Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

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Vote: Zeppo

He was my least favourite Marx Brother.

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Yamahako =/= Yamahoko

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He did indeed say that, and I'd like to hear what his "little bit of reasoning" consisted of. I was waiting for an explanation in his next post, but that's come and gone without an answer. He's got plenty of votes on him to establish pressure already, though.

FoS: Flameaxe

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Unvote, Vote: Zoneace

There's a difference between "leaning to" and actually believing someone. Even if there weren't, it's hardly a valid argument.

Niv, Sim: In reading your posts I get the impression that you're talking past each other a little bit. Niv, can you please clearly state the sequence of events, and exactly which PMs Sim picked up previously and which ones he just picked up now?

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Unvote

I need to re-read Niv and Sim's posts more closely.

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Responded with this line about how he thought out of 5 of us, at least one of us is probally mafia. and all this warning that was stated in the opening pm. i personally think that i cought Simenon as scum in pregame, for clearly not knowing the townie mason pm. When i called him out on this, he didn't respond. and he had atleast 2 days (i think) to do so.

he picked up the pm and then said nothin.

Sime has now picked up his pms.

in the pm that wasn't picked up until now i ask him if he was not told that or if that he was the one that just wasn't trustworthy?

This what has me confused - Niv seems to contradict himself about whether Simenon has actually read the PMs from him (Niv) or not. I'd really really like this clarified by both parties.

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Simulpost, just need Niv to clarify now.

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At its essence, the case against Sim seems to be that he sent out a warning against possible scum masons when this warning was already in the mason PM. To me, the important question is whether he would do this, even if he knew that the warning was in the PM. If the answer to that question is no then he almost certainly didn't receive the same PM as everyone else.

All this crap about who read what when is no more than a smokescreen, it's the initial action that's important.

Niv, can you please respond to this post:

my role pm says something along the lines of the factthat i am quite possitivve that someone canot be trusted in our masonry.

We may be interpreting that bit wrong. Mine could say something along those lines, but I got it as "you can be sure of a possibility" and not "you are sure there is a scum".

On a similar point:

This is why Niv thinks simenon is scum. He thinks he's outgeuessing the mod, but it sounds like Niv outed the mason deal because Simenon was enforcing a warning, and making sure they understood they weren't town just cause they could talk to them.

I personally find this pretty faulty and not very relevant.

Two reasons. Niv says it's in the OP in thread, but the mason pm about confirmed innocence is NOT in thread. How would he know about that without the PM?

Secondly, why are you so confident that Patrick mod wouldn't send him a mason pm as well, as that seems kind of unfair to scum masons, if there is even a scum mason.

Your first reason is incorrect, Niv says that the warning about possible scum is in his original PM, not in the thread.

Your second reason is pretty spurious, if Patrick did send Sim the townie PM then there'd be no reason for Sim to send out a warning, since he'd know that everyone already had it in their PM. You're arguing the wrong point here.

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Hence the reason that I asked Niv to respond to your earlier post on this very subject.

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It only disproves it entirely if Sim is telling the truth about the content of the townie mason PM, which those of us who haven't seen it don't know. Again, this is why I asked Niv to respond to Sim's previous point about his interpretation of the PM.

Also, I don't understand this sentence:

Also this covers the second reason as well, depending on his motivations.

The words "as well" seem to imply that you think you've addressed my problem with the first reason already, which you didn't.

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FoS: Yamahoko

You're distracting from the relevant discussion rather than contributing to it.

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Niv, please respond to my question in 184.

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While we're waiting for that...

ckillor: Do you really think that Niv is scum? Do you really think he'd try to pull something like this early on day 1 just to get the attention off a two-vote wagon on Lemming?

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Only PMs from the mod are able to directly confirm you. A mason PM is not from the mod, and could easily be faked because it's not in a standard format the way a role PM (usually) is. SirT gave an example in 198 of a game where Patrick allowed a mason PM to be quoted. I gather you disagree with the principle, but history is against you on this one.

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Unless Sim is going to contradict what Niv said about quoting PMs, Niv vs. Simenon is being consigned to my Big Book O' Time-Wasting Misunderstandings for now.

Flare either isn't reading very carefully or completely missed the point of one or two previous posts. Flare, this is the first reason I was referring to:

Two reasons. Niv says it's in the OP in thread, but the mason pm about confirmed innocence is NOT in thread. How would he know about that without the PM?

My response:

Your first reason is incorrect, Niv says that the warning about possible scum is in his original PM, not in the thread.

This was the point I was saying you hadn't addressed. The point itself is pretty much insignificant now, but the fact that you skipped over it twice gives me pause.

Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that you think Niv is scum? I was asking ckillor because he has his vote on Niv based on what looks to me like craplogic. Do you support his craplogic, or was that just an ill-advised flippant remark?

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I think you meant to say that in Big Love.

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Ow. Consider me smote.

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JDodge, you need to unvote first.

I'm not a fan of Flare's insistence that Niv's play could be a scum gambit. His argument seems to boil down to Niv's playstyle and the fact that it would be a bad play for a townie mason to claim so early.

Opposing arguments: I've played a game with Niv as well, and he wasn't an idiot by any means. He certainly wasn't so rash as to try anything so outrageous on day 1. The fact that it's a bad play for a townie would only be relevant if it was a better play for scum, and it's not. I'm kind of annoyed that ckillor dropped out before he could answer my question on this subject, but Flare's answer on his behalf is scummier still.

Vote: Flare

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Flare: you're still arguing the wrong point. Just because Niv did something that a mason shouldn't do, that doesn't make him scum. You could equally argue that he did something that scum shouldn't do (i.e. expose themselves for the sake of killing a single townie), so he must be a mason.

The reality of the situation is that he did something that was not a good play. As such, this is nothing more than a newb-tell.

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Actually, I'll amend that slightly: if Simenon turns out to be scum then what Niv did was a very good play. If Niv turns out to be scum then it's an appalling play. If neither turns out to be scum then it's just a bad play.

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A quick bit of reading reveals that ZONEACE was lynched day 1 in Mafia 29 for much the same thing he's doing here. He was that game's equivalent of a townie.

Since most of us (myself included) have never played with him, I thought it was worth checking into his previous play a little. It seems that this is not so out of character for him.

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Go read the game I referred to and soon you'll be agreeing with me too.

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This is the game I'm referring to. Just filter it down to ZONEACE's posts, it won't take you long to flick through.

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I'm going to reread your posts so far and see if you have been consistent with this approach towards Zoneace.

in the meantime, Unvote, Vote: Mastermind

I agree with this. MoS has done this three seperate times I believe. He auto agreed with Niv. Then around two pages later he hopped on me with three other people just agreeing with them, and then very shortly afterwards, he moved to SirT. (this is based off of memory and not looking back btw)

vote:MoS

I don't love the fact that both Flare and Zorg jumped on the MoS wagon while openly admitting that they needed to re-read him to be sure. Leaving room to backtrack, methinks - it's not like MoS has written a novel in this game, a re-read wouldn't be too much to ask before voting.

FoS: Zorg

since I'm already voting Flare.

Incidentally, Flare is pretty obviously an alt - I don't see how he would know MoS's tendencies otherwise.

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I don't love the fact that both Flare and Zorg jumped on the MoS wagon while openly admitting that they needed to re-read him to be sure. Leaving room to backtrack, methinks - it's not like MoS has written a novel in this game, a re-read wouldn't be too much to ask before voting.

As I explained earlier, MoS is a survivor. He's hard to read, and very good at avoiding night kills. It's never a bad long-term strategy, especially in a big game, to keep some heat on MoS. If he's scum, you hope that he might slip up. I don't know if that's what Flare and Zorg have in mind, but I sure wouldn't like MoS to get complacent.

Flare: maybe (depending on who he really is)
Zorg: I doubt it

I'm not going to assume intent that was never stated by either, though.

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It's possibly a little early to write the entire game off. That post sounds a little defeatist.

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CAN WE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT ZONEACE NOW?

I've seen half a dozen posts in the last page or so ask questions that have already been answered earlier in the thread. I provided a link to the game that Zeppo pointed out (along with the explanation of the role reversal) back on page 12. We talked about it. We laughed. We cried. Conclusions were reached.

This is a complete smokescreen and it's pissing me off, frankly. I'll admit that I have a higher tolerance for "loud" players than some, but the repeated re-hashing of this discussion is getting us nowhere. Everyone go look at some other players and see if you find them scummy instead of just loud. Or, if you're lazy, just vote for Flare. I'd probably accept Yamahako too.

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So your basic argument is that ZONEACE is so bad at the game that he's unable to conceal his scumminess even a little bit?

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LOL

Erg0, are you saying that zoneace has not made scumtells?

Are you saying that scum would never be so blatantly scummy?

ZONEACE's play certainly meets the textbook definition of blatantly scummy. Question is, if I know that and you know that, then isn't it reasonable to assume that he also knows that?

The next question is: why would he deliberately act scummy?

Now

that's

WIFOM.

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WIFOM, by its nature, invalidates

both

sides of an argument. If you accept that he must be acting scummy on purpose then you can't draw any conclusions from that because he could do it as either town or scum.

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WIFOM, by its nature, invalidates

both

sides of an argument. If you accept that he must be acting scummy on purpose then you can't draw any conclusions from that because he could do it as either town or scum.

I'm not saying he's acting scummy on purpose. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying he's making scumtells after scumtells, either purposelessly or not, and I think he's scum based off that. You're the one who said he can't be scum because someone who is scum wouldn't act so scummy. I'm just showing you how your argument is WIFOM

I didn;t say that, I'm well aware that the too scummy to be scum argument is WIFOM. My argument only goes as far as saying that I think ZONEACE isn't dumb enough to be giving off such obvious scumtells without being aware of it. Once you reach that point, it's a null tell.

So I go back to my original question:

So your basic argument is that ZONEACE is so bad at the game that he's unable to conceal his scumminess even a little bit?

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Ok, let's break it down into smaller questions:

1. Do you agree that ZONEACE's scumtells are extremely obvious?
2. Do you agree that ZONEACE is an experienced player?
3. Do you agree that ZONEACE is not stupid?

I believe that all of these questions can be answered "yes" with some certainty. Unless you can come up with another factor that I'm missing, the logical conclusion is that ZONEACE is aware of what he's doing. WIFOM applies to questions of motivation, whereas these are questions that can be answered definitively based on available facts.

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I give up on this. You've gone from calling WIFOM to completely ignoring the point of my questions, so you're obviously at the cognitive dissonance stage already.

When you come down, just look for someone useful to vote.

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What I think:

Zorg: Scummy, but too bold with his vote to be really embracing the noobscum ideal.

Kscope: More information required. Wagonny, possible scum.

Zeppo: Single issue candidate.

Flare: Lynch now pls.

Special bonus extended case (because I wasn't sure whether you were asking about Flare or him):

Flameaxe: I dunno. Seems fine, not much going on there. Post moar.

So why those four?

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Ether: I didn't even know Ether was playing

Ether just posted yesterday. Plus, she agrees with me about Flare and is therefore awesome.

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Zorg: Scummy, but too bold with his vote to be really embracing the noobscum ideal.

I'm curious here for Zorg-centric reasons. Elaborate?

Actually, I may have to retract that statement. I did a skim-through on Zorg yesterday for my own reference, and had the impression that he was being less cautious than I would expect from noobscum. Looking again just now I can see that I was probably mistaken, as he was 6th on the ZONEACE wagon and his vote for MoS was made amongst much equivocation. The only vote of his that was slightly bold was his vote on Celtic, but that came in the face of the big wagon on Flameaxe. I also note that he FoSed TS early and then followed her vote onto MoS, which is inconsistent. Upgrade Zorg back to scummy.

TS just blew my mind.

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I agree.

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Of course I know exactly what you're talking about, but I think the rest of the town would like to know what you mean by a Person C argument.

I think I covered my ignorance pretty well there...

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Ok, found the "Person C" reference that MoS mentioned above: looky here.

If I understand correctly, the basic idea is that Person C (booboo) is scummy for voting Person A (Yamahako) based on bad logic from Person B (Zeppo). I can kind of see Fonz's point on this one, though I'm not sure of the reliability of this particular tell because I haven't seen it in use before. I'll keep this in amongst my constant swirl of ideas.

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Evidently the Flare wagon is dying. Let's go to option B.

Unvote, Vote: The Venerable Zorg

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I really think that the people voting based on the Person C tell need to give a more complete account of themselves. This is not a commonly accepted tell as far as I know, so "Person C tell" is not a case.

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Pay attention, I already linked to that post. You'll pardon me if I expect more than "Yos said so" as the sole reason for a wagon. Given that at least 50% of the players (myself included) had clearly never heard of the tell before, is it that surprising that booboo was bewildered and wanted to know what the case against him was?

FoS: The Fonz

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Hey, here's another quote:

A defense? For what? I dont even know what im accused of?

You may not have made this up, but as far as booboo's concerned you may as well have. Two people vote him for no more reason than "this is because of his Person C vote", then two more people vote him without giving any reason at all. Do you really not see why a natural reaction might be to ask for a case? How is he supposed to defend himself if he doesn't even know why people are voting for him?

You know what

I

find scummy? People reaching for a case when they should be able to put the pieces together and figure out why someone's reaction is perfectly reasonable given the circumstances. You're trying way too hard to make booboo look scummy here.

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ZONEACE: read Fonz's post above for an explanation, or there's a link in my post 630 to the game that it came from.

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That isn't the point I'm making. The FoS is for post 687.

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Even if four people

are

voting you for no reason? Or at least no reason that you can understand?

Also, quit using hyperbole. booboo's post was nowhere near as panicky as you're trying to make it seem. I read it as him saying that he didn't understand the case, not that the case didn't exist.

Also, I find it interesting that you've decided at this point to expand your case as I originally asked, after it became clear that the other argument wasn't going to fly.

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Don't worry, I'd never heard of it either. I actually think that the use of the Person C tell to excuse a vote is almost an example of the Person C tell in itself, since the voter is effectively relying on someone else's argument of what constitutes a scumtell. Unfortunately I can't speak to the veracity of the tell itself because I haven't seen it used before.

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Dislike Ergo defending booboo. I think bb himself can explain that he didn't know what "Percon C" is. I personally don't think it's as strong as Fonz would like it either, but that's not why I'm voting him anyway.

Why are we voting TVZ?

booboo already did say that, that was my entire point. The problem is that Fonz chose to paint ignorance as panic.

There's case against Zorg in a few of my posts a while back. Shouldn't be hard to find.

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Dislike Ergo defending booboo. I think bb himself can explain that he didn't know what "Percon C" is. I personally don't think it's as strong as Fonz would like it either, but that's not why I'm voting him anyway.

Why are we voting TVZ?

booboo already did say that, that was my entire point. The problem is that Fonz chose to paint ignorance as panic.

WTF makes you so sure it's ignorance and not panic? I'd expect a town player, not knowing what person C was, to either ask, or look it up. Booboo's actual response was rather too fingerpointy, too playing the martyr, to come from sincere motives. (Also, the assertion that two of four gave no reason is plainly false- it is clear K-Scope's vote is a lurkervote. Also, that came chronologically before mine- yet Booboo put it last, which makes it look, falsely, as if scope were bandwagon jumping.

Check again, Kscope's vote was the fourth, in post 656. Yours was in post 615. It was not clear that Kscope's vote was a lurker vote, his comment on lurkers was directed to Niv, in response to this comment in Niv's 650:

Hi K: Are yuo lurking?

Funnily enough, I read booboo's post as a request for an explanation. In other words, he did ask and instead of explaining it you decided to take it as a scumtell. You're the one that made the initial assertion about booboo's reaction, what makes you so sure it was panic and not ignorance?

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Actually, he hasn't tried to discredit me yet. I feel kind of left out.

Mod:

While you've got the battery acid out, a prod on Flameaxe might also be in order.

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Wow, that was fast. I thought I remembered you mentioning you were away but I couldn't find it just now.

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LOL @ lack of Flare.

Having said that, could I suggest that you use fewer blocks of quotes? It makes your big posts a nightmare to read. It's ok to just refer to a post number every now and again instead of quoting the whole thing.

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I've Got My Eye On You.

Suspicion that's weaker than an FoS, basically.

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Why is TVZ getting away with being scum? We should vote him more, plz.

What he said. Zorg is wagonny, over-cautious and inconsistent.

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I agree, MoS and that other guy are totally on top of things.

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This is going nowhere.

I would like to suggest that everyone takes a good look at the four leading wagons (Yama, White, booboo and Zorg) and gives their assessment of each. All these posts saying "you should vote for this guy, yo" persuade nobody and will just give us 50 pages of crap to read through tomorrow. Yes, I know I've contributed to this, and I shouldn't have.

My take on each:

Yama: Could definitely be said to be active lurking, but says he has a plan. I'd be ok with letting him live past today to see if this goes anywhere.

White: Overly focused on lurkers and playstyle. Weird that he's left his vote on Yama the whole day despite the number of conflicts he's had with other players. Definitely don't like the "you're overreacting, I'm not voting you" thing. Really seems more interested in somewhat arbitrary theories (e.g. mentioning Jesters is a scumtell) than genuine scumhunting. Overall not liking him that much.

booboo: My thoughts on him are well documented. I wouldn't slot him in as a town, but he hasn't been scummy enough to deserve a lynch.

Zorg:

I don't love the fact that both Flare and Zorg jumped on the MoS wagon while openly admitting that they needed to re-read him to be sure. Leaving room to backtrack, methinks - it's not like MoS has written a novel in this game, a re-read wouldn't be too much to ask before voting.

[Zorg] was 6th on the ZONEACE wagon and his vote for MoS was made amongst much equivocation. The only vote of his that was slightly bold was his vote on Celtic, but that came in the face of the big wagon on Flameaxe. I also note that he FoSed TS early and then followed her vote onto MoS, which is inconsistent. Upgrade Zorg back to scummy.

Zorg is wagonny, over-cautious and inconsistent.

I still like Zorg best, because I think White's scumminess is more likely to be a byproduct of playstyle. I may be able to be persuaded, though.

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Perhaps I should have said my

detailed

thoughts are well documented. The summary of those thoughts was in the post.

I agree that "LYNCH "X" KTHXBAI" posts have their place, but the main wagons have stagnated and I feel we need a push to get things moving again. At present a number of people look like they're content to sit in place, which is ok so long as they're considering their options. I'm yet to see evidence of this from a lot of people.

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We're all just going around in circles. Im going to keep my vote on yama unless something better comes up

You don't consider any of the other wagons to be "something better"? If not, why?

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Simenon: Are you starting to see my point?

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I'd really like it if people would stop hopping off wagons just because the wagonee is lurking.

That just makes them more scummy!

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Zeppo: Zorg, Lemming, Zeppo, Beastly.

I honestly haven't a clue what this means.

That's what scum does. Cause confusion.

Lame. It's easy enough to understand what he's saying if you've read the whole post (as you claim you have). You're just looking for reasons to call him scummy.

Since we appear to be stalling and people are complaining we're getting nowhere, here's a plan:

Only 3 more votes on White and we'll be in a range to get a claim from him - we'll have some "information" whose veracity we can discuss.

I'm not going to vote him unless I think he's scum. My opinion of White is gradually improving now that he's casting a slightly wider net. Keeping an eye on Zorg, but right now:

Unvote, Vote: Toaster Strudel

[Erg0]

Yeesh, make up your mind...

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White doesn't seem too keen on Sim, either:

Sim: Tunnelvisioned and seems to want to appease mass majority. Likely anti town.

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Why did DG and TS repeat each other at the top of the page? That was weird...

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Erm wait, never mind. Figured it out.

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LOL. Sneaky.

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What he said.

Unvote, Vote: The Venerable Zorg

[Erg0]

Read his comments on each of the players he lists against you. That's his scumlist.

[Erg0]

Ok, I believe that claim but I don't like it. Lemming, had you considered the possibility that there's more than one cop, perhaps with varying sanities? I'm pretty sure someone already raised this earlier...

[Erg0]

I'm not sure I understand the first part of that post. Could you clarify please Ether?

[Erg0]

Erg0: I'm not getting why we (read: you) are bothering with cop sanity discussion. The original "I'm not buying it, TS, but I'll back off for now" sentiments were much better.

Lemming's following the "I'm a cop so you're not" line of thought, which I don't think is necessarily valid. My point was more that I didn't think it was the best time to claim than anything else. Ultimately, his claim makes me no more or less likely to want to lynch TS today.

I don't see why the mere mention of cop sanities provokes the "this isn't dethy" reaction. Multiple cops =/= Dethy, there are plenty of setups with just a sane cop and a naive cop (for instance).

You make an interesting point about Zeppo, I'll have a look back at him.

[Erg0]

I'm at a loss. Is it the counterclaim comment? are you saying he was rolefishing?

I suspect he's inferring that MoS was trying to discourage a counterclaim, possibly because he knew TS wasn't the cop?

I have some notes on MoS, but I want to hear what Sim is getting at before I go into it.

[Erg0]

I suppose... I didn't really read it that way, but I tend to be pretty lousy at picking up hints. I was more interested in the way that MoS jumped from wagon to wagon so quickly before and after the claim (Zorg, White, Zorg, TS, Zorg).

[Erg0]

Zorg and Flare: who are your current suspects other than MoS? You both seem to have been pretty seriously tunnelvisioned for the last 20-odd pages of this game.

[Erg0]

Lemming: Regardless of your own experience, on this site it's relatively common to have multiple cops (not sane cops, but cops all the same) in a game of this size. I don't come into a game thinking "oh, there will be multiple cops in this game", but seeing multiple cop claims on day 1 forces me to consider the possibility.

I can't speak on the contents of your PM, but I do believe your claim so I'll take your statements on that subject into account. The early claim certainly gives you credibility, but it severely compromises your effectiveness. If you die tonight then it doesn't matter how believable you were. It's a moot point anyway, what's done is done.

[Erg0]

Now is probably not the time for that discussion. Someone start a poll in GD.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with MoS about the content of his earlier post. Please, let's skip the "I'm the cop, do as I say" discussion. We're just wasting more time here.

[Erg0]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Dethy

[Erg0]

I don't think which of them is more convincing is really at issue here. Lemming's claim would have been an appalling move for scum, I see no reason why he would make it unless he really was a cop. The sole question is whether you find TS's claim believable in its own right, and whether you're prepared to risk lynching a claimed cop on day 1. Despite what you may think, this is not a competition between them.

[Erg0]

Fonz: why are you still voting for TS?

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Actually, while I'm asking questions:

Setael, why are you still voting for Lemming?

[Erg0]

Somehow I doubt that we're going to forget her cop claim by tomorrow.

I don't like Zeppo as a lynch. Zorg or Flare would be better for me.

[Erg0]

I can assure you, we're not making this multiple cop thing up. Some examples:

Mafia 51 had 2 cops (one sane, one insane) plus a semi-cop.

Mafia 59 had 3 cops.

Mafia 60 had 2 cops.

[Erg0]

Yeah...I'm reeeeeeeeeeaaally not getting the MoShate.

It seems to be mostly based on the premise that we would never have dreamed of the multiple cop scenario if he hadn't brought it up. I can assure anyone who thinks this that it would have come up regardless. Even if TS comes up scum, what MoS said is correct from a town perspective and does not make him an automatic lynch. On that principle you'd also need to lynch me and the several other people who hold the same view.

[Erg0]

Just for lurking, or do you have any other reasons to suspect zorg?

There was a wagon on Zorg well before he started lurking, it's just taken this long for people to start paying attention. I find this post slightly disingenuous.

[Erg0]

FTR, I think Zeppo is town. Zorg is the way.

[Erg0]

Not to mention Kscope's vote above.

[Erg0]

Vote: Zorg

Let's try this again...

[Erg0]

Because nobody would listen to me yesterday, that's why.

[Erg0]

Christ, I already linked to several games with multiple cops, why are we still discussing this?

Ideally I guess TS should give her result first, but I don't think it makes a lot of difference at this point.

[Erg0]

Actually, I agree with Ether about the cop results. It's been a while since I played "follow the cop", so I'm a bit rusty.

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I have a guilty, so I think I should go last. It's going to rush the day, and reduce the amount of information we gather from it.

I don't think that's necessarily a safe assumption to make. It will only rush the day if we believe you.

[Erg0]

That probably depends on whether he has a guilty result too. Regardless, I'm happy to proceed for a while without a claimed result from either of you.

[Erg0]

Yeah, I thought that was weird too. Explain, Lemming?

[Erg0]

Yeah, I thought that was weird too. Explain, Lemming?

Well, since I didn't want to unvote Toaster all day yesterday after he claimed, and only did at the last minute in the hopes of someone I found scummy would be lynched, and then didn't IMMEDIATELY vote Toaster today should be some kind of indication that I got an innocent result on toaster, who I found way more controversial than MoS.

So now I'm talking about MoS being scummy...how is that contradicting?

Well, you're calling MoS scummy for raising the idea that there are two cops, but if you're telling the truth about being a cop then your result would seem to indicate that there

are

two cops (since you got an innocent on the other claimed cop).

At the start of day 2 you still seemed to think that you were the only cop, whilst at the same time having an innocent result on TS. That doesn't make sense to me.

[Erg0]

While I'm talking to the cops...

I have a guilty, so I think I should go last. It's going to rush the day, and reduce the amount of information we gather from it.

TS: Did you really think that Lemming could have been quicklynched based on your guilty result?

[Erg0]

Well TS obviously isn't a cop if she didn't do anything. We'll get the answer on the other question once we lynch her.

Unvote, Vote: Toaster Strudel

[Erg0]

The Fonz is lying.

You can lynch me, I don't care - tomorrow you'll be lynching Fonz. Along with Lemming counterclaiming cop on Day 1, and Fonz outing himself as lying scum on Day 2, and lynching a cop, nobody knows how to play this game anymore, it seems.

If he's lying then we're trading an insane/paranoid cop for a scum. That works for me.

[Erg0]

I'd suggest our doc protect the tracker tonight and that the tracker follows lemming. See if we can catch the other one tomorrow.

BAD.

This is not endearing you to me.

[Erg0]

Directing power roles is not a good idea. That reads like "please protect the tracker so we can kill the cop".

[Erg0]

oh god i thought you were smarter than that.

it reads protect the tracker because lemming is naive/insane or scum and shouldn't be protected.

Well that depends on the lynch result. If TS is the godfather then Lemming is, in my opinion, a sane cop. The kills last night make no sense if they're opposing scum - one of them would be dead by now.

[Erg0]

and if hes not the gf then lemming is CLEALRY insane/naive or scum.

in which case MY PLAN IS THE RIGHT ONE.

I didn't see an "if" in your original post. Your argument was that they were both scum.

Regardless, don't try to direct the power roles based on hare brained theories. It just makes you look bad.

[Erg0]

I can only assess your post based on the information presented. It looked to me like you were saying the doc should take a gamble on the idea that both TS and Lemming are scum. That's the least likely scenario in my opinion. If TS isn't the GF then that's a different thing, but without that information we shouldn't be telling the doc what to do. In fact, we shouldn't be doing that regardless because it helps the scum to figure out who to kill.

[Erg0]

Yeah, I'm totally making up the "directing power roles" scumtell. That one's never been used before.

[Erg0]

Once you fleshed it out it was fine. As originally presented it was not. I'm going to wait until the lynch and the night results before I assess your actual scumminess.

[Erg0]

Once you fleshed it out it was fine. As originally presented it was not. I'm going to wait until the lynch and the night results before I assess your actual scumminess.

quit dodging the question. Do you think I'm scum? we've been at this now for 3 days, I've hardly hidden or lurked, you should be able to to have formed some sort of idea about my alignment by this point.

I think TS is scum. Everyone else will be reassessed once that's confirmed. You'll have to wait until then, because anything I say now is highly subject to change when I re-read the game after the lynch.

[Erg0]

Can we PLEASE stop directing the power roles? Are we trying to gift wrap the scum's kill?

[Erg0]

Would you like to remove the possibility that the scum will make the wrong move? It cuts both ways.

[Erg0]

Can we please just lynch TS before people start advising the cop and the tracker too?

[Erg0]

oh god i thought you were smarter than that.

it reads protect the tracker because lemming is naive/insane or scum and shouldn't be protected.

Well that depends on the lynch result. If TS is the godfather then Lemming is, in my opinion, a sane cop. The kills last night make no sense if they're opposing scum - one of them would be dead by now.

I disagree. If you were a scum who had counterclaimed the other cop, killing them just makes you look scummier for being alive. However, it's probably a good idea unless you have a backup plan to stop the other "cop" from investigating you (roleblocker, GF, etc). I would not be surprised if one/both of them was a godfather (they both claim to have results, so not a mafia roleblocker).

I'm pretty sure that Lemming's scum group could have taken TS out without much risk, even if she

was

a cop.

[Erg0]

At this point I'm fairly sure that TS isn't a cop.

[Erg0]

and since when has the doctor been out?

Dude, she's baiting you.

[Erg0]

You do realise that we already lynched TS, right?

[Erg0]

Give us some good news, Lemming.

As was mentioned yesterday, it's probably best to only claim your result if it's a guilty. Don't confirm innocents until it's necessary to do so (e.g. they're in danger of being lynched).

[Erg0]

Just for once, I think I actually know why you did that.

I'm probably wrong, though.

[Erg0]

Alt check?

[Erg0]

TS coming up scum lends weight to one of my earlier theories about Zorg - specifically that he FoSed TS early then followed her onto the MoS wagon with weak reasoning.

Vote: Battle Mage

[Erg0]

That's assuming that there is a doctor. The mafia seem to be deliberately avoiding the cop at the moment, so I guess they're making the assumption that there's a doc.

Also, well done ZONEACE on eliminating yourself as the possible doctor with your talk about protections.

[Erg0]

Here's a tip: when one scum has been lynched, a good thing to do is to look at that scum's connections with other players. Voting MoS for defending someone who may or may not be scum is far less productive. Stop being lazy and go read the thread.

[Erg0]

It can be, but I think we have better leads than this to go on.

[Erg0]

I understand where TS is coming from, but it doesn't makes sense to unvote.

I think TS is scum who felt an easy wagon on White and pushed it just a little too hard. However, I still think Zorg is more likely scum than TS. They could easily be scumbuddies, though. I don't remember either of them ever commenting on the other. Scum often forget to comment on each other because they don't want to be associated together.

On your other point, this is a pretty good sign for MoS in my opinion. He followed this up by starting the wagon on her not long afterwards.

Are you seeing what I mean now?

[Erg0]

Sorry, I shouldn't say he started the wagon since he wasn't the first vote - his was the first of the rush that led TS to fakeclaim.

[Erg0]

I guess that for me MoS's behaviour fails on the "do you really think he'd be that stupid" criterion. If there was a case to be made, it's possible that MoS is scum buddying up to a townie, but whatever the reason I can guarantee that his defence of ZONEACE is deliberate and thought-out.

[Erg0]

I don't buy that case on MoS. The most scummy ting there is him raising the multiple cops thing prior to Lemming's claim, and even that is highly dubious as a scumtell since he was, y'know, telling the truth.

Bookitty: To be clear, what is your position on ZONEACE and me? You comment on linkages a lot, but the

meaning

of these linkages is highly reliant on your opinion of all of the players involved.

[Erg0]

I'd like to point out that had i been listened to, our tracker would still be alive.

Quit fishing.

Also, since it's bound to come up at some point: I don't consider MoS's power role direction to be as bad as ZONEACE's.

[Erg0]

I'd like to point out that had i been listened to, our tracker would still be alive.

Quit fishing.

Also, since it's bound to come up at some point: I don't consider MoS's power role direction to be as bad as ZONEACE's.

how the hell was that fishing?

I'm certainly not trying to get anyone to claim. I was pointing out a simple fact. People are trying to claim my "directing powerroles" was scummy and I was just showing that had we listened to my direction we wouldn't be without our tracker.

So you weren't trying to antagonise the doctor into reacting? Because that's what it looks like.

[Erg0]

It wasn't completely useless, but you're correct in saying that it was flawed. Having said that, I didn't see the problem immediately and thought it was a decent idea on the face of it. Based on that, I have to accept that it's possible that MoS just didn't see the problem.

[Erg0]

It wasn't completely useless, but you're correct in saying that it was flawed. Having said that, I didn't see the problem immediately and thought it was a decent idea on the face of it. Based on that, I have to accept that it's possible that MoS just didn't see the problem.

From what I have heard, Is mos not better than making a misjudgement in this manner?

Equally, couldn't it be said that he's better than to attempt such an obvious ploy?

[Erg0]

Interesting theory.

I think it would be good if those not voting BM told us why that is the case.

[Erg0]

Bookitty is only guilty of making a case that I don't agree with (as far as I can see).

BM/Zorg, on the other hand, has consorted with known scum.

[Erg0]

Wrong thread, dude.

[Erg0]

Wrong thread, dude.

Erk. Withdrawn.

[Erg0]

Okay, yeah, JDodge is so awesome it's creepy. But still awesome.

I don't even remember much of the case on Zorg. I remember that there was a point at which you had this fabulously scummy wagon TS started. It had like {TS, Zorg, Flare, Yamahako} at its apex. Just doesn't feel like four scumbags would hop onto you in a row, and I feel worse about both Flare and Yamahako.

For the record, I looked at your post on the Zorg/TS connection (FoSing TS, voting MoS later) and don't think it was very intriguing--he accused her own vote of being WIFOM but joined the wagon for independent reasons. Am I missing anything?

Well, the reasons he

gave

were independent, but he admitted as he voted that he needed to re-read MoS. That seems like a bad postion from which to be joining a wagon, unless he was relying to an extent on the people that voted before him.

JDodge: I could vote Flare, I already explained why I'm not voting Bookitty, and Yamahako has done little to distinguish himself from the other semi-lurkers.

[Erg0]

Point is, he was trying to make it look like he

wasn't

following TS. If he'd said "I agree with TS, vote MoS" then that would be different. Besides which, I had him as scummy on Day 1, the association is just another point against him. You made favourable noises towards the Zorgwagon on day 1, have your feelings changed?

As for the semi-lurkers, Aimee would be one example. Kscope's also been pretty concise in his posts (granted, that's his playstyle). I was actually thinking of Flameaxe when I typed that, though he's dead obviously.

[Erg0]

Bookitty: Also, refer to my post a page or two back.

[Erg0]

Much

better.

Flare was my other guy on day 1 and his lurking now is not improving his standing any. I could wagon him if the BM thing doesn't work out, but I like my vote where it is right now, especially as BM is also doing the lurker thing.

[Erg0]

You just described Flare

and

Zorg/BM.

[Erg0]

Erg0, what do you think about Aimee?

I have a generally favourable impression, informed to an extent by the fact that I was in another game with her and know she's had access issues. Her early play didn't really ring any alarms for me - at least not not to the extent that I would consider her a good lynch right now.

Standard rider: Vote BM!

[Erg0]

Yay, another one voting for the right person!

[Erg0]

Ugh.

Well, I can now say that I've seen a more current game with ZONEACE as scum (ongoing, but he's dead), and it doesn't resemble his play here to any great extent.

Unsurprisingly, BM's post above doesn't float my boat. BM, what do you think of the Yama-wagon?

[Erg0]

The thing I don't like is that you drew the most obvious conclusion. How likely do you think it is that MoS, ZONEACE and I are

all

scum, considering the amount of buddying up that's occurred?

[Erg0]

It's not WIFOM, it's common sense. You need to acknowledge the basis of your theory and argue on those terms. Simply noting that we agree with each other a lot is not a case, you need to explain why it's scummy for us to do so.

[Erg0]

It's not WIFOM, it's common sense. You need to acknowledge the basis of your theory and argue on those terms. Simply noting that we agree with each other a lot is not a case, you need to explain why it's scummy for us to do so.

[Erg0]

Stupid phone.

Rest assured, I'm not blind to MoS's play. I do think the whole ZONEACE thing is a red herring, though - mostly because I don't think ZONEACE is scum.

[Erg0]

I've done some re-reading and I've decided that I'm ok with the Yama wagon. Besides the general lurkiness, his little swipe at TS at the start of day 2 (post 1190) could easily be seen as distancing. Other than that they more or less left each other alone.

I want to lynch BM in the near future, but I have no objection to dealing with this first.

Vote: Yamahako

Lynch -1, time for ze claim.

[Erg0]

Unless I'm mistaken, Elmo was voting for Setael.

[Erg0]

As far as i can see, they have both been on and off voting for Zorg since virtually the start of the game-pausing only to run up alternative mislynches.

Run up alternative mislynches? You mean like when we ran up Toaster Strudel, the mafia godmother? Zeppo is the only mislynch of the game so far, and only MoS was on that wagon - I was opposed to the lynch, based on seeing him play differently as scum in a game I was modding at the time. I wasn't on the White wagon either, and that's the only other situation you could possibly be referring to.

You're just changing the facts to fit your argument now.

[Erg0]

Dangit.

Go town!

[Erg0]

GG scums. I'm glad that the town at least followed through and lynched BM after I died. I'm also glad that my incredibly unsubtle doc breadcrumbs weren't what got me killed. I dislike being the cop or doc because I tend to get NKed a lot for other reasons (see: this game), so I was actually trying a bit of reverse psychology by doing things that no sensible doctor would do (e.g. talking about the doctor a lot). My hope was that the scum would realise that I wasn't dumb enough to give off the classic doc tells, and would dismiss it as me trying to plant a red herring. Based on the scum chatter it seems I may as well not have bothered.

Also, MoS was next on my list if BM came up scum. No townie ever agrees with me that much in the early game, and you were reminding me way too much of Oman's early play as GF in BM's Mystery Mafia. Try not to take that the wrong way.

[Erg0]

You weren't specifically agreeing with me, we just seemed to have the same opinion on a lot of things. I'm fairly sure that at least one person accused us of buddying up on day 2.

The lack of pressure was deliberate. I wanted to see if I was right about Zorg/BM first, to confirm that my instincts were good. Also, this is one of those scumtells that's remarkably accurate but also very difficult to explain to others.

[Erg0]

It did a little, but circumstances were such that there were always other targets ahead of you. Also, the odds of that happening in a mini game are much higher than in a large game.