Baton Pass [Game Over!]

[Shoshin]

People I will never support for first round baton:
RC hydra
Ankamius hydra
Nacho
Wisdom

People I will support for baton:
Myself
Shoshin

I also support myself for Baton.

[Shoshin]

I guess we can pretend this game is so easy that we've already won if we want to make certain we lose

If we pretend we've already lost, will that make certain we win?

[Shoshin]

I'm going to sheep someone on Cephrir, just need to figure out who knows him best.

[Shoshin]

That's probably a good idea.

[Shoshin]

I feel pretty comfortable reading either of Nancy or RC, so I'm not too worried about their slot this game.

[Shoshin]

I think Oversoul could probably read me with above random accuracy too.

[Shoshin]

Look I can be fun or I can be spiteful the choice is yours

Would it reflect on your alignment at all?

[Shoshin]

Look I can be fun or I can be spiteful the choice is yours

Would it reflect on your alignment at all?

I'm not sure, I think I've done all four combinations

Was there a specific combination you preferred more as either alignment?

[Shoshin]

Thanks for the straight answer Cephrir. Do you have any reads yet?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Celestial

[Shoshin]

I think it's best to treat baton mechanic as two extra lynches.

[Shoshin]

I don't want to waste more time on mechanics, especially not 24 hours. I think we should use the mechanic optimally & that means treating it as extra lynches. We collectively choose two players to die & then baton everyone else. This gives us much more to talk about than exclusively focusing on who gets the first baton.

[Shoshin]

How do we feel about baton-killing Wisdom today?

[Shoshin]

He feels scummy, is one reason.

[Shoshin]

I'm not the best at explaining feelings. Let's just say that I have an intuition for Wisdom's alignment from reading lots of his games.

[Shoshin]

This caught my eye:

i just realized bp can also mean baton pass in addition to bulletproof

when i said and read bp before i was talking about bulletproof

And then this:

hm
all my first thoughts were players already in the game
I have one more thought but we'll see

I think it's best to treat baton mechanic as two extra lynches.

isnt it already two extra lynches
or do you mean decide the two people now, then just baton everyone else

There's also the stuff Yuk pointed to earlier, which wasn't scummy alone but definitely fit a scum Wisdom narrative.

[Shoshin]

There's a degree of self-consciousness in 315 that doesn't feel like town Wisdom.

[Shoshin]

It's not a tell for everyone.

[Shoshin]

To be clear, I prefer myself for baton over RC. I just figured nobody would want to protect me over RC so I voted Celestial.

[Shoshin]

I'd guess that whether I'm a likely kill depends on who the scum are. If RC's scum, I'd expect myself to be the top nightkill. If scum is some combination of players I don't know, then probably not me as the kill.

[Shoshin]

RC has a reputation for being killed on N1.

I don't.

[Shoshin]

Nacho, what's your read on Wisdom?

[Shoshin]

Is that Bit or GIF?

[Shoshin]

I'd like to say that first person complaining about the pace is scum, but I lack data to say so.

I've had this thought before as well, and I think it depends if they prefer town or scum.

[Shoshin]

This discussion about mechanics is very boring.

[Shoshin]

i scumread OS starting now

Is this RC?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin is Sakura obvtown?

No. I had a brief moment where I thought they might be scum.

[Shoshin]

RC, what's your read on Wisdom?

[Shoshin]

These conflicts are boring. You're obviously the most likely to get shot, unless you're scum, in which case I'm probably most likely to get shot. This isn't worth wasting time on.

[Shoshin]

These conflicts are boring. You're obviously the most likely to get shot, unless you're scum, in which case I'm probably most likely to get shot. This isn't worth wasting time on.

Scum would shoot nacho over you actually

Scum RC? I'm skeptical of that claim.

[Shoshin]

I'd propose Wisdom/Goodies at the moment.

[Shoshin]

I'd propose Wisdom/Goodies at the moment.

Why are we doing this already

For the same reason we vote in regular games starting on page 1.

[Shoshin]

I'm going to say everyone who agreed with killing Wisdom/Goodies is town.

[Shoshin]

Nacho has been good this game.

I thought he was underwhelming so far. What did you like?

[Shoshin]

Gameplay pinged me as well.

[Shoshin]

I think {gameplay nacho goodies} are the 3 people that I like least so far.

This is roughly where I'm at, except with the inclusion of Wisdom as well. Why do you disagree with me on him?

[Shoshin]

It's possible that what I'm seeing in Nacho is him struggling to get back into mafia (or even just mafia on MS) so I'm reluctant to go after him right now but he feels like he's pretty typical scumposting right now in the sense that there's something missing from his posting that I would expect to be there from town him (moreso knowing Nacho specifically.)

This was my sense as well, I expected more from him.

[Shoshin]

I think {gameplay nacho goodies} are the 3 people that I like least so far.

This is roughly where I'm at, except with the inclusion of Wisdom as well. Why do you disagree with me on him?

i shrug at wisdom. i have no read on wisdom rn.

What do you make of the posts I pointed to?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Something_Smart

I think this is a very poor choice for first baton. No offense to SS but I doubt scum kill him.

[Shoshin]

Scum Ceph is a scary thought.

[Shoshin]

It is? Do I know you?

It's the players I don't know that scare me most.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Shoshin

[Shoshin]

I don't want to die N1.

[Shoshin]

Why are you scumreading Ceph, Oversoul? He feels town to me.

[Shoshin]

I don't want to die N1.

Do you not agree that the odds of you dying N1 are significantly lower than ours?

Yes, but I also just hate the idea of me dying instead of you.

[Shoshin]

Yes, but I also just hate the idea of me dying instead of you.

This is a very strange thing to say.

I'm not into the idea of sacrificing myself for your sake.

You've been framing this in terms of odds, which I was too at first, but I think the more relevant question is who town would rather have alive after D1. I think my D2 reads are not worse than yours, on average, and I think I'm more likely to win for town at LYLO than you. You're welcome to disagree, as I'm sure you will.

[Shoshin]

Then why did you vote him in the first place?

I hadn't thought through how the mechanic worked. I was thinking in terms of who scum would choose to kill, as if trying to predict a doctor, instead of who is most valuable to the town after D1, which is the more relevant issue.

[Shoshin]

I'm not into the idea of sacrificing myself for your sake.

You've been framing this in terms of odds, which I was too at first, but I think the more relevant question is who town would rather have alive after D1. I think my D2 reads are not worse than yours, on average, and I think I'm more likely to win for town at LYLO than you. You're welcome to disagree, as I'm sure you will.

I don't think this idea that my reads are worse D2 onwards is based in reality except in terms of late game replacements.
If anything, my D2 lynches are my best and I don't have a large enough sample size for later than that.

You're the one who told me your reads at LYLO weren't great, and that your reads were best on D1. You told me that.

[Shoshin]

I'll admit there's a selfish part to voting myself -- I want to stay alive so that I can keep playing the game. It's probably my last one for the next couple years.

[Shoshin]

I'm very skeptical of you believing that you ever get the baton over me unless it's what scum want.

I didn't think I'd get it either, but then a few people said they'd vote for me, so now I'm going to try.

[Shoshin]

Your response to this shouldn't be to see it as an opportunity but to think critically about why scum want you to have the baton pass today since it's reasonably obvious that there's at least 4 town on my wagon.

I think it's reasonably obvious that the people who want me to have the baton are also town.

[Shoshin]

I think it's reasonably obvious that the people who want me to have the baton are also town.

Sorry, you mean Ceph?

Ceph, Oh, Yuk, Dann, among others who voted me at some point.

[Shoshin]

I think even Gay Dance voted me at some point.

[Shoshin]

You don't have to vote for me over RC if you think it's better to have him around than me.

[Shoshin]

RC can't read me. He was wrong about me both times I was scum (check the games if you don't believe me), and he has consistently called me scum in every game I've been town.

If anyone other than RC has concerns about me, please let me know. I'm not going to spend my time addressing anything he said.

[Shoshin]

To be clear, I never said RC was town this game. I don't like to say much about RC's alignment until D2 unless I'm very confident that he's town, in which case you'll hear me saying that very forcefully to make sure he doesn't get mislynched.

[Shoshin]

Like Shoshin’s unvote isn’t bad in a vacuum it’s the fact that she votes herself after earlier stating she’s not worth it to BP. The logic she uses to justify the vote is contradictory in my opinion.

I never said I'm not worth a bulletproof. I've been pretty clear about saying that I'm a preferable choice to RC from the beginning.

[Shoshin]

You scumread me, Oversoul? You should know better. There's no way I pick up my role PM in this game if I'm scum. RC should know better too.

[Shoshin]

This is my last game for the next two years. I'm not wasting it on a scum game.

[Shoshin]

That's probably a good idea.

This said while I wasn't scumreading her. Etc. Note how commonplace it is for her in our recent few games to essentially say that if I end up voting her I'm scum.
She's scum and she's not the only scum player who is going all out discrediting me right now.

This was very obviously a joke on my part. The last time I played with GIF, who I was speaking to at the time, you were scum & I was town. And you were about to lynch me. The point was that if he followed your reads, he was probably going to lose.

[Shoshin]

I mean confirm.

[Shoshin]

Very difficult for me to take that as anything besides a hard scumclaim. I've seen Shoshin push the logic that she's confirmed town for picking up the role PM before as town but in that game she used it based on the fact that the game took several weeks to start and she would have just been done the game if she was scum, not based on the logic that literally her being present in a game was confirmation that she was town.

Do you realize how long this game took to start? I've been waiting what felt like weeks.

[Shoshin]

RC can't read me. He was wrong about me both times I was scum (check the games if you don't believe me), and he has consistently called me scum in every game I've been town.

If anyone other than RC has concerns about me, please let me know. I'm not going to spend my time addressing anything he said.

Why didnt you bring this up before when people were saying that they'd rely on RC to read you?

I thought that was a joke. The specific person who said they'd rely on RC to read me is someone who has been in two games with me & RC. RC tried to lead a lynch on me both times. I was town both times. Can you see why I'd interpret their post as a joke?

[Shoshin]

Like Shoshin’s unvote isn’t bad in a vacuum it’s the fact that she votes herself after earlier stating she’s not worth it to BP. The logic she uses to justify the vote is contradictory in my opinion.

I never said I'm not worth a bulletproof. I've been pretty clear about saying that I'm a preferable choice to RC from the beginning.

Then what's this?:

RC has a reputation for being killed on N1.

I don't.

Do you... scumread RC? Coz otherwise this makes 0 sense.

That's me saying something that's true & irrelevant to the question of who should get the bulletproof.

[Shoshin]

You scumread me, Oversoul? You should know better. There's no way I pick up my role PM in this game if I'm scum. RC should know better too.

why would u say this?

like why?

I don't know what you're asking. Oversoul just played with scum me, and town me, and there's no way he realistically thinks this is scum me.

[Shoshin]

RC can't read me. He was wrong about me both times I was scum (check the games if you don't believe me), and he has consistently called me scum in every game I've been town.

If anyone other than RC has concerns about me, please let me know. I'm not going to spend my time addressing anything he said.

Why didnt you bring this up before when people were saying that they'd rely on RC to read you?

I thought that was a joke. The specific person who said they'd rely on RC to read me is someone who has been in two games with me & RC. RC tried to lead a lynch on me both times. I was town both times. Can you see why I'd interpret their post as a joke?

But did RC townread you in the end in those games?

No. RC was scum in those games. RC perceives me as his biggest threat as scum & is willing to tank his town cred to get me mislynched. He has told me this personally outside of games & his behavior bears this out.

That's me saying something that's true & irrelevant to the question of who should get the bulletproof.

Why is it that your explanation for everything that doesnt make sense is "joke" or "i said something untrue and irrelevant"

No offense, but I think you're confusing two different things.

The only thing I said was a "joke" was the bit about sheeping RC. I didn't say anything else was a "joke." The reason for my explanation is because it's the truth.

I didn't say anything was "untrue." That's your word.

I've repeatedly said (not just to you but much earlier) that that question of who is most likely to get nightkilled is not the relevant question when it comes to deciding who gets bulletproof. The relevant question for the bulletproof is who town most wants to have alive after D1. Yes, scum are more likely to kill RC in the event that he's town. But that doesn't mean that keeping RC alive is better for the town than keeping me alive. These are two different things.

My question, what's the purpose of even asking this question? "Why is your explanation X" doesn't seem like a very useful question to ask.

You scumread me, Oversoul? You should know better. There's no way I pick up my role PM in this game if I'm scum. RC should know better too.

why would u say this?

like why?

I don't know what you're asking. Oversoul just played with scum me, and town me, and there's no way he realistically thinks this is scum me.

You're implying that the fact that you're playing the game means you're town.

Yes, correct. The fact that I'm playing this game is a town-tell. It might not appear that way to you, because you don't know me, but that doesn't change the reality of the fact that it's very unlikely I would have confirmed my role if I was scum. I've said this before in other games where I was town, for context, so this isn't something I'm making up. This is my last game for the next two years, and I definitely wouldn't be spending it playing scum. That's just a fact, yes it might seem unethical, but I wasn't even sure I wanted to play more mafia because I was scared of getting a mafia PM. I only signed up for this game because NSG invited me and it seemed like a fun setup to play.

[Shoshin]

I feel like Shoshin should be arguing why her play makes her town, but she’s chosen to completely ignore RC’s case on her in favor of the dumb angleshooty argument.

If you want me to address his case, I will. I mostly don't want to get in a back-and-forth with RC, so if I'm addressing it, it's going to be for your sake, not his.

[Shoshin]

It's a bit absurd to call me scum when nothing has even happened in this game. Generally-speaking, town RC gives me a chance to lynch scum because he knows my reads are good enough to do so. The fact he isn't doing that here is very concerning.

I also think his push on me came at a very suspicious moment -- I started challenging his bulletproof, meaning he possibly wouldn't be able to kill me at night & would need to lynch me.

Scum RC cannot afford to leave me alive for very long.

[Shoshin]

Why are you townreading RC, Sakura?

[Shoshin]

hi shoshin, u got some good scum reads?

I think there's a decent chance of scum in RC/Wisdom/Oversoul, and some combination of less active players (Nacho, PM, Gameplay, etc).

[Shoshin]

Yes, correct. The fact that I'm playing this game is a town-tell. It might not appear that way to you, because you don't know me, but that doesn't change the reality of the fact that it's very unlikely I would have confirmed my role if I was scum. I've said this before in other games where I was town, for context, so this isn't something I'm making up. This is my last game for the next two years, and I definitely wouldn't be spending it playing scum. That's just a fact, yes it might seem unethical, but I wasn't even sure I wanted to play more mafia because I was scared of getting a mafia PM. I only signed up for this game because NSG invited me and it seemed like a fun setup to play.

Do you realize that trust tells are bannable offenses and prone to modkill?

I've never used a trust tell, and like I said, this is my last game on the site for over two years. Just for context, I'm leaving in two months -- I'll be serving in the Peace Corps in a small village in Africa and I don't expect to have internet. This IS my last game on here, and if I get banned, then so be it, but I can assure you I wasn't going to play scum for my last game. I'd rather be banned than waste my time doing something I hate.

[Shoshin]

I feel like Shoshin should be arguing why her play makes her town, but she’s chosen to completely ignore RC’s case on her in favor of the dumb angleshooty argument.

If you want me to address his case, I will. I mostly don't want to get in a back-and-forth with RC, so if I'm addressing it, it's going to be for your sake, not his.

I would like if you did

Point me to the specific posts #s you want me to address.

[Shoshin]

Do you realize that trust tells are bannable offenses and prone to modkill?

It's not a trust tell if it's restricted to a single game. It's just a dubious self-meta claim.

I tend not to believe people who say that they would break site rules.

I dont think it is anyway because RC mentioned she doing this "trust tell" as scum before.

I never did this as scum? I did it as town to argue I was town, because I was in fact town.

[Shoshin]

I’ll have to get the post numbers later.

But Shoshin, weren’t you the slot who said Nancy’s posts indicate that hydra is town? If not, do you agree with that?

I didn't say that, no. I don't agree that Nancy has towned herself yet. This feels much more like her scum hydra in RC's game, if you remember that? She was sort of awkward & clueless and posted much less than her usual town self because she was afraid to post (this coming from the scum PM that I was in).

[Shoshin]

Very difficult for me to take that as anything besides a hard scumclaim. I've seen Shoshin push the logic that she's confirmed town for picking up the role PM before

as town

but in that game she used it based on the fact that the game took several weeks to start and she would have just been done the game if she was scum, not based on the logic that literally her being present in a game was confirmation that she was town.

Yes, Sakura, you misread. RC is saying that I made this same argument in another game as town, not as scum. He distinguishes this game from that one by saying that the other game took a few weeks to start. This game, from my perspective, also took weeks to start. Like, I dunno. I signed up a month ago. If I was scum, I would have felt very comfortable just telling NSG that I couldn't stay in the game because it took too long to start, my schedule had changed, or something along those lines. It's not a difficult thing to do when that much time passes between signups and the start of the game. RC's entire distinction is utter bullshit.

[Shoshin]

shoshin, can u also give us baton candidates that aren't you or RC or the 3 lurkers with less posts than the mod?

I'd give baton to Sakura. Their approach to me the past couple pages has been very towny.

[Shoshin]

GIF head is gonna step out for few days.
Forward all questions to Bitty tyvm

That's unfortunate.

GIF is the one who has been in this specific spot before twice -- RC trying to lynch town me. I'd like to think GIF might have learned from these experiences & might have some insight to contribute. Maybe not.

[Shoshin]

I disagree with anyone who think angleshooty reasons are bad. They're a fine way to read other players, in my experience. And NSG sometimes uses them in her play, as far as I can tell, so why shouldn't I be able to use them in her game? If you don't like the reasons, then ignore them. But don't tell me not to offer them when I think they're a useful piece of information.

[Shoshin]

Bit, assume I'm town, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

uhh re: sakura

Its just a coincidence that I voted for shoshin when she said sakura was scum but I do recall asking her about sakura because I kinda wanted to prove a point to nancy that sakura was not obv town or something because she was saying something along the lines of ur throwing if u dont think sakura is town and im sitting here like bro wtf am i high or smthing i dont evn kno wtf how tf do u evn have a read let alone a strong ass read rn breh ok whatever imma see if evryone else holds the same opinion of her being obvtown so i can get a good ol sanity check but im pretty sure im sane and ur insane

Sakura has become very towny from her more recent posting. Review her interactions with me. Why would scum treat me that way?

[Shoshin]

No, Yuk. I don't like to give a read on RC until D2 unless I'm very positive about it.

[Shoshin]

Angleshooting about whether someone is likely to break site rules is not. We should always assume people are playing the game in good faith and that means obeying site rules.

I don't think it's against site rules to not confirm a scum PM & then not play any mafia games for over two years? Like, I dunno. Something about that seems acceptable to me.

[Shoshin]

I felt nothing town from RC, Yuk. His early discussion about mechanics is how he starts games as scum when mechanics are relevant -- it's not Ai. His disagreement with me about Wisdom was bad, especially since it wasn't explored at all; he didn't make any attempts to interact with me or understand where I'm coming from, which is very unusual for town him. I don't see anything towny about his play. Do you?

[Shoshin]

im not saying explititlyasdfasly

im saying deep down inside

when you just got this feeling that makes you dance in ur shoes

did you have that deep down feeling of a tingle of smthing

@shoshin if not clear wrt to cc read

I don't understand what you're asking.

[Shoshin]

I felt nothing town from RC, Yuk. His early discussion about mechanics is how he starts games as scum when mechanics are relevant -- it's not Ai. His disagreement with me about Wisdom was bad, especially since it wasn't explored at all; he didn't make any attempts to interact with me or understand where I'm coming from, which is very unusual for town him. I don't see anything towny about his play. Do you?

yeah im lil sus on him but idk if anyone else agrees w me

hey can u answer me this

u think that town can get a scum rc lynched? or do you need to be alive for that to happen

I have very little faith in town lynching RC, with or without me, but I think the chance of lynching him is much higher with me alive.

[Shoshin]

I wasn't thinking about the mechanics of the setup properly. I was choosing baton based on who I thought was statistically likely nightkill, not on who I thought was most valuable to town's chances of winning. I also don't think I have anywhere close to the name-recognition of others in this game so I imagined nobody would choose me over RC either way. You could say I'm a bit defeatist about things at times.

[Shoshin]

rc is town guys. Theres no reason to doubt that.

Why do you think RC's town?

[Shoshin]

i think your theory that they could be scum being coached to buddy me doesn't have legs, but i should point out that there is a small amount of supporting evidence for it, which is the "oh scum ceph is scary" post shoshin made. and i was weirded out by it at the time. i think this is less likely to be her trying to pocket me, though, than it is a possible response to some scumbuddy listing their impressions of every player and noting that i'm good.

The reason I said scum you was scary is because I don't feel confident reading you relative to other players in the game who have reputations for being scary scum (e.g. RC, who I feel much more confident reading), and because you play with a level of comfort that makes it hard to read your alignment. The idea that someone told me you were good scum is nonsense.

[Shoshin]

I still think that if she were town she'd be trying to change my read on her and sort my push on her as opposed to doing what she's doing, which is effectively playing the crowd.

To be clear, I'm very much trying to sort RC's push on me. I just don't have any desire to engage with him when he's being like this, especially since he's made no attempt to talk with me about the game at all when I tried.

[Shoshin]

i am starting to get towards wisdom-town, which makes me want to baton him. (oo look at my scary anti-CC scum agenda)

Why town Wisdom?

[Shoshin]

As of right now I'd suggest doing something like Gameplay/Wisdom.

I think it's somewhat absurd that RC calls me scum while basically sheeping my reads.

[Shoshin]

BoP isn't the best way to read RC, and town RC would never be okay with saying that.

[Shoshin]

When did Wisdom become scummy to you, RC?

[Shoshin]

When he started calling me locktown in a way that feels really fake trumped up and like he's trying to tie himself to me using extra words.

This feels like something you got from me.

[Shoshin]

I feel like I said that exact thing about Wisdom's townread on you.

[Shoshin]

Eh, I think I wrote out a post that didn't get posted in the flurry of posts at the time.

[Shoshin]

I wrote almost exactly what you said.

[Shoshin]

What's your read on SS, RC?

[Shoshin]

Your flip on Wisdom gives me a sense that you're trying to find enough common ground with me to make it unlikely I push your lynch, RC. Like, why didn't you agree with me about Wisdom when I first engaged you? Why'd you just brush me off? His play wasn't any better at the start of the game.

[Shoshin]

RC's accuracy is closer to 50% than 100%. It's still far above average, but you can't just BoP him hoping to get lucky.

[Shoshin]

I'm concerned about SS blindly sheeping. Why do you townread this, RC?

[Shoshin]

I'm concerned about SS blindly sheeping. Why do you townread this, RC?

I know for a fact that this is how he approaches games when he's town and I also am very confident in my ability to catch him as scum, see NSG's game.

Link? My impression in undertale was that he's more of an independent thinker.

[Shoshin]

Maybe we're using "worship" to mean different things then. I know that he knows Shoshin well, and I know that he has a high degree of accuracy in reading people he knows well.

If you think I'm putting him on a pedestal just because I think his reads are usually good, then I guess I am. But I'm not treating him qualitatively different from anyone else, I won't continue to listen to him if his Shoshin read turns out to be wrong, and I won't allow myself to get bullied by him against my better judgement.

RC's record at reading me isn't as good as it should be for how well he knows me. He repeatedly calls me scum when I'm town, and then doesn't call me scum when I'm scum.

[Shoshin]

then doesn't call me scum when I'm scum.

this is untrue and you know it to be untrue so I'm not sure why you're saying this.

Well, okay. In the last game, you called me scum. But then you called me town. Strong town. And you never revised the read before I killed you.

[Shoshin]

Well, okay. In the last game, you called me scum. But then you called me town. Strong town. And you never revised the read before I killed you.

I literally said I was going to stop giving a read on you because everyone was shitting on me for it and then I just placed a read without having to think about it.
I don't think that you can genuinely believe that I did not scumread you that entire game.

I genuinely thought you townread me after a certain point on D1. Yes, you scumread me early. But you do that in literally every game, so I don't take it seriously.

[Shoshin]

This is not an accurate representation of my history reading you.

Can you name a single game where you didn't scumread me early on?

[Shoshin]

The way people treat you, RC, is not entirely disconnected from the way you behave. Something to consider.

[Shoshin]

This is not an accurate representation of my history reading you.

Can you name a single game where you didn't scumread me early on?

Sure! Literally our last game

Oh wait I did push on you but I think even at the time I immediately stated that it was a reaction test, that I felt bad about it, and that I didn't want to go down that road.

You do it every game, RC. Every fucking game. I'm actually really tired of playing with you because of this. It's not fun.

[Shoshin]

I think RC's alignment will be clear before the end of this day.

[Shoshin]

The way you push me as town/scum is different, RC. This is what I'm looking at currently.

[Shoshin]

can't read my push on you if I don't have the mental energy to sustain my push.

Lack of mental energy to sustain the push is a town tell for you. The only one so far.

[Shoshin]

can't read my push on you if I don't have the mental energy to sustain my push.

Lack of mental energy to sustain the push is a town tell for you. The only one so far.

says the person who doesn't know any of my towntells?

You're saying I can't read you?

[Shoshin]

Who is Nancy?

[Shoshin]

Yes, I'm aware. She's been underwhelming, as I've already said.

[Shoshin]

Gameplay still feels like scum.

[Shoshin]

i somehow like that post despite/because of it being mostly unintelligible

Which post?

[Shoshin]

Are you actually arguing that it seems acceptable to dodge a game you signed up for because you don't want to play that role, trying to use that as an external advantage because your in game play apparently isn't even good enough for yourself? The "not play mafia games for over two years" is irrelevant unless you're referring to a ban you expect to get. Why would you not having internet access for two years excuse you from having to fall under the same standard as everyone else?

I don't want to spend more time on this so I'm dropping this discussion with you after this response. I don't care about upholding some standard that you believe we all have to adhere to. The only thing I care about is the integrity of the game, and me dodging a single game once before taking off for two years doesn't do any harm to the game or to anyone in the game as long as nobody knows what I'm doing. This applies in my case because I have dodged town games before when they have started weeks after signups, so me doing so in this game with that excuse would not have raised any suspicion. I'm only talking about it freely because it's actually my last game & there's no reason to hide this. You don't have to believe it, this piece of information isn't meant for everyone.

[Shoshin]

Also Shoshin, congratulations on Peace Corps! That’s amazing.
I applied but I did not get in

Thank you! I'm very excited about it.

And I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully it worked out for the best.

[Shoshin]

Please tell me that wasn't a hammer.

[Shoshin]

also without exception in the games me and shoshin have both been town in my reads have been superior and not by a small margin.

This is a massive lie. Your reads have not been better than mine except in one game. In others, we have the same reads or yours were worse (e.g. the time you townread NSG when I correctly scumread her).

[Shoshin]

As someone who's played scum against town!RC and town!Shoshin, I will defer that RC had significantly better reads even if he significantly more likely to piss off the entire playerbase.

Here's the thing about RC. He has better reads than me on D1, and I admit this. But on D2, my reads are consistently better than his, and they improve as the game goes on whereas his tend to get worse.

[Shoshin]

I agree with Wisdom as the second kill.

I'd also like the first few baton passes to be me, Sakura, Gay, Dann, and Nacho, to make sure we don't die.

[Shoshin]

you're such a fucking liar jesus christ
you know full well i scumread nsg the whole game. you know full well i had to call her town because i'd be lynched otherwise.
i had 3 scumreads outside of NSG and two of them were scum. i had poed 9 fucking players as town. including all the townies you incorrectly scumread, like varsoon.

Your recollection of these games is very different from mine, RC.

The only reason town kept NSG alive forever is because you townread her so strongly after I pushed her on D1. You saying that you scumread her doesn't comport with what you said in the game.

My townreads were entirely correct.

You're right that I incorrectly scumread Varsoon, but you incorrectly scumread Irrelehant. We're even on that score, except Irrelephant got mislynched, Varsoon didn't. In that sense, my incorrect read was less harmful than yours.

I was correct about Porkens, but you convinced me he wasn't scum because that's just how he plays. I was better than you on this front.

We were both suspicious of Gamma, who was scum.

Overall, my expressed reads were better than yours in that parts of the game you played.

[Shoshin]

Nacho's right. I need to stop talking about this.

[Shoshin]

We're even on that score, except Irrelephant got mislynched, Varsoon didn't. In that sense, my incorrect read was less harmful than yours.

Except when you townread Irrelephant, what did I do?
Part of my being good is that I know when to listen to people, you know.

Which is why I wrongly listened to you about NSG, because you kept saying you were always right about her. Learned my lesson there, which is not to trust you as much as you think you should be trusted.

[Shoshin]

Nacho's right. I need to stop talking about this.

heres something different to talk about

gameplay and yuk or gameplay and pm or gameplay and dann

Dann felt town to me, similar level of empathy he showed in another game when I came under pressure. I'm strongly against killing his slot.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, sorry about that Nacho. I'm done with this in game, it's just hard to resist emotionally once it gets going.

[Shoshin]

Why do you townread RC, Wisdom? I don't understand this, especially coming from you.

[Shoshin]

Dann is just unremarkable
Probably the fewest hints of towniness in his posts out of everyone because they're all boring

This hard to explain to anyone who doesn't experience his play from my perspective, but I get the sense he's genuinely trying to understand my play instead of playing with an agenda. The stuff he's concerned about, at the moments he shows those concerns, feels very towny to me. I can give some examples if you'd like.

[Shoshin]

Why do you townread RC, Wisdom? I don't understand this, especially coming from you.

you dont see clearly because of the heat but theres no real reason to think hes not town here
plus nancy

This doesn't explain why you strongly townread him. Like, there's a couple reasons to townread him here but I haven't seen anyone point them out.

What's Nancy done that's towny?

[Shoshin]

This is what I found towny from Dann:

Spoiler:

I find Wisdom's response to Shoshin a little scummy, although I'm not sure I buy her initial case.

What case? She just pointed to three posts and said nothing about why they make me scum. Whats scummy about asking for an explanation?

The explanation was she thought the self-awareness shown in those posts was a scum tell for you. I would've expected you to respond to that point instead of asking for clarification that was already given.

This mirrored my own thoughts.

It was a blanket statement but the YukzYuk part stuck out to me because they haven't really done anything I'd consider town indicative. I found it odd Shoshin would give them a town read just for that.

I thought this showed more nuance than I'd expect from scum Dann, especially since he had been townreading me at this point.

Then, this sequence, which is the part that reminds me of another game I played with Dann:

I feel like Shoshin should be arguing why her play makes her town, but she’s chosen to completely ignore RC’s case on her in favor of the dumb angleshooty argument.

I feel like Shoshin should be arguing why her play makes her town, but she’s chosen to completely ignore RC’s case on her in favor of the dumb angleshooty argument.

If you want me to address his case, I will. I mostly don't want to get in a back-and-forth with RC, so if I'm addressing it, it's going to be for your sake, not his.

I would like if you did

I’ll have to get the post numbers later.

But Shoshin, weren’t you the slot who said Nancy’s posts indicate that hydra is town? If not, do you agree with that?

This feels like he's sorting me in good faith. There's a sense that he wants me to be town, not scum. It's a subtle thing that I don't think Dann could fake as scum unless he knew I was looking for this, which now he will.

[Shoshin]

1259 was very wrong and showed he isn’t reading the game

So what? People make mistakes like this all the time as either alignment. I make these mistakes constantly. What interests me is the tone of his approach. Scum tend to question people they want dead in a very different way from a townie who hopes the player they're questioning is town.

[Shoshin]

Responses for Dann:

Spoiler:

Is Shoshin similar to the other game you mentioned in magical girls u pick where she was scum and you were town and she won?

On a surface level, she's very unlike that game and I think that she's intentionally trying to play unlike that game on a surface level.
In terms of what I'm reading here for, she's alike in the core sense that she's 'trying to imitate a meta' but it doesn't at all feel like something is actually there and it's all kind of a projection.

Like she's taking stances that she can justify to an extent but I don't think that they're actually how her reads would develop were she town and a lot of it feels like scum play in general.

I don't see anything here that needs much of a response. He says I'm different from when I play scum, but then says I'm still scum anyway. He says my reads aren't developing how he thinks they would, yet agrees with all my reads. It's vague & incoherent nonsense.

I guess we can pretend this game is so easy that we've already won if we want to make certain we lose

If we pretend we've already lost, will that make certain we win?

I'm going to sheep someone on Cephrir, just need to figure out who knows him best.

Look I can be fun or I can be spiteful the choice is yours

Would it reflect on your alignment at all?

Look I can be fun or I can be spiteful the choice is yours

Would it reflect on your alignment at all?

I'm not sure, I think I've done all four combinations

Was there a specific combination you preferred more as either alignment?

Thanks for the straight answer Cephrir. Do you have any reads yet?

Trying to avoid tackling the more subjective and more complicated metrics that make me think Shoshin/Cephrir is a SvS interaction
Shoshin decides she isn't going to try to read Cephrir (WHY?) and then spends 5 consecutive posts interacting with him.
The decision not to read him is weird scummy and makes sense coming from scum (doesn't want to have to take responsibility for a read) and the rest just feels like typical scum forcing interactions.

Even continuing the game, Cephrir's "I would vote Shoshin but my scumread is voting there" is super weird and super scumbuddyish.
I'm really just calling a spade a spade, this isn't some sort of megacomplicated read and I think that you guys would be seeing it if you were genuinely scumhunting these two.

I never said I wouldn't try to read Cephrir, or at least didn't mean that. The fact I engaged him early is evidence of that. RC's making a lot more out of my early posts than he should be, as most of them weren't that serious (I was in a joking mood at the start of the game, and that's not scummy for me).

I disagree with RC that Cephrir's "I would vote Shoshin but my scumread is voting there" is super weird. It's a pretty common pattern you see from townies, to the point where I've done it myself. If anything, it's odd that RC calls this scummy.

[Shoshin]

Wisdom/Gameplay is the best choice, yes. I've been saying this for a while.

[Shoshin]

I'd rather kill Oh than either of Dann or Yuk, just to put that out there.

[Shoshin]

I never said I wouldn't try to read Cephrir, or at least didn't mean that. The fact I engaged him early is evidence of that.

I feel like "I need to find someone to sheep on Cephrir" contradicts that though. Unless you're saying that was purely a joke?

It was a joke related to Ceph's post about disliking certain types of players who think their meta knowledge makes them pro. I don't sheep anyone, at least not in a pure sense.

[Shoshin]

Oh's reaction to me feels way over-the-top & fake.

[Shoshin]

I guess what I'm saying, RC, is that it's usually scum who get upset when a strong townie gets confirmed town. And that's what I'm feeling about Oh.

[Shoshin]

And I was right that the emotion was fake, he's "restraining" himself. Town woudln't be this upset, scum would be even more upset than he's letting on.

[Shoshin]

Just look at his crusade against self-voting earlier in the year for evidence.

I guess? I remember he was upset about my self-vote but not to the point of force replacing & banning. It's a different level.

[Shoshin]

I guess what I'm saying, RC, is that it's usually scum who get upset when a strong townie gets confirmed town. And that's what I'm feeling about Oh.

my experience says differently, although i can't grab examples for you off the top of my head

The times I've applied this tell, it's been correct. But for sure there will be examples where it's not. I think psychologically it's a valid tell, maybe not the strongest but definitely valid.

[Shoshin]

Hey Shoshin do we actually like each other? Or do we just put up with each other because we want to win games. I'm not sure anymore.

Do you want an honest answer to this?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Nacho

[Shoshin]

shoshin, do you think CC is scum here?

No.

[Shoshin]

I think town has a better chance of winning with Nacho than RC, Yuk. I find the clarity of thought in Nacho's analysis very towny & helpful to sorting my own thoughts, I like the way he's continued engaging Gameplay & his willingness to reevaluate, and his overall approach to the game is just much more productive than RC.

[Shoshin]

I agree on holding off on hammer, there's no rush.

[Shoshin]

If a majority agrees, we can at least use the the threat of force to make sure people pass accordingly.

[Shoshin]

Why are you scumreading me, Ank?

[Shoshin]

Apparently, my assertions constitute a trust tell according to some moderator. This is annoying me quite a lot at the moment.

RC, can you talk to me about the game assuming I'm town? I'm in a bad mood and would like to have a nice experience actually trying to game solve for a bit. You know, like in the games where we had fun together.

You're skeptical about Wisdom's flip? Why? Who do you think is more likely scum if not Wisdom?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, I feel like Wisdom would be fighting his Lynch harder as scum instead of almost just keeping over like he is now..

That's a fair point. He seems to have given up, which isn't typical of scum him -- is that something you've seen him do as town?

[Shoshin]

Apparently, my assertions constitute a trust tell according to some moderator. This is annoying me quite a lot at the moment.

RC, can you talk to me about the game assuming I'm town? I'm in a bad mood and would like to have a nice experience actually trying to game solve for a bit. You know, like in the games where we had fun together.

You're skeptical about Wisdom's flip? Why? Who do you think is more likely scum if not Wisdom?

I think wisdom is like... 5th or 6th most scum equity right now.

Can you talk to me about this?

[Shoshin]

Giving up is usually a scum tell, though.

[Shoshin]

Could be a town tell for Wisdom, not sure. It's something to check.

[Shoshin]

can we like not lynch Wisdom today?

im calling a united nations meeting

My favorite alternative is SS but Nacho is townreading SS

I had a bad feeling about SS earlier.

[Shoshin]

Which posts didn't you like from SS, RC?

[Shoshin]

I don't want to kill Ceph.

[Shoshin]

I'm open to SS over Wisdom.

[Shoshin]

Jeezus, moderation on this site is terrible. It's making me not want to play this game out.

[Shoshin]

Everything is an outside influence. That's basically just saying we're going to arbitrarily decide to punish people whenever we see fit, with no meaningful guidance for players about what's actually acceptable.

[Shoshin]

I think there's a decent chance RC is scum & this game is lost.

[Shoshin]

I'd also say Yuk is almost certainly town if he's Oka.

[Shoshin]

My reads look something like this:

Town

Nacho
Sakura
Yuk
Oversoul
Dann
Oh

Gay
Ceph
SS
PM
Goodies

RC

Wisdom
Kagami

Scum

[Shoshin]

You're wrong about Oh, Oversoul. There's no way that slot is scum here.

[Shoshin]

Why aren't you engaging me about the game, RC? Why do you keep trying to sew paranoia about me?

[Shoshin]

Why aren't you engaging me about the game, RC?

Because I can only hurt town by sharing my reads today.

Why do you keep trying to sew paranoia about me?

Mildly hypocritical given your a few posts ago, no?

This is what you say when you're scum. Why are you saying these things?

[Shoshin]

Oh is doing now what Cephrir was doing and it was causing me to get a false positive.

What do you think of that reads list that Gameplay posted and the readlist that Goodies posted?

I find it very unlikely that Ank ever plays this way as scum. Her feelings with respect to RC are genuine town feelings, and it's very unlikely she'd feel the same as scum.

Gameplay's reads feel empty. It's not something I'd put too much weight on, except to say it's likely partners would be spread across town and scum, not grouped together.

Where did Goodies post a readlist?

[Shoshin]

RC as town in every game I've ever played: "I need to solve the game on D1 and make sure everyone follows my reads."

"Shoshin is not someone I'd lynch unless you haven't won by LYLO, in which case you can consider lynching her. She should always be given a chance to lynch the scum because if she's town she likely will."

--

RC as scum in every game I've ever played: "I don't want to tell you my reads because reasons."

"Shoshin is scum, we must lynch her or town will lose."

--

This feels a lot more likely scum RC than town RC.

[Shoshin]

This is what you say when you're scum. Why are you saying these things?

No, this is what I on one occasion have said as scum because I was imitating my town meta of playing my cards face down in certain situations of which this is one. This is not what I 'say as scum'. There is nothing that I 'say as scum' that doesn't have a basis in my town play. This is a lazy read and if this is the best you have you have no business asserting the ability to read me.

You're the one who earlier in the game was acting like I can't read you. Why would you say that when you literally correctly scumread me in the last game for misreading you?

[Shoshin]

The sense I get is that you don't want to engage with me, RC. And that's scum you, not town you.

[Shoshin]

Reading me is actually hard, who would have thought it?

Why are you downplaying the idea that I can read you?

[Shoshin]

As for your being hypocritical, you are the

sole

player to go out of your way to express an ability to read me and are the

sole

player in this game incorrectly scumreading you.
I am therefore led to believe that either 1) you are expressing a falsehood in your ability to read me or 2) you are scum.

Which one should I be taking as true here?

This applies to you, not me.

You hold yourself out as the sole player in the game able to read me, per your statement that the town will lose to me if you are killed. And then you incorrectly scumread me.

Should I believe that you are scum (as you usually are when you scumread me this late in the game), or town who is wrong?

I'm pretty sure the first thing I said after our last game was that I was done giving your spot any special treatment.
As for the stalling in giving reads... my sense of urgency is to force meaningful damage to scum in the time I have alive.

This phase's lynch is already set (so I don't need to change it) and I plan to give my reads for the lynch (so I will be giving my reads before they can meaningfully impact anything.)
I think it's very clear why this would be my approach to the game here and the fact that I have done it as scum is better evidence than anything else that this is something that I'd do as town.
I didn't win my scum games by doing things as scum that I don't do as town. The question isn't what it's why and if you're not asking that question you can't read me.

This isn't my understanding of your town/scum play. Yes, you do things as scum that you also do as town, but you also do things as scum that you don't do as town. I'm referring to the latter.

You're either bullshitting me right now or you're not as self-aware as you think. Either way, I find it suspect that you'd spend this much time justifying trying to hide your reads as town.

Why do you think that I don't want to talk to you in this game?

When I've tried engaging you about the game, you've repeatedly brushed me off. You've kept yourself very distant from any interactions with me, any attempt to talk about reads, etc. You know, the stuff we usually do as town that leads us to catching all the scum? That stuff, you've very clearly been trying not to do. Which, again, is how you treated me only as scum, never as town.

It's either I do this or I call you scum. Which should I be doing?

You've been doing both, which doesn't make sense when I haven't been saying you're scum at all until this moment.

Why would you say I can't read you when I wasn't calling you scum? That's my question. And why would you say that while calling me scum at the same time? It feels like you've been acting as thought I scumread you all game, which clearly hasn't been the case.

[Shoshin]

I don't think you've even engaged me once the entire game, RC. It's very different from how you treat me when you're town. There's no sense of hope that I could be town, just an agenda to push my lynch.=

[Shoshin]

Like you literally cannot simultaneously assert that you can read me and that you are town here. given that I'm town at least one of them is a falsehood.
would you prefer that I take you at your word that you can read you and jump up and down saying that you're confirmed scum for it?

You were downplaying the idea that I can read you when I was reading you as town. Why?

[Shoshin]

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=80198

[Shoshin]

Because you can't. I don't think this needs much more of a response. It's not an agenda thing, it's literally a you can't read me as town and I'm no longer motivated to pretend otherwise thing.

Why have you repeatedly said in other contexts that I'm able to read you? What changed? What makes you believe I can't?

Why do you always act like I can't read you when you're scum (e.g. Fire, Open) & then say I'm able to read you when you're town (e.g. every game we've been town together)?

Are you saying that this difference has nothing to do with your alignment, and that all this time you've been lying as town and telling the truth as scum about my ability to read you?

[Shoshin]

I never thought you scumread me, as evidenced by me citing Cephrir as the sole person incorrectly scumreading me earlier, and the fact that you have a correct read doesn't mean that you can read me in a general case, it means that in this particular game it's hard to read me wrong. Somehow you've managed to do it anyway?

You're widely townread as both alignments in virtually every game I've ever seen. The idea that you're easier to read this game than others is nonsense.

[Shoshin]

Even in the last game I played with RC, where I was scum and he was town, he called me scum because I wasn't townreading him yet. He wasn't saying that I was scum because I called him scum, he was saying I was scum because I didn't townread him as quickly as he expected. But then he comes into this game and says I don't have the ability to read him.

This doesn't square.

[Shoshin]

I never thought you scumread me, as evidenced by me citing Cephrir as the sole person incorrectly scumreading me earlier, and the fact that you have a correct read doesn't mean that you can read me in a general case, it means that in this particular game it's hard to read me wrong. Somehow you've managed to do it anyway?

You're widely townread as both alignments in virtually every game I've ever seen. The idea that you're easier to read this game than others is nonsense.

I'm easier to read this game for the simple reason that I am absolutely fucking done as scum and would not be spending this much time in thread.

This is a lie. You've said this before and then proceeded to hyper-post all the same as a fake town-tell. You did it in the Open game where I caught you, for example, and even there I was having some doubts about your alignment just based on how actively engaged with the game you were.

[Shoshin]

You did it in the Open game where I caught you,

this never happened. you mean the one where you were horribly toxic to me until i replaced out and never actually went after my slot? i do remember that one.

Are you kidding me? I straight-up said you were scum over & over, but just couldn't get anyone to even consider lynching you, because, you're you.

I disagree that I was toxic to you.

[Shoshin]

Are you kidding me? I straight-up said you were scum over & over, but just couldn't get anyone to even consider lynching you, because, you're you.

I disagree that I was toxic to you.

you literally called me a shitty person and a few other things beside, after I complained to you about you attacking me personally in FOTM.
you did call me scum at one point but then you backed off on it and didn't cop my slot.

I never backed off calling you scum that game. You were in my top two scumreads the entire game, in a game with three scum.

[Shoshin]

No, you weren't. Shall I start grabbing quotations from the game or are we going to move past that?

You're delusional, RC.

You call NSG town, and then pretend you called her scum.

I call you scum, and then you pretend I call you town.

I don't even know why you're lying about these things. I guess it protects your ego or something, I dunno. Your obsession with winning is probably the most toxic thing I've encountered on this site.

[Shoshin]

Scum RC lied about me in Open 756 the same way he's lying about me here, btw. It's one of the things that exposed him as scum there.

[Shoshin]

Like after certain point y'all's back-and-forth devolved to "you can/can't read me"

This is the relevant scum-tell at issue here.

[Shoshin]

Oversoul, take a look at Open 756. This is the game we're talking about.

[Shoshin]

I never said this. I said the things that I said. If you take my statement and change the statement to one with a different meaning, you're no longer responding to my statement.

Find the quotation where I retracted a scumread on you.

[Shoshin]

RC engaged this same pattern of behavior in Open 756, where he started lying about my play in Fire. He doesn't lie about me like this when he's town.

[Shoshin]

You claim you caught me. I claim you put me in your broader lynchpool but never actually posed any sort of threat to me and when push came to shove you used your cops on other players.
If your definition of caught encompasses that and the fact that you would have been forced to out or been lynched had you not personally attacked me to the point that I left the game, sure.

Also, you claimed top two scumreads all game. I claim that there's literally no evidence for you scumreading me on Day 1 and a lot of stuff that I see as evidence that you townread me on day 1.
I also claim that the vigor of your Worm push is incompatible with me being a higher scumread than them, as is the fact that you didn't cop me, as is the fact that you resorted to attacking me out of game for what would then be playing to my wincondition. If you're claiming that's not incompatible with thinking that I'm scum, that's even worse tbh.

My top scumreads were very clearly you & Egix.

I voted Egix.

I said that Worm was scum solely by association to you & Egix, not because he was independently scummy. The idea that I thought he was scummier than you is comically absurd.

I pushed Egix lynch because lynching you was impossible. It's a pragmatic decision that has nothing to do with thinking you weren't scum.

Egix was scum, so it's not like I was going in the wrong direction.

You allegedly replaced out of the game because I called your behavior "shitty," and I called your behavior "shitty" because you were gaslighting other players, saying that the game wasn't deserving of your time or energy, and trying to shut me up, all of which I consider "shitty."

[Shoshin]

I also claim that the vigor of your Worm push is incompatible with me being a higher scumread than them, as is the fact that you didn't cop me, as is the fact that you resorted to attacking me out of game for what would then be playing to my wincondition.

I didn't attack you out of game. That's a lie. You've attacked me personally outside of games, like when you insulted me after I beat you as scum. I've only ever said kind things to you outside of games.

[Shoshin]

You allegedly replaced out of the game because I called your behavior "shitty," and I called your behavior "shitty" because you were gaslighting other players, saying that the game wasn't deserving of your time or energy, and trying to shut me up, all of which I consider "shitty."

Game not deserving of my time and energy shitty? Maybe. But you didn't call my gameplay shitty, you said I was being a shitty person.
Gaslighting other players and trying to shut you up is literally playing my wincondition.

I was referring to your behavior in the game, and I was asking you to stop. I didn't say you were a shitty person in general.

I'm not going to go back through the game again but the readslist I remember seeing, at the peak of your scumread on me, had Worm and myself in the same category.
Also, what exactly do you think happens if that game plays out? You get outed as cop, Worm gets lynched, he flips town. You think anyone gives a fuck what your read is on me after that?
That's not caught.

Your recollection is wrong. I expressly had you/Egix as my top scumreads, with Worm as scum by association, nothing more. You don't like that reality so you delude yourself into believing it's not true. Or you're just straight-up lying right now, which seems more likely given what you said about Fire in Open 756 (the same pattern of lying about my reads on you).

And to be clear, the fact that I was able to read you has nothing to do with my ability to get you lynched. Those are two separate things that you're confusing.

We talked about this and you apologized for it at the time. Am I to take this as a scumclaim as well?

I apologized because I understood that you took it personally in a way that I didn't intend. That doesn't change the fact that my intent wasn't what you thought it was, and you've made no attempt to understand why my words could be interpreted differently than you did. You continue to say I treated you "horribly toxic," when that isn't at all how I felt nor what I intended. I wish you wouldn't ascribe that intent to me, especially in light of my apology, but I guess not.

[Shoshin]

I didn't attack you out of game. That's a lie. You've attacked me personally outside of games, like when you insulted me after I beat you as scum. I've only ever said kind things to you outside of games.

Insult = you didn't really deserve that win because that town was playing like fucking morons? that's literally all I said. that's not a personal attack.

Yes, saying someone doesn't deserve a win is insulting to their humanity. If you win, you deserve it. It's especially insulting because you knew it was my first scum win and meant a lot to me.

[Shoshin]

And when I tried talking to you about it... I guess you decided you'd rather ignore my humanity for the sake of keeping up the insult.

[Shoshin]

It's amazing to me that RC can call a bunch of players "fucking morons," but when someone says anything negative about him, it's the end of the world, worthy of replacing out of a game.

[Shoshin]

Going to cherry pick some quotes adjacent in ISO:

If Egix is town, maybe Eyes/Worm/Titus as scum? I don't know.

Creature, please put your vote on someone more useful than yourself.

Worm or Egix are good options.

I think that it is objectively difficult to make a reading of the game that your read on Worm was solely based on associatives with me.
Like even starting with that as a basis that I am trying to look for that is not a reasonable reading of the game.
There's also still no indication that you scumread me on Day 1, but let's move past that.

It's amazing to me that RC can call a bunch of players "fucking morons," but when someone says anything negative about him, it's the end of the world, worthy of replacing out of a game.

The way I see it attacking people's mafia playing ability and intellect as it pertains to mafia is the sole type of protected personal attack that falls cleanly within the rules.
I think calling someone a shitty person is outside of that.

I apologized because I understood that you took it personally in a way that I didn't intend. That doesn't change the fact that my intent wasn't what you thought it was, and you've made no attempt to understand why my words could be interpreted differently than you did. You continue to say I treated you "horribly toxic," when that isn't at all how I felt nor what I intended. I wish you wouldn't ascribe that intent to me, especially in light of my apology, but I guess not.

I don't think this actually changes much given I explicitly told you at the end of fire on the mountain that you making similar comments made me feel very shitty put me off the game.

Those quotes don't show what you think they show:

Worm's mostly associations to Egix/RC & of course poe. I'm not confident on this.

Not confident on Worm. Mostly association.

This is roughly where I'm at on reads:

Town

Fumuki
Celica
GIF
NSG
Eyes
Emperor
Creature
Worm
RC
Egix

Scum

Very clearly you & Egix.

Egix/you were scum. Worm was an associative read that I was wrong about. You were unlynchable, so I had no choice but to advocate Egix or Worm. Nobody wanted to lynch Egix either. So I was eventually left with Worm.

[Shoshin]

Straight up about to replace out if Shoshin and Cici keep talking about who has historically been more correct. Literally, no one cares.

Oversoul, you need to understand that this is a scum-tell for RC. I will make an extensive meta post about this if I need to.

[Shoshin]

The way I see it attacking people's mafia playing ability and intellect as it pertains to mafia is the sole type of protected personal attack that falls cleanly within the rules.
I think calling someone a shitty person is outside of that.

To be clear, I understand that you think calling someone "shitty" in the context of a mafia game is a personal attack. I apologized for this, and told you I won't do it again. But to be clear, it was NEVER meant as a personal attack. I was trying to describe your behavior in the game, which was shitty because, well, you were scum.

[Shoshin]

I'm taking a break, I'll come back later.

[Shoshin]

Ignore if you aren't RC:

Spoiler:

3) Interacting with you in the way that you want to be interacted to see that I'm town with takes a significant amount of my mental resources and my time. It's one thing in a micro where I don't actually have all that much else to do in the game. It's another thing entirely when there's 16 other people and I'm the primary one staying the course on an important lynch. It doesn't help that you didn't support me on pushing for the batonlynches, making sure Sakura's threat didnt change the lynch, and other things that ended up eating significant chunks of my time and that were demonstrably anti-town in a way that you should have seen as anti-town. Saying something like 'yawn these mechanic talks are boring' when I'm literally preventing the game from being a loss before it starts at significant effort costs for me isn't just annoying, it's thoughtless.

Fuck off. I was very clearly supporting batonlynches. Calling the mechanics "boring" was because I didn't want to spend time on the obvious, not because I didn't support the obvious.

4) Shoshin, those quotes are vastly later in the game than the ones I presented, are two posts apart, and are at the point in the game where I already acknowledged that you had called me scum. If I went earlier rather than later than the ones I presented there's tons of posts where you were scumreading worm but not me, and after my replace out you didn't out a specific scumread on my slot before you died. There's still the entirety of D1 matter. I have no intentions of further engagement on this.

My reads were identical at the time of your posts & the ones I quoted. There's not "tons of posts" where I scumread Worm but not you, that's a lie. You quoted a post that showed me supporting an Egix/Worm lynch, as opposed to your lynch, but ignore the fact your lynch wasn't going to happen. You quote a post where I don't scumread you under the assumption that Egix was town, but again, that's a false assumption that dramatically changes the game and you know this. The point is that my actual reads were you/Egix as scum, and that was very clearly expressed in the game throughout. You don't have to like the fact that I correctly read you in that game, but fuck off with your delusions that I didn't. This is very dehumanizing. You don't have to use insults to be toxic.

[Shoshin]

Straight up about to replace out if Shoshin and Cici keep talking about who has historically been more correct. Literally, no one cares.

Oversoul, you need to understand that this is a scum-tell for RC. I will make an extensive meta post about this if I need to.

I understand that you think that. But the game you yourself linked as the most event mutual town game shows this is not a fool proof meta. For the record, i am assuming you’re saying the refusal to give reads is a scum tell.

I understand you think this, but I think Cici is town. I am willing to throw you a bone and give Nacho the BP, but Cici is never going to get lynched or baron killed today. We can revisit it tomorrow if either of you are alive.

For now, assume he is town.

No, the scum-tell is him pretending that I have no ability to read him. He needs to do this as scum because admitting that I can read him means admitting he should be lynched when I flip town, and he can't afford that as scum. I have a lot of evidence to support this tell, specifically he always admits I can read him when he's town (and even uses that fact to scumread me when I'm scum), but then pretends I can't read him when he's scum (in both Fire & Open 756). In the game you read, RC admits that I can read him. Compare that to this game.

I called him out on this, so now RC's claiming that he actually was lying in all those town games and telling the truth in all those scum games. Think about that for a second.

[Shoshin]

But whatever. RC won't get lynched, it's impossible unless I lynch his partners first. This is why I didn't push RC in Open 756.

[Shoshin]

Pass: Gay Dance