Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[Yosarian2]

Sorry, everyone, forgot about this game.

It might be a good idea to massclaim before the end of day 1, but I'm not sure why there's this huge rush to do it now. Wouldn't it be more useful to bandwagon a few people to a claim first, make the scummiest people claim first and then see where we go, and then perhaps do a mass claim afterwards?

[Yosarian2]

That defeats the purpose of a mass claim, and it allows scum to have input on who claims first, by possibly pushing the wagons in directions that benefit them. I don't mind if we talk about who's scummy and who's not, but bandwagoning them to a claim is pointless.

Why is that? Generally, I'd think in the long term, we'd get more information from "These 6 people bandwagoned MOS day 1, then he claimed doc, then he was killed by the mafia and so we don't know his role" then we would without the bandwagon. Basically, I don't understand why a random list is better then having scummy looking people claim first via bandwagons; day 1 bandwagons aren't great, perhaps, but I'd like to think they would be at least as good as a random list at finding scum.

Not that it really matters, though. We all claim today, one day or the other, and this game should be fairly easy.

Anyway, after carefully reading through the second mod post, I have

A few questions for the mod about the setup:

1. The town win condition is "you win when all the sporks are dead". Does that include the lyncher?

2. I notice that the mafia win condititon is this:

You win when the Town no longer can win and the Lyncher condition cannot be fulfilled.

So, if the lyncher suceeds, does the mafia lose? I'm a bit confused here. If the lyncher wins, does everyone else lose?

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, there's a couple reasons why bandwagoning to a claim won't work. First off, we already know what roles are in the game, so scum won't be caught in trying to making a believable role. Secondly, anyone caught by a bandwagon will know that they only have to wait until the mass claim begins, and they're basically off the hook until it's their turn. If Guardian and the others hadn't gone so strongly for mass claim from the beginning, maybe we could bandwagon, but not now.

Well, let me put it this way. The big advantage to a bandwagon to a claim is that we get more info that way, from the wagon, then we would by just sitting around and waiting until we mass claim and then lynching one of the people who claim townie.

Scummy people are not always scum, Yos. It is foolish to believe that Day 1 bandwagons are more likely to be *on* scum than subtly manipulated *by* scum, so I don't trust bandwagon claims one bit, in this situation. A mass claim in this manner is the only way to get an unbiased order of claiming, one that scum cannot possibly have any influence on.

Except scum manipulating bandwagons in anti-town ways is kind of how we usually catch scum, right? I want to see how the bandwagons form, how then grow, who joines when, and THEN I want to know everyone's role. Does that make sense?

On another note, I strongly suspect that the lyncher is probably one of the people pushing so hard for an immediate mass claim; mass claiming before the end of the day is probably good pro-town stratagy at this point, but it's also a GREAT way to get a specific townie lynched.

[Yosarian2]

I hate kinetic's play. First he demands a modkill on IH for saying the word "idiot", now he's flipping out? Demanding random people get modkilled is *NOT* a pro-town thing to do.

vote:kinetic

About the mass claim: like I said, I'd rather we discuss things first, but the way I see it, it's likely to give us either 5 or 6 confirmed innocents, depending on if a power role died or not. We don't have many mislynches this game; by my count, worst case scenerio, we could lose after 3 mislynches (less if the vig kills wrong), because if we haven't seen a scum or the lyncher die by then, the scum + lyncher vote together for the lynch target and the town loses, basically putting us into lynch or lose a day early; lyncher votes with the scum in lynch or lose, so we have to treat it like there's a 5 person scum group. So narrowing down the list of probable scum (and lyncher) certanly helps our odds. Like I said, I WOULD like us to vote first, before the claims, because the "lynch random townies plan" dosn't necessarally win it for us either unless we lynch the right townies, and I don't like the way some people (like Guardian) have just randomally started claiming.

[Yosarian2]

Stop. Freaking. Claiming. Right now. At least, until we come to a consensus. Kinetic, you are being a muppet.

QFT

[Yosarian2]

Meh. The timing of that claim was terrible, but it would be silly to lynch a confirmable claim in an open role game.

unvote:Kinetic

for the moment. If you are pro-town, though, you need to understand how much your play is hurting the town at this point, Kinetic.

[Yosarian2]

If you are unwilling to actually do the protown thing and respond to everything, then respond to it I guess.

This statement is BS. I have acted pro-town all game, pushing for the mass claim. Not wanting to fill up 10 more pages with bullshit back and forth is totally pro-town.

That's horrible logic; refusing to even discuss game-stratagy with people you disagree with is hardly pro-town. It dosn't bother me as much for you to do that as it might for other people, because you made the same mistake as a pro-town person in 24 mafia trying to just refuse to discuss things you didn't want to discuss, but you should note how much you doing that didn't help the town that game.

MoS, you still say that only someone who would have something to lose would go against a massclaim, yet you seem to refuse the notion it could actually hurt the town. Thats what I'm saying.

Probably because it

won't

actually hurt the town.[/quote]

Well, it clearly helps the scum in some ways, and therefore hurts the town in some ways; I mean, obv the scum would want to know who the pro-town roles are so they can kill them, and the stratagy you're suggesting (everone mass claims but doc claims townie) does increase the odds of the doc being put in a corner. Now, I would tend to think that a mass claim might help the town a little more then it will hurt it today, but the way you're trying to say that it won't hurt the town at all in any way is just false.

[Yosarian2]

If the Angel is doing it's job, it's randomly protecting one of the vig and cop each night.

...don't say stuff like that, ok? Directing the doc in an open role game where were talking about doing a massclaim=bad. I can think of a few different logical courses of action a doc could take, and this is one thing were it's better if we don't discuss them in thread, both because it's likely to out the doc and because it's likely to help the scum guess what the doc might do.

[Yosarian2]

I'm just going to point something out here, for future reference -- I think it is sometimes good to lie/be deceptive as town in mafia. For example:

Here, I

do

think mass claim pretty much puts us on a really good road towards winning -- but that is harder to convince people of.

However, it is almost trivial to convince people that mass claiming is better than not mass claiming, since mass claiming is quite obviously more beneficial than not mass claiming.

...except that if you say something obveously not true like that, it undermines your entire argument and makes you look scummy as well.

[Yosarian2]

If the priest is offed, the Inspector is either scum or scum want us to think so. We can handle that situation.

Um, the priest is probably about the third most powerful role in the game at this point after the cop and the doc, especally if we're going to mass claim, as the priest can confirm claimed roles as innocents. So I don't think we could read anything like that into the priest getting killed; assuming the doc claims townie, the priest seems a fairly logical target no matter what.

[Yosarian2]

The Priest cannot find scum. He is no threat to them if they don't claim Inspector or Angel.

Well, he can confirm innocents and even confirm the miller as an innocent, so he certanly is a big plus for the town no matter what. I tend to think that in general a cop's main ability is his ability to confirm innocents and that occasionally finding scum is just a minor side benifit.

[Yosarian2]

Another disadvantage to #1 and #2 is that you're telling the vig to fire tonight, which means that, assuming he fires at one of the claimed townies, there's a significant chance that he'll vig the doctor.

Anyway, if we have the doctor and the priest claim townie, then we only get 5 confirmed roles out of the deal. And how does that help us, exactally? So long as we give people a chance to claim before being lynched, there's basically no risk of us ever lynching the mason, the vig, or the govenor anyway, because those roles are completly confirmable and the town would have to be full of idiots to claim a role that confirmable in an open role game. So the only real advantages to any kind of mass claim now are:

1. Somewhat narrows the pool of people for the cop to check tonight.

2. Makes it harder for the scum to claim cop or priest later in the game (unless we tell the priest to claim townie today). There's very little danger of the scum claiming gov, vig, or mason at any time before lynch or lose anyway, as it's so easy to check those roles.

3. A *slightly* improved chance of lynching correctly early game, although I highly doubt that we'd lynch one of the power roles in any case, unless someone was dumb enough to hammer before waiting for a claim.

And the disadvantage is that, once the doc dies, all of our power roles/confirmed pro-town people are toast.

Am I missing something here? I'm really starting to re-think this whole thing. If we get really lucky, and the cop and doc are both still alive, and the cop gets off, say, 3-4 investigations before the scum kill off the doc, a mass claim could win us the game. Otherwise, though, it could hurt us more then help us.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you are assuming that the scum will all claim townie. If they counterclaim any power roles, they can't just start killing them off, because that blows their cover.

Yeah, I'm assuming that in a mass claim the scum claim townie, except perhaps for one who claims the role that got killed, because I have trouble seeing a scum counterclaim a pro-town role on day 1.

And, if they all claim townie, we have 5 power roles confirmed and like 12-15 townies or w/e to sift through for scum, between the Investigator, Vig, and our Lynch.

Well, yes. I mentioned that. Which dosn't really improve our odds of a lynch, but it does somewhat improves the cop's odds of finding scum (or the miller), while also incresing the odds the doc getting nightkilled, vigged, or bandwagoned to a claim.

With your strategy of only having the mason/vig/governor claim when they are about to be lynched, that means that the cop can never give us innocent results, because it can't be believed. We could run hypocop if it weren't for the fact that we have only partial-reveal.

Meh. Scum claim cop so rarely, I'm not that worried about it, and without a mass claim, there's a good chance they'll still be a priest around to check the claim out. Besides, the only limit on the "partial reveal" thing is the scum kills anyway; if someone claims cop and then the scum kill him, it probably means he was telling the truth anyway, unless the scum are running a crazy gambit involving nightkilling one of their own. Either way, I'm not that worried about it.

In any case, if the only advantage to a mass claim is that we can then trust the cop, why not just have the cop claim? What's the use in having the vig or whatever claim today?

[Yosarian2]

Actually, I kinda like Yos' plan too. Except it's a little too late for that now. Oh well.

Meh. Kinetic basically claimed under pressure, which is what I said the gov should do, albiet he do so prematurly. So the only real problem is Guardian's foolish townie claim, and while that's annyoing, I don't think one guy claiming townie is enough to justify a ful mass claim.

[Yosarian2]

Why don't you realize that this game is special, that we HAVE to claim this way or else we will NEVER have any information we can trust. I have already said, YES some of the information do gain from Mass Claim could be wrong, but we gain much more information out of mass claim than we can potentially lose.

Much more info? How much more, exactally?

Is there a reason you're apparently completly ignoring my last two posts, and you're now trying to bully ahead with the mass claim dispite some people being unsure about it?

It is quite simple why Mass Claim helps, and if by now you don't understand that... you must be scum. Plain and simple in my book.

fos:kinetic

. You just can't ignore what everyone else says and then say "if you disagree with me you must be scum". That's horrible and anti-town.

I really don't like the way he's acting here, at all. I think we may need to test his claim soon, with the vig ready to kill him if he can't prove his govenor claim.

[Yosarian2]

Testing the claim before any mass claim is a bad idea. If he is lying, the mass claim will prove that out. And I'm not convinced directing the vig is the way to go, anyway.

No, if he's lying, it probably means the real gov is dead and therefore a mass claim will not prove that out.

[Yosarian2]

No, MOS is correct. With a 50/50 on cop/vig the scum have at best a coin flip arrangement. And since we're forcing them into a corner with Mass Claim they cannot afford a no kill night. If it is like you say they might consider going for the Vig since he only has a 30% chance of being protected. Not so much a coin flip anymore.

No, that's silly. If the mafia had a 50/50 chance of killing the cop, they would definatly take it, I'd think, and keep taking it every night, rather then shoot at the "townies" and thus limit the pool of potential lynches trying to find the doc. It'd be worth it for the scum to take 2 or 3 shots in order to kill the cop, I'd think.

Can we please just stop trying to tell the doc what to do here?

[Yosarian2]

What's the claim order, by the way? Is it my turn to claim yet?

[Yosarian2]

Vanillia townie.

[Yosarian2]

... which means that Zindaras was almost certainly the Lyncher.

That takes the Lyncher element out of the equation.

...um, unless the lyncher is lying. Which he almost certanly would be, as lyncher is basically a scum role for all intents and purposes.

[Yosarian2]

So, Kinetic, now that (I think) everyone's claimed, what were you talking about earlier about a way to confirm yourself without using your ability?

[Yosarian2]

Well I kind of think he wants to know so in case you die the information is not lost with you...

Theoretically, Zindaras could have been the doc, meaning you wouldn't survive the night.

We need to know before the day ends who you targeted and what your result was.

The odds of there not being a doc are quite small, and the odds of the mafia sucessully guessing there's not a doc and shooting at him are much smaller. If he dosn't want to reveal his confirmed innocent right now, he dosn't have to.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, wait a sec...if there's not a doctor, the mafia knows there's not a doctor. Ok, scratch that second part. Still, keepign confirmed innocents secret as long as possible is a useful thing; it's up to the cop to decide when to reveal it.

[Yosarian2]

You assume Shanba survives the night, which if he doesn't his info is then null and void.

Right, and as there's only a 1/18 chance of the scum killing the doc on night 1, there's a 17/18 chance Shanba survives the night unless the doc does something dumb. That's a low enough risk to be worth it, especally as if the doc is dead and the cop dies tonight one single confirmed innocent won't do us all that much good as with no doc he'd just die tommorow night anyway.

[Yosarian2]

The bolded section clearly states "Before the day ends". At that point I thought the day didn't end if I pardoned the lynch. I was wrong, THAT is why I'm very worried now....

So, what was all that talk that there was some way you could confirm yourself without using your ability that you would only tell us about once the massclaim was done?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, we really don't know, IH. Either we've got 5 power roles alive, or 4 power roles and 1 scum pretending to be a power role. Either way, we get the same number of townie claims.

[Yosarian2]

In other news, Yosarian2 is probably scum. Khel I'm thinking might not be. Definitely still want to hear from Gorrad.

unvote vote: Yosarian2

. Read Yos2's posts. He is so scum, I'm not wrong about this . Tar is also a high suspect...

Um, are you ever going to figure out that that dosn't actually work except in scumchat, Guardian?

If you really think I'm scum, make a case against me. At this point, the scummiest looking people in the game (ignoring claims) are in my mind probably you and Kinetic, although since you always looks so scummy it's hard for me to be sure. But I really hate the way you bullied the town, the way you tried to pretend there weren't valid arguments against a no-lynch and then more or less said "well, I only pretended that there weren't valid arguments so that everyone would do what I wanted", and I REALLY hate the premautre townie claim you did before we even decided if we were going to do a mass claim or not.

Now, go ahead and make your case for me being scum. At the moment, the vibes I'm getting from you are not good. That whole elaborate "Oh, the lyncher should come out and claim" bs you were just spouting actually makes me wonder if you are the lyncher, in fact, which would also make sense considering the high-pressure tactics you used to get a mass claim (which, as I pointed out earlier, would tend to make it much, much easier for the lyncher to get a townie lynched.)

[Yosarian2]

Interseting.
A lyncher, who claimed his target (targets are *RARELY* mafia) would clear two people.

His target becomes added to the pool of townies that need to be killed off - and if he is killed off, the lyncher becomes less scum and more neutral. They still win with town, if they want, while not being a target of scum until all other power roles are dead (unlikely to happen before the end of the game)...

So he could help town out a lot by sacrificing his original win condition for a much safer, town-helpful win condition. If he doesn't claim (and claim both parts), he runs a risk of being night killed by the vig, too. Just some thoughts.

Actually, the lyncher's target IS pro-town, not just "rarely mafia", because it actually says so in the lyncher's PM.

[Yosarian2]

If you really think I'm scum, make a case against me.

Why? Whenever I make a case, people say that's scummy and don't buy my case.

The point is, you making a case is how people have a chance to tell if you have pro-town motives or anti-town motives. "I'm not going to tell you what I think because then I'll get lynched" is an incredibly scummy thing to say.

vote:Guardian

Yos2, it is pro-town if the lyncher claims, right? So why are you trying to stop the lyncher from claiming, and finding me suspicious for trying to get the lyncher to claim???

Trying to stop the lyncher from claiming? Look, it would be great if the lyncher claims, but if the lyncher is still alive he's apparently already claimed townie. It would be great if the scum claimed scum as well, but I don't really see it happening.

Hey, if the lyncher claimed lyncher, I'd be as happy as anyone, and I'm certanly not "trying to stop the lyncher from claiming". But you going on and on about that unlikely situation makes me think that you might yourself be the lyncher, trying to distract us with all that stuff while trying to get one of the townies (me) lynched with absoltuly no reason. And if you are the lyncher, you need to die.

Yos2 is scum. I really don't feel like making an argument on Yos2, if that means you want to vote me, I don't really care that much, I am doomed to get mislynched in 90% of the games I'm in anyways.

Dude, you get lynched when you play like scum. If you can't be bothered to play in helpful pro-town ways, like explaining your votes and such, then you can't complain if you get lynched.

[Yosarian2]

IH, Kinetic is TOWN.

Um, we don't know that. Perhaps you do if you're scum, but the rest of us don't.

As you well know, there is fair chance that one of the claimed roles is lying scum who killed the previous holder of that role. Now, a random person with a claimed role is somewhat less likely to be scum then a random person who claimed townie, but Kinetic's been acting so scummy this game that I definatly think there's a fair chance he's scum anyway. I never said I wanted to lynch him today, but we need to test him, and the sooner we do so the smaller the cost of the town missing one lynch is.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I reread Yos' posts, and here's my take:

1. Yos is much more in favor of bandwagoning than mass claim. I can see why he had bandwagoning on the mind, he and I had both just finished a game where town won by bandwagoning.

2. Yos abruptly stops talking about bandwagoning and instead discusses pros and cons of mass claim. This abrupt change is certainly startling, and could be taken as a scumtell, but I think it's just that the game we had finished was pretty long over.

What?

Everyone else was talking about a mass claim. It was the main topic of discussion, so of course I had to weigh in and discuss the pros and cons of bandwagoning.

BTW, which game are you talking about here?

[Yosarian2]

"Case:"

Yos2 is scum because he is playing safely this game. No real scum hunting, and only peripheral ideas about the mass claim. I straight out didn't like the wagoning idea for reasons that someone else explained, and other than that Yos2 just kind of rode along and claimed.

His "OMGUS no case!?!?" vote on me isn't helping me think differently about this, either.

Ok. Thank you, Guardian, that's actually a perfectly reasonable case. It's not entierly true, I was one of the people that started the Kinetic wagon before he claimed, but I suppose I probably have been doing less scumhunting then usual for me.

Truth is, I've been quite time limited and semi-lurker-ish in all my games. In this case, with limited time and such, I've been debating stratagy (which, as your probably know, I could do in my sleep) but haven't really been doing the real comb-though this thread I'd need for really in depth scumhunting; the only people I found especally suspect earlier in the game was Kinetic, and more recently, you. I can explain why I've thought he's suspicious if you want, but I really like the "pardon/vig" plan that's been suggested, and so long as he agrees with that and goes through, we can confirm both of them tonight.

To be clear, my vote against you wasn't based on OMGUS. There were 3 interlocking things that made me think you were a likely suspect to be the lyncher (and note that numerically the lyncher is someone we absoltuly need dead ASAP, almost as much as we need the mafia dead).

1. The scum-looking way you pushed for the mass claim. You could be a town who honestly thought it was so good you were willing to bend logic however much it took to make it happen, or you could be mafia who was trying to get ahead of the curve on that one, but the possibility that fit your actions best have been you might be a lyncher who wanted to make it easier to lynch his townie target (and after a mass claim, getting any specific townie lynched is likely to be really easy). I actually mentioned this possibility a while ago:

On another note, I strongly suspect that the lyncher is probably one of the people pushing so hard for an immediate mass claim; mass claiming before the end of the day is probably good pro-town stratagy at this point, but it's also a GREAT way to get a specific townie lynched.

2. The way that after the mass claim was over, you suddenly started going hard to get a townie (me) lynched without giving any kind of case also fit this "Guardian might be a lyncher" thing perfectly.

3. When I called your lyncher thing BS, I wasn't trying to convince the lyncher not to claim, I was just trying to say that your logic wasn't making much sense to me, that I didn't really expect the lyncher to claim (if he was going to, he probably would have during the initial mass claim), and that all that arm-waving you were doing about the lyncher also seemed to make sense if you trying to convince us you were not the lyncher.

Anyway, now that you've stated a fairly reasonable case against me, argument #2 against you is a bit weaker, and that's a point in your favor.

[Yosarian2]

fwiw, Gorrad and Skruffs might be scum together.

Skruffs claimed "fork" and Gorrad put that down as vanilla town. Pro-town players know there are power-roles that are fork, from reading the Opening Post.

Hmm, interesting. To be fair, he did claim fork and at the same time say "I hope no one's claimed any power roles", which could be read as a vanillia claim. But still, yeah, you are correct, with the wording of his post, Skruffs might have been leaving the door open for a mason or priest claim later with one of those "I didn't like, I am a fork" type double-talk things, while waiting to see who else claimed what. minor

fos

on skruffs for that one.

[Yosarian2]

You haven't read as deeply into this as I have. The fact that you're acting like this is pretty much convinced me you are the scum hiding in our midsts. Khel better come and say directly or I'm going to prove how he is scum and you're in it with him.

Now Khel, start talking now.

...

Hrm, I thought Khel was pretty clear. Ok, you want to get him to absoltuly confirm that yes he did in fact mean what he's already said, I've no problem with that, if you're not 100% clear about what he's trying to say nothing wrong with getting a clarification, but, um, how does that make IH scum?

Is Kinetic making sense to anyone else here?

[Yosarian2]

Yes please -- I've never liked the Kinetic suspicion this game, I am all but certain he's town.

Sure...I'll explain later when I have more time.

I hate this plan and abhor the idea of wasting a lynch just so Kinetic can prove himself.

It dosn't waste a lynch if we have the vig kill the person we were going to lynch, and it confirmed both of them. At most you could say that it "wastes" a vig-kill.

First off -- why do we want to lynch the lyncher?? This is why I'm trying to get the lyncher to claim. Lynching the lyncher is better than lynching a townie, but definitely scum is better. The lyncher doesn't NK, and the town doesn't lose if the lyncher wins.

Numerically, you basically need to consider the lyncher scum, both because we can't expect he'll really help the town find and lynch scum, and more importantly because in lynch or lose he votes with the scum (or, should I say, the scum vote with him), meaning that there's effecivly 5 scum right now for voting purposes and the town instantly loses if we get to less then 11 or 10 people without getting rid of one of them. If we get rid of the lyncher, it buys the town another day, just like getting rid of a scum buys the town another day. Even if the lyncher would become a survivor, that's almost as bad because survivors also vote with the scum in lynch or lose so as to end the game while still alive. So bascially I consider the lyncher scum; perhaps slightly less dangerous then your average mafia goon, but definatly an anti-town role that we need to deal with.

]That isn't accurate. I started gunning hard to get Khel lynched, with you and Gorrad as other options, and then abruptly switched. [slight wifom]And honestly, you think I'd be that obvious as a lyncher?

"Lynch Yos!" "why?" "he's scum"....[/slight wifom]

Heh...well, I pretty much was last time I had a lyncher-like role.

By doing that, you helped convince the lyncher not to claim. Period. If anything, you should have said what a great idea it would be for the lyncher to claim, not to call the logic BS. By doing so you made it less likely the lyncher would claim -- which is bad.

Note I didn't actually attack any of your specific ideas, nor did I attack any of the ideas of other people who wanted the lyncher to claim, because I would be perfectly happy if the lyncher were to claim.

[Yosarian2]

Did I mention that Yosarian2 is an idiot? I mean, c'mon, that was a completely retarded post you made. Think about what you said, and don't do that again.

...what?

[Yosarian2]

He's unwilling to *waste a lynch* to prove himself.

I find that to be PRO-town not anti-town.

It's not wasting a lynch if we have the vig kill the person at night instead. At most, it's wasting a vig kill, and we confirm both the govenor and the vig at the same time in exchange for that. How is that not a good thing?

[Yosarian2]

In other news, I'm still waiting for more people to say whether or not I should claim my mason partner, should I have one. It's hard to give the illusion of whether or not I have one if no one is saying anything about it.

Meh. Dosn't really matter if you do or if you don't, do whatever you think is best. I mean, if I'm reading the mason PM correctly your mason partner isn't a confirmed innocent, right? So, there's no real gain to you revealing him, and there's no real danger to you revealing him.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2, we can lynch AND have the vig kill.

Let me put it this way. In any game, there's a very fine difference between the town getting 1 day 1 kill and the town getting 2 days 1 kills. Because of the limited information the town has, an extra vig kill that early is at least as likely to help the town as hurt the town. In a vacum, sure, it might be slightly more useful to do the vig since we've got some semi-confirmed innocents and thus aren't totally devoid of info, but in practice, we have the chance to either 100% confirm two more innocents here, or to catch one or the other of them as a lying scum, and it costs the town almost nothing, as 1 vig kill this early in the game is worth very little to the town on average. If we wait and confirm them later, the cost of losing a lynch will be much higher then.

If MoS reveals his mason partner, and that partner confirms that MoS was indeed partnered with him, that means that MoS is scum with that person, or MoS is 100% confirmed.

Now, that is true. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but you're right. The only real use of the masonry role is it's ability to confirm itself, and we're probably better off having MOS confirm himself by proving he has the ability ASAP.

Well, not 100% prove, because even if the person MOS targeted is scum, it wouldn't prove anything one way or the other...but meh, at least it'll be a useful data point. Ok, MOS, if you did target someone, you might as well reveal their identity.

[Yosarian2]

...

Um...so...you're now saying you're NOT the doc?

unvote

vote:Khelvaster

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...I didn't have a problem with it when he appeared to be just trying to keep us in a little bit of doubt, but now that he seems to suddenly be explistly saying he's not the doc, after just saying that he was, after saying he was a townie, after saying he was a power role...

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2

, will you provide reasons for Kinetic scum? It is starting to seem like you don't have any and just want him to confirm himself and make a pardon to waste a town lynch .

Um, ok. I've got to say, I'm a little disturbed by you suddenly trying to turn the focus back onto me and/or Kinetic now, after that bizzare post by Khelv, but whatever, I'll be glad to explain. By the way, interesting you ignore the fact that I HAVE given reasons in the past for suspecting Kinetic, all the way back to before he prematurly claimed to a little pressure:

I hate kinetic's play. First he demands a modkill on IH for saying the word "idiot", now he's flipping out? Demanding random people get modkilled is *NOT* a pro-town thing to do. vote:kinetic

Demanding modkills, ESPECALLY in this kind of game before the mass claim, on a random player just because of something silly like that, is INCREDIBLY anti-town. That alone would be more then enough reason to maintain a certain level of suspicion on him and want him to claim.

I also hated the way he called people scummy and voted for them just because they disagreed with his stratagy suggestions, rather then answering them logically. Or worse, when he flipped out emotioanlly and irrationally on IH because he disagreed with his stratagy suggestions. This type of post:

IH. Once more:

YOU'RE WRONG! FACE IT! I ADDRESSED YOUR POINTS AND YOU'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THEM!

SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM DIE SCUM DIE

Vote: IH

Should NEVER be made by a pro-town person who's honestly trying to convince the town to do the right thing, especally as Kinetic had, in fact, NOT adressed all of IH's points.

Also noted are very strong links between Kinetic and Guardian, with Guardian being perhaps the 2nd most scummy "townie" claim right now, also makes me want to confirm Kinetic's alignment.

His whole "The real doc should claim NOW" thing while refusing to explain why is also pretty terrible and irrational, especally as, unless Khel starts making some sense FAST, I don't see that the real doc should need to claim to get him lynched.

Yeah. I'm not interested in lynching Kinetic today, because of his claim, that's the only reason I unvoted him in the first place in fact if you remember; but I really am interested in confirming his claim, ASAP.

On another note, let's not lynch Khel until he has a chance to clarify what the heck he's talking about, k? I voted him because that was an incredibly scummy thing to do, but no reason to rush into anything without hearing from him.

[Yosarian2]

Edit: End of my second paragraph should have said "That alone would be more then enough reason to maintain a certain level of suspicion on him and want him to PROVE HIS claim."

Especally when the cost of him proving his claim is, in my opinion, so low. Of course, I've always been in the school of thought that a good vig is one who in most circumstances shoots perhaps a couple of times a game at most.

[Yosarian2]

so het up?

What?

Never mind. I'm surprised at Coolbot though. It was IH's plan to have the doc claim anyway. No one except me said it was a bad idea. Now that I have a plan that would, in fact, force the doc to claim to find a scum, you think its a bad idea?

Anyway, I was hoping the real doc would claim, but now I'm not so sure its a good idea. :/

Anyway,

Unvote

Khel isn't the play today.

Vote:Yosarian

Yos is.

...wtf?

So, the guy you've been attacking for the last several pages, who just apparently sort-of admitted to lying, you suddenly don't even want answers from anymore, and instead you'd rather vote for me?

[Yosarian2]

Yos2, while I agree that Kinetic is being dumb, I'm nearly 100% sure he is protown. However, I don't really have any suspects to lynch atm, so I'm interested in testing him just because I don't have someone I'm sure is scum yet.

Really? Because from my point of view, if one of the pro-town roles is scum, he's the worst looking one at the moment. Now, I guess one could say that there's only a, what, 6/20 chance of the scum hitting a town power role night 1, so his claim still makes him probably town dispite his scummy behavior, but I can't see considering him 100% town. I would have said that certain other things short of him confirming his claim would make be believe him; the fact that it seems like he might have been right about Khel is definatly a step in that direction...or at least, it would be, if he hadn't just unvoted him and voted me for...why? OMGUS? I donno.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, correction; the mafia wouldn't kill one of their own, and we know they didn't kill the devil, so that makes a 6/15 chance of them killing a power role night 1.

[Yosarian2]

Because, despite evidence he is lying, somewhere, we really don't KNOW if he is the doc or not. Without the real doc counter claiming that is.

The goal, right now, isn't to bandwagon Khev to a lynch. The goal is to increse the pressure on him until he starts making sense. IF he claims doc, then fine, we can work with that, we can figure out if we believe him or not, figure out if we want a counterclaim today or tommorow, ect. If he claims not doc, then we'll want him to explain all the other wierd stuff he's said today, and if he can do that, then we'll see. But at this point, the most likely explination for his posts is that he's scum who made a mistake and is trying to wriggle out of it without absolutly committing himself one way or the other, and so we need to pin him down to some kind of position here before we think about letting him off the hook.

Your "Bandwagon" to claim plan was utterly ludicrous, and was shot down as the scum logic it was immediately. Especially after you enacted your plan on a POWER ROLE that even said he was one.

...what?

My bandwagon to a claim plan would have given the town a lot more info then we have right now. For example, the bandwagon on you, followed by your claim, who voted for you, why they did, how they acted, when you claimed, and how you claimed, give us a lot more information then, say, MOS's claim as part of the mass claim did, and will give us even more once we find out your alignment. My plan would have clearly been better for the town then just having everyone claim, and several people agreed with me on that.

Third, despite Khel doing effectively the same thing, you didn't want to jump on him. I was the ONLY person who was pestering Khel and EVERYONE was againt me for it.

Well, that was my mistake. I believed him. I seem to be believing fake doc claims too often in my current games, I suppose I need to be more suspicious of them in the future. Nonetheless, that dosn't explain why you want to let the pressure up on him NOW.

But MOST of all, I have the Mafia WIFOMing themselves now. Khel very well MIGHT be the doctor. And the mafia don't know. They might know if he is mafia or not, and honestly that would be important. The reason I want the REAL doc to claim now is IF Khel is still alive late game, we don't know if the real doc is dead or not. However, if the real doc claims now, we know one of two things. Khel is either scum, or the real doc. And the person counter claiming him is either scum, or the real doc.

And what do we do? Nothing. It would be insane for the mafia to leave the one alive that is the REAL doc. Their best play would be to kill the doc.

Well, yeah, that goes without saying. However, the key thing is here, we certanly don't want anyone claiming anything unless we can pin Khel down to some solid position here, and even then we might not. So, again, why are you trying to let up the pressure on Khel before making him explain himself here?

[Yosarian2]

I feel the people that are jumping on Khel are the same people, and have the same motivations, as those who jumped on me. I'm going to play the game as I see it, and that includes not going with the

easy

lynch if I don't think its the

right

lynch.

Um...well, I voted for you because you were acting scummy, and I voted for Khel because Khel was acting scummy, so I suppose the statement that "the same people did it for the same reasons" is techniaclly true, although completly meaningless.

[Yosarian2]

I won't make a claim one way or the other.

Way too late for that, buddy. You slipped early and said you were a power role. Then you claimed townie. Then you claimed doc, then you claim to not be the doc.

And Pie's "It would be dumb to lynch anyone who has a decent chance of being the doc today" speech is just idiotic. Every claimed vanillia townie has a decent chance of being the doc, alright? If Khel claims, then we can evaluate what the odds are of him actually being the doc. At this point, we have no freaking clue; he's got a high chance of being a scum trying to talk his way out of a bear trap he's walked into, some small chance of being a townie, and some small chance of being a doc. At this point, the most likely scenerio is that he just does not want to clarify because he's a scum who thinks he'll get lynched if he claimes townie and counter-claimed if he claims doc and is trying to avoid both.

And for the record, since a few people who know better seem to be taking it seriously for God knows what reason, this "wagon" on me is garbage. Pure garbage. Not one person has given a freaking logical reason for it; Guardian voted for me apparently just because I didn't trust Kinetic 100% the way he thought I should, and then the next page said "Oh well, I can understand why people wouldn't trust Kinetic". Kinetic voted me briefly, because I...voted for his main suspect? Until he unvoted me and went back to voting for the person he voted for me for voting for (wow that sentance is a mouthfull). And now Pie is voting for me becuase...I'm the next bandwagon in sequence? What?

[Yosarian2]

And for the record, since a few people who know better seem to be taking it seriously for God knows what reason, this "wagon" on me is garbage. Pure garbage. Not one person has given a freaking logical reason for it;

Guardian voted for me apparently just because I didn't trust Kinetic 100% the way he thought I should

, and then the next page said "Oh well, I can understand why people wouldn't trust Kinetic"

Yos2, you just

lied

.

Yos2 is scum because he is playing safely this game. No real scum hunting, and only peripheral ideas about the mass claim. I straight out didn't like the wagoning idea for reasons that someone else explained, and other than that Yos2 just kind of rode along and claimed.

I also didn't like your reasoning at all on Kinetic, but that is one aspect solely. And even though I can understand why some might not trust him, that is not to say I liked your reasons for trusting him.

Don't try and get people to disregard your wagon out of hand, it isn't utter garbage, and you're scum.

(shrug) That crap about Kinetic was the reason you gave during your most recent vote. I had actually forgotten about your earlier vote about me not scum hunting, and in any case that reason is certanly not relevent anymore, is it?

[Yosarian2]

I had actually forgotten about your earlier vote about me not scum hunting, and in any case that reason is certanly not relevent anymore, is it?

Uh... yeah it DEFINITELY is still relevant.


Your targets:

1) easy wagon on Kinetic
2) OMGUS on me
3) easy wagon on Khelvaster.


I don't see at ALL how this is active scum hunting. You pick up easy and not neccesarily good cases on two other players, two of which are claimed POWER ROLES in and OPEN SETUP, and THEN YOU OMGUS me for being the first to vote for you (you claim this is for not providing reasons)

Um...because it's looking for scum?

I really hate the horrible "Oh, look, he's going for the easy wagon" logic people seem to use a lot. If a person is an "easy wagon", there's usually a damn good reason for them to be wagoned.

And what do you mean "two of which are claimed power roles"? If Khel was simply a claimed power role, I wouldn't be voting for him.

And btw, trying to pretend that the reasons I've suspected you are OMGUS are not making you look any better here, Guardian. I suspect you of being either a mafia member or a lyncher because of the way you've acted; I think there's a very high chance you're a lyncher.

You then go on to straw man me in my reasons for voting you, and claim you forgot.

What crap you're talking here. I said you were voting for me because I wanted to confirm kinetic, I didn't 100% trust him. You spent about 4 posts bitching at me for "not explaining" why I didn't 100% trust Kinetic, and then when I did explain, you didn't even bother to comment on it at all, except to say that you could understand why someone would want to confirm him. So, it seemed to me like that was the main reason you were attacking me, as that was all you were freaking talking about in relation to me. So, how the hell is that "straw-manning you"?

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Yosarian2

As good a lynch as any.

Why is it every time a mass claim happens, everyone in the game suddenly feels like they need to act dumb? MOS, do you really think I'm the scummiest townie around here? Why the hell would you follow Guardian, who's so obveously a lyncher and is giving such bad reasons?

[Yosarian2]

Oh? How much are you willing to bet that Guardian is a lyncher? Stake your life on it? I think you're the lyncher.

Of course I'm not willing to stake my life on it; it's day 1, no way am I going to be that confident about my read on someone. I think it's quite likely that he is a lyncher who wants me dead, however, and if I'm right about that, then getting rid of him both gets rid of an anti-town role and basically confirmes me as a townie. Or, he could be scum. He could even be scum with Kinetic, although perhaps that's too obveous. He just seems so scummy to me.

I'll also point out that if I was the lyncher, I probably would not be supporting the whole "let's pardon whoever we lynch and then vig him instead plan", as that's quite likely to screw the lyncher over in a rather amusing way. In fact, the way Guardian's been opposing that plan even though everyone else, including Kinetic, has agreed with it is another sign he might be the lyncher.

Yos2, calling me
lyncher won't get you anywhere;
you look more like scum!

Speaking in hiku
Not likely to help your case
Or to get me lynched

I said that claiming powerrole followed by a townie claim, given the fact that the doc was told to claim Townie, meant that I was doc. I further said that, however, I *might* just happen to be a townie who actually claimed doc just to make the mafia lose an NK.

When I say I won't make a claim one way or the other, I meant that I would make a Definitive claim one way or the other.

Ok, that makes a little more sense. Part of my brain still thinks you're scum trying to stall your way out of trouble here, but just in case you are telling the truth here, I'm willing to wait a day or perhaps two and see what happens.

unvote:Khelvaster

vote:Guardian

[Yosarian2]

No, it's not that I dislike haiku (especally as my response was in haiku, silly person), I was simply suggesting that you're not going to succed in getting me lynched or in saving yourself just by speaking in haiku. You might want to try something else.

[Yosarian2]

I said that claiming powerrole followed by a townie claim, given the fact that the doc was told to claim Townie, meant that I was doc. I further said that, however, I *might* just happen to be a townie who actually claimed doc just to make the mafia lose an NK.

When I say I won't make a claim one way or the other, I meant that I would make a Definitive claim one way or the other.

Ok, that makes a little more sense. Part of my brain still thinks you're scum trying to stall your way out of trouble here, but just in case you are telling the truth here, I'm willing to wait a day or perhaps two and see what happens.

unvote:Khelvaster

vote:Guardian

What? So let me get this straight: Townie claiming doc to get NKed in this game = good. Townie claiming doc in other games = bad? Umm, no, I'm not going to let this complete change go.

Vote:Yos

No. I unvoted him because I think there's a reasonable chance he's a doc who made some mistakes, gave away his role, and who is now refusing to claim in order to attempt to keep the scum guessing. I don't think it's a good idea, I think at this point it's fairly obveous he's either doc or scum and he might as well just claim, but I don't think we're likely to change his mind at this point by anything short of putting him at -2 to lynch or something, and I'm not willing to take that risk at this point in time, so I unvoted him.

[Yosarian2]

Yea, I made that connection like 10 pages ago, unvoted him, then re-voted him when he actually said he might still claim vanilla townie.

(shrug) Well, I wasn't willing to leap as far ahead as you based on supposition, I suppose. 10 pages ago, I was hoping to get him to commit to a claim. Now, I don't think that's going to happen unless we put more pressure on him then I feel comfertable with. Also, his last post makes a little more sense then, well, anything he's said in ages, and I feel like I have a better idea of where he stands now. Do you have a problem with any of that?

[Yosarian2]

re: MOS:

While he is obvtown, I'd like to point out that this post...

Oh? How much are you willing to bet that Guardian is a lyncher? Stake your life on it? I think you're the lyncher.

...makes no sense. Lynching the lyncher is a bad lynch for the town - it more or less equates to a nolynch.

There are a few exceptions, of course; it's usually good for the town to kill survivors before they side with scum, and given that the lyncher isn't trying to kill scum, he's slightly detrimental to the town. But a lynch not going after scum is a bad one, especially at this point in the game, in my humble opinion.

Disagree. You have to remember, the lyncher basically is a scum. Basically, there are two things a townie has; his vote, and his mind/words to try to find scum with. The lyncher's vote and his mind/words will both be used consistantly for anti-town ends, making him an inherent liability.

You are right that a survivor will side with the scum in lynch or lose; well, obveously so will a lyncher (or should I say, the scum will side with the lyncher, piling on his vote). So mathmatically, we have to act like we're dealing with a scum group of 5 right now, instead of a scum group of 4. Or, in another scenerio, if there were 11 people left and the lyncher were to then sucees in getting his target lynched, then the target dies, the lyncher vanishes, and the scum kills and wins, so that's another way the lyncher could suddenly lose us the game by losing us a day before lynch or lose.

Besides that, if we either lynch or vig the lyncher (and thus find out he's a lyncher, which we wouldn't if the mafia accidently kills him) then we can figure out who his target is, which gives us another confirmed innocent.

Meh. At this point, yes, I would rather lynch a scum then the lyncher. And yes, if the lyncher claims, he is no longer an early-game threat (unless we carelessly put someone at lynch -1) and thus we don't need to lynch him right away. Other then that, though, I'd be nearly as happy finding and lynching the lyncher today as I would be about finding and lynching a mafia goon.

[Yosarian2]

MOS, what the heck are you talking about? I specifically said that if the lyncher claims, we can let him live; in fact, if the lyncher claims, there's a good chance the scum will kill his target making him a survivor, and then there's no reason that town and the survivor can't win together. It would be great if the lyncher claims. If the lyncher does not claim, however, we need to treat him as an anti-town role, find him, and kill him, for the reasons I explained. Stop trying to pretend I'm saying something I'm not, ok?

[Yosarian2]

we're on the same page, then. Earlier, you were saying we should treat the lyncher as anti-town and lynch them, when they can win if they claim today.

That wasn't in response to you, MOS, that was in response to Pie, who said that lynching the lurker would be a "wasted lynch", and Shanba, who called the whole lyncher discussion "distracting". Yes, if the lyncher claims today, then it's possible to win with them as a survivor, and so there's no need to use a lynch on them; if they don't claim, though, then we do need to treat them as anti-town.

[Yosarian2]

...I have trouble taking the "Khel might be a vanillia townie" theory seriously, Coolbot. If he was a vanillia townie trying to draw scum kills, he would NOT have asked for doc protection. I tend to think he's either the doc or a scum.

[Yosarian2]

Right, which is why he should claim. All his refusal to claim is doing is keeping deniability if he's scum.

[Yosarian2]

If he was a vanillia townie trying to draw scum kills, he would NOT have asked for doc protection.

Thank you for that totally vacuous statement.

I am assuming you didn't read what I posted, instead of assuming you deliberately constructed a totally false opinion of me.
I stated quite clearly in my last post that the scum possibly losing their kill was an essential part of what I was trying to do. Giving them the safe route of NKing me after a real doc claim on my part wouldn't have strained scum enough into really needing my lynched. This was a big trap I set up to winnow down the pool of potential scum. This wasn't me claiming doc to draw NK (which is bad policy anyway.)

Well, that would be totally wrong then anyway. It's not the doc's job to try and save some random townie day 2, that hardly helps the town much anyway. It's the doc's job to keep the cop alive, period.

[Yosarian2]

Guardian, not presenting cases is bad play. No one will be convinced to come to your side so long as you're just saying "Person A is scum and Person B is not!" Most of us require some sore of reason to switch votes.

I don't want to give people an easy reason to change their votes. My pushing a Yos2 wagon is an attempt to get people to example Yos2, not for them to vote him without thought. If I'm wrong, I want others to be accountable for this as well. If I am right, I hope the town is wise enough to see it and vote along with me.

So, basically, the reason you're attacking me but not making a case is because you don't want to be held accountable when I come up town, huh?

confirm vote:Guardian

[Yosarian2]

Guardian wanting to quit should not be considered an indicator of alignment. If anything, I feel that he's more likely to do it as town than scum, because he's fed up with people not seeing the obvious. If he was scum, he's obviously not protown, so people who don't believe him shouldn't believe him, since he's scum. That's less reason to get frustrated with the game.

Meh. I'm viewing it as a null tell at this point. I have seen scum under pressure just drop out and ask to get replaced before. I could see it going either way, and in any case, I'm not interested in "rewarding" the behavior by treating it as a town tell.

[Yosarian2]

Meh. You don't want to view it as a town tell because I am such an easy target right now.

Why, should I view you wanting to get replaced as a town tell? Becuase I've seen scum get frustrated and ask to get replaced quite often, especally if they're getting into trouble and are worried they might be hurting their team.

And if you think you're an "easy target" right now, you need to stop and think about why that might be.

[Yosarian2]

FoS: Yos2

You don't know Guardian very well, do you? Just becuase you "seen scum get frustrated and ask to get replaced quite often", that has no bearing on whether or not Guardian would do it. This whole argument from you sounds like bullshit.

Well, unless I've forgotten one, I don't believe I've seen him as scum yet in a forum game. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, Guardian). So I'm not trying to metagame Guardian specifically, because I can't really do that well unless I've seen him as both town and scum, so I'm speaking in general terms; and in general terms, I don't think getting frustrated and asking to be replaced is a tell either way.

[Yosarian2]

I believe it happens slightly more often for town than scum, although not much stock should be put in it either way.

Well, I don't. Thhhbbbppp.

Heh...seriously, it dosn't sound like we're far off from each other here; I think it's about the same odds, you think town might be slightly more likely to but not enough of a difference to put much stock in it. So if we disagree by that small of a margin, why are you FOSing me over it?

And Shanba beat me to the point about how you were wrong about the mathmatics thing, heh.

[Yosarian2]

No, you were all for lynching Guardian, then vigging him, even though if I pardoned him, like MOS said, you have no reason to suspect him.

Um, you know, the possible link between you and guardian is not the only reason to suspect him; it's not even the main reason I suspect him.

[Yosarian2]

try within the last two pages

that's some of it.

Dude, you've NEVER actually made a case against me.

ANd what do you mean "try within the last two pages"? You're voting me because I'm suspicious of Guardian? I've given more reasons for suspecting Guardian then anyone's ever given for suspecting me.

[Yosarian2]

Fos : Gorrad, MOS

(even if one/both are power roles, i don't care, still fossy)
Why so eager to move on? As has been stated before, day one is the most crucial part of this game. TRying to run through it - even if it is taking a long time- leads to a mislynch which begins to tilt things in favor of the scum.

I don't think wanting to move towards a lynch after a game's gone 46 pages is "overly hasty". Seriously, do towns really lynch significantly better from 80 pages day 1's then they do from 20 pages day 1's?

[Yosarian2]

...wow, that wagon is moving fast, isn't it?

I agree that I don't like the self vote, but it dosn't seem to me like it's THAT strong a scumtell that we should just suddenly drop everything else and speedlynch him. It's clearly a bad move, but I don't see why scum are THAT much more likeyl to vote themselves then a town would be.

[Yosarian2]

Pardoning gives the scum an edge in kill ratio. We can worry about that later... Seriously. We don't want to give up any of our (town) kill options. Unless the pardoning can reveal alignment, in which case it's useful.

Well, the pardoning reveals the alignmet of the gov. Not a big fan of worrying about "kill ratio" at this point in the game, especally as a semi-random vig seems likely to kill the doctor.

I would say we should do a random dice roll between all claimed townies, that person gets lynched. Mafia can't push townie lynches, that way.

You do realize that, at this point, if we don't find scum, we could be at lynch or lose in 3 days with no vig kills, or 2 days if the vig kills every night, right? Randomally lynching, or randomally lynching and vigging, most likely leads to a town loss.

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs, DO NOT EVER SAY "I AM NOT THE DOCTOR". That's just terrible. Congrats, you just made it easier for the mafia to kill the real doctor.

[Yosarian2]

I didn't say the vig should choose his action randomly, did I?
I don't remember saying that, and it goes against what I think. I am saying the town lynch should be reduced to the claimed townie, randomly, so that the mafia can't as easily get townies lynched over themselves.

Well, how's the vig supposed to figure out who's scummy if the town is just lynching randomally, anyway?

Random lynches at this point are most likely to lead to a town loss, and they give us no info in the process.

Yosarian - Why would the mafia target the doctor immediately over some of the more important townie roles?

The important townie role is the cop. The cop will not die until the doc does, which means the first priority of the scum will be to get rid of the doc; it always is, when there's a claimed cop in the open. The priest and the vig have some minor usefulness, and the others are just confirmed innocents; the key roles are the cop and the doc.

[Yosarian2]

Here's a scenario - you are a scum,m and town have five power roles, and no way to protect them all. Why is the doctor the most important to get rid of?

The only town power role that really matters, except as a confirmed innocent, is the cop. So long as the doc is alive, the cop will stay alive, and if the cop stays alive too long, the scum's odds of winning go way down. Therefore, the scum need to kill the doc. Clear enough yet?

I just feel that scum can orchestrate townie lynches a lot better/easier if left to their own devices. A random lynch, at least on day one, will not have scum influence behind it. If that seems scummy, sorry.

Fos : Kinetic

DId you read any of my last posts, skruffs? Odds are, random lynchings=town loss. We need informed lynches; and yes, the scum will try to lead the town, but that's ok, that's part of where we get our information from.

[Yosarian2]

I still believe getting both chances at scumz would be more ideal in this situation. We can confirm kinetic anytime.

If you think kinetic should be confirmed, the sooner the better, because any time we want to confirm kinetic it "costs" us a vig kill, and we're better off getting more kills later rather then sooner; in fact, there's always the chance of you being nightkilled, which would mean confirming kinetic would cost us a full lynch, later in the game when we have more info and lynches are much more valuable.

No, the best options are either we confirm Kinetic now, or we decide right now to trust him for the rest of the game. Personally I'd rather we confirm him.

[Yosarian2]

Heh...yeah, we know that YOU do, Guardian.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, by the way, I expect the doc to protect me tonight, if I am not the doc. The mafia is 50/50 between me being doc and me not being doc, and if they think I am not doc, they will 50/50 between vig and cop. That makes 50/25/25, with me being 50%. Make the right choice. Protect me

You know what, screw this.

unvote:Guardian

vote:Khelvaster

. It's becoming increasingly obveous he's a scum.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, I somehow missed that he had been hammered already.

Anyway, yeah, Kinetic really does need to confirm himself now.

Frankly, I'm not a big fan of this Tar lynch at all, and I wouldn't mind if Kinetic pardoned him and Flameaxe vigged someone scummier instead.

[Yosarian2]

Jesus Christ...We aren't wasting a lynch. We are losing a vig kill. Get this through your heads. A cop is more important than a vig--everyone will agree upon that.

No, everyone pretty much disagrees -- in this setup, coping Kinetic is MUCH LESS important than not wasting a town kill.

Um, no, you're pretty much the only one who's been insisting that, Guardian. Finding out Kinetic's alignment once and for all would be quite useful, not the least of reasons being that it might help in figuring out your alignment.

[Yosarian2]

Khel's WIFOM madness only worked if he was killed or there was no kill.

Now I'm just waiting for his promised true day 2 claim.

Agreed. It's also worth noting that IH, who was killed last night and claimed to be the priest, could have told us if Khel was the Angel or not, and while it's always tricky to speculate on the scum's motives, I wonder if they killed him specifically in order to prevent him from finding that out.

[Yosarian2]

No. They killed IH to keep him from confirming Shanba. I think its pretty safe to assume that much.

Eh? Why do you think that?

I mean, if I was IH, I definatly would have checked out khev to see if he really was the doc. Wouldn't you?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not sure if we neccessarally want to force Shanba to claim results today, kinetic. If he's got an innocent, why would you want to force him to reveal it right before we go to night in a situation where it's at least fairly likely there's a living doc?

[Yosarian2]

THE doctor absolutely should not (imo) consider protecting shanba until shanba can prove that he is actually the cop. The vig is a known powerful pro town role and thus more important than any other claimed role. IF shanba proves himself, Then I won't be so adamant about the vig being protected. Scum *really* want to kill the vig. We know that. We don't know anything about the cop, except that he claimed.

...

That's a incredibly scummy post, Skruffs. Trying to tell the doc to not protect the cop? In thread for all to see? Sheesh.

On another note, khelv's final attempt after the lynch to get doc protection really pushed me over the line into thinking he was scum, and he's done nothing since then to change my mind.

[Yosarian2]

kk, guardian, you were right.

Unvote, Vote: Yos

We've got our play for today. That seemed like an incredibly

safe

post to me.

Don't know what the point would be of me making "safe" posts when I'm apparently going to get vigged anyway. And yeah, I haven't said much; there hardly seems to be a point, when everyone just ignores scumtells and everything anyone says for this "lets just ignore everything that's happened and follow the leader to lynch a random townie" crap.

[Yosarian2]

I think both of those two people are idiots. Not really scum. Khelv I'm torn on, but as long as he is alive, if he is scum, the mafia can't kill Shanba, because if Shanba dies, that means Khelv lied about being the doc. So Khelv living for now protects our doc.

That's some pretty convoluted logic there.

[Yosarian2]

Not really. It's pretty straightforward. Khelv is alive, which keeps Shanba alive. For now.

Well, until the scum decide they'd rather sac their scum-mate Khelv to kill the cop. Especally with Khelv's last post, where he made such a big deal of saying the doc should "WIFOM between Shanba and Flame", I think he's getting his excuse ready for why he wasn't protecting SHanba when the scum kill him.

I don't understand why everyone seems so intent on letting Khelv off the hook today. It's certanly not anything he's done...

[Yosarian2]

Yos. What happened to your intense dislike of lurkers? I'd have thought you'd be all over the Scto wagon.

Scto? Who's that supposed to be? Scot you mean?

Eh, I could see lynching scot. Frankly (and yes, I realize the irony of me saying this) any townie at this point is a not unreasonable lynch, and Scot's not done anything to convince me he's pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not really sure about the reason why everyone seems to want to lynch CoolBot today; he seems to be making a lot of sense to me, and it feels like he's just being bandwagoned because he's a claimed townie who's disagreeing with the "semi-confirmed block" on some stratagy questions. Is there more to the case against him then that?

[Yosarian2]

[intone]The cop is not confirmed, the vig is, stop trying to pull protection from the vig[/intone]

vote:Skruffs

for trying to get the cop killed.

[Yosarian2]

Read Yos' sig. He hates lurkers. He regularly lurker hunts. He thinks that scum are often lurkers. Here, Yos has stopped posting. Uhm. Right. He has ignored lurker wagons. It's bizarre.

Meh. It feels like it dosn't really matter what I say, the only people anyone are going to listen to are those who claimed a role, and it dosn't matter what I do, I'm going to get either lynched or vigged, and then still no one will care about what I said or do. This game should be an autowin for the town (unless something dumb happens like Skruffs managing to pull doc protection away from the cop), and that's great, but that also means that I don't really care much about it anymore. Frankly, when a game is as badly broken and unbalanced as this one is, I have trouble getting too excited or feel very proud about the inevatable town win. Let's just lynch someone and get moving.