Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d22

1 22-Sided Dice: (13) = 13

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Lemming1607

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: ZONEFACE

third vote on a bandwagon. Need I say more?

[Mastermind of Sin]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="Mastermind of Sin"]Need I say more?[/quote]Yes.[/quote]

more.

[Mastermind of Sin]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="Mastermind of Sin"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="Mastermind of Sin"]Need I say more?[/quote]Yes.[/quote]

more.[/quote]::goodposting::[/quote]

::gououdpousting::

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ooh, look at the way hmrox bucks at pressure...

Unvote, vote: hmrox

This is worth pursuing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

hmrox's response seems alright for now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Moure?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Simenon

Someone is lying, because I severely doubt the pms just didn't arrive.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Simenon is a better lynch than ZONEACE.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sir Tornado, he was trying to quote ZONEACE. He wasn't trying to talk about himself getting lynched.

I see no reason to lynch ZONEACE, but Niv's point against Simenon seems more than enough reason to vote right now. Your turn, Flare.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I do disagree. I'm going to continue to put pressure on Simenon until this claim thing is resolved. And no, I'm sure I can't see why ZONEACE is a very nice candidate. Why don't you repeat it for me?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Flare

I agree with the above comments. Sorry this isn't really the greatest reasoning, but I DO agree with the people who are also voting him, and I'm in a really hectic time of my life.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Flare

I agree with the above comments.

Sorry this isn't really the greatest reasoning,

but I DO agree with the people who are also voting him, and

I'm in a really hectic time of my life

.

vote: Mastermind of Sin

Already making excuses for what he probably

knows

will turn out to be a townie lynch.

*points to sig* The situation that prompted that has only gotten worse, not better.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Erg0 is full of win. Sir Tornado is full of fail.

Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado

Zoneace is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How did I just copy what Erg0 said? I said I agreed with him and then attacked Sir Tornado. Just because half a sentence said the same thing Erg0 said does not mean I copied him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh sorry this is my first game so I'm a little unsure of how people post and such. I didn't like her jab at MoS if you must know, plus she's pretty inactive and unhelpful.

Actually it's a bit of meta-gaming. MoS is very good at surviving games - which means that he is skilled in not pissing off the scum and getting nightkilled, and not shaking the town too much to get himself lynched. Yet, he manages to participate somewhat aggressively.

His posts so far have struck me as wishy-washy, and out of character. He's not himself it seems - but only in this game. It's also not his habit to fail to respond to being voted against, even when he's far from being in danger of a lynch. I don't expect most other players to see what I see, but I've played a great many games with MoS, and I think many players here have played none to a few. Gut-metagaming if you will.

It's probably not a bad idea to shake him up a bit and see if he's persistently out of character, or if he's having an off gamestart.

Neither. I'm having my life torn apart right now. Forgive me if I don't go all rambo on everyone.

Doesn't change the fact that my post was an attack on Sir Tornado, not just a copy of what Erg0 said. Although, I *DID* say that I agreed with Erg0, so I fail to see how agreeing with someone is a bad thing.

How did I just copy what Erg0 said? I said I agreed with him and then attacked Sir Tornado. Just because half a sentence said the same thing Erg0 said does not mean I copied him.

I'd like a second opinion on this. I think Masterminds post was terrible. I'll try and summarise why, below.

Erg0 is full of win. Sir Tornado is full of fail. Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado

Zoneace is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy.

This post came just after a post by Erg0, in which Erg0 had suggested that Zoneace always plays this way. Mastermind appears to have felt an urge to repeat exactly what Erg0 had just said. Yet i dont recall Mastermind saying this before. This could be an example of buddying up, by following the lead of Erg0. I havent played with Mastermind before (though he is in a game i am starting now), so can someone please tell me whether he is always this erratic?
I mean, his staunch defense of Zoneace just seems really jumpy. It would be very nice if Mastermind could please reveal his connections with Zoneace. If you are so confident that he always plays like this, it would be useful to see games which you and he share. I'm going to reread your posts so far and see if you have been consistent with this approach towards Zoneace.

in the meantime,

Unvote, Vote: Mastermind

This is a horrible attack. If you just read my posts in isolation, you would notice that I said ZONEACE should not be lynched

THREE TIMES

before agreeing with Erg0's points. I didn't do something inconsistent.

[Mastermind of Sin]

t;]Erg0 is full of win. Sir Tornado is full of fail.

Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado

Zoneace is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy.

however if zoneace always plays like this, wouldn't it be more like a no tell?

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I said he wasn't acting like he does as scum. That statement is not logically equivalent to "always plays like this", therefore it is not the no tell you are proposing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

His posts so far have struck me as wishy-washy, and out of character. He's not himself it seems - but only in this game. It's also not his habit to fail to respond to being voted against, even when he's far from being in danger of a lynch. I don't expect most other players to see what I see, but I've played a great many games with MoS, and I think many players here have played none to a few. Gut-metagaming if you will.

You forget his lack of profanity.

Excuse me for being too tired to bother resorting to Ad Hom.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm going to reread your posts so far and see if you have been consistent with this approach towards Zoneace.

in the meantime, Unvote, Vote: Mastermind

I agree with this. MoS has done this three seperate times I believe. He auto agreed with Niv. Then around two pages later he hopped on me with three other people just agreeing with them, and then very shortly afterwards, he moved to SirT. (this is based off of memory and not looking back btw)

vote:MoS

I don't love the fact that both Flare and Zorg jumped on the MoS wagon while openly admitting that they needed to re-read him to be sure. Leaving room to backtrack, methinks - it's not like MoS has written a novel in this game, a re-read wouldn't be too much to ask before voting.

FoS: Zorg

since I'm already voting Flare.

Incidentally, Flare is pretty obviously an alt - I don't see how he would know MoS's tendencies otherwise.

Indeed. I've only made 22 posts so far, not that much of a reread. Hopefully my activity will kick up after this week.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, i read your posts back, and this is not true. You DID claim that there were better lynches than Zoneace-repeating over and over that he was town, but the fact is, you never mentioned any real reasons behind this. When Erg0 made his post, you appear to have latched onto his logic, which involved meta-gaming. I'm currently highly doubtful that you have even read one of his games, but as i'm not infallible, please do refer me to the games you and he have shared.

Where did I say I mentioned a reason not to lynch ZONEACE? You can't say it's not true, because what I said was that I stated ZONEACE shouldn't be lynched, and you are agreeing with me while saying that I lied at the same time. That's inconsistent.

In addition, it was early in D1. I didn't think that ZONEACE's wagon would get to the point where I felt I needed to supply a reason. I was giving people a chance to look into him on their own, which they didn't. You haven't either, apparently, or you'd know that ZONEACE just came back recently, having been gone for something like 2 1/2 years.

Yes, I latched onto Erg0's logic and agreed with it. I FUCKING SAID THIS ALREADY. Why do you feel the need to repeat something that I have

already admitted

to doing? It doesn't change the fact that I made a specific attack on someone that jumped on the wagon, something that Erg0 did not do. I agreed with his reasoning, but I also expanded from there and found someone scummy for their actions regarding ZONEACE. Erg0 had nothing to do with that.

"which involved meta-gaming"

What is the point of this phrase? You're rehashing something that's already been talked about. It's not like it's a bad thing to meta-game. Meta-gaming ZONEACE is the reason that some people are defending him, whereas people were attacking him without having anything to base their arguments off of.

Of course I've read one of ZONEACE's games. I've played with him many times before, but that was around 2 1/2 years ago, give or take. Do you honestly expect me to remember exactly which games I played with him in? I don't need to reread to remember how he plays. You're the one that needs to look it up, so do the research yourself instead of being lazy and demanding that I do it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Pressure on my just makes me cranky. Cranky != good. Especially if the pressure is coming for no good reason.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're cranky.

but he's also correct, and that's what matters.

ftr, i really don't like the interaction going on between Zoneace and Mastermind.

k. So let's say, for example, that you have something taht you always do when you are protown. A tell, shall we say. This tell looks scummy, but it does mean you are protown. You try to point this out to people, but they keep voting you. Someone else comes along and points out that this is a town tell for you, and they shouldn't be lynching you. They in turn get voted for pointing out the obvious. Are you not going to support them in turn for being the one person who actually was

right

about you? And I'm talking about something that is factual, something that is on record and can be looked up. I'm not talking about someone randomly defending you because they *think* you're town. If someone points out a fact about you that everyone else is missing or ignoring, what are you going to do when they get attacked for "defending" you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

See, that's the thing. How could you be so goddamn paranoid that you would think someone is suspicious for pointing out something that you know to be factual and referenceable? Pointing out the obvious when people aren't seeing it should not be a scumtell. This is exactly why I made the distinction about what I'm talking about, because "buddying up" doesn't really apply here. Sure, it can happen, but this sort of thing is not evidence of buddying up, because the "defense" that was made was pointing out the freaking obvious! It's not like ZONEACE said "MoS is so obviously protown that I would never consider voting him for the rest of this game. Hell, I might never vote for him for the rest of my time on mafiascum!". He just appreciated the fact that

someone

knew what they were talking about when the majority of people weren't doing their research correctly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am pming the mod with a request that Lemming be forceably replaced out of this game. I suggest that you all follow suit. There is no point in playing with someone who insists on playing like a retard and flaming people repeatedly out of immaturity. At least ZONEACE is actually playing the game, even if it's in his style to use AdHom. Lemming is just being immature and annoying as hell. I don't want him in this game anymore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Yamahako

Scum.

Need I say more?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Profanity != Flaming. Lemming is flaming for no reason at all. ZONEACE is using ad hom attacks on people because he's clearly pissed off at how they're acting. He may not be acting the way other people would, but at least it has a reason. Lemming is flaming purely because he gets off at insulting people. That is not playing mafia. No matter how bad you think ZONEACE's play has been, he IS playing the game. You cannot argue against that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

White, here's some games that had me as scum and town:

Scum:
Mafia 61
Jack of All Trades

Town:
Kingmaker II
MAfia 50

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: booboodafool

Person C arguments are among the most accurate, in my opinion. Good catch, The Fonz

[Mastermind of Sin]

The Fonz, is that game still running, where Yos2 introduced this type of argument? I thought it might have been Kingmaker II, but I can't remember.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I already explained this. ZONEACE was

playing the game

. Whether or not you agree with how he plays, his comments were still relevant to the game. I think he got the point across quite well, even if it got on people's nerves. You, on the other hand, were flaming him out of your own immaturity, just because you thought it was funny. That is not acceptable behavior by any standard.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Except the Cubs/Jathan standard.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What was the point of that post?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: The Venerable Zorg

I think we need to apply some pressure here. The snippet Yamahako quoted in his last post has me thinking that Zorg is just looking for every possible place to apply pressure and fling about suspicion. He's been doing this pretty much all game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

More votes on Zorg would be nice. Let's see if he cracks under pressure

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well yes, it can be used as a defence of someone, but it can also be the truth. I think Jester is a more common role than Lyncher, JailKeeper, or Survivor. It's probably equally as common as an SK.

Wrong. SK is way more common than Jester. So is Survivor I think. Jester is as common as Lyncher and possibly more than Jailkeeper.

Who originally brought of Jester, and who was it referring to? First person to bring up Jester is probably scum, and if they're scum, they were probably defending a buddy with the Jester idea.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Who originally brought of Jester, and who was it referring to? First person to bring up Jester is probably scum, and if they're scum, they were probably defending a buddy with the Jester idea.

Except the first person to bring up jester brought it up in reference to me, and I'm not scum so they weren't doing it to defend a buddy.

*shrug* The whole Jester thing becomes much more unlikely by the time you get to the person who was called a Jester. Scum being the first to bring up Jester is much more accurate.

[Mastermind of Sin]

thats ok. I just wanted to be clear, because, as it stands, some individuals (and by some individuals, i mean MastermindofSin) are using your 'vibes' to validate their bandwagon votes, which is obviously scummy in itself.
What are your thoughts on his post following your original analysis of me?

WTF are you talking about? My vote had

NOTHING AT ALL

to do with something Beastly said...I don't even remember him saying anything about you...

My vote originally came as a response to this post below, WHICH I EVEN SAID I WAS RESPONDING TO WHEN I VOTED. Zorg is blatantly making up facts here.

I'd say that self-voting is almost always a negative strategy (unless in the random-voting stage). If you are town, you do not want to get lynched, because a lynch on you is a lynch that could be on scum.
-snip-
Yamahako exhibited the giving up scumtell which could be indicative of his alignment. I'd rather see a Yama-lynch than a White-Lynch, but i'm sure there're better lynches than either out there. A lurker for example.

Let's nip this in the bud right now, for the fourth time...

I did NOT self vote

The mod put up a vote count that was missing a vote someone had placed on me, and showed me in the list of people voting for me. This was mod error,

NOT

a self vote.

Vote me if you want because I'm not playing well or adding much to the discussion, but freaking read the game if you are making an honest attempt at analysis.

I have a sparse post history, it wouldn't be that hard to view all my posts to see whether or not I had voted for myself...

Unvote, Vote Simenon

Since then, I have seen no reason to let up the pressure, because his past behavior on the whole has been quite suspect. Zorg is just flailing and trying to discredit anyone who attacks him. It's funny that he was one of the people on ZONEACE, who was being attacked for pretty much the same thing. What a hypocrite.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, he hasn't tried to discredit me yet. I feel kind of left out.

Mod:

While you've got the battery acid out, a prod on Flameaxe might also be in order.

awwww.... *hugs*

[Mastermind of Sin]

sorry for not contributing much, personal life has interfered. I work two jobs and quit one of them for stress reasons. Will try to take a heavy look at the thread before the weekend

Right. So now you work one job...

GET TO WORK D:<

I lol'd

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is TVZ getting away with being scum? We should vote him more, plz.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is TVZ getting away with being scum? We should vote him more, plz.

What he said. Zorg is wagonny, over-cautious and inconsistent.

QFT! These guys are good.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, I QFT'd Erg0. Erg0 and that other guy really know what they're talking about.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree, MoS and that other guy are totally on top of things.

QFT

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is white scum again?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is white scum again?

Why isn't White scum?

That's just

argumentum ad ignorantiam

. Nice try, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is white scum again?

Why isn't White scum?

That's just

argumentum ad ignorantiam

. Nice try, though.

Actually it's more

argumentum ad ignoring your question

, but that's besides the point.

Now allow me to apply a bit of

ipsedixitism

and say "trust me on this one". I will probably be repeating this

ad nauseam

, so I would recommend that you get used to it.

I can quote fancy words in italics too

Pfft. Doesn't change the fact that your response was a blatant fallacy and that you are avoiding actually giving a case against White.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ad hominem tu quoque

.

Ignoratio elenchi to quoque

[Mastermind of Sin]

*tu

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ad hominem tu quoque

.

Ignoratio elenchi to quoque

Gesundheit

Sieg Heil

[Mastermind of Sin]

...but Zorg is so much scummier than that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zeppo, what reason is there not to go aggressively after Zorg? I believe he is scum, and the more aggressively we pushed his lynch, the more he stopped posting altogether until we called him out for lurking.

Person C votes are not beat all end all, Zeppo. You're acting like that's the only thing I've done all game. That

WAS

the only thing booboodafool had done since replacing. Instead of adding any content of his own, he immediately came out with a person C vote. That is scummy. Having a person C vote come up in a game is not inherently scummy. You have to look at the whole evidence, such as what else the player is doing, whether or not the reasoning they agree with is logical, etc. You have no basis for saying my agreement with The Fonz was scummy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: White

The inconsistencies TS pointed out seem really blaring. Since I do tend to hate on the Oppressor, I could see him trying to buddy up to me if he was scum. A valid point was made, and I'll follow up on it.

IGMEOY: Zorg

You're not off the hook, yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Zorg

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry. I was out drinking last night.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I understand where TS is coming from, but it doesn't makes sense to unvote.

I think TS is scum who felt an easy wagon on White and pushed it just a little too hard. However, I still think Zorg is more likely scum than TS. They could easily be scumbuddies, though. I don't remember either of them ever commenting on the other. Scum often forget to comment on each other because they don't want to be associated together.

On a side note, why are Zeppo and Flare still voting me? I understand that Zorg got caught spouting nonsense and realized he had to stick his vote on or he'd look like he would change his opinion under pressure. I don't understand the other two votes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS - I really, really don't see what's so special about Zorg. Whatever scent of scum he gives off, I must be immune to it. I read all the posts, and I just don't get it. But then again, I thought White was scum for sure, but obviously I was quite mistaken.

Or because you're scum and don't want to commit to a position against him. If you push him

too

hard, he might get lynched. If you defend him, we'll call you out on the obvious bullshit and you'll be screwed. So you try to sit the fence and claim ignorance for as long as you can. Well it's not going to work with me.

Unvote, Vote: Toaster Strudel

Zorg can come tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Interesting how some people started to vote for me because I wanted White to claim, and now I am forced to claim, which is not good. Interesting how the White wagon stalled, and my wagon took off like a rocket.

I don't know what I did wrong, but I apologize, whatever I did, I let the town down pretty bad, I have to be out Day 1.

Sadly, I'm a cop.

Most of this post strikes me wrong, and I'm thinking that you're claiming cop just to survive a couple extra days. So

IGMEOY: TS

However, even a counterclaim won't prove TS scum, since we could have multiple cops. I'm willing to give TS a chance for now, but we need to watch her like a hawk. She'll slip eventually if she's scum.

Also notice that she *still* hasn't answered many of the accusations against her.

Unvote, Vote: Zorg

[Mastermind of Sin]

Better:
He's making it seem like he's counter claiming cop, but doesn't want to attract the nightkill. The "we could have multiple cops so no counterclaims" is a pretty obvious subclaim. But since we have two cops, the idea of MoS counter claiming is shot down.

This makes him by far the best lynch available.

WTF!? How could I possibly be inferring that I was cop? I

never

lay cop breadcrumbs down. Hell, 90% of the time I don't even know when I'm the cop! I made those comments because I wanted to avoid the situation we got into anyways. Some idiot cop thinks that he is so important he has to be the only cop in the entire game, so he counterclaims the other cop and gives the doctor two targets that they have to protect tonight, giving the mafia a statistically better chance of finding scum. What was so hard about that? I can't help people being stupid, but I

can

try to take preventative measures against it. I don't know how you came up with the conclusion you're accusing me of, but it's a bunch of BS.

[Mastermind of Sin]

However, even a counterclaim won't prove TS scum, since we could have multiple cops.

It doesn't get much better than this. I still don't know what Lemming was thinking.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I thought it was water tight. ]:

Willing to lynch either TS or MoS today. I can't understand how we could lynch anybody else.

Thanks for acknowledging I was right and then still saying I should be lynched. A lot of reasoning behind that, I can tell.

[Mastermind of Sin]

For people saying it was a bad idea to counter claim.

I'm not new to mafia. It's traditional in almost every single game I've ever played to have only 1 cop in the game, with possibly a backup. The way my PM was worded, if there's another cop, he had to have gotten the same PM that I got.

Now, people started saying there was the possibility of multiple cops early in the game.

HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY KNOW THIS

The cops don't talk to each other, and I think its retarded to come into a game thinking there's more than one cop. That is just stupid playing to me.

Dethy setups, or multiple cops with varying sanities is like the Jester role to me. You don't go into a game assuming it, you play thinking there's one cop until you're proven otherwise.

I think TS is lying about his role, and I feel really uneasy that people SETUP the idea of multiple cops into the town's head.

I think scum put the thought of multiple cops into the town's head, allowing the scum to roleclaim cop to not get outted, and people will be like "oh sure might be multiple cops"



As for my early roleclaim...if I had waited to counter claim, what are the chances of me being believed? If there was a cop day 1 claiming, and I saw someone else counter claim cop 3 or 4 days later, I'd call bullshit immediately. So I'm doing it now for the believability factor, and I'm pretty damn sure he's lying.

I'm pretty sure scum are trying to make the town believe the possibility of multiple cops, and I say that's bullshit because you don't go into ANY game thinking there will be multiple cops, especially with the role flavor I got.

It's either I'm the only cop or it's dethy with the PM I got

Please paraphrase your role pm. I fail to understand how you could be so sure you are the only cop, or that it's dethy. I cannot think of any possible wording that would give you that impression. In fact, I can't think of

any

reason that you would think it's dethy. That's just dumb. There are like, 24 or so people in this game, how could we all be cops? That wouldn't be a normal game.

WTF!? How could I possibly be inferring that I was cop? I

never

lay cop breadcrumbs down. Hell, 90% of the time I don't even know when I'm the cop! I made those comments because I wanted to avoid the situation we got into anyways. Some idiot cop thinks that he is so important he has to be the only cop in the entire game, so he counterclaims the other cop and gives the doctor two targets that they have to protect tonight, giving the mafia a statistically better chance of finding scum. What was so hard about that? I can't help people being stupid, but I

can

try to take preventative measures against it. I don't know how you came up with the conclusion you're accusing me of, but it's a bunch of BS.

Why do are you 100% positive there is more than 1 cop in the game. There is no way to be certain of it, unless you and your scum buddies are trying to set up this multiple cop theory in the town's mind.

I'm not 100% positive. I have no information about the setup. Since I have no information about the setup, why the FUCK should I be certain there is only one cop? Why would I want to risk eliminating a power role on Day 1 when I have no reason to believe there is only 1 cop? That's insanely ridiculous that you would expect me to operate that way. It's suicide for a town.

Please look at the semantics MoS is using. He's not giving even the possibility that there is only one cop in the game.

That's just a straight up lie.

I said, and I quote: "we

could

have multiple cops." I also said, and I quote: "we need to watch her like a hawk". On top of that, I even said, and I quote: "she'll slip eventually if she's scum." So

NOWHERE

did I fucking say that it was impossible to have only one cop. You are extrapolating my statements far beyond any possible recognition of what I said, twisting them to fit some foolish idea that you've got in your head. It's ridiculous, and I'm not going to let you make such gross mischaracterizations. Sit down and shut up if you're not going to think logically. I don't give a damn if you *are* a cop, if you can't use reason, I'm not going to care what you say. It's people like you that make me realize why Mafiascum is going to shit.

Most of this post strikes me wrong, and I'm thinking that you're claiming cop just to survive a couple extra days. So

IGMEOY: TS

However, even a counterclaim won't prove TS scum, since we could have multiple cops. I'm willing to give TS a chance for now, but we need to watch her like a hawk. She'll slip eventually if she's scum.

Also notice that she *still* hasn't answered many of the accusations against her.

Unvote, Vote: Zorg

I find this post hilarious. "I really really think your scum, but we can't prove it, so I'm going to vote for someone else I find scummy."

You say that you don't believe him, but you're going to let him live? And then you immediately say there is no way that a cop counter claiming proves he's lying.

I don't buy it. I think MoS is covering up for his scum buddy. Everything fits

Now you're the one playing semantics. You're the one asserting the hardline definition of "prove", not me. I used "prove" in the sense that a cop counterclaim is not enough for me to know if TS is lying. However, if TS (or you, for that matter) is lying, there will be a slip up, a mistake in results, or even a pattern that gives away the lie. TS will fall if she is scum. Therefore I see no reason to go all gung-ho for lynching her today when it's entirely possible that she was just playing really badly. I find it far less likely that she is town, but the risk of killing a cop outweighs my suspicion for the time being.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's a game where everyone is a cop and there are cops of every sanity.

[Mastermind of Sin]

More votes on Zorg would be good. Zorg today, pressure TS again tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok how about this:

We have two cop claims now. People are unvoting because they don't want to vote a claimed cop. If there are scum, they're just going to claim cop.

Therefore we have to vote people for scumminess, and not on claiming cop.

What is to stop scum from claiming cop the entire game? What "proof" are you guys looking for to lynch someone you find scummy?

If we're not going to believe cop claims then we must go on scumminess, and everyone was willing to lynch TS before he claimed. Now that there is a counterclaim, if you allow scum to get by on cop claims, what is it going to take to lynch scum?

Also I apologize for using Dethy. To me any game with more than one cop with varying sanities is dethy.

Excuse me if I get pissed off at stupid people. Which you are continuing to show yourself as.

NO ONE SAID THAT WE WOULD ALLOW SCUM TO GET BY ON COP CLAIMS. WE JUST AREN'T STUPID ENOUGH TO LYNCH A CLAIMED COP ON DAY 1. NO ONE BELIEVES WE HAVE A GAME WITH A BILLION COPS, AND I DOUBT WE WILL SEE ANY MORE COP CLAIMS THIS GAME, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PERHAPS ONE MORE IF WE HAVE MULTIPLE COPS

AND

TS IS LYING. CUZ, YOU KNOW, THE SMART COP WOULD'VE NOT CLAIMED YET SO THAT THEY DON'T DIE AND CAN INVESTIGATE TS TONIGHT. YOU ARE TAKING EVERYTHING WE ARE SAYING AND COMPLETELY TWISTING IT AROUND TO SAY SOMETHING ELSE. WE DIDN'T SAY WE WOULD NEVER LYNCH A COP, AND WE DIDN'T SAY WE THOUGHT THERE WERE A BILLION COPS IN THE GAME, SO WHY THE

FUCK

ARE YOU SAYING THAT WE'RE JUST GOING TO LET THE SCUM ALL CLAIM COP AND GET AWAY WITH IT? DO YOU THINK WE'RE ALL STUPID? DO YOU JUST NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING LOGICAL? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!?

You deserved that. I'm done with you. I don't plan on responding to you again. Imma let my homeboys finish you off. Peace out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am pming the mod with a request that Lemming be forceably replaced out of this game. I suggest that you all follow suit. There is no point in playing with someone who insists on playing like a retard and flaming people repeatedly out of immaturity. At least ZONEACE is actually playing the game, even if it's in his style to use AdHom. Lemming is just being immature and annoying as hell. I don't want him in this game anymore.

The irony...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fair enough but it seems a bit out of hand when two players are asking for the other to be removed for the second time in the game.

I'm not asking for Lemming to be removed...I just found it entirely ironic that he copied my old request.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Perhaps rather than have anyone being forcibly replaced now we could say that from now on anyone who swears is forcibly replaced?

fuck that

QFT. I personally find players acting like the posterboy for Lobotomies R Us far more detrimental to my enjoyment than a bit of language.

Quoted For Fucking Truthery.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There's a good chance MoS and Zeppo are scum buddies - I think the case I made on zeppo was good enough to be commented on and instead MoS continued to harp about the cop nonsense. I would be willing to lynch MoS today as well. I think it's assinine to lynch a claimed cop D1 and I will NOT be voting for TS today, nor do I think Simenon should be encouraging people to do so. Doesn't it make sense to let them report at least ONE investigation in case we're wrong about which one is telling the truth?

Huh? I didn't even see your case. I was distracted. How am I scum just because I didn't see a case? What about all the other people that didn't comment on it? Why are you singling me out? Also, in what way is it "nonsense" to say that it's stupid to lynch a claimed cop on a nightless Day 1? This whole post of yours seems really off in its logic. Is anyone else seeing this or is it just me?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Read the Zeppo case, agreed. There really wasn't much to "comment" on (since I agreed with what you already said), so I'm not sure what you expected. I still think Zorg is a better play, but Zeppo is a good #2 if people don't vote Zorg any time soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zorg would be much better as an alternative.


Okay. Why?

Why don't you try reading all the cases presented against him. Why don't you also look at the fact that Zorg is now lurking since we've been distracted by the cop claims. Why don't you also just read Zorg's freaking posts and find out for yourself instead of being a lazy ass who is determined to lynch a claimed cop Day 1, which has got to be one of the stupidest plans ever, even IF TS *IS* scum!

I can understand if you didn't see it at all. I'm not sure I believe it, but if it's true then you look less scummy (hence the motivation to lie about it which is why I'm not sure I believe you). You should be able to see how that would look scummy if you had seen it, and then posted several times only about the cop issue - it looked like distracting to totally ignore the zeppo case.

Considering that you agree with me on how asinine it is to want to lynch a claimed cop on a Nightless Day 1, then forgive me if I was focused on stopping people from being asinine.

And by the way, check your facts before you post. I am NOT saying it is nonsense to say it's stupid to lynch a claimed cop. I have made it clear that I will NOT vote a claimed cop and I think it's assinine to do so before they can make investigations. What I think is "nonsense" is that it's being discussed at all.

I agree, but would you rather I had just sat back and let people continue to do something that is so obviously a horrible strategic move for the town? I really don't see what you're getting at here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hay for future reference:
When I quote someone, it means I want a response from them.

Still waiting on Aimee.

You didn't quote...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I will not be able to post content until tonight or next monday. I have an Ultimate tournament this weekend.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Erg0 speaks the truth. I'm sorry people think I'm scummy for trying to save the town from exposing any more power roles needlessly, but that's a bad case for you to make.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Setael's

got my back? I like her case on Zeppo, at least until she drags MoS in, but I'm not sure what to make of the fact that it's her doing it.

Zorgwagon's my deadline choice. Setael needs to explain it isn't hers (as implied by her dislike of MoS).

Yeah...I'm reeeeeeeeeeaaally not getting the MoShate.

I agree with erg0 that I've been making too big a deal out of the fact that MoS suggested there could be multiple cops, so I think my MoS suspicion could be off. The other reason I was willing to have MoS be my 2nd place choice was Simenon's surety that MoS is scum, and the fact that he has more of a substantial wagon than zeppo (though I think this is the fault of all the Townies who aren't voting him yet. Several have mentioned they agree with the case so at least there is still hope). However, the more I look at Simenon the more I realize I should not assume he's a pro-Town mason and I therefore won't be putting so much store in his MoS suspicion. His recent attempt to cast suspicion on me for "directing the doc" was quite a stretch. If I believe lemming over TS there is nothing wrong with me saying "IMO lemming should be protected over TS."

I don't really get your logic here. Why should you trust Simenon's opinion at all? Do you have reason to believe that he is *right*, as well as protown? Even if he *IS* a protown mason, that doesn't make him

correct

. Even confirmed protown players are highly fallible. It's not like he's a cop and could be hinting at a result. He's already claimed, so I don't see why you are putting *so* much stock in his opinion. Sure, you should listen to it, but if he's wrong, he's still wrong. Just because he's a claimed mason doesn't make him more prone to be correct. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you agree that the case on me (multiple cops suggestion) isn't very good, Simenon pushing it should not make a difference to you. It's not like Simenon has presented a case against me. The "multiple cops" thing

IS

his case, so if you don't think it's any good, I don't see why you were holding suspicion just because he might be protown. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Stuff about cops

Yeah that does make sense, especially the stuff about the night kill which I hadn't thought about, so

unvote

for now.

What stuff about the night kill? Please elaborate in your own words.

No one else answer this lest I e-strangle you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And if they are scum? I guess I don't see why that argument in particular made you unvote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^Having another useful townie spared is a bonus, and the clincher for me. I can see the advantage of having the two investigations whether they are true or false to work off later in the game but that alone didn't seem enough to spare a suspected scum.

Yea, I'm having trouble following this logic as well. It seems like a really weak reason for you to back off from a case that was losing ground quickly.

Unvote, Vote: Zeppo

IGMEOY: Zorg

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zorg had some heat, dissapeared, re-appeared posted the above and has since dissapeared again. For what it's worth he still looks the scummiest to me.

While I agree this behaviour is scummy, it should be noted that...

Sir Tornado wants to apply pressure to the lurkers, now from my understanding this would be an easy case for scum to go after people, picking on the lurkers, something to look for. Especially those after me haha.

Tornado it is again in 312 pushing for the lurkers, again I see this as somewhat a mafia ploy, yes it could be seen pro-town but it could also be looking to shift the scum attack in a different direction.

Irrelevant. You're comparing apples to oranges.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Can someone please state exactly what the Zeppo or Zorg b/w is all about? Or a link to the original argument or something?

The original case on me was in post 972 which I responded to in post 974 and then I don't think anyone ever bothered responding to to my post although I might have missed it.

And then more recently votes have come over from the last page or so because I wanted to lynch TS because I thought (and still do think) he is scum but despite the fact he claimed to be a cop.

Thinking TS is scum and wanting to lynch her on Day 1 regardless of her claim are two VERY different things. I also feel that TS is most likely scum, but I'm not stupid enough to take a chance on the fact that TS might be an actual cop who was playing lousy. There are ways to tell the difference without lynching right away, and we should use them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

/Oops.

I'm on a different computer now because my laptop had a hissy fit. Hopefully it will be okay by tomorrow so I can finish and post my Zorg case (which is half done on the other computer).

Although seriously... Zorg voting, anyone?

Zeppo is just as good as Zorg, but I'm willing to vote either over No Lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good bandwagoner. *pats*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Zorg

Suspect #2.

[Mastermind of Sin]

oh, great. Now we're gonna get a guy in here who's gonna be all like, I don't know what zorg was thinking! Give me a clean slate! ffs...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't plan of giving him a clean slate. But a lot of people *do* argue for that when people replace. Heck, not even for a clean slate, but to give him a chance. And not in the way that we would give Zorg a chance to explain his actions, either, because his replacement can't do that. We can say Zorg is scummy for his past actions, but we can't get an explanation from his scumbuddy.

However, I really don't like the fact that Zorg is getting replaced. it

irkes

me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Battle Mage replaces The Venerable Zorg.

This irks me even more...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree with Simenon about the Mastermind of Sin slip-up of mentioning multiple cops before we had any reason to believe that to be the case. That's awfully odd--it's nothing that would have occurred to me, personally, so I find it very suspicious.

FOS: Mastermind of Sin

Ugh, we went over this already yesterday...

Three questions for you.

1) What would have been the point of my making those comments "after" we had two cop claims (since the whole point of my comment was to prevent unnecessary "counterclaiming")?

2) How many mafia games have you been in, and how many of them were large games like this one?

3) What evidence do you have to assume we

didn't

have two cops? You're saying that it's strange to mention to

possibility

of two cops before they claimed? I say it's strange for you to assert that there can only be 1 cop in a large game. It's even more strange for you to assert that it's weird for

me

to think differently than you. That's basically what you are doing. "it's nothing that would have occurred to me, personally, so I find it very suspicious". Why exactly are my thoughts restricted by what you would think of? What evidence do you have that

I

would not think two cops was a possibility?

Please show me your logic here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also for the record, that was the main reason I FoS'd MoS yesterday. The fact that he came out with the possibility of multiple cops so early is odd to me. Multiple cops in a game is pretty broken unless they have different sanities, making it a sort of mini dethy, or the scum has some crazy roles to balance.

Or maybe there's something in the game that heavily balances multiple cops.

Or occam's razor and Toaster is lying

MULTIPLE COPS IS NOT BROKEN.


MULTIPLE COPS IN A GAME THIS SIZE IS COMMON.



This is something we need to understand and accept. That said.

vote lemming

you're still scum

I just said that since we don't know the setup we can't assume it's broken. Why are you intentionally misreading what I said

These two statements don't actually line up. You're strawmanning on semantics.

[Mastermind of Sin]

why are you so worried about the town having an advantage UNLESS AN TOWN ADVANTAGE PUTS YOU IN DANGER




listen you are so obviously scum its sad, you keep trying to distract the town with the stink you're raising about the cops, hoping we all won't see just how truly scummy you are. Can we please just kill this guy?

You have got to be the shittiest troll I've ever seen

^bad trolling.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You bet Ts *is*, insane, or claims to be?

Claims to be. I'm pretty sure TS is scum, but I'll wait for the results. TS needs to claim first. As much as he annoys the hell out of me, Lemmings' claim is a helluva lot more believable than TS's. Regardless of what the result is, TS should claim first. No one's going to act until we get both results.

TS goes first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This statement by MOS is tantamount to saying that ZONEACE is a completely crappy player, which makes me wonder why ZONEACE then refers to it so proudly:

Zoneace is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy.

This is a crap argument, unless MOS is saying ZONEACE is such a dreadful player that he clearly telegraphs it when he's scum. So why is ZONEACE agreeing so happily with MOS saying he's a horrible player? Hint: MOS isn't really being your friend when he says he could tell if you were playing scum, ZONEACE. Not everyone who votes for you is scum, and not everyone who buddies up to you is town.

Bookitty, just so you know, I say this in every game where ZONEACE exhibits his protown behavior. This is not lijmited to this game. It's something that can be varified by looking at other games since ZONEACE came back. So I'm not even trying to buddy up. I'd like to consider saying that a null tell. It's a meta on a meta, you could say.

[Mastermind of Sin]

oh god i thought you were smarter than that.

it reads protect the tracker because lemming is naive/insane or scum and shouldn't be protected.

Well that depends on the lynch result. If TS is the godfather then Lemming is, in my opinion, a sane cop. The kills last night make no sense if they're opposing scum - one of them would be dead by now.

I disagree. If you were a scum who had counterclaimed the other cop, killing them just makes you look scummier for being alive. However, it's probably a good idea unless you have a backup plan to stop the other "cop" from investigating you (roleblocker, GF, etc). I would not be surprised if one/both of them was a godfather (they both claim to have results, so not a mafia roleblocker).

[Mastermind of Sin]

And now I got to page 54...did the cops claim and I missed that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's what I get for thinking I was caught up to like page 51, when I missed like the last 8 pages.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm pretty sure that Lemming's scum group could have taken TS out without much risk, even if she

was

a cop.

Point taken.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Due to threats on my life if I don't comply, I'm changing Toaster Strudel's role name to "Mafia Godmother" for political correctness.

*notthreatening*

Not thrilled with Flare or Scøpe, but let's go with a

vote: Sir Tornado

for his 1206.

I forgot to ask this yesterday: was I missing something between JDodge and White?

I'm on limited access as well--until Sunday.

That's pretty scummy, but what happened to being suspicious of Zorg/BM? I'm pretty sure there is a much better case for them to be scum atm.

Vote: Battle Mage

I believe I was roleblocked. My flavor was basically "investigation failed" and no other flavor.

So the mafia had a godfather and a roleblocker (I highly doubt a protown roleblocker would be stupid enough to block you). The solution to this is simple. If we have a watcher (we have a tracker and a cop, why not a watcher? It balances out the scum power roles, at least), they should watch lemming tonight. This way the scum have to give up their roleblocker to the watcher or let lemming investigate someone. Either way, we get another scum out of the deal, and lemming can start investigating again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Uhh, Setael, you died...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Setael... You are dead.

BM. Did you miss ZONEACE directing the Doc last night? Didn't hear anything on that from you... What MoS said was much less directive than ZONEACE. K-scope tried to direct the vig at the end of day 1 too. No comment on that from you either. And, remind me why directing power roles is bad too.

Ether, what exactly do you find scummy in my post?

I havent read that stuff yet. lol
I only commented on MoS's post because i saw a glaring scumtell. Directing power roles is scummy in this context, because it was pretty obvious who the Watcher would target. There was no reason for that comment, other than to fish for a power role.

Hence, scummy.

BM

I don't see how it was obvious for that to be the plan. I really don't. Sure, it seems like common sense now that I've said it, but I really doubt everyone would have thought of that plan.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, if it was obvious that the Watcher would do it, then there's nothing scummy about me suggesting it. Directing power roles is only scummy if the direction is towards suboptimal play. I suggested the optimal plan for the watcher, so you'll have a hard time painting it as a "glaring scumtell".

[Mastermind of Sin]

Okay, based on a variety of things, most notably his insistence on directing the play of those with night actions, I'm going to

vote ZONEACE

I realise that this will be greeted with a chorus of people saying that he always plays like this and it's not at all scummy, but I find it scummy, and if he always plays like that, then he should learn how not to play so scummy as town.

I would like you to personally explain WHAT is scummy about him directing the play of those with night actions. Please provide examples and charts with your presentation (ok maybe not charts, but examples for sure). Be thorough and logical as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, I forgot about the doc. Although I suppose the watcher doesn't have to claim his targets. It'd still be a good idea to target them, because then you know one person is the doc and the other is scum, and can act accordingly. It's good information for a watcher to have, but you're right that it'd be bad to share it with the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Out of curiosity, Mastermind of Sin, do you feel you've spent a great deal of this game defending and/or answering arguments made against or to ZONEACE? If so, why?

Not really.

I did notice you ignored my response and counter-question to you earlier, but I figured you would, so I'm not sad.

Hmm? I must've missed it. Lemme go back and find it while I reread.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If the scum know precisely who the doctor will be protecting, when multiple pro-town roles have been revealed, then they can coordinate the efforts of their own special roles in order to ensure, and in fact maximise, the advantage of their nightkill.

Agreed.

I would like you to explain how it is helpful to town for the scum to know precisely who will be protected when multiple pro-town roles have been outed, and why, exactly, you feel that ZONEACE was more qualified to make and announce such decisions than the person who actually HAD the night choice to make. I think that would be interesting.

It's not helpful for the scum to know this. If the doctor had claimed and said who they were protecting, I would be pissed.

Now, on a related extension of the first question, please explain what is scummy about discussing the doctor's protection options so that the doctor knows what reasons there are for them to protect various players in the game. Also explain why it is not helpful for the town to do this. Also point out where the town agreed with ZONEACE's suggestions, therefore guaranteeing to the scum who would be protected.

I'm sure you see what I'm getting at by now.

I would like you to personally explain WHAT is scummy about him directing the play of those with night actions. Please provide examples and charts with your presentation (ok maybe not charts, but examples for sure). Be thorough and logical as well.

Are you kidding me.

You have been protecting zoneace all game, jumping to his defense at every chance, and now this? This has gotta be the worse defense ever.

And now this? Good job not even explain what's so scummy about "this".

How about this, you provide us with how it's a good thing, with charts and presentations, of why it's ok to direct power roles.

Until then,

VOTE: Mastermind of Sin

See above.

I think that his interactions with her were pretty suspect all the way down the line, from making sure we all knew multiple cops were a possibility, nay, a probability, virtually guaranteed (exaggeration only slight, and intended to point out the tone of his argument) to the bitter end.

And you don't find it scummy at all that other players have said that it was virtually guaranteed that we could only have one cop this entire time? I never said it was more than possible. The fact that I've had to repeat myself (and therefore cannot be expected to use the exact same wording every time) is only proof of the fact that people have repeatedly asserted that it was NOT a possibility. It's not like I'm the only one who felt multiple cops was possible. I find it interesting that I'm apparently the only one who is scummy for believing this.

I also note that at any point when anyone has landed a vote or suspicion on ZONEACE Mastermind of Sin has popped up to defend him, even trying to get Lemming (who I believe to be a cop, based on evidence) thrown out of the entire game for upsetting ZONEACE.

I tried to get Lemming thrown out because he was deliberately being an immature asshole for no other reason than the fact that he didn't like how ZONEACE was acting. There was no game-related purpose to his flaming, he just did it because he could. That was unacceptable.

Also, what does Lemming being a cop have anything to do with this? He hadn't even claimed when I asked him to be replaced, and it's not like replacing him would affect his role being in the game. My request to remove Lemming was entirely based on non-game reasons. It had nothing to do with his role or who I felt was town/scum.

I'm in process of doing a thorough reread, but I find it more than suspicious that I place one lonely little vote on ZONEACE, Mastermind of Sin pops up to make a really odd request for a logical defense of my argument (which I'd already made, I thought), and when I do so, and ask him to make his, he doesn't respond. He makes comments to others, but he's oddly silent.

You fail to take into account the fact that I only popped into the thread to make one response to a post before leaving on V/LA for the weekend (as indicated by my signature). So of course I'm gonna be fucking silent, I didn't even have internet access for over 48 hours. Duh.

And at this point I will say that Mastermind of Sin's reaction to that one vote was an overreaction, like pretty much everything he's done all game regarding ZONEACE has been, at least in my opinion.

You'll find that my reactions regarding ZONEACE are consistent in any game where he has been attacked for his playstyle since returning to MS. The fact that you consider this a scumtell merely means that you haven't done your homework.

Bookitty took the question right out of my mouth. And for the record I think it is perfectly fine to vote someone for defending a living player. Ergo's snapping at lemming is not justified.

MoS just seems really awkward right now around Battle Mage. It feels he is overcompensating for being weak on TS.

I still, however, prefer a jdodge wagon.

Awkward in what way? I've been suspicious of Zorg for quite some time now. The fact that TS was lynched before I could chime in on her and Lemming's investigation results is unfortunate, but can hardly be painted as anything other than a coincidence. I still stand by everything I said about multiple cops the day before. The fact that TS was lying (something I readily admitted was a possibility, and likely, even) doesn't change the fact that multiple cops was possible.

Gonna

unvote; vote: JDodge

, partially in light of Colin's "stances" metagame comment, partially out of the desire to get a wagon I have some sort of preference for going.

I'm still rereading and preparing an argument regarding MoS. I do have a response to this, though.

If I popped up, every time someone accused JDodge of behaving scummily, and said, "This is just his playstyle! OMG OMG!" and then asked them to justify their vote on scummy JDodge (and I believe that it IS his playstyle, by the way) without ever giving any real defense of him...

Except JDodge specifically tries to play a little differently in every game to destroy metas on himself. I learned that one the hard way. But I'm sure you realize this and were just using him as an example, right?

As far as the example goes, if you defended X player based on a playstyle meta in every game, that wouldn't be scummy. It would be

consistent

. It would have no bearing on either X's alignment or yours.

I think you'd find that fairly odd, and scummy. I'm not doing that, because I don't know JDodge's alignment. And MoS doing it, to the extent of attacking pretty much everyone who ever votes for ZONEACE and demanding explanations for that, while refusing to respond to questions in kind?

Why are you emphasizing the fact that I missed your response

once

? I make an effort to reply to nearly every post addressed to me, and I think I've done a prett damn good job of it this game. However, just because I was V/LA (since before you asked your question, even, but especially Friday through Sunday) and missed one post directed towards me, you have repeatedly harped upon me, saying that I refuse to respond to questions asked of me. This seems like a huge overstatement and fairly scummy to boot.

Setael... You are dead.

BM. Did you miss ZONEACE directing the Doc last night? Didn't hear anything on that from you... What MoS said was much less directive than ZONEACE. K-scope tried to direct the vig at the end of day 1 too. No comment on that from you either. And, remind me why directing power roles is bad too.

Ether, what exactly do you find scummy in my post?

I havent read that stuff yet. lol
I only commented on MoS's post because i saw a glaring scumtell. Directing power roles is scummy in this context, because it was pretty obvious who the Watcher would target. There was no reason for that comment, other than to fish for a power role.

Hence, scummy.

BM

I don't see how it was obvious for that to be the plan. I really don't. Sure, it seems like common sense now that I've said it, but I really doubt everyone would have thought of that plan.

You underestimate us.

Riiiiiight.

I edited out the first part of this next post, since I think I've already covered my position on ZONEACE multiple times. Repeating this would just waste space that I've already used above.

Then Erg0 and MoS congratulate each other for a little while by quoting each other and appending QFT. MoS argues with JDodge for a bit about White, and then votes White, saying "The inconsistencies TS pointed out seem really blaring. Since I do tend to hate on the Oppressor, I could see him trying to buddy up to me if he was scum. A valid point was made, and I'll follow up on it."

What is the point of this paragraph?

This looks like classic distancing to me, accusing but backing off in the same paragraph:

I think TS is scum who felt an easy wagon on White and pushed it just a little too hard. However, I still think Zorg is more likely scum than TS. They could easily be scumbuddies, though. I don't remember either of them ever commenting on the other. Scum often forget to comment on each other because they don't want to be associated together.

Do you disagree with the statements I made? What do you think of Zorg/Battle Mage? I don't recall you ever weighing in on what he's done. I think there is a pretty decent case against him, so why is it scummy that I was attacking him?

ToasterStrudel catches some heat, and Mastermind of Sin votes her, then unvotes when she makes her false cop claim. And here's where some of us think MoS made his fatal mistake:

I've covered this before. No one has yet to show me how multiple cops was not a reasonable possibility to consider in a game of this size. It happens more than enough to be worth thinking about.

Most of this post strikes me wrong, and I'm thinking that you're claiming cop just to survive a couple extra days. So IGMEOY: TS

However, even a counterclaim won't prove TS scum, since we could have multiple cops. I'm willing to give TS a chance for now, but we need to watch her like a hawk. She'll slip eventually if she's scum.

Also notice that she *still* hasn't answered many of the accusations against her.

It's all very good distancing, except that at this point it doesn't really look like we have multiple cops, and so his statement in advance of Lemming's counterclaim seems to be a defense of TS in case there was such a counterclaim. Erg0 comes to MoS's defense on this (oooh, seeing a pattern here): "Regardless of your own experience, on this site it's relatively common to have multiple cops (not sane cops, but cops all the same) in a game of this size. I don't come into a game thinking "oh, there will be multiple cops in this game", but seeing multiple cop claims on day 1 forces me to consider the possibility." But at the point that MoS made his statement about multiple cops, ONLY ToasterStrudel had claimed cop. So MoS did NOT see multiple cop claims before his statement.

So because Erg0 said that seeing multiple cop claims makes him think of the possibility, I am suddenly constrained to Erg0's pattern of thinking? The fact that I try to think of the possibilities and play accordingly makes me scummy because other people didn't? Your reasoning isn't logical here.

Some heated debate, and Erg0 again supports MoS's argument: "Unsurprisingly, I agree with MoS about the content of his earlier post. Please, let's skip the "I'm the cop, do as I say" discussion. We're just wasting more time here."

Since when is agreeing with me a scumtell? Erg0 isn't the only one.

I don't fault MoS at all for his arguing against lynching a claimed cop (ToasterStrudel) on Day One. This seems like sound reasoning and I actually find it pretty protown on his part.

Then why the fuck are you attacking me for it?

ZONEACE puts a vote on ToasterStrudel during this time period, for reasons I actually understood for once, and MoS says nothing at all about it, however. Which seems sort of off, considering how protective MoS has been of ZONEACE to this point... or maybe it doesn't.

Why am I required to comment on every little thing ZONEACE does? I don't expect to agree with everything ZONEACE does. That doesn't mean I find him scummy for it.

Waits for the cops to claim, and indicates suspicion of ToasterStrudel (again, not scummy in my eyes, because that's what most of the town was thinking at that point, so far as I can tell).

Again, why are you attacking me for it, then?

Then he claims he hasn't read most of the recent arguments, and makes this extremely weird comment:

And now I got to page 54...did the cops claim and I missed that?

after ToasterStrudel had already been lynched-- a convenient excuse for not having voted for her? Could be.

You do realize that I had not posted in this game at all during most of the day, right? I hadn't seen what had happened since my last post, so when I went to the most current post and noticed TS had already been lynched, it naturally occurred to me that I hadn't even seen either cop claim before TS was lynched. Since it only makes sense for the cops to claim before we acted (the reason I had not voted TS yet), I asked if the cops had claimed already. You'll notice that I later mentioned that I had missed several more pages than I thought I had, which accounted for the fact that I had missed the cop claims.

Still hyperprotective of ZONEACE even at this point. And Erg0 comes to MoS's defense yet again.

I find the linkages between these three players suspicious. It's possible there's an innocent explanation, but they've linked themselves together pretty dramatically at this point, and I'm not seeing a pro-town reason why that should be.

As always, correct any errors or omissions.

So basically I'm suspicious because I know how ZONEACE plays and I didn't want to lynch TS day 1 (something you

agreed

with.). ZONEACE is suspicious because he's always suspicious, and because I pointed this out. Erg0 is suspicious because he agrees with the logic that I've presented. Therefore all 3 of us are suspicious and scumbuddies with TS. Am I missing anything here? This seems like a really weak house of cards to me.

JDodge, did you actually have a case against White on day 1 or were you just bluffing?

vote MoS

Care to provide a reason, or are you just trying to throw fuel on the fire?

I think ZONEACE is probably town. I think he usually behaves extremely scummily as town, and thus is a perennial candidate for lynching. I think that MoS knew this, and began defending him on the thought that ZONEACE would likely be lynched early, and MoS would get townie points for having defended him. I think this gambit has gotten out of hand since ZONEACE was not lynched early, and now MoS is forced to continue it well past its point of real usefulness, just to look consistent.

This *might* be a decent argument if not for the fact that I will

always

defend ZONEACE in a situation like this, regardless of alignment, because it's a null tell for him. The fact that I defend ZONEACE's playstyle is a null tell for me, and therefore I cannot be expecting to get townie points for defending him. In fact, since I have successfully defended ZONEACE from lynch before, how would I be expecting him to get lynched early? I am establishing a track record for keeping him from being lynched, so my defense of him actually accomplishes the opposite effect of what you are accusing me of hoping for.

I note that MoS latched on to your defense of ZONEACE, not vice versa. He was desperately repeating his claim that ZONEACE was town, but he didn't have a good argument, so he stole yours. That makes him seem scummy, not you.

I agreed with Erg0's argument

in addition

to comments I already made. I've already explained myself regarding this.

Additionally, there's no advantage to scum in buddying up to other scum, so I'm thinking you are town, at the moment.

Wait, didn't you just say, and I quote:

I find the linkages between these three players [MoS, ZONEACE, Erg0] suspicious.

Clarification mine.

So what happened to Erg0 being suspicious?

I STILL haven't developed the stomach to reread yet, but i think it is worth noting for those of who aren't able to Meta Zoneace, the last time i saw MoS and him play together, they interacted in nearly the same way, both defending each other hard. MoS was scum, and Zoneace was protown. (Btw, this was MoC). I find it hard to believe that as soon after this game as it is, Zoneace has forgotten this. In any case, my point is that them vouching for each other is not an indicator of them sharing alignment, but it could suggest scumminess on the part of MoS, not to mention that their vouching for each other is at best, fairly unreliable, as despite their shared games, they don't seem to have a great grasp of each other's play.

BM

I don't have a great grasp of ZONEACE's play? ROFL. I have yet to be wrong about him. It's not even about whether or not he's protown, though. It's about him getting attacked for stuff that he always does. His comment about the power roles and my response to Bookitty was not meant as a meta-defense of ZONEACE's playstyle. I'm fairly sure I've made my point about the power roles above.

What I feel is, that MoS has been trying to scum link with me today, like his post 1383, where he goes:

That's pretty scummy, but what happened to being suspicious of Zorg/BM? I'm pretty sure there is a much better case for them to be scum atm.

The "pretty scummy" part was some post which I posted yesterday pointed out by Ether (who still hasn't explained how it was scummy). I don't like the way MoS simply says it is scummy (when I don't think it is) and then tries to deflect attention from it. It seems like a subtle ploy to take me down with him if he is scum.

As far as I recall, I was asking Ether what happened to her suspicion of Zorg/BM, since she hadn't even mentioned them recently but was already making other votes on people.

In fact, I'm going to go dig that post up.

Due to threats on my life if I don't comply, I'm changing Toaster Strudel's role name to "Mafia Godmother" for political correctness.

*notthreatening*

Not thrilled with Flare or Scøpe, but let's go with a

vote: Sir Tornado

for his 1206.

I forgot to ask this yesterday: was I missing something between JDodge and White?

I'm on limited access as well--until Sunday.

That's pretty scummy, but what happened to being suspicious of Zorg/BM? I'm pretty sure there is a much better case for them to be scum atm.

Yup, that's what it was. I don't really see how you can imply that I was doing anything other than wondering what made Ether change targets today.

It wasn't completely useless, but you're correct in saying that it was flawed. Having said that, I didn't see the problem immediately and thought it was a decent idea on the face of it. Based on that, I have to accept that it's possible that MoS just didn't see the problem.

From what I have heard, Is mos not better than making a misjudgement in this manner?

So now I'm being burdened with a proficiency fallacy? Great argument there, Niv.

I don't think this is a parallel. If JDodge did what I attacked him for every game, I'd have no choice but to tune my scumdar accordingly, and I'd be agitated but look into your statement. (Colin has actually said that this is

against

JDodge's metagame.)

I wasn't drawing a parallel between your actions and anyone else's in this specific case, but rather making a more general analogy. It was a general you, not you specifically. I agree that JDodge is acting scummy, but I always think he acts scummy, so I think I'm not the best judge of this. Others have a lot more experience with his playstyle than I do, and apparently can tolerate it better.

Wait a minute...let's see here. I have a lot more experience with ZONEACE's playstyle than you do, and I can apparently tolerate it better, but suddenly you're the best judge of his playstyle and I'm scummy for defending it?

Major FoS: BooKitty

Would requesting the replacement of TS have been more acceptable?

Hmmm, hadn't thought about it like that. But I suppose I thought it hypocritical for MoS to defend ZONEACE's abusive posts against anyone and everyone who disagreed with him, while trying to get someone else actually thrown out of the game for much less. I consider hypocrisy a scumtell, and since I think Lemming is town, I weighted it more heavily. If it had been practiced against someone now known to be scum, and for the same reasons, I would not weight it so heavily.

Why does alignment matter at all here? I'm not trying to get any

role

thrown out of the game. I wasn't asking for a modkill, the role wouldn't go anywhere. I was asking for Lemming himself to be removed and replaced with another player, which has nothing to do with his alignment.

Why the jabs at Erg0 in your 1430 MoS analysis if you think he's town? They did look like jabs.

Because I'm not sure Erg0 is town. I wanted an honest reaction about the connections I'd seen, and I thought that pointing them out in that way might elicit an explanation. The connections exist and are fairly obvious, and I'd like them explained.

But you said he was suspicious and then in the very next post said he was town. Why say he was town if you're not sure he is town?

Keep in mind that MoS has asserted that he

does

defend ZONEACE in every game.

What about this?

There's this:

edited because I responded to this already

and before that I'd said this:

I think ZONEACE is probably town. I think he usually behaves extremely scummily as town, and thus is a perennial candidate for lynching. I think that MoS knew this, and began defending him on the thought that ZONEACE would likely be lynched early, and MoS would get townie points for having defended him. I think this gambit has gotten out of hand since ZONEACE was not lynched early, and now MoS is forced to continue it well past its point of real usefulness, just to look consistent.

Or am I being dense and missing the point of your question?

So why are you willing to trust someone who says JDodge is acting like town, instead of thinking that they are people trying to get townie points for defending him?

I smell a severe case of tunnel vision here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I don't really know ZONEACE all that well. I think I've talked to him outside of a game all of...3 times, maybe. However, I don't like it when people are attacked for being consistent with their playstyle. It's in the town's interest,

regardless of my own alignment

, to not lynch ZONEACE just based upon his playstyle. Why is it bad for the town that I am willing to do something helpful for the town regardless of my own alignment? I never said that my defense of him was based on any "affection" or w/e you want to call it. It's based on the fact that lynching ZONEACE for his playstyle will not net you a scum lynch. Not netting a scum lynch isn't on behalf of the town. Therefore, preventing it IS on behalf of the town. My acting in behalf of the town regardless of my own alignment does not make me scummy. ZONEACE is always abrasive, and he always looks scummy. That doesn't make him scum. Your "point" about his power role direction is the kind of stuff that IS a good argument against him, because that's more than just playstyle. Obviously, though, I take issue with the point itself, which doesn't have anything to do with ZONEACE.

P.S. - If someone announced they were scum in Day 1 of all their games, I would rightfully (and very logically) ignore it and say that it is not indicative of their alignment. How could you act any differently and still be acting in the interests of lynching scum?

P.P.S. - I look forward to you responding to the rest of my points made in the last post.

[Mastermind of Sin]

AIt's in the town's interest,

regardless of my own alignment

, to not lynch ZONEACE just based upon his playstyle. Why is it bad for the town that I am willing to do something helpful for the town regardless of my own alignment?

So you often act on behalf of the town when you're playing scum? Are your scumbuddies aware of this propensity on your part? Do you occasionally just give the game to town, out of altruism, in these cases?

1) Most definitely.
2) When I'm scum, I don't usually talk to my scumbuddies, so I wouldn't know. Plus, they usually end up dead anyways
3) Nope. I occasioally just win.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree. This sort of unwavering defense of ZONEFACE - in this case - is cheating by bringing outside influences into the game.

Metagaming is not cheating.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree. This sort of unwavering defense of ZONEFACE - in this case - is cheating by bringing outside influences into the game.

Metagaming is not cheating.

it is when you admit that you'll defend him regardless of alignment, which is contradictory to the one that says you should play to win

It's not contradictory in any way, whatsoever.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To everyone else: I realise this is mostly repetitive. And if you want to skip it, I don't blame you at all. I just don't like leaving questions unanswered out there.

Now, on a related extension of the first question, please explain what is scummy about discussing the doctor's protection options so that the doctor knows what reasons there are for them to protect various players in the game. Also explain why it is not helpful for the town to do this. Also point out where the town agreed with ZONEACE's suggestions, therefore guaranteeing to the scum who would be protected.

ZONEACE did not "discuss the doctor's protection options". He told the doctor who to protect. Repeatedly. Why do you suppose he did this, if he were merely discussion options, and did not really want the doctor to take his advice? After the fact, he repeatedly reminded us that the tracker would still be alive if the doctor had taken his advice. So clearly ZONEACE felt that he should have been listened to, his instructions followed, and that indeed is MORE than discussing options.

You're begging the question, here. This isn't about ZONEACE. Only the last request was about ZONEACE, and only tangentially. Please answer the actual question instead of evading it by bringing ZONEACE into the picture.

And you don't find it scummy at all that other players have said that it was virtually guaranteed that we could only have one cop this entire time? I never said it was more than possible. The fact that I've had to repeat myself (and therefore cannot be expected to use the exact same wording every time) is only proof of the fact that people have repeatedly asserted that it was NOT a possibility. It's not like I'm the only one who felt multiple cops was possible. I find it interesting that I'm apparently the only one who is scummy for believing this.

It seemed suspicious that you would think of that immediately upon her roleclaim. I stand by this. It IS suspicious, because it's something scum would immediately know was a possibility. I'm not saying you could not have come up with it as town. I'm saying it is much more likely for scum to think of it, because they'd KNOW it was a likelihood.

How would scum KNOW the setup any more than town? That's a ridiculous assertion to make. The scum have no clue that there are two cops any more than the town does.

I tried to get Lemming thrown out because he was deliberately being an immature asshole for no other reason than the fact that he didn't like how ZONEACE was acting. There was no game-related purpose to his flaming, he just did it because he could. That was unacceptable.

What is the game-related purpose of cursing at people and calling them names for disagreeing with you? I'm not complaining, I'm just curious.

He's cursing at them and calling them names

for stuff that they've done

. Let me give you examples. Disclaimer: I'm not saying that either person said exactly this, I'm just illustrating the point.

ZONEACE: "You're all fucking idiots for bandwagoning me."

Lemming: "Haha ZONEACE is a retard, everyone laugh at him!"

ZONEACE's comment is actually mostly game-related, telling us that the bandwagon on him is stupid, whereas Lemming's was clearly made with the intent to flame ZONEACE, and no other purpose.

Also, what does Lemming being a cop have anything to do with this? He hadn't even claimed when I asked him to be replaced, and it's not like replacing him would affect his role being in the game. My request to remove Lemming was entirely based on non-game reasons. It had nothing to do with his role or who I felt was town/scum.

What were these non-game reasons? The fact that he was upsetting ZONEACE?

This is like the 5th time I've seen you say that I asked Lemming to be replaced for "upsetting ZONEACE". You're a fucking broken record. Why the fuck do you keep saying that? I said nothing of the sort. I don't care what ZONEACE's reaction to Lemming is. If ZONEACE went and laughed off what Lemming said, that wouldn't change my actions. I asked for Lemming to be replaced

because he was flaming people just to flame, and for no real game-related purpose.

It had nothing to do with

anyone's

alignment or reactions.

You'll find that my reactions regarding ZONEACE are consistent in any game where he has been attacked for his playstyle since returning to MS. The fact that you consider this a scumtell merely means that you haven't done your homework.

I consider it weird. I'd like to know why you feel it necessary to protect someone who clearly has a scummy playstyle (or you wouldn't ALWAYS be having to protect him) and whom you don't even know very well. Why is ZONEACE your special project?

ZONEACE isn't an exception to the rule. Have you ever heard of Internet Stranger? He is a player that was always scummy and got lynched a lot, to the point that he even quit MS once (from what I hear). However, he came back, kept the same playstyle, and people adjusted to his scummy playstyle. I would argue that IS is one of the best mafia players this site has seen. I'm not claiming that ZONEACE is the next IS, but he's not the only person with a scummy playstyle. I can name several more: PeaceBringer, Baby Jesus, Dranko, Friztler, Meaning of Life 42, etc. Just because someone has a scummy playstyle does not mean that they should be lynched. You have to account for their scummy playstyle and then use that as a comparison to see if they are actually scum. The reason I defended him is because I don't want to see him lynched for being himself. I want to see him lynched because he actually did something that he would do as scum, instead of normal consistent activities.

Then Erg0 and MoS congratulate each other for a little while by quoting each other and appending QFT. MoS argues with JDodge for a bit about White, and then votes White, saying "The inconsistencies TS pointed out seem really blaring. Since I do tend to hate on the Oppressor, I could see him trying to buddy up to me if he was scum. A valid point was made, and I'll follow up on it."

What is the point of this paragraph?

I thought it interesting that I perceived you as buddying up to ZONEACE, and you agreed with TS while accusing White of possibly using the same tactic. The rest was pointing out the linking between you and Erg0.

Except that I normally think White is always scummy, and he was acting

differently

than he normally did, by my perception. ZONEACE was being consistent, White was not. That's why my vote changed to him for a while.

I've covered this before. No one has yet to show me how multiple cops was not a reasonable possibility to consider in a game of this size. It happens more than enough to be worth thinking about.

And I pointed out that while it's possible for town to have thought of that immediately, it's CERTAIN that scum would have done so, knowing Toaster Strudel's actual role.

Would they? What makes you think there was zero chance that a scum would have instead thought to make it a claim/counterclaim situation and just stall for time? I don't think it's at all

certain

that scum would come up with this. I think there is a probability that they would, and it might be higher, but that's completely dependent on

who

is scum. I'd like to think that I'm pretty good at considering the options, so I don't really see how it makes

me

more likely to think of it as scum than as town.

So because Erg0 said that seeing multiple cop claims makes him think of the possibility, I am suddenly constrained to Erg0's pattern of thinking? The fact that I try to think of the possibilities and play accordingly makes me scummy because other people didn't? Your reasoning isn't logical here.

After you'd already brought it up, of course everyone considered it, especially since it then happened. Well, but we don't really have multiple cops, and you pointed it out right after Toaster Strudel's claim, and as I said, scum would KNOW that there was a likelihood of a real cop out there, and it looks like covering for Toaster Strudel's risky and ultimately doomed gambit.

This paragraph doesn't actually answer the questions posed at all. You're deflecting it onto rhetoric you've already said instead of actually answering the question.

Since when is agreeing with me a scumtell? Erg0 isn't the only one.

No, not at all. It's an example of linkages.

So why aren't you suspicious of, let's say, Ether for agreeing with me and thinking the MoS suspicion is crap? Why no one but Erg0?

I don't fault MoS at all for his arguing against lynching a claimed cop (ToasterStrudel) on Day One. This seems like sound reasoning and I actually find it pretty protown on his part.

Then why the fuck are you attacking me for it?

I try to present the evidence impartially, insofar as that's possible. I don't find it helpful to town to give a one-sided view of things, and I felt this was evidence on your behalf. Oh, and don't curse at me. Especially when I was saying something nice about you.

I'm sick right now and feeling a little terse. You presented the post as if it was a case

against

me, and presented the facts in a manner that seemed to say it pointed towards me being scum, and then turn around and said that a large part of what you posted made me look protown. I'm sure you can see why I wasn't happy with how that went down.

Why am I required to comment on every little thing ZONEACE does? I don't expect to agree with everything ZONEACE does. That doesn't mean I find him scummy for it.

You're absolutely NOT required to comment on every little thing that ZONEACE does. It just seemed like you WERE, and I imagine if someone had criticised him for doing this (even though I doubt you'd agree with his vote), you'd have jumped all over them. It seems in character, anyway.

I've hardly commented on everything ZONEACE did. I feel like I've largely not talked about him for the majority of my posts. It's probably something that needs to change, in fact.

Waits for the cops to claim, and indicates suspicion of ToasterStrudel (again, not scummy in my eyes, because that's what most of the town was thinking at that point, so far as I can tell).

Again, why are you attacking me for it, then?

Honestly, calm down. Again, it's NOT an attack. I am making as unbiased a case as I can, and that includes pointing out things you've done that are pro-town in my view, along with the scummy things.

Again, clarify this when you say it, since you talked about it as if it was scummy earlier.

You do realize that I had not posted in this game at all during most of the day, right? I hadn't seen what had happened since my last post, so when I went to the most current post and noticed TS had already been lynched, it naturally occurred to me that I hadn't even seen either cop claim before TS was lynched. Since it only makes sense for the cops to claim before we acted (the reason I had not voted TS yet), I asked if the cops had claimed already. You'll notice that I later mentioned that I had missed several more pages than I thought I had, which accounted for the fact that I had missed the cop claims.

Yes, but I've also seen the identical gambit used by scum trying to excuse their lack of vote on their scumbuddy. I presented it as evidence, and explained what I thought of it. Your defence is noted.

I think lurking gambits are the most bullshit thing ever. If you see me lurking through a game

because

I'm scum, please tell the mod to modkill me. It's retarded. I will always stand by this.

So basically I'm suspicious because I know how ZONEACE plays

You claim this is a nulltell, that you always help town, no matter whether you're scum or not, because you're so pro-town that even as scum you don't want town to mess up and lynch ZONEACE. Forgive me if I find that a little ... less than credible.

You want proof? Look at Match of Champions. I was scum there, and I tried very hard to keep ZONEACE from being lynched while I was in the game. It wasn't until I was replaced that I grudgingly told my replacement it was probably a decent idea for

him

to go after ZONEACE instead of trying to stay consistent with his predecessor's views.

and I didn't want to lynch TS day 1 (something you

agreed

with.).

No, as I explained, that was in your favour. I don't think anyone ELSE had difficulty understanding this.

See above explanation.

ZONEACE is suspicious because he's always suspicious, and because I pointed this out. Erg0 is suspicious because he agrees with the logic that I've presented. Therefore all 3 of us are suspicious and scumbuddies with TS. Am I missing anything here? This seems like a really weak house of cards to me.

Not at all what I have said, or ever said. Nice straw man though. Pretty easy to knock down, but I applaud the effort.

This *might* be a decent argument if not for the fact that I will

always

defend ZONEACE in a situation like this, regardless of alignment, because it's a null tell for him. The fact that I defend ZONEACE's playstyle is a null tell for me, and therefore I cannot be expecting to get townie points for defending him. In fact, since I have successfully defended ZONEACE from lynch before, how would I be expecting him to get lynched early? I am establishing a track record for keeping him from being lynched, so my defense of him actually accomplishes the opposite effect of what you are accusing me of hoping for.

I just find it really impressive that you can put your need to defend ZONEACE over any consideration of winning the game for your team.

If I'm scum in a game, I can win without having to lynch ZONEACE. If I'm town, lynching a protown ZONEACE is a bad idea. Therefore, it's not really a contradiction with my team's goals to defend ZONEACE from bullshit arguments, regardless of my own alignment.

Also, I find it really odd that you expect a scum's every move to be made in the sole interest of hurting the town. That would make this game far too easy.

Additionally, there's no advantage to scum in buddying up to other scum, so I'm thinking you are town, at the moment.

Wait, didn't you just say, and I quote:

I find the linkages between these three players [MoS, ZONEACE, Erg0] suspicious.

Clarification mine.

So what happened to Erg0 being suspicious?

What part of "I'm

thinking

you are town,

at the moment

" are you missing? I find the linkages suspicious. I find it highly unlikely that all three of you are scum. I think it highly likely that ONE of you is, though.

If you think 1 of us is scum, but not all 3, why are you bothering to point out the links?

I don't have a great grasp of ZONEACE's play? ROFL. I have yet to be wrong about him.

It's not even about whether or not he's protown, though. It's about him getting attacked for stuff that he always does.

His comment about the power roles and my response to Bookitty was not meant as a meta-defense of ZONEACE's playstyle. I'm fairly sure I've made my point about the power roles above.

So what happened to this being a pro-town gambit? Here you're saying it doesn't even matter. You just don't like ZONEACE getting attacked for stuff he always does, whether he's protown or not. So all that protown stuff about acting on behalf of the town... that was just nonsense, hmmm?

Not nonsense. It's not in the town's best interest to judge him by his

normal

playstyle. If he's scum once out of 10 times they lynch him for being naturally scummy, it's still not in the town's best interest. They got lucky, that's it.

Wait a minute...let's see here. I have a lot more experience with ZONEACE's playstyle than you do, and I can apparently tolerate it better, but suddenly you're the best judge of his playstyle and I'm scummy for defending it?

I think you're scummy for lots of reasons. I think JDodge may be scum, but I feel much more certain that you are. I'm not claiming myself the best judge of anyone's playstyle, but I can identify the ones I find scummy, and vote accordingly, just as everyone else does.

You may find me scummy for lots of reasons, but my defense of ZONEACE is clearly one of them. Therefore, you must think it's a valid reason for me to be scum, which means that my experience playing with ZONEACE means nothing and so clearly my defense of him cannot mean that I am simply a better judge of his playstyle. Yet you turn around and say that you will trust other people's judgements about JDodge.

Why does alignment matter at all here? I'm not trying to get any

role

thrown out of the game. I wasn't asking for a modkill, the role wouldn't go anywhere. I was asking for Lemming himself to be removed and replaced with another player, which has nothing to do with his alignment.

All right. I accept your explanation here, but I don't like the bullying tactic you initiated, when I felt that ZONEACE's behaviour was in fact much worse.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I think Lemming's behavior was worse. However, I feel justified in my "bullying tactic", which I like to call shock therapy. Given that Lemming has definitely toned it down since then, I feel my "tactic" was just fine.

But you said he was suspicious and then in the very next post said he was town. Why say he was town if you're not sure he is town?

I said I thought he was town. I do think he's town. I don't KNOW he's town, though. How would I be "sure" of that?

It's just odd to attack someone and then turn around and say you "think" they are town.

So why are you willing to trust someone who says JDodge is acting like town, instead of thinking that they are people trying to get townie points for defending him?

I'm not. But I've played a game where JDodge acted the same way, and he was town in that, and I surely would have thought he was scum.

Well I've played a game where ZONEACE acted the same way, and he was town in that, and I surely thought he was scum there. So what is the difference? What makes you allowed to meta-judge JDodge and me not allowed to meta-judge ZONEACE?

Then again, he's never tried to tell me that even as scum he had the town's best interests at heart. That's one of the funnier scumtells I've ever seen.

Huh? Scumtell? Wha? This part makes no sense to me.

And yes, as scum, I do try to act in the best interest of the town. How else can you fool a town? If I acted in the best interest of the scum, I'd be found out fairly easily. As a general rule, if I look extremely protown to everyone, I'm probably scum. The inverse is also true, where if several people are really suspicious of me, I'm probably town. I don't know why it works that way, it just does.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Awesome, cya soon!

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM is more likely scum than Flare, imo.

My suspicion list of those three would probably be Flare, BooKitty, then Yamahako, but BM/Zorg is above them all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Man, it's like pulling teeth to get people to put BM as their #1 suspect. I must've hit the jackpot, here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Simenon, your list has a suspiciously large number of suspicious people...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do I still have four votes?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Neither. It's suspicious that there are a lot of suspicious people who you are unwilling to wagon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Neither. It's suspicious that there are a lot of suspicious people who you are unwilling to wagon.

Okay. Why?

Because you've just made a statement on who you are willing to wagon and who you won't. By making a blanket statement like this, you don't have to explain *why* you have people are certain halves of the list. Since there are a lot of rather suspicious people on your "won't wagon" list, it's rather suspect that you were trying to make an excuse to not vote them without actually giving a real reason for it. This way, even if they get lynched somehow, you can point back and say "but I told you all I wasn't going to vote them, so of course I didn't vote them!"

Smells like BS to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Basing your vote on people's avatars is a horrible idea, even if it's just a joke (that's how I interpreted it, at least).

[Mastermind of Sin]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 271#773271

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 762#778762

That's some of the problems I had with him off the top of my head.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Eh, many a true word is oft said in jest. Considering that some people recognise people by their avatars, it could be that there's some kind of subconscious influence going on there. It's just a little bit harder to imagine BooKitty as murderous scum when you've staring into Hello Kitty's deep, soulful eyes. I can't vote for the cute kitty... @_@

My kitty is cuter.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, Bookitty makes a decent point about the TS reactions to Zorg and Flare. Flare is definitely my second suspect at this point, so I could probably be persuaded to vote him if his responses aren't good enough. This is of course, assuming that BM *does* do something worthwhile. He hasn't done it so far.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm waiting for Flare's response (or at least until Patrick has time to prod him and/or replace him) before I change my vote, still.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Elmo's post is why I'm willing to wait. For now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod, can we get an update on the Flare situation?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shortly can't come soon enough. My patience is wearing thin.

[Mastermind of Sin]

tick tock...

[Mastermind of Sin]

^seconded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Can we get a prod on Yamahako? His last post was a week ago:

When under scrutiny, I have not lurked. Thus my condemnation of Flare's "defense" is not hypocrisy.

Lurking as a

defense tactic

will continue to work until players stop letting it.

I have made no attempt to attack lurkers this game, and have made no specific defense about my own lack of posting.

I do have a problem with people who disappear when they are under attack, and support the idea of not letting such a thing slide.

You're under scrutiny right now, so why aren't you posting? You have the most votes of anyone in the game, so where is your high horse now?

[Mastermind of Sin]

having trouble typing 's name? =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

What? When did I make a BS attack on you? This is your first post since I attacked you, and that's hardly a defense.

Bullshit.

Unvote, Vote: Yamahako

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yay skruffs!

[Mastermind of Sin]

<3

Mod edit: <3

[Mastermind of Sin]

Flare is going to be replaced. You have more votes than he does, but you're ignoring them and not defending yourself. That makes you look at least as bad as Flare, if not worse, since you're posting and STILL not defending yourself.

MOS, are you really defending Zoneace all game, like lemming implies? If so, why? From what I have heard about Zoneace, there's nothing there that really merits defending.

No. I defended ZONEACE on Day 1 because he was being wagoned for acting like he always does. I do not support lynching him on Day 1 because he's being consistent with his protown play. It's no longer Day 1, so I'm sure that anyone who wants to lynch ZONEACE would provide a proper case instead of the bullshit we dealt with Day 1, so I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If you think a player is scummy say why and vote them. This is the way the game is played. It's the manner of that attack that allows scum to be seen.

Interesting how Yamahako backpedaled when he was called out for not providing a case with his vote. Hiding behind someone else's reasoning is not a "manner of attack". It's a copout that lets scum place votes without having to explain where they are coming from.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Partly because I've already been accused of most of the things BM said about me (and responded to them), partly because I'm lazy, and partly because this case really reeks of classic BM-logic as opposed to being right, but I'm not going to make a massive response post. I feel it would be a waste of my time, your time, and space in the thread. When I've seen BM be right about someone being scum, it's usually when he has little to no case and can't really defend it. His bad cases are the ones where he grasps at air and pulls in every little thing he can to make a massive case against someone.

I do have one comment though, because it still bugs me. Battle Mage, you keep referencing Match of Champions (not just in this game, either) and my actions towards ZONEACE as if they imply a relationship. My alignment in MoC had nothing to do with how I treated ZONEACE, and you know it. It's public knowledge that I was only defending him out of policy based on the content of the case against him, not because of my alignment. Heck, I even admitted to my replacement that the smart move for scum was to lynch ZONEACE instead of defending him like I had done. We won that game, but my defense of ZONEACE brought me under a lot of fire because people didn't pay attention to the fact that I do it every time he gets attacked like that. So let me repeat this for you one more time, very slowly so you can understand it.

My defense of ZONEACE early in a game has no, zero, zippo, absolutely nothing, a complete lack of, a void of, nyet, nada... bearing on my alignment in

any

game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Battle Mage, the fact that my treatment of ZONEACE is exactly the same is BECAUSE I'm being consistent regardless of alignment! That's the whole fucking point, dude.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS-that may be how you see it, but i'm thinking from Zoneace's point of view here. You've pulled the wool over his eyes before, and i'm damn sure that if i was in his shoes, i'd be very wary about allowing you to do the same again.

BM

Are you serious? How could I be pulling the wool over his eyes when I have publicly admitted that my alignment cannot be determined from my actions regarding the defense of ZONEACE? It's a null tell, not a town tell. There is no reason to trust me

because

of my defense of ZONEACE, but there is no reason to condemn me, either. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. If they choose to treat the ZONEACE actions as a town tell, that's their own fault for being stupid. Thinking I'm town as a result of the ZONEACE defense is just as stupid as thinking I'm scum for it. Null tells cannot be used to fool someone, Battle Mage.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I find it rather questionable that MoS would leave himself open to this, actually.

What do you mean by this sentence?

Oh, and I'm not voting BM right now, but I was voting him before I voted Yamahako, and the only thing keeping me from switching back is the fact that Yamahako is currently being a complete hypocrit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Battle Mage

FoS: Setael

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol, BM actually made a funny!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hey BM, have you finished reading the thread?

I think it's pretty obvobv that if I was scum and KNEW Yama was going to come up town, I would not have hammered since the only outcome would've been casting suspicion on myself. Cry WIFOM all you want, I'm not that stupid. I hammered because Yama was scummy and there was no way to reverse that wagon and still end the day this century.

I should've stuck to my guns on BM yesterday, even if there was no way to turn an entire town.

vote: Battle Mage

Methinks he doth protest too much.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So your validation for hammering Yamahako was that you were satisfied with being wrong about his alignment?

Unvote, Vote: Setael

[Mastermind of Sin]

So your validation for hammering Yamahako was that you were satisfied with being wrong about his alignment?

this makes no sense. You were thinking about placing a vote on him, with shite reasoning, then you read his play, discovered that he wasnt as scummy as you originally thought, and yet decided to throw the hammer down, based on your DECREASED suspicion of him?

You and MoS both seem to have misunderstood. I thought he was town when I initially replaced in and caught up on the game and therefore was not planning on voting for him at all. In another game I'm in I refused to join 2 wagons because I thought they were town and they BOTH turned out to be scum. Realizing Yama could be the 3rd time this is happening to me in like 2 weeks, I decided to reread him. The reread (as I stated when I hammered) made me realize he'd actually been very scummy and all those on the wagon were probably right instead of me. So, realizing I had probably been wrong about him (in thinking he was town) I hammered.

So because you were wrong a few times, you suddenly doubted your judgement and a reread miraculously changed your opinion of him? What did you see that you hadn't seen before? What had you thought you'd seen that made him protown in your initial read?

Skruffs, I'm assuming that you want to observe for a while before sharing the results of your action last night. Based on that assumption, I can conclude that your vote on BooKitty is not necessarily an indication of an investigation on her. Therefore, can you please explain why you are voting her? As the most confirmed person in this game, we need you to tell us your reasoning behind your suspicions. We can't just blindly trust that you are right and agree with everything you say, but we at least know that what you say is coming from a protown person.

[Mastermind of Sin]

vote : bookitty

Vote Boo

. yay cop (if this isn't cop alluding to a guilty, someone needs to inform me ;[))

Try reading the post

right above yours...

[Mastermind of Sin]

If you think me delaying/stalling is suspicious, then you are not paying attention to what happened yesterday and what I (think) I said would happen last night.

Does this statement apply to me? I don't think it's suspicious at all, but I don't know if I somehow gave off that impression.

Keep the scum guessing. It's good for them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Skruffs, you do realize that we already know you were getting roleblocked, right?

I believe I was roleblocked. My flavor was basically "investigation failed" and no other flavor.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Considering we know Erg0's town, I dislike what came from BM's direction yesterday even more. You seemed to be attacking Erg0 and then trying to spin things he said in defence; I think I'm going to

vote

:

Battle Mage

and see what falls out, for now.

While I agree that Battle Mage is pretty scummy (currently #2 on my list), this post of yours caught my attention. There are a lot of reasons to find BM scummy, but most of them are based on his predecessor's actions. I'm inclined to believe that BM's attacks on Erg0, ZONEACE, and myself are a

null tell

, because that's BM being himself. Most of his arguments are spun in a way that don't make a lot of logical sense, so it's not an indication of him being scum. So, while I alway appreciate more votes for BM in this game, your reasoning for finally voting him is bad, in my opinion.

==================================

Setael does make a convincing case against BooKitty, and considering that she was already near the top of my suspicion list, that's enough to make me

Unvote, Vote: BooKitty

. Setael looks a little better in light of this argument, if she's right.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ouch, that sucks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Battle Mage, are you even paying attention? When I voted Setael, there were only 2 votes on her. After I unvoted, there were only 3 votes on her. Her wagon has never been more than 3 people besides myself, so how has the Setael wagon "shrunk"?

It sounds more like you were keeping track of how changing your votes would look on yourself and saw the tide turning against BooKitty. You saw me unvoted Setael, who you were also voting, and you thought that it would look opportunistic for you to drop the Setael vote after other people had just done it. Therefore, you specifically supported the BooKitty wagon without dropping the Setael suspicion so that you could have the best of both worlds. And since you thought that switching off the Setael wagon would look bad on you, you figured you could pin the same charge on me, since I'd already done it. That's what it looks like to me, BM.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't know if I'm in any other finished games with ZONEACE where he's been attacked heavily. I'll check sometime if I have time. Maybe ZONEACE knows. *shrug* I don't really keep track of that stuff, cuz I know I'll do it in every game regardless.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think MoC is the only since I've been back MoS.

Yea could be. *shrug*

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's a good vote count. My top 3 suspects are all being voted.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Considering that I've been suspicious of both you and Setael since before today, and there was a very good case against BooKitty posted today, which you yourself admitted, I'm really curious to see what you're trying to imply here. If your point is that I am, in fact, suspicious of scummy people, then it's probably not an coincidence.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Off the top of my head, your different treatment of suspects.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, using your logic, you should've either voted for me or dropped the other suspects as you did with me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There is a distinct difference between someone who responds to your questions and addresses the points therein, and someone who does not. Would you not agree?

I did not feel there was much more to be gained by questioning you further. Additionally, I expressed why I felt you were not as suspicious as the other two (Battle Mage and Setael, now) and why my vote was going to Flare.

Can you quote the posts where you did this?

You, on the other hand, slipped onto the wagon on me and only gave your reasons when pressed, and only after repeated questioning. Additionally, your answers seem sort of counterintuitive. (Why aren't you voting for me? Sort of an odd question, really.)

Is it really an odd question? It's not like I said I agreed with your reasoning. I said that

based

on your reasoning, you should either have voted me or dropped suspicion against the others. I did not say that I felt you should be voting me. I obviously feel that no one should be voting me, since I am protown. However, that's not what the point of my post is, although you seem to be trying to twist what I said to imply that I was asking you to vote me.

Setael at least made a case, albeit one I don't agree with. You, on the other hand, just adopted the argument she made, and trying to get reasons from you for this is like pulling teeth. It's as if you're just slipping onto a wagon in order to try to get a lynch unnoticed. But I will point out your presence on that wagon, and your wholesale adopting of someone else's argument without ever really examining it for yourself, so the unnoticed part isn't going to work.

My responses have been part laziness, part time crunch. As you'll notice if you look in several of my other current games, I'm giving similar responses to people. Last week was finals, and this week I'm just trying to keep up with my games even if I don't always make big posts in them. Anyway, if I was going to just slip onto your wagon without attracting notice, I wouldn't be accusing people of being scum with you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I believe that is a Zing.

Vote : Mastermind of Sin

You should know better, Skruffs. Please don't be lazy like me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Bookitty, does your latest suspicion of MoS mean you now disbelieve all of this? Does the fact that he thinks I made a decent case on you outweigh all these reasons you gave for thinking he's town?

I'm asking him questions. And, if you were really convinced I was scum, Setael, then why would you be making the assumption that I believe or disbelieve ANYTHING I'm saying? Your arguments in my direction all indicate that you think I'm town, and that I might "suspect" MoS of being scum, something SCUM would not do, or need to do.

So you're revealing that you don't even believe your own case, in presenting it.

WHOA. Stop the presses! Did you really just try and misrepresent what Setael is saying THAT badly? BooKitty, no protown person should ever act as if a person has NO chance of being town, unless (and not always even then) they have some sort of power role evidence that completely condemns them. If Setael believed there was no chance you were town, she would not even respond to what you say, because there's no point in taking you seriously. However, because there is always the possibility that you are town, we should continuing discussing points with you and treating it as a possibility. By keeping the lines of communication open, it gives you a chance to show that you are protown, and it allows us to do my evidence-gathering to see if we really think you are scum. Your statement above shows a base assumption that Setael should not believe there is even a

chance

of you being protown, and you're trying to twist that around to make it look like Setael "slipped up" and knows you're not scum.

Mastermind of Sin voted for Booboodafool for voting based on someone else's argument. It's called a Person C tell, and it's apparently the subject of some controversy, but Mastermind of Sin didn't seem to have any real ambivalence about it.

Also

Vote yamahako

. Zeppos post #562 was the exact same thing i was thinking.

Unvote, Vote: booboodafool

Person C arguments are among the most accurate, in my opinion. Good catch, The Fonz

Setael does make a convincing case against BooKitty, and considering that she was already near the top of my suspicion list, that's enough to make me

Unvote, Vote: BooKitty

. Setael looks a little better in light of this argument, if she's right.

So, it's among the most accurate, and in the same game, he commits it?

I'm just wondering, since you don't feel you need a reread, whether you were aware of this, Setael?

You do realize there is a very large time difference between those two posts, right? I have since then learned through experience that Person C tells are actually kinda crappy, since they happen all the time. I don't think I've ever actually used the Person C tell since my vote on Booboodafool, which happened, what, day 1?

What is the advantage to scum in providing evidence on behalf of someone YOU, Setael, are arguing is town?

Are you really trying to argue that there is no advantage in scum defending someone they know isn't mafia? Have you ever heard of buddying up? I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, but through laziness on my part or just because of the way you presented it, I actually felt better about your alignment after you concluded I was town, since I knew that to be the correct conclusion. Even experienced players like myself are susceptible to scum buddying up to them, unfortunately.

We have evidence. Your fatalistic attitude seems to indicate that you view Mafia as a guessing game, and your playstyle here is certainly bearing it out. Mafia is NOT a guessing game. It is a game of gauging reactions, of finding inconsistencies (like MoS decrying the Person C tell when he committed it himself, like you saying that I cleared MoS when you've done that more blatantly), and I think that we've derived a lot of information from this wagon. You don't seem worried about a mislynch, despite your comments, because you're not even curious enough to do a reread. Your actions betray your lack of worry.

We have evidence? That doesn't mean we don't need more evidence. The day I'll say we have enough information as a town is the day that the mod announces guaranteed sane cop results on every player in the game, on Day 1.

You wanted me to present my own reasons for you to be scum? Well your wish just came true.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I did not feel there was much more to be gained by questioning you further. Additionally, I expressed why I felt you were not as suspicious as the other two (Battle Mage and Setael, now) and why my vote was going to Flare.

Can you quote the posts where you did this?

The posts where we argued back and forth are too numerous to quote. I doubt you've forgotten them. The post where I changed my mind about you being my main suspect is quoted below:

Believe it or not, I actually do play in other games than this one. I remember that we argued. That's about the extent of what I remember. That's why I asked you to quote it.

Some interactions between ToasterStrudel and others:

She votes MoS. This could be distancing, but Flare and Zorg jump on this wagon pretty quickly. When Erg0 expresses some discomfort with the wagon, TS states "It's never a bad long-term strategy, especially in a big game, to keep some heat on MoS. If he's scum, you hope that he might slip up. I don't know if that's what Flare and Zorg have in mind, but I sure wouldn't like MoS to get complacent."

This just doesn't seem like scum distancing to me.

unvote

Then, when Ether notes that "You voted MoS with the implications that Flare was town", TS disavows this, stating, "Independently of my observations on MoS, Flare's contributions seem to lean on the side of disruption, rather than contribution, so I would definitely add him to the scummy column."

This DOES look like scum distancing to me.

TS decides to go along with JDodge's suspicions of White (townie), saying "Upon further consideration, I am going to trust JDodge, and my own guts, on this one." I don't see scum saying this about other scum, it's too clear a linkage.

When White attacks Yamahoko for some valid reasons, TS defends Yama, saying "Loaded question noted. Here's another: 'Yama, when did you stop beating puppies?'"

Again, possibly too clear a linkage for scum to make to other scum.

Some weird interplay in which TS doesn't really defend Ether, nor attack her, but just uses her in some confusing example of buddying up to lurkers. (White really wasn't helping himself here, and I have no idea what TS means about Ether in these posts.)

WIFOM: TS accuses White of buddying up with MoS... trying to get back to her original lynch target of MoS, or trying to clear MoS when White comes up town? I'm leaning toward the first, based on tone.

Does some fishing and comes up with the idea that White is a mason, due to Simenon's opposition to his lynch. Loudly hints at her discovery.

Chummily points out to MoS that "I really, really don't see what's so special about Zorg. Whatever scent of scum he gives off, I must be immune to it. I read all the posts, and I just don't get it." Too clear a defense for scum to make of other scum, once again, as I see it.

Really liking my unvote on MoS at the moment. TS seems fixated on him, not something I see scum doing to other scum.

MoS, ZONEACE, Flameaxe, JDodge vote for TS and force a claim. A wagon forms on Zorg nearly instantly. TS votes White, despite the Zorg wagon.

I'm thinking at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum. I'm not really sure which, but Toaster Strudel's early comment painting Flare as scum, while never pursuing him in any meaningful manner, seems like a better case for his lynch than Zorg's. TS linked herself rather openly to Zorg, not a move I think smart scum would make.

And rereading Flare's posts, which are alternating attacks and withdrawals of those attacks (at least in my view), I don't see anything to make me reconsider this idea.

I think your reasoning in that post regarding Flare was just a copy of what you said about me, but you went into less detail. You basis of your case against Flare was that TS painted him as scummy but did not

really

push for his lynch. With me, you pointed out that TS was voting me to keep me from getting "complacent". You showed that TS was perhaps not actually trying to push me to lynch, but just trying to keep some of the town's focus on me. I'd argue that TS was doing the same with Flare, instead of scum distancing from him. So the conclusion is not

necessarily

that you should have voted me. As I said before, it's just that you should have come to the same results for the both of us. Looking back, I don't think you should have voted either of us at that point, because I think you showed that TS wasn't distancing. She didn't want to be responsible for pushing a mislynch, but Flare and I were both good focal points for her to direct the town's attention to whenever she needed a distraction, perhaps.

Is it really an odd question? It's not like I said I agreed with your reasoning. I said that

based

on your reasoning, you should either have voted me or dropped suspicion against the others. I did not say that I felt you should be voting me. I obviously feel that no one should be voting me, since I am protown. However, that's not what the point of my post is, although you seem to be trying to twist what I said to imply that I was asking you to vote me.

You weren't agreeing with me. You were agreeing with Setael's argument, the direct implication of which was that I should have found you more suspicious than Flare and maintained my vote on you at that time. That was the logical conclusion, and your response seemed very odd in that context. It seemed that you hadn't understood that this was the end result of following her logic.

I very much understood what I was implying. And I have explained why there's nothing wrong with it. Why should I be afraid to point out that someone's position should have them voting me? If they are not voting me, clearly there is a discrepancy and they are probably scum. It does not matter if I or someone else had been the subject of your posts. My reaction would be the same. Just because it is me does not mean I'm going to ignore the discrepancy.

My responses have been part laziness, part time crunch. As you'll notice if you look in several of my other current games, I'm giving similar responses to people. Last week was finals, and this week I'm just trying to keep up with my games even if I don't always make big posts in them. Anyway, if I was going to just slip onto your wagon without attracting notice, I wouldn't be accusing people of being scum with you.

My vote remains on Setael. Her recent posts have contained numerous contradictions, and she seems determined to defend you, which seems more than a little odd. She's tunnelling solely on me, and she's tripping herself up more and more with every post she makes, in my view.

Erm, how does that have to do with anything I said?

WHOA. Stop the presses! Did you really just try and misrepresent what Setael is saying THAT badly? BooKitty, no protown person should ever act as if a person has NO chance of being town, unless (and not always even then) they have some sort of power role evidence that completely condemns them. If Setael believed there was no chance you were town, she would not even respond to what you say, because there's no point in taking you seriously. However, because there is always the possibility that you are town, we should continuing discussing points with you and treating it as a possibility. By keeping the lines of communication open, it gives you a chance to show that you are protown, and it allows us to do my evidence-gathering to see if we really think you are scum. Your statement above shows a base assumption that Setael should not believe there is even a

chance

of you being protown, and you're trying to twist that around to make it look like Setael "slipped up" and knows you're not scum.

Setael has tunnelled on me in recent posts to the extent that some of her posts read as if she's just repeating, over and over, that I'm scum. She hasn't seemed unsure. Do you argue that she has?

I'm arguing that Setael's apparent "discrepancy" that "proves" she knows you aren't actually scum is actually just a sign that she's open to the

possibility

. Setael obviously

believes

you are scum, but she is not so close-minded as to completely ignore other possibilities.

You do realize there is a very large time difference between those two posts, right? I have since then learned through experience that Person C tells are actually kinda crappy, since they happen all the time. I don't think I've ever actually used the Person C tell since my vote on Booboodafool, which happened, what, day 1?

I asked Setael for a reread. She felt she had no need for one, despite the fact that a reread would have revealed this contradiction in your play. As I said, I tend to watch who jumps on wagons I am on as town, and how they do it, because that's one way to catch scum. Setael doesn't seem interested in that at all. This also adds to the perception of certainty that she is presenting.

This is the second time I have made a post in response to an accusation you made about my own actions, where you have responded with some sort of argument about your discussion with Setael...why are you trying to focus this conversation on what Setael did wrong and completely ignore the fact that I just defended myself against your original accusation?

Are you really trying to argue that there is no advantage in scum defending someone they know isn't mafia? Have you ever heard of buddying up? I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, but through laziness on my part or just because of the way you presented it, I actually felt better about your alignment after you concluded I was town, since I knew that to be the correct conclusion. Even experienced players like myself are susceptible to scum buddying up to them, unfortunately.

Do you think it's likely that someone would argue as fiercely and persistently as you and I did, and then expect "buddying up" to work? That seems pretty counterintuitive to me.

How so? If someone has made intense arguments against you and finally comes to what I believed to be the conclusion that you are protown, would you not feel that perhaps they had been sincere in their efforts and just finally realized the truth? I certainly thought at the time that your effort in arguing with me was a point in your favor once you unvoted. I didn't occur to me that it was a well-played buddying. So yes, when you think about it, it's not counterintuitive to expect it to work.

We have evidence? That doesn't mean we don't need more evidence. The day I'll say we have enough information as a town is the day that the mod announces guaranteed sane cop results on every player in the game, on Day 1.

I think we've derived as much evidence as can be gained from my wagon, and if you read the statements in context, you'll understand that I was saying that I felt that regardless of whether Setael manages to get me lynched or not, the evidence is there. She's now decided that the discussion is done, so apparently she believes either she'll only damage her case more by making further contradictions, or that town has enough information to make a decision on this wagon now.

The town may have enough evidence to decide this wagon, yes. But you said that the town had enough evidence by now to

win

. That's a completely different implication, and now you're backtracking to cover it up.

Also, my kitty is still cuter.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's not an appeal to emotion.

Read it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

[Mastermind of Sin]

8) Mastermind of Sin -- Voted Zeppo, Did not vote Toaster Strudel (voted battle mage), Voted Yamahako

[/quote]

I voted Battle Mage

before

the cops had claimed their results, and the day ended before I had the chance to check the thread again, so I had no chance to vote Toaster Strudel. I was not going to vote her until all the evidence was on the table. You do realize this, right?

TS was blatantly masonfishing at the end of Day 1, and I've wavered on the implications of this throughout the game.

If there is a scum mason, why would TS have to fish for the masons? Although it may be possible that their is an SK-mason, which would explain TS fishing for the mason identities.

I have a lot more to comment on and catch up in this thread, but I just got back from holidays so I'll come back to this thread later.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BooKitty, if the mafia have one of their members in the mason group, can't they just ask that person who the masons are at night? There would be no need to fish...

[Mastermind of Sin]

...or that the mason traitor is not affiliated with the mafia.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Alright, thanks.

Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage

IGMEOY: BooKitty, Simenon

I don't like either of them atm, but we're not lynching masons, so back to BM-scum it is for me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote
Vote Mastermind of Sin

The votes on Battle Mage seem suspiciously like "kore looks better in comparison", and I have always thought mos' vote on bm would have stopped if it wasn't bm. Just because kore has fancy linky posties does not mean her arguments are particularly compelling.

And I can't say I'm fond of Mos' switch from TS to Battle mage.

A more detailed post later, since I don't think this wagon will drum itself up.

Simenon, you're not making any sense here. I was voting this role well before BM replaced into the game. The bulk of my suspicion was based on actions made by

Zorg

,

NOT

BM. He just hasn't done anything to alleviate those suspicions so far. The hole was already dug, BM's just widening it to give himself more room.

What switch from TS to BM? WTF are you talking about?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good question, BooKitty.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, claim please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hammer him, please. Let's rid ourselves of a scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because Zorg/BM have been incredibly scummy all game, but every time we get close to lynching him, we get sdistracted by a "better" target that turns out to be a mislynch. I'm tired of him getting away with that, and I think it's further evidence that he is scum. I've made several posts in the past on both Zorg and BM's actions, detailing why they are scum. I'm not inclined to repeat them, sorry.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think BM just gave up. Had he been trying, I would agree with SirT. BM's reaction to the claim doesn't reflect scum trying to survive. It seems more like he was resigned to his fate at that point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Niv, have you read the arguments for why we aren't lynching the masons today?

[Mastermind of Sin]

hammer already

[Mastermind of Sin]

what he said.

[Mastermind of Sin]

First off, let me say a big "I told you so" to all those people who wouldn't vote Zorg/BM earlier, especially Day 1. That wagon never got enough support.

Taking out the four masons (unless there's a fifth claimed and I missed them):

2) Simenon - mason
6) Ether (replacing Honary Hitchhiker) - mason
18) Niv - mason
21) Bookitty (replacing booboodafool, replacing Celtic18) - mason

Leaves me with:

1) Korejora (replacing Aimee)
5) JDodge (replacing ckillor)
7) Sir Tornado
11) ZONEACE
15) Setael II (replacing Flare)
17) Elmo (replacing Beastly)

Of which I'd say 1-2 are mafia and 1 is SK/vig if we have a mafia-mason. If we have an SK-mason, I'd say probably 2-3 of those 6 are mafia.

Aimee/Korejora: Was suspicious of Zorg early in the game, and I don't think the Korejora/BM argument was staged. I don't see BM getting into huge attacks and arguments with his scumbuddy. Conclusion: probably protown, or at least not mafia.

ckillor/JDodge: Has almost no contribution throughout the entire game. JDodge has 53 posts, and almost none of them contain original reasoning, or any reasoning at all. Conclusion: Leaning scummy, needs to actually participate. Lurking in itself is not necessarily a scumtell, but this seems more like active lurking.

Sir Tornado: I don't really see much that stuck out to me on a reread, and he's pretty active. The only thing that I noticed is that he's been discouraging any theory that involves a scum mason that can communicate with the mafia, but that's not really scummy since we don't know how it's set up. He does have some reasoning behind it, so it'd only be interesting if we had a way of finding out how the game is set up. Conclusion: protown

ZONEACE: He's playing mostly as himself, but that doesn't clear him as town, it's just not evidence of him being scum. In fact, skimming his posts, I find him lacking in contribution much like JDodge. He's done a lot of voting and attacking of people, but he hasn't really presented cases for his suspicions. Conclusion: Leaning scummy

Setael II/Flare: Flare was pretty scummy, but Setael redeemed the role somewhat when he replaced. I've liked a lot of his logic so far, so he's in the middle atm. Conclusion: Neutral

Elmo/Beastly: Beastly seemed pretty logical, and I like Elmo's posts so far, but Elmo needs to be more active. He only has 7 posts since replacing 2 months ago. Conclusion: Neutral leaning protown.

My suspicion list (scummiest first):

JDodge
ZONEACE
Setael II
Korejora
Elmo
Sir Tornado

Vote: JDodge

[Mastermind of Sin]

I find it interesting that MoS lists Sir T as the most townie player in the game.

MoS, what did you think of Sir T's posts before BM was lynched, as well as BM's last minute vote for Sir T?

Also, your description of JDodge sounds a lot like how he always plays. I'm guessing you've played with him before, so the fact that he lurks and doesn't contribute much shouldn't automatically be a scum tell on him I would think. Any other reasons he is your #1 scum candidate?

I dismissed BM's actions as him trying to flail before he died and cast suspicion on Sir T. Once it was obvious he would be lynched, he was just trying to cause confusion for the town.

JDodge is usually more articulate than this, imo. I've seen games where he posted minimally but was still

useful

. JDodge has been completely useless this game, staying out of the limelight as much as possible. His play is much more useful to scum than town, so I think he's scum.

Also, MoS, after spending 4 days convincing everyone ZONEACE's play is not scummy, how do you come to conclusion that he is scum on day 5?

That's bullshit, Sir T. I defended ZONEACE on Day 1. I have pretty much ignored him since then, except to point out why I defended him Day 1 when Battle Mage attacked me for it. With my main suspect of the game finally lynched, I took this opportunity to reevaluate *everyone*, including ZONEACE. Just because I didn't want him lynched for being himself doesn't mean I don't think it's possible for him to be scum. It's one thing for him to act like himself. It's another thing for him to spend 4 game days contributing next to nothing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

im more struck by how it seems to have appeared out of no where.

All of my suspicions have appeared out of nowhere, because I did a full reread of everyone's posts and came up with a read on them. In past days, I haven't had time to reread to look at the big picture, and so only the recent events stick in my mind unless they were major. I wanted to get a better feel for the game on the whole, so I went back and looked at everyone's posts throughout the game to be able to organize my thoughts.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is everyone voting Sir T?

Notice: I will be leaving Mafiascum in the near future. As a result, I will be cutting back on games where possible. I'm going to try not to be replaced if I can, but this is an advance notice that my activity WILL decrease.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think Mastermind of Sin might be bussing ZONEACE.

Throughout the game, whenever anyone voted or even questioned ZONEACE, he had an immediate and angry response. Mastermind of Sin defended him early, and more than just on Day One, because when I replaced into the game he also defended him very strongly to me, and I did not replace until Day Two.

I notice a significant difference between ZONEACE's responses to anyone else accusing or voting him, and his response to Mastermind of Sin. Since they both argued that they didn't really know each other out of game, I don't think it's because they are personal friends, as I thought originally regarding MoS's persistent and repeated defences of ZONEACE's play. So I don't see a good reason for the muted nature of ZONEACE's response to MoS, given his previous responses to similar acts by others.

I'm putting my vote on ZONEACE, but I'm willing to vote either MoS or ZONEACE, because I think they're scumbuddies.

vote ZONEACE

Additionally, I agree that we shouldn't lynch a mason today, but I strongly feel all of us should be questioned and looked at carefully, and not given a free pass. I think this will be very helpful later in the game.

You're wrong, Bookitty. Unless I'm completely misremembering, I wasn't defending ZONEACE on Day 2. I was defending

my Day 1 actions

regarding ZONEACE, which you attacked me about. The

only

point of my defense of ZONEACE was to keep him from being lynched purely based on people hating his attitude. Hating his attitude does not make him scum, and I will

never

support a serious wagon against someone just because people don't like their playstyle. I have presented a reason why I think ZONEACE might be scum, but it has nothing to do with the fact that he reacts aggressively to bullshit attacks against him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're wrong, Bookitty. Unless I'm completely misremembering, I wasn't defending ZONEACE on Day 2. I was defending

my Day 1 actions

regarding ZONEACE, which you attacked me about.

You're forgetting ZONEACE directing the doc and tracker, and your defense of him in that regard, which was also along the same vein. That was original material well after Day One ended.

I still don't see the shift in his playstyle from Day 1 til now. Can you explain what you see as significantly different or worse now?

His playstyle hasn't changed. Except for his reaction to me, which I do agree is different than he's reacted to everyone else, he's been his same cranky self the entire game. Which is why I defended him on Day 1. I'm not voting him because he stopped being cranky. I'm voting him because, in retrospect, I can see a pattern throughout several days of play where ZONEACE did *not* contribute much to the discussion. Since he has made a pattern out of not being helpful, I find him scummy for it. His actions Day 1 were not a pattern, especially since he had to spend much of it defending himself against people voting him for being cranky and aggressive, something I don't find a scumtell for him.

I was testing reactions on ZONEACE, and his response to MoS really does seem very muted in comparison to his reactions to everyone else, including me.

Are you sure that's not a case of OMGU rock? I don't know that I'd say MoS is scum just because of what ZONEACE thinks of him, and to me MoS has the same sort of lack of meticulousness you're towning Sim for.

I'm not sure of anything at all in regards to MoS/ZONEACE. I'm looking as well as I can, but I can't make sense of MoS suddenly turning on ZONEACE. I voted ZONEACE because I thought his response to MoS was strange, and MoS voted him for reasons that seemed rather weak to me.

What's your take on ZONEACE, Korejora?

I'm not voting ZONEACE at all. Where did you get that from? If you think my reasons are weak, that's even more reason for me NOT to be voting him, wouldn't you think? I'm voting JDodge, because I have a better case against him than ZONEACE.

What's the case against JDodge, exactly?

I see him playing pretty much the way I always see him play as town. I'm not getting the scumvibe that apparently other people are, but I haven't played with him as scum so far as I know.

He's cranky, but he's ALWAYS cranky. To me that's not a scumtell from him.

So you're allowed to defend JDodge on

Day 5

for always being cranky, but I'm not allowed to defend ZONEACE on

Day 1

for always being cranky? That's bullshit, Bookitty.

And the case against JDodge is not for him being cranky. At least, that's not my case. Hell, I don't even know where you got cranky from. I wouldn't classify JDodge as cranky in this game. I'm voting him for being repeatedly unhelpful to the game and flying under the radar through active lurking. That has nothing to do with crankiness.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BooKitty, you don't think it's a good idea to put attention on someone who's been flying under the radar so well that they haven't been largely ignored through 4 days? I'm not sure what you're advocating here. Should we continue to ignore people who are not contributing?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS: I think you're somewhat missing my point.

If I defended JDodge Day One, saying, "He always plays like this," and nothing changed throughout the course of the game (which is generally true of people with unhelpful playstyles, as I've noticed, though I have no meta of my own on ZONEACE), and then suddenly turned attention on him Day Five, and found him suspicious for playing basically the same way at that point... you would ask me the same questions I'm asking you. And you'd be right to.

I would question you

if

you were voting JDodge for the same reasons that you had originally defended him for. But if you defended JDodge for one reason on Day 1 and then had a different reason to find him scummy on Day 5, why would I have reason to find that odd?

Looking at the vote count on JDodge is interesting, because he has three votes on him (six needed to lynch) and one is you, one is Simenon, and one is Ether. JDodge still isn't contributing, really, and my vote is sitting on ZONEACE, who arguably was LESS contributory but who apparently isn't worth voting for anyone except me, even though the arguments against both are the same. JDodge is voting Setael, ZONEACE is voting Korejora.

ZONEACE was "less contributory" than JDodge? That's a completely laughable assertion, BooKitty. How could you

possibly

believe there is even the

tiniest

bit of truth to that statement?

My argument, in essence, is this. If JDodge and ZONEACE are both lynchworthy for noncontribution and unhelpful playstyle, what exactly makes JDodge far more lynchworthy than ZONEACE? Why wasn't Elmo mentioned, when Elmo has posted FAR less than either?

I guess if these are the two options given, I'd prefer JDodge's lynch over ZONEACE's due to his posting far less than ZONEACE, but I don't understand overlooking Elmo entirely when he's lurking and far more unhelpful than either, if we're going after lurkers/noncontributors now. I was asking if there was something else scummy about JDodge that justified ignoring Elmo for basically the same offenses.

I hope that's more clear.

You're acting like people didn't present their own analysis of Elmo already, BooKitty. Elmo replaced a pretty protown-looking player who had good contributions. On top of that, even though Elmo has posted only a few times, his contribution totals close to that of ZONEACE and JDodge, even though they have been here then entire game and have a hell of a lot more posts. Elmo is in no way comparable to ZONEACE and JDodge in terms of scumminess. He needs to be prodded, that's all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS: Do you feel ZONEACE's play would give him an advantage as scum? What do you think is the best way to distinguish between when he's town and when he's scum?

I think even ZONEACE will make an effort to help the town when he's protown, despite his personal attitudes. That means that his level of contribution compared to his number of posts is, to me, indicative of his alignment.

Beastly posted 24 times. Elmo has posted ten times. That's a total of 34 posts.

JDodge has posted 61 times.

ZONEACE has posted 225 times.

Now of the three, yes, obviously ZONEACE is the most active player. But I don't notice a difference in the quality of his posts Day One to Day Five, for him to be number two on your list. You yourself stated:

His playstyle hasn't changed. Except for his reaction to me, which I do agree is different than he's reacted to everyone else, he's been his same cranky self the entire game.

Which is why I defended him on Day 1. I'm not voting him because he stopped being cranky. I'm voting him because, in retrospect, I can see a pattern throughout several days of play where ZONEACE did *not* contribute much to the discussion. Since he has made a pattern out of not being helpful, I find him scummy for it. His actions Day 1 were not a pattern, especially since he had to spend much of it defending himself against people voting him for being cranky and aggressive, something I don't find a scumtell for him.

(bolding mine)

But later you say:

I would question you if you were voting JDodge for the same reasons that you had originally defended him for. But if you defended JDodge for one reason on Day 1 and

then had a different reason to find him scummy on Day 5, why would I have reason to find that odd?

(again, bolding mine)

I'm asking, what exactly is that different reason? Is it the continuation of his behaviour far longer than you thought was reasonable?

You're quoting those two posts as if you think they contradict each other, BooKitty. They in fact support each other. I am not attacking ZONEACE for being an aggressive, cranky player. That is what I defended him against D1. He should not be lynched just based on attitude, when it's obviously not a tell. I'm suspicious of ZONEACE because of his lack of contribution, not his attitude. Having gone this long with a pattern lacking contribution, I'm pretty suspicious of that.

And I'm looking for the analysis and "good contributions" from Beastly, but in 24 posts, it's not that easy to find. If lack of contribution and unhelpfulness is bad in someone with 225 posts, worse in someone with 61... how is it worthy of being the second most town on your list for someone with 34?

THAT is my question. It's not a defense of JDodge, nor of ZONEACE either, it's a question of why it's scummy in two cases, why other people are agreeing on JDodge, and why no one is questioning Elmo's lack of contribution as well. Why are JDodge and ZONEACE the most scummy, and Elmo is second most town?

I think Beastly was very sincere and made good points in several of his few posts. He was also on the Zorg wagon, and I approve of that action. I don't think he would have tried to bus his partner already on Day 1.

As for his 24 posts, he's obviously not going to have a high post count, because he got replaced, duh! I think it's a little misleading to say that Beastly's low post count is indicative of alignment when he disappeared from the game altogether.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Up until today i have not seen any scuminess in mos, however his complete 180 on Z makes me think otherwise.

How the fuck is going from "He should not be lynched today" to "He might be scum because he's *still* not contributing" at 180? They aren't even related statements!!!!

[Mastermind of Sin]

"this" refers to the fact that ZONEACE is always angry and aggressive. That has nothing to do with how much he contributes to the game. However, BooKitty has made the very good point that ZONEACE's reaction to my suspicion of him was very

unlike

him, yet you assert that his play has not changed? Please get your facts straight.

[Mastermind of Sin]

JDodge, why are you voting Setael2?

Anyone at all, want to explain why Elmo is obviously pro-town and JDodge is obviously scum? If it's just based on lurking, why is JDodge scummier than Elmo? If it's something else, can you explain, make a case, just say why?

I already did this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

JDodge, why are you voting Setael2?

Anyone at all, want to explain why Elmo is obviously pro-town and JDodge is obviously scum? If it's just based on lurking, why is JDodge scummier than Elmo? If it's something else, can you explain, make a case, just say why?

I already did this.

No, really you haven't.

Being unhelpful is being unhelpful, and it's my experience that scum tend to be nicer in their unhelpfulness than unhelpful town.

I'm not going to agree with suspicions when I don't even understand what they are based on.

Being unhelpful != Lurking. I am not voting JDodge just for lurking. I am voting him for being unhelpful. There is a difference. Elmo/Beastly have been far more helpful than JDodge, even though they have far less posts than he does.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes. The only point I was trying to get across was that voting ZONEACE based on him being angry and aggressive is a retarded idea. Being angry and aggressive does not prevent one from contributing, however.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Both. Sir T has gone into hiding so there's not much more info from him but I have no reason to think he's town. JDodge's attack of me could've been intended to pull Sir T out of the spotlight. I can definitely see them being scum together.

That's a non-answer. Are you saying that both players are equally suspicious? He didn't ask if you thought they were both scum. He asked which one was likelier scum. If one was scum and the other wasn't, which one would be the scum, in your opinion?

[Mastermind of Sin]

*pokes niv*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are you going to hide in the shadows in plain sight as you have all game or are you going to state a case to respond to?

Hypocrit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*Hypocrite >_>

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm currently voting ZONEACE. I am not as convinced as everyone else seems to be that Mastermind of Sin is town, especially since he made a case against two people for lurking while seemingly ignoring a third far worse offender... how did he come up with these two people? He said he did a reread... and didn't notice that Beastly and Elmo were by far the least active posters?

This is completely bullshit reasoning. You're acting like I didn't reread Beastly/Elmo. I specifically commented on them when I did my reread. I don't know how many times I have to say this.

Their contribution far outweigh any lack of posting they have. Beastly/Elmo have contributed more than ZONEACE and JDodge

combined

. Their lurking is the kind of lurking that needs to be prodded, whereas ZONEACE and JDodge are

active lurking

. There is a huge fucking difference, and I'm incredulous that BooKitty

still

is ignoring that completely.

I'm curious to know what other people think of Mastermind of Sin's scumlist. I have no real reason to think JDodge is town, and he's done some things that made me feel really suspicious of him... but I can't shake this thought:

I really was suspicious of ZONEACE early on. MoS was there at every step to defend him and take up for him, even when ZONEACE was directing the power roles and doing some pretty indefensible things. But now, at this point, when logically the number of possibilities has narrowed, MoS suddenly lists ZONEACE as one of his prime suspects? When questioned about that, he says, "All of my suspicions have appeared out of nowhere, because I did a full reread of everyone's posts and came up with a read on them. In past days, I haven't had time to reread to look at the big picture, and so only the recent events stick in my mind unless they were major. "

Now you're just lying. Please quote even one instance where I defended ZONEACE for directing the power roles. Asking you to expand upon your own reasons is NOT a defense, and you know it.

No one else commented ZONEACE's very muted reply to MoS's accusation (though since it was not followed by a vote, I suppose that is reasonable), but I can't shake this thought: MoS was scum in another game, and defended ZONEACE, but ZONEACE never suspected this might be the case here? Why would that be? Perhaps because ZONEACE knows MoS is not scum, or perhaps because they are scum together?

Did you completely miss the part where I agreed that ZONEACE's response seemed scummy to me, or are you ignoring it on purpose?

ZONEACE knows as much as I do that my defense of him on Day 1 was a null tell. I will do that in any game where he starts off by getting wagoned Day 1 for being abrasive, because that's a retarded reason to wagon him. It does not matter what my alignment is, and it does not matter what his alignment is. I will defend him when he gets wagoned for doing something that could not possibly indicate his alignment. I will defend him as strongly as possible, and I will call him protown repeatedly throughout that day, until the idiots trying to lynch him shut the fuck up. After that, all's fair in love and war. Nothing prevents me from reevaluating my position based on other factors.

BooKitty is really starting to feel like a scum mason to me. The last time someone was this unreasonably illogical towards me, they turned out to be scum. I don't think it's possible for someone to be

THAT

illogical and still be protown. Even Battle Mage makes concessions when he's wrong. Shit, even ToasterStrudel/DGB makes concessions when she's wrong (except when she's scum, which is exactly my point).

FoS: BooKitty

When we get to addressing the scum mason issue, you're going to be my first pick of the litter.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now you're just lying. Please quote even one instance where I defended ZONEACE for directing the power roles. Asking you to expand upon your own reasons is NOT a defense, and you know it.

Actually, demanding examples and "charts" as part of my explanation for finding ZONEACE's actions scummy? I think most people would find that a "defense". When I made the same request back to you, you ignored it, because it was unreasonable, and even YOU knew it.

I didn't make an unreasonable request. I "asked" you for charts and made it pretty obvious that it was a joke. I even specifically said that I wasn't actually asking for charts. You're acting like I made that request in all seriousness. I'm going to quote the post just to prove how wrong you are.

Okay, based on a variety of things, most notably his insistence on directing the play of those with night actions, I'm going to

vote ZONEACE

I realise that this will be greeted with a chorus of people saying that he always plays like this and it's not at all scummy, but I find it scummy, and if he always plays like that, then he should learn how not to play so scummy as town.

I would like you to personally explain WHAT is scummy about him directing the play of those with night actions. Please provide examples and charts with your presentation (ok maybe not charts, but examples for sure). Be thorough and logical as well.

You didn't actually provide any reasoning for your vote on ZONEACE. You pointed out one thing he did that you said was scummy, but you didn't say why it's scummy. I don't think it's unreasonable at all for me to ask you to explain your reasoning. It's not like directing power roles is inherently a scummy action, so that you just pointing it out makes a case on its own. I merely asked you to back up your accusation with an explanation of *why* it was scummy. That's not defending ZONEACE at all. If you had said that about anyone, it's common sense to ask you to explain it further.

I wasn't being unreasonable

at all

.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, your posts have a lot of reasoning for a vote on ZONEACE. I didn't say they didn't. You're strawmanning, BooKie. I said that your vote for ZONEACE brought up a reason that you did not justify. That specific post said there were reasons for voting him that were no inherently scummy. So I asked you to explain.

Also, the people that attacked me for directing the power roles had plenty of reasoning for it. The plan I presented was

wrong

. Had my plan been allowed to get put into action, we would've been fucked. There wasn't anything to question.

And anyway, ff what ZONEACE did was a more serious offense, why is it a bad thing that I asked you to actually back it up?

[Mastermind of Sin]

To ask someone for reasoning for their vote or their suspicion is not a bad thing. I do it all the time.

To do so only on behalf of one person is pretty good evidence for a link between you two. For instance, that's a pretty good linking scumtell early in a game, where someone suddenly asks for the reasoning behind a vote when none of the other unexplained votes are noteworthy or provoke questions. This was well past day one, and you were still reacting to any attacks on ZONEACE immediately with questions and demands for justification. If I could find an example (and I would welcome your doing so, actually) of you doing the same for someone else, or of you defending someone else consistently, I would not regard this as an odd thing. I likely would not bring it up, or would bring it up as a point in your favour.

BooKitty, you have been

forcing

me to connect myself to ZONEACE ever since you entered the game. You keep attacking me or him, and alot of your attacks directly or indirectly imply a connection between the two of us. Do you expect me to stay silent when you are insinuating that I have some sort of alterior motive to doing something that's simply common sense? It's just retarded. I don't let shit like that slide, and I never have. Anyone who has seen me play a game with Toaster Strudel/DrippingGoofball knows that I get pissed off by crackpot theories that should be obviously wrong. I can't ignore shit like that anymore, because I'm tired of getting railroaded by people for retarded reasons.

The fact that you didn't do much of a reread until this day, and then came up with all new suspicions that included ZONEACE, seemed like a point in your favour. But then I did a reread, and all the defences of ZONEACE (and yes, questioning the reasons for someone else's vote on ZONEACE does count as a defence when you're not doing the same for anyone else) don't seem to make sense unless you were really not paying any attention to his behaviour, but just defending it/questioning other people for questioning it without actually noticing what it WAS at that time.

D

U

H

Keep up with the times, babe.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS: You connected yourself very strongly to ZONEACE from the start of the game. By your own statements you were aware of it and it was a conscious choice. To complain because you have to defend actions you chose to take, day one or day four, is rather odd.

No, I didn't. I very obviously applied a null tell meta on ZONEACE for the beginning of the game. It is

YOU

that forced me to continue to be connected to ZONEACE by linking us together in your attacks on each of us.

The post you quoted was you questioning/defending ZONEACE when under absolutely NO pressure from me to do so. I didn't address my post to you, nor was my vote for you, nor did I make any comments about you when I voted him. So I hardly think you can regard that as FORCING you to defend him in that case. I was actually surprised by your demands for an elaborate explanation at the time.

You're right. You didn't address me. And I didn't defend ZONEACE. I merely asked you to elaborate on your suspicion of ZONEACE. Had you provided a good explanation in response to my request, I might've voted ZONEACE. I have yet to see a good explanation for why ZONEACE is scummy for his "doc direction". Therefore, I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to ask you to justify that accusation.

Do you think there's any harm in asking MoS to explain his suspicions more fully, Ether? Can you explain exactly why you are sure he's town, or link me to the post where you explained it?

If you're in "lazy" mode then what is the harm in someone else questioning MoS and pressuring him to figure out what his logic is? I still don't see why Elmo's lack of posting makes him second most town. More town than ZONEACE and JDodge? Maybe. Second most town of all remaining people? I don't see how. And I still haven't gotten a decent answer for this question.

You don't need to pressure me to find out what my logic is. I gave you my logic before you even started pressuring me. It's not like I withheld my reasoning or anything. You're just making me repeat myself. You HAVE gotten a decent answer to your question, SEVERAL times. You're just refusing to acknowledge my explanation when it's right in front of you.



Sir Tornado needs to wake up and smell the coffee. His recent actions are not inspiring any confidence in my read on him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How do you mean by recent actions MoS? Pretty much the only thing I am doing is saying you are scum and I have been doing it the whole day. There isn't anything recent about it.

By recent actions I mean this whole day. My read on you was made at the beginning of the day. You have been acting fairly unreasonable today. You have yet to even present a case against me, but you've been trying to get me lynched regardless. It feels like you're trying to ride whatever momentum BooKitty creates without having to do any work yourself. That way, when I die and come up town, the responsibility falls on her, not you.

Right, sorry. My bad. I see what you mean now.

Just to be sure, you got this from his suspicion list in 2100?

I still think you're reading too much into it -- MOS obviously considers JDodge and ZONEACE scummy, and expressed his dislike for Flare. I don't know why exactly Sir Tornado is the top of his town list, though it may be because he's just the most active non-mason but that leaves two 'neutralish-townish' players -- Elmo and I -- and the both of us have very few posts total with our originals. His decision of which of us to put as 2nd and 3rd from the bottom of his naughty list may have been pretty arbitrary. MOS? Discuss?

Yea, the three of you were pretty equal (with a slight advantage to Sir Tornado, who had been really active and *still* hadn't given off any scumtells, whereas the other two had less posts to sliip up in). Lurking in itself is never a good reason to suspect someone, so the fact that neither of you had a lot of posts didn't really bother me.

I might as well update my scumlist, since enough has happened lately:

JDodge
ZONEACE
Setael II
Sir Tornado
Elmo
Korejora

Ok I am going to claim now. I am the vig.

This may look odd timed, but I think it is necessary I make myself a mafia NK target to make sure none of the masons, whose survival I deem extremely necessary for the town to win, are taken out on N5. And, I am willing to take a straw poll among everyone for the night kill. Also, I think that mafia would have figured this out already by now.

Who should I NK tonight? Right now, I am looking at one of MoS/JDodge/Setael/Elmo.

I would also like to hear your thoughts on White, and why you think mafia would want to kill White on N1. (because I killed Flameaxe)

This claim makes no sense. Why would you want to claim? The mafia don't want to kill the masons because they want the scum mason to live, duh. The masons *already* weren't a NK target.

They were trading threats of having their adversaries forcibly replaced from the game, so I doubt ZONEACE would have been certain that Lemming would not investigate him.

Umm, pretty sure it was Lemming and

myself

who requested that the other get replaced.

I am pming the mod with a request that Lemming be forceably replaced out of this game. I suggest that you all follow suit. There is no point in playing with someone who insists on playing like a retard and flaming people repeatedly out of immaturity. At least ZONEACE is actually playing the game, even if it's in his style to use AdHom. Lemming is just being immature and annoying as hell. I don't want him in this game anymore.

I'm going to be messaging the mod that we forcibly remove MoS from the game his style of gameplay is completely getting out of hand and there's no reason for him to be getting all pissed off when he should step outside breath some air and realize I was using logic in my arguments.

You can agree or disagree with my arguments but its uncalled for to call someone stupid for it.

So I request everyone else please message the mod in suit and have MoS replaced

Pretty sure ZONEACE was only tangentially related to that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is JDodge so focused on a mason?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS:

Profanity != Flaming. Lemming is flaming for no reason at all. ZONEACE is using ad hom attacks on people because he's clearly pissed off at how they're acting. He may not be acting the way other people would, but at least it has a reason. Lemming is flaming purely because he gets off at insulting people. That is not playing mafia. No matter how bad you think ZONEACE's play has been, he IS playing the game. You cannot argue against that.

I already explained this. ZONEACE was

playing the game

. Whether or not you agree with how he plays, his comments were still relevant to the game. I think he got the point across quite well, even if it got on people's nerves. You, on the other hand, were flaming him out of your own immaturity, just because you thought it was funny. That is not acceptable behavior by any standard.

These are the reasons I thought ZONEACE was far more than tangentially involved in that dispute.

Umm, what reasons? What you quoted just proved that ZONEACE had only a tangential involvement in the dispute. The dispute was between me and Lemming, and ZONEACE was merely part of the topic of the dispute. You claimed that it was Lemming and ZONEACE who were trying to get each other replaced. It was quite obviously Lemming and

myself

, *not* ZONEACE, who were the participants in that dispute.

Essentially Ether is saying that you are town due to the scum not roleblocking Lemming. I'm sure you've read our arguments back and forth on the subject. Do you believe that her argument is a valid one in regards to you? Do you believe that the same reasoning would also clear ZONEACE?

I'm not even sure why I'm answering this question, because there's no way I can give a direct defense of myself based on a hypothetical situation like this. I haven't really commented on this so far because anything I say I can almost guarantee will be thrown out the window as WIFOM, so there isn't really much point. But, you asked, so I'll do my best to give you an answer.

I know that her argument is

true

, so I believe it's valid, from my perspective. The problem is, you have to know me pretty well, so unless you're me or you know how I think (which Ether does), you probably won't believe it's valid. However, for those of you that *do* know anything about me, you know that I'm almost always the last person alive on my scum team in any given game. I'm almost always the last line of defense before we lose, because for some reason the rest of my team fucks up or gets nightkilled. Given the amount of arguing Lemming and I had and the aggressiveness he showed towards me, I would not have been surprised to get investigated. This may be arrogant of me, but I never hold a lot of faith in my scum teammates. I have been burned too many times by teammates that did stupid shit to get themselves killed. It's gotten to the point where there aren't many people I trust to get the job done besides myself. So if I thought I was going to get investigated that night, I would've roleblocked Lemming.

No, I don't think her reasoning applies to ZONEACE, because I don't think there was any strong reason to believe ZONEACE would get investigated. ZONEACE *might* have been a long-shot third choice investigation after myself and TS (I'd have to reread to see if anyone else would place above ZONEACE on that list), but I really don't see a good argument for the possibility that Lemming would have investigated ZONEACE night 1 over two much stronger targets. Even if TS is taken out of the picture as an assumed scum for Lemming (he did seem to assume she was scum, after all, which is why I wouldn't have been surprised if he didn't bother to investigate her), there is a much better argument for an MoS investigation than a ZONEACE investigation.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I wrote a big post responding to the quotes below, but I lost it because I started copying links to Phoebus while the only copy of the message was in my clipboard. -_-

You are greatly underestimating MoS here. If he is scum, the last chance town is going to get of catching him is through tonight's vig. After that, town has absolutely no chance of nailing MoS-scum -- not with ZONEACE and Elmo around. If he is scum, and I do not vig him, he wins the game for scum. It is as simple as that. The problem is, that it is more or less true with Setael2 as well, albeit to a lesser extent. Setael2 does get bonus points for being the one to introduce the mafia traitor theory (mafia are more unlikely to introduce such a theory if it were true than town), so, if JDodge comes up town, MoS vig no

I don't classify ZONEACE and JDodge in at all the same category as Elmo, and I think that's why you and I aren't understanding each other. To me, those two are NOT lurkers. If anything, they fall under the category of active lurker, and I think you'd have a hard time disproving me on that. The thing is, both of them have stayed in the game and posted enough to be active, but neither of them have

contributed

anything in their posts. I find them scummy not because they haven't posted a lot, but because they haven't done anything with the posts they have. I can understand people who can't be as active as everyone else. It happens. Activity is not inherently scummy. I care about what you do with the activity you have, and ZONEACE/JDodge have wasted their posts, posting enough that they don't get replaced, but not actually helping the town.

As for Korejora and Setael2, I don't see how you can claim I haven't addressed them. I'm pretty sure I was all over Setael2's wagon yesterday, and I think I've commented enough on that. The contribution I've seen from Setael2 convinced me that she was innocent. I've also given my reasoning for Korejora's position on the scumlist as well. Where did you get the idea that I was not addressing them?

Setael:

He asked for input. Others already gave theirs. Why would you think he'd take my advice more seriously than he would that of others? Just because I happened to mention you?

He seems to be depending on you to make his cases for him.

I think Sir Tornado can figure out for himself (and will) who he will vig.

BooKitty, why is it that you are so rabid after me to get a reason for everything I do, but you seem to have no problem that SirT has claimed a killing ability and claimed several people that he is willing to kill without giving *any* reason for suspecting him? After you were so hard on me for calling you out about ZONEACE and not doing it for anyone else, it seems a little odd that you would go after me for further explanation and not Sir T.