Mafia 72: Peril in Panama - Game over!

[JordanA24]

I think I'm beginning to see why some people hate the random voting that starts off every game.

When townies start doing joking uber-scummy posts, nothing can really be learned from it. And if you can't learn anything from it then it's useless.

I'm not sure I like how you said townies. I think this is a good place to put an early vote.

Vote: Unright

[JordanA24]

Albert B. Rampage is right. JordanA24's suspicion and vote were his own and were first. He wasn't latching onto anyone else's train of thought or jumping on any bandwagons.

really?

how do

you

know the jokes are coming from townies?..

then,

I'm not sure I like how you said townies. I think this is a good place to put an early vote.

Vote: Unright

Seems pretty close to me...I think Jordan was agreeing with me.

Why are you putting words into ABR's mouth? ABR didnt say that Jordan's suspicions was his own, he only said Jordan didnt bandwagon...

It is pretty close, though I actually did think of my reasons to suspect Unright when I saw that post, looks like CKD got there first though.

I'm fine with lynching any of the self-voters on day one.

This is a horrible post. Firstly, actually considering lynching someone this early is generally a bad idea, at the moment, we're trying to get reactions off people to try and judge people's scumminess. Trying to rush the game like this only favours the scum.

Also, self-voting is a very weak reason for lynching someone, even considering doing so is scummy.

Unvote Vote: DP

[JordanA24]

Also, self-voting is a very weak reason for lynching someone, even considering doing so is scummy.

Are there any conditions under which it's reasonable for town to vote for themselves?

It's not particularly helpful, but it hardly deserves a lynching.

[JordanA24]

Jordan is stretching like a motherfucker. It is *NEVER* too early to be serious about lynching. Just because DP is willing to lynch a self-voter does not mean that he's trying rush the day, nor does it mean that he's willing to let everyone blindly bandwagon without giving their own opinions. You're bullshitting us this early? Nice try.

Unvote, Vote: Jordan

FoS: ABR

for following him.

So, you'd lynch someone because they voted themselves in the random voting stage?

[JordanA24]

DP, that analysis was worryingly broad, you said that half of the players are "scummy".

[JordanA24]

Why? I think it would be more helpful if you split the scummy catagory, like to "Slightly scummy" and "Scummy" or something similar.

[JordanA24]

ABR's playing pretty much like he normally does.

[JordanA24]

I'll give ABR the benefit of the doubt for now, like BM, so no we go:

Unvote Albert B. Rampage
Vote JordanA24

I get a distinct feeling of OMGUS from that vote, since, from your earlier player-by-player, if you were going by that, I can see at least 3 people who are scummier than me according to that:

3. Gage
Second self-voter. I made clear what I think of that. Post 49 sets off my scumdar by its phrasing.

5. Nekka-Lucifer
First self-voter. I made clear what I think of that.

11. curiouskarmadog
Post 36 is as scummy as they come.

[JordanA24]

I thought you said that self-voting was a lynchable offense.

[JordanA24]

Either way I think it was a newbie mistake. Whether is it is scum or town, remains to be seen.

But Gage is not a newbie is he. He's very experienced on another site he claims.

The claim, I suppose I believe it for now, but I'm very wary of him, masons can be very believable if they aren't lynched, and some of his posts were really scummy, the drawn out threats to claim particularly. The only problem I can see with scum fakeclaiming mason is that if one dies, they both go. So, I'm not sure.

FOS: Gage

[JordanA24]

A bunch of SA kids came over a couple of weeks ago, but most have departed..could be left over from that.

Yep, thank God, they sure lived up to their name.

[JordanA24]

I claimed to make the game more interesting. 'Twas a little boring. Nothing like someone claiming a role to stir the pot.

*sigh*

Tip for future games:

NEVER EVER CLAIM UNLESS YOU HAVE A DAMN GOOD REASON, LIKE BEING AT LYNCH -2/-1. ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE A POWER ROLE.

Of course, I suspect I'm now the favorite to lynch. If need be, I can roleclaim, because it isn't like I'm terribly important. There is also one person who can back me up, but I certainly am not going to roleclaim for them. If and when I roleclaim, they can back me up if they see fit.

Hang on. Did you just claim Mason or did you just say that you could be proven by the cop?

That "1 person who might not back me up" stuff sounds like he's Mason, but his Mason partner (he specified that there is only one) won't confirm his claim, although that is the only "power" that two Masons have.

Actualy, it was my intent to start by apologizing for submarrining. But, since my only post inluded a vote on Gage, more power to for cuting down on spam.

does this mean you believe the claim or not?

I most certanly do not. If one Mason is about to be lynched, the other one will claim to prevent the lynching of a pro-town. Isn't that the whole point of the "Mason" role? Gage's claim goes against logic. Thus, it must be false. My vote stays on him.

This logic works unless you have a newbie like Gage, who doesn't really know the etiquette and unwritten rules of Mafia, such as not claiming as Mason unless really necessary.

My mason mate is actually bussing now. I'll reveal him (or he will reveal himself) only if necessary.

As if you've not done enough damage already. Why on Earth did you say this??

What are your thoughts on everyone BM ?

I think Unright, Jordan and DP are scummy. Unright most of all though.

Why me?

Why am I always paired with idiots ? I'm mason, hiii

*Bangs head on keyboard*

Why ruin the Unright trap?

I think I'll just quit posting. Apparently I'm a moron.

This doesn't help anything, if you're not playing very well, try and improve rather than give up. Just giving up means that we'll have to get a replacement in that will have to reread, and may not think the right people are scum, while you might.

I think I'll just quit posting. Apparently I'm a moron.

The sooner you realize it the sooner you can do something to change it.

else you might end up like Albert.

Unvote, Vote: Gage

btw. Giving up scumtell, and licence to lurk, rolled into one.

BM

OK, so Gage hasn't played very well, but why are you voting for a claimed mason, especially since his partner has also claimed?

Yes, because independent thinking will get us no-where...

Sometimes, if the reasons good enough, other players can validly use that reasoning for their vote as well, as long as they don't do it too often, that would be scummy. Besides, Gage is a newbie, so I'd cut him a little slack.

[JordanA24]

Vote: Battle Mage

Why are you voting a claimed mason?

[JordanA24]

EBWOP:

Unvote Vote: Battle Mage

[JordanA24]

BM, claim.

Unvote

We do not need any more claims at this stage.

Vote: ABR

[JordanA24]

I think we also do not need to lynch a claimed mason at this stage.

Well, that was a fuck up and a half.

Unvote

[JordanA24]

rofl- IRONY. :p

Anyway as it looks like i'm on borrowed time, i guess the least i can do is to read through and post something decent. Will do that within the next hour or so.
At least in death i might be able to provide something useful for the town.

BM

You giving up already bro?

[JordanA24]

Claim before we kill you.

I stand by my previous point, having 3 people claim so early is bad for the town.

[JordanA24]

Not when you're about to kill one of them.

So, you're saying that no matter what BM claims, you'll want him lynched?

[JordanA24]

Plus it ensures we have a Doc full stop.

I don't know if I'm looking too much into the flavour of this game, but I wouldn't be too surprised, judging that this game is set in Panama, which is not a very developed country, that we might not have a fully functioning doc. We might have something similar to a Faith Healer (a 50% effective doc) or something like that.

[JordanA24]

I'm pretty out of touch with this game, so I think it's time for a PbP analysis.

I'm going to do this 3 players at a time (just seems like a convenient number).

ABR

: Claimed Mason, no need for any suspicion on him yet.

BM

: Votehopped like crazy in the beginning, 4 different votes in the first 4 days! And the vote on me was for poor reasoning IMO, agreeing with someone (or actually appearing to, as in my case) is not a scumtell. And a vote is not a bandwagon. And then he went and voted the person I voted for. And calling someone right is not "buddying up", and does not make them "blatent scum".

He then has an argument with ABR which just clutters up the thread, though this probably isn't scummy, since these two have a history, but I say try to not let it happen again, since it just makes stuff harder to find.

He then proceeds to vote for Gage, the claimed mason

twice

, which he puts down to being in so many games at once, and it's true, he was. For now, I'm willing to put these down as genuine mistakes, but it definatly isn't a town tell either, it's a nulltell.

I like his PBPA's, though I'm slightly wary that he's doing them to make up for his Gage votes, though this is probably too paranoid, and it's a townie's job to be useful and find scum.

His protown opinion of MOS seems weird to me, since he could just be finding him protown because he knew that BM would react like that if he called him protown. It seems very WIFOMy to me, I thought BM would notice this.

Conclusion

: A bit scummy

CKD

: For obvious reasons, I agree with his vote on Unright. Actaully, I agree with quite a lot of what he says. Up until this point:

I confirm my vote on BM

Why? As I said before, BM voting for Gage twice is a nulltell. ABR putting BM at -1 and asking for a claim for it was really stupid, especially the claim part.

Also, why the sudden change of opinion on BM in this post?

I will except that it could be a null tell for now...

unvote BM

going to reread again when I have a moment and see where to go now.

And in your very next post, you say this:

Alright

minor FoS: ckd

. I think he was opportunistic in jumping on BM, don't like post 185.
I was considering FoSing Nekka for lack of meaningful content, but then I saw he's planning to come to a decision soon, so I'll leave that for now.
Some of Jordan's first few posts were a bit scummy, mostly his overreaction towards DP in #2 (I'm searching posts by user here), but he seemed better later on.
If non-contributers are still hanging around (richman, Kakeng, and to a lesser extent mandalorian) you should post like now. From mandalorian's few posts I get a townish vibe, Kakeng hasn't said much but the no lynch vote is bad.
BM, DP, MoS all seem ok to me from a skim read, ABR and Gage claimed masons iirc.
So now I'll get around to looking at Unright and Porochaz a bit closer, didn't get much from them on first read.

what about BM seems ok to you?

These seem pretty contradictory to me.

Conclusion

: Neutral, for now.

[JordanA24]

I like his PBPA's, though I'm slightly wary that he's doing them to make up for his Gage votes

You mean like you are now?

Nope, I'm badly out of the game atm, and I'm trying to get back into it.

His protown opinion of MOS seems weird to me, since he could just be finding him protown because he knew that BM would react like that if he called him protown. It seems very WIFOMy to me, I thought BM would notice this.

If i know the slightest thing about MoS, its that he doesnt give 2 shits whether i am suspicious of him or not. The fact is, so far his play has been consistent with protown MoS-something which we dont see very often. He has nothing to gain by defending me, which makes me think it might be genuine.

BM

He has your support and you calling him protown to gain, and if he's scum, anyone saying he's protown is important.

[JordanA24]

Dragon Phoenix

: His "selfvote=scum, we must lynch them" tactic at the start was stupid, and pretty scummy as well, selfvote is a complete nulltell IMO, I really didn't like how he said "I'd be happy to see one of the self-voters swing at the end of the day". Neither do I like how he kept reinterating the point.

Post 90 wasn't too great IMO either, way too many people in the scum catagory.

This just looked like an OMGUS to me:

I'll give ABR the benefit of the doubt for now, like BM, so no we go:

Unvote Albert B. Rampage
Vote JordanA24

I have a hard time believing that he's a real mason claiming with hardly any pressure.

I have a hard time believing that he's scum claming with hardly any pressure (although 2 player mason group is one of the safest claim for scum in a game this size).

I have a hard time trying to understand what all this blue and green gobbledigok is about.

In sum, Cage gives me a headache.

This post offers no clue as to where he stands on the claims, fencesitting=scummy.

The he votes Gage, and unvotes him when ABR claims Gage's buddy, deciding to put his vote straight back on me. He then unvotes me when I "at last make a decent post". He says this in the same post:

There are several people now that I would not mind see swinging by the end of the day, because their absence would probably improve the overall game, and moreover they have a good chance of being scum as well. I will wait to see what the prodded ones come up with first.

I'd have much preferred it if he had listed the people he wouldn't mind swinging at the end of the day, rather than waiting for the lurkers to post, in that time, someone could make a scummy post, which could result in a bandwagon, which he could easily jump on, saying "He was one of the people I wanted to swing in Post 202.

He finally makes what looks like a protown post in Post 215, deciding to support BM rather than jump on his wagon.

Vote curiouskarmadog

The scummiest of the lot so far. Let's get some action.

Why?

Conclusion

: Scummy, may well be voting you by the end of this analysis.

Gage

: Despite poor play, he's a pretty likely mason right now, and is protown for now.

Kakeng

: Has made 3 posts, 1 of which looks pretty scummy to me.

Vote: No lynch

This should speed up the real discussion.

No no NO! You do NOT No lynch on Day 1, nor even suggest it, it is a sin punishable by hundreds of scummy points.

His last post in this game is his last post onsite, and that was over a week ago, will probably need replacing.

Conclusion

: Pretty scummy, his replacement is well worth looking at.

mandalorian

:

Of course, I suspect I'm now the favorite to lynch. If need be, I can roleclaim, because it isn't like I'm terribly important. There is also one person who can back me up, but I certainly am not going to roleclaim for them. If and when I roleclaim, they can back me up if they see fit.

Hang on. Did you just claim Mason or did you just say that you could be proven by the cop?

That "1 person who might not back me up" stuff sounds like he's Mason, but his Mason partner (he specified that there is only one) won't confirm his claim, although that is the only "power" that two Masons have.

Actualy, it was my intent to start by apologizing for submarrining. But, since my only post inluded a vote on Gage, more power to for cuting down on spam.

You had been absent for over a week, the shortness of this post is quite dissapointing considering that.

Apart from that, I can't really find anything too scummy about you.

Conclusion

: Seems to be quite protown so far IMO.

[JordanA24]

I do contest that. In my book this is a perfectly valid tactic for day one and far superior to this random dice nonsense that has become so popular.

Quick question: If someone random voted using a dice, and the dice told them to vote for themselves, and they obliged, would you call that stupid or scummy?

[JordanA24]

MOS

: Looking at his posts, quite a lot of them, even after the random voting stage, has been almost useless to me. That or asking people to explain things, which, on it's own in posts, isn't that bad, but he hasn't really scumhunted that much IMO, or contributed his opinion to the game in general.

These are the only posts where he actually posts his opinion are these:

Jordan is stretching like a motherfucker. It is *NEVER* too early to be serious about lynching. Just because DP is willing to lynch a self-voter does not mean that he's trying rush the day, nor does it mean that he's willing to let everyone blindly bandwagon without giving their own opinions. You're bullshitting us this early? Nice try.

Unvote, Vote: Jordan

FoS: ABR

for following him.

No, but I'm not DP. He has an established meta for hating self-voters. It's a nulltell, therefore you are stretching to try and make it seem like a scumtell.

I think both of these were pretty strong, I've never played with DP before, so how was I to know that was his playstyle?

BM is probably protown. Only an idiot would try to lynch him at this point. *checks VC* Oh yeah...

Thinking BM is scum based on those votes is a classic case of WIFOM overuse. In addition, I *do* think that BM would try a bit harder to control what he says as scum. At best, if you don't consider it a town tell, no one should consider it any more than a null tell. If it's a null tell, it should be ignored, so people should not be voting him. If you consider it a town tell, you should also not be voting him. Therefore, I see no logical reason for anyone to vote him based on the mason votes. I think it's pretty dumb to do otherwise.

These two posts are fair enough, but only 4 meaningful posts in a 13 page game and out of 16 total posts is pretty poor form.

Conclusion

: Needs to pick up the content of his posts, or I may be voting him.

Nekka-Lucifer

: Hmm, a few scummy posts here and there, such as these:

Yes. That's a good scum catching tactic...

Yes, because independent thinking will get us no-where...

Cut him a bit of slack, he is a newbie after all, give him some helpful advice that could help him rather than throw a sarcastic comment at him. That's not going to encourage him to participate, is it?

And this:

BM

I believe you have only analysed 6 people. This is a reminder. Next time will be a vote.

How is only analysing 6 people worthy of a vote? Especially if you said this in your last post:

I smell a jester coming from BM which is incredibally ironic. *Looks to see where my vote lies*

And I've only done a half job so far in my analysis, why did I escape without being threatened with a vote?

Apart from this however, there isn't really anything which strikes my scumdar, and some of his posts give me a gut protown feel.

But that last post I highlighted does give me cause for concern, I'd appreciate if you explained it.

Conclusion

: Reasonably protown, pending his explaination to that post.

pete d/Sir Tornado

: Sir T made one post, which was a random vote.

pete d's first post seemed suspiciously indecisive in terms of votes/FOS's, one minor FOS after reading 10 and a half pages seems woefully lacking to me.

In his next post, he voted Nekka for the post I highlighted as scummy in the above analysis (the one where he threatened BM with a vote). Seems alright, until I got to

It's another nothing post.

I don't agree with this point at all, Nekka has contributed a decent amount to the game IMO, saying he hasn't feels like you're streching for reasons to back up your vote.

In his next post, he FOS's Nekka and BM (taking the middle road in their argument), only they're not FOS's, they are "Minor FOS"'s and "Sort of FOS"'s. What's wrong with a simple FOS, or are you worried that you might get into an argument that results in votes on you and you being put in centre stage (i.e: Something that scums fear)

And finally, why is Nekka asking whether BM has finished his analysis yet worthy of a vote at all?

Conclusion

: Seems scummy so far, needs to pick up his act, or he may be voted.

I'll do the last 3 hopefully tomorrow, depending on how much coursework I have to do for school.

[JordanA24]

Porochaz

:

K Im not sure I can post anything because I dont actually feel theres enough of a read on people yet. Will post when I have more time/when I see something scummy. (will have more time on Monday.)

What made you post this?

Up until the 11th November, he's wasn't very scummy at all IMO (if I had to complain, I'd say he kept out of the spotlight a bit), and was contributing, but after that, there is no content in his posts whatsoever. But if he rectifies this, I have no reason to find Poroshaz scummy yet.

Conclusion

: Kinda protown

Richman99

: 2 posts, 0 content, 1 replacement required.

Conclsuion

: No read.

Unright

: His "townies making jokes" post still strikes me as a slip, I'm not that convinced by his cover-up post at all.

Joking about produces responses. No responses means no info.

I didn't say it didn't produce responses. I said it didn't produce useful responses.

WTH? The joking about/random vote phase gets the game started. In there, someone says something, someone disagrees and responds, and kaboom! You have a topic to discuss. Saying the joking stage doesn't do anything useful is ludicrous.

Joking about produces responses. No responses means no info.

I didn't say it didn't produce responses. I said it didn't produce useful responses.

it produced this thread of conversation...I, too, didnt like your use of the word "townies", almost implies you know what everyone joking were townies..slip up, this early? Hard to tell....lets move to the pressure stage.

what was your motivation behind letting us know you didnt like the random vote (joking) stage?

You answered your own question for me. I wanted to bring an abrupt end to the joking stage and move the game into the main stage. Jokey self-votes and meta-gaming votes are impossible to analyze. So now that we've all gotten it out of our system, let's actually begin playing this game.

Additionally, I realize that this move makes me a lightning rod for votes. That's fine. I've got no reason to shy away from them and it invites people to judge others on who is using good logic and who isn't.

What's wrong with just letting the game run it's natural course? At some point, someone will post a contraversial comment, possibly a scum, why did you decide to artificially end the random vote stage without us getting anything useful out of it (if you're town)

Well I guess you did indeed end the random (joke) stage....since this stage bothers you, how do you normally start a game? Attack the random (joke) vote stage? If that stage wasnt there, what would you do?

I didn't say that I had a better plan or even that I have a different style. I said I realized why some people don't like it.

Look at posts 19-23. Nekka-Lucifer votes for himself, so Albert B. Rampage and Dragon Phoenix vote for Nekka (with DP listing his reason in quasi-jest(?)), then Battle Mage votes for Dragon Phoenix.

What can be learned from that sequence of events? Absolutely nothing. It's obvious that the voting isn't random, but is it serious? Who knows. The one thing I know is that confusion, chaos, and sarcasm will always help scum more than town. So if I can bring the random (joke) stage to a quick end, then I've eliminated a scum-advantage.

It's not true that nothing can be learnt from that series of events, BM jumping on Nekka's wagon, and then voting DP for voting Nekka, which is what he just did, kinda says to me that BM may have double standars, or that Nekka and BM may be scum-partners, BM was voting Nekka to distance, but as soon as a better target came up, DP, he voted him. BM will still be credited as voting Nekka at some point, but it wasn't for very long at all. The random vote stage gets the game started, trying to deny it is like trying to deny that the Earth exists.

First of all, saying "townies" is not a scumtell. However, it was an open invitation to prod, so both CKD and Jordan were justified in questioning me and look townie for doing so.

So, saying "townies" is not a scumtell, but questioning someone saying it is not scummy either. How does that work?

I didn't agree with him keeping his vote on Gage, but, tbh, I think it's a pretty big towntell, I believe that a scum would have taken his vote right off a claimed mason, because they're trying to be careful, and not look like they're voting for townies, since a scum knows who's scum, assuming that Gage is infact a mason, then scum would know that Gage is a mason, and that his partner will clear him soon, so a scum, trying to look as townie as possible, will almost certainly take their vote off Gage.

I don't find anything too scummy in any posts after this.

Conclusion

: I think he's protown, because of him keeping his vote on Gage, but I still want him to answer my questions.

pete d's first post seemed suspiciously indecisive in terms of votes/FOS's, one minor FOS after reading 10 and a half pages seems woefully lacking to me.

Yeah, I'm finding it hard to get a strong read on anyone at the moment. Nobody has done anything extremely scummy yet, I think a minor FoS was appropriate in the situation

Sorry, but I simply can't believe you can't get a stong read on anyone in 10 pages, either you're not trying or you're trying not to get on the wrong side of anyone.

In his next post, he voted Nekka for the post I highlighted as scummy in the above analysis (the one where he threatened BM with a vote). Seems alright, until I got to

pete d wrote:
It's another nothing post.

I don't agree with this point at all, Nekka has contributed a decent amount to the game IMO, saying he hasn't feels like you're streching for reasons to back up your vote.

Read over Nekka's posts. I maintain that while Nekka has posted a fair bit, he hasn't really given much helpful contributions or suspicions (except for BM)

Hang on, I have read through Nekka's posts, and in fact, you're right, he hasn't given many suspicions at all, well spotted actually.

FOS: Nekka

I want a list of your top 3 suspects Nekka. I do believe you haven't responded to the question I asked in my PBPA either.

In his next post, he FOS's Nekka and BM (taking the middle road in their argument), only they're not FOS's, they are "Minor FOS"'s and "Sort of FOS"'s. What's wrong with a simple FOS, or are you worried that you might get into an argument that results in votes on you and you being put in centre stage (i.e: Something that scums fear).

Not really, like I said, I'm not getting a real strong read from anyone at the moment

Already said what I think of this.

And finally, why is Nekka asking whether BM has finished his analysis yet worthy of a vote at all?

It felt to me like he was trying to throw suspicion on BM. He didn't directly ask BM, he asked everyone, so it felt like a loaded question. Also, I had previously put on an FoS with reasons.

Not really, he might just be asking how far BM is into his analysis.

It definatly isn't worthy of a vote IMO.

If it makes you feel better, I'd vote for CKD or Nekka atm, with BM one level down if you understand what I'm saying.

This backing down and trying to appease me does not look good for you pete.

why

why not?

This is not a good response MOS, I;m going to ask you upfront, why are you voting me, and why is ABR voting me a good thing?

After analysing everyone, my vote will go to one of MOS, Nekka and pete, depending on how they respond to my questions.