Freelancer Mafia - Game Over!

[Macavenger]

How are we supposed to kill DGB N0 if there isn't a N0?

/confirm

[Macavenger]

You people are like rabid mad dogs. Five pages in less than a day.

Also, an important attribute of humour is that it is funny. Then again, your starting location is the 'German' sector, which may explain your difficulty with the concept.

Since when are British people allowed to accuse others of not having a sense of humor?

Moving on to serious business:

FoS: strife220, chensi

No lynch is just as bad an idea in this game as any other, possibly worse. There are clearly scum in this game, otherwise we wouldn't be playing. They need to die. While the first night phase probably will help town understand what's going on a bit better, giving scum a free night phase is a terrible idea, especially since it appears some or all of the scumgroups may have cult-like attributes.

Just saying we're trying to lynch 'scum' doesn't apply like in normal mafia, because we don't know what scum are trying to do.

Theme game or not, we're still playing mafia. There can be slips, or people who appear to be acting against the interests of the town. Lynching them is the town weapon and needs to be used.

I'm also feeling like there have to be protown players with the ability to give out missions. Otherwise it's just silly.

For now, Iron Man seems to know a fair bit more about the setup than I do. This is an acceptable game-starting wagon.

Vote: Iron Man

[Macavenger]

Interesting point on the progressive retconning there, vollkan.

Do not like the way Iron Man is reacting to this wagon. Exploding is not protown.

[Macavenger]

Ironman hinted at the freelancer win condition, and the faction's. Guessing the faction WC wouldn't be hard, but neither is guessing the freelancer WC terribly hard. You should get some credit for freelancer WC, but if he's posted both then he clearly is guessing one of them. However, his response to the pressure on him has been poor and vollkan summed up his changing tune well, so:

Vote: Iron Man

Is it just me, or is this statement self-contradicting?

I wouldn't call it self-contradicting, but it seems awfully wishy-washy and WIFOM.

I'm gonna have to agree with most of the people so far, and say that Iron Man, you seem to know a lot more about the game than the rest of us. I don't know if there is a majorly informed minority, but i don't see any other way you could be so informed.

vote: Iron Man

This feel like a rather opportunistic vote on Iron Man to anyone else?

[Macavenger]

Agree with Cavane. Iron Man has been reacting to the wagon by getting angry and trying to retcon his initial statement, in my view. I fail to see how that's a good reaction to a wagon. I think one or two specific people have jumped on the wagon in questionable ways, but the wagon itself looks pretty good for early Day 1 to me.

If I stated my WC, I would die at night. Not at day, but at night. Definitely. No doubt about it.

Muh?

[Macavenger]

Shteven, you seem awfully certain that scum don't have a copy of the town win condition. Why is that?

[Macavenger]

armlx: in a trad game, it's never the right choice. In a "choose your own victory conditions; you can win by eliminating crooks but you can also win other ways?" Well, that's a bit different, isn't it?

The flaw with this is, as I understand the mechanics, the factions have to make you an offer before you can join them. What if they don't? That's going to suck when you're stuck with that backup townie win condition you aren't working for today. Right now, the win condition is that criminal factions be eliminated, and that's what we should be playing for.

Iron Man coming out in firm support of no lynch here makes me feel really good about this wagon again.

[Macavenger]

Luigi and Snaps are scum. Ironman has at least 2 scum on his wagon.

Explain. What are you saying that makes you say they are scum?

[Macavenger]

Mac, its a feeling on Luigi. I could try putting it into words, but that would be hard.
And Snaps, I've detailed already and its a information meta-argument that is unaffected by MOS' revelation, unlike 99% of the info-meta-arguments put forth today.

Going to ignore your thoughts on Luigi until they can be put into words, then.

I reread Snaps. Not really seeing your arguments against him. I get no impression that he knows more about the setup than I do, and I don't see how the way he's been speculating is particularly scummy.

I also reread Iron Man, and continue to like this wagon. His 'guess' at the faction win condition that he 'made up' does not look like either a guess or something he made up. He just stated that the "factions can win when all other factions are dead," without qualifiers. How would he know this? Since we assume some factions are good and some aren't, why would all other factions need to be dead? How would he know this for certain? Why 'speculate' on the faction win condition this way? None of this adds up. Combined with the recent No Lynch vote, I'm really happy with where my vote is for now.

[Macavenger]

I don't consider Iron Man's supposed faction win condition to be obvious in this setup, either.

[Macavenger]

1) It's DrippingGoo

f

ball
2) She's V/LA until July 8, and posted so in this thread, as well as many other places
3) You may have a point about Flameaxe
4) Why not mention Xtoxm as well? He's barely posted
(speaking of which,

Mod:

prod Xtoxm please?)
5) Your rather pathetic attempt to go after lurkers to get the wagon pointed somewhere else is noted.

[Macavenger]

These could easily be the actions of scum desperately trying to save himself, or just as easily an innocent attempting to avoid lynching. For now I am leaning toward the latter.

What makes you think that? A townie should have been making some attempt to scumhunt the wagon on him by now, especially since he doesn't seem to think the wagon has any merit. The fact that he hasn't even remotely tried to find scum on his wagon, instead just trying to turn attention anywhere else, looks like desperate scum to me.

[Macavenger]

You are right. If he is town, Iron Man SHOULD be scumhunting his wagon and if he is scum, he sould be trying to appear to be doing that.
Just because he is not doesn't prove or disprove scummyness, it's just bad play.

Bad play with legitimate anti-town reasoning is also scummy play. What makes you think he's town?

[Macavenger]

I was just pointing out that his play may be bad, but not necessarily scummy. Why are you pushing so hard for this lynch?


Looking at that wagon, Cavebear has yet to explain why she put her vote there. (See post 232)

Stop avoiding the question. What about his play makes you think he's town? The arguments you've put forth here are all claiming that his play is a null tell, but you think he's town. Why?

[Macavenger]

Fonz does raise a very good point.

Unvote; Vote: chensi

I still want to hear answers from Snaps, though. Do not like his recent posting at all.

[Macavenger]

Unvote; Vote: Iron Man

Returning to regularly scheduled programming now that chenhsi has claimed.

[Macavenger]

I don't see how this follows. I think a lot of us are fairly confused, but we're still contributing thoughts and attempting to work out who the scum are, as best we're able. You're saying you're confused, and this somehow exempts you from having to contribute?

[Macavenger]

Simul'd by vollkan, that was directed at ZONEFACE.

[Macavenger]

Re ZONEACE:

This all strikes me as a bit too lurker-lynch-esque. He isn't posting analysis; that's apparent. And, yes, if it persists for a protracted length of time (we are still in early game, given the number of players) then there is a scummy problem. I'd suggest, however, that pursuing an easy lynch (because that's what ZONEACE is atm) is not a good way to start the game. I'm not enamoured of ZONEACE's play, but it's not worth having a fit about this early on.

Somewhat agree, which is why I'm still voting Iron Man while challenging Zone to participate more. If this active lurking continues into Day 2 though, it'll be worth a much harder look than the current, "so, how about some analysis?"

Also, agree with ZONEACE on his response to gobo's point 2.

[Macavenger]

Re ZONEACE:

This all strikes me as a bit too lurker-lynch-esque. He isn't posting analysis; that's apparent. And, yes, if it persists for a protracted length of time (we are still in early game, given the number of players) then there is a scummy problem. I'd suggest, however, that pursuing an easy lynch (because that's what ZONEACE is atm) is not a good way to start the game. I'm not enamoured of ZONEACE's play, but it's not worth having a fit about this early on.

Somewhat agree <snip>

Only somewhat? What don't you agree with

Mainly the bit that it's not worth having a fit over (though I'd choose slightly different terms). He's been found actively lurking, he should be pressured into posting content. I agree it wasn't worth lynching him over on the spot by any means, but if he continues to not participate under pressure, it can become worthwhile.

armlx, I'm curious what you do think is worth going after in this game? I can't really tell from your posting so far. You voted snaps for a while, unvoted him after a reply, then claimed to still not like his posts after that. You're now still voting chenhsi despite his claim, unless I missed something. Is there no one you find worth lynching in this game?

[Macavenger]

I'm not really sure right now given the noise level from the whole "slip" issue. I thought Shteven was, but he showed that was his normal behavior. Zoneace is probably the most scummy to me, but I don't think what he is doing now goes very far above his normal behavior and might even be a town tell for him depending on somethings I'm looking into.....

And I did look into those. I now think Zoneace's flip out is a larger scum tell then it would be in the abstract (based on ongoing, so I won't go into it beyond this).

Vote Zoneace

Wow, that's a pretty abrupt reversal. I find it rather interesting that when I basically challenge you to take a position, you suddenly take one aligned with a growing bandwagon that you've been criticizing up to that point.

FoS: armlx

[Macavenger]

I find it rather interesting that when I basically challenge you to take a position, you suddenly take one aligned with a growing bandwagon that you've been criticizing up to that point.

It's called hiding behind the crowd

I dont think this even requires a response on how scummy it is.

I think it does, actually, because I'm not seeing that quote from ZONEACE as being scummy. Why do you think it is?

[Macavenger]

Scum distancing ahoy!

Who are you claiming is distancing from whom?

He's clearly stating that he refuses to make an opinion of his own and stand his ground. He's saying that he is only willing to take an opinion if he isnt the point of blame for it. He's looking to slide through without willing to bust some knuckles to make a point. He has no real conviction.

I find it really odd that you're attacking ZONEACE over that comment, because it's a pretty accurate description of armlx's play, and is pretty much taking a stance by calling him scummy. Why choose that when there are other, more legitimate things to be attacking ZA for?

[Macavenger]

ZONEACE is pretty clearly winning this argument, though. Glad I left my vote on Iron Man.

Iron Man is pushing this way too hard, to the point of making some things up now. Already commented on his thought on the hiding in the crowd comment, and these last couple posts are just bad. He's not tunnel visioning on you and Xtoxm, he's been looking at a bunch of people on his wagon, and he pretty much destroyed your "full case" statement with that quote.

Pretty sure Iron Man is scum trying to get the other easy target lynched so that it's not him.

[Macavenger]

Still liking Iron Man lynch far better than ZA lynch. The way Iron Man is exaggerating and stuff to push the ZA lynch is really pretty bad.

I'll also concede that you are now participating. You've stopped lurking and are keeping up a good posting level, so you've got my participation argument shot, I'll give you that. I'm still not comfortable with your general attitude, though. In all of your posts your still not pulling a full shift. You've got a nice case of tunnel vision and refuse to take any other players into account other than xtomx and myself.

Here he pretty much admits his case is gone, but he's trying to get Zone lynched anyway. This is pretty much totally not OK in my book.

I'd also like to see people other than armlx voting for Zone explain their reasons. Did you all go meta ZA like he did, or are you using other arguments or just following the bandwagon?

[Macavenger]

Actually, at this juncture I'm inclined to returned to my earlier

unvote, vote: Ashmite

This for active lurking/saying nothing/some derivative thereof?

[Macavenger]

I’m still not convinced that Iron Man is scum. The whole case against him seems to be based on his supposed knowledge of faction win conditions. The case against Iron Man is a house of cards.

There's also the scummy way he's been pushing the ZONEACE lynch that I've been talking about in several posts recently.

[Macavenger]

IF you don't like either of the main wagons, I'd expect you to be more proactive in finding and pushing one that you do.

So Fonz, you're not on either of the main wagons, but don't seem to have made any effort to push your Ashmite wagon that I can see. Why is that?

[Macavenger]

Do you approve or disapprove of Snaps? You said both recently.

[Macavenger]

As a townie, I have strength in numbers. If I'm lynched today, it's no big deal, for instance, because first I expect we'll lynch a townie on Day 1, and second, we are many more townies.

If I were scum, and faced dying on Day 1, I'd be much more upset. I'd fell like I'm letting my buddies down, and very soon the scum team will be reduced in numbers, making a win more difficult. Plus, I'd be bound to leave some clues and maybe accidentally give away a buddy or two.

That's why scum gets really upset when they are wagoned early and "unfairly." Of course, the Day 1 case against Zoneace is not exactly rock-solid (like any Day 1 case), but his reaction is most telling.

So how is the instance of ZONEACE doing this when he has a reputation of yelling his nuts off and going ape in just about every game worse than Iron Man doing it when he got wagoned earlier? The progressive leaning into the "I f***in made it up!" outburst was pretty bad.

Also very worth noting is Iron Man basically kicking and screaming while he was the vote leader, then rapidly leaping on and pushing a lurker wagon (ZONEACE) when it conveniently showed up. After pushing that really, really hard, he disappears for a couple days once ZONEACE becomes the main wagon, then shows back up to hop OFF the wagon he pushed like crazy, on to an innocuous lurker wagon (Xtoxm) that's clearly going nowhere and won't tie him to anything later.

Compared to ZA who's done a relatively standard ZA explosion and at least kind of scumhunted his wagon, participating about as much as he ever does. Why the hell does ZONEACE have more votes than Iron Man? I don't get it. I'm not saying ZONEACE is an angel here or anything, but Iron Man's reactions today are all pretty much classic scum IMO.

[Macavenger]

I assume IM and Zone still have the most votes? Will try to do a quick skim of them again before the weekend ends and pick the scummiest.

My rough go at a count has 8 for IM, 4 for Zone. I could easily be off, especially since there are still errors in the last official vote count. Pretty sure they're still the top two.

[Macavenger]

No.

[Macavenger]

I think you'll find, dahling, that I posted precisely once since my Ashmite vote. I think it's a little early to conclude that I'm 'not pushing it,' n'est-ce pas?

I was kind of expecting you to push it in the post you first started it, especially if you were going to be taking that kind of attitude towards pushing wagons.

Scum are often angrier than townies when they feel they are being wagoned "for no reason." It's a medium-sized scumtell in my book, and a medium scumtell is good enough when the player in question is a nuisance to the game. The pros outweigh the cons.

So wrong. I get angry every so often, but only ever when I'm town. When you're scum, you expect to be attacked: when you're town, by definition you believe that everything you're doing is in its interests, so it hacks you off when someone tries to paint it as something else.

I would suggest that this varies based on the player, and shouldn't be used as a universal tell. I personally find myself more likely to get emotional if I'm attacked as scum, especially if it's for a "stupid" reason, like the initial "WC slip" thing that Iron Man got in trouble for. Your view seems to be in the minority from what I've seen Fonz, although I've never done any form of true testing on that.

Your case on ashmite is fairly compelling. I'm going to stick with Iron Man today, partly because of critical mass and approaching deadline issues, and because I think the two are fairly equivalent at this point. I would agree that you've found something to possibly look at tomorrow, though.

[Macavenger]

IM is L-2 by my count.

[Macavenger]

Whether or not that's literally what the prod said, I agree with Shteven. Contributing is good.

[Macavenger]

I consider it a scumtell because scum are more likely to think that 'the jig is up,

they got me

the news is out, they finally found me.'

Fixed.

Also, it's a null tell.

[Macavenger]

I see a little difference in claims here. Chenhsi provided his flavor name, Iron Man has not. This makes IM’s claim just a little less believable.

Vanilla claims should almost never affect this type of lynch anyway.

[Macavenger]

I'm not sure how much we should be talking about job offers; since there's a good chance most/all of the corporations are protown, it seems remarkably close to talking about power roles to me. Better to leave the scum in the dark, perhaps?

Also worth thinking about - I'm guessing from chenhsi's emotional bah post that he may be the one who killed Fonz last night (knowing he wasn't going to live and taking a stab based on the confirm post flavor, maybe?), and Fonz almost certainly killed chenhsi, so with only one other death besides those, does it possibly imply only one scumgroup?

[Macavenger]

Did you not get any job offers last night?

Three, actually. Jealous much?

Would you mind explaining how he was fishing for other people's results? I'm seeing role fishing, but not results.

How is saying "Let's not discuss this" fishing of any kind? I don't get it.

I did intend to hold back on revealing exactly what happened as a result of job selections but it seems that I've been beaten to the punch: I too hunted down xenos and was successful. This should be easy to verify as the result is a consistant double vote, so myself and (the person who also claimed this whose name I'm not double checking) should be able to be confirmed freelancers.

That makes us confirmed town, for now at least. May change if we join factions later on. I don't expect people to trust us on this, but I would imagine when the double vote is exposed, the claim would be much more believable.

Very much don't like you trying to represent yourself as confirmed town for this. There are so incredibly many possible holes in this. We don't know that the Xeno missions aren't from scum. We have no way to verify that you actually did that mission - you could have gotten a double vote some other way. That particular mission has basically been so thoroughly outed in the thread that talking about it means basically nothing as to whether or not you did it.

[Macavenger]

The later part of your post is the issue.

Ok, I see what you're getting at here; I'll have to try to word that type of speculation more carefully in the future. I was actually only interested in the idea that there might only be one scumgroup.

Are there any objections to the people who got identified job offers releasing the names of the factions? I tend to think it would empower town more than scum to learn more about the setup, and which/how many factions we're dealing with.

How is this going to empower town more than scum? I still don't see how this is much different from a standard game - scum need to find and eliminate the other factions, and the more we talk about them and what they've done the easier that's going to be. Why do Freelancers really need to know the names of all the factions? I don't see how this helps us.

Snaps recent post has reminded me of the Day 1 case against ashmite. I feel like this is worth pursuing a bit - Fonz being revealed as (at least mostly) town and ashmite not contributing anything so far today doesn't hurt it any.

Vote: ashmite

[Macavenger]

You're clearly reading the thread, from the way you show up almost instantly when your name gets called. I think strife may be on to something here.

Unvote; Vote: Xtoxm

[Macavenger]

I'm not totally sure the meta argument is even relevant - Xtoxm isn't posting, but shows up immediately when attacked. Meta or no, that's highly suspicious.

[Macavenger]

Did a little research - MoS hasn't posted on the site since a few hours after Scattered replaced, and said something in one of his most recent posts about being LA for the next couple weeks... so Scattered could be telling the truth here, and if so this may not get resolved for a bit.

[Macavenger]

I seem to have injured something in my wrist such that using a computer is a bit difficult at the moment. Limited access for a few days while I'm trying to get that to heal up. May read along, but don't expect too much content from me for a bit.

[Macavenger]

Checking in. Wrist is mostly healed. Pretty happy with my Scattered vote, especially with bionic's find in ashmite's earlier posts.

Seeing a possible Scattered/Luigi (plus maybe ashmite) alignment here. 1259 looks like trying to deflect off scattered on to Shteven. Then when called out on it by vollkan, he backtracks/distances in 1268. ashmite is more just circumstance - assuming Scattered is scum, I don't know whether he'd be more likely to try to get a buddy to confirm him, or just toss a name on a townie to try to delay things and protect his partners. I would lean somewhat towards the former in this specific case, largely because of Fonz's case from Day 1 already causing me to see ashmite as possible scum independently. The reluctance to give more than one name could simply be trying to not give away more of his buddies than he has to.

I'm not really seeing the case on Shteven from these last couple pages.

[Macavenger]

I didn't bother trying to make a full count, but my unofficial estimate is that Scattered is L-2.