Open 50: The New C9 - Abandoned!

[Justin Playfair]

Hi. I am reading now and will post as soon as I am done. Good to be here.

[Justin Playfair]

Hi, all.

As promised, the results of my reading. What will follow in subsequent posts is a lot of reading, and I apologize, but I wanted to do as thorough a job as possible. In the interest of not being lynched outright for annoying everyone I will start by posting just my top two suspects, but I have prepared similar studies on every player and will be happy to post them on request, just so you know I looked at everyone before I made my decisions. And I think these are the two longest, so subsequent ones will probably be less painful.

Anyway, here's some content. I present them in my order of suspicion from reading the thread to this point and I have included a list below in that order. One caveat. I do not include three players on the list: Timmers2001/Fonzie, AlyG and ManaSpryte, though I have written (pleasingly short) breakdowns of the few posts they have made. There simply isn't enough from any of them for me to form any confident opinion. And there are three further players on the list, LoudmouthLee, Aimee and White who I have included but do not have enough content on to be really confident in their placement.

That said, here is the list: 1. TylerJ 2. Shteven 3. Laptop Gun 4. Oman 5. Sammich
6. somestrangeflea 7. LoudmouthLee 8.Ooba 9. Aimee 10. White 11. Opposed Force 12. JordanA24 13. curiouskarmadog

[Justin Playfair]

First, TylerJ.

TylerJ votes quickly on Jordan and holds onto the idea that Jordan was too defensive for a bit. After a lot of content light posts starts looking in Oman’s direction, and never really looks away. TylerJ votes for Oman.

By the way, I feel I must state here that I find no evidence that TylerJ is a nutter.

I’m bothered by the way TylerJ goes after SomeStrangeFlea for not scumhunting. Why? Well because TylerJ’s sole contribution to scumhunting to this point was getting in a scuffle with Oman, in this period the easiest target to get into a scuffle with in the game. And TylerJ’s content to post ratio is easily the lowest in the game, and there’s been plenty of competition. Seriously, isolate TylerJ’s posts. Drops the look at SSF after making only the most obligatory feint. Soon TylerJ’s giving advice to Laptop Gun to stop tunneling on SomeStrangeFlea and…

if you want to find scum, you have to look at everyone.

TylerJ has glared at Oman for nearly the entire game. One time he blinked and when his eyes opened again SomeStrangeFlea was standing in front of him. TylerJ looked away as quickly as he could to find Oman.

Then comes post 265, where I find a lot not to like:

Hmm, OF, I will have to read your analysis a few times through, as it seems to be one run on sentence and hard to understand.

to LaptopGun, I guess you'll just have to find out if I am naturally forceful (ie. opinionated?) or not.

TylerJ- Goes along with voting Jordan with the tone in the early stages in the game. Casts suspicous on Oman for being to careless in bandwagons and sees him trying to throw attention off him. Gets a null tell on White's statement about "short post=townies" and says that if such discussion on things like this were to continue then people would become too focused and miss lynching scum. Counter-reacts to Oman accusing him of past actions such as stating "He's trying to get people to ignore him" Several inrevelant posts later he posts "We should wait until more evidence for or on Oman comes up." It seems like he really wants to push suspision on Oman or want people to make a strong case on him when the evidence arrives. Then he proclaims SSF as scum after evidence is given and after SSF makes a defense he says in that defense he scumhunted and takes back the statement of SSF being scum back and says he's just trying to be humurous. Vote:TylerJ Getting a strong scummy vibe from him.

I think Oman is suspicious, thats quite plain to me. Think of it what you will. When I posted the 'lets wait for more post' it was because I didn't think we had enough clear evidence on him. The reason why I voted for SSF was because of his lack of scumhuting. When he scumhunted he nullified my reason for voting. If he conjoured up a scum hunt to ward off my suspicion, then I reach a dilemma. My best guess provided by the actual evidence he posted was that he wasn't just trying to point fingers and through suspicion but truly was scum hunting. Yet, I am aware that I should still keep a close eye on him.

As far as me posting about trying to be humorous, it wasn't in regards to my thoughts about ssf.

And another thing. I attempt to actually contribute. If I make a Contentless post, it isn't because I want to stay hidden and wishy-washy. Sometimes when I do post something that I think has value, others don't think it does. These cases are purely accidental. Other times I will post contentless one liners because I either am trying to crack a joke or letting people know I am hear but can't find anything of note that I haven't already posted about.

I hope I explained myself clearly.

Also, here is something purely analytical. If I was really trying to push for people to vote for Oman, I would still have my vote on him. If you don't think that is true, that's your own specualtion and I can't argue with that.

Here are some things in particular:

TylerJ disparages Opposed Force’s analysis before commenting on the section that applies to him. Says he’ll have to read it a few times to understandit, because of it’s poor construction. Guess he’d already read the section about him that few times. And since TylerJ never, not unto this day, commented on anything else in Opposed Force’s analysis, either he got seriously behind on his reading or it was just a way to minimize the valid points Opposed Force had raised.

TylerJ makes a lot of his post about his little bout of pitty-pat with SomeStrangeFlea, but the episode was so minor, TylerJ has tried to point so much attention to it as a resolved event, and even advised LapTop Gunner to stop tunneling on SomeStrangeFlea that the whole episode looks more suspicious as distancing from SSF or distracting from his tunneling on Oman than anything else.

TylerJ, by posting that “If I make a Contentless post, it isn't because I want to stay hidden and wishy-washy.” suggests that he understands there might be a case made for him seeming unsure, and yet when Oman accused him of this TylerJ demanded evidence and then accused Oman of being scum for not providing it. Actually, in TylerJ’s defense, I don’t see that much evidence of him being wishy-washy or unsure. Just of him posting lots and lots of stuff, none of it seeming to hunt scum except for sometimes Oman.

And worst of all this, which is a defense that makes TylerJ look more guilty. Sorry to repeat the quote but it deserves to stand out:

Also, here is something purely analytical. If I was really trying to push for people to vote for Oman, I would still have my vote on him. If you don't think that is true, that's your own specualtion and I can't argue with that.

TylerJ, if you have only cast serious suspicion on one player and continue to insist you are suspicious of him, to the exclusion of all else, who are we going to believe, you or our lying eyes?

Oh, plus that one other thing. Little thing, really. When TylerJ posted this he was still voting for Oman. He FOS’ed SomeStrangeFlea for that little two step he did with him.

I mean the vote count was right there on the same page. And there was never a post TylerJ made where he unvoted Oman or voted SSF. Maybe that’s just a great big mistake, but normally people who are much interested in scumhunting know where their vote is. What moves this out of the just an innocent mistake range for me is that Opposed Force directly asks TylerJ to tell him in what post TylerJ took his vote off Oman, and TylerJ never responds. Now the only real defenses possible here are that:
a. TylerJ doesn't really read the thread, and only someone who really suspiciously doesn't care about hunting scum wouldn't even care enough to read.
b. TylerJ realized at the point OF asked the question that he hadn't taken his vote off Oman and decided to brazen his way through.
c. TylerJ knew all along where his vote was and just posted what he did because he thought he could bluff his way through.

If there's a D that excuses the original misstatement, the refusal to answer OF's direct question on the subject, TylerJ bringing up the subject of the vote yet again in a post we'll see later, that in the rereads TylerJ promised to do he never discovered this mistake, and his not even mentioning it as an OMG when he finally did move his vote to Loudmouth Lee much later, I'd be glad to hear it.

What follows are a lot of posts with almost no content at all. TylerJ joins in on the discussion of Sammich in only the most cursory fashion, complains about the lack of content, mildly defends against a mild attack by Jordan, but hasn’t found time at this slow pace to reread the thread. When he’s finally asked, in response to one of his comments on the lack of scumhunting, who he finds most suspicious, TylerJ promises to do a reread. Can anyone guess who he finds most suspicious? Here’s post 407:

Uhhh, why I took my vote off of Oman is unclear to me.

At the beginning he made a scummy bandwagon and seemed to care less about it. Also, he was really hysterical on pg 7 about people metaing. I think it is because he is scum in those games to, so if he turns up scum, he doesn't want others to see that and then vote him here. There are other reasons to, but I just got done with a reread and my brain is mush.

Don’t worry, TylerJ, you hadn’t taken your vote off Oman at all. By the way, much as in responding to the other parts of OF’s analysis, TylerJ never got around to telling us those other reasons.

There’s not much after this. A little more sparring with Oman, a bit of agreeing with Jordan, a more or less reset vote on LoudMouthLee.

So a lot of empty posts. Some are brotherly advice, some are comments on others not doing what he isn’t doing, some are just adorably cute. But the only person TylerJ has thrown a real punch at is Oman, and he even tried to disavow that when it was called in question by Opposed Force (tried so hard that he told Opposed Force he wasn’t voting for Oman when he was and never responded to OF when OF asked him in what post he took the vote off), so the sum total of TylerJ has been a very large number of words, a terribly scummy response to the one time someone came seriously sniffing, and no help to town.

Tyler, as far as I’m concerned you seem the dirtiest person here. I think if you can’t explain that post to Opposed Force, your almost absolute lack of scum hunting, your strange interchange with SSF where you dropped your “suspicions” of him after he made a “scumhunting” post which consisted of purely defensive responses, and your refusal to respond to OF when he asked in what post you took your vote off Oman, you’re getting my vote.

[Justin Playfair]

And now Shteven:

Early on this gives me something to wonder about. It’s from post 31:

As far as vigging goes, you may have a significantly higher chance to hit town, but hitting mafia is worth more. I'm not saying I'd recommend night one kills, but saying that you're more likely to hit town than mafia isn't the whole story.

What is the whole story, Shteven? Because I’m hoping it’s more than “hitting mafia is worth more”. Why? Because the logical extension of that would be that random lynching wouldn’t be completely bad either, because if you happened to lynch scum that would be worth more too. If you can explain your thinking here more completely I would be grateful. It wasn’t your tone that worried me in this post. It was your logic.

Shteven does a lot of “NotHunting”. Conciliatory, noncommittal, posting words that leave the thread in the same place it started. It makes it seem like he’s contributing, but there’s little of value to be gained. Do it sometimes and that’s fine. Do it as much as Shteven’s doing it and it makes me think you’re trying to show you’re in the game and active but don’t want to put yourself on the line. Post 33 is a good example of this:

I don't believe I've ever played with LML before (He's usually modding my games) but I suppose just from knowing him this kind of get-started-sprinting makes a lot of sense for him. I don't think it's much of a tell - in either direction.

So, maybe LML’s likely to be aggressive right as the game starts, and Shteven’s never played a game with him, but LML has modded games Shteven’s been in, and maybe it’s not so suspicious but who really knows. Have that argument with yourself Shteven. Then post your conclusions, and support them with the reasoning that got you there. Very little in life lies at precisely the 50 yard line.

More of the same in post 60, including a bit of defensive self-revelation about being defensive. Won’t post it all, but I’ll post the part that bothers me most (in response to an attack on Shteven’s tone by Aimee). You’ll see why Shteven’s meta-game defense here bothers me as we continue:

As far as being overdefensive, I'll go on the record right now as a very defensive player. If someone says something about me, I believe it merits a response. . I don't expect anyone to read a 100+ page and still growing game, but if you want to see my play style, I was just lynched in mafia 64 and was a (now) proven townie who defended himself constantly. Right from day one I got into extensive arguments with Glork.

Fortunately for those who don't want to read 100+ pages, White, LML, and manaspryte were all in that game so just ask them.

Post 65 we get a safe vote on Oman for bandwagoning. But then a lot more pretty empty words. Shteven critiques the Jordan wagon, not for merit but because it’s at five and…

The confidence you need to join a wagon already past halfway is a bit too steep for at this point.

Confidence in what? Jordan’s guilt? That the bandwagon might go to lynch with your vote on it? Shteven seems to be voting Oman with cause, not just for some faint hope at putting pressure on him. And then Shteven comments again on the number of votes on each. Why would it even matter at this point? Five votes away, four votes away, neither were dangerously close to being lynched.

Two more nearly completely contentless chatty posts follow, and then this one, which just flat out bothers me. First there is a very long recapping of the vote history. One might think studying the thread so closely would have given Shteven some insights, but he follows the recap with this:

Commentary: The Jordan wagon, based on LML's claim that jordan's post about the SK revealed that jordan is the SK, has stalled. People haven't left it yet and may still succeed, but later votes have tended towards Oman with some other scattered targets. It may be too early to successfully lynch, or perhaps he's hidden well enough. He's also reflexively voted LML.

Oman's case is based on his admitted band wagoning. I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice. I will consider this, I'm not moving my vote just yet, but also wanted to point out this post:

Hmmm…why would Jordan be the better choice? Oh, maybe it’s this, from later in the same post:

I'm a bit curious what LML is trying to pull off here. He's already started the largest bandwagon so far, getting five votes for attacking one post (the response vote may also have helped fuel the wagon). He's now trying to start a brand new wagon? Granted wagons shift frequently at the start of the game, but it seems like LML may be trying to throw out anything that will stick at this point. What have I done that you think I deserve more suspicion than Jordan, who you've already claimed is the SK?

I'm aware that I may be playing into Aimee's concerns here, but I think it would be doing the town a disservice to be silent.

Now to me this seems to be Shteven saying that Jordan (read anyone) would be a better choice than Shteven. And although Shteven actually comes up with a valid reason for being suspicious of LML he is instead suggesting that maybe it would have been a better idea for him to join “the largest bandwagon so far”, the one that LML started on Jordan. I also just hate that last line. Shteven later makes use of Oman making a silly claim as to how he doesn’t care if he dies if it helps the town, but there’s not a penny’s weight of difference between that and what Shteven does at the end of this post. Very noble. If there’s one thing that consistently makes me suspicious of someone it is hypocrisy.

Then here comes post 143:

Metagame defenses make me nervous, but I can't help realizing they're useful. People do play differently; but I'm really not interested in reading 2-3 games from player's past just to figure out how to play this game.

I do my best to avoid being scummy each game and I think you should too. Other than a few people saying I'm too defensive I think I do a pretty good job, we'll see

Early wagons at -2 are pressure. early wagons at -1 are a bad idea. You don't know who would be willing to hammer.

I’m not even going to comment on that well-discussed middle sentence, but the first part of this post seems a little odd considering the meta-defense Shteven used in post 60. Shteven, do meta-defenses make you nervous only when someone other than you are using them? Like claims of noble sacrifice on behalf of the town?

And post 145:

Oy...I forgot to include the whole point. Wagoning for pressure is fine, I imagine that was LML's main point in attacking jordan. But if you outright tell the person it's just pressure, then there is no pressure. And that's just distracting. It's a good time to be voting Oman...

Okay, let’s trace Shteven’s logic of wagons. A wagon that would still have been three votes away from lynch if he added his vote was too steep for him. A wagon at -2 seems like pressure. And if you tell the person it’s just pressure there isn’t any pressure. And there’s more about this later. Hey, I paid off when I promised there was more about meta-gaming, right?

And I’m glad it was a good time for voting Oman, since you never shared your thoughts on why it might be a good idea to switch your vote to Jordan.

Post 173 mildly defends Ooba. Post 177 gives a little advice to Sammich and Ooba, and includes some defense about the middle section of his post 143. Then comes post 185, in which Shteven criticizes Oman for making a content free post. Won’t quote this post here but Shteven once again uses a meta-argument and then comes dangerously close to losing an argument with himself about what kind of player is most likely to be nightkilled.

Shteven votes Sammich for okay reasons but in a later post makes sure Sammich doesn’t think it’s personal and points out Sammich doesn’t have anything to worry about because it’s only one vote. Shteven’s post 201 looks good though, politely but firmly pushing Sammich to give him information. Shteven’s post 230, asking some questions of LML, is okay too(I see this: “Are you happy with the results of Jordan's wagon or do we need to take it all the way to lynch?” as a question asked to LML which may well have been more to gain information about LML than to continue to try to push that wagon). Post 250 is fine. In Post 259 Shteven chides Sammich for being content free. Shteven takes his vote off Sammich, saying it has done it’s job and in Post 259 Shteven announces that his reading of LaptopGun and SomeStrangeFlea resulted in nothing. No explanation, but I guess it was good to get the update.

Then Sammich posts his overview, which includes Shteven seeming like the doctor (which just makes sense which is non in so, so many ways) and Shteven makes this horrible post in response (286):

3) Claiming I'm a doctor is where you went wrong. There's no reason for a town player to do this. It's either a horrible gaffe, or you're trying to signal who needs to be killed. I certainly hope it's not an innocent mistake, because this is day 1 and this evidence will be enough for my vote.

Vote: Sammich

Votes have been coming in pretty fast, so while I have a chance, I'd like to conduct a poll, for everyone: Should we delay a lynch if sammich gets to -1 or -2, or is this enough day 1 posting? My last game went into 40+ pages on day 1 and that was a bit...headache inducing

I agree with CuriousKarmaDog about how opportunistic this post looks but will add a point CKD didn’t. Shteven, who lectured Oman about telling someone the bandwagon placed on them is just for pressure, now proposes “a poll” on the same subject. Then he continues by suggesting that maybe it’s time to lynch Sammich because there’s been enough day one posting. See, told you there would be more on Shteven’s theories of bandwagoning. Plus, and I really can’t help but say this, those votes you cast to lynch someone…they’re a poll. When someone gets enough votes in this “poll” they get lynched. This is such a bad bit from Shteven on just every level that I’m surprised it didn’t get him a far more substantial poll of his own.

Shteven’s defense in 297 is deflecting in that it skirts completely the issue of how opportunistic Shteven was being. After a defense in 305 against other things, Shteven continues to push for a Sammich lynch in 306, including this bit of distancing just to be safe.

Seriously, this lack of response doesn't make him that much more likely to be mafia. And I am rather afraid we'll be mislynching town...he's just not giving me much to work with, to let him off the hook.

Shteven continues to push on Sammich, even going so far in post 321 to call out to lurkers who haven’t posted since Sammich “made his post”. CuriousKarmaDog calls him for deflection.

Called on it Shteven says it was to spur discussion and to get away from tunneling on Sammich. Which would be fine, except the call was linked to Sammich. How? Like this:

Sammich's post was last tuesday 3:46 forum time. Since then (four days) the following players have not posted ONCE:

This isn’t a post to get people to stop talking about Sammich. This is a post to point people who might not have read the Sammich post to it. If it isn’t, why does this all immediately follow?

Shteven criticizes the continued discussion of Sammich and then posts, almost immediately, that he still wants to lynch Sammich. Shteven then uses Sammich doing a “bump” to go after Sammich again. Shteven doesn’t talk about anything other than Sammich until he finally gets tired of CuriousKarmaDog going after him over his scummy post 286.

In post 360 Shteven misquotes an old post of CuriousKarmaDog in order to try to cast suspicion on him. OMGUS for absolutely sure, but also another attempt at a misdirect. Shteven then posts a whole list of old posts that need to be looked at again, just to prove he wasn’t looking back trying to find some dirt to throw at CKD, ending it, of course, with Sammich. When CKD pins Shteven on the misquote (the accusation based on this got its own post, not just part of a list) Shteven apologizes and even makes a list of suspects that doesn’t include CKD, which has the very safe to be suspicious of Sammich and Oman at the top.

Shteven changes his vote to Oman after Oman suggests lynching a lurker.

I don’t like much of what I’ve seen from Shteven so far. Is being hypocritically inconsistent in his own favor on the subjects of meta-gaming and bandwagons and being sanctimonious about how the town comes first worth a vote? Probably not. Is the low content and refusal to commit on almost anything worth a vote? Probably not. Is the no explanation reason, raised under pressure and abandoned right after, for reconsidering his position on voting Jordan worth a vote? Taking a clumsy pot shot at CuriousKarmaDog and then making an even clumsier attempt to cover it with a list of similar “overlooked” posts which he never bothered to follow up on or build into a case? Probably not. But put it all together and combine it with that horrible post 286 and…yeah, I’m getting real close.

[Justin Playfair]

TylerJ,

What I said, specifically, is that you have engaged in no real scum hunting at any point in this game. You followed Oman, a safe target, and looked nowhere else.

I said that your exchange with somestrangeflea was more remarkable for the absolute lack of content you provided (four posts…five posts if you include the one where you corrected sumhunting to scumhunting). The posts included the following elements:

@ssf: At least his last post was scumhunting, you aren't scumhunting. COnsequently, it is scummy.

ssf=scum

why don't you at least scum hunt. And for once, defend instead of using equals signs all the time.

and you you have sumhunted how many times?

Insert here the correction of sum to scum.

And then, after somestrangeflea makes a response in which the extent of his scumhunting was to respond defensively to things Laptop Gun had posted about him, with the implication that just maybe that made LTG scummy, you wrap up your case with:

Thmx. You scumhunted. That is what I wanted. As far as the ssf=scum, I was just trying to be humorous. I am suspicious of you because you weren't scumhunting until I mentioned it. I still am.

That looks pretty pro forma to me. Now maybe you didn’t really read somestrangeflea’s post, either. I don’t know. But it was an awfully curious little baby fight of an exchange, and it certainly doesn’t look sincere compared to your behavior toward Oman. You pointing out to LTG afterward that he shouldn’t tunnel on SSF makes it more so. That’s what I’m talking about. I mean, you hounded Oman mercilessly for not providing evidence for something you now suggest was true.

Hmmm…

I totally forgot about the post! And OF's post was confusing because he only a subject noun once. Get your head out of the clouds and stop conjuring up things that aren't true. I'll contribute a defense from that post in a bit.

Well, you did say you would have to read Opposed Force’s post a few times to understand it because of the way it was written. You did then defend yourself against what Opposed Force had written about you. You have never commented on any other section of it. So either you never read the rest of Opposed Force’s post the few times it was going to take you to comment on it, or you never intended to comment on the other parts at all and this was just a way to diminish his argument by maligning the style in which it was written.

One answer suggests a scummy defense tactic. The other contributes to my suspicion that you are in not interested in scum hunting. So what precisely about this did I conjure up?

Now, at the point Oman first suggested you were being wishy-washy you had made 18 posts. Of these 6 had no game content whatsoever, and this is giving you credit for posts like:

that is what I thought.

your early game post about the likelihood of a vig hitting the right target and what you claimed was your random phase vote on Jordan. Of the remainder 8 involved Oman, and although I won’t repost them all unless you persist, several of them were also lacking in useful content. Here is the post not covered in the above:

True, but the guilty are usually more defensive than others.

About Jordan, in response to Sammich saying that being defensive was not a scum tell.

Now there is some limited content on other matters in those eight posts involving Oman. Here’s some:

Whites post about short post=/=townie is, in my opinion is a nulltell, if we continue to go off on such a tangent, we might become to focused and miss scum. Not saying that white isn't scum either, I wouldn't know.

Sammich is kind of suspicious too with voting for no reason. Even more so by the fact that he still hasn't given one.

This one, by the way, is interesting itself. Because you did this in the same post where you defended yourself against Jordan for not having commented on something Sammich had done.

Tyler's post afterwards also unsettled me, he could have pressed Sammich to explain his suspicions instead of making a contentless post about it.

This looks even less like one of the tiny bits of non-Oman scumhunting you’ve done and even more like just more defensive posting. Oh, and by the way, though I agree with Jordan that it was a pretty content free post, I counted it as one of your posts with content, because it at least in some way related to what was going on in the game. Here it is:

I agree Jordan, i'm not seeing the reason behind ooba.

So no, Oman didn’t make the case. But yes, even at that time you were sorely lacking in content, and had almost zero content not related to Oman.

As for this:

I made a mistake. I thought I took it off! Your little pathetic logic has your head in the clouds and you can't see that. I didn't see OF's post, and your craplogic about that doesn't hold either. I do pay attention to the game and I do read throughly, The problem is I missed that part. I'll keep it at that, because if I continue, I might say something else I will regret.

All right. You forgot that your vote was still on Oman, the only person you had hunted in the game. You responded to Opposed Force by pointing out that your vote would still be on Oman if you were interested in seeing him lynched. You missed the post where Opposed Force asked you in what post you took your vote off Oman. And you do read thoroughly. You missed that part.

Could you point out precisely where my “craplogic” doesn’t hold? I guess my head is so far into the clouds that I’m still not seeing it.

[Justin Playfair]

Shteven, thank you for answering my post. I’m sorry about the length, and I understand some things may have confused you because of that. So permit me to clarify.

First, though, in the case of your first point. No, I am not stretching. Because when you say “it isn’t the whole story” you are in fact saying that somehow the vig killing a random townsperson on night 0 with no information isn’t just a terrible move. Now please explain how this would be different than the entire town randomly determining a lynch before any discussion on day one. In saying that the town would have more information after discussion you don’t prove that this is different. The vig would also have more information then. Which is why your point doesn’t ring true at all. If you wouldn’t approve a die enforced random lynch before discussion you also can’t approve of the vig killing with absolutely no information. If you want to try explaining this again, please do.

Let’s go on to the point about meta-gaming. And I’ll put them back to back here, to avoid confusion. This is you, Shteven, in post 60, responding to what was only a very small amount of pressure:

As far as being overdefensive, I'll go on the record right now as a very defensive player. If someone says something about me, I believe it merits a response. . I don't expect anyone to read a 100+ page and still growing game, but if you want to see my play style, I was just lynched in mafia 64 and was a (now) proven townie who defended himself constantly. Right from day one I got into extensive arguments with Glork.

Fortunately for those who don't want to read 100+ pages, White, LML, and manaspryte were all in that game so just ask them.

This is you, Shteven, in post 143:

Metagame defenses make me nervous, but I can't help realizing they're useful. People do play differently; but I'm really not interested in reading 2-3 games from player's past just to figure out how to play this game.

Now you also use meta a couple of other times, but this is the clearest…let’s say contrast. And so I ask you again, Shteven, are you only nervous about meta-game defenses when someone else is using them?

All right. Let’s move on to bandwagoning.

You say that Jordan’s wagon was too steep for you. Your vote would have put him at L-2

When asked about your theory on bandwagons you say:

Early wagons at -2 are pressure.

Now this is a small contradiction, but I don’t think much of it either. If not for the much more huge contradiction I detail in what follows I wouldn’t have even posted it.

But this:

But if you outright tell the person it's just pressure, then there is no pressure. And that's just distracting.

Which you posted to Oman, followed by this:

I'd like to conduct a poll, for everyone: Should we delay a lynch if sammich gets to -1 or -2,

Is just insane. Now this post has much bigger things wrong with it than just this, but you’re proposing that the whole town tell Sammich that the bandwagon on him is just for pressure. Now you can play whatever games you like with this, say it wasn’t about pressure, it was about delaying for discussion, but the end result is even more damaging. No one who is told they are getting voted on just to put pressure on them really believes that. But any player assured by a poll of everyone in town that there should be a delay in lynching them if they get to -1 or -2 knows that there isn’t a player in town who will want the attention putting that last vote on them will get them. The people who are already convinced to that level that they’re guilty are already voting for them.

You were also confused about the Jordan pressure comment I made. Well the only time you brought up that:

Oman's case is based on his admitted band wagoning. I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice.

was in the very same post where you said this:

What have I done that you think I deserve more suspicion than Jordan, who you've already claimed is the SK?

Are you still having a hard time seeing why this is scummy? And are you still having a hard time understanding why you never bringing up anything more about it after the pressure you were under from LML was gone seems a tad suspicious?

By the way, my not commenting on this, which you described as a scummy tactic on my part, was because it had already been discussed. Which I said.

I do my best to avoid being scummy each game and I think you should too. Other than a few people saying I'm too defensive I think I do a pretty good job, we'll see

Now about Sammich, and I will make it very clear. When you tell him it’s only one vote. When you tell him it’s not personal. Quotes like this:

Seriously, this lack of response doesn't make him that much more likely to be mafia. And I am rather afraid we'll be mislynching town...he's just not giving me much to work with, to let him off the hook.

And certainly your “poll” might be interpreted as pushing a Sammich lynch while at the same time you were disowning it. Oh, and you were awfully sweet about your response on your post calling for more comments from those who hadn’t posted. So let’s quote that in context, okay?

I also find it especially odd that Sammich's post seems to have stopped all other debate. Doesn't anyone else have something to say?

Sammich's post was last tuesday 3:46 forum time. Since then (four days) the following players have not posted ONCE:

Now you say you were inviting them to post on Sammich. But in that first line you pretty clearly say “Sammich's post seems to have stopped all other debate.”. So if you weren't interested in talking about Jordan, because you were suspicious of Sammich, what would that other discussion have been?

And then you immediately post this:

I'm trying to avoid having tunnel vision and letting other players slide by. You're welcome to keep asking sammich repeatedly why he thinks I'm a power role (seriously I have no idea what a doctor tell would even look like) but when you get another "=\", I'm not going to call that productive dialog

So this argues that, in fact, you were trying to pose as though you were interested in going other places. Glad you’ve already answered my first post like this:

Allow me to answer your above question: I continued to post about Sammich because I felt Sammich was scummy and wanted to lynch him. Would you propose I talk about Jordan in order to get Sammich lynched instead?

Okay, you said that was a rhetorical question when you asked it. So why were you saying then that you wanted "other discussion" and that you wanted to avoid "tunneling" when (and thanks for confirming in your post above) you were tunneling on Sammich?

Wouldn’t you have wanted other players to keep talking about him, too?

Oh that’s right, you did. You said that in your first response to me, too:

My goal was not to get people to stop talking about Sammich. My goal was to get the same 3 people to stop talking about Sammich, and get a wider range of opinions.

And further:

Certainly, they're welcome to talk about any player, but Sammich held my main interest at the time, and yes, I'd like to hear more people talk about him.

Really, except for the sneaky little bit pointing out where Sammich's post was, those posts above don't appear to be saying that at all. But yes, I knew it was what you were doing, and thank you for confirming it. Makes those posts just awful curious, though.

There are a couple other bits we can go back to in your defense, but this has probably gone on long enough. I think I’ve put things close enough together now that you can see them. Thank you for any responses.

[Justin Playfair]

Thank you, TylerJ. You've given me some things to consider as I read again.

[Justin Playfair]

Unless I am terribly mistaken I replaced Skitzer.

[Justin Playfair]

Shteven,

No rush, but when you get a chance I would appreciate a response to my last post to you.

[Justin Playfair]

Shteven,

I hate to keep banging away at this, but your response to this is clearly untrue. In your last post to me you say this:

I really thought this was clear. I have not used meta "a couple of other times"...the only time I've mentioned one is in conjunction with my stance on them. That they are a necessary evil. Other people are allowed to use them just as much as I do; which isn't often, but it happens.

Which does not answer the question I was asking, but deflects from it. Once again, here are the two posts which are troubling me:

As far as being overdefensive, I'll go on the record right now as a very defensive player. If someone says something about me, I believe it merits a response. The above line by Aimee was incorrect, and I'm fixing it. I don't expect anyone to read a 100+ page and still growing game, but if you want to see my play style, I was just lynched in mafia 64 and was a (now) proven townie who defended himself constantly. Right from day one I got into extensive arguments with Glork.

Fortunately for those who don't want to read 100+ pages, White, LML, and manaspryte were all in that game so just ask them.

This is clearly you using a meta-defense, for yourself, with no nervousness about it. You even call on others to support your meta-defense.

Then:

Metagame defenses make me nervous, but I can't help realizing they're useful. People do play differently; but I'm really not interested in reading 2-3 games from player's past just to figure out how to play this game.

Now it is being used on behalf of another player and it makes you nervous. This is a clear contradiction. Now you have danced around this twice, even to the point, in the quote above, to claim that:

the only time I've mentioned one is in conjunction with my stance on them.

This isn’t just clearly not true, but it was clearly not true based only on the direct quotes I used in the above post. It is hard for me to even imagine another interpretation of this than that you are continuing to engage in defense by deflection, but if you can provide another reason for this most curious assertion on your part I would be delighted to hear it.

But in addition to this, you do use meta again, though as I said before in more benign circumstances than the posts above, where you are very clearly first using a meta-game defense on your own behalf and then trying to minimize it when it was used in the case of Oman.

There are other things which bother me in your last post but let’s start simply, with just this point. You used a meta defense the first time you came under pressure, even going so far as to invite other players to meta-confirm what you claimed. You then said meta-defenses made you nervous when they were being used to defend Oman. Can you please explain your immediate use of a meta-defense in your own case in light of your distrust of a meta-defense in Oman’s?

[Justin Playfair]

Shteven, it was a meta-defense under the most gentle of pressure. You used it in your defense.

You then said it made you nervous when it was used in defense of Oman. I never said your use of a meta-defense came out of "nowhere". I said it seemed in contradiction to your later distrust of meta defenses when used on behalf of another player.

You have not yet addressed this inconsistency. You have now jumped through a number of hoops to avoid doing so.

[Justin Playfair]

All right. Last try. If another player used a meta-defense about himself and then claimed it made him nervous when it was applied to someone else, what would it make you think of that player?

Now, onto this:

Oman's case is based on his admitted band wagoning. I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice.

What have I done that you think I deserve more suspicion than Jordan, who you've already claimed is the SK?

These two quotes are from the same post.

You were under pressure from LML.

You ask what you had done to deserve more suspicion than Jordan.

You post that Jordan may have been the better choice to bandwagon.

Never again do you mention why Jordan would have been the better choice. Never do you return to this thought at all.

Why, at the moment you came under pressure from LML, did you reconsider whether Jordan, LML's other main suspect, may have been a better choice to bandwagon?

Why did you no longer consider this once LML, and his pressure, were absent?

Saying these were two separate thoughts is not an answer to this, because you are asking us to accept the amazing coincidence that at the same moment you came under increased pressure from LML you happened, as a completely unrelated notion, to think that LML's other main suspect, Jordan, might have been a better target than Oman to bandwagon.

You are then asking us to believe that, also coincidentally, once LML's pressure was gone you decided that Jordan wasn't. And that neither when you began to consider that Jordan might have been a better bandwagon, or when you no longer were, you bothered to provide any reasoning behind your thoughts.

Give your explanation, however, please expand on why you never looked back at Jordan again.

Thank you for any answers provided.

[Justin Playfair]

Okay, Shteven, I’m trying to be as cautious with this as I can be, but this response to Laptop Gun seems almost beyond reason:

When other players use meta defenses I tend to ignore them and the attack made. I will generally say something about not wanting to really read 40 pages and just judge them on the current game. This has lead to me voting Albert B. Rampage/TCS in some other games. Not because they claimed a meta-defense, but because they acted scummy and I didn't feel like verifying it was a universal behavior for them.

Here we go. If…

When other players use meta defenses I tend to ignore them and the attack made.

…then you may as well be accepting the meta-defense, because you have chosen to ignore the initial case made because a meta-defense was raised against it. Functionally, for all intents and purposes within the game you are playing, the meta-defense has worked, though you never bothered to verify it, because you then ignore “the attack made”.

And then you use meta-evidence to continue:

This has lead to me voting Albert B. Rampage/TCS in some other games.

So not only, after multiple posts, have you not addressed the basic, seemingly hypocritical contradiction posed by your using a meta-defense on your own behalf and proclaiming they make you nervous when used by another, but you have condensed this behavior by including both in the same post.

In addition, you have not answered this very simple question. You have done everything in your power to avoid answering it, to misdirect attention away from it. But you have not answered it.

In your 8th post, post number 126 in thread, you write:

Oman's case is based on his admitted band wagoning. I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice.

You do this while you are under pressure. You provide no reason for this possible change of heart on your part. The pressure goes away and you never return to this statement, either to discount it or to give reasons for it. This is the point of your behavior in this post I would like you to address.

Your behavior in doing this seems opportunistic and purely defensive. In suggesting that Jordan might have been a better choice you seem to have been willing to push suspicion on Jordan for no other reason than to displace it from yourself. By offering no further reasoning either within this post or later your behavior seems to confirm this interpretation. Please address this at this time. To do so you must both address why you believed Jordan may have been a better choice, why you never returned to this thought when you were no longer under pressure, and, now, how your belief, as expressed in post 518…

I was curious about the other camp, which had picked up 5 people's votes (not all at the same time, though) so there were certainly several townies on it at some point.

…has managed to displace the position you have already defended in your post 508 in answer to me:

I felt that -3 was plenty of pressure for Jordan. Other players were applying the pressure; as I wasn't convinced of his guilt, I saw no reason to add pressure. If I thought he was scum, I would have been glad to move the wagon to -2...But I'm not going to join a wagon I don't believe in no matter how many votes it does or doesn't have.

These quotes are from two posts you made that were 10 posts apart. They outline contradictory positions on this issue. If one explanation above is uniquely meant to signify your thinking when you first declined to join the Jordan bandwagon and the other is meant to demonstrate your thinking only when, under pressure, you raised suspicion of Jordan, then the timing is once more damningly convenient. Please clarify.

Your answers to questions raised about your play throughout this game have been contradictory and evasive. Until such time as you are willing to actually address the points I have raised instead of doing all within your power to distract from them I am going to

Vote: Shteven

When you have answered these concerns I will go on to your contradictory claims about your behavior in regard to Sammich.

[Justin Playfair]

All right. As I said when I replaced I have these worked up for everyone. I'll post the next three from my original list, in order of suspicion. More on request or logically as we continue.

Shteven, the reason I have stayed with you as long as I have is that I believe you are giving me deliberately evasive answers. I began with TylerJ, and when he gave me answers which although not entirely satisfactory to me seemed to be on point and direct innocent interpretations of his actions I move on. I would and will do the same for you when I believe we have reached that point.

On the point of your first using a meta defense on your own behalf, as a shield against seeming defensive and then expressing nervousness about them when they were used on behalf of Oman I should think the implication is obvious. When you felt you needed a meta case to pull yourself out from under suspicion you had no scruples about using one. When one was being used on behalf of Oman you either forgot your previous use of meta on your own behalf and expressed a more general true feeling you had or specifically attacked the method of defense because you were less interested in the truth than in pressing suspicion on Oman.

Either way there are clear scummy implications. Saying whatever you need to at the moment is scummy. Instead of having a clear and consistent town reading of events you end up dissembling in order to get what you need at the moment.

This is also why I have pressed you on your fleeting suspicion of Jordan coinciding so neatly with the moment in time you felt under pressure from LML. Once again, I would also like to explore your behavior regarding Sammich in more depth, but first I will give you the following three, numbers four through six from my original list.

[Justin Playfair]

LaptopGun

Let’s start with 64, LapTop Gunner’s first post with content. In some ways it’s probably his best post but it starts one of the most maddening and suspicious trends in his posting. Here:

I am gonna way in on the 2 major bandwagons we seem to be arranging. It seems to me one of the two was either started or stoked in order to protect a mafia who had come under scrutiny.

Okay, this post starts a trend of Laptop Gun believing that almost everything that happens was possibly or likely started by scum. After awhile a suspicious fellow might start thinking that LtG keeps saying things are driven by mafia because LtG’s not driving any of them and that means he must not be mafia. What hurts most is that LaptopGun never takes the next step, the only one that could begin to help the town, and identify who he thinks these scum are.

More examples: Post 106 where Laptop Gun observes the game is moving very fast and asks “is (are) player(s) manipulating things?” This only becomes useful if you then provide a notion of who you think the player(s) are. Post 253 where “I also think at least one of the bandwagons was fanned by a mafia member.” Which bandwagon and who? Post 319 where “I will maintain that I feel the mafia have been fanning the bandwagons... or perhaps starting new ones to divert attention from their cohorts. In this game the mafia have been active (more active than in my previous experience). Or that's my theory...” And this, the worst of the bunch: “Ok. I think one of the bandwagons we dealt with was either started by or faned by the mafia, perhaps in an attempt to protect one of their own from getting lynched.”

And it’s like this on almost every front. Laptop Gun points suspicion, even on occasion gives votes, to SomeStrangeFlea, Tyler, Oman and Sammich, but he never takes a serous swing at any of them. In the case of SomeStrangeFlea and Tyler Laptop spends as much time apologizing for his cases and taking them back as he does making them. In the case of both Sammich and Oman he suggests that even while he’s suspicious of them he thinks mafia might be driving their wagons. In the case of Jordan, he uses SomeStrangeFlea mildly defending Jordan as one evidence of why he’s suspicious of SomeStrangeFlea even though Laptop states that he doesn’t like the wagon.

No part of Laptop Gun’s long tenure of voting for SSF seems sincere to me, with LtG never making a single honest attempt to present a case that would attract serious attention, and on several occasions suggesting he thought his suspicions were less than valid. LtG pointed suspicion at Tyler and then spent nearly as much time posting why he thought he might not be scum as scum. He’s expressed suspicion of Sammich and then posted distaste and distrust of the fact people were expressing suspicion of Sammich. The only player he’s come close to maintaining a consistent attitude toward is Oman. I know LtG says this is a play style, but it’s a style that makes him look like scum. Oh, I also hated the bit where Laptop Gun said he couldn’t take his vote off SSF because it would make him look scummy. Like saying that doesn’t?

And Laptop Gun’s catch 22 post was just terrible. First, there are plenty of things to talk about, plenty of directions to push in, and plenty of leads to follow. Reading the thread, identifying them and then following them is all that’s required, but to do that you have to be willing to commit to something. Second, “Oman could be scum or the mafia are pushing for a mislynch, but to find out we may have to lynch him.”? This is not a catch 22. These are possibilities you face with any lynch, in any game, at any juncture. Well, except for it being Oman. And LTG’s statement smells way too much like, oh well, we may have to lynch Oman just to find out what dark forces may be behind lynching him. They’ll certainly be the ones responsible if he is lynched and comes up town, not good townfolk like me. Third is just inexplicable. If folks aren’t posting you prod them. If prodding doesn’t work you replace them. Thus goes the game.

So, Laptop Gun, I would ask you at this point to put names to any of the five individual times above when you suggested that scum were manipulating events. Which scum and how? Because if you can’t at least give us examples of who you suspected, then these posts can only be seen as maliciously unhelpful to town. Without names they represent at best an attempt to make any action of your own seem blameless and at worst attempting to muddy the actions of every player with vague, blanket suspicions that serve only to make it harder for town to hunt scum.

I’d like to finish with two back to back posts of Laptop Gun’s, both on the subject of Sammich:

I am not voting anyone at this time as I have a lot to think about. Shteven is going through some interesting machinations to really hammer home Sammich is scum. I find Sammich's behavior scummy while I think Shteven is trying to really help town. The problem is the mafia would want to be this nice and hammer home how an innocent townie is scum. Whatever the case I got scum vibes from Sammich. Im gonna do a reread and see if I get more of them.

Well here we go. Either Sammich is scum or he's innocent getting railroaded. I will say I feel bad for him that his hardworn analysis has left the people who are still responding to the thread unsatisfied. I just dont know at this point. I will maintain that I feel the mafia have been fanning the bandwagons... or perhaps starting new ones to divert attention from their cohorts. In this game the mafia have been active (more active than in my previous experience). Or that's my theory...

That second post, I presume, came after the reread.

At some point, LtG, you have to tell us who the dark forces are that are manipulating every event. You have to present evidence as to why you believe it to be true. Or you have to commit to someone you claim to be suspicious of and attempt to prove it, first to yourself and then to the rest of us. This may be your play style, and you may just be compassionate and uncertain. But it is a play style that works against town and for you in a way that isn’t very town-like.

If you can please also tell us if you have yet decided whether or not Sammich or Oman are likely scum. Based on their actions, not on the possibility that those who have accused them or questioned them are themselves scum (unless you would like to present an actual case for this being so). Thank you for your response.

[Justin Playfair]

Oman

You know, I’m not as convinced Oman is scum as some people here. It’s sure on the table, Oman has had some pretty bad moments and he makes a pretty easy target. I just think there are people who have gotten a lot less attention for being scummier than he has.

Oman jumps on the Jordan bandwagon in post 35, and yes he makes it clear he’s bandwagoning. Now I mostly don’t agree with bandwagons to apply more or less random early pressure on people, but I know I’m in the minority. But here’s the thing, brought up by others and most undeniably true: If you tell the person you’re putting pressure on that you’re only doing it to put pressure on them, there are only two possibilities: 1. You’re lying. 2. You’ve just stopped putting on the pressure you were talking about. And when Oman says in post 69 that he’s wagoning for wagon’s sake and that he’ll definitely jump off at -1 or -2 then he’s doing one or the other. Because Jordan, the guy Oman was wanting to put pressure on? He can read that post too. And even if he doesn’t believe it, Oman’s sure given him something to talk about that drains that pressure away.

Because of this, when in post 100 Oman switches his vote to TylerJ it looks like he’s doing it to prove his point. Not that the reasons Oman gave weren’t, at the time, as valid as the reasons for just about any of the votes cast to that point, but it seemed a little cause and effect. And responding die scum die to TylerJ’s explanation of his statement made Oman look bad. It was bad in a way that attracts votes, especially in the early stages of a game.

Post 150 isn’t so good either. Because Oman votes Jordan and calls him a hypocrite for voting against Oman even though Jordan’s explanation of why he was doing so was, like Oman’s explanation of his vote against TylerJ, about as good as it got at this point in the game. Now do I suspect there was some element of ‘yes, look at somebody other than me’ and maybe just a little smidgen of OMGUS in Jordan’s vote? Yes. Then again I think it’s pretty understandable. Oman’s response looked strictly OMGUS, and his tone made him seem more immediately defensive than Jordan had.

I’m not big on the whole idea of someone getting defensive being a tell, by the way. But claiming you’re the kind of player who likes bandwagoning to put on pressure and then reacting this way when the pressure is put on you doesn’t look great. And this, from Oman’s post 153, is worse:

This bandwagon attack on me because of my playstyle is bullshit, complete and utter. That doesn't mean I think everyone on it is scum, but I certainly advise everyone who is on me to really look at why they are on me, and if bandwagoning is your only reason, well thats really poor play.

Hmm…”if bandwagoning is your only reason, well that’s really poor play.”? What, precisely, would make their bandwagoning poor play and Oman’s bandwagoning good play? Wouldn’t Oman’s bandwagoning be as good a reason to put some pressure on him as Jordan’s tone would on him? It certainly produced much more discussion.

Now as for the AlyG incident I have no problem with Oman being upset. And I think the attempts to turn his anger over it into some meta-meta scum tell were just stupid. Whether you’re town or scum you’d equally not want to be lynched over something like that. On the other hand I also think Oman claiming that this made AlyG scum didn’t make much sense either. AlyG did something dumb.

I agree with Oman’s post 188 where he calls Shteven’s vote on Sammich really bad. For that point in the game and Shteven’s given reason it was pretty bad. And I like that with a wagon on top of Oman he still pointed this out. It would have been easy to just heave a sigh and be glad it wasn’t a vote on him. Oman goes even further in post 192 and I like this a lot. When TylerJ tries to suggest Oman’s “hinting” at people it is one of the single oddest accusations in the entire thread. Oman’s previously called Jordan “Jordanscum”, posted “die scum die” to TylerJ and voted for everyone on his post 192 list but himself.
I don’t agree with Oman’s continued suspicion of Jordan but his post 273 was the best critical breakdown of the Sammich analysis post.

I also agree with Oman in voting for Shteven in post 294. And I agree with him again when he called out SomeStrangeFlea for some tortured logic involving Sammich’s claim about Shteven’s role.

But then…this. Post 379:

I'm going to say chronic lurking has broken this game apart a fair bit.

Now...I'm going to put forward an unpopular idea bbbbuuutttt...What if we just lynch a lurker (and I'm not usually in favour of this but this C9 allows a fair few mislynches I think). I mean, we get a bit more info (based on NKs and lynchee).

Or we could jsut lynch Schteven.

And I have to ask you here, Oman…was there a scummier way you could have worded this? Just lynch a lurker? When we could more easily than not lynch a townie? And then maybe see three more town die overnight? No, that still wouldn’t bring up a lynch or lose, but going that far down the road to one on the basis of a random lynch just seems horrible. And then throwing in that we could just lynch Shteven?

I also don’t like that Ooba actually sort of agreed with Oman on this. Ooba’s been pretty close to Oman throughout this game.

Oman points out that town has had an extremely difficult time coming to a consensus on who to lynch. And he suggests Sammich and TylerJ as folks he wouldn’t mind lynching. But what about Shteven, from back just a few posts ago? So Oman, are you saying you’d be happy with TylerJ, Sammich or Shteven?

I do absolutely agree with Oman taking LapTop Gun to task for his catch 22 list.

In short Oman, looks awfully spotty to me. He’s had some good moments in this game, which is more than can be said for some folks, and when he seems to be trying he’s honed in on what I found to be some compelling things. On the other hand he has an OMGUS problem and has made a couple of just attention grabbing horrible posts that don’t seem consistent with town behavior. Plus, I don’t particularly like the seeming relationship with Ooba. I’m suspicious of Oman, but he doesn’t make the cut for my top three.

Oman, if you’re still out there, anything you could tell me that would help me understand what differentiates the bandwagons you like jumping on and the one that built on you early would be appreciated. Also anything that would make sense of your suggestiong that a random lurker be lynched but that you would also be happy with lynching any of three named players would be nice. Thank you.

[Justin Playfair]

Sammich

Let me begin by saying my method of examining posts is woefully inadequate for Sammich’s style of play.

Reasons for things include:

Vote Oman
Bandwagons=/=Shamelessness
Bandwagons=Reason

FoS: Ooba
Wtf.

=\

Yay!

Anyway Unvote.

Defenses and Explanations include:

THERE'S NOTHING TO MAKE A DEFENSE ABOUT.
ADSFJKL;

I'd rather not have those votes and FoS's taken off if you don't have a clue what I was FOSing someone about.

But it's Super Sexy town.
How can you not go wrong?

Gasp. Well excuuuuuuuuuuse me, Professor Mafia!

and my favorite:

That's a lot of suspicion on me.

To be fair in one of Sammich’s bad exchanges early Ooba helped a lot. And there are times when you can make a pretty good guess what Sammich is getting at by carefully reading his cryptic comments in context with previous posts. But Sammich, you can’t expect others to work to understand you when you can’t be bothered to write the complete sentence or two it would take to communicate your thought more clearly. And your refusal to answer questions or suspicions is inexplicable. It is quite possible that inside your head you hold a perfectly reasonable, logical perspective of events in the game. But the game requires you to communicate that to others.

There were also more conventional bad bits in Sammich’s play, like calling doctor on another player. Really that whole post was bad. Self-contradictory and meandering in a way that rendered it useless.

But is Sammich scum? Is he town? I don’t know, don’t even know how to begin to decide. I don’t think anyone else does either, having read every comment to and on him in the thread. This makes him a danger to the town, because he provides it with no meaningful standard with which to gauge his actions. Sammich, you could correct this, and with only a little effort. But if you don’t, you put us in the position of having to judge your evasion and sometimes open refusal to engage in discussion as scummy simply because you’ve given us no way to judge it otherwise.

[Justin Playfair]

I will answer any questions anyone has, or will be happy to post any analysis anyone asks for, but until the modkill/replacement issue has been settled I will probably not do much else. If anyone needs anything, though, I'll be checking in at least once a day, except maybe on the 25th.

[Justin Playfair]

Oman,

Just a quick thank you for your answers. And going back and rereading your bandwagon comment I see your meaning now. And yes, now that I understand the comment, I would agree that the bandwagon on you for your bandwagoning earlier was weak, though not out of bounds for early game play. Also, glad to see you’re still with us. Scum or Town, you’ve made some of the most fun to read posts in the thread.

[Justin Playfair]

And since CuriousKarmaDog brought up LoudMouthLee, here are my thoughts on him, at the time I replaced into the game. It doesn’t include Cornerman because Cornerman wasn’t here at that time. I don’t know if LML/Cornerman is one of the players due for modkill, but if they aren’t I will give my thoughts on Cornerman’s actions since he entered the game once we know.

LoudMouthLee,

Begins as badly as possible, picking on Jordan and Shteven for their “tones”. And really, let’s look at these early posts. First, taking this line from Jordan out of context (and even out of context it doesn’t look bad):

Vig, while it is possible that you killed scum last night

And extrapolating this:

I find it incredibly interesting that your opening post contained that line. It's possible, as you say, but no more probable that he was the SK. I find it very curious how the tone of your post makes it seem like you KNEW that the vig killed Mafia.

Vote: Jordan, our resident Serial Killer.

This would, of course, be the only way that anyone would know that the Vig killed mafia. I get that from the tone of his opening post. The vig has a 50/50 chance of either hitting scum or hitting a townie. For all we know, the vig killed the townie and the SK killed the mafia member.

Yeah, maybe that’s why Jordan said it was possible. Sort of like a 50/50 chance. The fact that LoudMouthLee here tries to pretend Jordan said something he didn’t is bad enough. The fact that LML can’t even create a line where Jordan’s own words support the lie LML’s telling is worse. But LoudMouthLee actually tries to push this lie based case to conclusion:

You catch more scum on page one than you catch on page 30.

This culminates with this in post 32:

I wouldn't be shocked that one of them (Jordan and Shteven) is the SK and the other is the Vig.

Yes folks, that was the end of post 32.

Inexplicably (because Jordan’s defense seemed just about right to me in response to something so ridiculous) LoudMouthLee gains some traction on this. Not enough, though, and as a second bandwagon forms on Oman we get another duo. LoudMouthLee wants a modkill of AlyG for posting something from an ongoing game…

Mod, if you are unsure as what to do about this sitiuation (I know I would be floored, and I have modded for a long time), I recommend talking to MeMe and asking her advice.

I strongly recommend NOT removing any references, as they have happened and probably WILL be referenced again in this game.

…but also wants what AlyG did preserved so it can be used against Oman.

Just in case anyone missed it, by the way, LoudMouthLee wants AlyG modkilled…

Here's what bothers me, Oman.

#1) This, in my opinion, casts a much darker shadow on AlyG than you. However, your incredible amounts of "defensiveness" makes me a little bit concerned.

I feel like you're going through a "I'm scum, and I shouldn't be lynched over something like this!"

I feel a town alligned player would have just waited for the mod to come and fix it, rather than an outcry for having it removed. I am not prepared to vote you on it, as it's unfortunate. However, you will probably be lynched over it.

If I were mod, I would modkill AlyG, but that's just me. Your reactions to the whole ordeal makes for interesting banter.

Major FoS: Oman

…and also wants Oman under suspicion for reacting negatively to what AlyG did. I want to call especial attention to what LML says he believes a “town aligned” player would do. Because LML called out for AlyG to be modkilled right quick. It’s just an extremely convenient twofer for an opportunistic scum. Argue for AlyG to be modkilled for the same thing you accuse Oman for being angry over, even saying he will “probably be lynched” because of it.

In post 240 LML takes his vote off Jordan and puts it on Aimee, suggesting an Aimee/SomeStrangeFlea connection. Goes all the way to voting based on Aimee’s vote on SSF, saying that his opinion was sealed by SSF’s reaction.

There isn’t enough from LoudMouthLee, and he’s been gone for too long, for me to put him at the top of my list. But everything he’s done looks like hunting for victims, not hunting for scum. His behavior regarding Jordan/Shteven and AlyG/Oman, especially, is just horrible.

[Justin Playfair]

Somestrangeflea,

We know we have a vig, though, right? Because of the night 0 kills? And I would assume Khelvaster would have told us if the vig had died because he told us the cop did.

[Justin Playfair]

Sadly enough I'm not sure I don't agree.

I will say Fonz, that you hadn't posted for 11 days before the modkill, so you freaking out over it to the extent you are is a little over the top. Shoot, you've posted almost as much since you got modkilled as you had in total, since the middle of November, when you joined the game. On the other hand it is also fair to say that some people weren't modkilled who hadn't been here in an even longer time.

And that's why I'm not sure we have anyplace to go.

Because I don't have the sense we're likely to see Opposed Force again, and Sammich and Aimee have been gone for a really long time. I guess in Aimee's case she's likely to be back at some point, but I don't know about Sammich. I think Ooba has been sniffing around, but that's still three more players seemingly MIA.

This means we're likely still hunting for multiple replacements or looking at more modkills. And my guess is modkills, unless we all decide to go Oman’s route and lynch those who don’t post in order of their seeming scumminess. Because I don’t think I’d replace into this game now, and I like replacing.

I don’t blame Khelvaster for this at all. Thanks for coming in to mod, Khelvaster. There’s no telling how unbalanced the game would have been left if Aimee, Opposed Force and Sammich had been whacked, too. If all three were town you’re left with six town and three scum (2 mafia + 1 SK) even with Fonz killed too. And with two kills (maybe three kills, if the vig’s still alive) per night, that wouldn’t leave much game left to play. When I pm’ed Khelvaster I alluded to this. He was in a tough spot, trying to salvage a game that wasn’t his to begin with, and I suspect he tried to find the best balance he could. I see the big problem here being whether there were enough working parts left to keep the game functioning.

And thanks, CuriousKarmaDog, but I’m just getting started here, and I need the practice whether the game goes to conclusion or not. Believe it or not I actually made shorter entry posts here than in the first game I replaced in (like half as long and less) so it’s already been a good experience for me. A couple more and I might get them down to a size that doesn’t make people cry because they have to read them.

I’m more than happy to go on with the game. But I’m okay with it if the general will is that we should abandon.

[Justin Playfair]

Fonz,

Fair enough.

[Justin Playfair]

In for 60. Vanilla townie here.

[Justin Playfair]

Shteven,

Damn! You were a doc?

Well yay me, then. I was the vi.

Are you sure you weren't a scummy doc?

Hold on. I'll reread the thread and make a case.