Designer Mafia 2007 - Game Over, Final Scene Posted!

[the silent speaker]

Okay, I'm finally caught up.

The Voldemeep wagon I'm not really feeling. I think the fact that jedi confirmed the existence of a meeping role confirms that big N has, in fact, some sort of meeping role, but says nothing about the alignments of either of them.

The Thyroid wagon I'm really not feeling. I probably am not going to buy a ticket myself, but I think voting him over wanting to use his role is weird.

The one thing I picked up on is that thyroid commented on schismatized directing the cop, and Twomz and ZONEACEFFFFF came to schism's defense with an interpretation of the relevant quote that I found really strained. Given some of his other posts I have a bit of pro-town vibe from ZONEACE, but

vote: Twomz, FOS: Schism

; I chose Twomz for the vote because I want there to be two bandwagons duking it out instead of one running away.

[the silent speaker]

If we have a doc amidst us, thyroid should be the first to get investigated.

A certain someone asked why a doc would be investigating anyone, and ZONE and Twomz both answered him that it was clearly a typo. That's what pinged me. Especially since I can see a simple explanation which doesn't assume he meant other than what he said: if we have a doc to keep the cop safe, the cop is to investigate thyroid first. That would be gross rolefishing on schism's part, but it is a sufficiently simple explanation that it is odd that the typo assumption was leapt to.

[the silent speaker]

It was clearly a brain fart. A DOC CAN'T INVESTIGATE. Suggesting the doc investigate someone would be the LAMEST rolefish ever if thats what it was.

ZONE, i an aware that a doc cannot investigate. I did not say nor imply that a oc could investigate, or that schism believed the same. But a doc can PROTECT the person who

is

doing the investigating. That's where the rolefishing was.

[the silent speaker]

In regard to Nocmen's post: Eactly. Hence rolefishing. Well said, Nocmen.

[the silent speaker]

JDodge, why is Nocmen obvscum? If its because of irregularities in his post restriction, well, I've faked post restrictions as town. There seems no reason for him to lie about his meeping, especially as we know he really does have a meeping-related role.

As I've said before, I think Thyroid's ticket thing is a red herring scumhuntingwise. It could be pro-town, it could be pro-scum, it could be pro-himself, it could be flavor, it could be faked. On day 1 there's no telling how the balance of the game works. This, as well as post restriction pressures, is not a helpful discussion.

[the silent speaker]

We know a meeping-related role was at least submitted, because someone owned up to submitting it. It'd be one heck of a coincidence if he randomly decided to fake one.

And whether it's a good idea depends very much on the game and the restriction. I think posting in Seuss II entirely in rhyme was an excellent idea and added to the game.

[the silent speaker]

I agree with mneme. That said, I'm voting Twomz.

[the silent speaker]

*

A letter drifts into Designville on an errant gust of wind. It reads:

*

Thesilentspeaker. I want your side of the story now.

Ask and ye shall receive.

I wasn't that surprised that schism came up scum, considering he was one of my top two suspects and the only reason my vote was on the other one was that he had fewer votes. Had the deadline rules been different, I would have been voting for him.

I was more surprised that Twomz was town, especially in light of his sad smiley at the thought of "lynching schism to get the day over with" at the end of the day, but that's neither here nor there since he certainly looks authentically dead (and came up town).

As for my own sudden unexpected disappearance, I don't know what to think about that. I intend to keep writing these letters unless I get modkilled for it, and I obviously know my own role, so I am not sure what effect my being out of town has and I think I am better served not speculating too hard. Suffice it that I am not scum, and "Mafia scumbag, Mafia" is an obvious non-role (as you yourself have pointed out).

There was a curious interaction between ssf and Oman at the end of yesterday.

ssf: I was going to switch to schism to prevent a deadline no-lynch, but that's not actually a risk, so I may as well keep my vote to let everyone know where I stand...
Oman: Lynch > No lynch. You know that flea.
ssf: I know. No-Lynch currently isn't possible though. Opinions being shown > helping prevent the very unlikely.
Oman: yus.

Here we have ssf stating he doesn't like the schism lynch, and Oman shifting gears with remarkable speed. To me the whole setup feels contrived.

[the silent speaker]

I can explain that, though if thats whats keeping you from killing me do I want to?

What does this even mean?

Thyroid, why does Stark's post indicate scum for you? I will admit that I find the timing a little curious, being convinced to leave the wagon just as someone makes the first thoughtful case to join it, but unless Nocmen is scum along with stark, I don't see that as more than a curiosity. And if Nocmen

is

scum with stark, surely ZONEACE has no place on your list then.

[the silent speaker]

Anyone want to lay claim to creating a quifty role? (If no one does, that proves nothing, but a positive result will help Oman's credibility.)

[the silent speaker]

*

Oh look, mail.

*

JDodge, using a one-shot vig kill this early is

still

terrible vig play. The one time I was a one-shot vig, I held it until Day 7.

The argument that JDodge is as likely to be vig as scum is the one that's horrendous. No killer is-ever- as likely to be vig as scum, without an innocent cop investigation, at least.

QFT. If we have two scum groups of three each -- numbers produced

ex recta[/], but reasonable for a game this size -- and a vig, it's six to one that a known killer is one of the scum rather than the vig. Three to one if there are two vigs.

I think it unlikely that anyone would submit a role that was a double-one-shot vig/Time Traveler smoosh, since they aren't logically connected and Time Traveler is an unusual enough role idea that it stands as a submission on its own. I further doubt that two people subbmitted the halves and MOS smooshed them, because one-shot vig is

not

special enough to be submitted on is own.

Twomz, the time traveler in the NPCs may be where JDodge got the idea for his claim, but those were all real roles from the last designer game.

Thyroid's reaction to the outing of JDodge is just all kinds of wrong. I submit for your perusal:

Jdodge is likely to be a vig. I cannot conceive scum Jdodge killing Nocmen.

Kscope is likely to be another power role.

I don't think Kscope would have claimed that if he was scum (he tends to be a rather safe scum player.) By Kscope outing himself, he's put two nightkill targets on two possible power roles when it was entirely unecessary, and made it possible for Jdodge to be lynched. (hint: he shouldn't.)

Scope claimed knowledge of Nocmen's killer not from information gleaned in game. He claimed knowledge of the poison pill part of Nocmen's role because

he designed it

. The only person here attaching targets to people's backs is Thyroid.

Thyroid also suggested that any non-JDodge vigs should target him tonight because they know he's lying. BZZZZT. WRONG. Any vigs we have have no assurance that they're the only vig in the game.

Schism, known scum, tried to direct cops to Thyroid. This was doubtless in part due to wanting to sniff out who the cops were, but it may suggest that Thyroid is a GF as well (scum due to the above, turns up innocent because Schism wanted him checked) or he may be of another family. At any rate, it's another link between Thyroid and known scum.

My absentee ballot checks off

vote: JDodge, FOS: Thyroid

.

[the silent speaker]

Er, why am I on the prod list? I posted last Thursday, and it's Monday now.

Regardless, JDodge should die. And Shanba should explain why he has such faith in JDodge. And everyone else who wanted Nocmen lynched for his posting restriction should explain why. ZONEACE, this includes you.

[the silent speaker]

You think he's lying about being a one-shot vig. I don't see any reason to believe this. It makes much more sense that he would kill Nocmen as a 1-shot than as a scumbag.

I disagree with this both in principle and in specific. In principle, a one-shot's reaction to the notion of using his kill on night 3, on anything less than confessed scum (and possibly not even that), should be, well, "OH, THE HORROR!" In specific, having tried and failed to get Nocmen killed for his post restriction, and with Nocmen an expected power role, I see no reason why scum should not find him an attractive target. To argue otherwise is to say that they should have tried to get him lynched again; but a vig should be no less confident in his persuasive powers than the same player as scum.

And you can't even play the WIFOM that he killed Nocmen deliberately as scum to claim 1-shot, because he couldn't have known that killing Nocmen would have outed him,

I said nothing about playing WIFOM to claim one-shot; I have no doubt that JDodge had no intention of claiming when he sent in his kill. The thing is, WIFOM is irrelevant ot an ad hoc claim (true or not). A vig would expect not to be implicated in the kill just as much as scum, and therefore they would expect not to have to claim the next morning for exactly the same reasons as he. You are assuming that the action leads willy-nilly to the revelation, and it does nothing of the sort.

a Nocmen kill is terrible from other perspectives (killing him makes me look better, deprives the scum of a possible mislynch)

Any

kill deprives the scum of a possible mislynch. By this argument the scum should never kill. Which is fine by me.

There's a great motive for jdodge town to kill nocmen,

And that would be...?

And it's not like the missing kill is impossible to explain, either.

We've had one kill per night. What missing kill?

[the silent speaker]

If Jdodge is town, he clearly believed that Nocmen was scum. As such, it makes sense for him to have vigged him. Um. That's pretty obvious, really.

And if Jdodge is scum, he clearly believed that Nocmen was town. As such, it makes sense for him to have nuked him. You can't assume your conclusion and then give that as the rationale for making the assumption.

Nocmen had promised the use of powers at night. Why

shouldn't

a (scum) JDodge who had no reason to believe he would be tied to the kill try to shoot him?

[the silent speaker]

By the bye, a couple of choice JDodge quotes.

[mneme wrote:
Schis is a bad player is a really, really crappy defense.

(is happy where his vote is).]

I am aware, but it is also true, and thus it makes me hesitant to go after him quite yet; as a matter of fact, he does have a marked difference in playstyle between scum and town, and he's definitely townish in this case.

Defense of schismatized.

If you feel almost certain that someone is scum, and you are a vig, then who do you kill - the person you are certain about or someone random?

False dilemma. You kill no one yet, thus retaining your shot for later in the game when you can be no longer

almost

certain.

JDodge, explain in greater detail what happens when you make your swap. What happens during the day phase and what happens during the night phase?

[the silent speaker]

Sir Tornado, you say you caused Nocmen's fake kill. Since causing fake deaths is Shanba's power, and jediknight handed Nocmen the mysterious yellow shirt, in what way were you responsible?

[the silent speaker]

I don't know quite how well that would work -- for one thing, for aught we know anyone who isn't Shanba turns up "mafia scumbag, mafia" -- but imagining the look on the scums' faces is bringing a smile to mine.

[the silent speaker]

Once again I find that I can't post because mneme has beaten me to anything useful to say.

JDodge is not a potential vig, because any viggery he mae have had is gone. He's a potential one-shot day-night flipper, and I don't really see how impossible it is for him to be a

scum

one-shot day-night flipper.

[the silent speaker]

I want a massclaim right now.

Snicker.

I wonder if the reason Sir Tornado and JDodge both have to say, "OH, THE HORROR!" is that they form the collective scumgroup that killed Nocmen.

[the silent speaker]

1) Explain Nocmen's fake kill.

2) Scum group of only 2 people?

3) Explain exactly what is wrong in my proposal instead of just snickering at it.

1)Teal shirt.

2) Scum group of 3 people, one of whom is already dead.

3) What is wrong with your proposal is that it calls for a mass claim.

I designed JDodge's role,

it was a scum role when I designed it

, and it does pretty much what JDodge says it does.

Well now.

Now

can we lynch this scum?

[the silent speaker]

And, why does it have the exact same text as Shanba's fake death (which, I am assuming Shanba typed)?

If the teal shirt is a copying ability, shouldn't it be expected to, y'know, copy?

[the silent speaker]

*bump*

[the silent speaker]

I have some worries about Thyroid, but really as long as we lynch JDodge it's all good.

Thyroid, now that you've checked with the mod

and

posted, why haven't you answered the question yet?

[the silent speaker]

buy ticket from thyroid

[the silent speaker]

Also, as I almost forgot, I am selling tickets for a local Renaissance fair! Please quote this if you want to buy a ticket! I assure you I can help you if you help me! If we all go the fair, we can all enjoy the Renaissance!!!!!!

[the silent speaker]

One more to lynch, by my count. Someone end it.

[the silent speaker]

Frankly -- and I think I speak with some experience here -- I don't know how it can be used as an information-gathering tool at all. Shanba writes the fake deaths himself. Unless, Idunno, it becomes a real death if he happens to guess someone's role correctly or something.

[the silent speaker]

*

Opening the morning newspaper, you find an editorial article.

*

Thyroid bandwagon page 10: stark,

schismatized

, ZONEACE, somestrangeflea,

foolinc

Nocmen bandwagon circa page 25:

JDodge

, Scope, FaerieLord

People opposing the notion of voting someone for his role rather than perceived scumminess, circa 25: UltimaAvalon, CKD, mneme (Belgarion can be inferred)

Schism bandwagon as of my joining: Thyroidectomy, UltimaAvalon, jediknight, mneme, curiouskarmadog
It later got Belgarion and Scope.

Some of the Oman interactions pique me. The easiest to point to is where he announced that Schism was scum

before having read the thread

; ordinarily easily enough dismissed as a joke, only schism

was

scum. But a number of other Schism/Oman/JDodg interactions have the same sort of feel as Schism/JDodge interactions. Somestrangeflea is none too pleasing occasionally, too. I'm thinking of the argument SHanba had with Z over Thyroid, and schism said, "in light of new evidence do we kill shanny, zoneface, or roid?" and ssf agreed exceot as relating to Shanba.

Noted after, though, Oman votes Schism.

When JDodge defended Schism against UltimaAvalon, Thyroid and mneme and K-scope opposed him. Shanba said, "I'm totally confused over Schism. Half the town is saying that he's playing like he always does, the rest is saying he's playing like scum. There's no real consensus so I'm just going to assume the case is mostly hot air." JDodge is not half the town, Shanba.

Day 1 final votecount:

schismatized

- (Thyroidectomy, UltimaAvalon, jediknight,

curiouskarmadog

,

Belgarion

, KaleiÐoscøpe, Oman, stark, mneme)
Nocmen - (

JDodge

, FaerieLord, ZONEACE)
KaleiÐoscøpe - (

Nocmen

,

schismatized

)
Others - (Shanba,

Nightson

, Flameaxe,

the silent speaker

, somestrangeflea,

Twomz

, Sir Tornado)

Day 2:
Voted Nocmen: JDodge, Ultima, Scope, Nightson, ZONEACE, Oman, SSF, ckd, Belgarion (presented strong case),
Voted JDodge: jediknight
Voted FL/ZA: Thyroid, mneme, jediknight

...oh, duh, Oman claimed quiftifier. Can we get some confirmation on that today, Oman?
Also, Jedi is the shirt giver. Thyroid is the Ren Faire ticket salesman. I think that covers the claims of people who never died.

Day 3:

ZA votes Scope; JDodge votes Jedi; mneme votes JDodge and FOSes Z.
Scope busts JDodge and gathers votes from himself, ckd, Twomz, mneme... and a refusal from Thyroid. ZONEACE also defended JDodge. I voted JDodge. Shanba defended JDodge and fished for Belgarion. Kison defended JDodge.

Sir Tornado claimed Nocmen's fake kill and JDodge rounded on him for some not well defined reason.

Ultima joined the "save the Dodge" poloitical party. Stark also. Same with Oman, who flipped very dramatically on KaleiTHoscoepe. Shanba voted ZONEACE.

Final vote count for JDodge:
KaleiÐoscøpe, Twomz, the silent speaker, Kison, jediknight, Sir Tornado, curiouskarmadog, Belgarion, mneme, stark
Did not vote JDodge: Ultima, ZONEACE, Oman, Thyroid (voted Z), Shanba (voted Z), somestrangeflea, Flameaxe

Total, voted for or FOSed both Schism and JDodge: Jedi, CKD, Belgarion (big surprise there), KaleiÐoscøpe, stark, mneme, the silent speaker (FOSed schism)

Voted for neither: Shanba, somestrangeflea, Flameaxe

JDodge outright refuseniks: Thyroid, Shanba, Ultima, ZONEACE, stark (eventually voted to end the day), Oman

Flameaxe has not posted content since replacing in, and the person he replaced -- Battle Mage -- supported both the accusations against Thyroid and those against Nocmen. He also joined wih JDodge in a squabble with Z.

SSF voted neither

and

attacked Thyroid for selling tickets.

Shanba voted neither and has some unpleasant-looking interactions, but he has also demonstrated an apparently harmless ability to the town.

Oman had some possibly bad-looking interactions with Schism, refused to vote JDodge, and had an ugly flip-flop on Scope. But he claimd a role that should be provable today.

FaerieLord, became Kison, went after Nocmen and didn't go after schism; Kison waffled on JDodge. Faerie did, however, support Thyroid.

These are the five people I find scummiest, in approximate order.

Jedi, CKD, (Belgarion,) scope, mneme and of course myself are very unlikely scum.

Vote:Flameaxe

. Oman, please exercise your double vote.

[the silent speaker]

CKD, I realize resurrection disconfirms alignment, but would you rather have schism and nightson back?

mneme, I don't know who armix is but I think we can confidently say he doesn't have armix as a scum buddy. One of your armixes is probably armlx (with an L), but who is the other?

[the silent speaker]

Since when do you need to be partnered with schiz to be scum?

You don't *need* to, but it helps. Someone known to not be partnered with schism is

ipso facto

less likely scum than someone not so known, all else being equal (which they seldom are, but I'd rather lynch you than mneme all the same).
Besides, with only one kill per night, it looks increasingly like we have only one killing group.

We should probably not test Thyroid's shirt. If he's town, the scum will have to try and kill him anyway, and he'll come back when they do (if all shirts resurrect). Let them do our testing for us. If he's scum then by all means let's lynch him, but that's not for testing, that's for making die.

Oman doesn't have a PR, because he already posted once today. In that post he said he's VLA until the 14th.

[the silent speaker]

Oman needs to cast all his available votes for Flameaxe and/or armlx, Flame better than armlx. If he has not done so by the time the first days of Passover are over, I will move my vote to him.

[the silent speaker]

Unvote
Vote: Oman

[the silent speaker]

I suspect if Oman is town then scum are using this as cover for partners defending jdodge.

It may be worth noting in this context that Oman was one of those defenders. There are sound non-silence reasons to vote for Oman.

[the silent speaker]

I'm going to break with tradition a little here. I'm still going to

unvote

, but I'm also going to

vote: Flameaxe

as my top suspect before Oman.

Fonz, if you could try to answer some of the other questions I had on Oman's behavior that he's no longer around to answer for, that would be good. In particular what do you think of Kaleidoscope and can you justify Oman's shifting positions there?

[the silent speaker]

Flameaxe's last post: March 24
Flameaxe's last post of substance: January 18 (using a friendly definition of "substance")
Flamaxe's first post of substance: January 13 (again using a generous definition of "substance," but I'm just that nice a guy)

Plus he's the top of my scum list.

I say the hell with it, let's just kill him.

[the silent speaker]

Oman certainly did plenty to suspect him, but some of that is association with other scummy players. We can afford to keep him around while we poke at those, and if the linkages continue to turn up black for him, take him out then. There are enough players who are confirmed pro-town or moral certainties or best given benefit of the doubt that we can afford to take our time with Fonz and let him provide his own self-hanging rope if necessary.

I second the request for information on why Fonz chose to vote armlx.

And i really don't think it's likely there's a scumgroup with three members, though there may well be three or more living antitown roles.

Elaborate plz? Especially since balancing would have been done at the start of the game...

In conclusion, Flameaxe must die. Why make the mod go to the trouble of finding yet another replacement when the role has already been replaced once and he's probably scum anyway? Hell, maybe the whole reason for so few kills is Flameaxe and others like him. Bump 'im off, I say.

[the silent speaker]

Replacement > just killing people.

Not in Flameaxe's case. Any why are

you

so urgent on seeing him replaced? He your scum buddy?

[the silent speaker]

He's had four months to post. It's been a month since he even posted non-content. How much more time does he need?

[the silent speaker]

Yes. And the mod should resolve it with a modkill. Quicker, neater, doesn't put a replacement in an impossible condition, and it's helpful for more of the players.

[the silent speaker]

CKD, I did answer. He's

had

a chance to claim. And he's not at L-1 or anything ridiculous, he has my vote and that's it. And if he does claim now, I will be delighted, because it means he will be POSTING.

Furthermore, especially if he turns up scum, this exchange has given me prime information on Armlx, who was already #2 on my list.

Fonz is thinking along lines much like my own. This makes me happier about Fonz.

[the silent speaker]

TSS,

if he is going to be replaced

, you would rather lynch him before that?

How is that pro-town?

(response to bolded part) Is he about to be replaced? You know something I don't?
(response to underlined part) Um, because I think he's scum? As in, see my first post of the day, where he tops my list?

[the silent speaker]

Good luck finding five replacements willing to join seventy pages of game. Replacement>modkill usually, I agree, but that "usually" makes all the difference. This is the exception.

And for the forty-seventh time, I think he's scum for reasons besides lurking, so I don't understand why people have a problem with me wanting him dead.

[the silent speaker]

CKD, we need five replacements because the mod is sending out five prods (six, but Kison already responded to his).

And for the kajillionth time, I would be fine with seeing a claim first IF HE WERE HERE. Since he is not, where do you expect this claim to come from? Likewise, I would dearly love for him to defend himself from the runup to a lynch that I am apparently magically contriving to do all by my lonesome. So why don't you, armlx, PM your scum buddy and TELL HIM TO GET BACK HERE AND DEFEND HIMSELF?

And CKD, does it not bother you at least a little that you are taking armlx's side? If Flameaxe has a scumbuddy, armlx is about the best candidate for it.

[the silent speaker]

Player list:
UltimaAvalon
ZONEACE
jediknight
KaleiÐoscøpe
Sir Tornado
armlx (replacing somestrangeflea)
stark
Kison (replacing FaerieLord)
mneme
Belgarion
Flameaxe (replacing Battle Mage)
curiouskarmadog (replacing mole)
Thyroidectomy
The Fonz (replacing Oman (replacing Bamboomancer))
Twomz
Nocmen

Players we shouls not under any circumstances be lynching any time soon:

Belgarion
CKD
Jediknight
mneme
Nocmen
Sir Tornado
the silent speaker
Twomz

People who should be among the first to go:

armlx
Flameaxe
Kison

People with some good reason to suspect, and possible connections, but some demonstrated role power (so should not be the first to go, but may warrant a second look once we know a few more scum):

Fonz
Shanba
Thyroid

The rest:

stark
Ultima
ZONEACE

Of the latter group, the alphabetical order matches how I sort them; stark I have some bad vibes on but am more-or-less neutral, Ultima I am neutral-to-maybe-very-slightly-favorable, and ZONEACE seems to have been a scum target and I am favorable on him.

Of the "confirmed-but" group, I rate Shanba the highest, partly because of some of his earlier interactions and partly because I have been liking Fonz a lot better than I liked Oman. (Also, Bamboo's posts in retrospect were clearly angling for QFT's, so that supports his story.) It is worth noting, however, that since we appear to have only the one killing group (plus the dead SK), and the town has some fair power including (now) an infinite doctor loop, the scum group should be pretty large and have some powers of their own to keep the game from being completely broken. If it only includes two of the "lynch these first" group, then it almost certainly includes one of "the rest" or the "confirmed-but" and not inconceivably two -- most likely in that case one from each, depending on the odd man out of door number 2.

If we can pull into an endgame with no one but the "can't touch this" group, then we will be in a very strong position. All of these are players confirmed or morally certain to be town, by either investigation, demonstrated pro-town use of role, or sound scumhunting with no red flags.

[the silent speaker]

I

thought

I had missed someone --Kaleidosope is on the "can't touch this" list.

[the silent speaker]

Something I noticed in my post that needs to be clarified: in the paragraph where I said, "Of the "confirmed-but" group, I rate Shanba the highest, partly because of some of his earlier interactions and partly because I have been liking Fonz a lot better than I liked Oman," I meant that I rate Shanba the highest level of

scumminess

-- i.e. I feel

worst

about him, then Fonz (who has been goin down in scumminess lately) and then Thyroid.

Hey TSS - have you seen anything that could be construed as independent thought from stark? Also, could you look at stark's play yesterday on the Jdodge wagon?

I noted without great approval how he was all against lynching JDodge until it came time to cast the hammering votes, which struck me as possible distancing; however, I don't have a strong read on stark. With armlx and Flameaxe and Kison ahead of himfor certain, stark's not my topmost priority this second, but when the wheel turns to his name, I'll have better arguments for his placement than "lynch them all and the mod will know his own".

How important is it for me and my buddies to kill you and mneme? I can't find your claims.

That's an excellent question. I'm glad you asked.

[the silent speaker]

Do you not find this at all interesting?

Um, he

is

about fourth or fifth out of eighteen on my ranking, and first or second of the six not on The List of obvtown or obvscum. I repeat: I'm not that interested in going after him

yet

, because I have juicier targets in my sights, but I wouldn't say I find him uninteresting.

Fonz, I have an offer to make you. I will QFT-spam you if you agree not to use those extra votes unless the following conditions are met:

1. The player for whom you intend to vote-- henceforth That Guy -- is not on The List of obvtown.
2. A player who is on The List is voting That Guy or has asked you to vote for That Guy.

These terms don't require you to use your extra votes, and you remain at discretion to decline to do as a List player asks, and you can even cast your first vote on conscience; but any extra vote you do cast must conform to these terms.

Acceptance, and compliance, will be construed as acceptance of an analogous offer for all future days (The List may be longer if more people are added) so long as all of the following players live: Sir Tornado, The Fonz, the silent speaker, Twomz.

Do you accept?

[the silent speaker]

Unvote, vote: The Fonz

Had you accepted, you would have put two free votes at the disposal of people you personally considered to be guaranteed town. (You will note that I made no provision that you would have to listen to

me

.) I can only attribute your refusal to a wish not to be a Judas.

[the silent speaker]

I'm sure you are, armlx. I only wish I could be voting both of you.

[the silent speaker]

I repeat again, answer the questions from last page and stop dodging the issues.

WHAT ISSUES? I listed people who were obvtown, explaining that all of them fell into at least one of three categories (some fell into more):
1. Town by investigation.
2. Pro-town use of role.
3. Sound scumhunting with no red flags.

You and Fonz wanted me to specify who fell into which category. But you and FOnz are probably scum, so I see no reason I should help you.

On my list there were perhaps three people a reasonable person could argue are not obvtown -- note that we are not reaching whether a reasonable person could argue that they are not town, only whether they are not

obv

town. There is no reason a pro-town Fonz should have even the slightest interest in voting anyone on that list, so a pro-town Fonz gives up NOTHING. As for the notion that "my vote is essentially beholden to you" -- baloney. First of all, you are not guaranteed to have those votes, and I explicitly specified that this only applies to the extras. Second, even if you don't think too highly of me, you have your pick of eight players to follow, and if you don't like where one of them is voting, you can simply

follow one of the others

. If you don't like where six of them are voting but are also pro-town yourself, something is wrong with your brain. If our whole obvtown contingent is voting

you

when you're providing them with an extra two votes, you can bet there will be a damned good reason why.
And I made a point of NOT tying your extras to me personally, so that's a lie, too.

Sir Tornado, I know I'm pro-town and I put myself in the "sound scumhunting" category by default (since obviously I wouldn't say anything I thought was unconvincing). I think my attack on JDodge, FOS of Schism, and defenses of Nocmen and Twomz should encourage the rest of you to put me there too. Fonz is not on the list because he has not *demonstrated* pro-town use of his role and Oman rang quite a few warning bells. The recent Shanba-Fonz-armlx gangup on me has bad juju too.

[the silent speaker]

EBWOP: Fonz, while he has demonstrated the use of his role, has not used it in a way that demonstrates that he is pro-town.

[the silent speaker]

CKD: In general, I like the way jedi has been playing and I think his placement in the various role revelations indicates pro-townness. I have some reservations on Shanba, based in part on his play, but I also have a suspicion regarding his role. I have no proof for my paranoid fantasies, but Shanba, please fake Kaleidoscope's death tonight as "vile mafia fiend, mafia." (I think Kaleidoscope is pretty evidently town, which is why he is suitable for this.)

I could go for stark, but I think I would rather lynch armlx. This is the second time in the last few pages that he has represented a position of mine fraudulently: once with "ZOMG LYNCH BBM NOW NO CLAIM DIE SCUM" and once with "Gimme ur votes", both of which were more or less exactly the opposite of what I was saying.

[the silent speaker]

Armlx, the to-avoid list is of the obvious town. The restriction is only nominally of

my

choosing.

I don't even know why I'm bothering to explain this to you, you're that patently scum.

[the silent speaker]

How is armlx scum? Oh lordy me, let me count the ways.

-- He is not present on either of the lynching wagons for dead scum.
-- He is not on The List.
-- He has twice within recent memory completely rewritten my position on an issue.
-- He is attempting to portray as irrational my considering myself as town.
-- He has opposed, and is continuing to oppose, a plan that would have given the town two free votes guaranteed to not be guided by scum.
-- He and more so his predecessor in interest has displayed scummy-looking interactions with other scum suspects and exhibited positions known to be endorsed by scum.

No doubt I'm missing some, but that should do for now.

Mneme, I would rather Shanba frame Kaleidoscope as it seems safer. If Armlx is lynched and is scum, then there will be no harm in making the change, but if we lynch a town (especially if we lynch Armlx and I turn out wrong and he's town) I will have to insist on Kaleidoscope. After all, if we

do

end up with only The List alive and the game's not over, you will be one of the first who will have to justify your continued existence.

Unvote, vote: Armlx

[the silent speaker]

In fact, while I did see armlx post "vote JDodge" (with no colon) in bold, I also saw him telling Stark that Stark's vote was DA HAMMAH. Since, as the vote count confirmed, it was the hammer

without

counting a vote from armlx, I inferred that the bold was not counted as a vote (because of the lack of colon) and was probably not intended to count as a vote, only to look like one.
The vote count, for reference:
JDodge - (KaleiÐoscøpe

1

, Twomz

2

, the silent speaker

3

, Kison

4

, jediknight

5

, Sir Tornado

6

, curiouskarmadog

7

, Belgarion

8

, mneme

9

, stark

10

)
KaleiÐoscøpe - (ZONEACE, Oman)
ZONEACE - (Thyroidectomy, Shanba)

17 alive,

10

to lynch

Fonz:
[quote]Also, you're backtracking- you were previously making out like they were all obvtown.[/quote]
I continue to maintain this. I acknowledge that for a few cases, a reasonable person may think them less obvious. He should still judge them town.
[quote]Which is a flat-out lie. I never agreed the people on your list were town.[/quote]
Not all of them, no. There are about seven people on it you don't disagree with me regarding, though. If you think I'm scum, follow one of those seven. One of the ones you acknowledge to be not only town but obvtown. I never said, and if I didn't explicitly disclaim yet I do so now, that you had to follow

my

lead.
[quote]TSS thinks armlx is scum, because TSS doesn't think armlx is obvtown.[/quote]
By itself it is very weak, this is true. If it were the only point against him I would not have bothered mentioning it. However, with a nine-man list, especially with a resurrective mechanic and a doctoral loop, we are *almost* but not quite in the territory of "lynch the lot of them, the mod will know his own." That makes the fact tht armlx is not on the list of some slight probative-but-not-dispositive value.
[quote]Inside knowledge. You can only say this if you know me to be town.[/quote]
Guaranteed not to be

guided

by scum. If you allow those votes to be guided by people who are blatantly, self-evidently town, they are not being guided by scum. If you allow those votes to be guided by yourself, you have a guarantee that the alignment that makes you lose isn't steering them, but the rest of us have no such guarantee and some cause for concern.

Aside from myself, and possibly mneme, is there a single name on my list you think *doesn't* belong?

Armlx:
[quote]I called him out on wanting to rush a Flameaxe lynch[/quote]
You keep saying this, and it keeps not being true.

Twomz:
[quote]-- Not irrational but incorrect. While you have reason to believe yourself town (or so you would like us to think) we have no reason to believe you're town. If you go creating lists of "cleared" players and include yourself with only your word proving you're town, it is very very scummy.[/quote]
Which is why, when people asked, I cited some things I've done that incline to varying degrees toward a showing of pro-townness through sound scumhunting. I'll admit that I might not have put let's say ZONEACE on the obvtown list were my posts his and his mine, but all the same I think there's more reason to label me town than my own say-so.
I fully acknowledge that when it comes time to whittle down the last few possibles, I will be among the first on The List to need to justify my continued game tenure, and I am fully prepared to do so.
[quote]Examples?[/quote]
1. He says I wanted to rush through a Flameaxe lynch to refuse him a chance to claim. I wanted a Flameaxe lynch because his voting pattern was suspect and he was lurking abominably. And no one joined me on it, so it's not like I started a stampede, the wat armlx was portraying it.
2. He says I wanted Fonz to give me his votes. If Fonz makes a point of giving his votes to Kaleidoscope or CKD or you, I will be as delighted as I would be if he gave it to me -- possibly more so, due to greater town confidence in you guys.
[quote]Examples?[/quote]
1. [quote]There was a curious interaction between ssf and Oman at the end of [Day 1].
[quote="SSF and Oman"]
ssf: I was going to switch to schism to prevent a deadline no-lynch, but that's not actually a risk, so I may as well keep my vote to let everyone know where I stand...
Oman: Lynch > No lynch. You know that flea.
ssf: I know. No-Lynch currently isn't possible though. Opinions being shown > helping prevent the very unlikely.
Oman: yus. [/quote]

Here we have ssf stating he doesn't like the schism lynch, and Oman shifting gears with remarkable speed. To me the whole setup feels contrived.[/quote]
2. [quote]I'm thinking of the argument Shanba had with Z over Thyroid, and schism said, "In light of new evidence do we kill shanny, zoneface, or roid?" and ssf agreed except as relating to Shanba.[/quote]
That's two just from what I've already quoted in this thread already. The second one relates SSF and Shanba to each other as well as SSF to schism.
Also, I note that the people who think my offer to Fonz was the work of scum go by armlx (ex-flea), the Fonz formerly known as Oman, and Shanba. I impugn the coincidentality of this. I think the scum are probably terrified of the town co-ordinating its roles, because that's how informed majorities are born.

Finally, I question the necessity for Fonz to be pro-town by rolepower alone. I think that until a player has demonstrated his pro-townness by making the roles catch scum, we need to be concerned that the mafia must have powers to offset the town's strength. Furthermore, I am not concerned about Fonz being harder to read for having placed his powers effectively at the disposal of the town, for two reasons: one, if he gives up his powers and in so doing allows a scum or two to die, that will be strongly probative of his pro-townness all by itself, as it hurts the scum badly; two, by the time it becomes an issue, we will be well within process-of-elimination territory.

I had forgotten that it was flea who copped to designing JDodge's role. That does affect things, and strongly in Armlx's favor ... but I still have a hard time believing that none of Armlx, Fonz and Shanba are scum.

Fonz needs to still be alive in case he's useful, and Shanba needs to still be alive if we're going to test out my paranoid theory. Argh.

Unvote, vote: Kison

as fourth best.
Armlx, if we get confirmation of scum Shanba, I'm coming right back after you, JDodge admission or no JDodge admission.

[the silent speaker]

tss: I hope you're not treating JDodge's lynching order as at all significant -- a few people temporarily jumped the bandwagon to give time for thryroid to collect tickets.

Not so much the order as the fact that armlx is not on it, and it is not short one person, and both armlx and the mod agreed that Stark's vote (and not armlx's) hammered.

[the silent speaker]

Shanba, I get about 66%. Why do you ask?

[the silent speaker]

Also,

Mod: votecount please?

[the silent speaker]

Speaking of liars who hurt the town:

I was the L-1 vote on Jdodge. I'm just not on the vote count b/c of an MoS error, but if you count there's only 9 names and I voted him right before the stark hammer.

This is a lie, which is what my noting the vote count was intended to prove.

Nocmen, PBuG, give me something to work with.

[the silent speaker]

I'm the resurrector. I brought Twomz and Nocmen back. Happy?

[the silent speaker]

Yes, Twomz, I have multiple resurrections. I agree that it seems overpowered without any other knowledge about balance, which is why I've been so insistent that the scum are probably a large powered group as well. Double/triple voter, millerizer, whatever armlx is, all that sort of thing would be entirely in keeping.

My role has no connection to jedi's shirts that I'm aware of. The mod declined to elaborate on his disclaimer of overreliance, so I had been assuming that there was a possibility that the player might come back evil or something, but I win with town. (Note: I do not think that either Twomz or Nocmen has in fact come back evil.)

If it's flavor you want, I'm Keith Richards, I found the secret to eternal life, and I pass it on because the Code is law no matter how many people say it's more like guidelines. If there is another player out there named Mick Jagger, I think he is immune to resurrection.

Anyone still voting me is an idiot or scum or (armlx) both. Simenon blocked all scum actions and I acted unblocked. Also, if I were mafia, I'd have been bringing back scum.

[the silent speaker]

Armlx:

Sure, but it seems obvious enough to me TSS is trying to dodge out of the scenario and claimed right into an already claimed role.

This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. You think I

forgot

about

resurrections

?

Thats more than enough for me.

Vote TSS

So what you're saying is, "ZOMG LYNCH TSS NOW NO CLAIM CONFIRMATION DIE VITAL POWERROLE"? Hypocritical much?

[the silent speaker]

I have not been informed of any inability to bring back a person more than once, although I suspect that whatever risk or penalty applies to balance my role accumulates the more often the same person goes down and gets up and goes down and gets up.

I have not been informed of any restriction against bringing back the lynched, and since dead is dead I have been operating under the assumption that I can do so with no greater penalties than bring back the nightkilled would bring.

Shanba, when you fake a person's death as scum, does that person subsequently become a miller? If your answer is no, I insist that you agree NOW to fake KScope's or mneme's death (I prefer Scope as 'more confirmed' town) tonight so that tomorrow night he can be investigated. I would volunteer myself to be investigated but that would be blatantly self-serving; anyone who wants to is welcome but remember that a guilty only proves that

either

Shanba or I is lying.

[the silent speaker]

Well, my theory is that you are a

scum

millerizer, Shanba. Yes, fakedeath Scope. The first night after his fakedeath, I would like a cop to investigate Scope. If Scope turns up town, which we pretty much already know he is, my theory is wrong. If Scope investigates as scum, Shanba is exposed as a liar and Armlx is tarred badly by association too.

[the silent speaker]

We can test all the role-based lynches tonight with my "block all town" ability.

No, we can't, because scum will choose to not act.

Shanba, I want to see "vile mafia fiend, mafia." (That is if we don't lynch Shanba outright, which I would be down with.) Has Shanba fully claimed somewhere and I missed it?

Let's not fake my death. If it turns out wrong, you succeeded in getting a confirmed townie killed. Grats.

Faking deaths doesn't actually kill the player; see, e.g. me. But I have been trying to think what use Shanba's role is. It is not a useful intel-gathering role because he writes the roles himself. But if declaring another player scum or town does something

else

-- like making that player appear as scum or town appropriately to cops -- suddenly it is a role with a function. That function, though, would have to be anti-town, because it makes town roles not work and places town players under false suspicion.

Z, Nocmen is an outed cop already, so I figured he could test out whether faked roles turn up scum.

UNvote, vote: Shanba. This is, by my count, five out of nine.

[the silent speaker]

... I am not altogether surprised that PBuG does not like the Shanba wagon, as PBuG is the former Flameaxe.

Shanba, why on earth would anyone say "I don't know why Shanba was killed" when (a) you were still posting, (2) you had already claimed fakedeathizer, and (iii) it would be pretty universally regarded as a ludicrously scummy thing to say unless the person could come up with a good reason why it specifically had to be said?

Incidentally, let the record show the following, which is consistent with someone who knows what The List will do to him and his if allowed, and desperately needs to attack it:

I don't honestly see how you could, say, trust ckd but not Fonz.

The town in general, and Nocmen and Belgarion in specific, are invited to contemplate the implications of this.

[the silent speaker]

Tss: if you get me lynched today, when i turn up pro-town, will you rez me and help me lynch stark tomorrow?

That's my plan.

[the silent speaker]

If I had raised people, I'd have been hella more involved in the conversation about it when it was happening.

Personal taste, perhaps. I didn't want to paint a big sign saying HAI SCUMZ KILL ME FIRST PLZ.

Anyway, although I'll be protected if our collective doctoral corps has the common sense God gave woad, just in case I die here is my opinion for the record on preferred sequence of future lynches (assuming Shanba is the lynch today):

Ia. Shanba is scum, armlx is next; if armlx is also scum, Fonz is after him.
Ib. Shanba is town, stark is next. (I will also attempt to revive Shanba, obviously.)
II. The set {Kison, PBuG}.
III. The set {SSF, Thyroid} plus whichever remains of Ia and Ib.
IV. Shanba, if town and I'm still alive, strictly to rule out the zombie cult theory without burning a killer-exposing cop or a doc-protected doc.
V. The set {ZONEACE}.
VI. The set {mneme, K-Scope, jedi}. At this point the game would be down to The List and The List only, which is why they are eligible.
VII. The remainder of The List.

[the silent speaker]

If I'm dead by then, which I expect to be, no matter how diminishing the returns they're better than nothing. Better to have my opinion out there. I assume that people will be able to use their brains to judge three days down the line where the signal-to-noise ratio stands.

[the silent speaker]

I'm not interested in Kscope being targetted by Shamba because Kscope is probably the most pro-town player we have

I wanted Kscope to be the target precisely

because

he's the most pro-town player we have absent mod information on them. That way we could be sure that a guilty result was from Shanba making a miller and not from a coincidentally evil player.

I wouldn't call Shanba's role overpowered at all. Firstly, if it does no more than create daybreak flavor, then it can't do anything to the game balance, scum or not. Secondly, he

did

screen himself the second chance he got, and we don't know that he wouldn't have screened a buddy the only night unaccounted for had Simenon not interfered. And third, with a resurrector on the town's side (even those who don't believe me have to acknowledge that *somebody* is bringing town players back) the scum

needs

a lot of power.

[the silent speaker]

They'd get replaced, though. That'd be a tipoff.

[the silent speaker]

I think TSS is scum if I disregard him claim,

because...?

[the silent speaker]

Do you even remember the reasons that forced you to claim?

Yes. They were named armlx, Fonz, and Shanba. All of whom I had just recently accused of being scum, and none of whom provided any justification for their votes save you, and yours were falsehoods. PBuG especially provided no justification for suspecting me, he only said he did.

Never really payed attention to the fact that every last "dead" player who was Town is now alive(Twomz, Shanba, Nocmen). This makes me worry about TSS.

How do you figure? Isn't that exactly what would be expected of a pro-town resurrector? And Shanba never was dead any more than I was.

I'm not worried about players skating through without posting till endgame under cover of decease. They would be prodded and replaced, and that would be good game and good night.

[the silent speaker]

We can safely assume mafia killed nocmen, why would Shanba target him if he was also mafia?

Shanba didn't target Nocmen. Shanba targeted himself. Sir Tornado

copied

Shanba to Nocmen. Once again armlx fails at truth.

[the silent speaker]

I did send in a revive Shanba choice.

[the silent speaker]

Anyway, with some more investigative results, Kison and Simenon can get knocked down a couple of tiers.

Vote: Stark

for noncommittalness, possible busing, and Shanba's dying wish.

[the silent speaker]

CKD, both Simenon and Belgarion have innocent investigations on them. I'd rather not policy-lynch one of them if it can be helped. If you want to shirt PBuG tonight, lynch him tomorrow and I go for Shanba or any intervening pro-town deaths tomorrow night, I'm fine with that.

Also, I want people to say which three people they think are scum. I refuse to believe we have fewer than three remaining scum in a game with a reviver. My current top set is {Stark, PBuG, Fonz}. Below them are {SSF, armlx} and {ZONEACE} and a long string of highly-unlikelies.

[the silent speaker]

Sure, but I don't think he's anywhere near claim range yet, let alone lynch.

The hypocrisy, it burns. *coughflameaxecough*
(Armlx does not move up in suspicion from fourthish, though.)

Nocmen, enough of the confirmation is bolstered by proven use of role in furtherance of the town that I'm not that fussed. (Plus I am biased as a direct beneficiary.) Also, one-shots pretty much can't be insane. Anyway, even bearing in mind that investigations come with a grain of salt, innocent result > no result at all. If you target Fonz and get innocent on him too, then I'll worry about naiveté.

[the silent speaker]

Nada. But then I wouldn't expect to.

[the silent speaker]

ZONEACE, we ought to have at least three non-zombie-cult-scum. We have at most three zombie-cult-scum, and I know essentially for a fact that we have zero, so we should work on the scum that we know is there rather than wasting a day striking at shadows that we can always find out later about.

[the silent speaker]

Is there some reason Nocmen can't vig PBuG?

[the silent speaker]

Well, if you don't want to test the vigging (and I think it's worth taking a shot since if successful it will be obvious to all) then I recommend investigating PBuG or Fonz. The more obviously scum your investigative targets, the better the odds that a string of innocent results comes from being naive. Innocents on scope and belg don't tell us all that much.

[the silent speaker]

I've seen a death cult, FWIW.

CKD, what does it matter if no one sayss they made a reviving role? People have been coming back.

[the silent speaker]

We should not lynch Kison, because there's an innocent on him -- from Simenon, I think. That leaves PBuG, and after him Fonz, and then we're back to Armlx and Stark.

[the silent speaker]

Also, why is SSF off your list TSS?

I

thought

I was missing somebody. Still behind Fonz, but with Stark tying himself to Armlx's pancreas, SSF can go in front of them.

[the silent speaker]

TSS can ressurect, whether as town or scum.

A scum resurrector would have been resurrecting scum.

[the silent speaker]

Is it just me, or is all we do in this game to run someone up to claim, then conclude from their role they can't be scum?

Not

all

. I think you, for example, are scum in spite of your claim.

[the silent speaker]

We should lynch PBuG.

[the silent speaker]

Oh, I believe you have the double vote, Fonz. I just think you have it as scum.

why [should we lynch PBuG]?

Because he's obviously scum.

[the silent speaker]

Name one pro-town thing he or any of his three predecessors has done.

[the silent speaker]

He's the only unclaimed-and-uninvestigated person not to have been on either scum bandwagon.

[the silent speaker]

Wrong on both counts. One, it wasn't at all scummy, since it barely hindered you and ensured to the town that your votes were being used wisely. Second, Oman was high on my suspect list all along.

[the silent speaker]

Hello nonny! Claimordieplz.

[the silent speaker]

Vote: nonny

Not good enough. Not good enough by half.

Lynch minus two.

[the silent speaker]

I haven't fullclaimed. Oman claimed part of the role.

Fonz needs to die next.

[the silent speaker]

Jedi was a dumb kill.

I am not opposed to a SSF lynch, but I'm not thrilled by the thought. He did after all contribute to two scum lynches. Still, a claim would not be too amiss.

Armlx's contribution to the nonny lynch partially expiates his coming after me with a chainsaw when I tried to get nonny lynched the day before. Also stark vouches for him.

Fonz has not contributed to either of the last two scum lynches, this on top of all the other scummy behavior perpetrated by Oman and Fonz, with which I will not further weary your eyes except to note that it wasn't just his rejection of the offer -- not by a country mile -- and it wasn't either of them alone.

Vote: Fonz

.

[the silent speaker]

I targeted Shanba again, because who else? I also asked about resurrecting lynchees and it turns out that I can, at least in principle.

The lynch is to be Fonz. We can deal with ZONEACE tomorrow. He could easily be lying scum, and should not still be alive two days hence, but we lose nothing by lynching the other scum first.

SSF, you're the only not-obvtown whose role is not known. That alone is reason enough for us to consider forcing you. If you haven't claimed by the time Fonz is dead, we will almost certainly have no choice but to do more than consider. If Z turns up dead neutral between now and then, and you haven't claimed something convincing, we will probably do well to consider a policy lynch.

[the silent speaker]

For da record:

SSF352 DID vote to lynch: schism, nonny
ZONEACE DID vote to lynch: nonny
KaleiÐoscøpe DID vote to lynch: schism, JDodge, nonny
Sir Tornado DID vote to lynch: JDodge, nonny (on credit)
armlx DID vote to lynch: JDodge, nonny
stark DID vote to lynch: schism, JDodge
Kison DID vote to lynch: JDodge, nonny
mneme DID vote to lynch: schism, JDodge
Belgarion DID vote to lynch: schism, JDodge, nonny
Simenon DID vote to lynch: schism
The Fonz DID vote to lynch: schism
Twomz DID vote to lynch: JDodge, nonny
Nocmen DID vote to lynch: nonny (was dead for the JDodge lynch)
the silent speaker DID vote to lynch: JDodge, nonny (FOSed schism, but admittedly you have only my word that I was pro-schismdeath)

The two people worst off with this data are Simenon and, guess who, Fonz. Everyone else but Nocmen (who has a protown excuse) and ZONEACE (who has a not-protown excuse) has voted for two scum at least. (Admittevly, Sir T is an iffy case, but we're not lynching him anytime soon.) What's more, nocmen and Z killed scum more recently than Fonz and Simenon. Also, the first three distinct people on my bandwagon were Armlx, Fonz and known scum PBuG. Simenon has other reasons to think he's pro-town but FONZ NEEDS TO DIE NOW.

[the silent speaker]

in my defense I genuinely believe jdodge to not be scum.

Still?

Nocmen: No, my reasoning is not based solely on voting. Oman was a mass of contradictions, and Fonz is little less scummy himself. But the voting supports me.

Why can't an anti-town role have a multivote?

[the silent speaker]

Here's what mneme's claim makes me want to do. Today we lynch Fonz, and if he's scum then tonight we investigate SSF and/or vig Z and tomorrow we lynch mneme (or a guilty cop result). If mneme speaks true, we waste a lynch but probably have only one or two scum left and an unlynchable townie on top of everything. If mneme speaks false, we lynch another scum automatically.

[the silent speaker]

A small sample of why the Fonzhate:

I think scism tried to push the lynch onto Kscope before he was lynched.

Vote Kscope I think his interactions with schism suggest him scum.

Whoops! Thats what I get for not rereading each day.

I actually infered that Kscope was town because Schism kept trying to push the lynch back onto him.

Vote Kscope

I see very little validity in Jdodge wagon. My vote is for schisms behaviour towards KScope.

[the silent speaker]

Keith Richards here. I raise the dead. Results not guaranteed. Mick Jagger sucks.

[the silent speaker]

If we go for one of Stark and armlx, armlx targeted me the same night known scum did. I go back and forth whether that's in his favor or against him. (The contradiction N1 is big big against him, of course.) I still think Fonz is worth poking at, but he can at least be retrospied tonight.

[the silent speaker]

Unless someone comes forward and says they designed Fonz's role, I think he's pulling a Pumpkin Gambit, because seriously, yes, Fonz, an unlynchable bulletproof multivoter

is

broken. My role, at least the scum can start whittling the town after I die. You win 1-2 endgames and are guaranteed to reach them? Especially

with

a known resurrector in the game.

I am, however, just fine with a Stark lynch.

Stark, what is a "double" or "single" bodyguard?

[the silent speaker]

So someone who resurrects dead players as confirmed town isn't broken?

Slightly less so. What is more, while either is broken alone, both together are broken cubed. And something that resurrects people is known to exist, since people have been resurrected.

[the silent speaker]

Simenon, one of those rezzes was the night you blocked all scum.

vote mneme

for the testing. But I still prefer Stark and Fonz as the scum; note that mneme and Fonz both claimed some form of bulletproof unlynchable. If mneme is town, Fonz just about has to be scum, on that consideration alone.

[the silent speaker]

I had a thought: providing mneme works as advertised, is there any compelling reason not to have Nocmen vig stark and Sir Tornado copy Nocmen to Fonz? Scum multideath FTW.

(Twomz doc senses SSF, and Kison protects Twomz. I do the resurrection puppy. Armlx does what he likes so loong as it doesn't interfere with the above; newly-confirmed-town mneme would be a safe pick for one person.)

[the silent speaker]

Bel:

vote stark..think his claim is full of lies.

Of course it is, but he's getting vigged. This way we make assurance double sure. (For the record I opine that mneme is town, but lynching him costs nothing and gains confirmation.)

As Jedi has some shirts yet to hand out, he wouldn't be a

bad

resurrect. I'll choose one of them and I see no need to inform the town which ahead of time.

Otherwise I endorse the armlx plan. This includes the ssf-investigates-armlx part -- armlx has claimed his targets, so you know what nights to avoid, ssf -- and if ssf dies tonight, armlx is policy-lynched at the first available opportunity.

[the silent speaker]

I think Twomz should protect SSF tonight to insure the only way he could die is if I was lying.

This.

[the silent speaker]

Simenon: I disagree. The only reason for Fonz to be so desperate not to be vigged is that he is scum and knows what vigging will cost his side. Contrast armlx's equanimity to the prospect of being lynched tomorrow on policy if SSF should wake up dead; this is because armlx knows that his lynch will aid the town's best chance of winning. The same applies to mneme's consent to his own lynch today.

Also, there are plenty of other reasons why Fonz must die.

[the silent speaker]

But without a counter-theory, which he has not and cannot have, he has no reason to be angry. His claim brings us no reason to believe it is true and his play gives us no reason to think he is town.

[the silent speaker]

There's plenty of reason to think someone other than me is the scum.

Name two. Give reasons.

[the silent speaker]

Fonz's reply to my challenge is about what I figured: nothing. I see no reason to prolong the day.

[the silent speaker]

P.S. Fonz, we have three docs, count 'em, one two three. We have armlx, we have Kison, we have twomz. Plus sir Tornado is a role copier who has used it for some freelance medical.

Twomz was revealed to be a real doc by the mod on death.

Kison was revealed to be innocent by cop investigation.

Sir Tornado has been seen to copy.

Armlx will be either confirmed tomorrow or lynched tomorrow, as per his own plan.

Who, exactly, is lying here?

[the silent speaker]

I support the plan and move to adjourn.

[the silent speaker]

No, I think mneme has a point. Anyone he could investigate will already have been cleared or doomed, at least of being mafia:
SSF352 part of tonight's work
KaleiÐoscøpe self
Sir Tornado by Twomz
armlx part of tonight's work
stark part of tonight's work
Kison by Simenon
mneme by today's lynch
Belgarion by mod
Simenon by Twomz
The Fonz part of tonight's work
Twomz by mod
Nocmen by mod
the silent speaker by Twomz

One of the above could be a godfather, but that wouldn't show up on investigation anyway.

P.S. SSF, it is IMPERATIVE that you target armlx on a night of your choosing. Otherwise how will we know who to lynch if you die?

[the silent speaker]

EBWOP:
1) "on a night of your choosing" means "tonight, looking at a night of your choosing."

2) Simenon, if someone has something important to say -- like the current discussion on Scope's best strategy -- then by all means say it. I only mean that I do't want to wait on Fonz.

[the silent speaker]

words

The condemned will not speak.

[the silent speaker]

You are Keith Richards. You look 800 years old but seem to have found the secret to clinging to life despite all the drugs you've ingested. Pirate code suggests that you should pass this on to others. Mick Jagger could care less. Each night you must target one of the dead and raise them back to life with your dead father's ashes, but with rather unpredictable results.

You could care less who wins, as long as you survive.

Um, I was pro-town. I went back to my role PM and checked.