Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Battle Mage]

lol hi guys. I havent read through yet, but im going to guess from the last page that TVZ has done something really dumb.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok folks, i'm here. I'm not quite sure what happened yesterday- i still havent reread (i'm not going to read an entire game and then find out that i was NKed and unable to post anything. lol)

I don't like MoS's rolefishing on this page, or directing power roles. I think he is stating the obvious, and it's hard to see what his comments hope to achieve.

Will reread and make some analysis soon.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Setael... You are dead.

BM. Did you miss ZONEACE directing the Doc last night? Didn't hear anything on that from you... What MoS said was much less directive than ZONEACE. K-scope tried to direct the vig at the end of day 1 too. No comment on that from you either. And, remind me why directing power roles is bad too.

Ether, what exactly do you find scummy in my post?

I havent read that stuff yet. lol
I only commented on MoS's post because i saw a glaring scumtell. Directing power roles is scummy in this context, because it was pretty obvious who the Watcher would target. There was no reason for that comment, other than to fish for a power role.

Hence, scummy.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Setael... You are dead.

BM. Did you miss ZONEACE directing the Doc last night? Didn't hear anything on that from you... What MoS said was much less directive than ZONEACE. K-scope tried to direct the vig at the end of day 1 too. No comment on that from you either. And, remind me why directing power roles is bad too.

Ether, what exactly do you find scummy in my post?

I havent read that stuff yet. lol
I only commented on MoS's post because i saw a glaring scumtell. Directing power roles is scummy in this context, because it was pretty obvious who the Watcher would target. There was no reason for that comment, other than to fish for a power role.

Hence, scummy.

BM

I don't see how it was obvious for that to be the plan. I really don't. Sure, it seems like common sense now that I've said it, but I really doubt everyone would have thought of that plan.

You underestimate us.

[Battle Mage]

Okay. Regarding ZONEACE, apart from one random vote at first, Mastermind of Sin defends him (albeit without giving much reason) from nearly the start. Erg0 makes a reasoned argument regarding metagaming ZONEACE, and MoS jumps on this and exaggerates it into a reason for voting Sir Tornado, apparently simply because Sir Tornado voted for ZONEACE, asserting

ZONEACE is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy." When accused of copying Erg0's argument, he responds: "How did I just copy what Erg0 said? I said I agreed with him and then attacked Sir Tornado. Just because half a sentence said the same thing Erg0 said does not mean I copied him.

Vanishes for a while. Then this:

Where did I say I mentioned a reason not to lynch ZONEACE? You can't say it's not true, because what I said was that I stated ZONEACE shouldn't be lynched, and you are agreeing with me while saying that I lied at the same time. That's inconsistent.

In addition, it was early in D1. I didn't think that ZONEACE's wagon would get to the point where I felt I needed to supply a reason. I was giving people a chance to look into him on their own, which they didn't. You haven't either, apparently, or you'd know that ZONEACE just came back recently, having been gone for something like 2 1/2 years.

Yes, I latched onto Erg0's logic and agreed with it. I FUCKING SAID THIS ALREADY. Why do you feel the need to repeat something that I have

already admitted

to doing? It doesn't change the fact that I made a specific attack on someone that jumped on the wagon, something that Erg0 did not do. I agreed with his reasoning, but I also expanded from there and found someone scummy for their actions regarding ZONEACE. Erg0 had nothing to do with that.

The request for Lemming to be removed from the game by the mod, basically for annoying ZONEACE.

Then Erg0 and MoS congratulate each other for a little while by quoting each other and appending QFT. MoS argues with JDodge for a bit about White, and then votes White, saying "The inconsistencies TS pointed out seem really blaring. Since I do tend to hate on the Oppressor, I could see him trying to buddy up to me if he was scum. A valid point was made, and I'll follow up on it."

This looks like classic distancing to me, accusing but backing off in the same paragraph:

I think TS is scum who felt an easy wagon on White and pushed it just a little too hard. However, I still think Zorg is more likely scum than TS. They could easily be scumbuddies, though. I don't remember either of them ever commenting on the other. Scum often forget to comment on each other because they don't want to be associated together.

ToasterStrudel catches some heat, and Mastermind of Sin votes her, then unvotes when she makes her false cop claim. And here's where some of us think MoS made his fatal mistake:

Most of this post strikes me wrong, and I'm thinking that you're claiming cop just to survive a couple extra days. So IGMEOY: TS

However, even a counterclaim won't prove TS scum, since we could have multiple cops. I'm willing to give TS a chance for now, but we need to watch her like a hawk. She'll slip eventually if she's scum.

Also notice that she *still* hasn't answered many of the accusations against her.

It's all very good distancing, except that at this point it doesn't really look like we have multiple cops, and so his statement in advance of Lemming's counterclaim seems to be a defense of TS in case there was such a counterclaim. Erg0 comes to MoS's defense on this (oooh, seeing a pattern here): "Regardless of your own experience, on this site it's relatively common to have multiple cops (not sane cops, but cops all the same) in a game of this size. I don't come into a game thinking "oh, there will be multiple cops in this game", but seeing multiple cop claims on day 1 forces me to consider the possibility." But at the point that MoS made his statement about multiple cops, ONLY ToasterStrudel had claimed cop. So MoS did NOT see multiple cop claims before his statement.

Some heated debate, and Erg0 again supports MoS's argument: "Unsurprisingly, I agree with MoS about the content of his earlier post. Please, let's skip the "I'm the cop, do as I say" discussion. We're just wasting more time here."

I don't fault MoS at all for his arguing against lynching a claimed cop (ToasterStrudel) on Day One. This seems like sound reasoning and I actually find it pretty protown on his part. ZONEACE puts a vote on ToasterStrudel during this time period, for reasons I actually understood for once, and MoS says nothing at all about it, however. Which seems sort of off, considering how protective MoS has been of ZONEACE to this point... or maybe it doesn't. Waits for the cops to claim, and indicates suspicion of ToasterStrudel (again, not scummy in my eyes, because that's what most of the town was thinking at that point, so far as I can tell).

Then he claims he hasn't read most of the recent arguments, and makes this extremely weird comment:

And now I got to page 54...did the cops claim and I missed that?

after ToasterStrudel had already been lynched-- a convenient excuse for not having voted for her? Could be.

Still hyperprotective of ZONEACE even at this point. And Erg0 comes to MoS's defense yet again.

I find the linkages between these three players suspicious. It's possible there's an innocent explanation, but they've linked themselves together pretty dramatically at this point, and I'm not seeing a pro-town reason why that should be.

As always, correct any errors or omissions.

I STILL haven't developed the stomach to reread yet, but i think it is worth noting for those of who aren't able to Meta Zoneace, the last time i saw MoS and him play together, they interacted in nearly the same way, both defending each other hard. MoS was scum, and Zoneace was protown. (Btw, this was MoC). I find it hard to believe that as soon after this game as it is, Zoneace has forgotten this. In any case, my point is that them vouching for each other is not an indicator of them sharing alignment, but it could suggest scumminess on the part of MoS, not to mention that their vouching for each other is at best, fairly unreliable, as despite their shared games, they don't seem to have a great grasp of each other's play.

BM

[Battle Mage]

am i defending MoS hardcore?


come one BM don't let your personal issues turn into ignorance.

I wouldnt know. But that seems to be what it is being claimed atm.
What do you mean by Personal Issues?

[Battle Mage]

picked up an official prod. i WILL read through at some point over the weekend, and hopefully post before Monday.

[Battle Mage]

damnit i need to find time to look at this game
Please just hold on for a bit. We dont have a deadline-just dont do anything stupid until i am up to speed.

BM

[Battle Mage]

ok im on Page 7 and i think i've already nailed 2 scumbags
Ill continue tomorrow and post all my analysis soon. (3/4 of an a4 page atm)

BM

[Battle Mage]

ok, i'm on Page 23 now. still reading...

[Battle Mage]

bah i've been away for 48 hours. will post content either tonight or tomorrow. I believe i also need to finish rereading here?

BM

[Battle Mage]

ok i'm upto Page 39. Real soz about the delay-this is a prett hefty read i got here. lol

[Battle Mage]

@Skruffs: My assumption, based on Lemming's play, was that if you had a guilty or innocent on someone, you'd say so. And so when you placed a vote on someone, I wanted to know if you felt you had a case against him, or if it was based on an investigation, because I felt Lemming's investigations could be trusted.

I don't like unhelpful play either, but I will say that when someone announces and pre-excuses their unhelpful play, it makes me more suspicious than when someone just is generally unhelpful without making excuses. That's my main (but not only) reason to suspect Yamahako.

Right now I'm not happy that Setael hasn't weighed in, because Flare remains, in my view, the person with the most evidence against him, and she inherited that.

Additionally Battle Mage was doing analysis and said this on November 24:

ok im on Page 7 and i think i've already nailed 2 scumbags
Ill continue tomorrow and post all my analysis soon. (3/4 of an a4 page atm)

BM

and later this, on December 2:

bah i've been away for 48 hours. will post content either tonight or tomorrow. I believe i also need to finish rereading here?

BM

Battle Mage, could you post your thoughts so far, since you already caught two scum? You promised analysis and content, and I take such promises very seriously.

Ok i guess i can post what i have so far. But some of it may not be valid, because obviously i havent read the entire game.

I'll see if i can do a little more tonight, and then i'll post all that i have.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok i'm upto Page 46. Here's my analysis so far:

Analysis

Nothing strange about the random votes worth mentioning. The first BW is on Flameaxe, and perhaps the scummiest votes on there are those by Hmrox and Ckillor-who are both fairly new, and, seeing no consequences for BWing, joined in on the act. Beastly’s post 49 raised my eyebrows. Sadly he isn’t able to explain himself now, as he has been replaced. Carrotcake and Hmrox hop on his wagon justifiably. MoS seems to intentionally ignore Beastly, and votes for Hmrox, with an incomprehensible reason. Explanation appreciated.
Curious as to Erg0’s reluctance to vote Flameaxe a little later on-the first player with a half decent reason to make a serious vote on him! It feels a little off, but it might just be me being paranoid. TS joins the HMrox wagon. I’m not sure whether he is a bussy kind of guy (meta anyone?) but I reckon this is good evidence for Hmrox to be protown. I REALLY dislike the way Lemming latches onto TS’s post in order to validate more BWing. MoS changes tack again, and bails out of the hotwagon on Hmrox. But, TS’s subsequent interaction with Lemming is less scummy. Beastly tries to attack Lemming, but Lemming is consistent in his sarcasm towards the game… :p
Hmrox piles onto Lemming. Niv claims to be part of a 5-MAN MASON TEAM! Are you friggin kidding me?
He argues with Simenon who vouches for his mason claim. MoS BWs Simenon, despite admitting that it could be either player who is lying. I really don’t understand how, even if there is 1 5-man mason group-how could 1 of their members be MAFIA?
Thatd mean that the Mafia member could simply tell his buddies who was in the mason team, and the Mafia could kill them off, no? I don’t think it makes any sense to have a Mafia member in a mason group of that size, but perhaps an SK, or even a Cult (whereby the masons are recruitable-hence untrustworthy)
Flares post 92 is full of win. He picks up on a lot of the same stuff as I did. Zoneace’s post 108 is really shit reasoning for a vote on Simenon.

FoS: Zoneace

Flare, Erg0 and Yama join the wagon on Zoneace, and he continues to be over-defensive.
And then, he claims Vanilla! Omfg… This guy has reached an all new low. Zoneace’s post 123 is interesting, except had he read Mafia 58, he’d know that it isn’t true (Scotmany and Amb, both protown, argued over whether a pm had been sent or not).
Post 125=giving up scumtell from Zoneace. Why is this guy not dead yet?
If you needed more proof, up pops MoS to defend Zoneace, and push a wagon on Simenon, with no reasoning given. 2 posts later, and TS also bandwagons Simenon, with no comment about Zoneace. Ether replaces in, and says that Zoneace should be let off because he requested replacement. Erm, I’m checking the playerlist, and he hasn’t been replaced…
Page 7. More discussion about Niv vs Simenon. Zoneace brings up a good point in post 159, which goes ignored by Simenon. MoS posts once again to derail the Zoneace wagon, and start one on Simenon. Flare reiterates the case on Zoneace. MoS lurks for a while, and when he does show up, fails to respond to this. Yamahako joins the wagon on Simenon, with poor logic. And here comes Erg0 with his infamous ‘FoS, when a vote is more appropriate’. :p
I don’t like the way Sir T plays dumb about the basic rules of conduct on Page 9. By 219, Niv backtracks his accusation of Simenon, and joins the Zoneace wagon. Not sure what to make of this. Could support the theory of the discussion being a distraction from a BW on a scumbuddy, or could indicate that Niv is protown who has genuinely realised his mistake. 232 by Lemming is :good posting:. Jdodge suggests he has bad vibes about Flare. Erg0 joins the BW, claiming that he has witnessed bad play from him too. MoS then hops on, admitting his lack of reasoning, and even suggesting that he is simply going along with Erg0 and Jdodge, whom he ‘trusts’. Also, 3rd on a BW? Need I say more?
The interaction between TS and MoS in post 249 doesn’t really support this theory-indeed the vote by TS doesn’t feel like bussing. In 275, Erg0 claims to have a meta on Zoneace, indicating that he could be town. Post 278, and MoS further reiterates how ‘Certain’ he is of Zoneace being town. Other than MoS being a cop, I see no other protown explanation for this continued insistence. 281-Zoneace seems to implicitly trust MoS, which is suspicious-ESPECIALLY considering this same interaction occurred between the two in my last mini game-Match of Champions, where MoS-scum, buddied up to Zoneace-town. On the same page, Zoneace admits that he claimed prematurely because he was afraid it would go to lynch-in other words, he panicked…
He posts some of his games as scum, and Sir T unvotes. From the perspective of a lazy guy who cba to read those games as well as this, I’d like an explanation of what Sir T found.
Zeppo threatens to vote Zoneace, and immediately gets OMGUSed. Post 322 by Sir T is inconsistent with his recent Unvote. A little later he indicates that both are protown…
Beastly puts a vote on TS. Zoneace encourages prods, and gets attacked by Beastly. Zorg makes a comment about Zoneace’s general game behaviour being scummy, but from a meta-perspective, I don’t think this makes for a good case. In 367, MoS claims that his attitude towards Zoneace should earn him consistency-points
Of course, it should be noted that whilst this is true, his defence of Zoneace had NO reasoning until Erg0 showed up to bail MoS out.
If it is true that Flare is an alt, post 381 by Erg0 is pretty scummy, as he suggests that Flare knows more than he’d like him to.
Post 401 by TS doesn’t reflect well on MoS, as she suggests that her vote on him wasn’t very serious-and just an attempt to stop him ‘getting complacent’. Bussing perchance?
Post 405 by Lemming gets a massive QFT from me. Zoneace seems to be on auto-fire OMGUS mode. :p
In post 420 he claims that the case on MoS is non existent with no reasoning given. Page 18 and Ether shows up to claim that MoS is town, and Zorg and Flare are scum (presumably because they were suspicious of him). GG Ether.
I don’t like post 443 by MoS, mainly because it is totally inconsistent with his character. It basically translates to “if someone buddies upto you, just trust them. If they are defending you, they cannot be scum”. This is waaaay too short sighted for MoS-town.
Post 456, Zoneace seems to claim that in fact he is not playing how he normally does as town. Why is that? (this is pointed out by Zeppo in 458).
Post 476 by Erg0 is another attempt to derail the wagon on Zoneace. Post 490 by Erg0 is totally hypocritical. 498 is downright craplogic.
White makes good analysis about this on page 21. Zoneace continues to buttkiss Erg0.
Start of Page 23.
TS tags along with the logic of Jdodge. Zeppo adds another vote to Yamahako, and MoS BW’s aswell, with no reasoning given. Seeing a pattern?
It should also be noted that he tries to get Lemming booted out of the game. Zoneace reiterates that MoS is likely town.

Zoneace

, after Match of Champions, has your meta opinion of MoS changed atall?
On page 25, he denies requesting replacement. Post 617 made me lol. The Fonz decides to BW Booboodafool, and MoS decides to go with the momentum and hop on aswell. Later Simenon joins in aswell. Sir T draws attention to himself with a self-vote.
Zoneace decides to hop on Niv’s argument, and vote for White. Beastly decides to vote for TVZ, based on ‘his defence of Hmrox’. Hmrox, now dead protown. MoS unsurprisingly joins the latest hot wagon. Erg0 hops on aswell, with no reasoning atall. Post 704 by MoS seems to indicate that his vote on TVZ is only for pressure. Post 719 gives me a déjà vu vibes, as I swear I’ve seen that logic before by someone else. Would be interesting to see how MoS reacted to it in that game…
White seems to agree, but Zoneace, realising MoS has fingered him, tries to disregard the comment. Sure enough MoS backtracks in accordance with Zoneace’s wishes, by 729.
766 is hilariously transparent. MoS lets Erg0 deal with the whole ‘reasoning behind the BW’ and happily stays put. Aimee claims to agree with MoS and Erg0, though its hard to determine what she is claiming to agree to…
A lot of posting in another language on page 32… -.-
Page 33. Beastly is 6th on the White-wagon. 3 posts later, he changes his mind and upon orders from Erg0, votes for Zorg wagon instead.
At threat of a deadline, MoS bails from the Zorg wagon, instead latching onto logic by TS-scum, in order to place the 7th vote on White-town.
Post 852 by Simenon is interesting. He refuses to join the hot-wagon on White, instead voting for Zorg. Distancing from a lynch?
Later decides to vote for TS instead. Erg0 and White hop on aswell. Upon seeing TS under threat of getting lynched, MoS decides to sneak back onto the Zorg wagon. Meanwhile Ether and Aimee vote for TS, putting that wagon at equal in size to Whites.
Post 872 is weird. MoS claims that TS is scum, but doesn’t move his vote. I’d kind of expect him to bus at this point if he was scum…
Nonetheless, he sure seems edgy about those voting for him…
TS seems to imply that White is a member of the mason team (which turns out to be untrue)
MoS finally decides to bus TS-simultaneously tying her to Zorg. Zoneace follows MoS like a cute little puppy. Flameaxe hops on aswell, with no reasoning given. Jdodge puts TS at -2, but upon hearing TS’s claim, he changes his tune again and moves back to White.
894-MoS discourages counter-claims. He reluctantly backtracks back to a Zorg wagon. Erg0 agrees, and again, Aimee and Flameaxe inexplicably join the fun. Page 37-Simenon seems very sure of MoS-scum. Why this sudden realisation?
Lemming counters TS, despite MoS’s request. Post 927 by Erg0 reiterates MoS’s sentiments. I don’t know what ‘dethy’ means though?
Ok, I see what Simenon is getting at now, and personally, its pretty poor logic from where im sitting. It didn’t look like MoS was going to counterclaim Cop atall. In fact, that’s probably the least likely scenario from his post.
Nonetheless, Zoneace and Erg0 seems to concede that MoS looks scummy.

Page 39. Post 950 by Niv is an absolute Stinker. He FoS’s TS, then HoS’s him. Could he be any more obvious? Post 954 by Lemming is a beauty.
Zeppo votes for TS, and Aimee scolds him. Simenon follows suit. Post 997 doesn’t make sense to me-Sim claims to prefer a MoS lynch, yet votes for the claimed power role instead…
Post 1011 could be telling by Aimee.
Page 43, and MoS decides to join the Zeppo wagon this time, shortly followed by Niv, and Jdodge. Flameaxe also hops on.
Post 1083 by Sir T is very perceptive. Post 1103 by MoS is dumb.
-Page 46-

To conclude, atm, I’m thinking the scummiest players are:

MoS
Zoneace
Erg0
Niv
Aimee

And I could happily go with a lynch on any of these 5 today, although they are listed in order of preference. MoS and Zoneace are virtually certain scum, and assuming they are scum, i’m pretty happy with lumping Erg0 in aswell. Niv is an entity of his own, and definitely lynchworthy. Aimee hasn’t followed her town meta, and is also an acceptable play imo.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: MoS

seeing as he already has a vote.

[Battle Mage]

there was a question in the analysis. Is it:

A. You havent read the analysis atall.

B. You have read the analysis, but dont want to answer the question.

?

BM

[Battle Mage]

with all this going on, is everyone forgeting Y is at minus two. also, people accusing me, why am i scum?

Post 950 mainly.

@MoS-i beg to differ. Regardless on what you claim to have been your intentions in that game, here, the facts speak for themselves.

In MoC, you were scum, Zoneace was town. You buddied upto him alot, and pulled off a victory over the town with absolute ease.

Your play towards him here is ALMOST IDENTICAL, and my point is, Zoneace isnt a moron (so i'm told). Why the heck has he not taken anything in from that game, and is still totally trusting of you, even when it stabbed him in the arse fairly recently.

I dont think i'm the only person here who finds this attitude a little odd, given the circumstances, and currently you and Zoneace are pretty much on a par as far as i'm concerned.

@Erg0-what dont you like about that post? Would i be wrong to assume that its the bit about me finding you scummy?

With reference to your question, Yama isnt on my scummy list (unless he replaced someone there) so i dont think he's a great lynch atm, but ofc, as i havent read the last 20 pages of the game, i doubt my judgement is going to be great. lol
Looking at the wagon, i can see alot of potential scum on there, but whether that is bussing or not, i cant say.

BM

[Battle Mage]

The thing I don't like is that you drew the most obvious conclusion. How likely do you think it is that MoS, ZONEACE and I are

all

scum, considering the amount of buddying up that's occurred?

thats WIFOM. Obviously though its a point i've taken into account, hence im not entirely sure of you ALL being scum, but as you've said, alot of needless buddying up has gone on, and i think lynching all 3 of you will be beneficial for the town overall.

MoS-that may be how you see it, but i'm thinking from Zoneace's point of view here. You've pulled the wool over his eyes before, and i'm damn sure that if i was in his shoes, i'd be very wary about allowing you to do the same again.

BM

[Battle Mage]

It's not WIFOM, it's common sense. You need to acknowledge the basis of your theory and argue on those terms. Simply noting that we agree with each other a lot is not a case, you need to explain why it's scummy for us to do so.

Tbh, i dont think doubleposting is any substitute for a substantial argument... -.-

The reason MoS's interaction with Zoneace is scummy, is because he has played the exact same way before as scum (and i dont mean the buddying up, i mean the WAY of doing it too). Zoneace is scummy for this, because Zoneace-town would not be so trusting.

You Erg0, seem very keen to attack me and defend MoS. He has latched onto your arguments more than a few times. Again, you are a capable player, and i dont see why you are reaching so far to defend him...

Happy now?

BM

[Battle Mage]

ok lots to respond to. First off:

I was surprised BM ignored the Yama wagon in his big post, and then when erg0 questioned him on it:

With reference to your question, Yama isnt on my scummy list (unless he replaced someone there) so i dont think he's a great lynch atm, but ofc, as i havent read the last 20 pages of the game, i doubt my judgement is going to be great. lol
Looking at the wagon, i can see alot of potential scum on there, but whether that is bussing or not, i cant say.

I don't have a problem with BM not thinking Yama is scummy since I didn't on my read, either. What I do find scummy is that he avoided commenting on it, and only took a stand on it when prompted. I could see Yama and BM as scum buddies, so I'm considering hammering.

But first, has Yama claimed?

Erm, hello!?
What part of 'I've only read upto page 46 are you not grasping here?'
Someone asked me to post my analysis so far, so i did. As i havent read anything about the Yamahako wagon yet, its hardly surprising that i didnt make any judgements on it. If you hammer based on that reasoning, you are officially on the top of my 'To Lynch' List.

BM

[Battle Mage]

with all this going on, is everyone forgeting Y is at minus two. also, people accusing me, why am i scum?

Post 950 mainly.

is it that you don't like the streem of conciousness style, or soething in particular within that ost?

Did you make ANY attempt to read my analysis?
Its in chronological order, so look for the bit about that post if you cba to read anything else.

[Battle Mage]

BM: Why no comments on Yamahako? I need to go and reread your post in more detail. That said: Five scum? Your case on Erg0 and ZONEACE are based on MoSScum being linked with them in ways I don't consider very convincing - heaven forbid that MoSScum do something like accuse a scumbuddy, aye? I don't see how agreeing with Erg0 a lot or defending ZONEACE for metagame reasons means they must be buddies together. I find it rather questionable that MoS would leave himself open to this, actually. With respect to MoS being scum, I tend to agree with Bookitty's analysis of his interactions with TS, and actually I'd say that makes it less likely he's linked to Erg0 if he

is

scum. I am less than impressed with your case on Niv, which is "mostly post 950". I don't see anything scummy there - what's bad about not voting the claimed cop? As far as I can make out, your case on Aimee is essentially 'she agrees with MoS once', which is pretty poor. I think you should show how MoS and Erg0's interactions imply they're scum, and you should quite definitely expand on Niv and Aimee, considering how certain you seem to be ("definitely lynchworthy").

No comments on Yamahako, because uptill where i've read, he hasnt done anything remotely scummy. I dont see why 5 scum would be surprising, but in actuality, those 5 may not ALL be scum. They are my 5 top suspects atm. Oh and the case on Zoneace isnt dependant on MoS being scum, though i'd say the case on Erg0 is more so. I find your argument that MoS is too good to make mistakes to be a poor excuse for an excuse.

Erm, nice of your to describe TS as 'the claimed cop', but lets try using a little bit of insight here. TS is on the dead list, and was Mafia Godmother apparently. If you read the post, you should easily see what i mean. If not, go forbid you would read my explanation of the scumminess of the post in my analysis thus far!

I do wish you'd stop intentionally misconstruing my arguments in order to belittle my opinions. Aimee is acting out of character-usually she is far more active in hunting out scum, but here she seems content to follow like a sheep.

i think lynching all 3 of you will be beneficial for the town overall.

You want ALL THREE lynched? You seem remarkably sure that's you've nailed a whole batch at once. I don't like this. Depending on the number of scum, that's practically LyLo if you're wrong.

Yes. The case linking them is pretty strong from where i'm standing. You seem to be surprised at me being suspicious of more than 1 person. I'm sorry, i guess i forgot that there was only 1 scumbag left.

You Erg0, seem very keen to attack me and defend MoS. He has latched onto your arguments more than a few times. Again, you are a capable player, and i dont see why you are reaching so far to defend him...

With respect, this is pretty icky stuff. Your case (as such) on Erg0 is essentially "MoS is scum and MoS is linked with Erg0 because they agree a lot". You can't reasonably expect him not to comment.

Not sure how much stock to put in this, but both MoS and Erg0 are voting for you - this isn't just OMGUS, is it? Hmm. I don't like a lot of that, and it makes me want to re-read the Zorg case, again.

Erm no its not OMGUS. As far as i can see, they have both been on and off voting for Zorg since virtually the start of the game-pausing only to run up alternative mislynches. And please bear in mind that just because someone is voting for you, does not mean that they are not scum, and being afraid to vote for a scummy player based on this, is idiotic.

BM

[Battle Mage]

As far as i can see, they have both been on and off voting for Zorg since virtually the start of the game-pausing only to run up alternative mislynches.

Run up alternative mislynches? You mean like when we ran up Toaster Strudel, the mafia godmother? Zeppo is the only mislynch of the game so far, and only MoS was on that wagon - I was opposed to the lynch, based on seeing him play differently as scum in a game I was modding at the time. I wasn't on the White wagon either, and that's the only other situation you could possibly be referring to.

You're just changing the facts to fit your argument now.

point taken about you. I guess because of the general buddying up, i'm subconciously lumping you two together. Tell me, Erg0, have you had a look at MoS's voting record throughout the game. I'm sure it would be a pretty interesting read.

BM

[Battle Mage]

hmm...surprising.

Vote: Setael

obvobv

[Battle Mage]

Hey BM, have you finished reading the thread?

I think it's pretty obvobv that if I was scum and KNEW Yama was going to come up town, I would not have hammered since the only outcome would've been casting suspicion on myself. Cry WIFOM all you want, I'm not that stupid. I hammered because Yama was scummy and there was no way to reverse that wagon and still end the day this century.

I should've stuck to my guns on BM yesterday, even if there was no way to turn an entire town.

vote: Battle Mage

I think i made myself perfectly clear yesterday. I said that if you placed a vote on Yama, for your absolutely non-existent reasoning, you would become my top suspect, and what do you do? Not only do you ignore my warning, but you also drop a HAMMER with no further validation ATALL.

Yup, i'm happy to lynch you right now.

BM

[Battle Mage]

and no, i have a habit of not reading large amounts of stuff during the night phase, for obvious reasons.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I think i made myself perfectly clear yesterday. I said that if you placed a vote on Yama, for your absolutely non-existent reasoning, you would become my top suspect, and what do you do? Not only do you ignore my warning, but you also drop a HAMMER with no further validation ATALL.

Except for the fact that I reread him and was satisfied that I could be wrong about him, which has been happening to me a lot lately. So saying I had no further validation at all... that's a lie.

this makes no sense. You were thinking about placing a vote on him, with shite reasoning, then you read his play, discovered that he wasnt as scummy as you originally thought, and yet decided to throw the hammer down, based on your DECREASED suspicion of him?

What are you smoking, and where can the rest of us get some?



If one of the elusive Bookitty voters could explain themselves, that'd sure be swell.

BM

[Battle Mage]

So your validation for hammering Yamahako was that you were satisfied with being wrong about his alignment?

this makes no sense. You were thinking about placing a vote on him, with shite reasoning, then you read his play, discovered that he wasnt as scummy as you originally thought, and yet decided to throw the hammer down, based on your DECREASED suspicion of him?

You and MoS both seem to have misunderstood. I thought he was town when I initially replaced in and caught up on the game and therefore was not planning on voting for him at all. In another game I'm in I refused to join 2 wagons because I thought they were town and they BOTH turned out to be scum. Realizing Yama could be the 3rd time this is happening to me in like 2 weeks, I decided to reread him. The reread (as I stated when I hammered) made me realize he'd actually been very scummy and all those on the wagon were probably right instead of me. So, realizing I had probably been wrong about him (in thinking he was town) I hammered.

This doesnt make sense in the context of the allegation against u. Tell me, when you originally suggested that you wanted to lynch Yama, was that when you still felt he was protown? If so, you are hypocritical inconsistent scum. If not, your response does not correspond to the original statement made, which you have yet to defend against.

Though I still think BM is scum, this most recent bandwagon jump by Bookitty looks very scummy as well.

Let me field this one. Any lynch victim other than yourself, amirite?
oh and GG OMGUS for MoS's sake.

I dont understand why Simenon is talking about IH.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I think there's a possibility both Setael and BattleMage are scum, one defending me oddly (Battle Mage asking for explanations from people who were voting me was a little strange, and made me suspicious)

Really? I mean, i havent read the entire thread, i see 3 obvious scumbags jumping out at me, and 3 people, including a claimed cop, pop out and vote for someone else with no explanation. What part of asking explanation for that is a little strange?

BM

[Battle Mage]

yes i will do. hopefully when college finishes for xmas (wednesday).

[Battle Mage]

hmm, this is interesting. I hate to admit it, but Setael does make some pretty valid points with regard to Bookitty.
The fact that Bookitty responds with an OMGUS vote isnt exactly reassuring either.

FoS: Bookitty

The one thing that prevents me making that a vote, is the fact that i STILL feel there are better plays today. Plus i havent had time to read everything yet, so i'd appreciate prolonging the day a little longer to give me a chance to post some content.

Don't think i haven't noted MoS's opportunistic L-2 vote on Bookitty either, as the Setael wagon shrunk.

@Sir T- I had that same problem a few weeks ago (as Zindy will tell you). I rang my mate and he told me how to fix it. I can't actually remember the intricacies of it, but did you by any chance, hold your finger on the 'Shift' key for longer than 8 seconds?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, are you even paying attention? When I voted Setael, there were only 2 votes on her. After I unvoted, there were only 3 votes on her. Her wagon has never been more than 3 people besides myself, so how has the Setael wagon "shrunk"?

It sounds more like you were keeping track of how changing your votes would look on yourself and saw the tide turning against BooKitty. You saw me unvoted Setael, who you were also voting, and you thought that it would look opportunistic for you to drop the Setael vote after other people had just done it. Therefore, you specifically supported the BooKitty wagon without dropping the Setael suspicion so that you could have the best of both worlds. And since you thought that switching off the Setael wagon would look bad on you, you figured you could pin the same charge on me, since I'd already done it. That's what it looks like to me, BM.

wait a sec.
So you're accusing me of being scummy, because you think i considered doing what you did? rofl.
And you think that i'm supporting the suspicion on Bookitty, whilst keeping my vote on Setael, for what reason exactly?
Because they are both my scumbuddies, and i want to look good tomorrow?

lol i'm loving your logic here MoS, i really am.

BM

[Battle Mage]

That's a good vote count. My top 3 suspects are all being voted.

i have to wonder if that is a coincidence...

Its wednesday, so college is finished for the term! Tomorrow, or Friday, i should be able to finish reading the game!

BM

[Battle Mage]

I believe that is a Zing.

Vote : Mastermind of Sin

You should know better, Skruffs. Please don't be lazy like me.

appeal to emotion. STILL need to read the rest of the game. ZOMFG!

[Battle Mage]

That's not an appeal to emotion.

Read it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

read it, and i stand by my comment.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Moar please.

[Battle Mage]

read ur pms.

[Battle Mage]

i did, im considering it. will respond tomorrow or thursday

ok cool.

[Battle Mage]

So now I see why Jdodge didn't pick up all my game related pms last night. ):

rofl.

And ftr, me and Zoneace have not been communicating game related stuff out of game during the day. But, i will be conversing with him tonight. That is all.

[Battle Mage]

Yet another awesome top of page votecount.

it'd be more awesome if it listed the votes imho.

Yeh, take that, Irish hater!

[Battle Mage]

For the record, the votecount looks accurate to me.

You so scummy, we lynch you, yes?

[Battle Mage]

I acknowledge Bookitty's claim but will not move my vote.

Why are you not doing the obvious and asking members of the claimed mason group whether Bookitty is indeed a mason?
So. Easily. Confirmable.

[Battle Mage]

Ummm.... if Bookitty's a mason, why is Simenon voting for her?

I believe this means either Boo or Sim is the "untrustworthy" mason. My money's still on Bookitty being scum.

Just in case I'm wrong,

unvote

. I'd like to get everyone's take on the claim before any hammering happens.

Thats dumb logic. Or is it scum logic? I sincerely hope my vote is on you.

Amazing as this may sound, assuming Boo and Sim are both masons, they might just be genuinely suspicious of each other!
It does not mean 1 of them has to be untrustworthy, but it does indicate that they have some reason to think it is worthwhile to off the other one.
Either way, the fact that you are potentially trying to set up multiple lynches based on an obvious inaccuracy, is intensely scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Setael

So obviously scum its not even funny anymore.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@Battle Mage: Niv already confirmed me, so I don't think anyone doubts my claim. That said, I still don't understand the case against me.

Ah ok. In that case, i find it hard to see why anyone is pushing a lynch on you with this verocity. I mean, you're unconfirmed right? So presumably 1 or more of the mason group members are anti-town, unless the mod is simply pushing paranoia to weaken the group. Even so, you have 4 members left, and probably only 1 or 2 at most are scum? I'd rather we spent our time hunting mafia, and i see no good reason to let Setael live at this point.

Will read today hopefully.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Skruffs-what do you think about Setael?

[Battle Mage]

Read upto Page 69. Nearly there folks!

[Battle Mage]

Completed the rest of my analysis this morning:

Carrying on from Page 47. Day 2 starts, and MoS immediately makes a BW vote on Zorg, then appears pissed off when Zorg replaces out. K-Scope hops on aswell. Zoneace chooses to place a vote on Lemming, of the two cops, rather than TS which is interesting. He continues to push the ridiculous view that multiple sane cops is reasonable, and mysteriously, uses this as validation for a vote on 1 of the claimed cops. Is anyone else feeling pretty confused right about now? Ah good, apparently Simenon sees what I do. Gives me good vibes. Sir T says that Lemmings claim was believable, but still wants him to claim first. Gives me less good vibes. Setael gives TS a get out of jail free card (but later turns out to be protown anyway)
MoS meanwhile attacks TS very hard. It would be wise at this point to ask, has anyone been scum with MoS before? Is he the kind of guy who would bus his buddies hard?
Lemming waits till after TS’s claim before claiming himself. Sir T immediately votes for Lemming, which is not surprising at this point. Then Fonz claims Tracker. Note Zoneace’s immediate reaction in post 1217. K-Scope bickers with Simenon while the wagon on TS accumulates. Post 1238 is also scummy. Zoneace tries to desperately prove that he had attacked TS previously, presumably in an attempt to distance. His only defence is the WIFOM ‘I’m not scum’. Lol

Page 51. Zoneace claims that both claimed cops are scum, in an attempt to get Lemming lynched tomorrow. SOOO transparent. Then he tries to suggest the doc should not protect the Cop. OMG, why is he not dead yet? Erg0 spots this on Page 52. As the TS wagon gets bigger, you can actually see Zoneace get more and more agitated and stressed. Erg0 promises to analyse Zoneace tomorrow. Post 1305 by Bookitty is misleading, but whether it is deliberate or not remains to be seen. Post 1334 by Niv is laughable. I get the strong impression this guy doesn’t believe a word of what he says. The hammer on TS reeks of bussing. Post 1349 made me ROFL. TS’s post after the hammer seems strange. Probably a null tell, but it strikes me as odd. Post 1351 is perhaps the scummiest post in the game. It makes me 90% sure that Niv is scum.

Page 56. K-Scope makes an inexplicable vote for Bookitty. Erg0 claims to understand the reasoning. Lemming claims to have been Roleblocked. At the time, and to this point, I don’t like MoS’s rolefishing on this page. I don’t like Ethers reasoning for starting a Yama wagon-the logic seems to be that because 2 people on his wagon were town, he is more likely to be scum. I like Bookitty’s vote on Zoneace, and Sir T feels genuinely protown. Niv’s attack on MOS makes me think they aren’t both scum together. Erg0 blatantly breadcrumbs Doc. Bookitty attacks MoS hard aswell, but Erg0 continues to defend him loyally. Simenon claims suspicion of MoS, but sticks with pressuring Jdodge. Page 58. Zoneace continues to whine on about the tracker. Lurks in plain sight. Jdodge strongly defends MoS, and attacks Bookitty for no reason.Sir T votes MoS. Erg0’s post 1435 is hypocritical.

Page 59. Ether claims to support a Flare lynch most, but thinks Yama is scummy enough for a vote too. Post 1463 by Bookitty is a beauty. Zoneace responds with an OMGUSsy vote. Simenon continues to attack MoS, but puts a vote on the Yama wagon. MoS starts a spree of monster posts. Most notably post 1478 in which he admits that in MoC, he defended Zoneace heavily as scum, and Zoneace was town in that game. I STILL don’t see why Zoneace would trust MoS after this game, unless he has done this as town aswell.
Jdodge defends both MoS and myself, and offers support to all the other wagons. Not exactly in his character…
Aimee pops up again with the inexplicable ‘I hate Zorg’ comment. Again, no reasoning, and blatant lurking. MoS argues with Simenon.

Page 61. Simenon’s LoS seems a bit off. Post 1506 certainly gives the impression of vagueness. Post 1512 by Aimee is suspicious, as she STILL neglects to give reasoning for her suspicions, instead hinting that she is merely defending MoS.
MoS on the other hand DOES give reasons for his suspicions. For those who spend the time checking the places he has linked to, you don’t need me to tell you that they both go to posts by MoS himself. The second link goes to an unvalidated accusation that Zorg was flinging suspicion around. I don’t know whether this is reasonable or not, but I’d expect some actual proof from MoS here. The first has no real relevance to Zorg atall-in fact, its probably a mistake, As it merely exhibits MoS acting over-defensive.
Elmo acts agreeable but doesn’t elaborate. Post 1534, MoS makes an excuse should he need to ditch the BM wagon, and run up Flare instead. Post 1538, Aimee gets nervous at votes on Bookitty. Possible ties? Elmo claims that Flare is not lurking. Bookitty and Jdodge add their votes to the Yama wagon, which begins to compete with that on Flare. Jdodge doesn’t give any reasoning. Zoneace goes with the flow and piles on, on the grounds of lurking, despite the fact that YAMA HADNT BEEN LURKING.
Bookitty seems genuinely keen to see my analysis, as is MoS. Flare is replaced by Setael for chronic lurking. Niv moves his vote to Yama. Yama shows up and accuses MoS of making a bogus case against him. MoS responds defensively, and by putting Yama at L-2. Skruffs replaces Lemming, and makes some reasonable points about the setup. Interesting to see MoS excuse Flare against Yama. Aimee lurks in plain sight.

Page 65. Yama claims to have reread and votes MoS, but doesn’t explain his vote. Skruffs votes for Zoneace, and he responds with the same old WIFOM defence. 1623, Bookitty rolefishes against the claimed Cop. Apparently Skruffs hated the Yama wagon, as he FoS’ed virtually everyone on it. Setael is back, this time with suspicion of me. Reasoning given is the interaction between TS and Zorg apparently. I post my analysis up to where I had read at the time. Zoneace responds sarcastically, without having read the analysis, else deliberately avoids the questions to him therein. MoS and Erg0 both try to undermine the analysis.
Page 67. Erg0 puts Yama at -1. Erg0 defends himself pretty well against my case on him. Setael quickly hammers Yamahako. Jdodge votes for Setael with good reason. Simenon votes for Jdodge. Explanation would be helpful. MoS votes for me as per usual. Scope votes for Bookitty, and I vote for Setael. Setael subsequently claims that she should have stuck with voting for me. barely disguised OMGUS vote. MoS seems to get a grip and votes for Setael. Skruffs follows K-Scope onto the Bookitty wagon (of 2). Bookitty votes for Setael aswell, upon noticing his inconsistency. Then Setael OMGUS suspects Bookitty.

Page 69. I don’t like the post by Simenon here, in which he strongly tries to derail the Setael wagon. Potentially defending a scumbuddy, potentially just not reading the game. Either way, suspicious. Ether seems protown, although it could be because his opinions fit well with my own. Post 1710 is a stinker on the part of Niv, especially as it shows he had not read MoS’s post preceding his own. Skruffs claims he was roleblocked again. On the one hand, it seems like an easy way to get out of claiming more results, but on the other hand, Lemming seemed very protown, and with a GF dead, and Skruffs earlier analysis, Mafia Roleblocker seems a reasonable possibility. Post 1732 seems overly defensive. Bookitty, after Elmo votes for me, seems to consider pushing the new alternative wagon too. Setaels post 1741 is as much a circumstantial defence of herself as an analysis of others. She then votes Bookitty, and is met with an OMGUS vote. Simenon jumps to the side of Setael. Would those 2 buddy up so obviously as scum? MoS hops on aswell. I mention something about MoS, and he immediately gets OMGUSsy using bad logic to divert attention away from himself. Interesting that at this point, both Setael and Bookitty claim to believe that the other is scumpartners with me, yet neither is voting for me. Skruffs votes for MoS. Post 1774 by Setael is pretty sound.

Page 72. Bookitty seems keen to tie Setael to MoS. Wonder why? I have to say, Setael’s arguments on this page seem more convincing. Post 1795 by MoS is Appeal to Emotion. Zoneace points out an anomaly in KJ’s analyis. I don’t really understand where Skruffs is going on Page 74. Especially as he totally ignores the comment made by Simenon on the previous page.

Page 75. Bookitty claims Mason. Strange that this hadn’t been revealed sooner, with so many people who could potentially confirm it. Niv confirms, and Setael makes an obviously misleading post. Niv and Simenon both seems to think Bookitty is scum mason. I don’t think Skruffs conclusion in post 1860 is very realistic. Ether is also revealed as part of the mason clique, and also thinks Bookitty is scum. Simenon finally realizes the poor voting history of MoS, and votes for him. By post 1881 I’ve discovered an awesome time saving device. Rather than scrolling up long posts to find out whether they were written by Setael, its actually possible to read a sentence or two, spot the horrific attempt at logic, and discover that it was a post of hers. Bookitty votes for Simenon. OMGUS? Setael starts a new wagon. Ether votes for KJ aswell. KJ continues to hint at suspecting me, but still doesn’t validate it with an actual vote. Sir T finally votes for Simenon.

Almost Certainly Scum
Setael II
Mastermind of Sin
ZONEACE

Probably Scum
Korejora
Niv
Bookitty

Probably Protown
Elmo
Simenon
JDodge
KaleiÐoscøpe

Almost Certainly Protown
Ether
Skruffs
Sir Tornado

The only thing that has happened since then is Simenon's suspicious BW vote on Bookitty which seems to have elements of OMGUS. Still, i think in light of his overall play, i'm reasonably satisfied that he isnt the play for a day or two at least. As a Setael lynch doesnt seem too likely atm, my vote goes to the next best candidate.

Unvote, Vote: MoS

BM

[Battle Mage]

^makes a pleasant change.


sorry couldnt resist.

[Battle Mage]

This is why I was suspicous that the other nightkill was from an SK: The sk might have tried a kill on me thinking the mafia would also try a kill on me which would override any doctors.

Anyways, it's why I Was suspicious of the person who was pretty sure there was a vig.

But then by the same logic, surely the SK, knowing that the Cop had been roleblocked, would target someone else. I'd say its probably more likely that either 1 of the scumgroups was otherwise incapacitated, or that both targetted Erg0 in light of his Doc breadcrumb.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Okay, am I the only one that thinks that Battle Mage's post is lacking in support and explanation?

No, in honesty its probably more a case of few people bothering to read it. I'd have expected at least some comments on it before now in light of the activity. :p

Bookitty claims Mason. Strange that this hadn’t been revealed sooner, with so many people who could potentially confirm it.

I am pretty sure more masons being outed was

not

popular with the ladies today.

Lol in case you havent read the game yet, i think its wise to remind you that we've already had mason claims in the game before today. Simenon and Niv to name a couple.

By post 1881 I’ve discovered an awesome time saving device. Rather than scrolling up long posts to find out whether they were written by Setael, its actually possible to read a sentence or two, spot the horrific attempt at logic, and discover that it was a post of hers.

Ouch? Do you want to point out where she gave contradictory or invalid arguments, instead of just saying you think she sucks, or whatever that was supposed to mean?

I wasnt saying that she sucks. I'm with Setael in alot of games, and her logic is usually fine. Similarly i am told on good authority from others that Setael is an excellent player. Hence i am a bit miffed about her comments in this game, which dont fit the persona. I'll go through and point out some examples in a sec.

KJ continues to hint at suspecting me, but still doesn’t validate it with an actual vote.

Actually, I voted you

in that post

. And I explained why I wasn't voting anyone before that post; I'm sorry if my reason just wasn't

good enough

for you.

Lol dont get upset with me. If i recall, you neglected to make a legitimate vote (and by legitimate, i mean a vote that actually counts towards the votecount.) Underlining does not a good vote make.

I hope this solves any problems you were having with my continued analysis.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Oh yeh i remember. The whole mason discussion really let her down i think. This logic below is a continuation of the same trend despite me pointing out the logical error:

I am now torn. If I was wrong about Bookitty and she is a town mason, it makes sense for Simenon now to change his vote to MoS, since if Boo comes up town, the odds become higher that Simenon is the scum mason. Plus, he's not making sense to me. The Niv suspicion being his first reason to move off Bookitty, and then instead of going for Niv he votes MoS. Again could be because any mason who comes up town narrows it down. Plus he outed Ether regardless of what he says.

The logic in the quote above is atrocious beyond words. Capish?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Lol in case you havent read the game yet, i think its wise to remind you that we've already had mason claims in the game before today. Simenon and Niv to name a couple.

Yes, yes, I get it, you think that because some of the masons had claimed that the rest of the masons should have also claimed. I just think you're wrong.

No you clearly dont get it, because thats not what i said atall. I'm saying that as Simenon and Niv had ALREADY claimed, they could easily have confirmed Bookitty's masonhood, especially as they were voting for her!

The less the scum knows, the better, so unless there's a better reason for one of the masons to claim, such as what Bookitty had, then IMHO, the masons should have stayed quiet, as they did. Well, besides the Ether issue. You notice how no one liked that? Maybe you thought it was the right play, since you seem to think the masons should have come out a lot sooner.

A sounds bit of advice would be, dont try and get clever until you are sure you understand what the other person is talking about.

Lol dont get upset with me. If i recall, you neglected to make a legitimate vote (and by legitimate, i mean a vote that actually counts towards the votecount.) Underlining does not a good vote make.

Are you just making false assumptions to try and make me look bad? I find lying about the obvious to not be such an effective strategy, personally. Or maybe you just don't read votecounts. No wait, the mod must be lying... yeah, that's it.

Lol dont be so over-defensive. Guess what, as far as i'm aware, votes usually only count when you put them in bold. If it makes you happier, i'll go and check whether the Mod made an exemption for you, but regardless, from my perspective, and i suspect the perspective of the majority, your vote was not really legitimate. Have i drawn any false conclusions from that? Erm, nope. So before you accuse me of setting you up or something similar, you really ought to get some idea of context. Why we are even discussing this is beyond me...

I am now torn. If I was wrong about Bookitty and she is a town mason, it makes sense for Simenon now to change his vote to MoS, since if Boo comes up town, the odds become higher that Simenon is the scum mason. Plus, he's not making sense to me. The Niv suspicion being his first reason to move off Bookitty, and then instead of going for Niv he votes MoS. Again could be because any mason who comes up town narrows it down. Plus he outed Ether regardless of what he says.

The logic in the quote above is atrocious beyond words. Capish?

No, sorry, I don't understand how a town mason turning up doesn't narrow down the scum mason possibilities, or how the reasons she thinks Simenon outed Ether are wrong. Maybe you could help me out, here. I'm obviously logically handicapped.

The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one. An easy way to explain the problem is by seeing whether you draw the same conclusion as Setael.

Do you think that the fact that Simenon and Niv are voting for Bookitty means that 1 side must be anti-town?
Equally do you think that it is reasonable to suppose that Simenon would choose to run up a large Bandwagon on Bookitty, if he DIDNT WANT BOOKITTY LYNCHED, because it would make it more likely that he was an anti-town mason?

Niv confirms, and Setael makes an obviously misleading post.

1856 was an obviously misleading post? :/ I thought she had a point. Masons voting each other seemed odd at the time.

Not really, because if masons arent confirmed town, you keep an eye on them as much as, if not MORE THAN anyone else.

I don’t think Skruffs conclusion in post 1860 is very realistic.

1860: Skruffs thought that if the second kill had been attempted on him, then it probably wasn't a vigilante. He is the most protown at the moment, and the only claimed power role, so that seems pretty realistic to me.

Lol have you read the second half of my analysis? Heck, have you read the last paragraph of it?!
Give this some thought for a sec. Now, assuming the Mafia have a Roleblocker, there is no reason for them to take a shot at Skruffs. They most probably shot Erg0 because of his Doc breadcrumb. Have you been an SK before? In my experience, you tend to need your kill, and will almost undoubtably use it somewhere where you dont expect protection to be an issue. Remember an SK needs to survive to the final 2 players. Why on earth would an SK risk wasting his kill by targetting someone who was almost certain to be protected, and not only that, someone who's investigations weren't even working?? I mean, even if an SK hadnt been paying attention to the game, he'd be aware that the only hope of killing the cop would be to hope that the Mafia thought that the SK would take a pop at the Cop, and hence shoot him themselves. A whole lot of WIFOM, that im not buying, when the far more reasonable conclusion is that the SK too spotted the breadcrumb and shot Erg0. Simple, no?

I really don't feel that you're backing up anything you say, Battle Mage. Not even slightly.

If that is the case, please keep asking me questions. I'm quite happy to clarify things all day if it helps you get a better grip on the game.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Kore: What do you make of BM's spin doctoring against Erg0 et al?

I think that only scum would be this misleading, and we should throw him overboard.

I found a great time-saver: don't bother to read a post two miles long when you spot the horrific attempts at logic and realize it was written by Battle Mage.

Oh the irony. You failed to rebutt my points, and eventually resorted to the same obscure behaviour which you accused me of in the first place. Im awestruck that you could genuinely think you have any sort of case here. And if i recall, you replaced Aimee?

Unvote, Vote: KJ

[Battle Mage]

Her debate with Battle Mage is not doing her any harm in my estimation, though.

Are you serious?

@Battle Mage: Can you quote the "doc" breadcrumb that Erg0 left that scum apparently picked up on?

Yeh ill go back and look for it in a sec.

[Battle Mage]

Behaviour which I

accused

you of? Meaning, you don't think you actually did it? Despite that I quoted you pretty much WORD FOR WORD?

Yeah, okay. I apologize. It was rude of me to stop a hopelessly tiring and futile quote war. I'll pick it up again. Not that we'll make any real progress, nor will I likely last long before giving up again, but you're way too provocative and I'm way too irritated, so here we go.

OMGUS? Ive never been called 'provocative' before over the internet. Are you trying to flirt with me? If so, try and work on your bedside manner.

No you clearly dont get it, because thats not what i said atall. I'm saying that as Simenon and Niv had ALREADY claimed, they could easily have confirmed Bookitty's masonhood, especially as they were voting for her!

My bad; you just wanted

one

of the masons to claim early for no good reason. Okay.

Good reason Number 1: We wouldnt waste everyone's fucking time gradually building up a wagon which will inevitable be shaken by the fact that it is on a mason, when in fact, a claim could have come much sooner.
Think before you speak pl0x.

Lol dont be so over-defensive. Guess what, as far as i'm aware, votes usually only count when you put them in bold. If it makes you happier, i'll go and check whether the Mod made an exemption for you, but regardless, from my perspective, and i suspect the perspective of the majority, your vote was not really legitimate. Have i drawn any false conclusions from that? Erm, nope. So before you accuse me of setting you up or something similar, you really ought to get some idea of context. Why we are even discussing this is beyond me...

Yes, you did draw a false conclusion, due to making a false assumption, as I said. Let me spell it out to you with a syllogism.
Premise 1: No vote that is underlined shall be counted.
Premise 2: Korejora's vote was underlined.
Conclusion: Korejora's vote was not counted.
This conclusion is perfectly

valid

, yes, but it's still false, since premise 1 rests on the false assumption that the mod wouldn't count it. The assumption would have been acceptable before there was a votecount, but since you assumed it after there was evidence that the assumption was false, you're just plain wrong.

According to THE RULES, votes need to be bold to be counted. Whether or not Patrick chose to make an exception on the premise that he suspected you actually intended to make a vote, is irrelevant. The fact was, your vote was not valid, and from your perspective at least, it ought not to have been counted. Hence i drew my conclusion from that fact.

We're discussing this because you appear to be either (1) an idiot misrepresenting the truth because you're too lazy to check the the easily available proof, or (2) scum lying about things to grossly distract the town.

See what i mean about your attitude? Have you ever come across the word 'tact' before? I suggest you look it up, because all im getting from you atm is extreme OMGUSsy vibes, which at best are clouding a townies judgement, and at worst, forcing a scum onto the defensive in order to save face.

Do you think that the fact that Simenon and Niv are voting for Bookitty means that 1 side must be anti-town?
Equally do you think that it is reasonable to suppose that Simenon would choose to run up a large Bandwagon on Bookitty, if he DIDNT WANT BOOKITTY LYNCHED, because it would make it more likely that he was an anti-town mason?

Why Simenon wagoned is a point of dispute right now. How should I know the answer to that?
I don't necessarily think that one side or the other are scum, but as far as I know, Setael believes Ether to be town, so to her, one of those three must be scum. There's nothing wrong with that.

Thats not the impression i got. I thought Setael was suggesting that the affiliation of 1 was directly linked to the affiliation of the others. It seems to be you who is twisting Setael's words here, in order to make her seem more able. As for the reason behind Simenon's votes, if you can make a conclusion one way, you can at least do him the justice of explaining yourself in the face of a logical blockade to the contrary. In laymens terms: "you said you agree with Setael, now when asked to back it up, you choose not to".

Duely noted.

Not really, because if masons arent confirmed town, you keep an eye on them as much as, if not MORE THAN anyone else.

It seemed to me at that time that they had reasons we didn't know about to believe their masonbuddy is really a scumbuddy. There is nothing misleading about that post in the context of when it happened.

Your entire paragraph about serial killers is completely irrelevant. But, you know, instead of wasting time telling me what I already know (which you would be able to find out because I listed the possibilities I had considered), you could just say that you were mistaken in talking about Skruffs' conclusion that there was a vig when you were actually referring to his assumption that the second kill was on him. I don't think anyone would hold it against you.

I recall both were in the same post. Dont be pedantic. I dont think there is a Vig, if anyone reads this...

BM

[Battle Mage]

Sim, I'd like your thoughts on both Zorg & BM. I can't find where you've really commented on that role once all game.

role?

fishing much?

[Battle Mage]

Okay. I've been thinking about this game in connection with a reread of some people I have questions for.

Ether, Setael2's case has to do with the fact that I treated Flare and Zorg differently than I treated Mastermind of Sin for what seemed to her to be similar cases (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's the main point of her argument). You've argued consistently that Mastermind of Sin was town, and you pushed a case on Flare and on Zorg (and in fact argued that they were scum together) at about the same time as the post Setael2 is using as the basis for her case against me. So, what about this case made you think I was the scum mason? What part of Setael's case did you agree with?

I'd also still like an answer about what you thought of Simenon's post right before my claim, and his unvoting and voting Mastermind of Sin later on, since I believe you said you thought MoS was town.

Battle Mage, I still await the doc tell you said you picked up. I didn't pick it up, and if you're referring to the level of anger at ZONEACE for directing the doc's play, I think I argued about that just about as much as Erg0, and I wasn't the doc.

Simenon, what changed your mind about this?

My experience with unconfirmed masons is that the only use of night talking is to give the mafia a more informed kill/night choice.

Read Erg0's posts in isolation. Posts 97-103, 105, 106, 107 ALL comment emotively on directing power roles, and in particular the Doctor. It wouldnt take a particularly bright mafioso to pick up on that and consider it NK worthy.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Good reason Number 1: We wouldnt waste everyone's fucking time gradually building up a wagon which will inevitable be shaken by the fact that it is on a mason, when in fact, a claim could have come much sooner.
Think before you speak pl0x.

Why would it inevitably be shaken by a mason claim? Wasn't it you who said we should "keep an eye on the masons as much, if not MORE THAN anyone else"? Masons are only confirmed as masons, not town.

Yes, but apparently some people did not want to rush into a lynch of a mason, when the odds of hitting scum elsewhere were perhaps better, and there was more to discuss. But dont take my word for it. Look at the wagon itself.

I also still don't see why the wagon was useless in terms of information. Even if don't know Bookitty's alignment, we've seen a lot of people's reactions to the wagon, which could be useful later.

Did i say it was useless? I said it wasted time, which in practical terms is perfectly true.

According to THE RULES, votes need to be bold to be counted. Whether or not Patrick chose to make an exception on the premise that he suspected you actually intended to make a vote, is irrelevant. The fact was, your vote was not valid, and from your perspective at least, it ought not to have been counted. Hence i drew my conclusion from that fact.

According to the rules, the votes have to be in the form "vote: person". I do not see the word "bold" there, and to me, the fact that the sample is bolded means you are supposed to use BBcode, so that your vote stands out enough for the mod to find it more easily. So from my perspective, it ought to have been counted. And the fact that Patrick counted my vote is VERY relevant, since that was your point:

(and by legitimate, i mean a vote that actually counts towards the votecount.)

Incorrect. I'd say that the rules specify that votes must be in a Bold format. Granted, it is open to interpretation, but because of this, my original point is still valid-the rules by no means confirmed that vote as acceptable, and it is well possible that there was intent behind that lack of using the proper method on

2

occassions.

See what i mean about your attitude? Have you ever come across the word 'tact' before?

The pot calls the kettle black!

Lol.

I suggest you look it up, because all im getting from you atm is extreme OMGUSsy vibes, which at best are clouding a townies judgement, and at worst, forcing a scum onto the defensive in order to save face.

"OMGUSsy vibes"? Battle Mage, I voted you, presented a case against you, and then you dodged around it and voted me back when I didn't stand for it. If anyone is pulling an OMGUS, it can only be you.

Yes OMGUSsy vibes. You tried to make a case on me, then i bit back, and you felt you had little choice but to keep fighting back. Thats what i mean by OMGUSsy vibes. When you attack someone simply because they are putting pressure on you. Its a defence mechanism. If you were town, you would ignore your dislike of me as an individual, and read your case on me again, and my responses. Then list what you have, and ill address it.

Will respond to the rest in a bit.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm Vanilla. Would be nice if you let me post my final suspicions, before you hammer me.

[Battle Mage]

I'm Vanilla. Would be nice if you let me post my final suspicions, before you hammer me.

what's stopping you from doing it in that post right there???????????????


that was stupid.

Because im busy revising for my f***ing maths exam. Ive notified anyone whom it may concern that they should sit tight. Ill be able to post properly on Thursday, when i have a day off after my exam.

Wish me luck!

BM

[Battle Mage]

Right thanks for waiting a little. Reading back, i'm less sure about KJ as scum. Still one to watch, but by comparison, Setael and Bookitty look worse now. Both spend ages attacking each other, then spontaneously turn on a townie at virtually the same time. I could easily see both as scum, but if not, i'm certain 1 of them is, and its more likely to be Setael, so thats who i'd reccommend as tomorrows lynch. Jdodge and Elmo feel like town. MoS gives me consistently scummy vibes, and anyone who has read the game should be suspicious of him. I wouldnt trust Zoneace very far either. Ether, K-Scope and Simenon feel town, and i maintain that Skruffs is protown. Niv has done some scummy things this game, and should be watched. Sir T's play has looked strongly protown, but with his recent bailing from the wagon on me, i'm no longer so sure.

So yeh, i hope that helps somewhat.

I'm not even sure quite why i have a BW on me atm, but again, someone can look back at the main pushers tomorrow.
If we arent deadlined, it'd be nice if Jdodge could outline his reasons for voting me. Or in fact anyone, so i can actually defend myself coherently.

Otherwise, good luck. Theres plenty of scumminess out there. Wake up, and lynch it!

BM

[Battle Mage]

oh and

Unvote

, while i wait for Jdodge.

[Battle Mage]

Wait, I don't understand BM's logic regarding his not being sure about me anymore. Becaused I bailed out? What does that mean?

On one hand, you accuse people driving your BW of being scum, and on the other, you say you are not sure about me because I unvoted? Wtf is this logic?

Lol obviously, some people on my wagon are scum, because i cant see such a bogus case being forced by solely protown players. Equally, i expect some scum now, seeing the wagon and almost inevitable lynch of me, will not join, or in Sir T's case, bail out in order to look good tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote: Sir T

[Battle Mage]

Ok. Good Luck fellow Mafia Member(s)!

[Battle Mage]

MoS played a really crappy game.

Yeah, and you played brilliantly right?
Quit flaming.

In fairness though, i do think MoS was damn lucky to survive as long as he did. Obviously im biased, but even after my death, some of his behaviour screamed 'SCUM'. Nonetheless, he pulled it off which was no mean feat given the level of competence of the town. Simenon played great from what i gather. I cant quite believe we won this, when after Day 1, not one of us was out of immediate danger of being lynched.
I really think the bussing between me and MoS worked a treat.

The real thing that irked me, when i spoke to Patrick at various points after my death was that MoS DIDNT USE THE BOOKIE!!!
Probably our best power, and it got wasted. 0.o

Anyway, excellent game overall!

BM

[Battle Mage]

The roleblocker is probably a more useful all round role, and in this game it meant the cop was disabled the minute he claimed. The bookie becomes more useful later on, when it becomes easier to guess the lynches, and it can mean the town is in lylo earlier than they expect it. The mafia could also bet on one of their number to be lynched, which meant that technically, no lynching on day 7 would have been a bad option for the town (because with 3 town v 2 mafia, the scum can bet on one of their own to be lynched and simply have them commit suicide for the win).

oh yeh i forgot about that. I dont know about the rest of you, but i never realised we could bet on OURSELVES to be lynched. That couldve made things alot easier...

BM

[Battle Mage]

im amazed ZONEACE managed to last the course of the game...

BM

[Battle Mage]

I have a distinct memory of SirT being useless in the days.

qft.

Also, i just realised, this is my 75th completed game on MS! Yay me!