BooneyToonz XIII: To Boon or Not To Boon - [END]

[davesaz]

I misread Latias and Latios.
Bonus points if you know what I misread it as.

I gather from the way the game started I'm lucky there was an open slot so I didn't have to hydra.

[davesaz]

A cookie for the bright eyed one.
Though I figure a lot of folks will read it the same way as I do.

[davesaz]

I think 50 is most likely town, and if so I think I have a reliable scumtell lined up for him.

[davesaz]

Guess my question is forever ignored.

Doesn't look like much time passed... wonder if it has been answered after this point.

[davesaz]

Hello, I have not read the game yet but I am 100% certain in these reads:

50 Judge Powers: town, trust me on this.
LoserdudeOG: newbtown
Haggle - [Billy Pilgrim + Hectic]: gut scumread
Joan of Arc: actually the devil.
Chara: Mason with Asriel Hydra, but still rolled scum
Latias and Latios - [Chemist1422 + Gamma Emerald]: obvtown
BrightEyedFish: ML bait
Espressojet: newbscum
Amrun: confident meta townread
Bambi Jay: definitely a lyncher on Elsa Jay
AaronFrost: null, just can’t read him
RCEnigma: leanscum
Venus and Mars - [Shiro + Nancy Drew 39]: Deepwolf option
Emperor flippyNips: Scummy town
Frank: 100% Jester read
Doctor Drew: gut town despite being incredibly scummy
Karnage: Mafia aligned, possibly the GF
Romeo and Juliet [Chennis + Asriel]: Mason with Chara
Titus: Probably Post-Restricted Mafia
chkflip: obv cult recruit
davesaz: TWTBAW

Sheep me and we should win this game
-Latios

It's way too early in the game for this post.

[davesaz]

@bottom of 9.
Titus is either feeling better and/or has more time because not much court during the holidays, or town.

[davesaz]

No one can confirm or disprove a miller on d1.

FFS, I just did. I bloody

confirmed

there is a miller in play, and chkflip is the only Miller claim, so his claim is valid and confirmed.

Nothing can be confirmed without the mod's post. Just a reminder of some basic concepts.
Given you're going on about this so much, you're informed

[davesaz]

I am looking for a reason RCE was the only RVS wagon.

Isn't the least hypothesis here that we just didn't have a real RVS this game?

[davesaz]

Where is your quote located in the PM? Do not describe more.

At the risk of being attacked as a hypocrite, I think this is bad hat.

I missed that question and agree it's not ok to ask it that way.

[davesaz]

A) I'm a Town fucking Hider. I die if I target a Lord or someone who "returns as Lord to investigations".

Is it really necessary to out this so early? It's kinda specific to be fake. It's not like we're likely to hang a miller d1 anyway.

[davesaz]

i'm not preventing you from playing this game, titus, it's you

No. You block me from scumhunting my way, you are blocking my optimal town use. Period. Nancy refused thanks to you chenn and Chara so the point is moot.

I have no idea what this is talking about. I don't like the tone the last several pages.

[davesaz]

I am looking for a reason RCE was the only RVS wagon.

Isn't the least hypothesis here that we just didn't have a real RVS this game?

That's not a hypothesis but another way of restating what I said. My thought is why. I lack the info to answer though.

So to rephrase, why was there only one RVS wagon?
I interpreted the original post as being specifically about RCE and not about there being only one.

[davesaz]

I got a little confused for a while because I misremembered Chara being in a hydra this game and thought holy fuck look at all the slips.

[davesaz]

Don't Venus and Mars have their own moons too??

Evidently you're not an astronomy buff. Mars does but Venus doesn't.

[davesaz]

I suppose it's not necessary at all to remind y'all that 50 has a tendency to claim the effect using wording a little different than the actual role name even in standard role games.
Best to just let it go for now, things are likely to be resolved one way or the other in any case.

[davesaz]

Confirm identical roles should be possible in the mind of Boon, though not likely.

[davesaz]

Hydras seem to be making the most noise, that shit is scummy, ergo....

Can you be a bit more specific on what you think is noise?

[davesaz]

50JP posting 3-5 times in a row would qualify.

That would verify the fallacy that it's hydras making the noise.

[davesaz]

I picked a number and davesaz won the prize.

The prize being a question from me about my 2nd random pick which is Chara.

Question:

David,
If you were scum partners with Chara,how would you portray your relationship in the is thread?

What do you mean by portray? If you mean interact with, it’s entirely situational.

[davesaz]

You scumreading them based on a fake reads list that they admitted was fake?

It's a statement that that kind of post was too early.
This does not necessarily imply an alignment related thought. I say a lot of things that many people assume are implying an alignment. Usually they are not.
It was admitted as a joke later. I don't see it as a joke when initially posted.

[davesaz]

No.

How hard is it to fucking code the post numbers, associate them with the poster, and say what you want to say collectively instead of whatever this is supposed to be?

It's so Goddamn spammy.

It's hard. I like this, quit complaining. If it were more than a page of posts in a row it would matter, but it's not.

[davesaz]

@Drew/Joan, When did you both get placed into this hood? I find this incredibly odd and suspicious.

Why is a start of game neighborhood suspicious?

BP

I'd say revealing it early is suspicious, if anything.
For a Boon game to not have game start neighborhoods would be unusual, but I don't know how many of this type game Titus has played.

[davesaz]

Thanks Boon, you da best. <3. But are all of the other roles to be found in Mafia Wiki?

This would have been a good place to post link instead of quoting.
If you have a specific role to ask about, might be better to PM. Unless it's in the thread already in which case what are you trying to ask about? Some of us have played a lot of BooneyToonz games and may already know.

[davesaz]

I have a Billy read on Haggle. I figure it will be a Hectic read too, and finally a Haggle read.

[davesaz]

They wrote in the post that they hadn't read the game yet, but these were their reads. Then they said sheep me for the win. You think that's a real post?

BP

Yes. I said I didn't see it as a joke. You don't get to question that.

[davesaz]

I picked a number and davesaz won the prize.

The prize being a question from me about my 2nd random pick which is Chara.

Question:

David,
If you were scum partners with Chara,how would you portray your relationship in the is thread?

What do you mean by portray? If you mean interact with, it’s entirely situational.

Reminder @BEF there was a question back.

[davesaz]

How did you get an image of my family's cat?

Wait, I guess there are lots of tuxedos. But it sure looks like him.

[davesaz]

Then whom, betwixt mine numbers, dared to bring folly?

I'm liking the quotes, though to be honest I have not remembered enough of the bard to know if they are real or not, nor from where.

[davesaz]

What's up with people suddenly voting each other?

Not much catching my eye reading the 12 pages or so, but this did.
What kind of question is this in a mafia game?

[davesaz]

You scumreading them based on a fake reads list that they admitted was fake?

It's a statement that that kind of post was too early.
This does not necessarily imply an alignment related thought. I say a lot of things that many people assume are implying an alignment. Usually they are not.
It was admitted as a joke later. I don't see it as a joke when initially posted.

This is kind of scum-indicative. It's harder for scum to discern a joke readslist since townie's reads will in general align more and that reads list should be obviously fake.

-Hectic

It's 58 year old guy who would have been thought of as autism spectrum when he was a kid, if that were as well recognized as it is today.
I don't do jokes period. Capish?

[davesaz]

I have a hard time interpreting images as well...
All caught up.

[davesaz]

Also dave is still aggressively not producing content.

I think you may be overestimating my content generating capacity.

[davesaz]

You do know my scum game, and my town game.

Maybe explain your opportunistic naked vote instead of just sheeping the easy wagon.

I find the whole case thing daunting and inefficient these days, man. I prefer to sit back and watch where things go. Are you really sweating three votes, though?

And how am I the first vote on the wagon... But sheeping.

like

what

You obviously sheeped invisible players, duh. I mean ghosts who voted Drew in invisible ink.

Okay, now you all know, I was in Penguin Mafia.

I strongly dislike antics like this. I ended up looking up this Pyrrha person from activity list, checking the OP to see if we really have someone on VLA until Jan 31, and then found it was an intentional "slip". Nice going. You are now prompted to reply with an ok boomer.
A clarification -- I don't want to imply I'm incapable of getting or making jokes at all. End PSA.

The dislike of the post is real btw. Extra stuff clutters the thread. Is this really going to help determine alignments in this game?

[davesaz]

Yeah, sorry, newb

Eh?

[davesaz]

@DrDrew: Has Joan said anything in your hood other than hi? I don't think you have given an update on that.

[davesaz]

@amrun, my 92, 552, 598, 1088, 1098, 1440 are all specific content related to stating or generating alignment reads.
Some of the others are aimed at generating alignment info as well, but I'll grant you that it's much more subtle as rapport generation or lack thereof is difficult to recognize at times.
Multiple people can attest to the fact that you won't see much in your face posting from me, especially this early in a game.

[davesaz]

Being resigned to being sucmread for just existing is ground I have trod very heavily. I would never consider that AI by itself.

[davesaz]

I can buy Haggle as scum, especially with Joan.

Also dave is still aggressively not producing content.

P-edit: yes

Why are you scumreading our slot? I didn't see you provide reasons in your earlier list.

-Hectic

Honestly, I really don’t like your play around the Dave slot. Feels like you’re setting up a mislynch there.

You think we're setting up a mislynch by literally being the only slot trying to push that? And now, I'm thinking it was a miscommunication. I'm going to believe when someone tells me about a irl mental processing issue. I thought the joke was obvious and he was trying to shade a slot for an obvious joke. I now think I'm wrong. I think it's more likely that you're town on the wrong track than scum here though.

BP

I thought that post was odd because it was shading both you for pushing me, and me for not having content.
I don't think it's scummy though. Worth watching to see if a pattern of illogical stuff develops.

[davesaz]

Thanks for the explanation.
You should avoid mentioning other ongoing games, that's against the rules.

[davesaz]

I think I pretty clearly noted that I have weak scumreads on the both of you, but only one of you can be scum. I’m not sure which one (if any) yet. Right at this second, I’d pick Haggle between the two of you.

How closely are you paying attention?

[davesaz]

Wow, aggressively is a very popular word this year.

[davesaz]

Now that I’ve caught up, pretty closely I’d think. Maybe not as closely to the stuff I had to read to catch up.

Why, have I misunderstood something?

If the reasons for your reads are truthful, some things have happened that might have caused a re-evaluation.

[davesaz]

Yuuuuuuuuup.

Also bye

You do realize that you're supposed to actually contribute to the game when you're prodded, right?

[davesaz]

Now that I’ve caught up, pretty closely I’d think. Maybe not as closely to the stuff I had to read to catch up.

Why, have I misunderstood something?

If the reasons for your reads are truthful, some things have happened that might have caused a re-evaluation.

I wish this post was less inscrutable.

What was your stated reason for scumreading me?
Have you read the things that have happened in the game since you stated that?
This is not rocket science. I'm not going to state the obvious conclusion for you, but it is indeed obvious.

[davesaz]

Which half don't you get? Or is it that the two things are together in one post?
<no, I don't miss everything lol>

[davesaz]

Can't help on that one, don't know who the avatar is an image of.

[davesaz]

Morning catch up. 1548 Can't berate the fish for having too many town reads and the Chara read might be insightful. I think a lot of the data is out of date and that makes the list itself almost useless.

[davesaz]

One thing that I thought was weird was Dave’s freakout over my altslip because in LNT - Dave was in that game - I must have alt-slipped like with at least 7-8 different accounts and I don’t recall Dave having any reaction to it whatsoever but to one accidental alt-slip here, he gets so upset?

Because of the commentary that went along with it, I thought you were using a post by another player in another game (or yourself in another game) to say something about your role here.

[davesaz]

I don't believe that, like, at all.

You don't let yourself get lynches as the fucking doctor.

This is being insensitive to someone who knows their own meta. It isn't the first post that does this in the last page but it's the one I didn't like. I think it's NAI though to this point, with a couple pages left to read.

[davesaz]

this isn't a readlist. just getting my bearings. as an aside while writing this, i have to admire Fish's commitment to his random and slightly pointless question about how dave might treat me as his scumpartner. and dave's equal commitment to it. i enjoy this.

I think you're misreading reminding him that I asked him what he meant as commitment. I just like to see answers to my questions. I get beat up for asking them, for not asking them, for them being stupid questions, for being questions with obvious answers, for shading people in posts that aren't even stating an opinion on alignment. I like to get my money's worth.

[davesaz]

davesaz: as usual, i enjoy you, and find most everything you've post rings highly truthful. unfortunately, you're a brick wall when it comes to my methods of reading players. if you read this list, which player do you think i most need to dive into?

I'm kinda in a hurry to catch up and didn't look at details. This post will help me remember that you asked.
I think lists of everyone less than a week real time into a game are half fake more often than not. Being half fake isn't necessarily alignment indicative, as town feel a lot of pressure to have reads and get pressured for not having enough. For the record I don't know how much of this is real because I only skimmed it. This comment is about the size of the list, not the contents.
<mumbles to self> Bet nobody reads the disclaimer part </mumble>

[davesaz]

@Joan, what is meant by the modifier “conditional”? I couldn’t find it either in the Wiki or Boon Bank?

Don't ask for details in a boon game. There is some condition upon it's use, and having that condition be revealed is highly likely to be bad for town. You're not going to catch someone lying in any case.

[davesaz]

Bottom of 64. Oh good, I'm not the only one who understands this.
Pedit: great, almost a whole page in the pedit.

[davesaz]

I can't wait to watch the other eight grandstanding posts from people on the wagon who CoUlDn'T PoSsIbLy BeLiEvE mafia can a) have a doctor, or b) fake claim the safest fucking fake claim in the game.

I dunno, doctor isn’t usually used as a fake claim because it puts a target on the claimant’s back. Sure it’s possible though but not extremely common.

@Boon, can you explain exactly what a conditional modifier is?

. Thanks.

wow, dense anyone?
Suppose someone has a modifier but doesn't want to say exactly what it is.
They say their role is conditional.
You're not allowing Joan to be smart here, and I'm beginning to get annoyed by it.
Drop subject please.

[davesaz]

I probably stomped a little too hard there. It's one of the drawbacks of the post as you catch up method.

[davesaz]

@davesaz, Stop picking fights and talk to me about Haggle.

Do you have experience with the heads, or together in this hydra?
They seem to be very much themselves, meta wise.

[davesaz]

With Hectic, yes. BP on the other hand, not really.

Was this a reply to the experience with part, or a comment on the very much themselves part?

[davesaz]

I need to know Titus's background on them to be able to evaluate her approach to them.

I used to think that the people who push me were scum and the protective ones were town. A couple times getting goaded into claiming by town and then NK'd taught me the error of those ways, and I started TRing people who pushed me. Now it's starting to swing back the other way a little, or at least into balance.

Pedit: no, not fart. I have to know whether you're familiar with the personalities. I've also started trying to be a little less cruel which is part of the reason for needing to know that.

[davesaz]

Is your issue with Haggle that they primarily chose me to attack, with a shallow attack? Or is there more to it than that?

[davesaz]

I need to decide whether starting pushes on a substantial percentage of the player list to see who gets resistance and who doesn't is a town tactic or scum.
Going by meta it's probably more town indicative.

I've done enough re-reading of Haggle to lean town. It's kinda weak and I can see why some of the people might scumread them, but I think it's largely because their weaker stuff is more memorable than the stronger stuff.

[davesaz]

What would you consider some of their stronger points? In a broad strokes manner, doesn't have to be specific posts. I'll probably catch it on reread.

If you don't mind I'd like to let that simmer, to see if Titus has anything to say about it.

[davesaz]

Bp is reacting to v&m evasiveness regarding his questioning as pushback. It is a reasonable reaction and I find attempts to paint the reaction as scummy defenive to be a bit suspicious. This is coming from the guy who misreads social cues. Guess it's easier as a bystander than when there is an underlying agenda. Researching the details to see exactly which slots are exploiting this has to wait till I'm back on computer.

[davesaz]

And why are both you and BP ignoring 1751?

It said right in my post that I was on mobile.

[davesaz]

And why are both you and BP ignoring 1751?

It said right in my post that I was on mobile.

It seems that you’ve been cherry picking only things you dislike about my posting. Would you consider that to be a fair assessment?

That would not be a fair assessment.
I have no opinion on whether I like or dislike your posting.

[davesaz]

The thing is Chara, I clearly did answer it and BP kept continuing to ask me the exact same question if I hadn’t, so Dave accusing me of “evasiveness” is straight up whack.

When you give an answer and someone says they don't understand it, and you say read the fucking answer, yes it's evasive.
I do see that you made an attempt later to clarify, so fine, you stopped being evasive.

[davesaz]

I don't usually respond to things I like btw. What's the point of nodding along, other than clogging up the thread?

[davesaz]

Yeah, looking from the outside of the conversation it was clear to me that it was a disconnect and neither of you really caught what the other was trying to say.
I'm not sure on either of you, and like I said before if it's TvT then there may be someone eager to exploit it to paint one of you as scum.

Saying Haggle wasn't being aggressive for example doesn't ring true at all, because it was misrepping that whole thing as being defensive where in fact both sides thought the other was attacking.

Pedit: is this going to be the time I'm actually in the game where scum fakeclaims miller? Or is it just normal town thirsting for action? Time will tell.

[davesaz]

I need to decide whether starting pushes on a substantial percentage of the player list to see who gets resistance and who doesn't is a town tactic or scum.

Pop quiz -- to whom does this comment apply? I made the post after noticing someone in the game is doing exactly this, and thought it would generate immediate discussion, but it didn't.
I will reveal my answer later.

[davesaz]

Activity isn't a good way to read Titus. Her RL interruptions tend to come in spurts and those can happen during either alignment.
Without divulging so much that it tips her off to what to change, there are differences in what she does while she's here and this does appear to be the town pattern.
I don't know for sure yet how accurate it is. It's much easier to recognize things in hindsight than it is to recognize them on the fly.

[davesaz]

Following up on my previous question...

Hey Titus, any particular reason you're making little nudges instead of larger pushes, and then switching quickly to another target?

[davesaz]

Can this be the game we make town great again?

Can you refrain from incessant one-liners?
We have a decent start on this game being more content than not.

[davesaz]

GF is immune to this and likely to exist.

GF is a contraboon'd role meaning it cannot appear.

[davesaz]

The important question is, would scum knowing there isn't a GF be inclined to hint that there could be one, in order to cast doubt on clears?

[davesaz]

Plenty of information can be gained from a wagon, even if it's not a lynch.
Taking note that someone is playing the information card this early, in case that's relevant.

VOTE: Emp. Flippynips

[davesaz]

R & J is looking a lot better than Haggle rn but I still think we should stay on Flips.

These posts always confuse me.
Better as a lynch? That I'd agree with.
If better as in more town then what are you smoking?

[davesaz]

Mechtown:
chkflip - miller
50 Judge Power - 1-shot Recharged Desperate Weak Non-Consecutive Visitor*
Latias and Latios - odd night weak hider*
Other claims:
Joan de Arc + Dr Drew - neighbors
Joan de Arc - conditional doctor

*Weaks die if they visit someone who returns guilty to cop (millers)

Mechtown should be read as "people who claimed things that could theoretically be disproven if they were scum".
It should not be considered to be confirmed.

[davesaz]

Emperor's lurking is NAI. He is likely to replace out, so he isn't a good PL neither.

Not a good PL, but no mention of who is on the wagon, if this clears anything up.

[davesaz]

I would prefer to see something more than a blatant "hurr I'm not playing until d2".

[davesaz]

@V&M I quoted the post you're thinking about, and the comment was about nips being a PL.

[davesaz]

Drew, I think that's a BP style thing and NAI. Saying I have a TR might be a stretch, but I think it's self resolving.

[davesaz]

Drew, I think that's a BP style thing and NAI. Saying I have a TR might be a stretch, but I think it's self resolving.

What is your opinion on Hectic?

Generally matches the town games we have in common.
Having their names in their sig makes ctrl-f less than useless.
There are more posts than I would have expected from the "where's hectic" posts I keep seeing.

[davesaz]

2114 looks more like encouragement to read as much as possible to me, than it does permission to not read.
Not that it really matters, that should be the advice in any case.

[davesaz]

R&J's post count is heavily inflated by Chenn "signing" in a 2nd post about 20 times.
It feels substantially different than other Chenn games I've seen, though I don't have much if any meta on the other head.
I don't know what to make of different in terms of alignment.

[davesaz]

Bambi Jay feels quite different from past games as well, and likewise don't know how to translate that to alignment.

[davesaz]

Just swondering, how often does Boon put different alignments together in hoods?

Often enough for it to be a concern, but there are plenty of instances where hoods are same alignment too.

[davesaz]

I am not opposed to R and J either, I noticed they have 151 posts and I cannot recall any of their thoughts meaning they have said a lot without saying anything. I do not like that.

If you take a close look, the count is very inflated due to Romeo's tendency to forget to sign and then make an empty post for just signing purposes.
And yes, I agree it looks like a lot of words but if you net out the message I'm getting practically no signal there and lots of noise.

[davesaz]

I think you mean devoid there. Can we lynch it?

[davesaz]

Looks like I forgot something.
VOTE: R&J

[davesaz]

Sitewide fwiw.

[davesaz]

This is the place where I get the joke and others don't.

[davesaz]

I think that making that kind of joke while being wagoned means something though. R&J are trying to appear like they don't care about being wagoned?

[davesaz]

Thinking about the flavor thing, how many roles have a fitting Shakespeare character anyway?
Sure there are a few obvious ones that line up, but not a whole lot. No reason to suspect the obvious ones are even in the game as characters or roles.

So I'd say perhaps but don't count on it.

[davesaz]

Umm, comments on current gamestate and the stuff that happened in the 700 posts while you were gone?

[davesaz]

Unofficial

vote count

Romeo and Juliet [8]: Chara, Espressojet, Haggle, Venus and Mars, chkflip, Amrun, davesaz, AaronFrost
Emperor flippyNips [6]: Creature, 50 Judge Powers, BrightEyedFish, Frank, Latias and Latios, Titus
Haggle [3]: Doctor Drew, RCEnigma, Romeo and Juliet
Joan of Arc [1]: Bambi Jay,
Chkflip [1]: Joan of Arc

Not Voting [2]: Clemency, Emperor flippyNips,

Still more than 4 days afaik.

[davesaz]

VOTE: A50

My night action failure suggests A50 town.

Desperate affected me at the start of night actions.

Have no idea what is that

Means Titus would have died if A50 was scum, so he’s confitown now.

Assuming we believe Titus and/or have some way of proving the desperate was added.
Folks taking logic leaps for no reason is not going to help this game.
I thought he was already obvtown and upgrading it to conf does not help -- and could hurt.

[davesaz]

Scum assigned Desperate at start of night 1.

I think there is a little reaching going on here.
You received a desperate (if we believe that) before your action took place. Whether it was beginning of night or not is another question.
But I can't find a scum motivation for claiming this and specifically claiming something that would cement A50 unless A50 is also scum.
Which means you're probably town but possibly misguided about what happened.

[davesaz]

I might as well out what I know since my role is now toast.
I was a "daggersmith" which is just a flavored version of a gunsmith.
I checked Haggle, who does not have a dagger (gun). That means not mafia unless doctor.
The Juvenile Delinquent thing was not something I was aware of. The setup is hella swingy with this type of thing and Titus's modifier changing.
Hopefully it's somewhat balanced swing, if there is such a thing.

Perhaps the large number of semi-conf town is the compensation for the swing.

[davesaz]

If you don't put 2 and 2 together re:[post2524[/post], gunsmith is cop-like.

[davesaz]

Read the entire post with the understanding that I

never

assume everything is the truth unless the mod posts it. It's

probably

the truth, which is exactly what my post says.

Pedit: Macbeth.

[davesaz]

Did You confirm it was toast from Boon, Dave?

I got a PM that said it was.

[davesaz]

Oh so all invests are locked now?

The ones that are "like a cop". There could be other roles that have an investigative outcome if used correctly, and we should explicitly not talk much more about that.

[davesaz]

They'll never understand our love

Wouldn't be surprised if scum took this as a lover soft.

[davesaz]

How can scum target so many players at once? Titus, Dave, You?

Did you read the entire flip?

Remember what I said about Titus's modifier change -- it's a leap to assume that scum caused it. It changed for unknown cause.
Remember Boon's mechanics in LNT? Changes to modifiers are a hallmark of the big BooneyToonz games.
Because the changes from the Juvenile Delinquent role were a factor of the death they're just like a gated role with a hidden gate.
Assuming a motive behind the change is championship conclusion jumping.
It's another reason why massclaim, in particular full claim, is a huge mistake.

[davesaz]

Boon's most likely not going to answer that.
What would have happened is that a modifier was added and nothing more.
The effect of the modifier will be to cause the action to fail on town and kill Titus on scum.

It may even make a hood with the target (scum in this case) being the only occupant. I have actually been the recipient of such a hood in a previous game, though in that case the neighborizer was NK'd after the action.
Pedit: given Titus is an "add a neighbor" type, it would add the scum to an existing neighborhood if there were already people there. Not gonna happen now...

Pedit2: whoa, will I ever get this posted? And does it even matter now?

[davesaz]

Ugh I bet I need to read all that slowly.

[davesaz]

NAR only matters for actions which depend on each other.
If I were investigating the killed player it would be no result. But apparently the side-effects of the death happen

after night is over

. In previous Boon games, changes to modifiers etc. affected the next night.

I think Creature's results should be interpreted without the effect of the JD flip.
I have not actually read whatever Creature claimed. Somewhere between 10 and 30 posts popped up in all the pedits and I was on a mission to get submit pressed.

[davesaz]

@MOD: Was the JD flip change that nerfed cops an "after night" type thing?

I got 3 separate PMs -- my result, the role being nerfed, day start.

[davesaz]

Would a screenshot of the PM list (not the content of the PMs just the list) be against the rules?

Just kidding...

[davesaz]

Well, I'm not lying about my results so it's either a mod error or a mod kill.

[davesaz]

Or I'm right, since it's identical to the mechanics in Last Night Tomorrow where the modifiers granted by night games were only effective the next night.

[davesaz]

You have my word for it. I don't know whether to believe Creature or if it's a gamit to get conf.

[davesaz]

The nerf is posted right in the flip.

[davesaz]

We could be talking about two completely different things.
Neighborize, right? Where does that fall vs. miscellaneous?

Pedit: fair enough, coplike is extremely vague.

[davesaz]

If neighborize falls in the recruit level then misc (modify) comes first.

[davesaz]

Regarding the juvenile delinquent role, consider it the exact same way an enabler role works.
It's a generic cop enabler. Cops who act before the end of the night where it dies get their action. After end of night they are disabled. If it died during the day they would be disabled that night.

I still need to read Creature. Maybe I should do that instead of continuing this pointless argument.

[davesaz]

Boon confirmed my hypothesis by PM. Presumably he will do so here as well.
I did not ask about Titus's thing on whether the modifier change resolves before or after. There are multiple interpretations based on where the modify falls. Not to mention we don't know if it was a day action, night action, or another (undeclared) gated change.
And I really need to stop and read Creature.

[davesaz]

I copped A50 N1 and got no result

Ascetic, JK, RB. Several reasons for a no result. This is

not

an invitation for someone to claim unless you think A50's alignment is at stake.

I'm pretty much a tracker now

I used to have cop and PT cop abilities too, but I lost them due Jet's flip

I'd actually be surprised if PT cop would be nerfed, as it isn't actually an alignment check. You might want to ask the mod and/or recheck your PM if you actually got one.
Please clarify what you said about A50 having a neighborhood though, that was unclear. You used a regular cop right?
Yes or no answer only, are there any modifiers like weak/loyal/disloyal on your role?

Pedit: yeah we have no idea what Creature's result means, yet.

[davesaz]

There are probably some embarrassing knee-jerk votes still out there.

[davesaz]

Repeating my previous question.

@MOD: Was the JD flip change that nerfed cops an "after night" type thing? While I appreciate the prompt reply to the PM, it should be a public answer IMO

To paraphrase the answer I got via PM was that the disablement was after the flip, which confirms what I was saying. Hopefully I didn't nail the wording exactly how Boon answers it because there are a lot of folks around here who don't keep their daggers sheathed.

[davesaz]

I can't help with interpreting your new modifier, there are too many ways it could happen to be deterministic.
I feel like Creature wouldn't make up a no result for most situations. And there are numerous ways that can happen as well.

Pedit:
5) A50 was JK'd which would interfere with both actions regardless of A50's alignment. Takes the least amount of assumptions.

[davesaz]

Re: hider -- yes that's possible too. I have seen A50 claim something, claim something else, and end up being what he said in the first place.

Pedit: Consider though how likely Almost's claims are to be true. I could see someone JKing there thinking the claim was fake, and I could see scum JKing there to keep from getting hidden behind and outed.

One thing we can be very sure of, is that there are too many possibilities to solve that slot today via mechanics.

Pedit2: hmm, yeah that could be right, I get that wrong a lot. Probably because I infer more from the name than the role actually has.
IIRC there is a boon role that works like I suggested.

[davesaz]

AF seems significantly less solvey than what I'm used to.

[davesaz]

@Hectic, I cant tell if you were joking, but AFF is kinda sitting the fence here which isnt usual for him.

Don't you guys have a hydra pt?

[davesaz]

Why do you want yourself to look like scum so bad?

[davesaz]

VOTE: Bambi Jay
(fake) Hammers are tools, not toys.

[davesaz]

Who said they're climbing? I assume resting between climbs?

[davesaz]

This almost became a bunch of one line separate posts but I decided to consolidate.

I respect Titus's belief that she is a VCA master, but it's really not that accurate before a scum flip pops up.
It is evidence, not a guilty. It should be given the correct weight and a proper case built around it.

I don't know if aggressively refusing to actually scumhunt is AI for flippynips, but it's pretty darn evident.

I think the majority of the really active players are most likely town given the gamestate. I'd be surprised if more than one is scum. The tunnels are likely TtT as well. No evidence of that and I'm no expert on reading most (perhaps all) of the tunnel targets but the feeling is real.

Pedit: One vote is not a PL. But yes I sometimes use my vote as a behavior modification tool when it isn't needed elsewhere at the time.

[davesaz]

I'd prefer to make up my own mind on Drew. I'm nearly certain I have played with him before, and I have a vague memory of a general awkwardness but it's too vague to use as actual meta.

[davesaz]

Oh hey, another substantial post for a pagetop. See kids, you don't have to rush to make a lol post to get them, if you just be yourself they'll just fall right into place.

[davesaz]

chkflip: still fine with him, upset that he's no longer so obviously town given the miller claim when we had a miller flip.

Oh, I forgot about this; this is kind of a big deal actually. 2 millers in a game is unusual.

-Hectic

I have been in multiple games with multiple millers.
They are different roles also.

[davesaz]

Bottom of 139. Posting will lose the current location indicator.

[davesaz]

I sincerely doubt the cop/doc role pms indicate an enabler.

Dave

, did your role pm indicate an enabler?

No, pretty sure I said that already. Enablers are usually silent.

[davesaz]

So that was an interesting catchup.

Joan sounds like someone who was told to claim doc on Titus to explain Titus's result and cement its effects, but not coached on what to say when questioned on that.

[davesaz]

I typically abhor lynching claimed docs, and the coaching *could* come from (bad) town in a game where hoods exist. So I'm not sold on that as being the right lynch, just to be clear.

[davesaz]

Technically you only have the ability to not vote there.
Did you read what I said?

[davesaz]

That was @V&M, kinda loses the context on the next page.

[davesaz]

Let's examine that thought I started to have earlier. Is there any plausible way that this is a team coaching Joan but it not working out.

Does "confirmation" of a doc save on Titus prematurely cement anything that shouldn't be cemented?
Let me see if I can summarize the relevant parts. There are other actions which are immaterial to this part of the logic.

Titus claims to have received desperate pre-N1, meaning it was in effect for N1 actions. Desperate means "fail on town, succeed on scum but die".
Titus claims her ability is neighborize and her target was Almost. I don't remember if this would have meant 1) add to an existing neighborhood or 2) create a new neighborhood which a) includes the neighborizer or b) does not.
There has been speculation that Desperate would not die if it targeted scum and was doc saved that night.

If the neighborize went through (wasn't blocked / redirected / etc) and failed, then Almost is town.
If the neighborize was blocked by any means then it says nothing about Almost alignment.

Could the neighborize succeed, be a type 2b neighborize (creating a new hood that Titus is not part of) and she was doc saved? That would result in no evidence that Almost is in a hood so he can't be caught that way, and it would mean that Almost is scum. But it would be completely wrong for scum to claim a save in that case because it hurts their cause more than it helps. In fact for scum, it's better to claim just about any other living target.

Despite appearances, and I must admit I find the appearances very suspect, it makes no sense for scum!Joan in a team with Almost to claim a save on town!Titus.

Unfortunately that aspect of things nets out as follows:
The entire incident says nothing mechanically about Almost's alignment, because the potential of a blocking action negates pretty much all of it.
Almost and Joan pretty much can't both be scum and plan this set of claims. It makes Almost's possible inno much weaker.

That was quite complicated to work through, but strangely unsatisfying.

Pedit: y'all are typing like mad while I'm thinking.

[davesaz]

Technically you only have the ability to not vote there.

This part was in response to your hard veto comment.

The other part ended up being restated in my new wall.

[davesaz]

What does nips have to do with enchantress?

[davesaz]

What does nips have to do with enchantress?

If A50 was targeted and based on Creature’s roleblock claim, everything. It didn’t really make any sense to me that Nips would be the target but Creature targeted A50 and was blocked, so enchantress had to be on one of them and A50 makes a helluva lot more sense then Creature. Prior to knowing that, Titus’ theory made no sense.

What's the direct connection to nips? Is there a claimed action I'm missing or something?

[davesaz]

That quote is mangled, it's "may also make it so they die if they can target successfully".
It's important to note that this is an option not a definition of the modifier, so only the people who actually get the modifier will get directly informed of which variant is in use this game. I have no reason to doubt the death on success variant is in use btw.

[davesaz]

To paraphrase Titus's VCA, there were 3 wagons all at 5 or so, and two of those have flipped or been mech cleared as town. This implies the 3rd wagon was on scum.

[davesaz]

There is a little more to it but that's the gist as far as I can tell.

[davesaz]

My theory, which we won't know is accurate until postgame I suppose, is that scum thought they were killing a lover and thus would get a two-fer. That could override killing a doc N1. I don't want to be inconsiderate but it's also important to consider proficiency -- a doc who doesn't yet know who to target is unlikely to be effective in any case.

As for the blocking action, a simple analysis of your EOD position should show that it's likely they thought you would target one of them and that town would figure out what the results meant. It's fairly obvious that if there is an enchantress it isn't (competent) town or we wouldn't have spent all this time discussing it. I'm coming along to the point of view that we do know that your target could be predicted, and that your action could perhaps be manipulated by scum and exploited to "confirm someone as town". Someone who I won't mention rn is "right" in their scumreads but for a fairly poor reason -- or at least they haven't articulated the better reasons.

One other thing I'll bring up since it concerns 50's reads, if scum were informed the game had a Juvenile Delinquent, they would have incentive to want to find out who it was. Was anyone especially suspicious of the miller claim and did that generate lengthy discussion? This piece of evidence might help explain the NK or identify who was exploring that angle, if there was anyone.

[davesaz]

@Titus re: 3949 when you were told Desperate modifier was added, were you also told you die when targeting scum or did you infer that from the definition?

Pedit: well that's interesting. Boon using the same modifier with different definitions?

[davesaz]

There's no proof 50s ability didn't go through though.

Every time you guys mention it I'm gonna keep mentioning it too.

50 says the shot was refunded.
It isn't a role that gives proof.

[davesaz]

My theory, which we won't know is accurate until postgame I suppose, is that scum thought they were killing a lover and thus would get a two-fer. That could override killing a doc N1. I don't want to be inconsiderate but it's also important to consider proficiency -- a doc who doesn't yet know who to target is unlikely to be effective in any case.

As for the blocking action, a simple analysis of your EOD position should show that it's likely they thought you would target one of them and that town would figure out what the results meant. It's fairly obvious that if there is an enchantress it isn't (competent) town or we wouldn't have spent all this time discussing it. I'm coming along to the point of view that we do know that your target could be predicted, and that your action could perhaps be manipulated by scum and exploited to "confirm someone as town". Someone who I won't mention rn is "right" in their scumreads but for a fairly poor reason -- or at least they haven't articulated the better reasons.

One other thing I'll bring up since it concerns 50's reads, if scum were informed the game had a Juvenile Delinquent, they would have incentive to want to find out who it was. Was anyone especially suspicious of the miller claim and did that generate lengthy discussion? This piece of evidence might help explain the NK or identify who was exploring that angle, if there was anyone.

So you think scum is informed about the roles?

One specific role.

[davesaz]

"ArE yOu EvEn ReAdInG?"

One for cops, one for doctors.

What cop enabler?

ArE yOu?

The R&J role that already flipped. Juvenile Delinquent is a miller + cop enabler.

[davesaz]

I tagged R&J as the delinquent flip incorrectly, EJ.

[davesaz]

Cop enabler is written right into the public definition of the Juvenile Delinquent role. If scum knew there was a JD and could guess who it is, it would immediately be the top priority kill.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Emperor flippyNips

The VCA reason for doing this was too much of a leap without any scum flips. The D1 lurk was a somewhat better reason given the previous game (LNT?) where he D1 lurked as scum. What triggers this for me is realizing it was obvious who 50 would target from his D1 posting, and realizing that would yield a guilty if Nips is scum. Scum went to the trouble to protect Nips from 50's role.

[davesaz]

I’m not answering things I’ve already explained.

This is one of the things that causes unnecessary friction in games.
If there is someone who doesn't understand, then you have not explained. Answering questions is the only right thing to do.

[davesaz]

davesaz: do you ever hydra?

I have at times, not something I do a lot.

[davesaz]

Someone asked me for a Joan read, quite a while back. Behavior wise, scumlean. Not interested in lynching a potential doc. Most likely self resolving, and not gonna make it to lylo one way or the other.

[davesaz]

My interpretation of what Boon said is that the (role) abilities are what gets disabled.
Modifiers are not affected and desperate is a modifier.

[davesaz]

@Chara, if Dave is right about scum being informed about delinquent, than how does chk claiming miller help find delinquent?

You're so close to seeing it on your own here.

[davesaz]

To be fair though, after looking for it (evidence that scum was able to find JD) I don't see anything to suggest that part of my big post is correct.
So I'm back to the original guess that EJ's kill was due to thinking there had been a lover reference.

[davesaz]

The unnecessary defense of nips bothers me.
I was actually against that wagon when it was all about the lurk.
I was against the VCA only approach.

I don't get how non-mechanical null as a defense fits in to a game which is mechanics heavy. If it ain't a townread then why is any other wagon superior?

[davesaz]

eople ont eally hink hat ropping he irst etter f ords s cummy

[davesaz]

Rolestopper, for the last fucking time.

Yes but why are you so invested in the idea that 50's action worked while the other two didn't?
In a BooneyToonz game most of the roles are going to be the BooneyToonz equivalent/variant. Most of them.

Oh, and the dayvig thing? Pulling someone's chain isn't going to work during their sleeping hours

Just in case it's real and I don't finish these pages: Nips and Chkflip are my biggest suspects. Creature did that thing where he disappears which is his old scum meta.
Oh and fish smells if I'm null. NFW anyone has me as null this game.

[davesaz]

Why does it have to be scum? I see merit in a town! rolestopper targeting A50. Also you're assuming scum would have both abilities.

Also there is evidence renegade exists unless you think Titus and I are scum together fabricating it.

If you're saying that you also gained a modifier then there would need to be a motivator or two renegades. Maybe even a motivated (as a modifier) renegade.
If something else changed (not a modifier change) it could be another gate-like role or something similar. In BT games (which are

not

normal) a mechanic can exist which has nothing to do with any of the roles, modifiers, or variants. Despite the whole 1/2 new/variant roles thing. Actually a straight up inventor that removes stuff instead of adding it would possibly count as just a modified inventor and thus not even be a variant.
Imagine the game has

no boxes

. That's what a BooneyToonz game is.

[davesaz]

@Amrun what is your explanation for Titus getting the message that her abilities are now disabled?

I'm pretty sure that this is not what Titus said. She said (paraphrasing) her ability was now unable to do its original purpose of making neighbors (because of what desperate means).

Pedit: oh, Bambi Jay can be scum too. I'm certainly not seeing anything that I interpret as town.

[davesaz]

Well I don't see anything townie about lynching Nips when Almost cleared him either.

If enchantress (most likely possibility in a BT game which will have most roles as BT roles) 50 did nothing and nips was not cleared.

[davesaz]

In a world which could have a town doc we're not lynching a doc enabler. It self resolves.
Hopefully my memory is correct of who that is. If I've misremembered then let me know.

[davesaz]

If the doctor is town, and we had what amounted to our Cop enabler flip town, then a doctor enabler would be.... *fake gasp* scum!

Am I the only one who sees this?

Wrong assumption.

[davesaz]

No, that's not right. Unfounded.

[davesaz]

No, but I scumread Arron more, and if Drew flips town then the "self-resolving" Joan and Frost are together in a hood alone. And Joan sure as heck isn't gonna solve his alignment.

I would have thought you're experienced enough to know what self resolving is a euphemism for.
They'll end up dead. If not, then we lynch them. Literally no point in lynching someone who will likely get NKd anyway.

[davesaz]

Fml I know whoever replaces Clem has a legit chance of outting my role.

Now I'm sad.

I kinda agree with Chara on the response to the question Titus asked.
I have a different question: why do you think a replacement is likely to immediately out your role?

[davesaz]

1 Boon unique role for free and 2 Variant roles, Nancy.

And

unlimited

use of modifiers which can at times have the same effects as variants when combined.

[davesaz]

Why are you 100% sure enchantress > rolestopper?

Because it's a BooneyToonz game and it's a role likely to appear in BT games.

Stop being so dense.

[davesaz]

And it's my theory, not Titus's. Titus was the leap of faith VCA thing.

[davesaz]

I've probably played in close to half the BT games, and had been researching how to mod one. I know what I'm talking about regarding role choices in these games.
Could it be wrong? Of course, I have no inside info. But I would definitely bet this hand in Hold 'Em.

[davesaz]

Wow, you failed to notice that Clem already said that he rolecopped Bambi Jay before the role got nerfed.

[davesaz]

Why the super deep involvement in discrediting the most likely theory? And defending someone who has done nothing useful?
I question things as town and expect it from others to an extent but not to this absurd extreme.

[davesaz]

It is fair to say that I am trying to claim proficiency and it’s fair to question it. No problem there. Likewise I don’t mean to downplay chk experience . Both are valid interpretations of events.

I agree that lynching possible town is bad but disagree that there is anything that makes nips more likely town than anyone else.

[davesaz]

Did you make a case?

[davesaz]

This is going to be a generalization because right now I don't have time to give examples.

The same things that you're scum reading Drew for, I'm town reading. I don't think scum does those things.

The same things you're town reading Nips for, I'm scum reading. I don't think town does those things. Nips is not a newb. More than a year on the site is past being newb. I have not checked dates so I might be a little off, but I'm pretty sure he was in a game with me very early 2019 and he already had a scumgame from before that one that he was meta read for.

I saw a mechanical error in your reasoning. I will try to respect your desire to stay away from mechanics, but 50 getting refunded means the shot did not go through, meaning there is no clear.

[davesaz]

A sample game with fewer than 10 posts isn't going to tell us much.
The second one has something that this game doesn't, and that's actual opinions on the gamestate that don't involve himself.

[davesaz]

That aboontice game is the one that got me a scummy nom that was then rescinded because one of my partners had cheated. The rage has not subsided.

[davesaz]

I'm also suspicious of Aaron's claim because I recently finished a game with a mafia Doctor Enabler.

Finally someone sees it my way. Particularly with the cop enabler already in play with 3 cops along with a doc? He's the odd one out.

Wouldn't we want the doc enabled even if he is mafia?

[davesaz]

This is going to be a generalization because right now I don't have time to give examples.

The same things that you're scum reading Drew for, I'm town reading. I don't think scum does those things.

The same things you're town reading Nips for, I'm scum reading. I don't think town does those things. Nips is not a newb. More than a year on the site is past being newb. I have not checked dates so I might be a little off, but I'm pretty sure he was in a game with me very early 2019 and he already had a scumgame from before that one that he was meta read for.

I saw a mechanical error in your reasoning. I will try to respect your desire to stay away from mechanics, but 50 getting refunded means the shot did not go through, meaning there is no clear.

Does he not also get refunded if town?

Actions that fail because of a modifier or things like when the target is ascetic are not refunded when they fail. Only block type issues should cause a refund (and then only when the mod considers them refundable, it's not a universal thing).

[davesaz]

It's possible Creature might be scum. The disinterested and bored look could be the old don't know what to do when he's scum thing with a shiny new trying to look town wrapper.

[davesaz]

Actions that fail because of a modifier or things like when the target is ascetic are not refunded when they fail.

Dear Mighty God have mercy on us all, for NOBODY is reading!

I already explained I do get recharged if my action "didn't go through".

This is why I asked what the difference between "not going through" and "action fail" was. It was explained to me that

if my action fails due to my modifier OR if I was blocked/jailed or targeted a Commuter/Hider/Ascetic I get recharged.

If it works like you described then it's being handled incorrectly. That's more of a postgame discussion than now since I can't overrule the mod, but it's wrong.

[davesaz]

Of course I can't rule out scum lying in that case either.

[davesaz]

Who else do you scumread enough to wagon? That should be the question for everyone because we've been stuck in something that looks like a 1v1 by proxy for a RL week or more and that's a red flag that something is wrong.

[davesaz]

V&M has more than 1/5 of the posts in the game on the hydra alone. It may be as many as 1/4 when including slips. Going strictly from memory, an uncomfortable percentage of those are posts that state something incorrect about what has gone before, causing a rehash of prior events. I don't know what this means yet.

[davesaz]

dave, when did you become like this? You were always one of the best in mechanics discussions!

The disagreement (whether I like the definition of what gets refunded or not) is on what the result means. It is most certainly

not a clear

-- at best it's a no result because of the possibility of a block that supercedes loyal/disloyal. Two other people also getting no result type answers when targeting you means that the blocking path is much more likely as a source of a refund.

The alternatives to enchantress require two blocking roles to target slots that they didn't know would even have actions (there are passive roles in role madness, right?) where the enchantress theory requires one blocking role who knows the target has claimed an action. The interpretation with fewer conditions is more likely. The reason I'm good at this part of the game is that the intuitive answer is also the mathematically more likely one, given true information to start with. It's also the reason I go rabid on people who fakeclaim as town because false information results in false answers. And I don't go easy on people who come to the wrong conclusion.

Spoiler: further detail

function p(event) returns a probability the event occurs in the range [0..1]
p(2blocks) = p(block1_exists) * p(block1_targets) * p(block2_exists) * p(block2_targets)
p(enchantress) = p(ench_exists) * p(ench_targets)

Remember that multiplying numbers between 0 and 1 always results in a smaller number for every term that is multiplied.
With p(ench_targets) being a large number approaching 1, the terms in the expression for p(2blocks) have to all be even larger numbers for it to even be close.

Putting that back into normal English, 50JP being targeted is so likely that in order to believe that Titus and Creature were both targeted you would have to believe it was essentially guaranteed that they would both be targeted. Furthermore, though I haven't brought it up yet, both theories are currently assuming that the blocking roles are scum. If the blocking roles were town they would have most likely spoken up. So scum would need 2 blocking roles on the team for the non-enchantress role theory.

[davesaz]

Bambi's role I have seen played as both town and mafia.

I don't want you to straight up out the result. If you're town and Bambi Jay is town we're better off having you look at it using the additional info you have.
Take a look at my last post. In there I suggest that certain roles, that we seem to have seen the results of, are likely to have been caused by scum.

Likely but not certain. If the role has something to do with those events (meaning it is some form of blocking role), you should look at whether the handling of the role is town-like or scum-like. What were Bambi Jay's day 1 reads on those two players (Creature and Titus)? Is it reasonable for Town!Bambi Jay to hold back the information?

If the role doesn't have something to do with the events, then still look at how Bambi Jay handles the role.

[davesaz]

@Dave: was the modifier applied to Titus before or after the night action? I got the impression from Titus' play it was the latter, ergo RB theory only has to account for creature. But I'm stepping into work any second so don't have time to check back.

Titus said at the beginning of night. I actually find that to be a tiny bit suspicious. It implies either a mechanic caused it outside the scope of player roles or it was a day action. Having her blurt it out doesn't make sense as scum though, unless the scum team knows there is a way to tell that the result of her actions is incriminating. Which nets out to still having a TR there but it's less than fully solid.

[davesaz]

Yes that was meant to be a polite way of referring to derping.
It kinda lines up with LNT.

[davesaz]

If a boon special role similar to a regular role exists the boon role will be used.

[davesaz]

If you think it's ok to coast you're mistaken. I loathe lynching claimed roles but it isn't off the table when they refuse to play.

[davesaz]

This is mostly going from memory. It is explicitly not an alignment list, and not in order within the categories.

Actively trying to solve

50 Judge Powers
Haggle
Venus and Mars
Titus
chkflip
davesaz
Doctor Drew
Chara

Kinda trying

Chemist1442
Amrun
AaronFrost
Adorable
The Fonz

Barely trying

BrightEyedFish
Bambi Jay
RCEnigma

Avoiding any attempt to solve

Creature
Joan of Arc
Emperor flippyNips

[davesaz]

I still don't want Nips lynched but with this, what am I supposed to do? You all want day 2 to end most of you are gathering there.

Sigh.

Bro whut, I'm definitely atleast kinda trying.

That first one doesn't look like trying to me.

[davesaz]

Slightly more than 4 days btw.
If you don't like the current options, what should you do?

[davesaz]

When there is a more town-motivated alternative?

BTW I don't think I'm seeing the types of things that a newly minted n3 vig should be doing. Anyone care to discuss that?

[davesaz]

Who are your scumreads x2?
I can’t really say what I mean obviously. Are you doing the things you would do if you had a vig? You aren’t doing what I would do...

[davesaz]

The x2 was Bambi & Drew (the two people who had been posting). I was on my mobile device and didn't want to type as much.

Drew, updated list plz. All in one post plz.

[davesaz]

I don't think chk's proposed deal makes any continued sense if he now thinks Drew is town.
It was specifically drew today for your lynch tomorrow.

[davesaz]

How much trust do you have in the townreads of your townreads?