Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Setael]

I'll post after I've read the thread - should be later today.

[Setael]

Finally finished my read. First, a question for the Mod:

Can you please edit excessive cursing so that I don't have to keep reading it when I reread? I'd really appreciate it!

Now, my notes:

Niv's post 75 – don't really see anything that would make simenon look scummy. Seems the mason group were all told one of them is not to be trusted, however it was worded. I don't see what in Niv's reason for claiming is solid enough to warrant a mason outing two of their number.

Zoneace Post 125
Im ndone playing, i won't be answering anymore questions. Its clear no matter what I say you all are gonna lynch me with your ZERO LOGIC so why try? This 5 person mason claim could EASILY be the mafia's way to safe claim, or it could really be there, I don't know and I don't care. So getting the others to confirm you won't do anything to sway me. Not to mention it would be a TERRIBLE idea if in infact you aren't mafia. The town having more people reveal themselves on day one is stupid, but since I've recieved votes for god only knows what reason, I don't expect to town to do the smart thing.

Lemming's 126 & 129 look opportunistic

ckillor wrote:
i have a feeling that Niv and Lemming are mafia. lemming was starting to gain votes from all his bandwagon hopping, and i think that Niv called out simenon to pull pressure off his scum buddy.
i think its probably easier for someone to say that i told them this and they never responded, and have the other person who never actually received anything look scummy.

so, Vote Niv
Ckillor and lemming poss. mafia together

Zorg's 133 looks very pro-Town

Flare's 135 looks opportunistic

Toaster's 142 just looks scummy because there's no concrete reason to think Simenon is a scum mason. Also, it seems ridiculous to think Simenon and Zoneace could be scum buddies after Zoneace's OMGUS vote.

Post 148 Ether votes Simenon and says he'd approve outing another mason to clear it up. Looks scummy to me based on the fact that there is no good reason to think sim is scum.

Post 155 [quote simenon] I send Niv a pm saying that one of us may be scum and we shouldn't talk that much.
*why would you think you shouldn't talk much?

Post 160 Flare points out that Toaster's scum list in 142 made no sense
Simenon (6) -- Niv, Carrotcake, Mastermind of Sin, ZONEACE, Toaster Strudel, Ether
ZONEACE (5) -- Simenon, Flare, Yamahako, Lemming1607, KaleiÐoscøpe
*Likely a few scum on these 2 bandwagons.

Post 176 lemming opportunistically pushing the zoneace wagon

Post 190 Yamahako – scummy

221 – Flare thinks niv might be scum

230 probably the most pro-Town, content-filled post I've seen from JDodge. That's not saying much, though.

236 – lemming points out that he had presented a case against zoneace; adds to it

233 – flare calls lemming out for seemingly agreeing with the zoneace case without contributing

248 – flare's reaction to getting 4 votes in 5 posts – sounds Town, especially his questions for JDodge

249 – Toaster Streudal points out that MoS seems to be setting up excuses for Flare mislynch

Post 254 – beastly trying to look like he's not lurking without actually posting content

Post 259 – Zorg opportunistically votes Zoneace, states suspicion on Simenon, Carrot cake and ToasterStreudel

261 – zorg explains that hmrox wagon could've been distracting from Flameaxe wagon

264 – fonz disagrees, saying wagon was all random votes

279 –scum hunting from zorg

290 – Sir Tornado calls out zoneace for saying he believes Simenon over Niv and FOSing both of them without giving reason. Points out that zoneace's fos's on simenon, niv and lemming all make him look noncommittal

293 kaleidoscope states for the 2nd or 3rd time that he thinks zoneace should be lynched for being unhelpful; kaleiodoscope's next several posts are one liners meant to rile the town up against zoneace

**332 Beastly points out that zoneace is an easy target; votes toasterstreudel without giving a reason

341 zorg says MOS's " staunch defense of Zoneace just seems really jumpy", wonders if he's always like this, votes him

357 lemming gives some bad reasons to vote zoneace. Says zoneace is making scum tells, but doesn't point any out.

359 Flare agrees with Zorg's points against MOS, votes MOS

362 Toaster Streudel gives MOS suspicions in response to Beastly saying he doesn't like her jab at him and calls her inactive and unhelpful

367 MoS defends himself – sounds pretty Town

368 zeppo realizes his zoneace vote is unfounded and unvotes

373 zoneace finally stops antagonizing and posts some content

***375 zeppo – imo townies always have something to add. Scum hang back until they can add something that won't look suspicious.

381 ergo points out that flare and zorg "jumped on the MoS wagon while openly admitting that they needed to re-read him to be sure"

***386 kaleidoscope votes Celtic without giving a reason

398 zorg posts against MOS

Several more one liner contentless posts from kaleidoscope

402 MOS defends against zorg

405 lemming looks scummy here

411 white votes yamahako for being an active lurker but totally ignores kaleidoscope?

424 Niv seems scummy for the first time because his reasons for voting White don't make sense to me

425 – Ether gives better reasons for being suspicious of White; Ether actively scum hunting

430 Aimee scum hunting. I find it odd that after way more content about zorg, she votes Yamahako

441 zorg's pretty much admits that his arguments against MOS are hollow

457 zeppo points out Yamahako's not so impressive voting pattern

467 White finally notices kaleidoscope's active lurking, but doesn't take it nearly as seriously as he did with yamahako in post 411

476 erg0 calls all the zoneace back and forth a smokescreen – very pro-Town to try to get people to move away from this distraction

484 Lemming does the exact opposite and seems to make every effort to keep the only discussion focused on zoneace. Says zoneace and MOS aligned and probably scum. Is doing the opposite of erg0's suggestion

494 It's always funny when someone says "I'm not going to argue with you anymore because it's below me" and then KEEPS arguing.

506 lemming anti-Town attitude wanting to lynch a player just for being annoying
507 White pro-Town attitude, annoyed but not going to lynch over it

@Zoneace: post 508 - I agree that lemming is distracting, but why do you include White? And moreover, why would you advocate lynching White before lemming?

White asks for a case several times.

536 lemming wish washy on everyone White asked him about – leaves himself wide open to backtrack on all of them by saying he needs to look at them more

558 Yamahako votes Zoneace without giving a reason

560 TS votes White, places all responsibility for it on JDodge

561 MoS goes off on lemming’s playstyle… not sure what he’s referring to or what he’s seen that made him so anti lemming. This is pointed out in the following posts.

576 White pointing out Niv could still be scum, asks ether to clarify her case; good scum hunting

600 makes me think Zorg and Lemming are scum buddies

611 Ether’s vote on White looks like OMGUS – are you only voting him because he is arguing with you?

615 Fonz points out booboo’s person C and then MoS agrees.

619 Lemming presents all the reasons he thinks zoneace is scum and then votes yagami

632 White claims out that opportunistic lurker scum is pushing his wagon. I disagree that all of these are lurkers, but I agree that scum could very well be on this wagon. I don’t see that anyone has given a case or decent reasons for voting White

633 JDodge misconstrues White’s post as though White said ALL 5 were opportunistic scum.

636 TS says White looks panicky

*a scum or two likely among those who blindly believed niv

[Setael]

Whoops. I hit submit instead of Preview - I meant to clean that up a lot, quote some of it and then post suspicions. Sorry it's so raw. I'll do an analysis of each player with suspicions as soon as I get a chance.

[Setael]

Seteal makes a nice long post. Sticks up for Zorg 133 I disagree that post was scummy, pushing the usual suspects Lemming, Yama defends Zorg again in 279. My this Zorg guy was useless from what I can remember. Defends TS aswell puts some stars next to me, Scope and Zeppo. 600 now calls Zorg scummy, wishy-washy much.

I was writing what I felt about the posts as I went. It’s not my fault some people sound Town one moment and scummy the next. The stars were posts I wanted to go back and look at again. I meant to clean it up.

Aimee

– Pro-Town scumhunter. Though she is not as active as I'd like and I don’t agree with her conclusions, she is poking and prodding, giving suspicions and generally acting pro-Town.

Probably Town

Simenon

– As I read through, I was thinking Sim might be scum for suggesting the masons not talk (assuming he didn’t want to talk so as not to give himself away). However, the more I think about it I think it makes sense for him as a pro-Town mason to suggest they not talk because they wouldn’t want to make any plans that the untrustworthy one could use against them. It’s possible the untrustworthy one is just your average traitor – he might come up Town if investigated, but his goal is probably to find out who the scum are and help them win. I don’t think it’s possible this anti-Town mason would be known to the scum from the start, and I don’t think he knows who the scum are. Or if he does, I would think he’s not allowed to talk to them outside of the thread. I think the masons

should

talk amongst themselves when allowed and try to flush out the traitor. In summary, Sim is

Probably Town

and even if he's not, it's crazy and scummy to advocate the lynch of a claimed mason this early in the game.

@Sim, you said a reread made Yamahako look scummy. Could you point out specific things you found scummy? For that matter, could you give reasons for your booboo vote? Is it just because it’s the “best wagon around?”

Toaster Strudel

– Not much decent content. Not actively scumhunting. Terrible reasoning behind votes. Voted MoS for his Flare vote, but then backtracked for several posts, adding more reasons why she had voted MoS. Blatant contradiction between these 2 posts:

Vote: Flare

I agree with the above comments. Sorry this isn't really the greatest reasoning, but I DO agree with the people who are also voting him, and I'm in a really hectic time of my life .

vote: Mastermind of Sin

Already making excuses for what he probably knows will turn out to be a townie lynch.

Jdodge, can I hear a case against me? Do you have a case against me?

No to the first, yes to the second

Upon further consideration, I am going to trust JDodge, and my own guts, on this one. I don't like White's line of questioning, as I posted earlier, he's trying to sink other players while avoiding compromising himself. JDodge says he has a case? I am going to believe it.

unvote, vote: White

TS does the exact same thing (only arguably worse) that she voted MoS for. Toaster's 142 just looks scummy because it seems ridiculous to think Simenon and Zoneace could be scum buddies after Zoneace's OMGUS vote. She’s the 5th vote on Simenon – this is an opportunistic anti-Town vote.

Probably Scum.

The Fonz

– Not posting much content. He’s doing more defending of other players than scumhunting. Seems to be laying low with his #1 goal to be not drawing attention and not looking like a lurker.

Probably Scum

.

JDodge (replacing ckillor)

– My initial read gave me the impression that ckillor and lemming were possibly mafia together. The first hint of it is when ckillor posted that Niv and Lemming are mafia together and voted Niv. Looked like distancing from lemming and a vote on someone he knew would come up town. JDodge’s 230 was uncharacteristic for him (metagaming-wise). In my experience, he doesn’t usually post this much content or try this hard to look pro-Town. Makes me wonder if he was trying to shake off ckillor’s scumminess. His post 633 was scummy. It was pretty obvious White didn’t mean he thought all 5 were scum.

Probably Scum.

Ether (replacing Honary Hitchhiker)

– Ether suggested outing another mason to confirm Simenon and Niv which seemed scummy. Pro-Town players wouldn’t be pushing to confirm more townies this early. Her Simenon vote (6th on wagon) is opportunistic. Pro-Town players would not be pushing a wagon on a claimed mason this early in the game. Sim and Niv are likely scum NK targets – why would Townies want to make the scum’s work so much easier? These votes seem contrived just to get the other masons to claim which is extremely anti-Town. Ether’s 425 feels pro-Town, seems to be actively scum hunting. In light of the rest of the scumminess, I'm inclined to think she's just scum trying to look Town. Post 611 OMGUS looking vote on White.

Probably Scum.

Sir Tornado

– Bonus Town points for adamantly disagreeing that another mason should be outed. Gets too much caught up in the Zoneace arguments, but his posts are solid attempts to present a case against zone rather than just voting him for being obnoxious. Take the time to look into zone’s play and then backs down on him.

Probably Town

.

Mastermind of Sin

– Though I disagree with his Simenon vote, his reasoning is solid and he seems to just want the pm situation cleared up. Solidly defends himself against all attacks. His seeming defense of Zoneace is mostly pointing out that zone shouldn’t be lynched just for having an annoying playstyle.

Probably Town

.

Yamahako

– Interestingly enough, he just voted Simenon which I find the most anti-Town thing any player can do right now. Says he feels terrible about his play and is trying something new – I think this is him making a poor excuse for scummy, unhelpful play. His vote on lemming might be distancing. He explains this new playstyle which is basically “self preservation before what is good for the Town.” His main goal seems to be to avoid being NK’d. Though I think this is anti-Town behavior, I can’t see scum doing/saying it.

Probably just unhelpful Town.

Out of time. I'll finish later.

[Setael]

Ether suggested outing another mason to confirm Simenon and Niv which seemed scummy. Pro-Town players wouldn’t be pushing to confirm more townies this early.

This is a misrepresentative lie that blatantly ignores what I actually said. I made no such suggestion.

Wow. "Misrepresentative lie that blatantly ignores" is pretty harsh. Are you trying to make me look suspicious or something? Here's what you actually said:

Colin's lack of a Nivote is bizarre. This in itself is null, but I see a clear dichotomy in the arguments and favor a Colynch. Since, y'know, Niv came out without prompting on Day 1 and all. I don't see scum motivation behind that. (I'd approve of outing another mason to clear up this mess, except that it wouldn't. Either Niv lied or he didn't: Colin's mason-talking strategy is an irrelevant tangent.)

Upon rereading it I can see that you didn't actually approve of outing another mason, you just said you would approve outing another mason if it would clear up this mess. I apologize for misunderstanding. I did not lie nor did I blatantly ignore your actual meaning. And for the record, I still think it's scummy that you would approve outing another mason if you thought it would clear up this mess.

Simenon's and Niv's early accounts suggested that one of them was lying, which was why I voted. Unconfirmed masons are not more worth protecting than unconfirmed players in general.

Yes they are when there are 3 other people who could claim to confirm them. Pressuring them further is pressuring the other masons to claim. Also, why vote to lynch them when if they are telling the truth the scum will be motivated to NK them?

I don't think it was OMGUS, as I don't regard his post as an actual attack. I made him analyze me, you realize, and I already didn't like him (as foreshadowed in a post you approved of). I'll admit that I'm feeling a strong newfound resentment toward you as of your misrepresentations of me (which do appear to be an attack which you initiated, yes).

You are awfully touchy. You get 2 bonus points for having the self control to not vote me inspite of this newfound resentment.

[Setael]

Also, Setael's last vote is full of fail.

I haven't voted yet, so what would you be talking about here? The person I replaced had voted lemming and I haven't removed it yet since I did find lemming quite scummy when I read. I need to finish my analysis of everyone before I vote. So.... what exactly is full of fail?

[Setael]

Also, FoS: Setael. Your opening analysis was just a summary, accompanied with various "this post was scummy" comments. Not lking, since this is incredibly non-committal.

This post makes it feel like you are just skimming and glazing over the thread, as you somehow seemed to miss the fact that I accidentally submitted that summary, and then followed up with a post analyzing and giving my suspicions... do you have any particular reason to only need to skim? Like maybe prior info on roles?

I'm working on my analysis of the rest of the player list. Should have it up shortly.

[Setael]

I've only finished a few more players, but I should be able to get to the rest tomorrow.

Lemming1607

– As I said on my JDodge/ckillor analysis, “My initial read gave me the impression that ckillor and lemming were possibly mafia together. The first hint of it is when ckillor posted that Niv and Lemming are mafia together and voted Niv. Looked like distancing from lemming and a vote on someone he knew would come up town.”

Lemming's 126, 127 & 129 against Zoneace look opportunistic. 176 & 357 give bad reasons to push the zoneace wagon. These “scum tells” he refers to are just playstyle idiosyncracies that he’s blowing out of proportion. 405 says he’s voting Zoneace “because he’s an idiot”, 484 Lemming does the exact opposite of erg0’s VERY pro-Town suggestion to not focus so heavily on Zoneace and seems to make every effort to keep the only discussion focused on zoneace. Says zoneace and MOS aligned and probably scum. 506 lemming anti-Town attitude wanting to lynch a player just for being annoying. At this point other players start pointing out that lemming is not scum hunting. Post 536 lemming is wishy washy on everyone White asked him about and leaves himself wide open to backtrack on all of them by saying he needs to look at them more.

Summary: Lemming’s insistence on focusing only on Zoneace as well as his willingness to vote Zoneace just because he’s obnoxious doesn’t seem at all like Townie play.

Probably scum

.

ZONEACE

– his Post 125 sounded very much like frustrated Town.

Im ndone playing, i won't be answering anymore questions. Its clear no matter what I say you all are gonna lynch me with your ZERO LOGIC so why try? This 5 person mason claim could EASILY be the mafia's way to safe claim, or it could really be there, I don't know and I don't care. So getting the others to confirm you won't do anything to sway me. Not to mention it would be a TERRIBLE idea if in infact you aren't mafia. The town having more people reveal themselves on day one is stupid, but since I've recieved votes for god only knows what reason, I don't expect to town to do the smart thing.

I can understand players being frustrated and annoyed with Zoneace, but I have yet to hear a decent reason to believe he’s scum. Most the focus on him has felt more like scum trying to get a Townie lynched, knowing that a lot of Town players won’t be hard to convince since Zoneace’s play has been so unhelpful and unfriendly.

Probably Town

.

White (replacing Carrotcake)

- I wasn't sure about White at first during my reread, but he is feeling very Town to me lately. His pro-Town attitude in 507 was refreshing, annoyed but not going to lynch over it as opposed to all those willing to vote because someone is obnoxious. White repeatedly asks for a case and I haven't seen anything I'd call concrete yet. Asks for suspicion from players, seems to be actively scum hunting.

The only thing that’s made me think he might be scum is this sentence “Lemming: Sadly i'm completely unable to get a read on this guy which means I really should do an isolation read through but i'm lazy and don't want to, so I won't yet.” Because Lemming has seemed so scummy to me, I find it hard to believe others can’t get a read on him. If I’m right that Lemming is scum, I could definitely see this as a scum buddy distancing move. Regardless of this, the rest of his posts have all been very pro-Town.

Probably Town

.

I could definitely see Toaster being scum and I am wondering if Ether's vote was bussing. I need to reread the past few days (only had a chance to skim) and finish my player analysis and then I'll vote.

[Setael]

*slaps Toaster*

It drives me nuts when power roles claim instead of at least

trying

to defend/answer accusations and talk their way out of the lynch. Especially when they're not even at -1. Weak sauce!

[Setael]

My guess: because he hasn't commented since you voted him.

[Setael]

I expected Simenon's point to be much more irrefutable from all the hype and condescension he put behind it. It's definitely possible (especially since nearly everyone seemed to read it this way) that MoS was just telling any other possible cops that it would be unwise to claim since there may be more than one in a game this big. I wish he had been MORE obvious, since evidently lemming didn't catch it.

By the way, it's annoying and confusing for some of us when Simenon is referred to as Colin.

[Setael]

boobie is doing a nice job to fly under the radar. Everyone forgot about him already.

I could say the same thing about you. You have posted no content - only a few one liners, and yet there is not a single vote on you. Care to provide your suspicions?

[Setael]

Mafiascum is going to shit.

It is?

[Setael]

Unvote

. I forgot that vote was still left over from the guy I replaced. lemming did look scummy to me after my first read so I didn't bother removing it, but I believe his claim.

Still working on my player analysis. I'm having a tough time with Zorg and Flare. Based on Flare agreeing with zorg's MoS case the way he did I don't think they're both scum, but I think one of them is. Still rereading. But then I saw Zeppo's last few posts and decided to skip over a few and look at zeppo.

At first he's very supportive of the jester idea, trying to convince everyone to not vote Zoneace. Then we have this gem:

I'm not sure if you're scum or not. To be honest, I don't really care. Either you are scum and therefore are a good lynch or you're just such such a bad townie at this point that lynching you in day 1 might actually be beneficial to the town in the long run because you won't confuse matters for the rest of the game.

FoS: Zoneace Either make a good case why I shouldn't vote for you with your next post or I will.

This post is full of fail. You don't lynch townies, even bad townies. And what happened to thinking he's a jester? Did you just drop that because no one supported the idea? Because... that would be scummy. The whole FOS threatening a vote unless he makes a good case why he shouldn't be voted also seems off. If you think he's scum, vote him and then if he presents this amazing case convincing you, change your vote. But oh yeah.... you don't think he's scum. You think he's a bad townie. Plus, if you're scum you probably don't want to be seen throwing your vote around. How very self-aware of you.

Zoneace, how badly you're playing this game continues to flaw me. I stated quite clearly that the reasoning you had given, which I quoted, was that you were victim of a basless bandwagon pushed by scum.

I pointed out that the bandwagon wasn't baseless, Simenon had a good reason to vote for you. I even admitted that the following votes on you were slightly sus but you had to argue your case better than you have. Your failure to do this suggests to me that you are indeed scum. I don't see an OMGUS vote on me is doing you any good.

True to my word Vote: Zoneace

So zeppo was convinced that Zoneace was the victim of a baseless bandwagon being pushed by scum. Changes his mind even though Zoneace's play doesn't change at all. Zeppo then decides that Zoneace's failure to argue his case better than he has is enough reason for a vote. This looks like the most opportunistic of all the Zoneace votes.

If I wanted to just jump on a bandwagon I could have done it a long time ago Zoneace. If by lurking you mean waiting until I had something constructive to add before I posted then yes, I lurked. I posted that I thought you were a jester because I was considering trying to warn people not to vote for you. However I think a jester would surely have been set a post limit.

I also think you dropped this argument because it wasn't popular.

No I don't think the actual votes on zoneace are confusion. But about 90% of the discussion going on at the moment is about zoneace and most of that just people flinging insults at one another. It's taking away from more fruitful discussion if he is innocent and just not defending himself very well. That said my vote on him still stands because I find said lack of defense scummy.

I take JDodge's point though (post 338). I have to admit I have my suspicions of Yamahako for his vote on Zoneace which seemed rather flimsy at the time. However he's far from #1 on my list right now.

He's right that the zoneace arguments are taking away from "more fruitful discussion", but evidently that's what he wants since his next several posts are still about Zoneace.

I read through a couple of Zoneace's other games. He seems almost as obtuse in those as he is in this. I suppose I'll swallow my pride and admit that the main reason I voted for zoneace isn't that he seems that scummy but because he is annoying the tits off me.

That's not a very good reason to vote for someone, even if it is a very tempting one.

So unvote for now. Although I will be thinking carefully about reconsidering if he makes any more moves I consider scummy.

Any

more

moves you consider scummy? That indicates there were moves you found scummy at some point. And yet you just said the only reason you voted him is because he's annoying. I also find it interesting that you never mentioned thinking he's annoying before this point. You always said you thought his lack of defense was scummy. So were you lying about thinking he was scummy before? Or are you lying now that you never thought he was scummy?

Unvote. Yamahako's last few posts have actually been constructive (except his very latest one which is such a Person C vote but meh), I'm not convinced of his scuminess.

I think I'll have to do a reread before I can vote for anyone else. Frankly I haven't got suspicions of anyone right now.

The only people zeppo has really stated suspicions on were zoneace and yamahako, and both were weak and noncommital and he unvoted them before he really pursued this supposed belief they were scum. Reading through, his yamahako push could be seen as pro-town until this point. He backs off, gets all wishy washy and says he isn't suspicious of anyone. Probably because he knows everyone's alignment.

Whelp, Lemming comes across to me as being the far more convincing of the two cops. So the question I have to ask myself now is could there be multiple cops? Sure there could. But it's far from guaranteed. I have my suspicions of other players, namely those that I voted for, but I wasn't dead certain about any of them. So for now at least TS seems the best lynch, Vote: Toaster Strudel

This is the clincher. The only one motivated to lynch a claimed cop before allowing them to do any investigation at all is scum. That combined with the scumminess of everything he ever said about Zoneace and his hesitancy to scum hunt or post suspicions on anyone else and voila, we have a candidate.

vote: zeppo

[Setael]

There's a good chance MoS and Zeppo are scum buddies - I think the case I made on zeppo was good enough to be commented on and instead MoS continued to harp about the cop nonsense. I would be willing to lynch MoS today as well. I think it's assinine to lynch a claimed cop D1 and I will NOT be voting for TS today, nor do I think Simenon should be encouraging people to do so. Doesn't it make sense to let them report at least ONE investigation in case we're wrong about which one is telling the truth?

[Setael]

There's a good chance MoS and Zeppo are scum buddies - I think the case I made on zeppo was good enough to be commented on and instead MoS continued to harp about the cop nonsense. I would be willing to lynch MoS today as well. I think it's assinine to lynch a claimed cop D1 and I will NOT be voting for TS today, nor do I think Simenon should be encouraging people to do so. Doesn't it make sense to let them report at least ONE investigation in case we're wrong about which one is telling the truth?

Huh? I didn't even see your case. I was distracted. How am I scum just because I didn't see a case? What about all the other people that didn't comment on it? Why are you singling me out? Also, in what way is it "nonsense" to say that it's stupid to lynch a claimed cop on a nightless Day 1? This whole post of yours seems really off in its logic. Is anyone else seeing this or is it just me?

I can understand if you didn't see it at all. I'm not sure I believe it, but if it's true then you look less scummy (hence the motivation to lie about it which is why I'm not sure I believe you). You should be able to see how that would look scummy if you had seen it, and then posted several times only about the cop issue - it looked like distracting to totally ignore the zeppo case. And by the way, check your facts before you post. I am NOT saying it is nonsense to say it's stupid to lynch a claimed cop. I have made it clear that I will NOT vote a claimed cop and I think it's assinine to do so before they can make investigations. What I think is "nonsense" is that it's being discussed at all.

I agree with the Fonz that booboo's unwillingness to answer to or defend against the Person C argument looks scummy. I still like my zeppo vote best though.

[Setael]

I would like lemming, simenon and ZONEACE to look over the Zeppo case and see if it's a reasonable alternative to lynching a claimed cop so early. If not, I would like your reasons why.

I do believe lemming's claim more than TS's, but I think it would be wise to get results from both their investigations before lynching one. Also, imo any doctors out there would be wise to protect lemming over TS.

In fact, considering that TS is likely scum and she is on White's wagon (in fact at this point she's the deciding vote which means White is likely Town), I think all those on the White wagon should also consider moving their vote. I recommend Zeppo, but I think MoS is a good 2nd choice. There is a good chance that he was planting the idea that there could be multiple cops in order to protect TS.

[Setael]

Setael's

got my back? I like her case on Zeppo, at least until she drags MoS in, but I'm not sure what to make of the fact that it's her doing it.

Zorgwagon's my deadline choice. Setael needs to explain it isn't hers (as implied by her dislike of MoS).

Yeah...I'm reeeeeeeeeeaaally not getting the MoShate.

I agree with erg0 that I've been making too big a deal out of the fact that MoS suggested there could be multiple cops, so I think my MoS suspicion could be off. The other reason I was willing to have MoS be my 2nd place choice was Simenon's surety that MoS is scum, and the fact that he has more of a substantial wagon than zeppo (though I think this is the fault of all the Townies who aren't voting him yet. Several have mentioned they agree with the case so at least there is still hope). However, the more I look at Simenon the more I realize I should not assume he's a pro-Town mason and I therefore won't be putting so much store in his MoS suspicion. His recent attempt to cast suspicion on me for "directing the doc" was quite a stretch. If I believe lemming over TS there is nothing wrong with me saying "IMO lemming should be protected over TS."

Urgh this is exactly what's bothering. Yeah I'm new so maybe I just haven't worked out why lynching a claimed cop is such a cardinal sin. But a claimed cop is just that- claimed. It depends on whether you believe them. In your quote above you obviously seem pretty convinced that TS is scum and yet you would rather lynch me. Cop claim aside would TS look a better lynch than me? If so maybe I should just come out and claim cop!

Ok here is why you don't lynch a claimed cop on day 1 (keep in mind that i'm not saying NEVER lynch them, I'm saying don't do it today before they've had a chance to investigate at all). First of all, it does not depend on whether you believe them or not because even if you don't believe them they might still really be a cop. So let's say we WAIT at least through one night to lynch one of the claimed cops. If the scum NK the real cop, we've made them waste a NK on someone we would've lynched if you had your way. If they don't NK them, then both claimed cops give us an investigation result. THEN if we lynch them or they are NK'd we get at least one confirmed townie out of it. This is also why it is scummy to push for the lynch of a claimed cop, because it is very much to scum's advantage if we mislynch a claimed cop, both because it keeps us from getting cop investigations, and we do their dirty work for them by mislynching a cop. So you see, even though I think both you and TS are scum, just in case I'm wrong about either of you, there is a LOT more reason to lynch you today rather than TS. Make sense?

I find it an extraordinarily useful tell, so the onus is on you (and booboo) to demonstrate why it isn't, if you don't want it used. Do you not accept that scum have reason to hide behind other people's arguments in order to cause mislynches without being too strongly associated with the lynch? In the same way I think any vote made with the justification 'we're nearing deadline and any lynch is better than none' is scummy.

Basically a person C is a bandwagoner. Ok im a bandwagoner. But so is everyone else in this game. The fact that agreeing with someone makes them mafia is ludicrous.

I've already responded to your accusations. I dont feel like looking back that far for it but i'll quote it the next you bring it up

I could definitely see booboo being scum after this post. The person C argument is a good scumtell and it doesn't look good for you to totally disregard it.

[Setael]

Just for lurking, or do you have any other reasons to suspect zorg?

[Setael]

Just for lurking, or do you have any other reasons to suspect zorg?

There was a wagon on Zorg well before he started lurking, it's just taken this long for people to start paying attention. I find this post slightly disingenuous.

You are assuming Beastly agrees with every point everyone else has made against Zorg. Why is that a given? Don't you think you should make him clarify what he thinks is scummy about Zorg rather than letting him make general statements without giving reasons?

[Setael]

@Simenon: Rather than just saying it's dumb, could you point out any errors in logic or things I am misunderstanding? Because... nothing has been said by zeppo or anyone else to refute it at all.

[Setael]

and Zeppo has done too many town things to be scum

Can you point these out please?

[Setael]

I think one of either Flare or Zorg is scum but I have not had time to reread to decide which I think it is or present a case on either of them. I'm much more certain about zeppo than I am about either of them so I'm keeping my vote on him.

[Setael]

Thanks for replacing in. Your insight is much needed.

[Setael]

I bet TS is an insane cop.

[Setael]

Ah, I can see why you would think that Fonz, but that's not what I meant. Though TS is probably scum, I think it's just as likely that she's an insane cop. Either way I won't trust her results.

[Setael]

Spit it out already. This is getting annoying.

[Setael]

[Setael]

The most obvious answer is that lemming is a real cop and TS is an insane cop. That would fit both their results. I think we should wait and let them both investigate again tonight, with the understanding that lemming's results are probably the only ones that can be trusted.

On to scumhunting. Is SomeStrangeSimenon an alt for Simenon? I need to reread.

[Setael]

unvote, vote: Toaster Streudal

I have a hard time believing there weren't other townies who thought she was an insane cop when she said she had guilty results. I didn't know what to make of the claims after their results on each other, especially since during my reread I thought lemming was scum right up until he claimed. This is also why I think Simenon's case on Zoneace is weak. I think I am too easily trusting of cop claims.

[Setael]

10.) Avoid excessive profanity, flaming etc.

This is for Flameaxe and Simenon and anyone else whose vocabulary isn't extense enough that they have to resort to ad hom and cursing. It's been brought up by other players in this game so I know I'm not the only one who finds is obnoxious. Thank you for your cooperation.

[Setael]

@Simenon: My "whining" was definitely more directed at Zoneace but since you weren't squeaky clean in the matter, I had to include you as well.

I'm ready for TS to be lynched.

[Setael]

FYI: White (replacing Carrotcake) died last night.

[Setael]

Mmmm... vanilla ice cream. Go town!

[Setael]

Editted by the mod.

[Setael]

Gotta catch up on the thread and then I'll post.

Is there a deadline set?

[Setael]

Ok so here's my dilemma. I finished my reread and my top suspects are BM and Bookitty. This is pretty depressing to me since if Bookitty was town I think we'd have this game in the bag but if she's scum we've got problems. Also because she's already stated a desire to lynch Flare so I know I'm walking into the flames to challenge her. Besides that, several other players have voiced suspicion of Flare, so I'll be an easy wagon. The funny thing is, when I was in this game I was pretty sure either Flare or Zorg was scum, but not both.

Still working on my player analysis. I'm having a tough time with Zorg and Flare. Based on Flare agreeing with zorg's MoS case the way he did I don't think they're both scum, but I think one of them is.

I think one of either Flare or Zorg is scum but I have not had time to reread to decide which I think it is or present a case on either of them.

And then this from Bookitty...

I'm thinking at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum. I'm not really sure which, but Toaster Strudel's early comment painting Flare as scum, while never pursuing him in any meaningful manner, seems like a better case for his lynch than Zorg's. TS linked herself rather openly to Zorg, not a move I think smart scum would make.

I would agree with her, except that I now know Flare was Town. Lucky me getting the insider info. So I am then left with Zorg (BM) and a realization that TS was better at distancing than we're all giving her credit for. I know BM isn't even done with his read, but based on TS's interaction with Zorg, I think BM is scum.

Two noteworthy things I found re: the Yamahako wagon:

When White attacks Yamahoko for some valid reasons, TS defends Yama, saying "Loaded question noted. Here's another: 'Yama, when did you stop beating puppies?'"

Again, possibly too clear a linkage for scum to make to other scum.

Seems like a good reason to not be pushing the Yama wagon, but she's on it regardless.

Also this from Ether, which is basically the jumpstart of the Yama wagon:

We need to wagon the shit out of Yamahako so he starts scumhunting. Or dying.

Though it was started as a pressure wagon, it looks as though Yama has earned all these votes because he's not that great at responding to pressure. And because everyone would rather vote Flare but he was inactive so Yama was the other lurker to target. I don't think Yama is scum, but my vote won't be necessary for him to be lynched at deadline anyway. I'd rather wagon BM at this point since I think there's a very good chance he's scum.

As far as Bookitty goes, I will need some time to put together a solid case. I know very well that if I slap up a quick case she'll easily be able to tear it up and her arguments will be more convincing than mine. I know there's a good chance a Flare wagon could still be fired up and overtake Yama (especially since there aren't many solid reasons for voting Yama out there imo) so if that happens, when I come up town someone who has the time/logic to stand up to Bookitty in a debate, look back at her play especially re: MoS. I may have time to do this myself before deadline, but it's doubtful.

For now,

vote: BM

[Setael]

My case on BM is that I believe TS was distancing from one of either Flare or Zorg and I know it wasn't Flare. I'll get something more concrete posted before deadline.

[Setael]

(Aimeescum also implies BMtown, though.)

You've probably already explained this or maybe it was obvious, but can you point me to where this can be seen? If it's one or the other, at this point I would be inclined to think Aimee is town since BM is on my naughty list.

[Setael]

I was surprised BM ignored the Yama wagon in his big post, and then when erg0 questioned him on it:

With reference to your question, Yama isnt on my scummy list (unless he replaced someone there) so i dont think he's a great lynch atm, but ofc, as i havent read the last 20 pages of the game, i doubt my judgement is going to be great. lol
Looking at the wagon, i can see alot of potential scum on there, but whether that is bussing or not, i cant say.

I don't have a problem with BM not thinking Yama is scummy since I didn't on my read, either. What I do find scummy is that he avoided commenting on it, and only took a stand on it when prompted. I could see Yama and BM as scum buddies, so I'm considering hammering.

But first, has Yama claimed?

[Setael]

Right. Yama, please claim.

[Setael]

Is that a vanilla claim?

[Setael]

I reread Yamahako. It didn't take long since most the game he's given unhelpful one-liners. That combined with his refusal to claim is enough for me.

vote: Yamahako

[Setael]

Hey BM, have you finished reading the thread?

I think it's pretty obvobv that if I was scum and KNEW Yama was going to come up town, I would not have hammered since the only outcome would've been casting suspicion on myself. Cry WIFOM all you want, I'm not that stupid. I hammered because Yama was scummy and there was no way to reverse that wagon and still end the day this century.

I should've stuck to my guns on BM yesterday, even if there was no way to turn an entire town.

vote: Battle Mage

[Setael]

I think i made myself perfectly clear yesterday. I said that if you placed a vote on Yama, for your absolutely non-existent reasoning, you would become my top suspect, and what do you do? Not only do you ignore my warning, but you also drop a HAMMER with no further validation ATALL.

Except for the fact that I reread him and was satisfied that I could be wrong about him, which has been happening to me a lot lately. So saying I had no further validation at all... that's a lie.

[Setael]

So your validation for hammering Yamahako was that you were satisfied with being wrong about his alignment?

this makes no sense. You were thinking about placing a vote on him, with shite reasoning, then you read his play, discovered that he wasnt as scummy as you originally thought, and yet decided to throw the hammer down, based on your DECREASED suspicion of him?

You and MoS both seem to have misunderstood. I thought he was town when I initially replaced in and caught up on the game and therefore was not planning on voting for him at all. In another game I'm in I refused to join 2 wagons because I thought they were town and they BOTH turned out to be scum. Realizing Yama could be the 3rd time this is happening to me in like 2 weeks, I decided to reread him. The reread (as I stated when I hammered) made me realize he'd actually been very scummy and all those on the wagon were probably right instead of me. So, realizing I had probably been wrong about him (in thinking he was town) I hammered.

Though I still think BM is scum, this most recent bandwagon jump by Bookitty looks very scummy as well. The Bookitty I've had experience with would recognize and point out the glaring flaws in logic being used by all those who have voted me today. But... that Bookitty was a townie. Her arguments in this game (especially re: MoS a few pages back) are nothing like I've seen from her when she was a townie and she's ignoring things I would normally expect her to point out. Still plan to give a case on her when I have time.

May as well leave my vote on BM though since I think they're both scum, which makes my wagon quite heavily scum driven. If it succeeds, at least when I come up town it'll point a big hairy finger at BM and Bookitty.

[Setael]

Skruffs, please let us know who you investigated last night. If you investigated Bookitty, I'll give you a big hug for saving me from having to make a case.

Makes an odd comment that I should be coming to her defense...

Interesting interpretation of what I said. What I meant was that you are not pointing out failed logic in this game, which is uncharacteristic for you from a meta perspective.

Additionally, she called my vote on her a "bandwagon jump", when in fact it was the first vote I'd placed since day break.

Odd that you would misunderstand this and try to turn it into a scum tell. Clearly I meant it was a jump ONTO a bandwagon, not a jump from bandwagon to bandwagon.

Setael: Why did you ignore Bookitty before? Why did Setael I ignore bookitty?

When did I ignore bookitty? I stated suspicion on her in my first post after replacing in.

So because you were wrong a few times, you suddenly doubted your judgement and a reread miraculously changed your opinion of him? What did you see that you hadn't seen before? What had you thought you'd seen that made him protown in your initial read?

My reasons for thinking the Yama wagon was bad was not anything protown Yama had done, but rather the lack of a decent case on him. Originally the votes started piling on for lurking. He stopped lurking and they didn't come off. The wagon seemed to gain steam just because he wasn't verbosely and convincingly defending himself. So I thought it was a bad wagon. When it became evident that the day was just dragging out and the lynch was inevitable, I reread him. His play was unhelpful, consisting mostly of one-liners and unexplained votes. He didn't start really participating until some serious pressure was placed on him. So I decided I'd probably been wrong about the wagon being bad (and therefore wrong to assume he was town) and I hammered.

[Setael]

What glaring flaws in logic are being exhibited by those voting for you?

I'll have to dig these up. Generally speaking, I'm town so everyone who thinks I'm scum is using bad logic.

What in particular made you feel Yamahako was scummy enough to hammer?

Answered in my previous post. What do you know? I DID answer one of them!

Why would you trust my analysis on ToasterStrudel distancing from Zorg, if you think I'm scum?

I thought that independently of you, actually. I guess you have a point that if you are scum, it is less likely to be true.

If you felt my play was significantly different during the argument with MoS, why didn't you point this out at the time, during your previous incarnation?

I did not have the meta read on you as town at the time. You replaced into this game on Nov. 1. I was NK'd Nov. 7. In the other game I’m referring to, I found out you were town on Nov. 27. So... I needed to survive another 20 days in this game in order to be expected to have commented on it.

[Setael]

I'm going to wait to hear from Skruffs before I respond to this. It would be annoying if he got a guilty result on you and just wasn't clear about it.

[Setael]

I'll take Skruffs post as a "No, I didn't investigate Boo" which is a bummer. I'm guessing Zoneace has been cleared but I guess if Skruffs doesn't feel like sharing his info, that's his prerogative.

As far as reactions to your Bookitty vote, I don't think anything difinitive can be gleaned from it. You're pretty well confirmed pro-town cop, so as far as your role goes, scum and town have the same information and will therefore likely react the same to your posts. You shouldn't be surprised when people take your word as gospel, nor should you see that as a scum or town tell imo. If you haven't yet said who you investigated, and you vote someone without giving reasons, then players may think that's you saying you got a guilty. Both scum and town.

I guess this means I have to make time to present a case on Bookitty after all.

[Setael]

Welcome Korejora! Do you have a nickname?

[Setael]

I forgot that as well. Otherwise Skruff's Bookitty vote would've meant nothing to me since I'd have assumed he had been roleblocked.

I'm working on my Boo case. It has to be decent, or I'm going to end up getting lynched as town AGAIN in this game. Which is just too ridiculous to happen this close to Christmas.

[Setael]

The long-awaited Boo case has finally arrived.

When I replaced in, I read from where DeadSetael died to catch up. I hadn't paid much attention to Bookitty in my previous incarnation and had no opinion of her alignment. During my catch up read, her posts sent up red flags and I was pretty sure she was scum. This feeling is partly based on how different her posts seem from the one game I've finished with her in which she was town and used solid logic, made logical conclusions and left no stone unturned. Such is not the case in this game. Let's start with her Post 1523, which is the heart of why I think Bookitty is scum. Here it is, in its entirety.

Some interactions between ToasterStrudel and others:

She votes MoS. This could be distancing, but Flare and Zorg jump on this wagon pretty quickly. When Erg0 expresses some discomfort with the wagon, TS states "It's never a bad long-term strategy, especially in a big game, to keep some heat on MoS. If he's scum, you hope that he might slip up. I don't know if that's what Flare and Zorg have in mind, but I sure wouldn't like MoS to get complacent."

This just doesn't seem like scum distancing to me.

unvote

Then, when Ether notes that "You voted MoS with the implications that Flare was town", TS disavows this, stating, "Independently of my observations on MoS, Flare's contributions seem to lean on the side of disruption, rather than contribution, so I would definitely add him to the scummy column."

This DOES look like scum distancing to me.

TS decides to go along with JDodge's suspicions of White (townie), saying "Upon further consideration, I am going to trust JDodge, and my own guts, on this one." I don't see scum saying this about other scum, it's too clear a linkage.

When White attacks Yamahoko for some valid reasons, TS defends Yama, saying "Loaded question noted. Here's another: 'Yama, when did you stop beating puppies?'"

Again, possibly too clear a linkage for scum to make to other scum.

Some weird interplay in which TS doesn't really defend Ether, nor attack her, but just uses her in some confusing example of buddying up to lurkers. (White really wasn't helping himself here, and I have no idea what TS means about Ether in these posts.)

WIFOM: TS accuses White of buddying up with MoS... trying to get back to her original lynch target of MoS, or trying to clear MoS when White comes up town? I'm leaning toward the first, based on tone.

Does some fishing and comes up with the idea that White is a mason, due to Simenon's opposition to his lynch. Loudly hints at her discovery.

Chummily points out to MoS that "I really, really don't see what's so special about Zorg. Whatever scent of scum he gives off, I must be immune to it. I read all the posts, and I just don't get it." Too clear a defense for scum to make of other scum, once again, as I see it.

Really liking my unvote on MoS at the moment. TS seems fixated on him, not something I see scum doing to other scum.

MoS, ZONEACE, Flameaxe, JDodge vote for TS and force a claim. A wagon forms on Zorg nearly instantly. TS votes White, despite the Zorg wagon.

I'm thinking at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum. I'm not really sure which

, but Toaster Strudel's early comment painting Flare as scum, while never pursuing him in any meaningful manner, seems like a better case for his lynch than Zorg's. TS linked herself rather openly to Zorg, not a move I think smart scum would make.

And rereading Flare's posts, which are alternating attacks and withdrawals of those attacks (at least in my view), I don't see anything to make me reconsider this idea.

vote Flare

Oh, and Minor FOS: Mastermind of Sin. Your kitty is SO not cuter.

My first issue with this post is that after so many long and thorough posts about why she thinks MoS is scum, she dismisses all of it with TS' interaction with MoS. Bookitty was not wishy washy on MoS - she had good reasons for her case, and good rebuttals to his defense. As strong as she was on MoS, I would expect her to at least consider that TS could've been distancing impressively rather than dropping the entire MoS case for this one reason, about which she could be wrong. I believe she had other reasons for unvoting MoS. The kind scum don't want to share. Strategy stuff, you know.

The second issue I have with this post is Bookitty's stance on Zorg/BM. I've bolded what was specifically fishy. The only thing Bookitty really says about Zorg is

the same thing

she's saying about MoS. The reason that was good enough to drop the entire MoS case, which is that TS' interaction with Zorg is "too clear a defense for scum to make of other scum" and her conclusion therefore should be that Zorg, like MoS, is unlikely to be scum. A logical conclusion, considering the same evidence she's giving about Zorg is the reason she unvoted and cleared MoS (and has dropped her suspicion of him ever since).

However, that's not the conclusion she makes about Zorg. Instead she concludes that "at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum" and says she's not sure which, as if there's equal reasons to suspect both. Really? I find that odd, considering she's given no reason to suspect Zorg, but has actually pointed out basically the same interaction between TS and Zorg that she pointed out between TS and MoS. It's especially odd for her to put Zorg on par with Flare, who in this post she has stated a lot of GOOD reasons to think he's scum, including his interactions with TS which, unlike Zorg's, were likely distancing (according to Boo's arguments in this post).

So my point is, the only reason she included Zorg/BM here at all is to distance from him. Bookitty had given no reason to suspect Zorg, and had actually given reasons to clear him along with MoS. It makes no sense for her to say she thinks one of Zorg or Flare are scum after this post. By her own logic, she should have cleared Zorg in this post just like she cleared MoS. She didn't, because she didn't want to defend a scum buddy so obviously. As Boo said herself when clearing Zoneace as Town, "There's no advantage to scum in buddying up to other scum."

Other interesting bits:

After Ether points out that Bookitty hasn’t commented on TS at all, Bookitty analyses TS. The entire analysis sounds like she already knows TS is scum. She then casts suspicion on players who aren't as confident about it as she is. She FOSes Vanilla Townie DeadSetael in her next post for considering the possibility that TS is an insane cop. This accusation looks like Boo

knows

TS is scum and can be confident attacking those who aren’t sure due to lack of insider info.

And while I'm not certain it means anything, I did find it oddly wishywashy. I want to remember it in light of what I think we will discover about Toaster Strudel.

Once again, looking back it looks like Boo knew TS was going to come up scum, and was using that insider info to cast suspicion on those who didn’t know and were therefore making incorrect assumptions and being wishy washy about the cop situation.

The next item is her wishy washy, noncommital and tentative Zoneace stance. It feels like she thinks she has to cover the Zoneace issue because it's so blatant, but doesn't believe he's scum for a second. Presents a case on him, but then never takes a stand and says things like:

I'm saving that one to use the next time I'm scum. Not saying ZONEACE is scum, mind you, I just think that's a pretty scummy statement.

That said, I don't know if he's scum or town, but I do feel a bit sorry for him, because he gets so very angry when he can't persuade others of his arguments. It's all so very scummy that I think nearly he can't be scum, because WIFOM, but scum would never be this obvious, so I'm going to tentatively say that I think ZONEACE is town.

This noncommital, tentative stance is much more likely to come from scum than town.

So, that's it. TS cleverly distanced from Zorg/BM and buddied up to Flare, also a wise move considering her words could later be painted to clear Zorg and cast suspicion on Flare/Me. Bookitty has followed up on the seeds TS planted, but she slipped up with the distancing from Zorg and clearing MoS so easily. I don't buy it, and I think Bookitty and BM are scum buddies.

[Setael]

Whoops. Forgot I wasn't voting her.

unvote, vote: Bookitty

[Setael]

BM, I notice you didn't address that a big chunk of my case on Bookitty is based on the theory that she was distancing from you as her scum buddy. All you said was I brought up some pretty valid points. Was that one of them?

[Setael]

Skruffs, you seem to be letting Bookitty distract you. Do you now think Bookitty is town? Or just that MoS is scummier? You better have good reason to think Bookitty is town since you are now effectively stalling/possibly derailing her wagon.

I made my case against MoS. He answered it, and he didn't do so in a way I thought scum would (i.e., attacking someone else), and a meta check on his interactions with ZONEACE led me to believe that part of the defense. I still don't like the comment about two cops being made before the actual revelation that this was the case. That said, MoS responded as if he were town, and I dropped it because TS's interactions seemed to be trying to link to him (deliberately, as opposed to unavoidably) and because it got into WIFOM territory (why would scum say that and draw attention to himself?) and that's not helpful to town in my view.

Bookitty, does your latest suspicion of MoS mean you now disbelieve all of this? Does the fact that he thinks I made a decent case on you outweigh all these reasons you gave for thinking he's town?

I didn't see the point in reiterating the suspicions other people had of Battle Mage and parroting their cases, though I thought they had merit. At the time of the post you quoted, Zorg was generally regarded as suspicious, as was Flare. I didn't parrot the suspicions of Flare either, because they were well covered territory as well.

But you did give several reasons to think that Zorg/BM was town and then concluded he was likely scum. Your explanation of this is the fact that OTHER people had cases on Zorg that you didn't want to repeat, so rather than bother to give your own reasons to suspect Zorg, you just agreed with everyone else's cases. Isn't that what you're accusing MoS of?

[Setael]

Setael, what do you think of Mastermind of Sin's reasoning for joining the wagon on me?

I think it's possible you and he are both scum and you are now distancing for the inevitability that you are lynched today and come up scum. It's hard to have good reasons to join a scumbuddy's wagon, I'll give ya that.

I think another possibility is that MoS is really busy, which he has stated in other games I am in with him. This would also be a legitimate excuse for agreeing with a case and voting because of it rather than coming up with new reasons.

The second possibility is much more likely, considering I think if MoS was scum he'd find a better reason to join your wagon (regardless of your alignment).

You made a case on me, so obviously I'm your top suspect. If that were not the case, who (two or three people, not just Battle Mage, please) would you be most suspicious of at this point? Can you elaborate on why you'd be suspicious of them (and include Battle Mage in this, if you don't mind)?

Well, that's kind of a weird question since you're asking me to pretend I think you're town and then say what I'd think of everyone. If you were to be lynched and come up town, I'd need to reread.

If I'm right and you're scum, I'm still suspicious of BM for reasons I've already given and of Simenon and Ether for reasons I don't want to give yet. JDodge is on my town list if you come up scum, in part because he's not on your wagon yet and if he was scum, I think he would be.

Bookitty, I'd like you to answer your own question and give a scum list, please.

I'm asking him questions. And, if you were really convinced I was scum, Setael, then why would you be making the assumption that I believe or disbelieve ANYTHING I'm saying? Your arguments in my direction all indicate that you think I'm town, and that I might "suspect" MoS of being scum, something SCUM would not do, or need to do.

Actually, if you think about it logically instead of just trying to paint me as scummy, you realize that this actually shows I'm town, since I think you're scum but I don't KNOW and so I don't talk as though I KNOW.

I guess I should restate this so you have to answer it instead of avoiding the question by attacking my tone:

Bookitty, your latest suspicion of MoS seems to indicate that you are now trying to get us to think he's scum, when just a few posts ago you were arguing that he's town. What has changed to change your mind? Does the fact that he agreed with my case alone outweigh all the reasons you gave to think he's town?

The post you keep referring to was not a case on anyone. It was evidence collected from TS's interactions with people, along with my opinions on that evidence. The evidence was in quote form. The opinions were prefaced by "I think" or occasionally "in my view". I don't think there's much mistaking between the two, and there's certainly always the possibility that others would have interpreted them differently. That said, what I was accusing MoS of was adopting someone else's argument without actually having read it and understood it, as an excuse to jump onto a bandwagon unnoticed. I said that, quite clearly.

So... do you deny that you presented "evidence" (based on Zorg's interactions with TS) that Zorg was likely town? Regardless of whether you call it a case or not, it's still a reason to think Zorg is town, which is not the conclusion you came to. The reason you gave for this a few posts ago was that other people were generally suspicious of Zorg, and that was enough for you to be suspicious as well, regardless of evidence you'd found that would lead you to believe that Zorg was town. This is worse than what you're accusing MoS of. In fact, I'd say it's an outright lie to accuse MoS of not having read and understood my case on you. He seems to have understood it just fine.

Now, I'm pretty convinced you know I'm town, Setael, and if by some chance you're able to get me lynched, I want people remembering who followed your argument without even seeming to notice that it was calling for a vote on himself. That's the point of my questioning, and I think it worked. And I doubt you can find a parallel in anything I have done, but please, feel free to try.

What has convinced you? Your illogical argument that my tone implied I think you're town? Because that doesn't hold water. Anything else?

I disagree that my case was calling for a vote on MoS as you said. But even if that were true, what about all the other people who haven't voted for MoS since I posted my case? Would you say they misunderstood it as well? And if so, why isn't it a scum tell for any of them?

[Setael]

I thought you might say that. At some point, anyway.

[Setael]

What do you base this opinion of MoS on, exactly? Do you feel his arguments and votes have been well supported throughout the game?

I already answered this in the post you quoted.

The second possibility is much more likely, considering I think if MoS was scum he'd find a better reason to join your wagon (regardless of your alignment).

Why not reread now? Humour me.

I just read. Remember how I JUST replaced in? I read, and I think you're scum. If I'm wrong, I'll reread.

That's not at all the tone you've used. You on the one hand attack repeatedly one person and are not even looking for any other scum, in fact, defending MoS for slipping onto the wagon, and one assumes that if you were town, you wouldn't KNOW his alignment either. Your tone with him is quite different. You make excuses for his behaviour, and make appeals to others who ARE confirmed town (and yes, I do regard Skruffs that way) for pointing out his behaviour.

I was curious what reactions my question to skruffs would bring. He is the cop. His opinion holds a lot of weight, and who he votes has more influence than a lot of us non-confirmeds. I would like to know if he has reason to believe you're town. It does frustrate me that he's not helping more, considering he is the most confirmed player we have.

Could you list "all the reasons" I gave to think he was town, please? I'd like to see the quote for that.

Easy enough. Here it is:

I made my case against MoS. He answered it, and he didn't do so in a way I thought scum would (i.e., attacking someone else), and a meta check on his interactions with ZONEACE led me to believe that part of the defense. I still don't like the comment about two cops being made before the actual revelation that this was the case. That said, MoS responded as if he were town, and I dropped it because TS's interactions seemed to be trying to link to him (deliberately, as opposed to unavoidably) and because it got into WIFOM territory (why would scum say that and draw attention to himself?) and that's not helpful to town in my view.

I think you're scum. Therefore I think you know I'm town. I don't think you're suspecting me of being scum, or really suspecting anyone. You know, or you don't. I could be wrong, but I'm not feeling that you're uncertain about my alignment at all.

Funny. Not only are you wrong, but I could say the exact same thing about you. Word for word.

Your case was calling for ME to vote for MoS. The scumtell he committed was to adopt your argument, not justify it, and then be put in the awkward situation of saying, Yes, she should have been voting for me all along, which I think you have to admit is an odd accusation to make of someone, especially coming from someone who reacted so negatively to being voted in the first place.

Me calling for you to vote MoS is in your head. I don't think you should've unvoted him in the first place, but you voting him now would not solve that. I don't believe you think he's scum, because I think YOU are scum. The fact that you unvoted him for weak reasons is the scum tell, as well as the fact that you had the SAME reasons to clear Zorg/BM, but didn't. That is my point, as much as you misconstrue it, as well as the fact that you have been using a double standard on players which is something you don't do as town. Evidently you do it as scum.

[Setael]

Are you attempting to defend Mastermind of Sin, Setael? I notice you're not actually answering any of my questions, which were posted right above your last post.

Why is that?

That was due to simulposting. You're really reaching.

Yes, using your logic, you should've either voted for me or dropped the other suspects as you did with me.

Apparently it's in MoS's head too.

Except that you're saying my case called for you to vote MoS NOW, correct? Both MoS and I are saying my case is saying you should've either NOT unvoted MoS back then, or if you were going to unvote him, you should've also said you thought Zorg/BM was town like you thought MoS was town, since you had the same evidence on both of them. Has nothing to do with calling for you to vote MoS NOW. It's too late for that. The scum tell happened long ago and can't be fixed by you voting MoS now, so how am I calling for you to vote mos?

Your quote is not a list of reasons MoS is town, but a list of reasons why he wasn't my top suspect, and I think a reasonable person would recognise it as such. Additionally, you're basically criticising me because I was not voting simultaneously for Flare, Battle Mage, and MoS, along with anyone else I had suspected. I have only one vote, Setael, just like everyone else. And your argument that I should vote for everyone who had a suspicious interaction with ToasterStrudel and who I expressed suspicion of is just spurious, impossible, and wrong.

Incorrect. You had every reason to be voting Flare, as I have said several times - you presented what you considered evidence that he and TS were scum together so it made sense to vote him. What didn't make sense was for you to consider Zorg/BM as scummy as Flare to the point where you didn't know which one was scummier RIGHT AFTER giving ONLY reasons to think Zorg was town and ONLY reasons to think Flare was scum. I don't care that you unvoted MoS, I care that you unvoted and cleared MoS but continued to suspect Zorg when it made no sense for you to do so in those circumstances.

Also, you said this quote of yours was not saying mos was town, but was saying why he wasn't your top suspect. Here's your quote again:

I made my case against MoS. He answered it, and

he didn't do so in a way I thought scum would

(i.e., attacking someone else), and a meta check on his interactions with ZONEACE led me to believe that part of the defense. I still don't like the comment about two cops being made before the actual revelation that this was the case. That said,

MoS responded as if he were town

, and I dropped it because

TS's interactions seemed to be trying to link to him (deliberately, as opposed to unavoidably

) and because it got into WIFOM territory (

why would scum say that and draw attention to himself?)

and that's not helpful to town in my view.

Bolded are all the places you imply that he's town. Your goal may have just been to say why he wasn't your top suspect, but what you did was give your reasons for thinking he was town. In fact, it could be argued that this whole paragraph sounds like you KNOW he's town which, funny enough, is an argument you've recently tried to throw at me.

[Setael]

Why didn't you ever accuse me based on the legitimately poor play of my predecessor? Booboodafool made a really stupid error that nearly got him lynched. Yet you don't comment that at all, nor do you seem to be aware of it. Otherwise I don't think you would have let this fact slip by you.

I never liked the Person C argument. When it was first brought up, I thought what was meant by a Person C argument was something like Person A makes a case against Person B, but then votes Person C. Once they explained, it was clear they meant what you said and at that point I dismissed the argument since I think it's weak. It is done all the time by both town and scum and I don't think it's as good a scum tell as it was made out to be.

I think you are scum based on your actions, not based on anything your predecessor did. I do find it interesting that you call his play "legitimately poor" since that's about all you can do when you replace scum that has been scummy. Regardless of anything your predecessor did, I don't think you've explained your own actions - at least not in a way that makes me think I'm wrong and you're town. I'd rather focus on what you've done, if that's ok with you.

You seem to repeatedly be trying to shake off my points against you by trying to link me to MoS and by bringing up things unrelated to the case I made on you. I don't know MoS' alignment, and my case on you is independent of his alignment regardless of how hard you try to make it rely on it.

Re: the rereading thing. I think that at any point in any game, it would be helpful for every single player to reread. Do we always have time to do so? Nope. Based on your play since Setael1 died and your reaction to my case, you are my #1 scum, and I'm happy with my vote on you.

With the confirmed cop backing you, and simenon doing so as well (albeit as subtly as possible) you're unlikely to get lynched anytime soon. Maybe I'll have time to reread before the rest of the players take a side. No guarantees, since I'd much rather see you lynched before I reread.

[Setael]

Bookitty, what are your thoughts on this statement:

"MoS would be more careful to have his own reasons for voting Bookitty if he were scum."

Regardless of what now occurs, I'm certain that people won't forget that he slipped onto this wagon, and that you pushed it, and your arguments will be reexamined in light of whatever else we discover. I don't fear such. At this point, if I'm lynched, I think town has enough information and content to win, so I'm not worried either way.

Well then, I hope I'm right that you're scum so we don't end up with multiple mislynches. If that happens, then regardless of how much info and content the town has, it'd be tough to pull off a win.

Also, if you had no insider info (i.e. if you were a townie) I don't think you would say something like "town has enough information and content to win" because frankly, the town NEVER has enough info and content to win. It's all a guessing game since we have no prior knowledge of anyone's alignment but our own. Plus we've got scummers (like you, nothing personal but I think you're one of them) that are trying to mislead us. As a townie, I'm constantly worried there'll be a mislynch which casts suspicion on the wrong person, causing another mislynch. You seem to not be worried at all and are saying you're confident that the town's going to win. I can't see myself feeling that way as town in a game where there are still a few scums left, so I find your "confidence" scummy.

[Setael]

I think that you're quick to clear MoS, something that is the main heart of your case against me.

Hmm... I disagree. The fact that you unvoted MoS with such little reason could point to you 2 being scum together, and I haven't disregarded that possibility. I just don't think it's likely.

Do you consider your statement, quoted above, to be enough reason to clear MoS?

Nope. But I did notice that you didn't answer my question about it. The goal of that was to get your opinion on something you're avoiding answering for some reason. Instead, you just throw it back at me every time. Minus 1 townie point.

Yet you've just done so, far more clearly than I ever did, and you must know you have, since you quoted your own statement.

You keep saying I've cleared him, but it's still not true. I think it's more likely that he's town for several reasons, but it's also possible he's scum. I don't deny you've pointed out some interesting things about him. However, as I've said a lot of those things I think MoS would've been more careful about if he was scum. There's also the chance that you're distancing from him. So no, you shouldn't fool yourself into thinking that I've cleared him. I won't clear him until he's card flipped.

You replaced Flare and one of your first actions was to accuse me of being scum, without having constructed a case against me.

You should know something. I had the case. I knew what I thought you'd done that was scummy. What I didn't have time for was all these rebuttals that I knew would be necessary. I had no doubt that these last couple of pages was exactly what would happen, and I knew I needed the time to answer you. I'm not stupid. I knew what would likely happen if you were able to make these convincing "defenses" and then I wasn't able to answer for days. So I waited until I had a little more time. You still may have convinced the town and will get out of a lynch, but I did what I could to be available to answer the outpouring I knew would come.

I go at things the opposite way, as the post you keep referring to shows. I look at the evidence, and present my findings, and sometimes I end up convincing myself of the opposite of what I thought I was going to find. I was voting MoS at the start of that post, and I thought I was going to confirm my own suspicions, in honesty. If I'd had a plan to "clear MoS" (which unvoting him and saying that there was evidence in his favour does not do, and you should know that), then why would I have bothered with including information that could be seen as detrimental to him? What is the advantage to scum in providing evidence on behalf of someone YOU, Setael, are arguing is town?

Except you're smart enough to do things that seem on the surface to not give scum an advantage. If you think that I believe scum never does anything that looks like it wouldn't be to scum's advantage in order to look more town, you're not giving me much credit.

What's interesting about this is you're trying to change my case into me saying that you shouldn't have unvoted MoS. That's not accurate. I don't care that you unvoted MoS - a townie would do that. I don't care (much) that your reasons for unvoting MoS didn't seem good enough - a townie would do that too if they're being sloppy or strapped for time. What I think is scummy is that you cleared MoS, but then didn't clear Zorg when you had the same evidence against him. I don't think you were defending/buddying up to MoS, I think you were avoiding defending and/or distancing from Zorg/BM. So all this emphasis on MoS just looks like distraction.

We have evidence. Your fatalistic attitude seems to indicate that you view Mafia as a guessing game, and your playstyle here is certainly bearing it out. Mafia is NOT a guessing game. It is a game of gauging reactions, of finding inconsistencies (like MoS decrying the Person C tell when he committed it himself, like you saying that I cleared MoS when you've done that more blatantly), and I think that we've derived a lot of information from this wagon. You don't seem worried about a mislynch, despite your comments, because you're not even curious enough to do a reread. Your actions betray your lack of worry.

I wouldn't say that I see mafia as a guessing game, but I do recognize that both sides do their best and then see who believes who. I might not be able to convince the other townies to see what I'm seeing, but I can try. By expecting me to forget the points I brought up against you, this entire paragraph applies to you. You are using inconsistencies made by MoS and myself to distract from your own. It's so odd that you keep telling me to reread when I JUST read. I've probably read this game more recently than any player. Besides that, when do you think I'd be able to read? I'm spending every spare mafia minute responding to you.

You're right that I'm not worried, however, because in the end this is just a game. I guess I should've said "I don't like when there's a mislynch" rather than I'm worried about such. If you manage to wiggle out of this lynch and come up scum later at end game I will say "Well done, Bookitty. That was impressive." If you are lynched and come up town, rather than being pissed I would expect you to say "The Town did a good job" or maybe "I could've done better as scum". If you are lynched and come up town, I will feel really dumb and at endgame I'll say to you "Sorry Bookitty. I was wrong." And we'll laugh. Because it's a game. And I don't get "worried" about games. The best I can do is try to find scum and get them lynched. I might be wrong about my suspicions, but it's not going to keep me up at night. Sure, I'd like to win, and therefore I'd like to be right about your alignment. I'm more sure you're scum than anyone else, so for now I'm happy seeing you lynched today.

So no, I don't mind being lynched, because I do think town has enough information from your wagon on me to win without me. And I'm confident in that.

Yeah, you keep saying that. I'm confident you'll come up scum, so it doesn't mean much to me. However, even if you were right and I'm scum and you come up town so I get lynched, how does that win the game for the town? Are you saying my scum buddies have been outed? If so, by all means, who are they? MoS and BM? Really? It makes no sense to say that me being lynched as scum wins the game for the town when we've only managed to lynch one scum. There's a reason you're saying things that town wouldn't say. You're scum. If I'm wrong and the town follows all this propoganda of yours, we'll both get mislynched. But I don't think I'm wrong, so I'm not sweating it.

[Setael]

I think we're done here. There isn't much there to respond to, except that I will say that when I said "It's all a guessing game since we have no prior knowledge of anyone's alignment but our own" I was using a figure of speech. Sure, I know we have evidence to work with, and there's more to it than guessing, but what I meant is that often townies' assumptions are wrong since they're not based on fact or concrete knowledge. Hence, you're never really

sure

and you could always be on a mislynch wagon.

Also, you are wrong to say that I have abandoned my suspicions of Battle Mage. Quite the opposite.

[Setael]

You're sounding like a broken record with that last statement there.

Also, you're making false assumptions about why I said our back and forth is done. Rather, I think it's time for some other players to comment.

[Setael]

She's very open with her thoughts and posts, she was on the scum lynch, and she refuted the townie lynches with the exception of the Yamahako slip-up, which a lot of people seem to have been on.

Wow, you're right. Almost like she already knew everyone's alignment and could therefore do exactly what would make her look good later. That's scum's main advantage, you know? You're foolish if you think they don't use it.

[Setael]

Ummm.... if Bookitty's a mason, why is Simenon voting for her?

I believe this means either Boo or Sim is the "untrustworthy" mason. My money's still on Bookitty being scum.

Just in case I'm wrong,

unvote

. I'd like to get everyone's take on the claim before any hammering happens.

[Setael]

Ok so I'm confused by a few things. Simenon, you seem to have good reasons to think Boo is scum. Mason conversations as well as in game play. These are ALL outweighed by the fact that Niv didn't object to the lynch before Boo claimed?

Also, I don't know about everyone else but nothing gave me the impression Ether was a mason until you (Sim) stated it outright. I am bothered by you trying to pin that on Bookitty and/or Ether.

Thats dumb logic. Or is it scum logic? I sincerely hope my vote is on you.

Amazing as this may sound, assuming Boo and Sim are both masons, they might just be genuinely suspicious of each other!
It does not mean 1 of them has to be untrustworthy, but it does indicate that they have some reason to think it is worthwhile to off the other one.
Either way, the fact that you are potentially trying to set up multiple lynches based on an obvious inaccuracy, is intensely scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Setael

So obviously scum its not even funny anymore.

BM

Interesting. Sure looks like you're distracting, BM. I unvoted because I wanted some discussion from the claimed masons before Boo was hammered. If Boo is NOT the scum mason, then one of the others is, so it's obviously helpful to get their take on it.

I'm not following your logic on this. If you think I'm scum, and scum with Korejora no less, then why would you think I'd ask her questions that are "solid points" or worth responding to?

Really, Boo? We're supposed to believe you would never distance in this way?

I am now torn. If I was wrong about Bookitty and she is a town mason, it makes sense for Simenon now to change his vote to MoS, since if Boo comes up town, the odds become higher that Simenon is the scum mason. Plus, he's not making sense to me. The Niv suspicion being his first reason to move off Bookitty, and then instead of going for Niv he votes MoS. Again could be because any mason who comes up town narrows it down. Plus he outed Ether regardless of what he says.

Simenon, please explain your MoS vote. Listing his voting record is not good enough for me, especially considering recent events.

[Setael]

I've been thinking about the setup re: the masons, and I think it's highly unlikely that there's one scum group, a member of which is one of the masons and knows all their identities. Makes the game much too one-sided and breaks the whole reason to have a mason group. I do think there are other possibilities that still make the other mason "untrustworthy".

One possibility is there are 2 scum groups, one of which contains a mason and therefore knows the identity of the other masons. The other group does not have this insight. The scum group that knows about the masons would likely be weaker in other respects to balance. For example, the godfather and RB might both be in the group that doesn't know the masons' identities. The group containing the mason might also be smaller, maybe just 2 people. Could also be solo (SK basically).

Another possibility is the "untrustworthy" mason is neutral - working on his own with a separate agenda. This agenda could be to out all the masons, and if he is able to accomplish this he wins. I only thought of this possibility after Simenon outed Ether, which doesn't make sense unless he has ulterior motives of some kind. This would make him a kind of rat or informer, but not scum. Something like this would make sense. His win condition could also be simpler - something like he has to be the last surviving mason. This would motivate him to get the other masons lynched and/or outed and therefore vulnerable to NKs. Both of these agendas would fit Simenon's recent play. I'm sure there are other possibilities, but I'm starting to think the untrustworthy mason is most likely neutral, or in some way anti-town, but not part of a scum group.

I have been suggesting you indirectly outed ether, which you did if anybody was observant enough to go back and look at a couple pages.

I am under the impression you are a more careful player than this. Did you ever at any time think it wouldn't be noticed, and therefore shouldn't be made obvious by YOU? Did you ever consider letting ether be the one to make it obvious? It makes no sense, and I need you to expound your thought process behind calling attention to ether's claim (from your POV) or outing ether (from my POV).

The rest of your post tries to prove what has already been admitted- I did think you were scum.

What changed your mind? I asked you the question about Niv because the only reason I've seen for you to move your vote off Bookitty was your suspicion at Niv's play on her wagon. Do you still think Boo is scum, or at least the "untrustworthy mason" or no? Your suspicions of Niv and then your weak reasoning for voting MoS does not seem strong enough for you to move your vote off Bookitty considering all the reasons you've now given for suspecting her.

[Setael]

Your half-answers are getting tedious. Why do you suspect Bookitty "less so" now? Not because she claimed, surely. So what are your reasons?

2 questions re: this statement:

Part of the reason I unvoted her is that I don't think the town would lynch a claimed mason. The town needs someone to die.

1) Why did you wagon Boo in the first place, then? If you think the town won't lynch a mason, why did you let her wagon get to -1 without ever trying to stop it or start a wagon on someone else? Did you really think she'd never claim?

2) Why aren't you giving a better reason for voting MoS, especially if you think the town needs a lynch so urgently?

[Setael]

On the untrustworthy mason, I think it is possible that the untrustworthy mason is a mafia traitor, who can't communicate with mafia at night, but still knows who the mafia are, and who wins with the mafia.

I hadn't thought of that, and I think it's very likely the case. Which leads me to think that we shouldn't lynch any of the masons at this point. Mafia will be motivated to NK them which will narrow it down for us, and if they don't we'll have masons kept alive at endgame which is nothing but helpful to town. If we end up needing to lynch among the 4, we've got a 1 in 4 shot (I would venture to say 1 in 2 since it's likely Bookitty or Simenon) so that's great odds.

On that note, I don't think it's wise to lynch any masons today. Instead, we'll either make the scum waste their NKs on them and possibly hit their traitor, or they'll leave them alive and we'll eventually snipe the traitor ourselves and win with confirmed masons that the scum won't have enough nights to get rid of.

If there is a vig, I highly suggest you not take it upon yourself to kill any of the masons, even if you think you know which one is the traitor. Let mafia waste their NKs narrowing it down for us. Up to you though, of course.

In light of recent events, I need a reread.

[Setael]

Pending time for a reread, I'll vote someone I think is scum independent of all mason goings on.

unvote; vote: Korejora

[Setael]

Setael, why do you think mafia will try to kill the masons?

Because if they don't and we then manage to lynch the one untrustworthy one, we are left with 3 confirmed masons at end game. Mafia can't risk that. My guess is they will pick off the towniest seeming masons and just hope they don't hit their traitor (or whatever the "untrustworthy" one is). Either way, it makes no sense to be lynching masons right now. If we end up choosing wrong, we have done a huge favor for the mafia by getting rid of one of the confirmed town players. If we choose right, the mafia are then free to take out all the claimed masons without fear of killing one of their own. Any way we choose, we're making the mafia's job easier, so ynching a mason = lose/lose.

[Setael]

Why in the world, if I was a mafia traitor as you claim, try to deflect from your lynch?

Because if Bookitty was lynched and came up protown mason, I (and I'm probably not the only one) would be pretty sure you are the "untrustworthy" mason.

[Setael]

Nobody then had expressed any opinion that I was the "untrustworthy mason", and if I had really meant to save Bookitty, I would have unvoted her and tried to use my masonhood to save her.

Except for Niv. And everyone who has been at least vaguely suspicious of you ever since that exchange. I refuse to believe that you think that issue has been completely forgotten.

Use your head.

No need to be a jerk.

[Setael]

I am not up to date - this is in response to Boo's post 2003. I'll catch up tomorrow and post.

I can see Simenon, as the traitor mason, misspeaking and calling Ether a "confirmed innocent". Only the traitor would be inclined to call their mason buddies "confirmed innocent" seeing as none of them are and only the traitor knows which are innocent.

However, I find it hard to believe that Simenon would call Ether "confirmed innocent" in order to clue in the mafia that he's the traitor and shouldn't be NK'd. Nor do I think he would do that in order to clue the mafia into the fact that Ether is ok to NK because she's not the traitor. Why would he risk that? There would be no need, since the mafia (knowing their traitor is among the masons) is not motivated to NK one of them at all. This is probably why Niv and Simenon are still with us.

That being said, I could be wrong. Maybe Simenon thought a statement like that would be picked up by the mafia and missed by townies. Maybe he thought it worth the risk to get the mafia to start picking off the claimed masons, while being sure to not hit their traitor. Putting it in that light it makes more sense, since if all the "trustworthy" masons are alive at endgame, scum has no chance. It's basically the duty of the untrustworthy one to out them all and get them killed. Either way, I'm definitely leaning toward Simenon as the traitor mason. That does not mean I think he should be lynched today.

Just like we could be wrong about which mason is the traitor, the mafia could also be wrong if they decide to start NKing claimed masons. I don't think the mafia are going to spend NKs on someone who might be their traitor, which is why I still think we should not lynch a mason today. If we happen to lynch correctly and the traitor dies, our masons are then all vulnerable to NKs. It is invaluable to the town to have masons alive at end game, so I see no benefit to wagoning masons. Rather, we have negative side effects if we guess wrong and kill a protown mason, and negative side effects if we guess right and kill the traitor this early.

Simenon seems to have thought this through already, as he said he unvoted Bookitty in part because he doesn't think the town will be willing to lynch a mason. IMO, this implies that he knows the setup because he's the traitor. Any of the other masons who don't have this knowledge wouldn't be so sure what the town is willing to do, since they're unsure of what exactly they're dealing with in their "untrustworthy" comrade. Basically, Simenon's play reeks of insider knowledge. I think he's the traitor. I also don't think he should be lynched today since even if we're right, it still benefits scum which makes it anti-town.

I think the best course would be for everyone to continue analyzing the play of all the claimed masons, while not letting it consume the thread. We need to be looking elsewhere to find the actual mafia. I will reread within the next 2 days.

[Setael]

Look at it this way, and maybe it will make more sense: I put myself in the "mason traitor" shoes. I think about all the insider knowledge I would have, what my goals would be, and what my play would likely be like. I would have been able to think through the setup and have made some conclusions based on it. I would be the only mason that had this inside knowledge and foresight.

You are the only one whose play I see fitting those shoes. Outing Ether the way you did can only be explained if you are the traitor. Your unvote of Bookitty can only be explained if you are the traitor. Make sense?

[Setael]

Ok so I'm now caught up. First off,

unvote

. After rereading, the Zorg wagon and BM’s analysis post (1965) really stood out, and I’m pretty sure BM is scum. I think Setael1 owes the town an apology for not seeing how scummy Zorg was and for being the catalyst toward a Zeppo lynch happening and effectively derailing the Zorg wagon. That was really bad. More on that later. This post is going to be long. I’m first going to go over BM’s recent analysis and then go over the Zorg wagon that failed right before BM replaced Zorg.

Referring to my post 1630, BM says “Then Setael OMGUS suspects Bookitty.” The post he’s referring to was my FIRST post after replacing in and rereading. Bookitty hadn’t expressed any suspicion of me since I hadn’t posted yet. I don’t think you can consider it OMGUS for me to suspect someone who was suspicious of the person I replaced. It’s really reaching to call my FIRST post in the game OMGUS.

BM then says (without quoting the post he’s referring to) that after Niv confirmed Boo’s claim, “Setael makes an obviously misleading post”
Let me quote the post for you, since BM didn’t bother.

Ummm.... if Bookitty's a mason, why is Simenon voting for her?

I believe this means either Boo or Sim is the "untrustworthy" mason. My money's still on Bookitty being scum.

Just in case I'm wrong, unvote. I'd like to get everyone's take on the claim before any hammering happens.

BM, now that we have the post here in front of us, please expound on why it is misleading. I really have a problem with you saying “Setael then makes a misleading post” without quoting it or saying what you think is misleading about it.

Ether is also revealed as part of the mason clique

I find it highly scummy that BM doesn’t include in her analysis any kind of comment or opinion on WHO outed ether.

By post 1881 I’ve discovered an awesome time saving device. Rather than scrolling up long posts to find out whether they were written by Setael, its actually possible to read a sentence or two, spot the horrific attempt at logic, and discover that it was a post of hers.

This is especially odd coming right after the statements "Post 1774 by Setael is pretty sound.” and “I have to say, Setael’s arguments on this page seem more convincing.” BM, what exactly were you referring to? Is this referring to the entire exchange between myself and Bookitty? Do you consider EVERY post a horrific attempt at logic? When Kore asked you for an example, the only one you gave was:

I am now torn. If I was wrong about Bookitty and she is a town mason, it makes sense for Simenon now to change his vote to MoS, since if Boo comes up town, the odds become higher that Simenon is the scum mason. Plus, he's not making sense to me. The Niv suspicion being his first reason to move off Bookitty, and then instead of going for Niv he votes MoS. Again could be because any mason who comes up town narrows it down. Plus he outed Ether regardless of what he says.

The logic in the quote above is atrocious beyond words. Capish?

Did this ONE post warrant the attack that within every statement I make there's a "horrific attempt at logic"? If there are more, please give examples. At this point it just looks like you're trying to paint me as scummy without a real reason for doing so.

Even this ONE example, you're completely misconstruing my meaning, which only became evident when you finally explained what you thought was wrong in the logic.

Do you think that the fact that Simenon and Niv are voting for Bookitty means that 1 side must be anti-town?
Equally do you think that it is reasonable to suppose that Simenon would choose to run up a large Bandwagon on Bookitty, if he DIDNT WANT BOOKITTY LYNCHED, because it would make it more likely that he was an anti-town mason?

I’m not saying it’s the reason he ran up the bandwagon, I’m saying it’s the reason he unvoted. You’re twisting my logic in order to mock it. What explanation can you give for Simenon changing his mind about Boo and unvoting? I think this is a definite possibility and I think it's very scummy that you try to paint it as illogical.

Quick question for elmo:

(I previously thought it might possibly be Niv, because of needlessly outing the mason group.)

What do you think of niv now? And what about sim? Who do you think outed ether and why?

Ok moving on to the Zorg wagon:

Post 359 – Flare agrees with Zorg’s MOS case and votes MOS. This is the first post that made me (as Setael1) think Zorg and Flare were not likely mafia together, since I didn't think they would link themselves so obviously. At the time, I did not have time to reread. However, based on Zorg's bad reasons to vote MoS and then Flare jumping on, it seemed likely one of them was scum.

I'm going to quote several players' cases on Zorg which have been forgotten over the days and need to be resurrected. Some of these players are dead, some are still with us. Many of the quotes I have not commented on, but am listing as a reminder of the points that were made against Zorg that I think should be brought back into the light.

I don't love the fact that both Flare and Zorg jumped on the MoS wagon while openly admitting that they needed to re-read him to be sure. Leaving room to backtrack, methinks - it's not like MoS has written a novel in this game, a re-read wouldn't be too much to ask before voting. FoS: Zorg since I'm already voting Flare.

Erg0's protection of Zoneace is interesting. I'm liking Mastermind less atm-his last post was simply copying what Erg0 had already said. Plus he seemed VERY confident that Zoneace isnt scum...

Complete fail. Erg0 didn't defend Zoneace, he pointed out that this is his playstyle. Since his play is following his playstyle, it doesn't have much of an effect on his alignment.

Conversely, your notable jump onto the MoS wagon does make you look opportunistic and scummy.

Post 433 Zorg unvotes MoS – very interesting. This was very likely because of the negative attention Zorg was getting from several different players for his MoS case, as well as for Flare's jump on it. Beastly mentions this in his next post:

Zorg unvotes MoS wouldn't be because a few ppl have cast suspicion on the MoS wagon per chance?

Zorg: Scummy, but too bold with his vote to be really embracing the noobscum ideal.

I'm curious here for Zorg-centric reasons. Elaborate?

In response ergo says:

Actually, I may have to retract that statement. I did a skim-through on Zorg yesterday for my own reference, and had the impression that he was being less cautious than I would expect from noobscum. Looking again just now I can see that I was probably mistaken, as he was 6th on the ZONEACE wagon and his vote for MoS was made amongst much equivocation. The only vote of his that was slightly bold was his vote on Celtic, but that came in the face of the big wagon on Flameaxe. I also note that he FoSed TS early and then followed her vote onto MoS, which is inconsistent. Upgrade Zorg back to scummy.

* Zorg chimes in attacks the Flameaxe wagon for one that developed on Hmrox. Note the defence of Hmrox. Man this is scummy aswell
Zorg wrote:
I'm no expert on Mafia, but i'd been taught that scum don't usually claim vanilla, because often, it doesnt change alot.

say's it's a town-tell for Zone. That strikes me as not being a town-tell but more one that Zorg knows he's actually town = hence Zorg is scum.

Unvote, Vote: The Venerable Zorg

I think we need to apply some pressure here. The snippet Yamahako quoted in his last post has me thinking that Zorg is just looking for every possible place to apply pressure and fling about suspicion. He's been doing this pretty much all game.

I find it amazing how many people are so quick to jump to his defence, when his play has been so dubious. Yes he might be an experienced player, but that doesn't mean he cannot be scum. His last post is a shining example of blatant opportunism. He sees Yamahako attacking me, and jumps on the argument, as he appeared to do with Erg0 earlier (though i admit that that case wasn't as solid as i thought it was). No matter that he clearly didn't go and read the post in question for himself. I mean, is this sort of jumpy, opportunistic, unintelligent sort of play what you normally expect of a guy with his mafia-credentials.
I'm seeing 'scum' written all over him...

There are a lot of problems with this post. First, after all this you'd think he'd vote MoS but he doesn't. Probably for the same reasons he unvoted him, which was to avoid attracting negative attention. I also think it's odd that rather than defend his own play and/or defend against the accusations against him, he just deflects by accusing MoS. And then doesn't even vote him.

Zorg infact has just pinged me again with this quote:

I'd rather see a Yama-lynch than a White-Lynch, but i'm sure there're better lynches than either out there.

A lurker for example.

Mastermind of Sin wrote:

Why is TVZ getting away with being scum? We should vote him more, plz.

What he said. Zorg is wagonny, over-cautious and inconsistent.

Zorg's response to this is as follows (several posts later):

oh of course. i mean, i'm not currently on a bandwagon (nor even voting atall) and i've only cast a few reasonable votes all game. Yup, really wagonny. And when i have voted, i've been really inconsistent. I mean, i've been jumping with my vote and suspicion so much, its no wonder i have accumulated a reasonably sized wagon. Its not as if i've been asking people to look at 1 player all game or anything. And i guess it is physically impossible for Mastermind of Sin to be scum.

It truly concerns me that so many people are going along with what this guy says, and so few people are actually questionning his motives, even when his vote has been totally unvalidated with reasonable evidence.

Whatever-i'm not blind.

Vote: Mastermind of Sin

This post basically says “My play has been more that of careful, wise scum, so why are you guys voting me?” It also brings up the question, once again, of why Zorg ever unvoted MoS in the first place.

Anyways Zorg's gone to ground and is possibly scum but I think White may well be scum aswell.

We then get a very interesting post from Simenon, who has yet to comment on Zorg at all.

Yamahako, Setael, Flare and White are higly suspect.

Interesting that I happen to know that ALL FOUR OF THESE are Town. The rest of you know that three were since they’re all dead. I’m the fourth as Flare, just so no one’s confused. Also odd that Simenon doesn’t list or comment on zorg who’s been getting a lot of attention.

Aimee points this out in 814.

Yamahako, Setael, Flare and White are higly suspect.

Zorg?

I'd really like it if people would stop hopping off wagons just because the wagonee is lurking. That just makes them more scummy!

That's actually a good point. Zorg hasn't done anything remotely pro-townish since my original vote

unvote, vote Zorg

Zeppo, what reason is there not to go aggressively after Zorg? I believe he is scum, and the more aggressively we pushed his lynch, the more he stopped posting altogether until we called him out for lurking.

Unvote, Vote: White

The inconsistencies TS pointed out seem really blaring. Since I do tend to hate on the Oppressor, I could see him trying to buddy up to me if he was scum. A valid point was made, and I'll follow up on it.

IGMEOY: Zorg

You're not off the hook, yet.

MoS’ reason for unvoting Zorg was TS’ post against White. I'm sure a lot could be read into this, but as far as the Zorg wagon goes, it's possible that TS' post against White was an attempt at distracting from the Zorg wagon. If so, it worked on MoS. He didn't change his vote because of anything town-like Zorg did, but rather because of TS' case on White and since we know both of their alignment(TS scum; White town), it seems likely that the whole thing was geared at pulling the spotlight away from Zorg.

More later. However:
Quote:
@ Simenon - hey, with Fonzie's vote switch, you are now one of those suspicious players that are on a 1-2 person wagon!

Yes, you keep reinforcing this for some reason. Have you ever actually considered what I'm actually saying?

I'm very much opposed to the White lynch. Therefore:
Unvote
Vote TVZ

Sim voting TVZ made me wonder here. If Sim is the traitor, I'd think he'd push a different wagon if Zorg is scum. However, a few posts later he votes TS so I can hardly conclude that TVZ is town just because Sim voted him. There are all kinds of possibilities. Sim might not be the traitor, the setup might be different than I'm thinking, or Simenon as traitor was distancing from both TVZ and TS. Also possible that Zorg wasn't scum, but I find that highly unlikely after rereading.

I think TS is scum who felt an easy wagon on White and pushed it just a little too hard. However, I still think Zorg is more likely scum than TS. They could easily be scumbuddies, though. I don't remember either of them ever commenting on the other. Scum often forget to comment on each other because they don't want to be associated together.

@MoS - I really, really don't see what's so special about Zorg. Whatever scent of scum he gives off, I must be immune to it. I read all the posts, and I just don't get it. But then again, I thought White was scum for sure, but obviously I was quite mistaken.

Or because you're scum and don't want to commit to a position against him. If you push him too hard, he might get lynched. If you defend him, we'll call you out on the obvious bullshit and you'll be screwed. So you try to sit the fence and claim ignorance for as long as you can. Well it's not going to work with me.

Unvote, Vote: Toaster Strudel

Zorg can come tomorrow.

Willing to lynch either TS or MoS today. I can't understand how we could lynch anybody else.

Simenon is still completely ignoring the Zorg case, even though it’s the biggest and most prominent wagon. He vocally says the Zeppo wagon is stupid several times, so if he disagreed with the Zorg wagon, why not do the same? Why just ignore it? I think because he didn't want to defend Zorg too obviously. He knew Zeppo would come up town so it's ok to obviously defend him. But if Zorg was lynched and came up scum, that would put a negative spotlight on Simenon if he was vocal about Zorg's lynch. So he just ignored it entirely.

Why don't you try reading all the cases presented against him. Why don't you also look at the fact that Zorg is now lurking since we've been distracted by the cop claims. Why don't you also just read Zorg's freaking posts and find out for yourself instead of being a lazy ass who is determined to lynch a claimed cop Day 1, which has got to be one of the stupidest plans ever, even IF TS *IS* scum!

Aimee says she is working on a Zorg case. She never provides it. This was possibly due to inactivity rather than a link between she and Zorg. I'm thinking if Zorg is scum, Korejora is likely Town due to Aimee pushing the Zorg wagon and recent BM vs. Kore posts. However, there's a chance BM and Kore are distancing as scum buddies, and also possible that Aimee was distancing from Zorg. I doubt it. I'm leaning town on Kore after my reread.

Zeppo is lynched instead of Zorg, and BM replaces in.

When Zeppo was at 6 votes, the wagon was as follows:
Ether (likely protown mason)
Setael (NK’d as town)
Mastermind of Sin (likely town if Zorg is scum)
JDodge
Niv (claimed mason)
Flameaxe (NK’d as protown mason)

The 7th vote is added by Kaleidoscsope who says merely “We need a lynch, so Unvote Vote: Zeppo”. This vote could've been scum hoping to secure a town lynch (Zeppo) over a Zorg lynch. The other possible scum on the wagon simply by virtue of deduction is JDodge.

I think BM is scum and I think his lynch will gain much info for the town.

vote: BM

[Setael]

It's been awhile since anyone believed the "untrustworthy" mason is able to talk to the rest of the mafia. However it's set up, that is highly unlikely.

[Setael]

Sim, I'd like your thoughts on both Zorg & BM. I can't find where you've really commented on that role once all game.

[Setael]

I never found a solid difference between zorg and zeppo. They're wagons seemed, and still do seem, identical to me, and anybody who is looking to lynch both seems highly suspect.

I don't think your post history supports this statement. A couple times you asked why when someone voted for Zorg but as for zeppo:

The Zeppo wagon is incredibly dumb.

The people on the wagon are almost entirely terrible and Zeppo has done too many town things to be scum in my mind right now.

Behold!

Zeppo (6) -- Ether, Setael,

Mastermind of Sin, JDodge, Niv, Flameaxe

Bold implying those players are scum.

So... if you never saw a difference between the two, why were you so much more vocally opposed to the Zeppo wagon? And why did you (as Bookitty pointed out) vote Zorg? My point (which still stands, regardless of what you say) is you seemed to avoid commenting on the Zorg wagon while being REALLY vocal about others. The fact that you voted Zorg doesn't prove me wrong, it just proves that you're a liar. (Or forgetful because you're "bored" as you said).

Sim, I'd like your thoughts on both Zorg & BM. I can't find where you've really commented on that role once all game.

role?

fishing much?

That's a pretty scummy attempt at accusing me of role fishing BM. How else would you prefer I refer to you and Zorg collectively? You have the same role since you replaced him, right? So remind me why I can't say "that role?"

[Setael]

Zeppo was the guy who got lynched; his wagon was more relevant for me to comment on.

The comments I am talking about were all made before Zeppo was lynched though, so how can this be a valid reason/excuse?

BM, time to claim.

[Setael]

Zoneace, you forget that scum need to put a lot of thought into their "final suspicions" post. Only a townie could just lay it out on the spot.

[Setael]

Really Tornado? How would you expect a scum to behave in this situation?

[Setael]

see post 2011, BM.

[Setael]

I think Sir Tornado and BM are scum buddies. BM is trying to distance from Sir T with his vote, and Sir T feels like he needs to scrape up a good solid reason to hammer. IMO if Sir T was a townie, he would've hammered in post 2084. Well, in 2089 at the latest.

[Setael]

I find it interesting that MoS lists Sir T as the most townie player in the game.

MoS, what did you think of Sir T's posts before BM was lynched, as well as BM's last minute vote for Sir T?

Also, your description of JDodge sounds a lot like how he always plays. I'm guessing you've played with him before, so the fact that he lurks and doesn't contribute much shouldn't automatically be a scum tell on him I would think. Any other reasons he is your #1 scum candidate?

[Setael]

I've never played with Sir T as scum. This is the first time for me.

vote: Sir Tornado

[Setael]

Did you really expect MoS to think you were town the entire game? Would you not have found that a little odd?

[Setael]

Bookitty/Setael2, you've both actually been traitors; can you comment on what to expect?

Good question. I hadn't really thought about that. I did nothing to breadcrumb or hint to the mafia that I was their traitor. I was less concerned about the mafia NKing me than I was about keeping the mafia from getting lynched. Their survival was necessary for our win and mine wasn't, so I considered myself lower priority than them. Every post I made was aimed at subtly keeping suspicion off them, or on others. I avoided joining the wagon when the first one of them went down, and then stayed pretty neutral on the second one. There were only two so I had to be pretty cautious, whereas there are likely more in this game.

If it's Sim, he's much more experienced than I am and might not feel like he needs to be as cautious as I was. I think any traitor, though, is going to be less concerned about how scummy they look and more concerned about the mafia's survival.

[Setael]

Sir T, wanna give a reason why you think I'm scum? Or is it just pure omgus?

[Setael]

Niv, just so you know, there are probably a lot of us who agree with you that Simenon is the most likely "untrustworthy" mason. That doesn't mean he should be today's lynch.

What do you think of Sir Tornado?

[Setael]

I think you are scum due to elimination processes. I find it highly unlikely that Kore is scum due to her part in setting the BM lynch in motion and Zoneace, I've maintained from D1 isn't scum based on meta amongst other things. Between Elmo and you, I find you scummier. Perhaps this a playstyle thing, because I was convinced Setael 1 was scummy before she died too, however I have you above Elmo and below MoS and JDodge.

I find it odd that suddenly Sir T thinks I'm scum, and his only reason is "elimination process". I think if he was a townie, he would've come up with SOME kind of a case. I know that whenever I'm a townie, since I don't know anything I can always come up with a few cases that turn out to be totally wrong, but nonetheless it's better than having NOTHING but process of elimination on someone, which is likely to only be done by scum who's afraid to make BS cases that are full of holes. Easier to just throw out process of elimination scum lists so you don't have to defend cases that you know are completely fabricated. Townies don't fear this since, though they may be wrong, they aren't lying.

So I give you.... *drum roll*.... Sir Tornado's most likely scum buddy based on his process of elimination:

POSSIBLE SCUMS

JDodge
Korejora (replacing Aimee)
Sir Tornado
Mastermind of Sin
ZONEACE
Elmo

MASONS

Simenon
Ether
Niv
Bookitty

I doubt he's scum with Kore or Zoneace or he likely wouldn't have written them off as town like that. He put me above Elmo but below MoS and JDodge. That puts Elmo as the most neutral, and imo Elmo is therefore the most likely to be Sir T's scum buddy. Simple, yes. But quite probably accurate. A reread of Elmo shows he's been laying pretty low and playing pretty safe. His recentish Sir T vote could easily be distancing.

So our final two scum are Sir Tornado and Elmo. I have no idea if I'm right, but it'll be sweet if it turns out I am.

[Setael]

Niv, are you reading the thread? Why do you think TS fished for mason identities if the mafia already know them all?

[Setael]

We were in mini 486 together viewtopic.php?t=5886 and though you may not have given big cases on people, you gave a good reason for every FOS, and you didn't do anything by process of elimination. Maybe link a game where you did that as town? Or link a game where you did it as scum, that would work too

[Setael]

Ok, I see what you're saying. However, I think my point still stands with a bit of alteration. Rather than saying you (if town) should've been able to come up with a case, I'll amend it to you should've been able to come up with some kind of reason other than just elimination.

[Setael]

Bookitty, MoS was one of the main ones pushing a Zeppo and then BM lynch. I take it you think the tunneling he did on Zeppo was bussing? I find that hard to believe. Zoneace is a possibility, but I think MoS is town.

Looking over Simenon's posts, he's been pretty mum about Sir Tornado and I could definitely see Sir T being scum if Sim's the traitor. Until we know Sim's alignment, I can't draw any conclusions from this, but it's a definite possibility.

Simenon, care to give an opinion of Sir Tornado?

[Setael]

I think Sir T is town. You and Jdodge are on his wagon.

What changed since Nov. 16, when he was on your list of players you were willing to wagon? Are you still willing to wagon him, or has something changed your mind?

And in the future, don't ask me for opinions if in the previous comment you assume I'm scum.

Consider it a rhetorical question - mostly meant to point out that in spite of all the attention on Sir T of late, you've avoided ever giving an opinion.

[Setael]

Why do you think MoS is town?

Zeppo came up scum. That kind of thing can change an opinion or two.

[Setael]

There's a big difference between suspecting someone is scum and then having them cardflip scum and being sure.

I think that post I made about MoS pulling off Zorg because of TS' case actually makes it even less likely MoS is scum. It'd be odd scum play to pull off one scum buddy's wagon to follow another scum buddy and linking himself to them both so blatantly. I've never seen MoS as scum, but I'd think he'd be more subtle than that.

I could be wrong - maybe MoS would do that as scum, and maybe he would bus Zorg and then BM the way he pushed for that lynch. I just doubt it.

@Simenon: Where did you give a reason? The only other thing you said is "You and Jdodge are on his wagon." That's why you now think Sir T is town? Does that mean you think I'm scum? If so, do you have a reason? If JDodge and/or me are scum, did you not consider the possibility that one or both of us are bussing Sir T?

[Setael]

Give me a break. Here's Simenon's post:

This isn't true at all.

I think Sir T is town. You and Jdodge are on his wagon.

And in the future, don't ask me for opinions if in the previous comment you assume I'm scum.

Do you see in there what reason he gave for changing his mind about Sir T? The only thing I see that is even a possibility is the statement "You and JDodge are on his wagon".

So by asking if that's what I'm referring to, how am I trying to link myself to you?

That was a mistake, JDodge. It makes no sense for you to accuse me and vote based on that out of the blue, when my post made perfect sense in light of simenon's. I'm guessing all of Sim's suspicion of you is just distancing so when he comes up traitor we won't look at you. Too bad you just blew all his carefully laid plans, eh?

[Setael]

Sim, how many scums do you think there are left? I guess if there are less then I was thinking I should agree with you that bussing is now less likely.

Your idiocy is astounding.

No need to be an ass hat, JDodge.

[Setael]

Sir Tornado, can you reconcile MoS' play vs. Zorg/BM?

[Setael]

I don't know that Sir Tornado would have pushed so vocally against Battle Mage's lynch (when it really did look inevitable) if he knew Battle Mage was scum. WIFOM, but what would scum gain by doing that except unwanted attention?

Boo, this is the only thing I can find that you've said about Sir T. Do you have any other thoughts on him? It's uncharacteristic of you to dismiss a player entirely based on one WIFOM argument.

[Setael]

Bookitty, what do you think of Sir T's play toward you during the whole mason debate if you look at it from the angle of him being scum who thought YOU were likely his traitor?

[Setael]

The scum would not have known I was a mason until I claimed, assuming the traitor scenario is the correct one, so the argument you make about Sir Tornado's behaviour equally well applies to yours.

Very true. I did not think of the fact that scum wouldn't have known you were a mason during that argument.

Do you no longer think your points were valid against me? Did you think it was a strong, lynchworthy case?

I still think it was a good case and the points are still valid, but Simenon's play on that wagon makes no sense to me if you are the traitor mason. He outed Ether. He denies it, but we all know it. I do not see how a townie could do that and then pretend he didn't (nor do I see a reason for him to do it if he's town). His refusal to answer direct questions afterward and pretty much everything he's said since makes me think he's the traitor mason.

That being said, I could easily be wrong. I agree there is reason to suspect it's Niv, though at this point I think it's more likely he's not paying close attention. I do not think scum would try to get masons lynched when the town has generally agreed that's not what we should be doing right now. I especially don't think the traitor would try to get masons lynched, since it narrows down our choices and would soon lead to us lynching him. More likely he is a town mason who thinks he's pegged the traitor and isn't paying close enough attention to realize that EVEN IF HE'S RIGHT, he still shouldn't be voting Sim right now.

Now that Zorg/BM came up scum, the case I made on you is even more likely to be accurate, since a lot of it was based on you and BM both being scum. However, if it's either you or Niv, I do not understand many of the things Simenon has said/done.

[Setael]

I think the traitor mason would be very motivated to get all the masons outed so the scum know who they are. Seems like that would be one of the main goals of the traitor mason. I think you thought you could pull off blaming Ether and Bookitty for it (like you tried to do).

I recognize that Niv also outed masons at the beginning of the game, so this argument applies to him in a way. The subtle way you did it, and then tried to pretend you didn't and blame Ether and Bookitty looks worse to me than what Niv did.

[Setael]

So essentially, you are saying that I set up the Bookitty lynch so I could get her to claim, giving me an excuse to out Ether? I don't think that was a very good plan. How would I benefit from setting a target on my head? If I really wanted to risk it, why didn't I just out all the masons in an earlier, more convenient time?

It's far-fetched.

No, not at all. I don't think you planned it ahead like that. But when you saw something you could call Ether outing herself, you outed Ether and then pretended you didn't. (That's the scenario anyway - what you're saying is indeed far fetched; what I'm saying isn't).

If I were scum and thought BooKie was acting scummy enough to lynch and get away with, wouldn't I have tried to lynch her before she had claimed (she was on -1 at a point), which was before BooKie traitor scenario came to forefront?

Though that's pure WIFOM, if you're scum, regardless of the fact that she hadn't claimed yet - you'd know there are unclaimed masons out there, any of whom could be the traitor. So no, you might not want to accidentally hammer your traitor (since before all the masons claimed, it could've been anyone not in the regular mafia group). Until the masons all claimed, mafia actually wouldn't want to lynch anyone before they had a chance to claim since they might just be counting on the mason traitor to out all the masons for them. I didn't think of this until just now, but the mafia has had several nights to talk it over, so I'm sure they've covered this topic thoroughly.

[Setael]

If I were scum and thought BooKie was acting scummy enough to lynch and get away with, wouldn't I have tried to lynch her before she had claimed (she was on -1 at a point), which was before BooKie traitor scenario came to forefront?

This is the statement I was calling WIFOM because you're saying "If I was scum, I would do that" when I can say "If you were scum, you'd do the opposite, because we'd expect you to do that." Clearer?

You will notice, that it was me who brought up the idea of the untrustworthy mason being a mafia traitor. If I were really a mafia, and if I knew about existence of mafia traitor, I would not bring it to the notice of town, since that role is not that common. And, no, this is not a WIFOM, since I am not arguing that I am town because I introduced traitor to the discussion. I am just saying that if you think I am scum, you should discard the possibility of the presence of a mafia traitor, because I really had no reason to bring that role into discussion had I been scum and knew about the role's presence.

Who says the mafia knew about the traitor from the beginning? I think it is more likely they know as much about the "untrustworthy" mason as the rest of us do. Doesn't really make sense for their role PM to say "Oh and there are a bunch of masons in this game but one of them is a traitor." Possible, but makes more sense that they'd be left in the dark the same as we were. So your argument goes away since it's based on the assumption that if you were mafia you'd have known about the existence of a traitor. Why were you assuming the mafia would know that?

[Setael]

I'll be repeating myself as well, but I think MoS is town because Zorg/BM came up scum and MoS tunneled on him all game in a way that I don't see as possible bussing.

[Setael]

What I'm saying is that this argument relies entirely upon the mafia being informed there's a traitor:

You will notice, that it was me who brought up the idea of the untrustworthy mason being a mafia traitor. If I were really a mafia, and if I knew about existence of mafia traitor, I would not bring it to the notice of town, since that role is not that common. And, no, this is not a WIFOM, since I am not arguing that I am town because I introduced traitor to the discussion. I am just saying that if you think I am scum, you should discard the possibility of the presence of a mafia traitor, because I really had no reason to bring that role into discussion had I been scum and knew about the role's presence.

You're saying that if you were mafia who knew there was a traitor, you would not be inclined to inform the town of that fact. I find it unlikely that the mafia would be informed at game start that there's a traitor hidden among the masons, so I find it odd that you'd make this argument in the first place.

Either you know something we don't, or you're making crap arguments. You choose.

[Setael]

if you're scum, regardless of the fact that she hadn't claimed yet - you'd know there are unclaimed masons out there, any of whom could be the traitor. So no, you might not want to accidentally hammer your traitor (since before all the masons claimed, it could've been anyone not in the regular mafia group). Until the masons all claimed, mafia actually wouldn't want to lynch anyone before they had a chance to claim since they might just be counting on the mason traitor to out all the masons for them. I didn't think of this until just now, but the mafia has had several nights to talk it over, so I'm sure they've covered this topic thoroughly.

This is my quote, working under the assumption we all are that there is a traitor mason.

You will notice, that it was me who brought up the idea of the untrustworthy mason being a mafia traitor. If I were really a mafia, and if I knew about existence of mafia traitor, I would not bring it to the notice of town, since that role is not that common. And, no, this is not a WIFOM, since I am not arguing that I am town because I introduced traitor to the discussion. I am just saying that if you think I am scum, you should discard the possibility of the presence of a mafia traitor, because I really had no reason to bring that role into discussion had I been scum and knew about the role's presence.

This is your quote, working under the assumption that the mafia would have been told at game start that they have a traitor whose identity they don't know.

There is a big difference.

[Setael]

Yes. Except that the assumption about the presence of mafia traitor was made, as far as I recollect, was made after the BooKitty wagon died down. Not before it. So, when I did not vote for BooKitty, there was no assumption about presence of mafia traitor. You were hence saying that if I am scum, I knew about the presence of mafia traitor, since there wasn't any assumption to go by at that time.

Nope.

It’s possible the untrustworthy one is just your average traitor – he might come up Town if investigated, but his goal is probably to find out who the scum are and help them win. I don’t think it’s possible this anti-Town mason would be known to the scum from the start, and I don’t think he knows who the scum are.

On the untrustworthy mason, I think it is possible that the untrustworthy mason is a mafia traitor, who can't communicate with mafia at night, but still knows who the mafia are, and who wins with the mafia.

Dec 15 – my Bookitty case

[Setael]

Because Setael is trying to buddy herself up to people.

The only support I see for that involves her directly quoting Sir Tornado. I'm not sure how that warrants a vote.

I agree with this. I've been writing JDodge off because he's always lurkery and therefore hard to read, but this accusation that I'm buddying up to people is really hollow. I still think Sir T is scum but JDodge is a good 2nd.

unvote, vote: JDodge

[Setael]

Because the accusation was hollow and unfounded, and felt scummy.

[Setael]

Both. Sir T has gone into hiding so there's not much more info from him but I have no reason to think he's town. JDodge's attack of me could've been intended to pull Sir T out of the spotlight. I can definitely see them being scum together.

[Setael]

I'd like to know why I bother you, Zone. I'd like to know your reasoning behind the other 2 as well actually.

[Setael]

@Sir T: By "gone into hiding" I meant lurking. Nearly 2 weeks passed between your last 2 posts.

[Setael]

I think Bookitty is the traitor mason and she knows JDodge is scum. This whole MoS case is designed to distract from the JDodge wagon. Oh, and Sir Tornado's last few posts have made me even more sure he's also scum.

[Setael]

I'm sort of looking forward to proving you wrong, Setael. But what do you make of MoS putting Sir Tornado at the top of his most town list, since you think Sir Tornado is scum, and MoS is town?

MoS just isn't seeing the obvscum that I am seeing in Tornado. He'll see the light though eventually I think. See look:

Sir Tornado needs to wake up and smell the coffee. His recent actions are not inspiring any confidence in my read on him.

[Setael]

Make mine nonalcoholic, please.

If JDodge is lynched, as seems likely right now, and he is scum, you've as much as said that this would implicate me. (I believe you directly said that I was defending him and distracting from his lynch.) What if he's town? Would that equally implicate me? Who would be implicated if JDodge is lynched and turns out to be town?

Good question. I don't know. I'd need to reread, regardless of how he card flips.

[Setael]

I think Tornado is an SK.

I don't see any reason for a protown vig to claim at this point, and I think this:

This may look odd timed, but I think it is necessary I make myself a mafia NK target to make sure none of the masons, whose survival I deem extremely necessary for the town to win, are taken out on N5.

is BS.

Saying he will take a poll about who he vigs is the perfect insurance the mafia will keep him alive. If we choose a townie, why would they kill him?

[Setael]

Seatael2: You say I am SK because the timing of my claim doesn't make sense for pro-town vig? But does it make sense for SK?

Yes. I refer you to something I already said:

Saying he will take a poll about who he vigs is the perfect insurance the mafia will keep him alive. If we choose a townie, why would they kill him?

And we're a lot more likely to choose a townie. Actually keeps you alive longer, especially if the town believes you're a vig.

This claim makes no sense. Why would you want to claim? The mafia don't want to kill the masons because they want the scum mason to live, duh. The masons *already* weren't a NK target.

Agreed.

Setael: what the hell kind of serial killer would kill Flameaxe and Sc­øpe?

Flameaxe came up mason. Why would a vig be more likely to kill him than an SK would? I've never been an SK so I don't know how they decide their targets, but aren't they just as likely to want to get rid of scummy players as players who seem protown? Am I missing something?

[Setael]

Assuming mafia traitor scenario, town doesn't have to lynch the untrustworthy mason.

Oddly, I had never thought of that. For some reason I was thinking we would eventually need to lynch the untrustworthy mason, but if it's a regular traitor, we shouldn't have to. This kind of makes me doubt that it's a regular traitor, because if that was the case I think mafia would've started killing off masons by now.

That thought makes your claim make more sense to me.

Has anyone ever seen a situation with a traitor where the traitor had to be lynched in order for the town to win?

[Setael]

I don't think any of you will lynch Setael2 if I get NKed N5, and she is high in my suspect list, whilst I can totally see Elmo and ZONEACE being lynched by you all.

Ether, Setael is supposed to be scum because, uh, there have to be 3 scum.

The only reason Sir T has to want to vig me is that I suspect him. That's not a protown reason. If he's not an SK, he may as well be one. Especially now that Bookitty has given him "permission" to vig me when neither of them have any legitimate reason to think I'm scum, and for all he knows Boo is the untrustworthy mason. If he follows her advice without any kind of consensus from other players, he's either the SK or a really crappy vig.

[Setael]

@Boo: I was referring to this statement where he seems to want to vig me, though the only reason he's given for suspecting me is "Setael is supposed to be scum because, uh, there have to be 3 scum."

I don't think any of you will lynch Setael2 if I get NKed N5, and she is high in my suspect list, whilst I can totally see Elmo and ZONEACE being lynched by you all.

I'd still like to hear from Sir T why I'm "high on his suspect list". He seems unwilling to anwer that. Bookitty, please don't answer for him.

[Setael]

Are you ok with the fact that Sir T wants to vig me with no reason for thinking I'm scum?

[Setael]

I don't know that he has no reason for thinking you're scum. Are you arguing I should intervene on your behalf?

He admitted he has no reason for thinking I'm scum. He was questioned about it and said the only reason he has for wanting to vig me is that there must be 3 scum.

[Setael]

Is that list saying I want a JDodge or Zoneace vig? I certainly never said that.

I would pick Elmo.

[Setael]

I am dead opposed to the vigging of any mason. Unless someone can come up with a decent theory of why the untrustworthy one would need to be killed in order for town to win (which I haven't heard yet) I think we should make the scum spend their NKs on them rather than doing it for them.

[Setael]

Ditto.

[Setael]

Elmo should be the vig target.

[Setael]

I still can't see one of the masons being full mafia, but I also don't see how them being neutral would make them "untrustworthy". I also think it'd be too likely that they'd just claim if they were neutral. Does anyone know of any other roles that win with mafia but aren't full scum, or whose identity wouldn't be known by scum? I do think one of the masons is a role that will need to be lynched by town before the town can win, but the mafia will need to get rid of some of the masons before end game so I still don't want to do their job for them.

I don't think kore is scum based on her fight with BM before BM was lynched. That leaves me with MoS and Zoneace of the non-masons. Mostly based on MoS' Zorg/BM push, I don't think it's MoS.

vote: Zoneace

[Setael]

Would you care to give examples of what you thought looked like bussing/distancing? I for one am not seeing it.

[Setael]

What makes MoS obvscum and not the others voting for you? Just that one statement or do you have anything else on him?

[Setael]

I have a "what if" re: the masons. Is it possible that the identity of the "untrustworthy" mason was known only by the mafia traitor? So only elmo would've known which of the masons was either neutral, or also a traitor? I don't remember elmo voicing much opinion on the masons either way, but I'll look back when I get a minute.

I just can't reconcile one of the masons being full scum with TS' posts which seemed to be searching out masons.

[Setael]

I'll be out of town all weekend. Don't know if I'll have access.

[Setael]

I don't really know what to do in this game other than sit on the Zoneace wagon. I think if he was town he'd be fighting harder.

[Setael]

I don't blame MoS for leaning toward me over Kore after her interaction with BM. I don't think Kore is scum. I know it's not me and I don't think it's MoS so that's why my vote is on Zoneace.

[Setael]

I for one think it highly likely that there's still a scum among the non-masons. To answer Boo's question if it's not Zoneace, I would pick MoS over Kore. I can reconcile his Zorg push as bussing easier than I can reconcile Kore's BM tunneling as bussing. MoS pushed zorg but then let it go and didn't go after BM until the focus was brought back to him. I can see a possibility of MoS. I've been in a lot of games with him and he's always been town so I think I have a tendency to assume he's always town. I guess he's gotta be scum some time eh?

The last thing I want to do is reread his play, but I'd vote MoS before kore.

[Setael]

Isn't that pretty common bussing technique, though? To lay off them as your #1 but not drop them totally. You didn't push it again until I made my big BM case. I know it's a long shot - keep in mind that I'm by no means convinced you're scum. If you're scum your play has been textbook imo. I just don't think it's kore so in order to answer boo's question, I have to pick you.

[Setael]

I completely agree with MoS' last post. I hadn't reread him recently and I must say that if either he or kore is scum, their play was above and beyond "typical" bussing. This is why my vote is on Zoneace. I can also see Bookitty as a scum mason with Zoneace, though I'm still unsure how the "untrustworthiness" affects our evil mason.

[Setael]

That has nothing to do with who I think is scum, though. I have my doubts that either MoS or Kore was bussing. I think one of the non masons is scum. I know it's not me. This leaves Zoneace. It doesn't matter to me that MoS doesn't agree.

[Setael]

I'd have to reread. UGH. It might be awhile.

[Setael]

I hate that I'm so obvious when I'm mafia. I see how different my play is and I just can't change it. I guess the one good side effect is it's obvious when I'm town. I'm not joining any new games as setael. I'm going to live in the jungle awhile until I'm decent and then come back with a new identity so no one can meta me.

[Setael]

I'll be out of town with no access until Tuesday. Have a good weekend everyone.

[Setael]

and since I think scum's intention today is to push a mislynch of Setael

I hadn't thought of that, but once I realized it does seem the case, suddenly it seems like MoS is likely scum.

I hope that Setael is scum, and Korejora is probably the next likely after that.

It makes no sense to me for MoS to meta Zoneace and decide he's town, but not do the same for me. If MoS was town I think he'd have cleared me (or at least meta'd me to the same extent) the same way he cleared Zoneace. It does seem like scum has decided I'm the one who needs to be lynched today, and MoS has been the main advocate of it (albeit subtly).

unvote, vote: MoS

[Setael]

MoS, you can see all my games here:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Setael

I *do* have a meta on ZONEACE and I *do* have good reason to believe Korejora is town. I don't have either of those for you.

Can you tell me what you find town about Kore that doesn't apply to me? My main reason is her play on the BM wagon which doesn't seem that different from my own.

[Setael]

So.... though I suppose this is obvious -

Top choice: MoS
2nd: Zoneace

[Setael]

[quote="MoS"]Can you please point to me where you and BM had a massive argument with each other that was so long and drawn out that my eyes began to glaze over every time I saw a new post begin?[/quote]
What makes the fight they had more of a town tell than my BM case when the VC looked like this:
[quote]
Bookitty (5) -- KaleiÐoscøpe, Niv, Mastermind of Sin, JDodge, Simenon
Battle Mage (2) -- Elmo, Korejora
Mastermind of Sin (2) -- Skruffs, Battle Mage
Simenon (2) -- Bookitty, Sir Tornado
Korejora (2) -- Setael, Ether[/quote]

See Post 2011, pg. 81.

[Setael]

It's not like she really even answered the question.

Can you please repeat the question. I don't remember what it was.

[Setael]

Ah. His cardflip did make it obvious to me that it is impossible to meta him. I've been in games with him as town and as scum and he lurks as both and changes everything else up and I wouldn't be able to read him either way.

I do think Simenon is less likely to be scum now that JDodge turned out to be town. I think the evil mason is either Boo or Niv, but I'm confused about how it would actually work since I don't see what the point is of having masons at all if one of them is full scum. I am still leaning toward a traitor mason even though there was a non-mason traitor in the game.

[Setael]

First, I can see that I have been tunnel visioned on Boo and I have been making assumptions that I am starting to think are incorrect. For example, that Ether is town. This was pretty much based on 2 things - not feeling any scum vibes from her, and her insistence that from her meta she knows I'm town. Perhaps I have fallen into the trap of giving a clear ticket to anyone who does not suspect me. I haven't seen her as scum before so I have no meta. I have seen her as town a lot and she's usually more involved than she seems to be in this game. So anyway, it's possible I was assuming wrong. I still don't feel like she's scummy, but I'll stop assuming she's definitely town.

I do think I was wrong about Bookitty. I've been less sure of her for awhile, but kept her as a likely scum mason based mostly on process of elimination. The last few posts have made me pretty sure she's town, and I can see that I've done the same thing with Kore as Ether and I need to stop assuming she's town. Since the masons were all told one of their number is "untrustworthy", numbers-wise I think there's only one more scum among the non-masons and one some kind of evil mason however that works. I was also giving Kore a clean ticket because of the fight with BM, but I suppose that could've been bussing.

I've already pinned down my suspicions. Korejora and ZONEACE are not scum, so Setael has to be. You could be scum if there is a scum-mason. Why are you ignoring the fact that I'm not lynching you because you're a mason? I've explained WHY I don't want to lynch you, so why do you keep asking like I haven't answered it already?

I can see Bookitty's point about the scum setting up a double mislynch when I read this post. MoS' vote on me is based solely on process of elimination, so it would probably be easy for him, if scum, to get another mislynch tomorrow.

It seems like if Zoneace is town, scum could've easily pulled off his mislynch today. Either he's scum or for some reason scum has decided I am higher priority to get out of the way. (This is again assuming MoS is scum). So... Bookitty, if Zoneace and MoS

aren't

scum together, why do you think scum would be motivated to get me lynched before Zoneace?

[Setael]

They aren't just playing for an easy lynch today (and I think they did want to push the ZONEACE lynch, but were scared off when the meta discussion arose);

Didn't MoS bring that up and decide that meta-wise Zoneace had to be town? Why would MoS do that as scum?

[Setael]

No, actually, if Setael came up scum, I'd find you less likely to be scum *because* of her trying to lynch you. However, I have no clue who Setael's scumpartner could be, because I didn't even suspect Setael until I ran out of possibilities.

OK, I've realized what our problem is when it comes to process of elimination. Both MoS and I have been giving Kore a free ride due to her fight with BM. I think this was a mistake. I think Zoneace was right to suspect Kore. Her last several posts aimed at Bookitty just scream scum to me.

unvote, vote: Korejora

[Setael]

Good posting, Bookitty. MoS' claim that he was trying to flush out scum doesn't fly at all imo.

MoS, why are you sure Kore is town? Just the fight with BM, or is there more to it than that?

[Setael]

Welcome Mizzy! Thanks for replacing.

[Setael]

My guess is that Bookitty's point (which I agree with) is that it's a lot harder to have reads on people if you're scum because you DO have to fabricate them. As town, you may be wrong, but you usually have a read on everyone.

[Setael]

Interesting take on it, and I can see what you mean. My point was basically that as town you're at least not lying, so you're confident in the fact that though you may be wrong, you're not being deceitful. That's how it is for me anyway. It's easier to be confident of what I say when I know it isn't lies.

To answer your question, my suspicions have been turned upside down of late. The only one I'm pretty sure is town is Niv (Mizzy), mostly because I don't think the "untrustworthy" mason would've brought the fact up and accused Simenon the way he did at the beginning of the game. He's also sounded pretty town to me all game. The last couple pages have made me lean more toward town on Bookitty - I've liked a lot of her points, especially about MoS' gambit which doesn't make sense to me either considering his stated suspicions. She seems to be thinking/arguing from a town perspective.

Simenon I'm also beginning to lean town on in spite of suspecting him since he "outed" Ether (intentionally or not). Still unsure about him as well as Zoneace, but he is sounding town lately too. Through all his abrasiveness all game he seemed town to me - the only reason I suspected him of late was process of elimination. Once I started thinking about it and realized I could be wrong to be giving a free pass to MoS and Kore for their play re: BM, process of elimination doesn't count for much anymore. It could be any of those 3 and Kore lately seems to be thinking/arguing from a scum perspective.

[Setael]

Besides all that, if I were really trying to be 'conciliatory', it's doubtful I'd be so contrary. Stubbornness and argumentativeness are not conducive to making conciliations.

This statement strikes me as making the fight between BM and Kore even more likely to have been faked. Makes it seem like Kore is very aware of how "contrary, stubborn and argumentative" she can be, and likely that she's doing it intentionally for her benefit.

[Setael]

I'm glad my vote's on kore.

Would you care to elaborate about this opportunism, or are you content just making the accusation without backing it up?

[Setael]

I'd like to know what you think is compelling and why. Also, if you expect a rebuttal from me I think you should be providing content yourself. Let's have a scum list from ya, Niv. (Be careful not to list me as scum JUST because you like Kore's case because that's actually exactly what she's accusing me of and you wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now, would you?)

[Setael]

I was thinking about this whole masonry issue, and I think we're making some wrong assumptions. If the "untrustworthy" mason has to be lynched in order for the town to win at end game, then it kills the whole point of having a masonry and they all become regular players. So why bother? Which leads me to think that none of the masons have to be lynched for the town to win at end game, which leads me to think that there are likely TWO scum among the non-masons. And that would be Kore and MoS. imo, one of those 2 should be our lynch today. So... whenever you guys are ready I'm on board.

[Setael]

Kore's last post convinced me she's town and Zoneace's last post convinced me he's scum. It's a tone thing. And it's good enough for me.

unvote; vote: Zoneace

[Setael]

My vote's not baseless. I've seen Zoneace as the best lynch since the beginning of the day. If anything, I should be criticized for switching OFF him to Kore without having good enough reasons. I don't know that he's scum, but he's sure sounding scummier than my 2nd best bet (Kore) and so I'm happy with my vote.

I'm leaving town until Monday. I may have limited access and if so will try to check in.

[Setael]

I don't have time to do much other than point out how ridiculous and unfounded this wagon is. I love how everyone on the wagon recognizes there's absolutely no reason to be voting me, and yet me as a process of elimination lynch makes no sense either.

My parting scum list:

MoS and Kore

Have fun guys. I think the scum has this game won.

[Setael]

Thanks Bookitty. I'm still on vacation until tomorrow and don't have time to be thorugh at all. For my last words, I'll say that I think I was wrong about my scum list since Ether needs to get bumped on. She wanted to lynch one of the masons all day and has been sure the entire game that I'm town and now all of a sudden, with no reason provided, she prefers my lynch.

So... Ether and MoS I guess.

I hate getting lynched when I'm out of town and can't do anything about it. Last time this happened, MoS was scum in the game (Lost Boys) so maybe that's affecting how sure I am that he's evil in this game. Anyway, whoever is scum is pretty subtle, so good luck town.

[Setael]

Shockingly, I'm not dead. I agree with Boo - protown points to both Kore and Sim for requesting an extension. I guess it could be a gambit, but I think scum would've let me get deadline lynched.

I've been pushing your lynch for a long time before you had V/LA

I already had you on the top of my suspicion list far before then.

MoS, the only reason I recall you ever giving for voting me is that you don't think it's Kore and you don't think it's Zone, so you voted me. Can you point out where you've mentioned actually suspecting me, and the reasons you gave for these suspicions?

That last post MoS made was quite an impressive attempt to throw suspicion at me and try to get me lynched. Plus, unless I missed something somewhere, it's full of lies. If I end up still getting deadline lynched, I'd like my vote to be on MoS when I die, since he's my #1 scum pick at the moment.

unvote, vote: MoS

[Setael]

Regardless, I think I'd still be more suspicious of Niv if you flipped town, for some similar reasons to those which make me think you're scum, especially in the past few pages.

And what if Niv isn't scum? This would be setting up a double mislynch(you can come back to this shortly when I flip town if you ignore it just because you don't know my alignment yet).

Bookitty gets the spirit award for pressuring MoS when all he's doing is pointing back to where he's listed me as suspicious for no reason, and voted me solely by process of elimination with no reason to suspect me above others.

MoS is scum. He's pushing a mislynch and stalling in order to not have to give decent reasons. When I flip town, I think you should look at MoS instead of Niv or whoever.

[Setael]

Looking back, I feel sheepish for not seeing more clearly that MoS and Sim were scum. I think it was partly their play and partly the fact that they both are intimidating (intentionally or not).

Would've been nice if Niv's attack of Sim would've made more sense. Oh well.

Fun game. I still can't believe one of the masons was full scum. I still subscribe to the philosophy of "What's the point of a masonry then?" In any case, good game all.

[Setael]

BooKitty and Setael scared me more than any other players in this game, as far as threats to the mafia went.

Highest compliment I've been paid in a mafia game.