Baton Pass [Game Over!]

[Celestial Coordinates]

If people are going to knee jerk refuse us for round 1 baton then I'm going to hold off on playing until the round 1 baton is over.

[Celestial Coordinates]

As an additional note, if we're not planning all the baton passes as a group together we're wasting the potential town equity of this setup.

[Celestial Coordinates]

As an additional note, if we're not planning all the baton passes as a group together we're wasting the potential town equity of this setup.

Let's not do this please

we're 100% doing it.

How does it give more info exactly?

I'm not giving up on the ability to more reliably eliminate scum in the name of "information"
you deduce information by the players who want other players removed.

[Celestial Coordinates]

if scum aren't terrible theyll 100% kill nacho over rc
rc is negative utility if used correctly

do you have data to support this hypothesis

[Celestial Coordinates]

Best case scenario, build a townblock and all agree to pass to each other first, then free for all

if you're going to do this then you're out of the chain.
this setup is ludicrously townsided if we play it properly: town essentially only needs 5 correct townreads to win the game if we play it mathematically.
we give scum a billion times more maneuvering room if we allow them to control who lives and who dies and essentially give them control over more nightkills

[Celestial Coordinates]

i think this entire question is really stupid because we're going to get shot n1 if we're not the original baton and as a result the baton is a meaningless question and we're better off deciding which 3 players we're removing in the first phase.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Ok RC leave us out then, I'm not letting you leash me.

if all the other players who understand how mafia works agree with me that it's incredibly anti-town not to have a lynch chain agreed on support me will you go along or are you just refusing to play this in the optimal way for town

[Celestial Coordinates]

literally the only baton pass decision is whether it's me or not and since the risk of losing to me is more salient than the risk of losing because I couldn't influence multiple day phases, I don't expect to convince this game of it and I'm not putting the energy into it since I don't count my hydra w/r anyway

i'll hammer whoever gets L-1

who is everyone scumreading thus far

[Celestial Coordinates]

i don't think that nacho is a carry by weight of his reads, i think that he is very +town equity in terms of the role he plays but i don't think that his reads are several stdevs above mean

[Celestial Coordinates]

Basically what RC is suggesting is that instead of passing based on our reads we use baton pass mechanic as a way of having 2 additional lynches.

it's a no brainer decision

we get 3 lynches for every scum nightkill

[Celestial Coordinates]

i think we can agree on who passes to who and who is left out and lynch anyone who deviates from it.
if we can't do that because town are playing anti-town then this game is functionally unwinnable for town anyway.
this game is balanced off of the assumption that the day phases balance as 3 lynches.

[Celestial Coordinates]

it's really not hard for scum to take advantage of the people with bad reads and hide among the people with bad reads if we allow that to be a possibility.
individuals are going to be wrong this game, the group consensus doesn't have to be.

[Celestial Coordinates]

My town meta vs scum meta is painfully obvious and I will only support people who will become blatantly obvtown. Shoshin has basically the same meta style differences as me so she is really the only other one who I would support

Enter can become blatantly obvtown.

Nancy can too unless you suspect RC will be writing her posts for her.

I will probably be away for a few days, so it will probably be RC posting until I get back. I’m probably leaving later tonight.

If it helps, the only time I was in a scum hydra with RC was NDP and I wrote all of my posts.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Nancy before you go, any reads?

I haven’t fully read the game but I’m liking you, Dann and GDGW so far.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I will say, if you can correctly read me by what little I’ve posted before I leave, please don’t allow this game to become Arch 2.0. Thanks.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't think Shoshin is a likely nightkill.

Who are the likeliest nightkills in your eyes? Celestial and Nacho?

If no one protects us, we are very likely getting killed. RC is almost always targeted N1. YGM was an exception.

[Celestial Coordinates]

i support Shoshin for holding the baton

this is bitmap, not sure what GIF thinks

I don't.
I don't think Shoshin is a likely nightkill.

then i wanna give it to RC

It would be really nice to get a chance to play. I hope the day doesn’t end before I get back in any case.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Votecount 1.8

Celestial Coordinates(3)

~ Gay Dance Gone Wrong⁸⁶, Shoshin¹⁸, Dannflor²⁶

Oversoul(2)

~ Oversoul¹⁶, Sakura Hana³⁸

Nachomamma8(2)

~ Wisdom³⁵, Oh³⁷

Something_Smart(1)

~ gameplay506¹⁶

Gay Dance Gone Wrong(1)

~ PMysterious⁴

Cephrir(1)

~ Cephrir³²


Not Voting (5): YukzYuk¹⁴, Goodies⁰, Nachomamma8⁴, Celestial Coordinates¹⁷, Something_Smart³¹

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-10-14 08:04:59)

I was going to ask if we can vote for ourselves but obviously we can.

VOTE: Celestial Coordinates

[Celestial Coordinates]

If no one protects us

I think it's slightly town indicative to be unaware of the setup?

I haven’t fully read anything yet and I haven’t been able to reach RC yet.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Oh, just read the setup. Oof no town protectives.

[Celestial Coordinates]

maybe it's just a dumb tell not a town tell

In this case it’s both.

I put us on V/LA. RC is free to change it but I don’t want us to get prodded.

[Celestial Coordinates]

If no one protects us

I think it's slightly town indicative to be unaware of the setup?

Definitely don't agree with this.

Why? I might be wrong about how AI it is but I've always consider scum more likely to be hyper aware of the setup.

If Nancy has been signed up for an open game for two weeks and doesn't care about the setup enough to read it, then it probably isn't too important to her. If she rolls scum, don't think it becomes super important for her to read the setup now when she's planning on posting and leaving for a while shortly after.

This really isn’t accurate. While I can derp as any alignment and I have, I would be aware as something as basic as the setup. In Gay Dance, I derped as scum wrt to not knowing who the lynches were and why. I was also extremely sick att. So, yeah, for me derping like AtEing isn’t AI but scum!me would most likely have paid attention to this.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I like Shoshin's opening as well, don't think it's incredibly likely for scum to start a tilt on Wisdom for the reasons that she has so far.

I don’t think scum!Shoshin votes us here without pressure. I’ve played with town/scum and SK!Shoshin. RC usually catches scum!Shoshin, so it probably wouldn’t be in her interest to vote us here, unless town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Btw Dann why do you feel like scum this game?

I was about to ask you the same question funnily enough

Is this going to be an MG redux? How is Dann scummy here? @Oh

[Celestial Coordinates]

literally the only baton pass decision is whether it's me or not and since the risk of losing to me is more salient than the risk of losing because I couldn't influence multiple day phases, I don't expect to convince this game of it and I'm not putting the energy into it since I don't count my hydra w/r anyway

Happy scumday

Oh thanks, didn’t even realize it.

[Celestial Coordinates]

This really isn’t accurate. While I can derp as any alignment and I have, I would be aware as something as basic as the setup. In Gay Dance, I derped as scum wrt to not knowing who the lynches were and why. I was also extremely sick att. So, yeah, for me derping like AtEing isn’t AI but scum!me would most likely have paid attention to this.

I'm not understanding your point here. You derped as scum in Gay Mafia similar to the derp here and yet the derp here is alignment indicative? Or are you saying just because you made the mistake recently you probably wouldn't do it again?

How did you get that from my post? I very clearly stated that while derping is NAI for me, scum!me probably wouldn’t derp about something as basic as the setup. In GD, my derp wasn’t setup related. I just stopped paying attention due to all of the massive hyper posting and being sick, so my point is that the kind of derping I did in GD was NAI. I would do that as town too but I very much doubt scum!me would derp about the basic setup, if that wasn’t clear.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don’t think scum!Shoshin votes us here without pressure. I’ve played with town/scum and SK!Shoshin. RC usually catches scum!Shoshin, so it probably wouldn’t be in her interest to vote us here, unless town.

If someone is afraid of RC then they probably would find a reason to vote him sooner or later - better to have him around for another night than to provoke.

I like Shoshin's opening as well, don't think it's incredibly likely for scum to start a tilt on Wisdom for the reasons that she has so far.

I don’t think scum!Shoshin votes us here without pressure. I’ve played with town/scum and SK!Shoshin. RC usually catches scum!Shoshin, so it probably wouldn’t be in her interest to vote us here, unless town.

Disagree with this logic.

But if we get the baton, then scum!Shoshin couldn’t kill us and my point is that she voted us

without pressure

.

And unlike me (as anyone familiar with MG can attest), RC is pretty good at reading Shoshin, so in essence, scum!Shoshin would be making one helluva gambit to not only vote us but remain on our wagon, so yeah, if she suspiciously jimps off and/or tries to divert it, then I would obviously rethink this.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I meant that they don't result in the person getting most votes dying
Anywayy since RVS seems to be off the table we can do some RQS and uhh ask some really personal questions and bond and uhh win this way

Why RQS over RVS?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Top of the morning.

I anticipate that at some point somebody will try to control the entire baton chain. I wish to suggest that, at least for now, we not do this and instead play in the spirit of the setup. Get some organic information.

I'm not sure that specifically "going for the baton" is a strategy scum will undertake or care about.

That is all at this time.

Why not? I think that’s entirely NAI.

[Celestial Coordinates]

What about me feels like scum, Enter?

Not me.

Oh, interesting.

I assume neither of you are ever going to sign your posts?

Where are your reads at currently?

Probably Ank, what do I win?

[Celestial Coordinates]

To be clear, I prefer myself for baton over RC. I just figured nobody would want to protect me over RC so I voted Celestial.

We can vote you next right? Isn’t the the two players who don’t get it, get lynched?

[Celestial Coordinates]

At the beginning of each day phase, the town votes on the first person to be the Baton Holder.
Once a Baton Holder has been decided upon by majority vote (or plurality, if no majority is reached by deadline), all discussion ceases.
The Baton Holder will then private message me "Pass: X" to another player of their choosing. The player chosen will then pass to another player who has not yet been selected, and so on until only two players have not been passed to. Each pass will be revealed publicly as it happens.

The last two players who are not selected are eliminated, and their alignments are revealed.

[Celestial Coordinates]

We're voting for who is going to be bulletproof tonight, Nancy.

I realize that Dann and we’ll almost certainly be the N1 NK unless bp. You should know that.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Nancy's town
VOTE: CC

RC has a reputation for being killed on N1.

I don't.

Sakura, Shoshin are my top tr.

If the baton doesn’t get passed to them, you all are gamethrowing.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Nancy's town
VOTE: CC

RC has a reputation for being killed on N1.

I don't.

Sakura, Shoshin are my top tr.

If the baton doesn’t get passed to them, you all are gamethrowing.

I guess hydraing with RC is rubbing off.

That’s how I usually talk in games. I’m not RC’s clone tyvm.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Top of the morning.

I anticipate that at some point somebody will try to control the entire baton chain. I wish to suggest that, at least for now, we not do this and instead play in the spirit of the setup. Get some organic information.

I'm not sure that specifically "going for the baton" is a strategy scum will undertake or care about.

That is all at this time.

Why not? I think that’s entirely NAI.

It kind of seems like you're agreeing with me here.

You’re saying you don’t think scum would try to get the baton and I’m asking why wouldn’t they?

[Celestial Coordinates]

If the baton doesn’t get passed to them, you all are gamethrowing.

Can we not be like this?

Why shouldn’t I want my two strongest tr to get the baton, especially since I don’t know where the hell RC is and I’m leaving in approximately a few hours?

[Celestial Coordinates]

As an additional note, if we're not planning all the baton passes as a group together we're wasting the potential town equity of this setup.

Let's not do this please

Why wouldn’t we? As long as one person isn’t just overriding everyone it potentially gives more information + greater accuracy.

Leashing people is a good way to remove responsibility for the action from the player making the action.

It’s not about leashing it’s just about everyone voicing their opinion.

I think regardless of how we play this game, we will have more than enough opinions voiced.

Best case scenario, build a townblock and all agree to pass to each other first, then free for all

if you're going to do this then you're out of the chain.
this setup is ludicrously townsided if we play it properly: town essentially only needs 5 correct townreads to win the game if we play it mathematically.
we give scum a billion times more maneuvering room if we allow them to control who lives and who dies and essentially give them control over more nightkills

Sure. But do you trust the aggregate town reads?

i think this entire question is really stupid because we're going to get shot n1 if we're not the original baton and as a result the baton is a meaningless question and we're better off deciding which 3 players we're removing in the first phase.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but I refuse to recognize "we will be shot n1" reasoning as any sort of viable argument.

Basically what RC is suggesting is that instead of passing based on our reads we use baton pass mechanic as a way of having 2 additional lynches.

I don't think anyone is opposed to this?

Yeah universal scumreads are never town

That's a silly counterargument. The real question is whether universal scumreads are more likely to be right than the aggregation of a bunch of individual townreads.

Considering mafia is a viable game for either town or scum, the latter seems to be a better shot than the former.

And it's not a silly counterargument.


================================================

Alright, I'm confused and I'm not sure if anyone else is either, so I'm taking a break from catching up and I'd like to clear this up:

Is the proposition that we aggregate reads lists, agree on several universal scum reads, and pass the baton to everyone else? If so, I am opposed to this.

Is the proposition that we all voice our opinions and discuss each player in turn, but leave the decision ultimately to the player with the baton? I am not entirely opposed to this, but I think I have a third (maybe better?) proposition;

Does anyone feel strongly reading another player? If so, how viable would it be to make a chain of players by having all post which players in this game they feel comfortable reading (and if some feel comfortable with none, then give them certain players who have a tendency to spew). Then we build a chain, where each player in the sequence is responsible for reading the player after them -- if they trust them as town, they pass the baton, if they do not trust them as town, they skip that player in the chain, and we will come back at the end of the day. Responsibility, obviously, would not solely rely on the player with the baton, I expect everyone will continue to voice their opinion throughout the game and assist the baton holder (regardless of what I say, but also I think this is beneficial to the game).

Oh good, I see RC posted.

[Celestial Coordinates]

People I will never support for first round baton:
RC hydra
Ankamius hydra
Nacho
Wisdom

People I will support for baton:
Myself
Shoshin

People I will never support for first round baton:
RC hydra
Ankamius hydra
Nacho
Wisdom

People I will support for baton:
Myself
Shoshin

votes are good if you supertownread someone and want both to save them and enable them to choose the next person to save

aka dont save rc

If people are going to knee jerk refuse us for round 1 baton then I'm going to hold off on playing until the round 1 baton is over.

Just play the game no one is even doing this yet

aren't they?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Ugh I dont know I just dont want this to become a game where RC is the primary point of contention those games are the absolute worst

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

the path to having that not happen isn't the one that was being followed this game even before i started posting

[Celestial Coordinates]

I did not even think our reads were that good at the end of D1 in magical girls upick, plus RC saying like 10 million times we were going to be the N1 NK, and yet, we did get shot, except due to our super unkillable ability... we didnt die.

actually the last thing i posted in d1 was that the entire wagon of 9 players was town and that entire wagon of 9 players was in fact town so...

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think that OH has a fairly high probability of being scum trying to push town to do basically anything besides the obvious correct thing.

At the very least I think it's a fact that they have been pushing scum wincondition harder than anyone else has to the point that we're currently at.

[Celestial Coordinates]

OH can you compile which posts were made by which constituent heads?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Ankamius you feel like a caricature of yourself.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Not just any town, we will die tonight like nearly every game RC isn’t protected. You guys should know this. Do I really need to list examples?

Only way we possibly won’t is of our reads are really off but RC also gets targeted when he’s wrong, like in Arch where RC tribute hydra allowed us to die.

[Celestial Coordinates]

how do those of you who aren't unreasonable about this issue not get frustrated every time you see it happening?

i just want to play mafia and not Meta Connect Four.

Because they actually see the post for what it is instead of just skimming and then assuming it's their worst nightmare?

Ankamius you feel like a caricature of yourself.

Not Ankamius.

That's even worse?

Since when have you been an information slave to the point of knee jerk sacrificing massive chunks of town equity at the altar of information?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Ankamius you feel like a caricature of yourself.

If Ankamius is town, she will probably obvtown it by D2. Oh’s a null for me rn.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Why does Sakura get the baton again?

Directed at CC

Shoshin and Sakura are obvtown here.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Like, I was pretty clear that I wanted town consensus scumreads (that i would obviously contribute to, probably disproportionately, but) and you knee jerk were like NAH NOT LETTING YOU LEASH ME RC.
Every time the argument about how protecting a player that isn't someone scum wants to nightkill comes up you keeping being like 'NAH BUT TOWN ARE GONNA DIE ANYWAY.'

and then we have to waste a lynch on you

You

have

to?

We can't do rigid chain creation. Someone with an ego will break it and then we'll waste the entire rest of the game arguing about whether to lynch them for it.

Or we could lynch them. We're lynching 10 players anyway during this game. I have no problem with potentially having to lynch a townie to make sure that scum have no special control over the lynches.

Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?

I'm not supporting any of this.

You were the one saying dumb shit about how we need to let scum control the direction of the baton pass for 'information'

[Celestial Coordinates]

Not just any town, we will die tonight like nearly every game RC isn’t protected. You guys should know this. Do I really need to list examples?

Only way we possibly won’t is of our reads are really off but RC also gets targeted when he’s wrong, like in Arch where RC tribute hydra allowed us to die.

I don't need examples, I'm telling you that if you're town, you're town. Which is just like everyone else here. One of the town players will die night 1. If we protect you, then there is WIFOM about whether or not you're scum tomorrow, and then we have to waste a lynch on you when it could be used on someone better.

This was an awkward place to ask this question.

Are you trying to talk to me, Dann?

I don't know who you even is.

I am trying to talk to Enter.

Answer the question instead of commenting on awkward placement.

You're aggressive this game.

Why are you pushing for reads from me right now?

Are you not interested in the conversation at hand?

I think you don't fully understand my suggestion, then?

I'm not trying to take advantage of MS players as "meta-geniuses," I'm trying to apply greater responsibility to players. This isn't a ploy to make town find town, this is outing scum by making them take responsibility for their actions in greater regard than usual.

It's exactly the same as playing the setup naively (i.e. pass to your townread) except that you've assigned everyone a meta padawan for some reason

Explain, please, how the way you want to play the game is executively different? Give me examples of how your idea of how the game goes down differs from my idea of how the game goes down/

Ank, aren’t you forgetting, I’m in this game too? Iow, you spec argument about WIFOM wrt RC scum would make that pretty much a non-issue, so that’s not great reasoning.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Or we could lynch them. We're lynching 10 players anyway during this game. I have no problem with potentially having to lynch a townie to make sure that scum have no special control over the lynches.

I won't agree to this and I'm probably not alone. :hitoshrug:

It would be extremely easy for scum to arrange the baton pass order to both make sure they don't lose their members and make sure it doesn't clearly point to them if they want to.
We're losing an absolutely insane amount of town win equity if we do anything besides have two set lynch targets and kill anyone who passes to them.

[Celestial Coordinates]

That's even worse?

Since when have you been an information slave to the point of knee jerk sacrificing massive chunks of town equity at the altar of information?

Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?

I'm not supporting any of this.

I can’t speak for RC but you do tend to hard push info lynches. Are you disputing this?

[Celestial Coordinates]

why sign up for this game if your goal is to destroy its central conceit ugh

Town gets all the advantages of the central mechanic if we do it this way

I don't particularly want to give scum advantages and freedom to control the game for the sake of 'playing to its central concept'?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I did not even think our reads were that good at the end of D1 in magical girls upick, plus RC saying like 10 million times we were going to be the N1 NK, and yet, we did get shot, except due to our super unkillable ability... we didnt die.

Sakura is obvtown here. Her thought process, reads etc are entirely different than in BoR. You agree with this, don’t you @Wisdom?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Anyone with any mafia experience knows this won't go through in execution no matter how much everyone agrees to it.

i don't think it would be especially hard to make it happen.
in fact i think in most lobbies it would be easy, just that this game has a lot of people who have big ideas

Yes.

So, what? It's against code to ever let my slot go to endgame is what you're saying and this entire argument is coded you refusing to let me influence the game at all because I might be scum?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'm really unhappy if OH is anything but scum. Hopefully they're just scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Yes, I'm disputing this very much so.

Please quote where I did any of the "information slaving" you're accusing me of.

Your slot is arguing against the obvious correct play of having 3 lynches in favor of 'having more information and knowing who chose who.'

that's information slaving.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I’m thinking Oh may be town here, even if I disagree with them but it does ping me slightly that they’re ignoring my impact in the game but the thought process reads townie. RC may disagree.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'm really unhappy if OH is anything but scum. Hopefully they're just scum.

It sucks to have to realize that in the end you carry no more weight than most other town players, I know.

Funny that you make a dig at my weight in the lobby right after making a post about how I

ABSOLUTELY MUST

be lynched before endgame because I'm the true endboss of mafiascum.net

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'm really unhappy if OH is anything but scum. Hopefully they're just scum.

It sucks to have to realize that in the end you carry no more weight than most other town players, I know.

Funny that you make a dig at my weight in the lobby right after making a post about how I

ABSOLUTELY MUST

be lynched before endgame because I'm the true endboss of mafiascum.net

[Celestial Coordinates]

i scumread OS starting now

[Celestial Coordinates]

it may be boring but establishing that we're going to actually lynch certain scummy people as opposed to let scum make sure that the lynches fall on town is more +town equity than any amount of sorting

Find three lobbies where this went through in practice not theory and I'll dismiss my thought of you as someone who plays a lot of mafia but has no clue what is actually viable as far as player agreement.

And no, it's not against code to let your slot go to end game, it's against code to insta-bulletproof your slot because while RC's reads are good, your slot has been toxic and egotistical this game and more of that is not going to push a solid town together.

I literally can't come up with an example where we had an organized approach to the game from the start and people fucked off and did their own thing without being scum pretending to be town.
There was FG's dance game where we decided the lynch order before any lynches went through and won because of it.

your slot has been toxic and egotistical

clarify this

[Celestial Coordinates]

Guys, is it possible to avoid a MG Krazy/RC redux?

Oh is just very wrong in not assuming we are the most likely N1 NK.

I haven’t confidently sorted them yet but I don’t want this to wind up in a battle of egos.

I am suspicious that Oh wouldn’t want us protected but Ank doesn’t sound here like she did in Timeshift, so still a null for me.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Quote me saying this.

Quote me saying "in favor of having more information" somewhere. Anywhere.

Also, quote how my style of playing the game removes the ability to have 3 lynches. Please explain that as well.

You're grossly misrepresenting me right now which is why I'm asking you to quote me. I think you're seeing what you believe to be opposition to everything you're doing and then you're assuming the stance I'm taking instead of legitimately trying to understand it.

Ok RC leave us out then, I'm not letting you leash me.

if all the other players who understand how mafia works agree with me that it's incredibly anti-town not to have a lynch chain agreed on support me will you go along or are you just refusing to play this in the optimal way for town

Yeah and what happens when it inevitably doesn't get followed

Even if you leave me out, SOMEONE will break the chain and then it just fucks everything up, and you can't even really call them scum since town are more likely to do that than scum is

Even barring that, I've seen so many towns fall apart from focusing almost entirely on mechanics that I really can't stand behind strategies like this even if it's "optimal"

Just play mafia and build strong townblocks, then use the information from that to narrow down the scumteam

It's better for my sanity that way

And no I'm not going to be leashed to a target, I will choose someone I think is town because I'm not interested in the entire game being about the setup

This shit is how towns get to endgame and realize that there really isn't enough there to reliably fish out the last scum.

It's a TRAP.

Are these both Ankamius?
You're arguing against having set baton pass lynches: true or false?

I don't want you lynched before endgame because you're good at scum.

I want you lynched before endgame because the way you're playing the game is generally toxic, counter-productive to any semblance of approach to Socratic discussion, and overall anti-town.

Please cite a post that's toxic or anti-town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

If RC scumreads me this game pretty sure it means his hydra is scum

RC can’t be wrong?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Anyone with any mafia experience knows this won't go through in execution no matter how much everyone agrees to it.

i don't think it would be especially hard to make it happen.
in fact i think in most lobbies it would be easy, just that this game has a lot of people who have big ideas

Yes.

So, what? It's against code to ever let my slot go to endgame is what you're saying and this entire argument is coded you refusing to let me influence the game at all because I might be scum?

Find three lobbies where this went through in practice not theory and I'll dismiss my thought of you as someone who plays a lot of mafia but has no clue what is actually viable as far as player agreement.

And no, it's not against code to let your slot go to end game, it's against code to insta-bulletproof your slot because while RC's reads are good, your slot has been toxic and egotistical this game and more of that is not going to push a solid town together.

Oh, do you or do you not think that we have the highest NK equity as town? Forget the ego thing and your issues with RC, just answer that please.

[Celestial Coordinates]

By the way I didn't even expect to get baton D1 because I assumed that in the end a mixture of my scum game and the fact that a ton of people in this lobby respect me less than my stats should indicate I was never getting it. I don't count my hydra winrate or care about it enough for it to be worth it to me to go through the struggle of getting people on the same page.

I'm good with Shoshin as well.

I think that Shoshin is 100% not going to die N1.

[Celestial Coordinates]

VOTE: Shoshin

This is the slot I'd like to see not die the most.

I'm good with Shoshin as well.

Shoshin definitely shouldn’t die but statistically, we’re still the most likely to get shot.

[Celestial Coordinates]

You've already made multiple posts about how you need to be protected day 1 to prevent you from dying night 1 indicating you believe your slot carries more weight than any other slot. You have accused people of game throwing for disagreeing with you. You've claimed you hope we're scum because we disagree with you.

I have accused no one of gamethrowing, though I do think that it is largely gamethrowing to not have a baton pass consensus.
I hope you're scum for a variety of reasons, mostly you saying that if we survive D1 because of the baton pass we have to be lynched the next day.

Our slot is factually going to die N1. I have not failed to be nightkilled N1 in a single large theme this year. Hydra or not.
I think that I'm good enough to be tons of +equity to town if kept alive. I think that reputation and statistical measures of performance also show that.
I'm not going to claim otherwise for the sake of avoiding a conflict with you.

Knowing that I am town it is clearly very beneficial to keep me alive. If I were playing solo I would absolutely force the baton pass onto me. I'm not.

RC, what's your read on Wisdom?

I'm much more interested in resolving these conflicts than scumhunting right now.

[Celestial Coordinates]

By the way I didn't even expect to get baton D1 because I assumed that in the end a mixture of my scum game and the fact that a ton of people in this lobby respect me less than my stats should indicate I was never getting it. I don't count my hydra winrate or care about it enough for it to be worth it to me to go through the struggle of getting people on the same page.

I'm good with Shoshin as well.

I think that Shoshin is 100% not going to die N1.

No, between us and her, no but if we’re protected, she might. Pretty much whomever scum views as their biggest killable threat.

It really sucks that we can’t protect us and our strongest tr.

[Celestial Coordinates]

These conflicts are boring. You're obviously the most likely to get shot, unless you're scum, in which case I'm probably most likely to get shot. This isn't worth wasting time on.

This kind of thing tends to fester unless proactively dealt with.

You can't do both?

I suppose that I could be doing both but I'm not doing both because I have a specific scumread in mind and I don't feel like pursuing other people until I spend more time on them.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Half of the Oh vs. Celestial back-and-forth is each one of them prescribing the other player's hydra posts to the wrong player and then the other one getting mad about the misrep.

For the record I did start by asking one of them to actually list which posts were made by which heads.

Gee, I wonder how that problem could have been averted.

owo

-Raybells

[Celestial Coordinates]

it may be boring but establishing that we're going to actually lynch certain scummy people as opposed to let scum make sure that the lynches fall on town is more +town equity than any amount of sorting

I, also, want to lynch certain scummy people and intend to do everything i can to make sure scum get lynched? I'm not sure how your idea is so polar to any other idea in practice?

Find three lobbies where this went through in practice not theory and I'll dismiss my thought of you as someone who plays a lot of mafia but has no clue what is actually viable as far as player agreement.

And no, it's not against code to let your slot go to end game, it's against code to insta-bulletproof your slot because while RC's reads are good, your slot has been toxic and egotistical this game and more of that is not going to push a solid town together.

I literally can't come up with an example where we had an organized approach to the game from the start and people fucked off and did their own thing without being scum pretending to be town.
There was FG's dance game where we decided the lynch order before any lynches went through and won because of it.

I'm not contesting what you agreed on. I'm contesting the "we will lynch anyone who varies from consensus."

your slot has been toxic and egotistical

clarify this

You've already made multiple posts about how you need to be protected day 1 to prevent you from dying night 1 indicating you believe your slot carries more weight than any other slot. You have accused people of game throwing for disagreeing with you. You've claimed you hope we're scum because we disagree with you.

I said, not passing the baton to Shoshin and Sakura would be gamethrowing. You’re not getting my point, it’s a fact town!RC usually dies N1 if not protected and I know you know this.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Guys, is it possible to avoid a MG Krazy/RC redux?

Oh is just very wrong in not assuming we are the most likely N1 NK.

I haven’t confidently sorted them yet but I don’t want this to wind up in a battle of egos.

I am suspicious that Oh wouldn’t want us protected but Ank doesn’t sound here like she did in Timeshift, so still a null for me.

I'm not assuming you are not the most likely N1 NK if you are town. Please quote me assuming this or saying this.

Alright then, at least we’ve got that straight. So knowing this then, why are you still opposed to us being protected?

Perhaps I should ask what your read on me is individually? Because you keep pushing this narrative of RC surviving N1 scum possibility or something.

If you tr me here, than that shouldn’t be a concern for you.

[Celestial Coordinates]

In post 184, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
If people are going to knee jerk refuse us for round 1 baton then I'm going to hold off on playing until the round 1 baton is over.

I don't see your problem with this.
I don't care who gets the round 1 baton pass if it's not us because if we don't get it we're dying.
I instead wanted to talk about scumreads because those actually matter.

In post 248, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
i think we can agree on who passes to who and who is left out and lynch anyone who deviates from it.
if we can't do that because town are playing anti-town then this game is functionally unwinnable for town anyway.
this game is balanced off of the assumption that the day phases balance as 3 lynches.

I still believe this.
Even if we treat the baton passes as functionally lynches and the setup as triple day town's win equity is still ~15%
If we don't do that, it's even lower than that which is no bueno.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Townreads on Sakura Hana are toxic because the game is far more enjoyable for everyone if Sakura Hana is being scumread for stupid reasons and she's raging because of it. obviously.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Oh, do you or do you not think that we have the highest NK equity as town? Forget the ego thing and your issues with RC, just answer that please.

I think you don't understand how protection in this game works.

Also, what "ego thing?"

*sigh* You and RC butting heads and allowing that to influence your reads.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Townreads on Sakura Hana are toxic because the game is far more enjoyable for everyone if Sakura Hana is being scumread for stupid reasons and she's raging because of it. obviously.

I’m thoroughly confused by this. You mean more people will tr her for that?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I agree that Goodies's entrance posts was several points more likely to be scum than town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Alright.

I can work with RC.

RC - Ank and I had a discussion prior to the game - Nancy has a relatively large resume of misreading Ank because she thinks she had a strong meta on her regardless of on multiple occasions reading her improperly. Partially for that reason, I wasn't signing, because I wanted to help get the idea out of her head that she could read Ank.

Sorry for calling you toxic, the swap between RC and Nancy threw me for a loop and I was only half-aware when y'all swapped - Trying to respond to RC posts over Nancy posts got difficult. Our slot is honestly just trying to deal with Nancy as soon as possible and then ignore her after we both grudgingly accept that we aren't likely to get along. As for which posts are mine -- pretty much everything after the second catch-up post is mine, and after the original scuffle this morning between you and Ank, she hasn't responded to your slot yet.

When have I misread Ank?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I have a much better BoP on Ank then she has on me.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I have NO intention of butting heads w/ RC. He's relatively reasonable and I intend to be civil w/ him like I am in every other game.

If you read MG, you’d understand.

[Celestial Coordinates]

hi nsg

[Celestial Coordinates]

I swear this site makes my grammar and spelling worse.

I used to constantly use big words and talk down to people before I played MS enough to learn how to interact with people properly.
@OH it's fine I felt like you were taking jabs at me for being me wrt wanting a policy lynch on me while refusing to take my reads at all seriously and essentially just setting me up to be nightkilled in a bad way. Not, like, I want someone else to be protected more but it felt like you just specifically wanted me to be a viable kill.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Gameplay was my secret scumread but since Nancy and Dannflor already expressed that as well, I'll out it as well.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I mean. I really just didn't have the mental energy to try to self townspew to the point that I'd feel like I deserved to be protected so I was just gonna not bother with that whole thing.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I did not even think our reads were that good at the end of D1 in magical girls upick, plus RC saying like 10 million times we were going to be the N1 NK, and yet, we did get shot, except due to our super unkillable ability... we didnt die.

I also did intentionally bait the nightkill in other ways with regards to my approach to the game, notably.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Oh is also town and now I have to go pack.

[Celestial Coordinates]

...Enter and Dannflor?

You as well but Nancy sent me a discord scumreading them at about the same time.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Sakura's the universal townread I'm struggling with

I don't

scumread

her. I just don't think I've seen enough to be like gung ho yeah she's town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think {gameplay nacho goodies} are the 3 people that I like least so far.

[Celestial Coordinates]

It's possible that what I'm seeing in Nacho is him struggling to get back into mafia (or even just mafia on MS) so I'm reluctant to go after him right now but he feels like he's pretty typical scumposting right now in the sense that there's something missing from his posting that I would expect to be there from town him (moreso knowing Nacho specifically.)

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think {gameplay nacho goodies} are the 3 people that I like least so far.

This is roughly where I'm at, except with the inclusion of Wisdom as well. Why do you disagree with me on him?

i shrug at wisdom. i have no read on wisdom rn.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think {gameplay nacho goodies} are the 3 people that I like least so far.

This is roughly where I'm at, except with the inclusion of Wisdom as well. Why do you disagree with me on him?

i shrug at wisdom. i have no read on wisdom rn.

What do you make of the posts I pointed to?

i read them and it doesn't change my shrug

[Celestial Coordinates]

Then what are you comfortable with? What do you want to see town doing if not suggesting who to kill.

Suspicion is fine, I'm just a bit alarmed that we're already saying things like "we should lynch X and Y today."

I think it's implicitly stated that these comments are "as things are" and open to change if something happens that should change them.

[Celestial Coordinates]

RC have you actually ever been lynched?

I've gone through periods of getting lynched a lot. I haven't gotten lynched so much this year. I believe once.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Then what are you comfortable with? What do you want to see town doing if not suggesting who to kill.

Suspicion is fine, I'm just a bit alarmed that we're already saying things like "we should lynch X and Y today."

I think it's implicitly stated that these comments are "as things are" and open to change if something happens that should change them.

I guess.

People exaggerate a lot in mafia and I typically am overly honest if anything. It throws me for a loop.

People aren't even always exaggerating.

Regardless, people overrate their own abilities and if you portray things accurately and fairly then their own personal reads won't be put to the same accuracy and fairness and will never be as enticing.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I have a solid # of townreads right now.

[Celestial Coordinates]

VOTE: Shoshin

why?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't want to die N1.

Do you not agree that the odds of you dying N1 are significantly lower than ours?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Yes, but I also just hate the idea of me dying instead of you.

This is a very strange thing to say.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'm not into the idea of sacrificing myself for your sake.

You've been framing this in terms of odds, which I was too at first, but I think the more relevant question is who town would rather have alive after D1. I think my D2 reads are not worse than yours, on average, and I think I'm more likely to win for town at LYLO than you. You're welcome to disagree, as I'm sure you will.

I don't think this idea that my reads are worse D2 onwards is based in reality except in terms of late game replacements.
If anything, my D2 lynches are my best and I don't have a large enough sample size for later than that.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I find it very difficult that you believe that this is a pro-town decision unless you're uncertain of your read on me.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I hadn't thought through how the mechanic worked. I was thinking in terms of who scum would choose to kill, as if trying to predict a doctor, instead of who is most valuable to the town after D1, which is the more relevant issue.

I'm very skeptical of you believing that you ever get the baton over me unless it's what scum want.

You're the one who told me your reads at LYLO weren't great, and that your reads were best on D1. You told me that.

Ok, and Nadal's not that great on grass courts and his play is the best on clay courts.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I didn't think I'd get it either, but then a few people said they'd vote for me, so now I'm going to try.

Your response to this shouldn't be to see it as an opportunity but to think critically about why scum want you to have the baton pass today since it's reasonably obvious that there's at least 4 town on my wagon.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think it's reasonably obvious that the people who want me to have the baton are also town.

Sorry, you mean Ceph?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I feel like I should out at this point

that I am

EXPLICITLY not townreading Shoshin

[Celestial Coordinates]

Anyway I'm heading out later.

[Celestial Coordinates]

RC, if you're townreading Shoshin, why are you opposing her getting the baton?

I'm not, that's the thing.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't think this will be a hard game.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Shoshin is... really really really obviously scum to me.

I'm really not understanding how that is a non-consensus read. Like I understood why she was wrongly townread in our last game. She's just sorta obvscum in this one.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think Cephrir/Shoshin is 2 scum a very significant majority of the time.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Was this read formed entirely after she tried to vote herself over you?

No, she was scum from very early on for her posts interacting with Cephrir and the way she developed her Wisdom read clinched it.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Was this read formed entirely after she tried to vote herself over you?

No, she was scum from very early on for her posts interacting with Cephrir and the way she developed her Wisdom read clinched it.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Is Shoshin similar to the other game you mentioned in magical girls u pick where she was scum and you were town and she won?

On a surface level, she's very unlike that game and I think that she's intentionally trying to play unlike that game on a surface level.
In terms of what I'm reading here for, she's alike in the core sense that she's 'trying to imitate a meta' but it doesn't at all feel like something is actually there and it's all kind of a projection.

Like she's taking stances that she can justify to an extent but I don't think that they're actually how her reads would develop were she town and a lot of it feels like scum play in general.

[Celestial Coordinates]

the way she developed her Wisdom read clinched it.

I town read the timing of this even though I didn't agree with the case itself. Why is it scum indicative?

Because it's not town!Shoshin and I don't know how best to explain that outside of repeatedly referring to the fact that it's not town!Shoshin.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Also Cephrir/Shoshin's interactions are kinda transparently SvS interactions outside of the fact that I scumread them both individually. Kinda think Goodies is a third but a lot less sure of that one.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think you've just forgotten how to deal with players who dont worship you

Do you think that this is something Cephrir as town actually says here in reference to a read that has literally nothing to do with how he's interacted with me?

[Celestial Coordinates]

He's playing the field, he knows that there's a large amount of people in this game who will readily lap up accusations that my read on him is borne out of ego regardless of the relevance.
That's another reason that doesn't make sense to say as town by the way: if my read was borne out of an ego thing like he's claiming, why am I not going after one of the people who actually disrespected me?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't think Ceph/Shoshin are lynch pool material though. Pretty sure there are possibly better candidates unless RC wants to forcibly strong arm a Shoshin lynch. And I'm sort of not seeing the Shoshin scum right now.

No one saw Shoshin scum last game and yet she was scum. She's a lot better of a scum player than you give her credit for and I've caught her as scum every game she was scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't think Ceph/Shoshin are lynch pool material though. Pretty sure there are possibly better candidates unless RC wants to forcibly strong arm a Shoshin lynch. And I'm sort of not seeing the Shoshin scum right now.

I mean, if you want to just go after a bunch of lynchbait who will flip town you can. There's nothing really scummy about Pmysterious and Gameplay isn't actually all that bad.
But they'll flip town and we'll be back here tomorrow.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I can happily assure you I dont get along with egos under any circumstances

Okay, sure, but you're scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I guess we can pretend this game is so easy that we've already won if we want to make certain we lose

If we pretend we've already lost, will that make certain we win?

I'm going to sheep someone on Cephrir, just need to figure out who knows him best.

Look I can be fun or I can be spiteful the choice is yours

Would it reflect on your alignment at all?

Look I can be fun or I can be spiteful the choice is yours

Would it reflect on your alignment at all?

I'm not sure, I think I've done all four combinations

Was there a specific combination you preferred more as either alignment?

Thanks for the straight answer Cephrir. Do you have any reads yet?

Trying to avoid tackling the more subjective and more complicated metrics that make me think Shoshin/Cephrir is a SvS interaction
Shoshin decides she isn't going to try to read Cephrir (WHY?) and then spends 5 consecutive posts interacting with him.
The decision not to read him is weird scummy and makes sense coming from scum (doesn't want to have to take responsibility for a read) and the rest just feels like typical scum forcing interactions.

Even continuing the game, Cephrir's "I would vote Shoshin but my scumread is voting there" is super weird and super scumbuddyish.
I'm really just calling a spade a spade, this isn't some sort of megacomplicated read and I think that you guys would be seeing it if you were genuinely scumhunting these two.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't think Ceph/Shoshin are lynch pool material though. Pretty sure there are possibly better candidates unless RC wants to forcibly strong arm a Shoshin lynch. And I'm sort of not seeing the Shoshin scum right now.

I mean, if you want to just go after a bunch of lynchbait who will flip town you can. There's nothing really scummy about Pmysterious and Gameplay isn't actually all that bad.
But they'll flip town and we'll be back here tomorrow.

Can you give your general reads and feels of the whole/majority of the playerbase? I don't know if you gave reads since you were arguing with Ank for like 5-10 pages.

Locktown
Raybellz
OH

Townread
Oversoul
Sakura
Dann
SS

Leantown
Pmysterious

Null
Everyone else

Scummy
Goodies

Scum
Ceph/Shoshin

[Celestial Coordinates]

I also would like to note on the record that Cephrir's immediate reaction to that push despite it being on him and someone he was townreading was to respond in a way that assumes that I'm town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Mmm tunnel me daddy it feels so good

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'll admit there's a selfish part to voting myself -- I want to stay alive so that I can keep playing the game. It's probably my last one for the next couple years.

is this a lie?

I think it's a true statement regarding the last one for the next couple of years part.

Is Shoshin trying to go for the baton scummy in itself?

No, but the timing of her decision to go for it and the surrounding factors and the reasons that she gave are all scummy.

[Celestial Coordinates]

So where would Shoshin attack if she was town? Cause she kind of knee jerked attacked Wisdom which I mean looks kind of good.

She'd find a read she thinks she can plausibly push and not have held too far against her if it flips town. Wisdom seems to fill all those checkboxes, no?

[Celestial Coordinates]

This discussion about mechanics is very boring.

Also: Shoshin would absolutely as town be helping me make sure everyone realizes that we HAVE to be using the baton as lynches.
She wouldn't be all lol mechanics in a way that actually helps create a gamestate where the batons aren't used as lynches.

[Celestial Coordinates]

There's a degree of self-consciousness in 315 that doesn't feel like town Wisdom.

This caught my eye:

i just realized bp can also mean baton pass in addition to bulletproof

when i said and read bp before i was talking about bulletproof

And then this:

hm
all my first thoughts were players already in the game
I have one more thought but we'll see

I think it's best to treat baton mechanic as two extra lynches.

isnt it already two extra lynches
or do you mean decide the two people now, then just baton everyone else

There's also the stuff Yuk pointed to earlier, which wasn't scummy alone but definitely fit a scum Wisdom narrative.

I'm not the best at explaining feelings. Let's just say that I have an intuition for Wisdom's alignment from reading lots of his games.

He feels scummy, is one reason.

How do we feel about baton-killing Wisdom today?

And this just doesn't feel like a push from Town!her, either. It feels like she's trying to sound like herself but it really doesn't sound like her.

You're saying she'd do that as town but she's apparently doing it as scum? I'm a bit lost on this.

Sorry. I don't know who she'd push as town, but I think that I would be able to figure it out based on HOW she pushes that pushes moreso than who she pushes.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'm sorry, who are you accusing of worshiping him?

A considerable percentage of the site

If anything, I'm underappreciated.

I have a higher winrate than Elli did and at his peak everyone was sucking his dick whereas I can't play a single game without several people trying to dear me down and say I ain't shit.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Like it's conceivable that I'm wrong on the Cephrir end, even though I don't think that I am. There's explanations like Shoshin having been told by her teammates that Cephrir is super powertown and wanting to buddy up.
But I think I am basically never wrong on the Shoshin end, and killing both is at least 1 scum which I'm fine with and I don't think Ceph ever goes to endgame with those associatives with a scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Also, if I'm wrong on you, you should talk to me person to person instead of making jabs at my personality and my reputation.

I'm pretty sure you should see my issue with Shoshin's interactions with you regardless of your alignment, especially if you see yourself as a threatening townie who scum would want to pocket.

[Celestial Coordinates]

She admits the baton mechanics are used for two extra lynched and maybe expects people to realize how the mechanics worked? Am I missing something here?

But she's not helping me to push it. She's just 'lol mechanics' instead of being actual town Shoshin who would be getting super pissed off at the suggestion that people would gamethrow by not following the consensus and asking said people why they even bother to play mafia if they're just going to troll.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Yeah still have no idea why you're so upset

Presumably, Enter is upset because you responded to an in-game case with a bunch of shade directed towards my personality, reputation, playstyle, etc instead of responding to it.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'm so glad I play this fun game to get shat on and insulted every time

I mean, I made an in-game case on you and you responded by shitting on and insulting me. Now you're upset when Enter did the same to you.

[Celestial Coordinates]

What if we all decided to play mafia instead of interpersonal politics

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't think Ceph is scum if Shoshin is. I feel like Ceph is probably pocketed if Shoshin is scum.

the more he posts the more I think that it's SvS, js. and I'd like to kill them both together first baton pass.

Yeah I really super crossed a ton of lines and was extremely awful

Never said you did, but neither did Enter and I feel like the response was relatively similar in proportion and everyone has done things that it would be better if they didn't do in the future?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't think Ceph is scum if Shoshin is. I feel like Ceph is probably pocketed if Shoshin is scum.

I truly struggle to understand where you're coming from in terms of your Cephrir townread.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Either way to me knowing that Cephrir is town is super informative as to the identities of the scum because someone in the scum team is the reason Shoshin went after him so much.
Etc. I still think there's a world it's not SvS. But I don't think I'd be okay seeing a slot with Ceph-Shoshin interactions going to endgame without a really good reason to townread them that currently doesn't exist.

I guess I'll lay off 'cause they said they'd do stuff later but.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Rn I do feel like this stalling is so that scum can figure out a response to the gamestate, so I expect ~big things~ from Shoshin and Ceph soon.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I do plan to meta Cephrir at some point, I just wasn't saying it because I knew nothing would offend him like threatening to meta read him.

[Celestial Coordinates]

It's a good thing that I decided to do nothing and let Bitty carry my lazy ass in Day 1.
Imagine having to actually think about last few pages

oof

[Celestial Coordinates]

I still have plenty I want to get done before that happens btw so L-2 is good enough.l

[Celestial Coordinates]

I am pretty shocked this is meeting with agreement

You still haven't responded to the merits of the Shoshin case even if you claim/know that you are town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I am pretty shocked this is meeting with agreement

You still haven't responded to the merits of the Shoshin case even if you claim/know that you are town.

I havent read it and I'm in bed

so you're taking potshots at a case that you haven't even read, good to know actually.

I do expect half an iota of critical thought from you, yes. I've enjoyed working with you in the past.

how do you know critical thought isn't happening if you don't know the case that's being sheeped

[Celestial Coordinates]

so you're taking potshots at a case that you haven't even read, good to know actually.

I mean I can see your conclusion is wrong, so yes?

My conclusion is that Shoshin is scum and 1/3 of her ISO being about you makes you probable scumbuddies.
I think the latter is objectively a reasonable belief to have if the former is true and you don't know why I believe the former, so.

[Celestial Coordinates]

1/3 of her ISO being about you makes you probable scumbuddies.

This is genuinely a hot take to me. I would've said the opposite is more likely.

It's really weird to talk that much about any one player but it does make a lot of sense if you're buddies trying to spew each other not scumbuddies based on the logic you yourself are employing.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I dunno. You can push alternative scumreads or something.

Doesnt really seem like an ironclad case to me lol
The game is like a day old you're talking about a large percentage of a small number of posts

Note that I have not isoed shoshin to fact check your claim

And yet I said several times that I wasn't 100% on you, I just think your flip is super valuable because even if you're town it tells us for sure someone on the scumteam thinks the world of you and set Shoshin to pocket you.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I dunno. You can push alternative scumreads or something.

That does sound like what I'd do to distract if I were scum, but I havent got any solid ones yet and I dont plan on inventing any.

Okay.

Because like I said earlier in this day phase, this isn't literally 100% conclusive but unless you do something worth townreading you for I still think you're a high equity kill.
You complain about me tunneling you when I've spent a ton of time trying to prompt you to engage me meaningfully and you've just kinda been like nah not gonna defend myself.

You're attacking the people who scumread you for scumreading you (myself, Sakura) instead of addressing anything and it's really not giving any of us a reason to change our minds.

I really, really dont, and I would bet a large sum of money no such statement appears in the scum thread even with the prior of shoshin scum.

Okay so when I cite a large number of games where this happened do I get a large sum of money, or is this exclusively referring to it being you.

[Celestial Coordinates]

No one's trying to shut you down and kill you. Everyone's trying to push you to respond and give us more info to work with. And yeah, it's 13 hours in.
This defeatism and this resorting to AtE rather than like doing your thing playing the game showing that you're town feels scummy to me.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Like you've tried everything in response to this scumread except actually trying to do towny things engaging with reads finding scum and whatever.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I also don't think "scum engage each other excessively to distance" is so arcane a statement even years and metas apart that you react in that way to it, but who knows.

[Celestial Coordinates]

i mean, he can just go to bed and effort tomorrow or whatever

this just isn't what i expected from cephrir with what i knew of him if he's town

[Celestial Coordinates]

I've been playing exclusively from my phone and I typically do more productive things from a computer

I also didnt sleep much last night because it was my first night on a cpap and I cant deal with having a mask strapped to my face. It's possible that this is making me sensitive and irritable.

I'll try again tomorrow.

No one's lynching you tonight, just go to bed.

UNVOTE:

just want to keep myself away from baton pass range so it doesn't get triggered early.

[Celestial Coordinates]

UNVOTE:

-E

Not unvoting because I don't trust CeCo but I've been talking with my partner about... things and I'm rearranging the way I approach the game due to certain... realizations.

please don't make me feel like I need to make a momentum play to get BP day 1.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't see Shoshin pushing a scum wincondition? If anything she was trying to redirect the conversation to be more focused on who we are baton killing rather than "other shit" which is townie enough for me. That's playing with baton mechanics as a lynch tool.

she's scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

she was a near universal townread in this game despite being obvscum as well. I don't understand why you guys are townreading her. it makes no sense to me.
but i'm not going to let her outlive me.



no she's fucking scum how is it possibly easier for you to believe that i'm being an anti-town douchebag than that shoshin is just scum?

[Celestial Coordinates]

grr

[Celestial Coordinates]

shoshin doesn't do anything towny but for some reason everyone townreads her anyway.

[Celestial Coordinates]

it's funny how you can realize day 1 that a game is a town loss

[Celestial Coordinates]

ok
no more votes on us
baton kill me and shoshin and i'm done wasting my time with the players in this game, peace.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'm willing to change my baton kill pool to Cephrir and Goodies

i literally don't care who the non-Shoshin member is. I have effectively a guilty on her and I'm treating it as such.
I've skipped ahead a few pages and I don't end up being the baton pass so I have 1 day phase to eliminate Shoshin and that's going to happen.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I have called Shoshin 100% lockscum on the first few pages of every single game she's been scum, ever. She's never been mislynched in a game where we were t-t.

You're arrogant and stupid if you think that your read on her, whatever it is, whatever your reasons, outweigh that, particularly when she has a staggering tendency to get townread for the most banal shit imaginable.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I have gone through her ISO in this game 7 or 8 times now. Every time my conclusion is that these are transparent scumposts with nothing redeeming about them. And yet she still has half the field calling her town for no reason. I don't understand it, it's painful for me, it makes me frustrated and angry, I kinda feel like people are refusing this because they just want to stick it to me even if they know that what I'm saying is true.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Why are you town CC?

bad question.

[Celestial Coordinates]

shoshin does not look like scum to me. It makes sense for her to scumread me since she only has a single game with me where i was scum, so she doesnt know better and thinks she sees scum me everywhere. I suppose she could try and imitate that as scum, but eh

You two scumbuddies then, is that what's up?

[Celestial Coordinates]

The only way I'm going to be okay with sheeping a nullread is if you are willing to take a BoP.

And even then I'm not sure if I'm okay with that.

Sure. BoP me on Shoshin flip.

[Celestial Coordinates]

there is literally no chance in hell she makes about 15 of the posts that she has made this game as town. and that should be obvious to anyone who knows her beyond a superficial level.

[Celestial Coordinates]

CC who else in this lobby do you think can read Shoshin other than you?

???????????

i dunno

who else is scumreading her?

[Celestial Coordinates]

take the set of all players and subtract the players town or nullreading her. those people can read her.

[Celestial Coordinates]

shoshin/yukzuk probably has more scum equity than shoshin/Ceph

i don't even know about ceph

like i just wanted him to fucking respond

[Celestial Coordinates]

this game has already made me tremendously unhappy. i knew as of before last game i hated mafia. i hated last game. why am i here

[Celestial Coordinates]

this game has already made me tremendously unhappy. i knew as of before last game i hated mafia. i hated last game. why am i here

take a break from the thread

the day just started

wait and see how shoshin/others respond?

The day just started and there's already been so much 'fuck this shit bc it comes from RC' from the game thread.
Also I'm pretty sure if I just leave the game for a day Shoshin will get us lynched and everyone will still think Shoshin was town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

this game will probably flow a bit better once Shoshin responds

everyone townread her response when she was scum last game though.

i have little hope of you guys magically realizing she's scum if you don't already.

[Celestial Coordinates]

like giggles said i was antitown and that they didn't want to play with me because i wanted to lynch shoshin early
schadd just called her locktown instantly and never reevalled???

everyone else did whatever i don't even want to think about it anymore

[Celestial Coordinates]

like giggles said i was antitown and that they didn't want to play with me because i wanted to lynch shoshin early
schadd just called her locktown instantly and never reevalled???

everyone else did whatever i don't even want to think about it anymore

[Celestial Coordinates]

like in terms of more compromise-y lynches i think that goodies is scummy but aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa to this game

[Celestial Coordinates]

I mean, I'm not like jumping at the opp to lynch you if it helps

[Celestial Coordinates]

Thanks for the straight answer Cephrir. Do you have any reads yet?

I don’t know why this post annoys me. It’s sitting there and doing that though.

basically every post from shoshin to cephrir should make you feel that way.

[Celestial Coordinates]

viewtopic.php?t=77435&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Town rc, town shoshin, scumread on shoshin

are we done

This is incredibly intellectually dishonest given that I scumread her for a relatively short period in the overall game, came around to townreading her, and I mostly scumread her because she literally 0 posted that game.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Wisdom is discrediting me because he wants to shit on me and is playing to an agenda.

I didn't say that literally at no point in any game did I ever incorrectly scumread or townread her. I said I've had the same pattern wrt being damn sure that she was scum early and in 1 case I decided to try to hunt her partner, then succeeded but was unable to lynch her partner because the other two town scumread each other and in the other case I had a bunch of idiots attacking my ability to read her and calling me anti-town to the point that I stopped wanting to play.

[Celestial Coordinates]

RC can't read me. He was wrong about me both times I was scum (check the games if you don't believe me), and he has consistently called me scum in every game I've been town.

This is also a statement that is not only bullshit but that you know to be bullshit.
Starting to think that Wis/Shoshin is SvS and the push was a bus rather than just some random shitpush on town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

That's probably a good idea.

This said while I wasn't scumreading her. Etc. Note how commonplace it is for her in our recent few games to essentially say that if I end up voting her I'm scum.
She's scum and she's not the only scum player who is going all out discrediting me right now.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Wisdom is discrediting me because he wants to shit on me and is playing to an agenda.

I didn't say that literally at no point in any game did I ever incorrectly scumread or townread her. I said I've had the same pattern wrt being damn sure that she was scum early and in 1 case I decided to try to hunt her partner, then succeeded but was unable to lynch her partner because the other two town scumread each other and in the other case I had a bunch of idiots attacking my ability to read her and calling me anti-town to the point that I stopped wanting to play.

Neither of these describe BoP?

Wanting to find her partner was BoP, public cop I was just too tired from badtown shitting on my correct read to pursue it.
Honestly I'm getting to the same point in this game where I don't really care if this is a loss if townies let themselves be convinced that I'm an arrogant moron despite how many statistical measures show my competence.

You scumread me, Oversoul? You should know better. There's no way I pick up my role PM in this game if I'm scum. RC should know better too.

You're essentially claiming that you should be spewed town by the fact that you didn't ignore the role PM. It's a stupid and dishonest claim.

This is my last game for the next two years. I'm not wasting it on a scum game.

Right.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Nevermind.
For some reason I remember you town reading Shoshin in BoP, but you scum read her through all of it. My bad.

never townread her. she fluctuated from null to scum but my attitude was always look for most likely non-her player to be scum. as soon as we had first set of flips, I repeatedly expressed 100% surety she was scum, etc.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Nevermind.
For some reason I remember you town reading Shoshin in BoP, but you scum read her through all of it. My bad.

never townread her. she fluctuated from null to scum but my attitude was always look for most likely non-her player to be scum. as soon as we had first set of flips, I repeatedly expressed 100% surety she was scum, etc.

[Celestial Coordinates]

This was very obviously a joke on my part. The last time I played with GIF, who I was speaking to at the time, you were scum & I was town. And you were about to lynch me. The point was that if he followed your reads, he was probably going to lose.

If RC actually pushes my lynch here, he's scum.

you've said this many times in many different ways over many different games to the point of me getting salty over it prematurely so...

[Celestial Coordinates]

Very difficult for me to take that as anything besides a hard scumclaim. I've seen Shoshin push the logic that she's confirmed town for picking up the role PM before as town but in that game she used it based on the fact that the game took several weeks to start and she would have just been done the game if she was scum, not based on the logic that literally her being present in a game was confirmation that she was town.

Anyway, we can kill Wisdom Gameplay or something along those lines for first baton pass instead and almost certainly get at least one scum with a lot less mental effort from me and I'd be good with that.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think scum Shoshin being wary that she's my secret scumread and no longer willing to risk keeping me alive to D2 for towncred that may never come is a really obvious progression.
I also kinda feel like Wisdom is being fed games to cite and use as reasoning.

People are approaching this game very differently than how I thought they would. Maybe I’m the not normal one. :thonk:

Out

This is a weird as fuck lobby tbh and it's hard to find townreads because of it.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I also kinda feel like Wisdom is being fed games to cite and use as reasoning.

i searched and grabbed the first result that came up

and you didn't read enough to notice that I only scumread her because she 0 posted and the read changed when she stopped 0 posting?

[Celestial Coordinates]

like, you're straight up dishonestly pushing an RC's reads suck agenda. that's a demonstrable fact. what does it say about your alignment? i mean it should say you're scum but who really knows tbh

[Celestial Coordinates]

no that was irrelevant to gif's point

i dont care who you scumread and why, i care that people don't believe your lies

My statement was twofold: that I never failed to scumread her as scum and I never let her be mislynched as town. Those are both 100% factual and the game you cited as evidence if anything proves the rule that even if I scumread her wrongly at one point I'm highly liable to shift that read and townread her.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Gonna selfvote again even though I'm reasonably confident at this point scum is never going to let our wagon go through. VOTE: CC

Has she ever actually replaced out because she rolled scum? If so, I think that qualifies as a trust tell.

(Not to mention tactically replacing out which is a violation on its own.)

She has not tactically replaced out as scum but she has alluded to her willingness to do so in the past.

[Celestial Coordinates]

It's not that she can't play scum, it's that she prefers the advantages garnered as a town player by not being a player who has any notoriety for their scum game. That's true of a ton of players who underplay as town though.

[Celestial Coordinates]

As scum. Being notorious for your scum play makes mafia significantly, significantly less enjoyable than it is when you don't have a reputation as a scum player.
This whole discrediting me thing would be a nonstarter if people weren't concerned that I could be scum, in spite of whatever logic proves me town up to this point.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I took the time to actually read Yukyukz iso since you wanted to put them as a serious lynch contender
What exactly is your read on Sakura Hana that you've been dancing around?

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think I can say with fairly high certainty this game ends up being a town loss from here if I don't brute force it onto a better path, but otoh I don't really want to brute force it onto another path.

dont have one and i usually misread her anyway

I was talking to Yukyukz not you because they had this weird engagement with Shoshin because they voted them for saying that Sakura Hana could be scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Cephrir -

I'm sorry you're feeling crappy. I do think that there are a few places where you've seemed more on edge than you would be typically and this is your daily reminder that I think that you are great and good but also that you should be the change you want to see in the world. I don't think Sakura was trying to be an ass to you even though she came across that way a bit and I don't think that you'll get as bogged down talking about RC's personality with time away and a fresh outlook - even sassrir is a little more hit and run than you are now, I think. Let me know if there's something positive I can do.

see this is the kind of post that I was looking for to townread Nacho but he only produced it after I outlined what I thought was missing from his ISO and I think he'd be able to reverse engineer it?

[Celestial Coordinates]

who are the three people youd kill if you had to choose right now? @s_s

That's not a helpful question.

Shoshin and Cephrir, and if Shoshin flips town then CC, otherwise Goodies.

add stupid nonsensical reads to the reasons i scumread you then

The logic is really simple, either I have correct reads or I'm scum. This isn't stupid nonsensical reads and I think S_S is more likely to be town than scum as of right now.