me, and explain how my play this entire games makes sense from a town perspective and finally, if you give me a day, I will write my final case on DC.

wow okay i'll go compile stuff

[lilith2013]

Blame yourself and lilith into pissing me off enough to support this

you were advocating for DC to die before I said anything but way to misrep

[lilith2013]

Blame yourself and lilith into pissing me off enough to support this

you were advocating for DC to die before I said anything but way to misrep

Throwing up hypothetical scenario's and asking opinions on situations =/= advocating

If it actually was what I wanted to happen id be going about it entirely different.

What is this then? Sounds like you're trying to convince ABR to shoot DC

Lets lynch cakez and give ABR the joy of shooting DC tonight

VOTE: SirCakez

Cmon ABR, you cannot possibly hate on the idea of shooting DC

[lilith2013]

@ABR:

what are your current reads on votato and SS? (637, 691 for SS; and you called votato obvscum in your second post)
what has changed about Cakes that you're now scumreading him?
why do you call me & DC scum in 1271 and also say you prefer to vote farside in 1056, and then in 1334 switch to Cakes/DC as scum with me and farside as "sheeping town" - can you explain the progression on these slots?

Why not vote DC today? I think its pretty spot on that the most active players, most helpful looking goody two shoe heres my scheduled content post with quotes and explanations and soft hesitations are the ones trying hardest to look town because theyre scum.

Or can't they literally just be town who are trying hard? Like your argument here for scum!DC is "he looks to towny to be town." Do you have other reasons for calling him scum?

[lilith2013]

From page 46 to page 47, DC derails both bandwagons to vote for yours truly. Who is she protecting, is it eye or MariaR?

I'm not done. There's a LOT more to sift through and a very strong case to be made against DC.

Okay I mean it seems like DC basically tried to derail every existing wagon in that case. You're saying they did that deliberately in order to wagon you?

[lilith2013]

SS has officially moved into my null pile

[lilith2013]

chkflip who are your current scumreads/wagons of choice?

[lilith2013]

SS has officially moved into my null pile

From those three posts?

starting from 1297

[lilith2013]

please don't post like this

He's been posting like that all game where tf have you been?

i was gonna say... whats the difference between this and my other posts? actually, if someone would take the time to explain itd be helpful.

1) you say things about people that seem to copy others' posts but are making it seem like they're your thoughts (maybe not deliberately)
2) after you talk about various people, you vote a person who you didn't even mention in your reads for no apparent reason other than sheeping ABR
3) your read on ABR is "either town or scum"
3) personal preference, you just post a block of text which makes it really difficult to parse

[lilith2013]

oops there's two #3s but you get the idea

[lilith2013]

yeah I think I have to take back my abr vote

[lilith2013]

From page 46 to page 47, DC derails both bandwagons to vote for yours truly. Who is she protecting, is it eye or MariaR?

I'm not done. There's a LOT more to sift through and a very strong case to be made against DC.

Okay I mean it seems like DC basically tried to derail every existing wagon in that case. You're saying they did that deliberately in order to wagon you?

So I think that at the same time that Firebringer realized that I was laying low to not get NK'd because I have a gun and no rose, DC realized the same thing. DC and scumbuddies also chose gun and are vulnerable, so they didn't want me to get a shot off.

If you/firebringer/farside are right about eye/MariaR being scum, DC leading the wagon on me served a double purpose from stopping me to shoot and to distract from their scumbuddy.

time to go think some more. You've given me a lot of food for thought.

UNVOTE:

[lilith2013]

Unofficial VC

eyestott [2] - Knightmare491, Something_Smart
Knightmare491 [1] - eyestott
MariaR [2] - Iconeum, Firebringer
Vecna [1] - MariaR
Albert B. Rampage [2] - DonCorleone, SirCakez
DonCorleone [5] - Albert B. Rampage, chkflip, Vecna, votato, farside22

Not Voting [1]

- lilith2013

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to be chosen.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2020-05-02 23:35:31)

[lilith2013]

SS what are your thoughts on the DC wagon?

[lilith2013]

I would like to talk to anyone who is not ABR or chkflip, currently.

DC, why did you pick voting ABR over joining the existing wagon on eyestott, who was also in your scumpool?

[lilith2013]

Wow that was a wild read..

I don’t think DC is scum. His reactions, while not necessarily pro-town, seem genuinely frustrated and I think I would react similarly to being deathtunneled (and I think I have in the past.... like you don’t react to being deathtunneled with patience and grace unless you’re a saint, you’re obviously going to be upset about it and people who are using his reaction as a reason to scumread him are probably not thinking about how they would react to being deathtunneled or are scum).

Out of the people on the DC wagon (ABD, chkflip, vecna, farside, votato) I think there has to be 1+ scum.
- I don’t know what my ABR read is anymore because he’s being weirdly reasonable at some points but then really deathtunnely at other points.
- I think chkflip/vecna/votato votes seem opportunistic like they see ABR start to deathtunnel and go “ooh easy mislynch, I just have to let ABR do the work.”

• Votato in particular supposedly doesn’t have info on site meta and I think should have questioned the sudden change in ABR more, but at least was scumreading DC prior to ABR’s push.
  
• Chkflip was still scumreading votato until ABR started pushing and then was apparently totally fine with votato’s slot being on the same wagon as him and stopped pushing votato completely.
  
• Vecna sheeps the wagon even though he thought DC vs ABR was TvT. And there’s a weird transition back and forth in his earlier posts from being really friendly with ABR and then suspicious of him like he doesn’t want to come across as having too strong of a townread. So out of these 3 I think it might be vecna or chkflip.

- farside doesn’t want to listen to anything DC says and unfortunately I’m starting to agree with votato here that once she decides a slot is scummy she just tunnels it as if it’s confscum, which to some extent she said herself is her playstyle. The only person she didn’t do this to is ABR - why? Claims it’s because “meta” and she reread the thread but she didn’t do that for anyone else she was tunneling afaik.

I’m still good with a maria wagon. Need to reread cakes but I’ve been townreading him up to now. Would also be down for a vecna or chkflip wagon and could be convinced on a farside vote.

[lilith2013]

@lilith why is it scummy for chkflip to get on the DC wagon with me after SRing me, but not scummy for me to do the same after SRing chk? also, your lynch pool now stands at 7 people, right? do you scum read all 7? There's something in the way lilith changes her mind that feels off, but its just a gut feeling. Maybe a close look over her ISO would shed light. I might do that later if this wagon gets going.

Somehow I missed that you were also scumreading chkflip. So why were you okay with joining a wagon with chkflip on it if you’re still scumreading him?

My lynchpool was only 4 people so where are you getting 7 from? Who are the other 3? I don’t think all of them are scum but I think at least 1 is.

What did I change my mind about that feels off to you? I was already showing signs of scumreading you, chkflip, and vecna prior to my post? I had already backed off ABR because he had some good points but I hadn’t really said anything about DC to change my mind about. Farside I’m uncertain of now, but I think that’s the only one?

[lilith2013]

Lilith what's making you change your mind on Farside when she was your top townread?
Also I don't suppose I'm the one who can convince you no?~

The reason she was my top townread was because I felt like her posts were incredibly in tune with my own thoughts. With her joining the DC wagon and refusing to see DC as possibly town, I no longer feel that way - I mean the entire time I was reading her posts @ DC I was just shocked at how strong her confbias was. In retrospect she had been confbiasing previously on other slots, but at those times I was agreeing with her arguments and now I’m not. Is that a dumb way to read someone? Idk

[lilith2013]

You’re still in my lynchpool but idk you could try to convince me on farside

[lilith2013]

Do you think her confbias is a playstyle thing or that she could be doing this on purpose? To me I think she's doing it on purpose cause while she outright ignores certain scumreads (hi) she talks to others wonder why that is?

Have you read my farside case? It's in my iso near the bottom. I'd love your response to it.

She has said it’s a playstyle thing and I was inclined to believe her. I’ll read your case on her at some point

[lilith2013]

It's scummy you're not trying to save yourself by voting sircakez or DC earlier.

????????????????????????

1 day before deadline and she's off on a vanity wagon. She's been doing her own thing this entire game instead of collaborating with others to scumhunt with her townreads.

Both of you are scummy as hell.

? I feel like “doing your own thing” is actually townier because scum would want to just go with safe/consensus reads so they blend in

[lilith2013]

Wow that was a wild read..

I don’t think DC is scum. His reactions, while not necessarily pro-town, seem genuinely frustrated and I think I would react similarly to being deathtunneled (and I think I have in the past.... like you don’t react to being deathtunneled with patience and grace unless you’re a saint, you’re obviously going to be upset about it and people who are using his reaction as a reason to scumread him are probably not thinking about how they would react to being deathtunneled or are scum).

Out of the people on the DC wagon (ABD, chkflip, vecna, farside, votato) I think there has to be 1+ scum.
- I don’t know what my ABR read is anymore because he’s being weirdly reasonable at some points but then really deathtunnely at other points.
- I think chkflip/vecna/votato votes seem opportunistic like they see ABR start to deathtunnel and go “ooh easy mislynch, I just have to let ABR do the work.”

• Votato in particular supposedly doesn’t have info on site meta and I think should have questioned the sudden change in ABR more, but at least was scumreading DC prior to ABR’s push.
  
• Chkflip was still scumreading votato until ABR started pushing and then was apparently totally fine with votato’s slot being on the same wagon as him and stopped pushing votato completely.
  
• Vecna sheeps the wagon even though he thought DC vs ABR was TvT. And there’s a weird transition back and forth in his earlier posts from being really friendly with ABR and then suspicious of him like he doesn’t want to come across as having too strong of a townread. So out of these 3 I think it might be vecna or chkflip.

- farside doesn’t want to listen to anything DC says and unfortunately I’m starting to agree with votato here that once she decides a slot is scummy she just tunnels it as if it’s confscum, which to some extent she said herself is her playstyle. The only person she didn’t do this to is ABR - why? Claims it’s because “meta” and she reread the thread but she didn’t do that for anyone else she was tunneling afaik.

I’m still good with a maria wagon. Need to reread cakes but I’ve been townreading him up to now. Would also be down for a vecna or chkflip wagon and could be convinced on a farside vote.

yeah not 7, 6. your scumpool seems to be me, vecna, chkflip, maria, farside, ABR?

also you're OK with maria yet youre defending her and saying shes town?

Uhhh...... as I stated in my last paragraph, current lynchpool is maria, vecna, chkflip, and could be convinced on farside. Where are you seeing ABR or you in that paragraph?

I was actually questioning ABR’s reasoning which I thought was faulty logic. The ABR post may have flipped my maria read

[lilith2013]

Somehow I missed that you were also scumreading chkflip. So why were you okay with joining a wagon with chkflip on it if you’re still scumreading him?

Don’t think you answered this