Open 50: The New C9 - Abandoned!

[Shteven]

I'm all for being serious on the first page, The only point of random voting is because there's nothing serious to talk about yet. If there's something serious, go for it.

As far as vigging goes, you may have a significantly higher chance to hit town, but hitting mafia is worth more. I'm not saying I'd recommend night one kills, but saying that you're more likely to hit town than mafia isn't the whole story.

As far a random vote, I'd

Vote TylerJ

because his avatar claimed godfather.

[Shteven]

I'm all for throwing around serious discussion early game, but saying that you've figured out two singular roles in less than 48 hours is a bit extreme. The chances of you being right about one of us is slim, and even without knowing my role PM I'd still say you have pretty much no chance of being right about both of us.

By singular role I mean there's only one SK and only one Vig; it would be easier to get mafia, although it's too early to have much information about mafia spread throughout the thread.

I don't believe I've ever played with LML before (He's usually modding my games) but I suppose just from knowing him this kind of get-started-sprinting makes a lot of sense for him. I don't think it's much of a tell - in either direction.

[Shteven]

Also as an aside, I think it would be best to not talk so much about the Vig role; no need to leave clues and let the mafia narrow down power roles.

[Shteven]

vote: Jordan

FoS: shteven

Tone thing is pretty big, but I'm more concerned about the way they both have tried to move suspicion back onto LML (although shteven not as much as Jordan). I don't understand how anything LML has done so far is anti-town.

I never sad anything about LML being scummy for starting so quickly. I said he was likely incorrect, and that it was a null tell (ie, does not reveal anything about his alignment). If you're going to paraphrase me, please be careful to get it right!

As far as being overdefensive, I'll go on the record right now as a very defensive player. If someone says something about me, I believe it merits a response. The above line by Aimee was incorrect, and I'm fixing it. I don't expect anyone to read a 100+ page and still growing game, but if you want to see my play style, I was just lynched in mafia 64 and was a (now) proven townie who defended himself constantly. Right from day one I got into extensive arguments with Glork.

Fortunately for those who don't want to read 100+ pages, White, LML, and manaspryte were all in that game so just ask them.

But don't worry, I'm not a big fan of CAPITAL LETTERS.

[Shteven]

Shteven, about time someone voted on me about my avatar. lol...

Honestly I'm a bit shocked I'm the first. It's an honor

[Shteven]

I'm going to throw my lot in with Skitzer and

Vote: Omen

With the additional reason that jumping on the bandwagon was too soon, and especially since he tried to downplay it. If you're going to join a wagon, own up to it.

Jordan's wagon I'm not quite buying, plus it's already at 5, which is rather high. The confidence you need to join a wagon already past halfway is a bit too steep for at this point.

One thing to note is Oman still has a "random" vote on him from before he became a wagon. AlyG needs to confirm if he's really in on the wagon or wants to unvote.

This would put Oman at 4 currently, 3 if you don't count AlyG. Jordan should still be at 5.

MOD NOTE: The vote will count despite a mispelling.

[Shteven]

My mistake then alyg, missed that. As far as Jordan "should be" it's merely meant that he's at 5 if I haven't made any mistakes, which I didn't. Perhaps it's a bit over cautious to phrase it that way, but it wasn't meant to imply he deserved to be at 5 (or that he didn't deserve to be at 5).

[Shteven]

For me personally, short posts are a pain because it's hard to get a feel for the player from so little. While the player may not be trying to hide, it feels like they are, and so I get more suspicious of them.

It could just be that my style is to respond to everything and so the contrast throws me off, who knows. Or maybe it feels too much like lurking...

Also, remember that != means not equal and =/= looks more like a face than a mathematical notation! Save that extra character!

[Shteven]

I find it hard to believe people are complaining about a 5 page re-read, but maybe that's just because my last game is still going and past 100 pages. Now there's some replacements I felt sorry for

***

Because I felt it may be useful, I'm compiling vote history so far. Maybe I'll keep this up throughout the game, or maybe I'll be lazy. If I'm lazy, someone else can always do it also.

Votes marked random only if explicitly stated random, or mentioning some random method for making the vote. Ie, oman's first vote was based on alphabetical order of player names. Dice rolled means they rolled dice in-thread.

Oman votes for Aimee (random).
Ooba votes for Oman (random).
Jordan votes for Opposed Force (Dice-rolled random).
SomeStrangeFlea votes for Opposed Force (dice rolled random).
LML votes for Jordan.
Sammich votes for LML.
LaptopGun votes for SSF. (random)
Jordan votes LML.
TylerJ votes Jordan.
Skitzer votes AlyG.
CKD votes obaa. (random)
OpposedForce votes SSF (random).
AlyG votes Oman (random).
White votes Jordan.
Shteven votes TylerJ (random).
Oman votes Jordan.
Aimee votes Jordan.
Sammich votes Oman.
Ooba votes Sammich.
Skitzer votes Oman.
Shteven votes Oman. (learn to spell nub)
AlyG confirms vote on Oman (no longer random).
Sammich confirms vote on Oman.
White votes Skitzer.
Oman votes TylerJ.
SSF votes LaptopGun.

***

Commentary: The Jordan wagon, based on LML's claim that jordan's post about the SK revealed that jordan is the SK, has stalled. People haven't left it yet and may still succeed, but later votes have tended towards Oman with some other scattered targets. It may be too early to successfully lynch, or perhaps he's hidden well enough. He's also reflexively voted LML.

Oman's case is based on his admitted band wagoning. I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice. I will consider this, I'm not moving my vote just yet, but also wanted to point out this post:

vote: Jordan
FoS: shteven

Tone thing is pretty big, but I'm more concerned about the way they both have tried to move suspicion back onto LML (although shteven not as much as Jordan). I don't understand how anything LML has done so far is anti-town.

I think you meant "although Jordan not as much as Shteven".

I'm a bit curious what LML is trying to pull off here. He's already started the largest bandwagon so far, getting five votes for attacking one post (the response vote may also have helped fuel the wagon). He's now trying to start a brand new wagon? Granted wagons shift frequently at the start of the game, but it seems like LML may be trying to throw out anything that will stick at this point. What have I done that you think I deserve more suspicion than Jordan, who you've already claimed is the SK?

I'm aware that I may be playing into Aimee's concerns here, but I think it would be doing the town a disservice to be silent.

[Shteven]

Well you missed white's moving to laptopgun! He posted at the same time as my recount, so his vote wasn't in my post.

[Shteven]

Metagame defenses make me nervous, but I can't help realizing they're useful. People do play differently; but I'm really not interested in reading 2-3 games from player's past just to figure out how to play this game.

I do my best to avoid being scummy each game and I think you should too. Other than a few people saying I'm too defensive I think I do a pretty good job, we'll see

Early wagons at -2 are pressure. early wagons at -1 are a bad idea. You don't know who would be willing to hammer.

[Shteven]

Oy...I forgot to include the whole point. Wagoning for pressure is fine, I imagine that was LML's main point in attacking jordan. But if you outright tell the person it's just pressure, then there is no pressure. And that's just distracting. It's a good time to be voting Oman...

[Shteven]

Metagame defenses make me nervous, but I can't help realizing they're useful. People do play differently; but I'm really not interested in reading 2-3 games from player's past just to figure out how to play this game.

I do my best to avoid being scummy each game and I think you should too. Other than a few people saying I'm too defensive I think I do a pretty good job, we'll see

Early wagons at -2 are pressure. early wagons at -1 are a bad idea. You don't know who would be willing to hammer.

where did this post come from?

It is a direct response to the post immediately above mine, saying that Oman has acted equally in other games.

who is using a metagame defense?

It's been mentioned on behalf of omen a few times. Should probably double check if he's used it himself, but metagame defenses aren't really a scumtell imho. They just bother me, because people aren't likely to go read all the other games for a small chance at improving a read.

Why should we care you try to avoid being scummy...and why volunteer that people think you are too defensive?

Because I'm saying it's everyone's job to act pro-town. People shouldn't act scummy on purpose, I think it's harmful to the spirit of the game. I was trying to be a bit reasonable about this, though, because there are playstyle differences. To that end, I offered that people feel I'm over defensive as an example of a playstyle that could cause friction. I just think that when people ask me questions, as you did, that I should answer all of them, which I do.

[Shteven]

I'm not really seeing a reason to fos Ooba here. He could have done better by coming up with comments for the two players he missed, of course, but in general looking at early wagons for scum is a good strategy. It's the main factor in picking Oman, for when he jumped on Jordan.

[Shteven]

EBWOP: the last sentence should read "it's my main factor...". Of course you're all welcome to agree with me!

If Sammich is FOS'ing over the no comment for his vote, then that's fine. However, sammich should also be explaining this. "wtf" is a horrible way to throw suspicion on someone, we have no idea why you're doing it.

Ooba: A better line if you're confused would be to say something like "I can't get a read off this" or call it a null-tell.

this is an incredible silly post. everyone (scum included) should act pro-town? Some people think(not I) over defensiveness is scummy, should you stop being over defenesive then? Almost every type of action can be twisted to look scummy.

Yes, everyone, scum included, should try to look town. I thought this was obvious, but since no role has a win condition on being lynched, everyone wants to survive. The fact is that 80+% of us will be dead, and so it's not a requirement to win, but you certainly don't want to have members of your team (town or scum) killed off early.

Anything can be twisted to look scummy, sure. But if you're the one consciously trying to twist what someone else says, it will probably throw more suspicion on yourself than the person you're targeting for bad reasons.

[Shteven]

so what was your point in telling us everyone should try tonot act scummy?

That Oman was not doing this by band wagoning, and admitting to it.

[Shteven]

everyone wants to survive.

I have no particular need to survive. Serioiusly, if I die, I don't care, as long as I've helped the town to catch scum.

Sucking up much? I don't mean to imply this is scummy, it's just content-free.

The point of a town player is to catch the scum, if you're NKed for being so townie that you're a threat you succeeded.

I'll play devil's advocate then; let's assume you are townie. By getting so many votes yourself, you become a possible lynch target. Possible lynch targets make horrible, horrible night kills. You're more likely to survive because the mafia would rather you get lynched than kill you themselves. I happen to have done this in my last game of mafia, I was a townie who was fairly high on the votes. I survived to day 5 when eventually they did kill me - by a lynch.

The ones who are night killed are the ones without many votes on them, perhaps townies who are correct about who scum are, but often not, as you don't want the dead body itself to be evidence. That can be wifom; but the non-voted being killed is usually true and not wifom.

[Shteven]

If Sammich is FOS'ing over the no comment for his vote, then that's fine. However, sammich should also be explaining this. "wtf" is a horrible way to throw suspicion on someone, we have no idea why you're doing it.

Gasp. Well excuuuuuuuuuuse me, Professor Mafia!

FOS: Sammich. Thanks for the explanation. I'm glad you didn't just decide to mock my valid concern and leave the question hanging.

[Shteven]

Actually, the more I read it, the more it bothers me.

Unvote; Vote: Sammich

I'd appreciate if you'd pretend to care.

[Shteven]

I don't have any requirements on post length Sammich, but just leave a reason why you think someone is suspicious when you FOS them, that's all.

If someone asks why you fos'ed them afterwards, not answering makes you look evasive, and implies there wasn't much reason. The vote isn't personal; it's just putting my concerns on record. I don't think you have much to fear from one vote.

[Shteven]

We're voting/FOSing you because you made a sarcastic comment rather than back up your FOS, if you back it up, we might take our votes/FOS's off you.

What reason is there to back-up?

Bandwagons=/=Shamelessness
Bandwagons=Reason

No Comment..

FoS Ooba

Wtf.

I'd rather not have those votes and FoS's taken off if you don't have a clue what I was FOSing someone about.

I already commented on this before:

If Sammich is FOS'ing over the no comment for his vote, then that's fine. However, sammich should also be explaining this. "wtf" is a horrible way to throw suspicion on someone, we have no idea why you're doing it.

Really it's a very trival matter which is just dragging out at this point. It would have been better to say "We aren't certain what your reasons are" than "no idea why" as there is a suggestion...but more is needed (in my opinion). Explicitly stating your reasons gives us a lot more to work with. Suggesting them, then hiding from further inquiry does not help us. Less is not more. As I stated in the first post on this (the one quoted) this really isn't a big deal at all. Your handling of it was very odd indeed.

[Shteven]

I'm quite unimpressed with SSF so far - I'd have expected more scumhunting. Similarly LML seems to have hidden away after a prominent opening.

I noticed this as well, but wasn't going to after LML just yet. But now on thursday, I'm getting a bit more curious as to what he thinks about:

- Jordan's wagon building up so quickly
- Jordan's wagon then stopping
- Oman picking up 6 votes

And any other observations. Are you happy with the results of Jordan's wagon or do we need to take it all the way to lynch?

[Shteven]

Glad to hear from LML again, and yes, some other people are probably lurking although I haven't gone through the player list yet. I'll probably do this at some point soon, although I may be too busy this weekend.

I also think SSF/laptop may be good targets, and my vote on sammich made it's point and I'll move on. I'm not sure which target I like the most yet, I will be rereading them and when I make a choice I'll vote.

For now,

Unvote.

[Shteven]

I believe the phrase is content-free, dear Sammich.

I'm puzzled and suspicous on his post where he states that everybodies job is to act pro-town. If everybody were to do this then that would slim our chances of catching scum.

Please identify which players are supposed to intentionally act scummy. Would you prefer if the mafia would claim mafia goon for the benefit of the town?

[Shteven]

Having checked SSF/laptop Gun, neither of them really seem to be clearly scum. Laptop is slightly suspicious, but there's no smoking gun to be found. There probably aren't any smoking guns to be found on day one, though.

In short, I'm going to keep looking. Perhaps Oman may still be the best bet, but I'm going to consider it a bit further before I re-vote or vote someone else.

[Shteven]

1) summarizing the thread like that isn't helpful. This could be scummy, but it could not be. It's pretty hard to vote over this. The thoughts section didn't contain much useful thoughts either, but that could just be day 1 being hard to read. Honestly, I don't know how much better mine would be.

2) Claiming "super sexy town" is not a claim. "town" is a content-free (and therefore acceptable) claim to make at any time. Everyone here is town, right? claiming townIE -is- a claim, and that would be very suspicious. So sammich did not make a roleclaim. So while there's no real need to post your own alignment, if you feel like claiming you get the ladies, it's not a scumtell.

3) Claiming I'm a doctor is where you went wrong. There's no reason for a town player to do this. It's either a horrible gaffe, or you're trying to signal who needs to be killed. I certainly hope it's not an innocent mistake, because this is day 1 and this evidence will be enough for my vote.

Vote: Sammich

Votes have been coming in pretty fast, so while I have a chance, I'd like to conduct a poll, for everyone: Should we delay a lynch if sammich gets to -1 or -2, or is this enough day 1 posting? My last game went into 40+ pages on day 1 and that was a bit...headache inducing

[Shteven]

EBWOP: ok, votes aren't quite as fast as I thought. That should be 3 (he had 0 before the post, right?)...I forgot two of them were just FOS; so unless those are upgraded he still has a fair amount of wiggle room to go.

[Shteven]

CKD: I'm curious if you thought the 3 points were all supposed to be reasons for the vote. They were just bulleted items, the only real reason for the vote was point 3. Point 1 doesn't help, but it wouldn't be a vote on it's own. Point two isn't scummy at all.

As far as claiming a pro-town alignment, I am surprised to see so much confusion/disagreement on it. I would assume that anyone playing mafia, in any game, would claim they are pro-town. Pro-town players because they're actually town, and scum groups because they don't want to be lynched. Therefore I don't see any value in saying it or not; it's a null tell. Scum should be trying to act town, it's one of the basic rules of the game. If they acted like scum, there wouldn't be much of a challenge. The job of the town is to watch for them to make is a mistake; they aren't going to try to make it easy on you. Mafia that don't attempt to play like town are undermining their team, their role, and the spirit of playing mafia.

Attempting to out power roles is scummy behavior. Now in this case it was a tad bit obvious, so there's merit to the argument it was a town mistake. That said, the chance that it's not a town mistake earned my vote. I haven't exactly been fond of Sammich's tone in the past, which perhaps made me more willing to return to voting him.

[Shteven]

Vote : Shteven

and an

FOS:Aimee

if he turns out to be scum .. (Because Post 230 was directed at Aimee and it just seems somewhat scummy to me)

To be precise, it was a post from me to LML. However, while it was mulling around in my head, Aimee posted more or less exactly what I was thinking, so I echoed her sentiments and directed the questions at LML. So the link is there, I just wanted the clarify the questions were for LML.

Pointing out someone as Doc is scummy hands down. Unfortunately, it is so hands down that you wouldn't do it. So we reach Wifom.

I agree with this and it does worry me. I still believe it was a scum mistake, but it's so obvious that it's hard to trust. Sammich hadn't exactly inspired confidence in me previously though, so I was willing to restore my vote. My reads on other players who have attracted suspicion didn't seem nearly as scummy as Sammich does now. I'll add some more reasons below, stay tuned.

[Shteven]

Ok, so several votes, people mentioning some valid concerns about sammich's large post, and what has he had to say for himself since? He has posted three times since his summary post, and so he's clearly here, reading, and aware of what's going on. Here's what he's posted, his text only, not quoted text:

But it's Super Sexy town.
How can you not go wrong?

Thanks for clearing that up.

That's a lot of suspicion on me.

Yes, yes it is.

=\

Wow, now that's helpful.

</sarcasm>

Seriously, this lack of response doesn't make him that much more likely to be mafia. And I am rather afraid we'll be mislynching town...he's just not giving me much to work with, to let him off the hook.

[Shteven]

You could start by explaining why you mentioned power roles? Just a crazy idea.

[Shteven]

I also find it especially odd that Sammich's post seems to have stopped all other debate. Doesn't anyone else have something to say?

Sammich's post was last tuesday 3:46 forum time. Since then (four days) the following players have not posted ONCE:

LoudmouthLee
White
ManaSpryte
AlyG
timmers2001
skitzer


They're all officially lurkers in my book. Some worse than others, of course, but they're all pretty flaky.

[Shteven]

I'm trying to avoid having tunnel vision and letting other players slide by. You're welcome to keep asking sammich repeatedly why he thinks I'm a power role (seriously I have no idea what a doctor tell would even look like) but when you get another "=\", I'm not going to call that productive dialog

Timmers did ask for a replacement so that's certainly a good point, but unless they're all looking to be replaced, calling attention to the fact that

more than one third of the players aren't playing

is a perfectly valid point.

[Shteven]

And from the proving-I'm-right-department, I'm seeing no new posts here.

I'm sorry guys, I didn't mean to distract from all this massively productive Sammich discussion buy pointing out some people weren't playing.

[Shteven]

EBWOP: Errr, I meant to say few new, and none from the players I listed. Kind of silly to say none for everyone

[Shteven]

First time I've ever seen bump posted to a game of mafia here. One of the problems with games slowing down, is players who would like to come and post, don't have much to go on. "Bump" doesn't give much to reply to; and some players are afraid their post will stand out.

I generally try to post every day, although I did miss a day here due to not much new happening, so I figured I'd have to handle this one.

I still feel that Sammich is the play for the day. Bump certainly isn't scummy, but it's also not scum hunting, something Sammich hasn't made any serious effort to do. Let's get this game moving forward again

[Shteven]

I still feel Shteven is the way to go..

also, I have seen and provided quite a few bumps..not a big deal, is somebody making it a big deal?

Bump certainly isn't scummy

So how's it feel to intentionally take something someone said and turn it 180 degrees? I haven't played a huge amount of games. First I saw, I said it wasn't scummy.

[Shteven]

I'm not making a big deal out of the bump. I am about how he's simply not scum hunting. The bump itself is meaningless; the fact that he is here, posting, and

not looking for scum or advancing the game

is what I called him on. You are trying to defeat a straw man.

[Shteven]

LML, has a point, why do you care...anyone can meta and see it..your reactions do seem odd if you are town. Why didnt you PM the mod or MeMe?

LML, why do you think Oman will be lynched? because of his reaction or the actual reference.

Was rereading some older pages, and this struck me as odd. From page 7, CKD asks LML why he thinks Oman will be lynched. You already assumed the lynch was certain? Obviously it's died down now, but back then he had a decent wagon. This was after the referencing ongoing games problem, and people talking about metaing Oman.

The certainity, and the apparent teamwork, bother me quite a bit.

FOS: CKD

[Shteven]

Time for Shteven's official "Posts that slipped between the cracks and deserve more discussion" roundup post!

everyone wants to survive.

I have no particular need to survive. Serioiusly, if I die, I don't care, as long as I've helped the town to catch scum.

I believe this would count as an appeal to emotion. It's also not optimal for a townie to play this way, in my opinion. But there are those who would disagree, and I can't fault everyone for that.

I happen to like viewtopic.php?p=794268#794268, specifically the LTG parts.

A question specifically for LML, if he's still around: Do you still believe in viewtopic.php?p=797717#797717 strongly? Have you seen anything else to rival this, or is Aimee/SSF the play for today?

SSF: why haven't you responded to LML's claims?

Aimee didn't respond until after the Sammich wagon started, and then added her vote to the Sammich wagon. It gives the appearance of trying to sweep the attacks on her under the much larger rug that Sammich's wagon affords.

Pointing out someone as Doc is scummy hands down. Unfortunately, it is so hands down that you wouldn't do it. So we reach Wifom.

I feel you should not eliminate the obvious blunders, sometimes people make really bad moves. If it was an innocent mistake, I feel Sammich would have claimed that by now. That he won't even defend it makes me feel it was in fact a scum tell.

P.S. How do I name hyperlinks so it doesn't show the entire URL?

[Shteven]

I posted my roundup at the same time as CKD's, so I hope people can see I was trying to legitimately go and find things that needed attention in the thread.

That said, I missed LML being the one who orginally claimed the Oman lynch was incoming. And he said probably, making it more reasonable. Since I missed that, I misread CKD's followup, which was perfectly reasonable. I am sorry about that.

UNFOS: CKD

If "unfos" is even possible

The people I find suspicious at the moment are:

Sammich
Oman
Aimee
SSF
LML

I'd like to hear more from the last 3, of course.

[Shteven]

I posted my roundup at the same time as CKD's, so I hope people can see I was trying to legitimately go and find things that needed attention in the thread.

That said, I missed LML being the one who orginally claimed the Oman lynch was incoming

. And he said probably, making it more reasonable.

Since I missed that, I misread CKD's followup, which was perfectly reasonable. I am sorry about that.

UNFOS: CKD

If "unfos" is even possible

The people I find suspicious at the moment are:

Sammich
Oman
Aimee
SSF
LML

I'd like to hear more from the last 3, of course.

well if I got a "major FOS" for "assuming", why are you not asking LML the exact same questions you asked me and giving him a "major fos" for assuming?

See bolded section above.

[Shteven]

Agreed; it's much better to lynch someone who's suspicious than to randomly target someone who's not here.

[Shteven]

While I wouldn't say I am certain by a longshot, I'm more comfortable lynching Oman or Sammich than I would be a random lurker.

Picking a lurker to lynch is an excellent opportunity for scum to name someone they want killed. I mean, if the lurker turns up town, are you really going to hang the person who suggested the lynch? Especially after the idea of lynching some lurker has been accepted, it's a pretty secure way to guide a town lynch. They just say they're disappointed but felt that a lurker would be our best chance, and day 2 continues.

This alone isn't much of a sure thing, but I've already been suspicious of Oman most of the game, so if we're looking for a lynch that desperately, let me suggest:

Unvote. Vote Oman.

[Shteven]

I understand where you're coming from SSF, This seems to happen to a lot of the games I've been in recently. I've tried to remain active but I don't feel entirely productive either...I did list those people you asked to prod some time ago, although I probably should have bolded it, so thanks for making it offical.

[Shteven]

I can at least help out with a vote count:

Oman- 5 (AlyG, Sammich, Manaspyrte, TylerJ, Shteven)
Sammich- 4 (SSF, JordanA24, Aimee, ooba)
Shteven- 2 (Curiouskarmadog, Oman)
Laptop Gun- 1 (White)
Aimee- 1 (LML)


Gator's last count had 3 people on me with a count of 2...So I hope everything else was correct, ooba has unvoted since, I've moved to Oman, ooba moved to sammich. Opposed force also unvoted for LTG and hasn't yet voted anyone else.

17 alive, 9 to lynch

Not voting: Opposed Force, LaptopGun, somestrangeflea, the fonz*, skitzer*.

* The fonz has just replaced in, skitzer has asked for a replacement.

[Shteven]

Good evening.

Firstly, the Oman wagon is absolutely retarded.

Secondly, I would like to know why, of the players on the Sammich wagon, everyone jumped on Schteven in particular.

Good points. Can't answer the second for you...But would you mind explaining why the first point is so?

[Shteven]

I'm not a fan of day 1 wagons as a rule, I can't recall any I've felt really good about*. But you have to make one.

*There was a really awesome one in married to the mob where I was confident the town nailed scum day 1...it was me, though.

[Shteven]

Don't think we're really going to accidentally lynch anyone, will probably need a few replacements. Better idea to just say you're here and try to keep going!

[Shteven]

Vote: LML

Let the game pick up.

From what I can tell, LML seems to have dropped off the site almost entirely. One of these days I'll track down his cell phone number and go harass him as to why. A game he's modding, he's stopped posting under LML and seems to be modding from a secondary account. This doesn't make much sense to me either.

This post largely to let you know I'm still alive and kickin'. More to come.

[Shteven]

Well I must say I am most certainly impressed with the length of this post about me Some responses. All quotes Justin, non-quotes me.

P.S. Just finished writing this...my god I'm sorry for the length! Quote blocks make it clearer, but it suffers the wall-of-text problem...

And now Shteven:

Early on this gives me something to wonder about. It’s from post 31:

As far as vigging goes, you may have a significantly higher chance to hit town, but hitting mafia is worth more. I'm not saying I'd recommend night one kills, but saying that you're more likely to hit town than mafia isn't the whole story.

What is the whole story, Shteven? Because I’m hoping it’s more than “hitting mafia is worth more”. Why? Because the logical extension of that would be that random lynching wouldn’t be completely bad either, because if you happened to lynch scum that would be worth more too. If you can explain your thinking here more completely I would be grateful. It wasn’t your tone that worried me in this post. It was your logic.

In a balanced game, the two teams should start at the same level of power. Let's assume a simplistic setup of 12 players, 3 of which are mafia. A mafia member is therefore worth 3 times as much as a townie is. However, you're 3 times more likely to hit a townie than a mafia member, so this cancels out. The above is only a rough approximation; obviously if you're a vig there's one less townie around. If there's power roles (which there probably are, you're a vig after all) then you have a lot more risk, etc. There's a lot that could vary, but I do hold that in a -balanced- setup, the move should be more or less neutral. Most games you'll go down slightly, some games you'll get a significant lead. I don't recommend it, as power roles will skew it, and it's also against the spirit of mafia to a degree. Kills should be selected from information instead of randomly. It is this reason why your extension of this principle to random lynches is wrong, and possibly misleading. There is information after day 1. I did not say it; ask me questions if you don't follow, but do not put words in my mouth. You are stretching to build a case.

Shteven does a lot of “NotHunting”. Conciliatory, noncommittal, posting words that leave the thread in the same place it started. It makes it seem like he’s contributing, but there’s little of value to be gained. Do it sometimes and that’s fine. Do it as much as Shteven’s doing it and it makes me think you’re trying to show you’re in the game and active but don’t want to put yourself on the line. Post 33 is a good example of this:

I don't believe I've ever played with LML before (He's usually modding my games) but I suppose just from knowing him this kind of get-started-sprinting makes a lot of sense for him. I don't think it's much of a tell - in either direction.

So, maybe LML’s likely to be aggressive right as the game starts, and Shteven’s never played a game with him, but LML has modded games Shteven’s been in, and maybe it’s not so suspicious but who really knows. Have that argument with yourself Shteven. Then post your conclusions, and support them with the reasoning that got you there. Very little in life lies at precisely the 50 yard line.

You have a valid point that my post didn't advance the thread very much. However, I did already post my conclusions, so I'm not sure what else I could say about it. People who don't know him may think it's an overly aggressive move, I felt it was normal coming from him. It's a small point, but I thought it was useful. This is based mostly on our games of poker, where he often bets heavily and "controls" the table, but in a methodical manner.

More of the same in post 60, including a bit of defensive self-revelation about being defensive. Won’t post it all, but I’ll post the part that bothers me most (in response to an attack on Shteven’s tone by Aimee). You’ll see why Shteven’s meta-game defense here bothers me as we continue:

As far as being overdefensive, I'll go on the record right now as a very defensive player. If someone says something about me, I believe it merits a response. . I don't expect anyone to read a 100+ page and still growing game, but if you want to see my play style, I was just lynched in mafia 64 and was a (now) proven townie who defended himself constantly. Right from day one I got into extensive arguments with Glork.

Fortunately for those who don't want to read 100+ pages, White, LML, and manaspryte were all in that game so just ask them.

Post 65 we get a safe vote on Oman for bandwagoning. But then a lot more pretty empty words. Shteven critiques the Jordan wagon, not for merit but because it’s at five and…

The confidence you need to join a wagon already past halfway is a bit too steep for at this point.

Confidence in what? Jordan’s guilt? That the bandwagon might go to lynch with your vote on it? Shteven seems to be voting Oman with cause, not just for some faint hope at putting pressure on him. And then Shteven comments again on the number of votes on each. Why would it even matter at this point? Five votes away, four votes away, neither were dangerously close to being lynched.

The number of votes a wagon has when you join it directly affects the meaning of your vote. If you are the first person to vote someone, it is an informative vote - "Hey, this person did something scummy, everyone pay attention and tell me if you think I found something." Second and third votes are agreeing with this, to give it greater visibility. When you get to around halfway lynch (a game of this size, votes 4/5/6) you're saying that the candidate is scum and worth lynching. Final votes imply greater certainty, that you are convinced the person is the best choice, unless the person otherwise stated that they had some other preference but can't get a majority behind it.

These shades of meaning are all implied and may not be universal, but it's how I think of my votes. It does not require as much certainty to put the first vote on someone to draw attention to something they did as it does to put the 5th vote on someone and try to sell them as the lynch for the day. Scanning the thread again I was third on Oman after the initial random votes. Certainly not the first, but I do hold there's a difference. Pointing out that someone off to the side should be getting more attention vs advancing the leading bandwagon. One tries to shorten the day, the other tries to encourage further discussion. I was not (and am not) certain enough on Jordan to want to shorten the day.

Two more nearly completely contentless chatty posts follow, and then this one, which just flat out bothers me. First there is a very long recapping of the vote history. One might think studying the thread so closely would have given Shteven some insights, but he follows the recap with this:

Commentary: The Jordan wagon, based on LML's claim that jordan's post about the SK revealed that jordan is the SK, has stalled. People haven't left it yet and may still succeed, but later votes have tended towards Oman with some other scattered targets. It may be too early to successfully lynch, or perhaps he's hidden well enough. He's also reflexively voted LML.

Oman's case is based on his admitted band wagoning. I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice. I will consider this, I'm not moving my vote just yet, but also wanted to point out this post:

Hmmm…why would Jordan be the better choice? Oh, maybe it’s this, from later in the same post:

I'm a bit curious what LML is trying to pull off here. He's already started the largest bandwagon so far, getting five votes for attacking one post (the response vote may also have helped fuel the wagon). He's now trying to start a brand new wagon? Granted wagons shift frequently at the start of the game, but it seems like LML may be trying to throw out anything that will stick at this point. What have I done that you think I deserve more suspicion than Jordan, who you've already claimed is the SK?

I'm aware that I may be playing into Aimee's concerns here, but I think it would be doing the town a disservice to be silent.

Now to me this seems to be Shteven saying that Jordan (read anyone) would be a better choice than Shteven. And although Shteven actually comes up with a valid reason for being suspicious of LML he is instead suggesting that maybe it would have been a better idea for him to join “the largest bandwagon so far”, the one that LML started on Jordan. I also just hate that last line. Shteven later makes use of Oman making a silly claim as to how he doesn’t care if he dies if it helps the town, but there’s not a penny’s weight of difference between that and what Shteven does at the end of this post. Very noble. If there’s one thing that consistently makes me suspicious of someone it is hypocrisy.

This is probably your best point, it was a bit hypocritical. I didn't really think about it at the time; what I meant with my line was that I was repeating the behavior that Aimee felt was scummy. I felt it was worth it to try to get more from LML; and thought I should mention that because of my general policy to not appear scummy. I was contradicting that; so I wanted to explictly mention it. In doing so, I was a bit too grandiose and fell into the trap I blamed Oman for. It should be noted that the "I don't care if I die for the town" is still far more dramatic than "I may seem scummy posting this but it's for a good cause (information)". When I posted this orginally, I did not go so far as to connect my post with Oman's, just that I didn't want it to look like I was willfully being scummy with no reason.

Then here comes post 143:

Metagame defenses make me nervous, but I can't help realizing they're useful. People do play differently; but I'm really not interested in reading 2-3 games from player's past just to figure out how to play this game.

I do my best to avoid being scummy each game and I think you should too. Other than a few people saying I'm too defensive I think I do a pretty good job, we'll see

Early wagons at -2 are pressure. early wagons at -1 are a bad idea. You don't know who would be willing to hammer.

I’m not even going to comment on that well-discussed middle sentence,

Sorry to interrupt, but this itself is scummy. You've commented EXTENSIVELY on all my posts, but can't touch this part? You want it to appear worse than it is? Ever heard the term FUD? (if not, try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_un ... _and_doubt)

but the first part of this post seems a little odd considering the meta-defense Shteven used in post 60. Shteven, do meta-defenses make you nervous only when someone other than you are using them? Like claims of noble sacrifice on behalf of the town?

Not sure what you're getting at here. Yes, I dislike meta-game defenses as a rule, but I realize they're useful and won't go away. I don't know how noble sacrifices on behalf of town qualifies as a meta-game defense unless the person linked to some other game showing it as one. It's not related; it's just an easy-to-fake post which scum can use to plead their case. In general, I don't like people who try to look angelic; it's probably scum playing their role a bit too forcefully.

And post 145:

Oy...I forgot to include the whole point. Wagoning for pressure is fine, I imagine that was LML's main point in attacking jordan. But if you outright tell the person it's just pressure, then there is no pressure. And that's just distracting. It's a good time to be voting Oman...

Okay, let’s trace Shteven’s logic of wagons. A wagon that would still have been three votes away from lynch if he added his vote was too steep for him. A wagon at -2 seems like pressure. And if you tell the person it’s just pressure there isn’t any pressure. And there’s more about this later. Hey, I paid off when I promised there was more about meta-gaming, right?

I don't like your paragraph construction here. Several completely seperate thoughts come one after the other; I don't attribute this to malice, but it's misrepresenting what I said/believe. I'll quote what you said about me with quotes instead of quotation blocks:

"A wagon that would still have been three votes away from lynch if he added his vote was too steep for him."

Yes, joining a wagon already past halfway changes what the next votes on it means. See above; basically if you vote him at that point you are saying you have confidence that he is scum and would be comfortable lynching him that day. Early votes are more informational; later votes imply certainty.

"A wagon at -2 seems like pressure."

This one was taken out of context, and I don't like how it was lined up with the previous sentence. When I said that a wagon at -2 is pressure I meant that a wagon at -2 is ENOUGH to put significant pressure on a person. There isn't a need to go to -1; and I advise against it, because anyone can hammer it for potentially bad reasons. Being at -3 is pressure; being at -4 is pressure (when it's 9 to lynch). Just slightly less so. The point I was making was that putting someone at -1 is a serious move and not something you should do if the purpose of your vote is only to pressure them. You'd better be confident the person deserves it.

And finally, yes, telling a person you're only voting them for pressure does reduce the pressure and therefore defeat the purpose of your vote.

"And there’s more about this later. Hey, I paid off when I promised there was more about meta-gaming, right?"

Actually no, I'm not following you here. A talk about wagon size vs pressure is game theoretic, not meta-gaming.

And I’m glad it was a good time for voting Oman, since you never shared your thoughts on why it might be a good idea to switch your vote to Jordan.

Perhaps I never shared my thoughts on why it would be a good idea to vote for Jordan

because I never voted for Jordan

? Just a thought.

Post 173 mildly defends Ooba. Post 177 gives a little advice to Sammich and Ooba, and includes some defense about the middle section of his post 143. Then comes post 185, in which Shteven criticizes Oman for making a content free post. Won’t quote this post here but Shteven once again uses a meta-argument and then comes dangerously close to losing an argument with himself about what kind of player is most likely to be nightkilled.

Sorry to argue semantics...but it's not possible to lose an argument with yourself. The other-me would have won.

Shteven votes Sammich for okay reasons but in a later post makes sure Sammich doesn’t think it’s personal and points out Sammich doesn’t have anything to worry about because it’s only one vote.

Wow, sounds pretty consistent with the view that the first vote is more informative than certain, right?

Shteven’s post 201 looks good though, politely but firmly pushing Sammich to give him information.

Yep, this was pretty much the goal...

Shteven’s post 230, asking some questions of LML, is okay too(I see this: “Are you happy with the results of Jordan's wagon or do we need to take it all the way to lynch?” as a question asked to LML which may well have been more to gain information about LML than to continue to try to push that wagon).

Why, it's almost like you're on fire now. Pity LML isn't playing anymore, or it may have worked.

Post 250 is fine. In Post 259 Shteven chides Sammich for being content free. Shteven takes his vote off Sammich, saying it has done it’s job and in Post 259 Shteven announces that his reading of LaptopGun and SomeStrangeFlea resulted in nothing. No explanation, but I guess it was good to get the update.

Then Sammich posts his overview, which includes Shteven seeming like the doctor (which just makes sense which is non in so, so many ways) and Shteven makes this horrible post in response (286):

3) Claiming I'm a doctor is where you went wrong. There's no reason for a town player to do this. It's either a horrible gaffe, or you're trying to signal who needs to be killed. I certainly hope it's not an innocent mistake, because this is day 1 and this evidence will be enough for my vote.

Vote: Sammich

Votes have been coming in pretty fast, so while I have a chance, I'd like to conduct a poll, for everyone: Should we delay a lynch if sammich gets to -1 or -2, or is this enough day 1 posting? My last game went into 40+ pages on day 1 and that was a bit...headache inducing

I agree with CuriousKarmaDog about how opportunistic this post looks but will add a point CKD didn’t. Shteven, who lectured Oman about telling someone the bandwagon placed on them is just for pressure, now proposes “a poll” on the same subject. Then he continues by suggesting that maybe it’s time to lynch Sammich because there’s been enough day one posting. See, told you there would be more on Shteven’s theories of bandwagoning. Plus, and I really can’t help but say this, those votes you cast to lynch someone…they’re a poll. When someone gets enough votes in this “poll” they get lynched. This is such a bad bit from Shteven on just every level that I’m surprised it didn’t get him a far more substantial poll of his own.

You're probably right that there wasn't a need to hold a secondary opinion poll. I've been in games were day 1 went over 40 pages, so when I saw a lot of votes coming in I was afraid that more would follow at the same rate (when they generally taper off somewhat, except in the most extreme cases) and wanted to voice my concerns ahead of time. Probably a waste, but I don't think it shows malice on my behalf. Over cautious, yes.

Shteven’s defense in 297 is deflecting in that it skirts completely the issue of how opportunistic Shteven was being. After a defense in 305 against other things, Shteven continues to push for a Sammich lynch in 306, including this bit of distancing just to be safe.

My post in 297 was a response to CKD's concerns. I did address them; I simply didn't echo the word opportunistic. My previous list of 3 points was not intended to be "3 reasons sammich is scummy" but simply "I think these 3 things related to sammich are interesting." Point 3 was why I voted for him, not 1 or 2. If there's something else you think I should have responded to, let me know. As you can probably tell by now, I try to be complete in my responses And as a footnote, CKD was correct in that by this point I was willing to shorten the day, I felt Sammich was a good lynch candidate.

Seriously, this lack of response doesn't make him that much more likely to be mafia. And I am rather afraid we'll be mislynching town...he's just not giving me much to work with, to let him off the hook.

Shteven continues to push on Sammich, even going so far in post 321 to call out to lurkers who haven’t posted since Sammich “made his post”. CuriousKarmaDog calls him for deflection.

Called on it Shteven says it was to spur discussion and to get away from tunneling on Sammich. Which would be fine, except the call was linked to Sammich. How? Like this:

Sammich's post was last tuesday 3:46 forum time. Since then (four days) the following players have not posted ONCE:

This isn’t a post to get people to stop talking about Sammich. This is a post to point people who might not have read the Sammich post to it. If it isn’t, why does this all immediately follow?

My goal was not to get people to stop talking about Sammich. My goal was to get the same 3 people to stop talking about Sammich, and get a wider range of opinions. I would say that a player outing power roles without provocation is a pretty major daytime event, and certainly merits discussion by all of the players. Certainly, they're welcome to talk about any player, but Sammich held my main interest at the time, and yes, I'd like to hear more people talk about him. Maybe some of them would even vote for him. Sounds like a game of mafia to me

Shteven criticizes the continued discussion of Sammich and then posts, almost immediately, that he still wants to lynch Sammich. Shteven then uses Sammich doing a “bump” to go after Sammich again. Shteven doesn’t talk about anything other than Sammich until he finally gets tired of CuriousKarmaDog going after him over his scummy post 286.

Allow me to answer your above question: I continued to post about Sammich because I felt Sammich was scummy and wanted to lynch him. Would you propose I talk about Jordan in order to get Sammich lynched instead? That one's rhetorical, btw.

In post 360 Shteven misquotes an old post of CuriousKarmaDog in order to try to cast suspicion on him. OMGUS for absolutely sure, but also another attempt at a misdirect. Shteven then posts a whole list of old posts that need to be looked at again, just to prove he wasn’t looking back trying to find some dirt to throw at CKD, ending it, of course, with Sammich. When CKD pins Shteven on the misquote (the accusation based on this got its own post, not just part of a list) Shteven apologizes and even makes a list of suspects that doesn’t include CKD, which has the very safe to be suspicious of Sammich and Oman at the top.

I'm kind of confused at all the things you're accusing me of here. Given: I did in fact misquote CKD, due to skimming the thread on a reread. You then attribute an malicious intention behind this, and call it an "OMGUS for absolutely sure" even though CKD had been voting for me several pages (4 pages) at this point and I never expressed any concerns about the vote itself. He's actually voting me for our different reads of Sammich; he feels the attempt to out me as a doctor was a newbie town mistake, I feel it's scummy. It's certainly questionable if such a blatant mistake would really be a scum tactic, so I don't hold this against him. I could certainly be wrong. But I think it gives Sammich a better than random chance at being scum, and his utter unwillingness to even talk about it is another red flag. I feel if it's a newbie mistake, he should have posted some embarassed note and apologized, and then left it at that. Had he done so, I wouldn't be voting him now. He's continued to be evasive - he seems to hopes it will go away. So I'm trying my best to ensure it doesn't go away.

Shteven changes his vote to Oman after Oman suggests lynching a lurker.

I don’t like much of what I’ve seen from Shteven so far. Is being hypocritically inconsistent in his own favor on the subjects of meta-gaming and bandwagons and being sanctimonious about how the town comes first worth a vote? Probably not. Is the low content and refusal to commit on almost anything worth a vote? Probably not. Is the no explanation reason, raised under pressure and abandoned right after, for reconsidering his position on voting Jordan worth a vote? Taking a clumsy pot shot at CuriousKarmaDog and then making an even clumsier attempt to cover it with a list of similar “overlooked” posts which he never bothered to follow up on or build into a case? Probably not. But put it all together and combine it with that horrible post 286 and…yeah, I’m getting real close.

Wow. Nearly everything here just seems wrong. First, how was I hypocritical on meta-gaming? You never quite showed the two differing stances. My stance is clear: It's of limited credibility because you're never going to read three old games to verify one post here (at least I wouldn't) but can be useful to the person and is somewhat unavoidable. That is nuanced and feel free to call it wishy-washy, but it's not hypocritical.

I don't feel I've been "low content" but I suppose that's your call. However, you spent a fair amount of your post blasting me for calling for more attention on Sammich, calling attention to lurkers for the supposedly express purpose of getting them to talk about sammich, etc. How the hell can you then say I've refused to commit to anything? I've been one of the most committed players here, imho. Maybe I should reread the thread after the delays, but I seem to recall trying to get sammich lynched for some time now.

My position on Jordan was not a position. I mentioned him in a comment. I never voted for him; I did not have a stance to abandon. I'm not sure what pressure you think I was under to comment on him; no one attacked me for it, I was merely mentioning him because he was a leading wagon and I tend to share my opinions on those. I didn't feel it was a quality wagon.

The shot at CKD was a mistake. I would hope that people will check the timestamp with my longer post that was right after it to see that I was in fact rereading the thread and posting whatever I could find. I did not check the point against CKD carefully enough. I suppose if you don't buy the first apology, this one may not change your mind, though.

In short, I think most of your points are wrong or misguided. You have a valid point about my comment "I think it would be doing the town a disservice to be silent" but I can't find much else here that's useful. While in a post this long (your post, I mean) there's bound to be a few things that seem scummy, overall, you seem fine to me. I still have to read your Tyler post, I figured I'd start with mine.

In good news, I'd still take Sammich over you by a longshot!

[Shteven]

Skitzer (he even asked for one)
LML, Manaspryte (punks!)
and Timmers2001.

Above I consider unlikely to respond to prods

Good luck prodding: White, AlyG....if not, replace.

That should be all (as if 6 isn't enough) for now, we'll see

[Shteven]

Unless I am terribly mistaken I replaced Skitzer.

Well that would be useful to keep track of. My mistake

[Shteven]

Yeah, so I dropped the ball on my previous post twice, actually.

Timmers2001 was already replaced by the Fonz.

D'oh.

[Shteven]

Shteven, thank you for answering my post. I’m sorry about the length, and I understand some things may have confused you because of that. So permit me to clarify.

First, though, in the case of your first point. No, I am not stretching. Because when you say “it isn’t the whole story” you are in fact saying that somehow the vig killing a random townsperson on night 0 with no information isn’t just a terrible move. Now please explain how this would be different than the entire town randomly determining a lynch before any discussion on day one. In saying that the town would have more information after discussion you don’t prove that this is different. The vig would also have more information then. Which is why your point doesn’t ring true at all. If you wouldn’t approve a die enforced random lynch before discussion you also can’t approve of the vig killing with absolutely no information. If you want to try explaining this again, please do.

This one's a simple explaination: as I said before in my first response:

It is this reason why your extension of this principle to random lynches is wrong, and possibly misleading. There is information after day 1.

In other words, I'm not assuming the first post day 1 was someone rolling a dice and then everyone stuck to it. When I referred to a day 1 lynch, I was talking about a consensus based on the posts of that day. If you rolled a dice in the first post of the day and stuck to it, that would be pretty much the same. I don't see that as ever happening, whereas night 0 vig kills are entirely possible. Our lynch at the end of today will be a better kill than the vig's attack was. That's all.

Now you also use meta a couple of other times, but this is the clearest…let’s say contrast. And so I ask you again, Shteven, are you only nervous about meta-game defenses when someone else is using them?

I really thought this was clear. I have not used meta "a couple of other times"...the only time I've mentioned one is in conjunction with my stance on them. That they are a necessary evil. Other people are allowed to use them just as much as I do; which isn't often, but it happens.

All right. Let’s move on to bandwagoning.

You say that Jordan’s wagon was too steep for you. Your vote would have put him at L-2

When asked about your theory on bandwagons you say:

Early wagons at -2 are pressure.

Now this is a small contradiction, but I don’t think much of it either. If not for the much more huge contradiction I detail in what follows I wouldn’t have even posted it.

But this:

But if you outright tell the person it's just pressure, then there is no pressure. And that's just distracting.

Which you posted to Oman, followed by this:

I'd like to conduct a poll, for everyone: Should we delay a lynch if sammich gets to -1 or -2,

Is just insane. Now this post has much bigger things wrong with it than just this, but you’re proposing that the whole town tell Sammich that the bandwagon on him is just for pressure. Now you can play whatever games you like with this, say it wasn’t about pressure, it was about delaying for discussion, but the end result is even more damaging. No one who is told they are getting voted on just to put pressure on them really believes that. But any player assured by a poll of everyone in town that there should be a delay in lynching them if they get to -1 or -2 knows that there isn’t a player in town who will want the attention putting that last vote on them will get them. The people who are already convinced to that level that they’re guilty are already voting for them.

The two statements "early bandwagons at -2 are pressure" and that Jordan's wagon was too steep for me to join were NOT RELATED.

I'm not sure there's a logical proof being built here. I thought I responded to this already: I'm saying that -2 is enough to be pressure; that you shouldn't put somone at -1 just for pressure. -1 (in a game of this size) should mean you would be happy to see him hammered right away. It doesn't mean I think that every wagon should go to -2 to apply pressure. I felt that -3 was plenty of pressure for Jordan. Other players were applying the pressure; as I wasn't convinced of his guilt, I saw no reason to add pressure. If I thought he was scum, I would have been glad to move the wagon to -2...But I'm not going to join a wagon I don't believe in no matter how many votes it does or doesn't have. You're assuming I have to follow my own meta-game wagoning rules regardless of guilt. I don't join wagons on people I think may be town.

As far as the poll for Sammich, I agree it was poor play. The votes themselves are the poll, I should have just let them do the talking. What I was afraid of, though, was the day ending, and not Sammich being hung. Sammich being hung would have been fine by me.

You were also confused about the Jordan pressure comment I made. Well the only time you brought up that:

Oman's case is based on his admitted band wagoning. I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice.

was in the very same post where you said this:

What have I done that you think I deserve more suspicion than Jordan, who you've already claimed is the SK?

Are you still having a hard time seeing why this is scummy? And are you still having a hard time understanding why you never bringing up anything more about it after the pressure you were under from LML was gone seems a tad suspicious?

These two quotes are also unrelated. The first one is expressing my views on the players, the second is asking about LML's views. I'm not claiming any information in the second quote, I was trying to get LML to explain himself or make a further mistake.

LML claims to have positively ID'ed the Serial killer, is voting for Jordan, and then makes the backwards statement that other people should be more suspicious of me than Jordan? Jordan, the Serial Killer he was still voting for when telling people to vote for me? This bothered me, I thought it was scummy, and I was trying to get him to reveal himself further. This is the direct reason for why I never brought up anything more about LML's suspicion of me...I was waiting for the response. Still would be, if I thought he was still playing.

As for bringing up more about Oman or Jordan, I'll do a reread. At this point I'm really not sure about either of them, it's been too long.

By the way, my not commenting on this, which you described as a scummy tactic on my part, was because it had already been discussed. Which I said.

I do my best to avoid being scummy each game and I think you should too. Other than a few people saying I'm too defensive I think I do a pretty good job, we'll see

Now about Sammich, and I will make it very clear. When you tell him it’s only one vote. When you tell him it’s not personal. Quotes like this:

Seriously, this lack of response doesn't make him that much more likely to be mafia. And I am rather afraid we'll be mislynching town...he's just not giving me much to work with, to let him off the hook.

And certainly your “poll” might be interpreted as pushing a Sammich lynch while at the same time you were disowning it. Oh, and you were awfully sweet about your response on your post calling for more comments from those who hadn’t posted. So let’s quote that in context, okay?

I also find it especially odd that Sammich's post seems to have stopped all other debate. Doesn't anyone else have something to say?

Sammich's post was last tuesday 3:46 forum time. Since then (four days) the following players have not posted ONCE:

Now you say you were inviting them to post on Sammich. But in that first line you pretty clearly say “Sammich's post seems to have stopped all other debate.”. So if you weren't interested in talking about Jordan, because you were suspicious of Sammich, what would that other discussion have been?

And then you immediately post this:

I'm trying to avoid having tunnel vision and letting other players slide by. You're welcome to keep asking sammich repeatedly why he thinks I'm a power role (seriously I have no idea what a doctor tell would even look like) but when you get another "=\", I'm not going to call that productive dialog

So this argues that, in fact, you were trying to pose as though you were interested in going other places. Glad you’ve already answered my first post like this:

Allow me to answer your above question: I continued to post about Sammich because I felt Sammich was scummy and wanted to lynch him. Would you propose I talk about Jordan in order to get Sammich lynched instead?

Okay, you said that was a rhetorical question when you asked it. So why were you saying then that you wanted "other discussion" and that you wanted to avoid "tunneling" when (and thanks for confirming in your post above) you were tunneling on Sammich?

Wouldn’t you have wanted other players to keep talking about him, too?

Oh that’s right, you did. You said that in your first response to me, too:

My goal was not to get people to stop talking about Sammich. My goal was to get the same 3 people to stop talking about Sammich, and get a wider range of opinions.

And further:

Certainly, they're welcome to talk about any player, but Sammich held my main interest at the time, and yes, I'd like to hear more people talk about him.

Really, except for the sneaky little bit pointing out where Sammich's post was, those posts above don't appear to be saying that at all. But yes, I knew it was what you were doing, and thank you for confirming it. Makes those posts just awful curious, though.

There are a couple other bits we can go back to in your defense, but this has probably gone on long enough. I think I’ve put things close enough together now that you can see them. Thank you for any responses.

They're really pretty simple calls for lurkers to stop lurking. There was also a side dish of frustration over Sammich's refusal to post relevant content:

You're welcome to keep asking sammich repeatedly why he thinks I'm a power role (seriously I have no idea what a doctor tell would even look like) but when you get another "=\", I'm not going to call that productive dialog

What do you feel the posts were saying? If my message wasn't clear, let me know and I'll try to avoid misleading people in the future. I wanted to get more responses from people who hadn't been posting, and I thought I said that in a pretty direct way. I still consider him trying to out power roles as the clearest, black-and-white mistake made in this game. Perhaps it won't be enough to lynch him because too many people think it's so obvious it's just poor town play, but I'd be willing to see him lynched for it. One of the things that makes me feel it really was scummy is that he refused to talk about it. Claiming to not have anything to say about an analysis and actively lurking doesn't sound like townie who made a mistake to me. So on day 1, I think it's going to be our best shot, unless something very significant happens.

[Shteven]

Actually, Justin, my "meta-defense" that came out of "nowhere" was a response to this:

*munches popcorn* This is cooking along just fine.

Anything else to add?

Defensiveness =/= Scumtell

Over

defensiveness = Scumtell

Defending yourself obviously isn't a scumtell, otherwise any Mafia game would just go like this:

Player 1: You're scum because <so and so>
Player 2: No I'm not beacause <so and so>
Player 1: Well now I'm more sure you're scum because you're getting defensive.

Obviously, this wouldn't work.

When a player starts getting overdefensive, like snapping, all-caps and getting really defensive for not much of a reason, that's a scumtell.

And in addition, I don't consider that a meta-defense; as no one was attacking me. It was an explanation of my general play style. This is a pretty thin line though, because my answer would be the same, just no one was actually attacking me. It was a somewhat-game-theory response to Jordan's post.

[Shteven]

For those who would like to see this in more context, start reading from the top of page 3 down. My post is roughly in the middle of that page, and you'll see it follows the conversation. The last line of the same post that Justin keeps quoting was:

But don't worry, I'm not a big fan of CAPITAL LETTERS.

Which was a direct response to Jordan's:

When a player starts getting overdefensive, like snapping, all-caps and getting really defensive for not much of a reason, that's a scumtell.

I hadn't gone back to reread this until just now. Starting to wonder about Justin, honestly.

[Shteven]

I have addressed it several times, you just don't seem to be satisfied with the explanation. I am not attacking Oman, you are making far too big a deal out of this. My vote is for Sammich. Oman is suspicious, but not that much so.

[Shteven]

I thought I had already answered this one also. In fact, it was answered on page 6!

Anyways, I consider that to be a part of a conversation between me and LML, and since he's gone, it ended. The reason I mentioned myself/Jordan was because he voted for Jordan/Fos'ed me, so I was looking for more information about why he thought Jordan was more suspicious than me. Let me quote his post:

vote: Jordan

FoS: shteven

Tone thing is pretty big, but I'm more concerned about the way they both have tried to move suspicion back onto LML (although shteven not as much as Jordan). I don't understand how anything LML has done so far is anti-town.

I think you meant "although Jordan not as much as Shteven".

This post in particular was aimee's vote, but in pervious posts LML had done exactly the same voting strategy: voting for Jordan and FOS'ing me. I thought it was strange that 1) they mirrored each other's votes as well as FOS, and 2) that he was advocating voting for me over Jordan, when his vote was on Jordan. You'd have expected him to switch his vote, no?

I was trying to get an answer out him regarding his FOS/Vote being reversed. I didn't like the way he was rolefishing either:

I wouldn't be shocked that one of them (Jordan and Shteven) is the SK and the other is the Vig.

But I did not yet feel I had enough of a case to attack him directly. I was trying to get him to expand on it to see if it was a mistake/overconfident townie or if he was scum. I'd been curious about LML's play for some time, actually...See for example, this post of mine.

As for the exact time I mentioned that jordan may have been the "better choice" - This was back on page 6; and was mostly due to me not feeling that good about Oman anymore. Oman basically wagoned shamelessly, but doing so once on day one isn't really a solid case. I was curious about the other camp, which had picked up 5 people's votes (not all at the same time, though) so there were certainly several townies on it at some point. However, my primary concern was getting more information out of LML because I can't get a read on his page 1 attack alone.

As alluded to before, this was all explained on page 6:

I'm a bit curious what LML is trying to pull off here. He's already started the largest bandwagon so far, getting five votes for attacking one post (the response vote may also have helped fuel the wagon). He's now trying to start a brand new wagon? Granted wagons shift frequently at the start of the game, but it seems like LML may be trying to throw out anything that will stick at this point. What have I done that you think I deserve more suspicion than Jordan, who you've already claimed is the SK?

I'm aware that I may be playing into Aimee's concerns here, but I think it would be doing the town a disservice to be silent.

It has been pointed out that the last line is needlessly grandiose and I agree; it was silly to add.

In short, I was trying to hunt scum; I was suspect of LML but felt I needed more ammo before bringing the case (voting). This post serves as a pretty decent summary of the forming case in retrospect, although I wasn't designing it as such.

[Shteven]

Oh, in my eagerness to answer your second point, I skipped over the first point:

All right. Last try. If another player used a meta-defense about himself and then claimed it made him nervous when it was applied to someone else, what would it make you think of that player?

When other players use meta defenses I tend to ignore them

and

the attack made. I will generally say something about not wanting to really read 40 pages and just judge them on the current game. This has lead to me voting Albert B. Rampage/TCS in some other games. Not because they claimed a meta-defense, but because they acted scummy and I didn't feel like verifying it was a universal behavior for them.

[Shteven]

Shteven- Am I missing something? I hate to jump in on this but: Are you saying you never bother checking up on meta-defenses for other people and just go with a "what have you done for me now" ? If that's true, why didn't you just say so? Did I miss read you? Tell me I'm wrong, cause I have no real way to evaluate it.

You're more than welcome to jump in - I'd love to have more than two or three people playing this game! And yes, I rarely do check meta defenses. I haven't played that great a number of games here (I think around 4-5) and I'm not really keen on reading past games for possible insights into a single player. I would rather judge people based on this game itself. Is this an unusual stance? Is everyone else reading background games on the people they play with?

[Shteven]

I think I'll break this response up into a few smaller posts, I think it may be clearer.

I was curious about the other camp, which had picked up 5 people's votes (not all at the same time, though) so there were certainly several townies on it at some point.

…has managed to displace the position you have already defended in your post 508 in answer to me:

I felt that -3 was plenty of pressure for Jordan. Other players were applying the pressure; as I wasn't convinced of his guilt, I saw no reason to add pressure. If I thought he was scum, I would have been glad to move the wagon to -2...But I'm not going to join a wagon I don't believe in no matter how many votes it does or doesn't have.

I see these two quotes as parts of a single perfectly cohesive position. A wagon that is voted for by 5 people at some point (only 3 at that point were still voting for him) means there's some town interest in the person. That doesn't prove he's scum. It means "pay attention to this wagon"...it doesn't mean "I trust this wagon completely". I was watching it, trying to see how Jordan was reacting, and considering him as being worthy of more attention. In the end, not much came of it, however. Sammich trying to out power roles took precedence. This is why I was starting to wonder if I should have been on Jordan; in the end, I didn't feel there was much there. That should answer the other quote you've mentioned a few times:

Oman's case is based on his admitted band wagoning. I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice.

In hindsight, that does throw a bit more suspicion on him than he was due, but not all that much more. He's still here, doing fine. I dropped it soon after, as others (Sammich) took his place.

That's all there really is to it. I realize by now that you're a very technical player, and you are definitely trying to distill my words to pure logic. I admire the effort, but I think you're missing how simple it is. I'm not putting quite that much thought into the exact wording of every post. Try to see the forest instead of the trees.

[Shteven]

As far as ignoring metas, you aren't really on the same page as me as what a meta attack would be.

Let's say player A is acting fairly normal, townish. Player B says that player A is acting strangely, and read game 45, 42, and 37 and you'll see he's clearly never acted like this and those games he was town so he's got to be scum in this game.

He's not getting anywhere with me on that attack.

Let's say our good friend player A is acting scummily. He says, hey wait, I act like this all the time. Check out game 33 and 37 where I was lynched as a townie for doing exactly this!

He's getting lynched a third time if I have anything to do with it

So, ignoring metas (attacks and defenses) can easily lead to lynching someone. It's just going to be based on this game, and not another one.

[Shteven]

And finally, I'm sorry, but OMGUS!

More seriously; you seem far too eager to lynch me. It seems like you're arguing for the sake of argument. Most of our more recent posts are much more game-theory than game-content. Narrowing in on a single player without ever commenting on the vast majority of the game is a great way to hide being scum. We have nothing to go on with your connections to any other players besides myself and TylerJ.

So, two tasks:

1) I'd like you to pick three players besides myself and Tyler, and give us a some thoughts on their play. Hopefully they'll see reason to respond, because I'm sure there's more than two players in this game. Feel free to do more than three, but that should be enough.

2) Most of what you've gone back and forth are logical points, trying to point out contradictions. Contradictions are fine and often scum tells, but not necessarily. Especially at the level that you're going over my posts, I'd like to you make the case that these things are actually making me scum, and not simply wrong (I'm not claiming I am wrong, mind you).

I'm not going to vote for you. But it is worth a

FOS: Justin

.

[Shteven]

Welcome CornerMan! Glad to see a replacement, I had a bunch of questions pending for LML, which I'm sure you'll get to in time. Some short things now:

I would agree that waiting until you've finished or at least get through more than half of the thread is a good idea before voting, but I don't think jordan is in all that much risk of dying.

Try using the actual quote tags for doing quotes, it is much clearer. Be sure to preview if you haven't used them before. Just enclose the quote in (quote) and (/quote) but use [] instead of ().

And finally, bonus points for using pseudo code in your post For anyone not familiar with it, it says "If we discuss [the vig role] we will lynch scum, otherwise we will mislynch". I don't think that the vig role would be that critical, but that's the translation for what it's worth. Obviously discussion in general is our best weapon

[Shteven]

but I've never forgotten a function I wrote myself, though

Well now I know you're lying

[Shteven]

God I hope we don't have too many of those long-posts-are-scummy people in this game! Seriously though, I think unclear/misleading/vague posts are scummy. And it can be hard to be clear in a huge wall of text if readers lose interest in it, but I think it takes a bit more than a word count function to make the claim someone's trying to be difficult to understand.

[Shteven]

Shteven's Maybe-one-of-these-days-I'll-be-a-real-mod-mommy Vote Count!

Sammich- 5 (SSF, JordanA24, Aimee, ooba, Shteven)
Oman- 3 (AlyG, Manaspyrte, TylerJ)
CornerMan(LML) - 2 (TylerJ, CKD)
Laptop Gun- 1 (White)
Jordan - 1 (CornerMan)
TylerJ - 1 (Oman)
Shteven - 1 (Justin Playfair)

17 alive; 9 to lynch.

Not Voting: Opposed Force, Sammich, LaptopGun, The Fonz, ooba

In doing this vote count it occured to me that I am still voting for Oman. I'd much rather rest it on Sammich, where I thought it had already been, so

Vote: Sammich

. This vote is already reflected in the vote count.

Let me know if I made any errors.

[Shteven]

It would probably be wise to point out that TylerJ does not in fact have a double voting power... Disregard the above count. Ooba is also not simultaneously voting for sammich and not voting.

Sammich- 5 (SSF, JordanA24, Aimee, ooba, Shteven)
Oman- 2 (AlyG, Manaspyrte)
CornerMan(LML) - 2 (TylerJ, CKD)
Laptop Gun- 1 (White)
Jordan - 1 (CornerMan)
TylerJ - 1 (Oman)
Shteven - 1 (Justin Playfair)

17 alive; 9 to lynch.

Not Voting: Opposed Force, Sammich, LaptopGun, The Fonz

Hopefully this time that adds up to 17 votes instead of 19.

[Shteven]

I must say I like Justin's reads on LaptopGun/Oman/Sammich. All of them.

He's definitely raised my suspicions on LTG, although the other two I was already wary of. When I first voted Sammich, it was mostly just because I wanted him to defend his attempt to out power roles. If he had actually done so, I probably would have removed the vote. Note to Oman: notice I didn't mention this explicitly in the thread at the time! But he's never once tried to explain himself on anything since then, and this is why I'm still voting him, and at this point it would take something beyond a short defense to change my mind.

[Shteven]

@LTG
If the mafia are the only ones willing to attack people who are suspicious, mafia (the game) would be unwinnable (for the town).

[Shteven]

I'm not expecting much to happen for the next day or two (or three). Hopefully the modkill question will be answered soon.

[Shteven]

Checking in.

I agree with the two above posts on LML; I had been trying to ask him some questions, but due to inactivity, never got responses, and so my case against him stalled. Glad to see it picked up, and we'll see what happens regarding him and any possible modkills.

[Shteven]

Few short things:

1) Khel, thanks for trying. You couldn't save it, but you didn't cause the initial problems either, so we'll all just move on.

2) Is it too late to get some theory discussion going here? Something very, VERY interesting happened to me in this game.

Shteven- His play makes me think of him as a doc.

Sammich, if you're still around, I'd love a reply. What tipped you off? Why did you think mentioning it was a good idea? If you haven't guessed, he's absolutely correct. I was a doctor; I protected no one N0 due to being an idiot and forgetting I had the night action.

Did anyone else pick up on this, before he mentioned it? Did you agree with him after it? Looking to see if I can learn something from this or if it was mostly just dumb luck.

On another note, I'm a bit surprised we had 2 cops and 2 doctors and 1 vig. Wow. Probably no masons.

[Shteven]

P.S. Who was the vig?

[Shteven]

Wow. I was right? On day 1? Sammich really was scum? That never happens. Never!

The funny part is, I was probably only so hung up over because he was right. If he called me vig I may have let him get away with it!