Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[The Fonz]

Vote: MoS

get it out of the way early.

[The Fonz]

Oh, I agree entirely.

Unvote, vote Flameaxe

[The Fonz]

I'm not bucking at pressure because I'm just a newbie at this game because I made a stupid mistake in voting Flameaxe and made an even worse mistake when I asked why he was voting me which came off scummish as we are still in the random voting stage. The reason I asked him that though is because he said there was actual reasoning behind his vote not just OMGUS in post 33. I then unvoted Flameaxe after Beastly unvoted me to OMGUS vote him.

Voting Flameaxe wasn't the mistake. Halfway to lynch is a little high for a completely baseless bandwagon, but Flameaxe wasn't in any immediate danger. The mistake was not knowing

why

you voted him. That, and not providing a reason for your own vote, then expecting Flameaxe to provide you with one on you.

Also: we're not in the random stage anymore.

Unvote, vote hmrox

[The Fonz]

I like how everyone is clear from joke bandwagon voting, but when I do its scummy. And then when I defend myself by pointing this out it's scummy. gg guys.

I find it scummy to jump, based on 'joke/random' reasoning, onto a bandwagon that already had people on it for actual reasons.

[The Fonz]

Don't ask me, I'm not voting you.

[The Fonz]

Miller mason? I could buy that. Personally, though, I feel like Niv just jumped to conclusions based on a misreading of what Sim said, and that suggesting one or other MUST be scum is a false dichotomy on Zoneace's part.

[The Fonz]

Yes, I know the difference. But it's entirely possible the 'untrustworthy' mason would be a miller, and not a scum.

[The Fonz]

Ryan has pretty much admitted playing differently from his usual playstyle in order to stay alive. Can we please lynch him already?

[The Fonz]

I think you meant to say that in Big Love.

Correct. Weird, as I had the post I was replying to in front of me. Must have had multiple tabs open.

[The Fonz]

Can someone please sum up what the original case on ZONE is? I don't mean the whole reaction-to-bandwagon thing, which isn't good play by any means, but is something i've seen townies do before, hell, I'VE done it before, (though I'm not proud of the fact) and only ever as town.

[The Fonz]

Flameaxe didn't come under any pressure though. It was a completely random, unreasoned bandwagon.

[The Fonz]

That's sigworthy.

[The Fonz]

But bugging the mod about participation is something scum FREQUENTLY do to look town without actually benefitting the town that much, and is ridiculously wifom. Claiming that moaning about poor participation makes you town is actually the scummiest thing you've done yet.

Let's look at that first post, shall we:

I must say I'm not pleased with Niv's descision to out the mason group. Unconfirmed mason does not equal mafia mason, it can, but its not a definite and if everyone in the mason group ends up being town then outing anymore of them jsut gives the mafia more easy targets.

You also vote for Sim for 'voting for someone that believes you.' That's not scummy. Not for a second. Sim also gave good, logical reasons for his vote that you simply ignored.



I don't know why but at this point I'm leaning toward beleiving Simeon over Niv, but FOS BOTH OF THEM[/quote]

You state that unconfirmed mason does not equal scum mason. Then you FoS both of them and talk about believing one over the other, as if it is a necessity that one is telling the truth and the other scum, as if the first paragraph had never existed.

[The Fonz]

unvote

[The Fonz]

Fonz: I don't know why but I get scummy vibes off him. Need to look into it more.

FFS, I swear if one more person, in one more game, declares that they get a 'scummy vibe' off me, without having a clue why, I'm going to kill someone.

[The Fonz]

Nice rolefish.

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote booboodafool

Celtic doesn't do anything, and then booboo immediately shows up with a 'person C' vote.

[The Fonz]

What was the point of that post?

Uh, yeah, a defence.

A defense? For what? I dont even know what im accused of? How about the people who voted for me give me a reason and defend there vote?

I think the reason for the votes on you is pretty clear. Your scummy person C vote. Your pretence there is no case seems pretty panicky to me.

Also, Setael's last vote is full of fail.

[The Fonz]

WTF has 'commonly accepted' got to do with anything? It's something I believe in, as do several others, and with good reason. There's very little in this game that is 'commonly accepted'- see the flamewar that almost inevitably follows any vote made on the basis of LynchAllLiars.

Here's Yos' basic explanation of his use of the 'Person C' tell, the bit I've bolded is basically the crux of the matter:

If I look at any game, and see person A make a bad argument saying person B is scum, and then person C jumps in and says "yup, I agree with person A" without making any points of his own, I always suspect person C.

It's a scumtell to quietly throw your support behind a bandwagon, while hiding behind someone else's arguments. It's actually quite a good scumtell, and something scum do often, because

it's a way to get townies lynched without sticking your own neck out.

It's one of the oldest and most reliable scumtells.

[The Fonz]

That's the argument for person C votes being a tell. You'll pardon me if I think 'because it's scummy' is ample reason for a wagon.

Booboo wasn't 'bewildered' he asked that people 'gave a reason' and 'explained their vote.' Since we already had given reason, who gives an eff that he didn't understand it? It's not like 'person C' is something I made up.

[The Fonz]

basically, person A votes person B, and forwards an argument for B's scumminess.
Person C votes person B, saying 'I agree with A.' This is scummy for the reasons expounded above.

[The Fonz]

Erg0: I didn't exactly like Celtic either.

[The Fonz]

That isn't the point either. I was making the point that there was actually more to the vote than just person C. And I strongly disagree with you. Throwing accusations of 'OMG you're voting me for no reason' is a newbscum tell.

[The Fonz]

Dislike Ergo defending booboo. I think bb himself can explain that he didn't know what "Percon C" is. I personally don't think it's as strong as Fonz would like it either, but that's not why I'm voting him anyway.

Why are we voting TVZ?

booboo already did say that, that was my entire point. The problem is that Fonz chose to paint ignorance as panic.

WTF makes you so sure it's ignorance and not panic? I'd expect a town player, not knowing what person C was, to either ask, or look it up. Booboo's actual response was rather too fingerpointy, too playing the martyr, to come from sincere motives. (Also, the assertion that two of four gave no reason is plainly false- it is clear K-Scope's vote is a lurkervote. Also, that came chronologically before mine- yet Booboo put it last, which makes it look, falsely, as if scope were bandwagon jumping.

Also, the initial Zeppo argument (pretty much attacking people for not stating reasons) is a bad one, hence i don't like the way it was followed. NOT GIVING REASONS IS NOT A SCUMTELL.

[The Fonz]

NOT GIVING REASONS IS NOT A SCUMTELL.

Just out of curiousity here but how do you know the difference between not giving reasons but having them and not having reasons but claiming to have them?

Work out if there

are

sufficient grounds to vote the player in question as town.

[The Fonz]

Zorg- why the hell would there be a counter wagon, when there was

absoutely no danger of flameaxe actually getting lynched off that wagon at that point?

[The Fonz]

Also, Setael's last vote is full of fail.

I haven't voted yet, so what would you be talking about here? The person I replaced had voted lemming and I haven't removed it yet since I did find lemming quite scummy when I read. I need to finish my analysis of everyone before I vote. So.... what exactly is full of fail?

I wrote vote, i meant post. Meh. Sue me.

Fonz: Flameaxe might have been lynched. Or at least he came under alot of pressure, and if he was scum, you can be sure that his scumbuddies would want to relieve him of that pressure. Hence the pushing of an alternative wagon.

The response to that is easy: that simply isn't true.

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote Toaster Strudel

Scummy. You vote White if you think he's scum, not to force a claim (since, unless he's scum, a claim is a bad thing).

[The Fonz]

What's more likely...a crazy dethy setup for this game or a scum getting bandwagoned day 1 claiming cop to out the real cop

If you thought he were scum trying to out a real cop, why on earth would you have thought it a good idea to give him precisely what he wants?

[The Fonz]

I'm going to be messaging the mod that we forcibly remove MoS from the game his style of gameplay is completely getting out of hand and there's no reason for him to be getting all pissed off when he should step outside breath some air and realize I was using logic in my arguments.

You can agree or disagree with my arguments but its uncalled for to call someone stupid for it.

So I request everyone else please message the mod in suit and have MoS replaced

No, he's right, your argument is completely ludicrous. He never said we should

never

lynch a claimed cop- he said we shouldn't lynch one

today.

Very early claims have a tendency to work themselves out.

Also,

unvote

as i believe i forgot to do so in my last post.

[The Fonz]

Perhaps rather than have anyone being forcibly replaced now we could say that from now on anyone who swears is forcibly replaced?

fuck that

QFT. I personally find players acting like the posterboy for Lobotomies R Us far more detrimental to my enjoyment than a bit of language.

[The Fonz]

We are NOT lynching a claimed cop today.

[The Fonz]

Okay. Provide a reasonable alternative.

Your absolute determination to lynch claimed cop is noted.

Returning to my earlier booboo vote would be my strongest preference (his 'I don't even see WHY I should have to defend myself from person C allegations' line when that very tell has caught scum plenty o' times before is very scummy) whilst amongst those with fairly large wagons on 'em atm, Zorg is the scummiest.

[The Fonz]

Okay. Provide a reasonable alternative.

Your absolute determination to lynch claimed cop is noted.

Returning to my earlier booboo vote would be my strongest preference (his 'I don't even see WHY I should have to defend myself from person C allegations' line when that very tell has caught scum plenty o' times before is very scummy) whilst amongst those with fairly large wagons on 'em atm, Zorg is the scummiest.

I still find person C a useless tell. but thats just me. and i still don't like you using it, again, just me.

I find it an extraordinarily useful tell, so the onus is on you (and booboo) to demonstrate why it isn't, if you don't want it used. Do you not accept that scum have reason to hide behind other people's arguments in order to cause mislynches without being too strongly associated with the lynch? In the same way I think any vote made with the justification 'we're nearing deadline and any lynch is better than none' is scummy.

[The Fonz]

I find it an extraordinarily useful tell, so the onus is on you (and booboo) to demonstrate why it isn't, if you don't want it used. Do you not accept that scum have reason to hide behind other people's arguments in order to cause mislynches without being too strongly associated with the lynch? In the same way I think any vote made with the justification 'we're nearing deadline and any lynch is better than none' is scummy.

Basically a person C is a bandwagoner. Ok im a bandwagoner. But so is everyone else in this game. The fact that agreeing with someone makes them mafia is ludicrous.

I've already responded to your accusations. I dont feel like looking back that far for it but i'll quote it the next you bring it up

Not quite. A person C voter is a bandwagoner who hides behind someone else's argument in doing so.

[The Fonz]

Gotta love Blackadder.

[The Fonz]

Basically, it seems like the lynch will have to be Zeppo, Zorg, or no-lynch. I suggest that it is the pro-town thing to do right now for everyone to commit to one of those three (and none of this no-lynch is scummy BS. No-lynch is infinitely preferable to wagonning someone you think is town 'to avoid the no-lynch.')

[The Fonz]

Ed: or white, since he seems to have as many votes as Zorg.

[The Fonz]

vote: Zorg

[The Fonz]

Your mother?

[The Fonz]

I want to hear cop results before we do anything else.

[The Fonz]

I completely fail to see how MoS considering the possibility of multiple cops is a 'slip.'

[The Fonz]

MULTIPLE COPS IS NOT BROKEN.


MULTIPLE COPS IN A GAME THIS SIZE IS COMMON.



This is something we need to understand and accept. That said.

QFT.

[The Fonz]

I'm OK with that.

Lemming, result please!

[The Fonz]

You bet Ts *is*, insane, or claims to be?

[The Fonz]

I just see Setael's post as kinda defending TS announcing a guilty on a pro-town player before the fact...

[The Fonz]

What she said.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and i suggest no one vote on the basis of one 'cop's' 'results' until we've heard from both.

[The Fonz]

Guys- at this point, a claim from me is unavoidable.

I am a tracker. I followed TS last night, and TS performed no night action.

[The Fonz]

Possibilities:

1. Lemming is insane or naive
2. TS is Godfather
3. Both are scum (unlikely)

[The Fonz]

Oh, and

vote: Toaster Strudel

, obviously.

[The Fonz]

In a big game like this, where multiple cops are often encountered, a player is better off discretely

investigating

a cop claimant the next night, rather than outing himself with a counterclaim during the day.

THIS post makes me think GF.

[The Fonz]

Look, whether TS comes up GF or regular scum, there is some case for protecting me, some case for protecting lemming, and a case for protecting neither of us. I'll trust the doc to work that one out for him/herself.

[The Fonz]

Bah, go town.