Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[Guardian]

I am pro-town here.
As such I'm disappointed --
So haiku only.

[Guardian]

I thank our great vig.
Well done. With the devil dead,
mass claim works, maybe?

[Guardian]

Urza, think before
posting. Seriously, a
mass claim may win this.

I will explain why
mass claim works and break my neat
PR, if I must.

vote: Urza.

[Guardian]

Random Vote: Guardian

I think I see why Guardian wishes to mass claim; it forces scum to choose whether to counter a claim now; they'd either limit which people we'd need to look at by fake countering power roles or they'd have to claim townie. Since only they find out the role of whoever they kill, it could help stop them from claiming every power role they off.

On the other hand, it outs all our power roles so that they can pick them off at their leasure. Bad idea.

Yes; but doc won't claim
and we mass claim before the
day ends, not right now.

[Guardian]

If by "doc won't claim"

you mean it claims with the townies

(since one player not claiming wouldn't really help the secrecy bit), that would just mix the doc in with the group we'd be looking at to lynch: the actual townies and all the scum that claim townie, which will probably be most of them.

Also, I don't

see how claiming right before the end of the day as opposed to now would help

; the scum would still know who to target at night and we wouldn't get as much benefit from discussion before day ends.

We make scummiest
claim first; Doc should not claim or
he is killed night one.

[Guardian]

MoS is wise as our
vig is lucky. His reasons
for claim equal mine.


Eh, Kinetic, I am really enjoying the PR, but will drop it upon request. Sometimes I am too verbose in games and imprecise, and haikus are awesome, they will help me be more concentrated, and I didn't get to play in MMM (where you only post in haiku).

I promised myself, though, that if people requested/demanded I would drop the PR, at least for one post or whatnot.

Claiming will help the scum kill power roles. That is its only disadvantage.

It has many advantages:

• The doctor knows who to try and protect.
  
• The vig will know who not to kill, and other power roles will know who to target.
  
• If the scum get past the doctor and get a kill in, we know
  exactly
  what the role was that they hit, instead of leaving us guessing.
  
• We get a few, possibly as many as five, almost
  confirmed
  townies -- and some roles are confirmable upon counterclaim. I think almost all the power roles are as valuable or more valuable as confirmed townie as they are as whatever their ability does. The vigilante and cop are
  possibly
  but not necessarily exceptions.
  
• As Sefer said, this removes the mafia's ability to safe-claim the power roles they kill. If we are lucky and Zindaras was a townie or lyncher, the mafia will be only able to claim townie safely all game if we mass claim now.
  
• Mass claim is especially great with the Devil dead. The Priest is less counter-able, and the Devil can't hunt for specific roles.

I think the benefits greatly outweigh the one cost, and that we should mass claim.

[Guardian]

Why is guardian talking in Haikus?

Guardian, I'm unsure why the mafia just wouldn't claim townie in hope the doc is lynched, with the Vig killing every night, and a townie lynched, how many days could we last? Also the preist is now a limited cop.

Not only that, but if a power role is dead now, the scum have a safe claim, since they are the only ones who know that role.

I use Haikus to
experiment, and for fun.
I agree with MoS....

[Guardian]

Guardian: What if the Mafia

killed

the Doc just now? Wouldn't a mass claim be the absolute worst thing to do right now?

No, and even if so,
the odds of that occurring
aren't significant.

[Guardian]

Hmm, I really don't like mass claims. If a power role is counterclaimed, and the real fork is lynched, won't the scum get away scott free? No one but the mafia will know if the town chose correctly. You'd have to lynch both in order to be sure, and no one wants to lose a power role like that.

-Gorrad

In this setup, lynch

will

reveal the player's role --
your opinion change?

[Guardian]

Kinetic, the more
we wait, the more likely the
scum will kill power .

[Guardian]

Mass claim is a bad idea, especially since scum know the roles of dead and the town doesn't. Since he's pushing it so hard, and the damned haikus,

unvote: Urzassedatives
vote: Guardian

Scum know

one

role now,
but every night we wait one

more

.
Better to act

now

!

[Guardian]

Well Scum know only one role excusively, but the risk of one scum sailing to endgame on that is too high for my tastes.... I disagree strongly with the idea of a massclaim.

I must mention -- if
one power role sails to the
end, we will deal then....

Must I break my love
-ly PR to explain this
to y'all? It's so obv.

[Guardian]

Hmm I see Guardian's point. Mafia have no choice but to claim town if we claim now... If they claim power and they are not dead soon then we know they are false claiming. Even their "safe claim" is useless.

This is exactly why we should mass claim today. I am not particular if it is now or later in the day, but it needs to be done.

That being said I still don't agree with a mass claim. I think we need to target claim at this point and maybe save mass claim for later. If someone claims power then we'll let them slide, but if they don't die we'll need to check them out. And if someone claims vanilla... that's pretty much a insta-hammer...

I disagree for the reasons you yourself laid out....

Guardian, if we did mass claim, who would you choose to claim first?

I would be happy to go first -- no one is particularly scummy yet this day -- and we should do it popcorn style -- I claim, then pick someone to claim. They claim and pick, etc. I will only start it if everyone commits to claiming though.


Gorrad... mass claim = win here, I am like 90% sure of this .

[Guardian]

even if we massclaim, we still have to pick the right town claims to lynch. Assuming the doctor claims town, there will be 10 town claims, 4 of them being scum. 2 out of 5 chance in catching scum. Not good chances there.

Right now the chances
are 4 of 16 -- 1 in 4.
2 in 5 much better.

Plus, there are loads of benefits as I outlined...

[Guardian]

I will spoon feed you guys if needed -- mass claim

is

obviously the right play here, I think. Mass claim loses almost nothing (maybe we lose more fringe power roles, like mason vig and priest) and gains tremendously -- we get a few confirmed townies, narrow down our field of possible scum, and we have a lynch AND a cop investigation every night to try and find scum.

And the scum can't try and nightkill the doc, as they will hit townies most likely, eliminating potential scum. So, assuming the doctor doesn't screw things up terribly, we have confirmed townies, our scum hunting skills, and a unNK able cop.

Mass claim basically screws the scum over in this game. I don't see how we possibly want to not employ it.

[Guardian]

Oh, and until the vig is killed, we have a vig to direct every night, like a bonus lynch. If the scum for some reason don't kill the vig, we can almost outrace the scum -- with a lynch and vig kill every day opposite their one night kill, we can kill off possible scum faster than they can kill confirmed townies.

Mason, Governor, and priest are largely useless besides their claim-ability, in that order. Getting those three players as confirmed townies = win. The cop should and will draw doc protection, the doc will claim town, and the vig is useful... maybe the vig should consider claiming town day one and claiming the truth day two. I'd say not though -- the vig getting killed night one sucks, but being confirmed is great .

Mass claim for the win.


Do you all agree, and I can go back to haiku now?

[Guardian]

Do you all agree, and I can go back to haiku now?

please sweet god, dont

Do you agree with
mass claim? Haiku is an art
form -- very freeing.

[Guardian]

I'm not convinced yet. If the scum don't play ball and end up counter claiming a power role, we'd have to lynch both of them to be sure we get the scum.

So if all three goons do this, we lose our vig, inspector, & priest and leave the GF hiding among the townies

.

First, this would be good
result. Second, why do you give
scum free ideas? Your team?

[Guardian]

EBWOP:

My math sux0rs:
11 claimed townies: 4 townies, 1 miller, 3 goons, 1 angel, 1 mason, 1 godfather
Confirmed Lyncher Target
Confirmed Governor
Confirmed Inspector
Confirmed Priest
Confirmed Lyncher

I find it unlike
-ly that lyncher will tell us
target. But rest good .


Pie, the one dead town
will become two and three etc.
unless we claim now.

Also, pie, when you
oppose mass claim, I can't help
finding it scummy.


Lastly, ALL players:

STOP giving scum advice

on
how to mass claim... RLY!

[Guardian]

IH = pie. Their names are both short. .

[Guardian]

Thank you MoS, seriously -- I was wondering what was up with everyone disagreeing.

First things first -- everyone needs to check in and say they support the mass claim. Some people are yet to post -- it will not do to have 10 people support mass claim and then we get 1/3 of the way through and someone who hasn't showed up yet is up to claim, and they say they never agreed to do this, and the claim is derailed.


Agreed to claim: Guardian, MoS, Kinetic, CKD(?), ---

If you wish to add your name to that list, copy and paste it into your post. We shouldn't start the claim until all have showed up and 12-14 or so have agreed (if a few people refuse to participate at that point, they are likely scum and should be lynched).


As for the claiming process, again, the doctor alone should claim vanilla townie. All other power roles should claim their true power roles. The lyncher should actually claim lyncher -- he will not be lynched until all the mafia are gone -- we wouldn't want to waste time on him. It actually makes sense for the lyncher to claim lyncher -- especially if his target ends up nightkilled, or better yet WAS night-killed -- then he not only is confirmed but can play as pro-town.

The mafia claim... whatever they claim it is bad for them. But

for the love of all that is holy

stop speculating on what the mafia should claim, or what they might claim, or how they could claim this and that! All who have already done so are greatly suspect, telling the mafia how to work around the mass claim is idiocy!


When we get down to claiming, we pick one person to start (I am fine with going first, unless we have someone we find scummy who we want to go first), they claim, and pick the next person to claim. Then they claim and pick next, etc. until all have claimed.

Sounds good?

EBWO preview -- I think I am ok With MoS's way too, it is unbiased and makes sense. Popcorn (my way) makes sense also. Whichever.

[Guardian]

MoS -- your order works.
Once people agree to claim,
we commence claiming!

[Guardian]

mod

: Will the lyncher target and miller be revealed as such upon death? Just wondering.

[Guardian]

Coolbot. There *isn't* a hole in the plan. However, there are ways for scum to play this that will give them a better chance than usual. If we play decently, we'll still win, but there is no reason to make it harder for us by telling the scum how to give themselves a better chance.

This here is truth. There
are optimal plays for scum --
let's not disclose them...

[Guardian]

If the scum are on their game, they don't need us to point it out. I really don't like the way MoS and Guardian are ramming this down our throats by cutting off any debate about

possible

problems with their plans. If they are so confident mass claiming is fool proof, they should let us discuss it and be sure before agree to it.

If we discuss it, we will make it very obvious what the optimal scum play is. It is very likely that some or all of the scum are not currently "on their game". If we point out how to play to their face, they will definitely be on their game....

There are a couple of reasonable things for scum to do in a mass claim situation, some have been brought up, some have not.

Let's

NOT

bring up all the possible things scum could do and analyze the pros and cons of each -- that is such a ridiculously bad idea that I can't believe you are suggesting it.

The more we talk about ways scum can act in a mass claim, the more we help them.

Mass claim is the play here, your reluctance to engage in one and eagerness to discuss

how the scum could do well

in one is noted.

unvote vote: Coolbot

.

[Guardian]

All I'm trying to do is figure is if the mass claim is a good idea or not. I see some potential problems and bring it up. Instead of pointing out my error or changing the plan to take care of the problems, you attack me for helping scum. Don't you see how this is a bit irritating, and doesn't help convince me at all?

Discuss positive/negative
aspects of it generally,
then --

not

scum tactics.

I feel your pain if
you're town -- but scum might treat mass
claim just like you are.

[Guardian]

I fear this mass claim is partly idiocy, especially if you or MoS are scum.

I don't see how mass claim's being good or bad relies on our alignment.

Let me get this straight: you plan may have a hole in it. But we can't bring up because scum might see it? That's ridiculous. If there's a way to screw with any plan, we have to close it up - and we can't do that without discussing it. We can't just assume scum are idiots.

QFT

That isn't true, so how can you QFT it? Scum being able to use mass claim better than town is a legitimate disadvantage -- but we have two options, claim or not claim.

The more we discuss how scum might claim, the worse it is for us. Scum don't have to be idiots for mass claim to work -- we get ~5 confirmed townies no matter how smart the scum are. That is a goal worth striving for.

Coolbot. There *isn't* a hole in the plan. However, there are ways for scum to play this that will give them a better chance than usual. If we play decently, we'll still win, but there is no reason to make it harder for us by telling the scum how to give themselves a better chance.

I don't think so....

True if there were some very unobvious holes, but these are obvious. Keeping silent could possibly doom the town, and we'd be relying that there are only newbie/stupid scum.

Again, no. There is no strategy the scum could use that makes mass claim a better deal for them than for us. There are strategies that make it more even -- so why discuss them?

Your plan relies to much on scum being retarded

Um no.

unvote, vote:Kinetic

Kinetic is scum. He's going along with Guardian and Coolbot with almost no objection, just telling others to shutup, not to mention just wanting the massclaim.

That is a legitimate point. I am not about to follow your vote, but you make sense here at least.

Discuss positive/negative
aspects of it generally,
then -- not scum tactics.

I feel your pain if
you're town -- but scum might treat mass
claim just like you are.

If scum tactics are a negative then it should be discussed by your admission.

Talk about how the scum could claim and what benefits they might reap -- not like godfather claims X, goon 2 and 3 claim Y, and goon 1 claims Z.

Telling the scum a detailed best plan is bad. Discussing how scum might try and thwart us in

very general terms

is OK.


You have some good points, but look at it this way -- the corpse ripping is a huge scum advantage. If we don't mass claim now, and someone claims priest day three, we will have no legitimate idea if they are truly the priest or if they are a member of the scum team that killed the priest. Not mass claiming now basically erodes all credibility of claims in the future, and keeps the town in the dark. Basically, mass claim is a good idea, and NOT mass claiming is a very bad idea.


And CKD, I am using haiku very well, I am offended at your heresy.

[Guardian]

Ok, I still don't like the idea of a mass claim, but Guardian, maybe you can clear this up for me. If the mafia lynched the priest or the inspector, what's to stop the Godfather from going into that spot?

I don't want to explain this fully, but if that is all the mafia do against the mass claim, we are in a very, very good position.

They would be one of the 'confirmed' positions y'all are so keen on, and could 'inspect' the goons, putting them in the clear too. I'm not quite willing to risk the game on that 1/6 chance, especially given what IH has been saying.

Yeah, this is where I don't want to explain this fully for the mafia, but it would not be extremely pro-mafia -- also the mafia had only a 1/7 chance of getting one of these roles, the cop of which is much, much more important.

I agree that CoolBot is quite possibly scum, but I doubt that he and Guardian are in it together at this point. So, I'm going to keep my vote where it is, but keep a

FoS: CoolBot

up. If Guardian isn't, CoolBot is.

-Gorrad

Erm, Firstly, I'm not scum, and I've seen no reasonable case on me. Secondly, why do YOU think CoolBot is scum?

[Guardian]

Two things I want to say, for the record:

1) Gorrad, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm trying to be emphatic. There is a difference -- I want to convince people, not terrorize them, at this point. You haven't seen mean from me .
2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I

will

find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

Mass claim does not guarantee a win, but it is absolutely a good play for the town, and those opposing mass claim repeatedly and antagonistically are scummy. Coolbot, CKD, and Gorrad I get "unsure town" vibes from, but seriously, mass claim is good and supporting it early is town-like. I would not be terribly shocked if MoS

is

scum and is supporting mass claim to look good because of how greatly pro-town and anti-scum mass claim is.

So, especially suspect are those who are taking a "wait and see" stance. There is no reason you need to wait for others to arrive for you to make your decision -- everyone who is like "well, I like it, maybe, but I want to wait before I say anything meaningful" it looks to me like you are waiting to see what your scum buddies think, or if the town sways away from mass claim and you can hop onto that mentality.

[Guardian]

Yeah, Guardian, you're not being mean, just scummy to me .

You haven't really explained WHY, but OK...

I would not be terribly shocked if MoS

is

scum and is supporting mass claim to look good because of how greatly pro-town and anti-scum mass claim is.

I don't like this. If it's so great a strategy, why would a scum support it?

To look pro-town. Think about why scum "bus" their teammates and lynch them -- scum lynch other scum to look townlike because that is what townies do. Similarly, because someone supports this strategy doesn't mean that they are pro-town, they are just doing the pro-town thing.

Sure it would make them seem pro-town, but if it catches them, what's the point?

It doesn't catch them. It gives us a better chance of catching them. Just like busing hurts scum (because they lose a partner) and helps scum by looking townlike by supporting the bus, supporting this strategy hurts scum but makes them look townlike when they support it.

That being said, I do not think MoS is scum at this time. I am just saying I would not be terribly shocked if he was -- this was in response to someone saying that the strategy would somehow become bad if MoS or I were scum -- it would not become a bad strategy, it just would mean that scum supported a good pro-town strategy.

This gives distancing vibes to me. Also, I reread and it seems I was a bit unclear.

Distancing from who? MoS? That is silly. What is unclear?

Guardian, I am by no means CERTAIN you're scum, however, this seems like the position a scum would be setting up, especially if inspector or priest was killed.

If the inspector was killed, that is really unlucky. Even so, it still is better for us us to mass claim.

If the scum killed a townie or lyncher, would they try and set this up? Hell no. We don't know what they killed -- we WILL know what they kill in the future if we mass claim... which really is the whole point.

Also, I think that we should be allowed to point out holes in plans such as this. CoolBot is right that the scum are probably not idiots. If there's a hole, one of them will likely find it and exploit it, and I'd rather we fix the problem than have that happen.

The only potential "holes" scum have are good ONLY IF THEY COMMUNICATE AND WORK TOGETHER. There are multiple strategies scum could use for the mass claim, and if they are all on the same page will they be more successful.

So telling them exactly how they should work together in the mass claim is idiotic. Arguing that we

should

be telling them how to work together in the mass claim is even more idiotic.

Even if the scum were able to communicate and work together and find these "holes", though, mass claim STILL is better for the town, just less good. So, let's not help the scum out, K?


Gorrad, I feel you are just arguing because you got it in your head that mass claim is bad. Stop being difficult for being difficult's sake, mass claim is the play here...

[Guardian]

I feel you are just arguing because you got it in your head that mass claim is bad. Stop being difficult for being difficult's sake, mass claim is the play here...

This is the attitude that's so grating. There are legitimate objections being brought up in regards to the mass claim.

I fell your pain, but we have very strong legitimate objections to discussion your (legitimate?) objections.

Yet it's proponents, instead of addressing the objections, are characterizing the objectors as stubborn idiots or scum sympathizers. If they were really so sure about their plan, they'd be able to convince us instead of just trying to railroad us.

I am not at all interested in talking scum strategy here.

In particular, I haven't seen anyone address why we shouldn't care if scum counter claim a power role. Without being informed of roles after deaths, we'd have to lynch bot the be sure, right?

We are informed with lynches and vig kills. So if a scum counter claims a power role, if we lynch one of them, we know who was telling the truth.

If the vig vigges one of them, we know who was telling the truth.

Lastly, even if the scum NK one of them, we know that either the scum NKed one of their own, or the remaining counter claimer was lying.

If the inspector was killed, that is really unlucky. Even so, it still is better for us us to mass claim.

How so? We'd never lynch him if we follow your plan.

The inspector has to provide us with investigation results every day. If his investigation results are ever proven wrong, we know he is scum. There are several reasons that he cannot provide wrong answers that I can go into if you and others absolutely insist that I must.

[Guardian]

I am not at all interested in talking scum strategy here.

But you're certainly willing to let possible loopholes remain open.

There are no **** loopholes. There are good and bad scum strategies. That is all. What you and others are suggesting is like suggesting that everyone not claim what their result is in Dethy, because the scum can claim in a good way.

We are informed with lynches and vig kills. So if a scum counter claims a power role, if we lynch one of them, we know who was telling the truth.

With regards to lynches, I don't see anything in the rules post that says this is the case. Why do you think that's true?

Because the roles doesn't say that it is NOT the case. I assume that only scum NKs are corpse ripping, as that.. um... makes sense, and is standard.

Why do you think that this is not true?

If his investigation results are ever proven wrong, we know he is scum.

And scum will obligingly give us wrong results? How can we assume this will happen when the Miller is the only result they don't know ahead of time?

If the scum killed the cop, claim cop, and then give us all correct results (as they would pretty much have to do) then that is fine -- even though the cop is scum and we have to deal with lynching him later, we *still* get a real investigation result every day.

And you realize you are worrying about a 1/14 chance, right?...

[Guardian]

Because the roles doesn't say that it is NOT the case. I assume that only scum NKs are corpse ripping, as that.. um... makes sense, and is standard.

Why do you think that this is not true?

Standard? The standard is all roles are given when they die. We already know the game is different from the standard, and assuming the exact way it's different without any evidence seems dangerous to me. And IME, it's usually an all or nothing thing anyway.

It is a mafia corpse ripping game. This means the mafia rip the corpses with their NK, but not otherwise.

mod

, clarify please.

But IME it is obvious that lynched roles will be revealed.

If the scum killed the cop, claim cop, and then give us all correct results (as they would pretty much have to do) then that is fine -- even though the cop is scum and we have to deal with lynching him later, we *still* get a real investigation result every day.

The issue isn't the quality of the results - at least not directly. If I understand your plan correctly, we mechanically lynch the claimed townies one by one.

We will still scum hunt -- just we will know for certain that certain players are definitely town. Knowing for certain that ~1/3 of the players are town = very good thing.

At what point to we decide to lynch the claimed power roles that may or may not be scum?

When the priest/cops reports back that they lied . This assumes mafia counterclaim at all, which they may or may not. I am not going to say which I think is better, and you shouldn't either.

If we wait until all the townies are dead, that leaves a maximum of five players (assuming doc claims town). If one of them are scum, how do we decide? What if the Inspector and Priest are pointing at each other?

Hmm? This sounds like paranoia/reemphasis -- I don't get what further discussion you are trying to spark here.

And don't say that's a long time away and we'll address it when and if we get there. If scum happened to hit the Investigator or Priest, we're pretty much guaranteed to end up there and we should discuss it before sending us down that tract.

If that did happen, it is not as much of a problem as you think it is if they get the inspector. If they get the cop, and the cop never fails to give us a correct result, we will eliminate 2 or 3 scum and be at a point where we think "HMM, maybe the cop is scum".

And you realize you are worrying about a 1/14 chance, right?...

But a real one nonetheless.

Real, but have you ever heard of action state outcome logic? There is a 13/14 chance of not hitting the cop. 1/14 chance of hitting the cop. So, 13/14 times, we benefit greatly, and 1/14 we benefit only a little.

We still benefit no matter what, and it is statistically a much, much better play to claim. Like, say 13/14 we guarantee win, 1/14 we guarantee loss. Which would you pick? It is not nearly as extreme as that, but cop is the only role scum could have killed that would be significantly bad for us, and the chances of that are so bad for scum we should claim assuming that it probably did not happen. Even if it did, somehow, the game is salvageable, but it probably didn't happen.

[Guardian]

Yeah, Coolbot, think A LOT before your next post. If you continue to try and discuss mafia strategy and derail the claim, you are going to look scummy, and if you are town, that hurts the town.

[Guardian]

This is getting really tiresome. You have not convinced me a mass claim is good in all possible cases, yet you are continuing to assert it. I point out where I believe it mght blow up on us and instead of trying to convince me, you attack me as helping scum. Don't you see how this is just a tad frustrating?

Like I said, if you are unconvinced town, I really really feel your pain, and the situation you are in is not a desirable one... If you are scum good acting.

One thing -- google action-state-outcome theory -- if you think mass claim is good in MOST possible cases, you should be supporting it, as it MOST likely will help us.

Other than that, I don't know how to rectify this the best way, I think it is very obviously a good idea to mass claim...

If action-state-outcome doesn't work for you, how about you try setting this game aside for a day or so, then re-reading it with the mindset that you think mass claim probably is a good idea or has the chance to be a good idea, and then see what you think. Maybe you are just locked in a mindset that is hard to let go (I do that sometimes).

[Guardian]

Corpse ripping is not a term familiar to me, so I did some digging around. In the sign up thread, SL defines it thusly:

This is a corpseripping game which means that the role of mafia kills will not be revealed to the town, only to the mafia. The roles of lynched people WILL be revealed however.

This goes a lot in alaying my concerns about the mass claim. Too bad the proponents couldn't just point this out a few pages ago instead of trying to shut down debate.

I explained this as soon as I saw that you brought it up... I didn't explain this "pages ago" because I didn't see it brought up and I guess I had read SL's description and even if I didn't I assumed that was how the gamed worked.

You can't blame me and others for knowing an available to know part of the game setup that you did not know.

[Guardian]

When I first brought out the problem I had with needing to lynch both claimants to a power role, that's when you should've brought up lynched players got their role revealed. It was just that simple.

Oh, lol , that is why you thought that! lol, I thought I said we had three options of what to do there, and explained that lynch would show the role...

But no, had to attack me for helping scum.

Well, you were...

But that's behind us. I understand where you're coming from now, and I'm much more likely to back the plan.

OK, Cool, no more need for discussion. .

[Guardian]

Kinetic, I love how we are friends in this game, and think so similarly . I just said like the exact same thing re: Coolbot, lol...

I am pro-town, and you have strongly hinted you have a power role to claim when it is your turn, which would make you pro-town, but it is just funny considering our last game together... ^_^.

[Guardian]

Now this is when Guardian realizes that it is all an act to get him on my side.... just like I did in the last game. Then I will hide behind him calling me town all game while I try my damn hardest to get him lynched.

OMG, I would hate you so much rofl.

[Guardian]

Hi Pie. Knew you'd support mass claim .

I am in favor of MoS's list in principle, I guess.

I hate how the actual list turned out, with lurkers near the bottom, including Yos2 and SV, but oh well. I would love it even if I claimed first and the list was otherwise completely flipped.

Or if we did popcorn-style .


I think Kinetic highly suggested that he has a confirmable pro-town role, so I am not worried about him atm.

[Guardian]

Unvote: CoolBot

ok then,

vote Urzassedatives

for lurking

ok then, I will

vote: curiouskarmadog

for bandwagoning.

[Guardian]

My reason was false;
pressuring urza is fine
with me. Keep it up .

[Guardian]

My reason was false;
pressuring urza is fine
with me. Keep it up .

Reason is false, sure,
but you still vote none the less.
New reason for vote?

this might be the only way to communicate with him

You hesitate to
talk about mass claim. Fence sit
-ting is scummy too.

[Guardian]

Hmm, I really don't like mass claims. If a power role is counterclaimed, and the real fork is lynched, won't the scum get away scott free? No one but the mafia will know if the town chose correctly. You'd have to lynch both in order to be sure, and no one wants to lose a power role like that.

-Gorrad

In this setup, lynch

will

reveal the player's role --
your opinion change?

CoolBot, why not read
posts before disagreeing
so vehemently?

[Guardian]

If only a few
refuse to claim, we force them
to with threat of lynch.

[Guardian]

already said I will claim if the majority thinks it is a good idea.

Translation: I don't want to claim, but I want to look like town so if they force me I'll do it too.

Yes -- the "bandwagon"
was only what put CK
D over the top.

Even before that,
he deserved a vote. Urza's
defense is noted.

[Guardian]

^Yeah. SV needs to get back on site...

[Guardian]

Shanba, you are first to claim -- go! I have limited access at this time in my life so if you could claim so I could claim...

[Guardian]

I'm going to be V/LA for a few days... week really. I figure the mass claim will take a long time, and that we are definitely doing it.

As you might have suspect, I, the one who greatly pushed for the mass claim, am the....










first vanilla townie to claim. Mass claim basically wins this setup, get on with it gents.

[Guardian]

Start mass claiming plz.

vote: Shamba

. You are next. Claim
or die. Mass claim wins.

[Guardian]

Let me explain.

I think mass claiming is obvious and extremely pro-town. I don't know how I'll stomach playing this game without a mass claim day one. I think this has been discussed and explained conclusively. Also, I've already claimed, so I'll be hella pissed if we don't end up claiming.

So get on with it.

[Guardian]

I don't have time or patience to go over why mass claim is much preferable to not mass claim for the Nth time. Someone else do the honors please.

[Guardian]

You're not getting something new from me until a) after mass claim or b) about a week from now. This game needs more mass claim.

[Guardian]

wtf? I suggested mass claim and have explained it like 6 times. You can't be more useful than that in this setup.

btw, I'd be voting Urza if I hadn't decided to use my vote to prod those next in line to claim.

Urza's play has been really bad if he's town, and I think he's scum.

[Guardian]

I know what you mean SL, it's almost as bad as the lack of mass claiming.

[Guardian]

Why do you think Urza is scum?

Cuz his role pm said scum.

Eh, many reasons. Too jumpy. Bad cases. Opposes mass claim.

Also Guardian you have explained why you think it's good, but you have also almost universally refused to talk the negatives, saying only that if we talk to much it only helps the scum.

Bullshit. I have refused to talk about specific scum tactics. Which all palyers should do. I have talked about any negatives to the extent possible without doing the above.

When I point out it only helps the scum if we put all our faith in the massclaim, you have generally ignored me.

Mass claim helps us, it doesn't win the game for us. But that isn't a reason to not do it...

You have also generally ignored me saying that generalities are also extremely dangerous.

What is that supoosed to mean?

pretty much you've been singlemindedly pushing for a massclaim and nothing else.

Well yeah, cuz mass claim needs to happen, and soon.

Once again, you've also ignored everyone supporting it except for me pretty much. If anything were to make you wary you'd think that would.

Bullshit. I've went back and forth with a couple players on mass claim. wtf.

[Guardian]

I called you A name. Quit being stupid. If you proceed to continue to not understand me I will proceed to calling you worse names.

Wait.... So the way YOU address HIS argument is to refute it by calling him an idiot... and threatening to do so again???

I don't think I can top "you're what happens when two cousins breed" but I might try.

O.O

I don't understand why you think only scum would oppose a mass claim. Or do you think I'm a naive newbie? Do you not recognize the falsity of this statement? Especially with everyone pretty much supporting a mass claim? Clearly the scum are hiding in the supporters.

Scum would try and oppose a mass claim... because it hurts the scum...

Coolbot I can see. Urza, you, less so.


Being mean = anti-town, btw. So cut it out and play nice .

[Guardian]

Yeah uh, play nice, or um, do that. .

Sleep soon. Have fun you two lovebirds.

[Guardian]

You also forget that claims become useless after today, as it is to dangerous to trust claims with more than two unconfirmeds.

This is why we mass claim.

If we don't claim today, not only do we not get all the confirmed innocents and stuff, NO CLAIMS ARE TRUSTABLE FOR THE REMAINED OF THE GAME.


I propose that among the dissenters, you choose on to make one post outlining all your concerns about mass claim, and that I'll respond to it. One person, one post, one response. I can't be arsed to go back and answer everyone's picky nit by nit point, but I think I'm up to answering one summary post.

Mass claim is obviously the way to go.

I can't believe we aren't half done mass claiming yet.


@All not trusting Kinetic -- he has said that he was confirmable all game, and no shit, he is. We should test him today -- after we lynch our #1 suspect, ask him to save them, and then we lynch them again. If Kinetic fails to save them, he's scum.

Scum claiming governor would be ridiculously bad play. You can disagree with Kinetic, but this is exactly why mass claim is great -- he is confirmed town.

...

[Guardian]

Oh. wtf.

[Guardian]

ebwop: Kinetic is still all but confirmed in my eyes.

[Guardian]

IH, urza, do you accept Shanba's post 314 as THE ONE post I should reply to? I am not interested in 10 more pages of back in forth. If both urza and IH accept Shanba's post, I will reply to it in detail and then hopefully we can get off our asses and mass claim.

[Guardian]

If you are unwilling to actually do the protown thing and respond to everything, then respond to it I guess.

This statement is BS. I have acted pro-town all game, pushing for the mass claim. Not wanting to fill up 10 more pages with bullshit back and forth is totally pro-town.

MoS, you still say that only someone who would have something to lose would go against a massclaim, yet you seem to refuse the notion it could actually hurt the town. Thats what I'm saying.

Probably because it

won't

actually hurt the town.

[Guardian]

Vote: CoolBot

You are trying to WIFOM the doc into not touching a vig or cop, and thus giving scum a 100% chance. Nice try. I suggest the doc stay with vig/cop, and 50/50 with scum. Any suggestion to the contrary is just crazy talk.

Did you read his post? Isn'the suggesting exactly what you say he should be suggesting?

This town is incredibly frustrating.

Does anyone disagree that mass claim helps us more than hurts us as long as the scum didn't hit the cop?

That seems to be the main attack other than "ooh, our power roles will die".

Our cop and angel will be very unlikely to die -- and that is what matters. And we get many confirmed innocents and narrow the field for scum hunting.

I may get around to doing the big list of pros/cons as shanba suggested if Urza agrees that me doing that and only that is an agreeable way to resolve this. I am making one more well thought out detailed post about mass claiming.

It should have happened many pages ago, and waiting and waiting and drowning in this sea of paranoia and badlogic sucks, a lot.

[Guardian]

Despite my best hopes to the contrary, we seem to be continuing to waddle through paranoia and badlogic.

I am having a hard time responding to all these complaints because imo they are so unreasonable and mass claim is so obviously the right thing to be doing here.

It's as if we were arguing whether or not to buy some soda, and I am saying "yeah, we are thirsty, let's buy soda", and you all are saying "no, the soda might have a hidden bomb in it that will explode and kill us. also, we are not thirsty. and even if we were soda is not the answer."

This translates into me saying: "yeah, we want confirmed innocents and reliable claims so we know what the actual roles are in this game in the future. Let's not let the mafia's corpse ripping thing own us in the middle/endgame." You all are saying: "No, let's not have confirmed innocents. Confirmed innocents is actually bad for the town, since the scum can kill them. And they are such useful roles, like a mason that can talk at night (bullshit, completely not useful) and a governor that can stop a town majority lynch and end day (if you think that is a good pro-town role to use, ever, you are an idiot). Too, the cop could be killed, if the cop is dead or the doc has been killed already! (1/7 chance, complete paranoia, and if the doc and cop are NOT night one dead, the scum can never doc hunt nor cop hunt -- cop hunting will result in a no kill, and doc hunting, if they miss, results in less unconfirmed townies. Also, if we mass claim, we get the cop results RIGHT NOW -- which leads to even more confirmed innocents). Also, we don't want reliable claims in the future. We can just not mass claim now, and claims will be reliable later (this is wrong and thinking it isn't is complete bullshit). We can just play this game and win without claiming. So let's do that ."

Not mass claiming is idiocy.

[Guardian]

Guardian seems to have changed his tune from the massclaim being an almost autowin for it being better with future information.

I'm just going to point something out here, for future reference -- I think it is sometimes good to lie/be deceptive as town in mafia. For example:

Here, I

do

think mass claim pretty much puts us on a really good road towards winning -- but that is harder to convince people of.

However, it is almost trivial to convince people that mass claiming is better than not mass claiming, since mass claiming is quite obviously more beneficial than not mass claiming.

[Guardian]

I have read your posts, and I see no reasonable scenario where mass claim "FLAT OUT LOSES THE GAME".

Even if the doc was killed, and our power roles all start dying, we know the power roles are power roles and have a smaller group of people to target, and we can't possibly mislynch a power role.

Even if the cop was killed, we will know or the fake-scum-cop will have to provide us faked results every day that we will be able to interpret.

Mass claim doesn't lose and very often wins greatly.

[Guardian]

the priest is offed, the Inspector is either scum or scum want us to think so. We can handle that situation. And I already addressed what happens if the Priest is lying: after we lynch the Inspector, we learn the Priest lied, so we lynch him or the vig offs him.

Untrue. If the scum has killed someone else, and the priest doesn't survive the night, we have an unconfirmed inspector. So what do we do? Assume he's telling the truth and risk scum feeding us false investigations? (which will be true as he knows everyones alignements)

Yes, until proven otherwise -- mass claim is so good for town if the inspector was not night killed, that it is worth making this assumption -- it is not like it "AUTO LOSES". If we figure out he is lying, we can lynch him later, but for the time being we assume the scum weren't lucky bastards.

[Guardian]

If the inspector after like 4/5 days doesn't get us a guilty, he is either really shitty as an inspector, or we should be very suspicious of him.

I would be willing to bet my mafia career that the inspector is not dead. Basing all opposition to this on the inspector being dead is silly.

[Guardian]

I'm just going to point something out here, for future reference -- I think it is sometimes good to lie/be deceptive as town in mafia. For example:

Here, I

do

think mass claim pretty much puts us on a really good road towards winning -- but that is harder to convince people of.

However, it is almost trivial to convince people that mass claiming is better than not mass claiming, since mass claiming is quite obviously more beneficial than not mass claiming.

...except that if you say something obveously not true like that, it undermines your entire argument and makes you look scummy as well.

This is exactly what I mean -- I pointed this out here for meta-reasons -- concerning this game alone, I probably should have not said that I think that, because, in general, it is better for me to

have lied

and not said that I believed that.

Make sense?

[Guardian]

The original supporters of the mass claim and Coolbot are generally making me nervous. The attitude. The steadfast tenacity, and general unwillingness to actually want to discuss any negative effects...

I've been willing (if not available) to discuss all negative effects beside specific scum tactics, so your generalization is very unfounded.

Secondly, why is it scummy to steadfastly and tenaciously support what I believe to be a very pro-town strategy?? Explain that.

[Guardian]

Ok. An example guardian. How you said mentioned you were only going to respond to one post, which was Shanba's.

Which I didn't follow through on at all, when it became apparent that you and others were (quite ridiculously imo) going to try and point this out as a scum-tell. That is a BS example as that was something of an idle threat to try and for goodness sakes to get this argument over with and get mass claim started.

I also say it is slightly scummy because you've been willing to talk about it to an extent, but it seemed that you had NO room for people who opposed it. You automatically seemed to assume that anyone not agreeing was scummy.

You are. Mass claim is the best strategy, opposing it so hard for so long is anti-town.

In other words, you wanted to jump in without any discussion. Without the possibility of any negatives. I do not find that to be a protown action myself.

I was willing to wait a bit for people who had some doubts -- like Coolbot. But to be still disagreeing...?

[Guardian]

Do you support mass claim?

[Guardian]

If a small minority refuses to mass claim, we lynch them. They are scum, or very, very wrong. It is that simple.

Partial mass claim will not happen, full mass claim will.

[Guardian]

unvote vote: IH

[Guardian]

Unvote Vote IH

I'm sorry, his resistance is beyond scummy.

seems to me that he is fighting a losing battle...wouldnt scum just try to fit in?

wifom.

[Guardian]

Plus despite what you're saying CKD, if IH

does

derail the Mass Claim, no matter how scummy it makes him personally look, the entire scum group wins. Lynching one scum but letting the other three hide is a huge advantage when you can't trust the cop on Day 2 to still be the cop, even more so in this game than in others.

Wow, that's actually true.

unvote

.

I do not support the day ending or anyone being lynched until mass claim happens, or until a small group of people refuse to mass claim, and we lynch them.

[Guardian]

I agree that option two is better, upon reflection.

[Guardian]

[Guardian]

Ok, I think we should massclaim (though I'm still waiting for Guardian to respond to my post.) I like option 2, as it limits the options for the scum quite a bit. However, I would say that vig should not kill. The danger of hitting the priest or doc and the fact that misvigging loses us lynches I don't like one bit.

What post? That we claimed too early? I assumed we were going to mass claim (and we ARE going to mass claim) so I went one spot early to jump start the process. ...?

The vig should kill -- if he hits the priest or doc, at least we will all KNOW he hit the priest and/or doc, and he will be trying to hit scum. Removing people who are not-confirmed innocents while we have like 4/5 confirmed innocents is definitely a good thing. Vig should definitely vig someone tonight.

However, I am still waiting from confirmation from Khel and Haut Boy/replacement (he really needs replacing) that they will go through with the claim before claiming.

Why? If Khel and Haut Boy both refuse to claim, we make them claim. We definitely have enough of a majority to start mass claiming now.

[Guardian]

Also, I don't like the fact that it would basically force our d1 lynch somewhere in order to cover our arses.

It would force our d1 wagon somewhere. If after being wagoned to -2 they didn't claim, and they were town, they are idiots.

[Guardian]

IH is scummy --
mass claim is obvious at
this point. Let's go guys...

[Guardian]

Claim your role only;
do not claim any results
until all claim roles.

[Guardian]

Fireaxe, Gorrad,
and Sefer: you three are the
next up for claiming.

[Guardian]

CoolBot: Has not Claimed yet.
IH: Mafia Has not Claimed yet.
Mastermind of Sin: Has not Claimed yet.

[Guardian]

MoS, Pie, Tar, go.

Then Yos, haut, CKD.

[Guardian]

I've PMed SL
about Haut Boy... continue
on with claiming now...

[Guardian]

Skruffs, I am pushing
mass claim -- the scum "corpse ripping"
necessitates it.

[Guardian]

fos: guardian
Using scum's actions to force a mass claim is very fishy.

Lol, read the game.

I hope nobody has claimed any power roles, that would be stupid.

ROFL, read the game.

[Guardian]

Okay, so I am starting to see how this game works. I was giong to question why anyone would assume Zindaras was murdered, considering it only said he disappeared, but the role is known only to mafia. Okay.

I can't see where Guardian - after pushing since his very first post for a mass claim - has claimed himself. Maybe I missed it? I would suggest that he be lynched at the end of the mass claiming, unless an obvious target becomes available.

With 5 anti-town (tops) vs 11 town, we could have, tops, 5 or 6 cleared people day one. If we get the maximum number of cleared people bared: 5 or 6, then both the doctor and the vig (if they are still alive and they are in the game) will be vulnerable. The game becomes 50/50, as the anti-town picks off power roles. One or two mislynches by town ends the game, possibly in even shorter time with bad shots from the vig.

Did you *really* think about this before you suggested it, Guardian? The benefits seem to be far outweighed by the risks...

If we don't claim now, we can never trust any claims in the future, ever.

This, and his own non-claiming, makes me very, very suspicious of Guardian.

I claimed, I went first, in fact.

[Guardian]

Let's wait for the last few to claim, then all these things are good and important to discuss .

Angel, claim townie if you haven't claimed. We can argue if you should claim angel afterwards, but I really think it is better for you not to claim.

[Guardian]

Shanba: Inspector
Guardian: Vanilla
scotmany12: Townie
Flameaxe: Vig
Gorrad: Townie
Sefer: Townie
Khelvaster: Townie
CoolBot: Townie
IH: Priest
Mastermind of Sin: Mason
Kinetic: Governor
Pie_is_good: Has not Claimed yet.
Tarhalindur: Townie.
Yosarian2: Has not Claimed yet.
Haut Boy: Townie -- Gorrad put this... I missed Skruffs claiming.
curiouskarmadog: Townie.


Yos2, pie, Skruffs, claim.

[Guardian]

I'm a fork. I wish I was Bjork, though, that would be cool.
But I'm a fork.

Three of the power roles say that the player is a fork.

[Guardian]

If I were lyncher, I'd claim. Town has no incentive to lynch the lyncher, and scum has no incentive to NK the lyncher.

[Guardian]

Lyncher FYI -- your role makes you practically unlynchable if you claim it now.

However, if you are near lynch and claim later, now way can we believe that you aren't scum.

Obviously you won't claim your target, but if you die, you lose. Claiming as lyncher actually makes sense, and I highly encourage it, as it will gives us another confirmed non-vanilla and help us find the mafia hiding among the vanillas.


Also, in some order, probably Priest-Mason-Inspector, night action people need to claim your targets, if any.

[Guardian]

IH did what I meant. I may have been unclear.

I want MoS to claim if he asked someone to be buddies with him who is still alive -- that way they can confirm that he did so, and MoS is 100% confirmed.

I want Shanba to claim who he targeted last night and what the result is, so we can draw info from that.



I do not advocate IH or Shanba saying who they will be targeting to night.

I could go one way or the other with Flameaxe and MoS.

[Guardian]

Guardian, who do you think Shanba and I are targetting tonight?

??? You should probably target Shanba, Shanba I dunno.

[Guardian]

Well I kind of think he wants to know so in case you die the information is not lost with you...

Theoretically, Zindaras could have been the doc, meaning you wouldn't survive the night.

We need to know before the day ends who you targeted and what your result was.

[Guardian]

Also, what if Zindaras was the inspector, and Shanba is scum.... Shanba not revealing info is a really bad decision:

a) He could be NKed
b) He could be scum
c) This is uninformed minority vs. informed majority. The scum already know who is innocent and guilty. Shanba has further info in this area that will help us find scum. There is very little reason for Shanba not to share that info with the town.

[Guardian]

Keeping innocents hidden is good because it means the scum can't systematically kill my cleared players, meaning more of them can survive to endgame (where they're more useful).

If you have an innocent result on a power role, then I agree, keep it to yourself.

But if you have an "innocent" result on a vanilla, the scum-NKing them is really not that bad of a deal.

You dying or you being scum are my two main worries.



Also,

vote: Khelvaster

. I think he's scum. Gorrad and Yosarian2 I also think are good candidates.

As likely as not there are 4 scum among 9 (10?) claimed townies, so let's get to this.

[Guardian]

how many times is a Day 1 lynch a strong one?

Not often. But

I find it's unlikely kinetic is lying and don't want to throw away a lynch if we don't have to

.

I also don't think scum have much to worry about from kinetic. He can stop a lynch, but that can help as well as harm them.

qft.

[Guardian]

Of the 5 power roles, I only have significant doubt about Shanba, and even that is slight.

Kinetic, seriously, IH is town. IH, seriously, Kinetic is town.

If you two believe that, and that is my one (well, besides getting the mass claim rolling) contribution to the game, I will be somewhat happy.




We really need to focus attention on the claimed townies.


Re: the doc being killed -- if the scum start NKing the claimed townies, we are really OK with that. It is not very likely they NKed the doc N0, and unless they decide NOT to pick off our power roles, the doc will be safe from being scum killed.

Personally, I think we should very blatantly give flameaxe suggestions on who to kill. Ultimately, it is his decision, but (no offense) I trust the collective judgment of the town moreso than I trust flame's.


MoS, why do you find Khelv townlike? I can agree with your Gorrad suspicion, though.


There are some important game theory issues to deal with, but scum-hunting right now, at... PAGE 25... would be nice.

[Guardian]

Wasting the Day 1 lynch is a very bad move. We need a good reason to do so, and simply confirming Kinetic isn't good enough. We can confirm hin any time in the future, not just this day. We should be hunting scum.

It seems IH and CDK are the ones pushing the hardest to burn the Governor's ability and get through day 1 without a lynch. We shouldn't lynch IH yet, since he probably can confirm Shanba. But CDK looks like a good lynch to me.

qft.

except that I don't particularly think CKD is a great lynch. Could be, but I don't think so. Why CKD, just his governor claiming thing?

Gorrad I could go with, and again, I think Khel's actions this game fit into a scum-motivated view.

[Guardian]

Gorrad, I know you count gut feelings as minor evidence, but from my count 4 or so people have pretty strong gut feelings about you being scum.

So give us your suspicions, do something significant, etc.

[Guardian]

for the record (cuz I might forget): Kinetic, in theory, Governor is an ability that should never be used.

unless you are like 100% someone being lynched is town, and you really, really need to prove yourself, pardoning a lynch usually is a bad decision. search through mafia discussion if I am not to be believed.

obligatory

fos: tar

, scum self vote more often than town do, in my experience...

anyone less of a lazy ass like me and want to build a case on Khel? ;D Yos2 is probably scum also. That statement is true regardless of the game he is in.

[Guardian]

Lyncher, seriously, claim.

You lynching your target

does not

make the town lose. So, the town has 0 incentive to lynch you or kill you, and knowing you to be not mafia helps us in finding the mafia.

You claiming TODAY will help you -- it will PREVENT us from lynching you. However, if you do not claim TODAY before being pressured, we can do nothing but assume that if someone claims lyncher then they are mafia gambiting.



In other news, Yosarian2 is probably scum. Khel I'm thinking might not be. Definitely still want to hear from Gorrad.

unvote vote: Yosarian2

. Read Yos2's posts. He is so scum, I'm not wrong about this . Tar is also a high suspect...

[Guardian]

anyone less of a lazy ass like me and want to build a case on Khel?

Ummmm......yeah.

Vote: Guardian

Guardian is hiding behind someone else to try and put a case on me. Tell me how that isn't scummy? If he thought I was scum and he was town, he would make a case against me. He wouldn't ask someone else to make a case.

a) Why? I am lazy in the extreme .

b) I no longer think you are scum.

In other news, Yosarian2 is probably scum. Khel I'm thinking might not be. Definitely still want to hear from Gorrad.

unvote vote: Yosarian2

. Read Yos2's posts. He is so scum, I'm not wrong about this . Tar is also a high suspect...

Um, are you ever going to figure out that that dosn't actually work except in scumchat, Guardian?

I will make it work .

If you really think I'm scum, make a case against me.

Why? Whenever I make a case, people say that's scummy and don't buy my case. I am emulating Sarcastro .

At this point, the scummiest looking people in the game (ignoring claims) are in my mind probably you and Kinetic, although since you always looks so scummy it's hard for me to be sure.

lies.

But I really hate the way you bullied the town, the way you tried to pretend there weren't valid arguments against a no-lynch and then more or less said "well, I only pretended that there weren't valid arguments so that everyone would do what I wanted", and I REALLY hate the premautre townie claim you did before we even decided if we were going to do a mass claim or not.

I bullied the town into doing something pro-town. Saying that is anti-town makes no sense.

I thought we *had* decided to claim. We had like 13 in favor or more, definitely a majority, and I was second on the claim list and thought Shanba was about to claim, so I claimed since I was going to be busy that evening. I didn't think my claim was premature.

Now, go ahead and make your case for me being scum.

Cases are scummy.

At the moment, the vibes I'm getting from you are not good. That whole elaborate "Oh, the lyncher should come out and claim" bs you were just spouting actually makes me wonder if you are the lyncher, in fact, which would also make sense considering the high-pressure tactics you used to get a mass claim (which, as I pointed out earlier, would tend to make it much, much easier for the lyncher to get a townie lynched.)

Yos2, it is pro-town if the lyncher claims, right? So why are you trying to stop the lyncher from claiming, and finding me suspicious for trying to get the lyncher to claim???

Seriously. Why?????


Yos2 is scum. I really don't feel like making an argument on Yos2, if that means you want to vote me, I don't really care that much, I am doomed to get mislynched in 90% of the games I'm in anyways.

15. Guardian- Ok, so you've orchestrated a huge pro-town deal. Doing that is bound to put you in a spot where very few think you to be scum. Now that the claim's done, you're accusing several people without making cases, abusing the influential position mass claim has put you in, which is an extremely scummy thing to do.

I would act this way anyways. Getting the town to mass claim has passed, now I am scum hunting. The more I play, the less I am a fan of cases.

[Guardian]

ps: I'd also be up for a Gorrad lynch.

The top 4/5 of his claimed top suspects are power roles, of which at most 1 is scum.

5 claimed townies, however, he "had no read on".



Gorrad, re-read Yos2 specifically and tell us what you think. He's probably your scum buddy.

[Guardian]

IH, Kinetic is TOWN. Look elsewhere. You are town also, stop trying to get suspicion on Kinetic, it doesn't make any sense.

We need to lynch a claimed townie today. No one else, period.

Kinetic shouldn't pardon the lynch unless he is 99% sure someone is town. The info gained from the lynch and removing a claimed townie is much much more important than confirming Kinetic at this time.


If Kinetic is scum, all the other power roles aren't -- and we can use that info later if Kinetic is somehow scum. He doesn't need to be confirmed right now.

[Guardian]

fwiw, you're frustrating me as well.

huggle?

[Guardian]

Gah. If you all are going to mislynch me for not doing cases.... I'll consider it. But seriously, you will probably mislynch me after I do cases too, so I don't see the effort/reward potential. Maybe me doing cases will convince some people?

I wish I was confirmed town .

[Guardian]

Kinetic?? Can you explain what you just meant there??



Why are you voting Khel? He's town.

Vote for Yos2 or Gorrad .

[Guardian]

Ah. Yeah I noticed that too, that's why I flipped 180 on his role. He has acted scummy but... I might as well just quote it:

So, I was lurking intentionally. The reason for that was that

I am a pro-town powerrole

and didn't want to draw too much attention to myself. On that topic, it would be a really idea to fully massclaim. Revealing all the identities of our powerroles would be a terrible idea. Knowing who is cop, doc, and so on is too advantageous to scum.

Instead, we should have a townie/not-townie claim. We will then do things based off of how many townie/non-townie claims.

Khelvaster, at this point, claim your real role

.

[Guardian]

IH, Kinetic is TOWN.

Um, we don't know that. Perhaps you do if you're scum, but the rest of us don't.

As you well know, there is fair chance that one of the claimed roles is lying scum who killed the previous holder of that role. Now, a random person with a claimed role is somewhat less likely to be scum then a random person who claimed townie, but Kinetic's been acting so scummy this game that I definatly think there's a fair chance he's scum anyway. I never said I wanted to lynch him today, but we need to test him, and the sooner we do so the smaller the cost of the town missing one lynch is.

Kinetic is definitely town this game. If I am wrong about that, I'll eat my hat. I have no idea where you are all getting his play to be scummy from.

At this point, I am guessing that all 5 claimed power roles are town. None of them have been scummy enough to merit making them waste an action to prove themselves -- confirming Kinetic at the expense of wasting a lynch seems to be a ridiculous proposition to me.

Kinetic should only prevent the lynch if he thinks a townie is dying, period.


"Case:"

Yos2 is scum because he is playing safely this game. No real scum hunting, and only peripheral ideas about the mass claim. I straight out didn't like the wagoning idea for reasons that someone else explained, and other than that Yos2 just kind of rode along and claimed.

His "OMGUS no case!?!?" vote on me isn't helping me think differently about this, either.


Gorrad is being extremely accommodating. ..

[Guardian]

If you really think I'm scum, make a case against me.

Why? Whenever I make a case, people say that's scummy and don't buy my case.

The point is, you making a case is how people have a chance to tell if you have pro-town motives or anti-town motives. "I'm not going to tell you what I think because then I'll get lynched" is an incredibly scummy thing to say.

vote:Guardian

That's not what I said. I said "I'm not going to tell you what I think because me telling you what I think probably won't make a difference". Very different mindsets there.

Yos2, it is pro-town if the lyncher claims, right? So why are you trying to stop the lyncher from claiming, and finding me suspicious for trying to get the lyncher to claim???

Trying to stop the lyncher from claiming? Look, it would be great if the lyncher claims, but if the lyncher is still alive he's apparently already claimed townie. It would be great if the scum claimed scum as well, but I don't really see it happening.

Hey, if the lyncher claimed lyncher, I'd be as happy as anyone, and I'm certanly not "trying to stop the lyncher from claiming".

By attacking me for trying to get the lyncher to claim, and calling my arguments "BS" you most certainly are. Attacking me for trying to get the lyncher to claim was horribly anti-town, it would have been great if you as an experienced player chipped in and said something like "yeah, lyncher, claim=good". Instead, you attacked me for doing just that.

But you going on and on about that unlikely situation makes me think that you might yourself be the lyncher, trying to distract us with all that stuff while trying to get one of the townies (me) lynched with absoltuly no reason. And if you are the lyncher, you need to die.

Why is the situation unlikely? It makes sense for the lyncher to claim

for the lyncher

and for the town. I'm trying to convince him/her of that, whomever he/she is.

Yos2 is scum. I really don't feel like making an argument on Yos2, if that means you want to vote me, I don't really care that much, I am doomed to get mislynched in 90% of the games I'm in anyways.

Dude, you get lynched when you play like scum. If you can't be bothered to play in helpful pro-town ways, like explaining your votes and such, then you can't complain if you get lynched.

Yeah, I def can. Me playing like this is not indicative of me being scum. Lynching me for playing this way is stupid. And not doing pro-town things? I orchestrated the mass claim. How is that no pro-town? And I am trying to get you lynched? You're scum right? How is trying to get you lynched not pro-town?

Me playing this way =/= me playing "like scum" at all. I am playing in helpful pro-town ways. Stop lying.

[Guardian]

fwiw, Gorrad and Skruffs might be scum together.

Skruffs claimed "fork" and Gorrad put that down as vanilla town. Pro-town players know there are power-roles that are fork, from reading the Opening Post.

Scum might be more likely to think in an us vs. them mentality, SKruffs putting fork as the "town" and Gorrad interpreting that as skruffs being vanilla town, since Gorrad knew Skruffs was not a power role.


I think it is more of a tell on Gorrad than SKruffs.

[Guardian]

Yes obv.

Khel, voting Flameaxe out of frustration accomplishes nothing, he will be proven as a vig *tonight*....

....


Still think Yos2 is scum, will respond to his points in detail

when

if I get time.

[Guardian]

"Case:"

Yos2 is scum because he is playing safely this game. No real scum hunting, and only peripheral ideas about the mass claim. I straight out didn't like the wagoning idea for reasons that someone else explained, and other than that Yos2 just kind of rode along and claimed.

His "OMGUS no case!?!?" vote on me isn't helping me think differently about this, either.

Ok. Thank you, Guardian, that's actually a perfectly reasonable case. It's not entierly true, I was one of the people that started the Kinetic wagon before he claimed, but I suppose I probably have been doing less scumhunting then usual for me.

Truth is, I've been quite time limited and semi-lurker-ish in all my games. In this case, with limited time and such, I've been debating stratagy (which, as your probably know, I could do in my sleep) but haven't really been doing the real comb-though this thread I'd need for really in depth scumhunting; the only people I found especally suspect earlier in the game was Kinetic, and more recently, you. I can explain why I've thought he's suspicious if you want

Yes please -- I've never liked the Kinetic suspicion this game, I am all but certain he's town.

but I really like the "pardon/vig" plan that's been suggested, and so long as he agrees with that and goes through, we can confirm both of them tonight.

I hate this plan and abhor the idea of wasting a lynch just so Kinetic can prove himself.

To be clear, my vote against you wasn't based on OMGUS. There were 3 interlocking things that made me think you were a likely suspect to be the lyncher (and note that numerically the lyncher is someone we absoltuly need dead ASAP, almost as much as we need the mafia dead).

First off -- why do we want to lynch the lyncher?? This is why I'm trying to get the lyncher to claim. Lynching the lyncher is better than lynching a townie, but definitely scum is better. The lyncher doesn't NK, and the town doesn't lose if the lyncher wins.

1. The scum-looking way you pushed for the mass claim.

You could be a town who honestly thought it was so good you were willing to bend logic however much it took to make it happen

, or you could be mafia who was trying to get ahead of the curve on that one, but the possibility that fit your actions best have been you might be a lyncher who wanted to make it easier to lynch his townie target (and after a mass claim, getting any specific townie lynched is likely to be really easy). I actually mentioned this possibility a while ago:

On another note, I strongly suspect that the lyncher is probably one of the people pushing so hard for an immediate mass claim; mass claiming before the end of the day is probably good pro-town stratagy at this point, but it's also a GREAT way to get a specific townie lynched.

Bolded for truthery....

2. The way that after the mass claim was over, you suddenly started going hard to get a townie (me) lynched without giving any kind of case also fit this "Guardian might be a lyncher" thing perfectly.

That isn't accurate. I started gunning hard to get Khel lynched, with you and Gorrad as other options, and then abruptly switched. [slight wifom]And honestly, you think I'd be that obvious as a lyncher?

"Lynch Yos!" "why?" "he's scum"....[/slight wifom]

3. When I called your lyncher thing BS, I wasn't trying to convince the lyncher not to claim, I was just trying to say that your logic wasn't making much sense to me, that I didn't really expect the lyncher to claim

By doing that, you helped convince the lyncher not to claim. Period. If anything, you should have said what a great idea it would be for the lyncher to claim, not to call the logic BS. By doing so you made it less likely the lyncher would claim -- which is bad.

Anyway, now that you've stated a fairly reasonable case against me, argument #2 against you is a bit weaker, and that's a point in your favor.

I'm not a lyncher, lol. If I was, I'd have claimed. And even if I was and I'm not claiming, lynching lyncher =/= good idea -- which is why the lyncher would claim -- so we don't waste a lynch on him, and so he doesn't get lynched...

[Guardian]

Kinetic makes a disturbing amount of sense.

I highly disagree with Kinetic using his power today. If he is scum, then seriously, like... Well he isn't. I'm just 99% sure of this.

Ih probably isn't scum too, ditto Flameaxe & MoS.

Khel and Shanba could be actually...

Khel almost definitely is actually -- the "don't counterclaim me, plz plz plz" approach really makes me think he is scum.

I think Khel very well might be the lynch today.

[Guardian]

I'm really annoyed we have to waste a lynch just to disprove a me-Kinetic pairing, but if that is really, really necessary, then fine...

[Guardian]

Wow, Kinetic is so obv town.. lol.

[Guardian]

Shanba should claim last night's target and result.

qft.

he claimed innocent I think, but seriously we need his target.

[Guardian]

Why not? Why would having another innocent be bad for the town?

qft.

Seriously, I don't see the negatives of having it out in the open. We mass claimed to get innocents. Why not get more...

[Guardian]

Guardian, leave it. I believe Shanba should not claim his innocent yet. We'll deal with it later. Trust me.

This feels really odd to say in mafia, but OK.

In other news, I'm still waiting for more people to say whether or not I should claim my mason partner, should I have one. It's hard to give the illusion of whether or not I have one if no one is saying anything about it.

If you have one, definitely claim it. As cool as talking at night is, really it isn't that useful and you being 100% confirmed is much better.

Don't wait for your partner to be NKed, it will cause us way too much confusion and suffering -- it is much better to claim a partner as soon as you have one and have them confirm you.

[Guardian]

I think we agreed my plan was awesome, and should definitely be implemented. At any rate, I haven't seen any indication that people think it's a bad plan.

I think that wasting a town-kill is a horrible plan.

I've strongly indicated this .

[Guardian]

Maybe MoS meant something more like this? ^_^.

fraptw nSsrgw dna gt nanaww eela . oMeham itaamw l iiw t rlnw fdmoi Sdmetw e Irm ygi hw

[Guardian]

I think we agreed my plan was awesome, and should definitely be implemented. At any rate, I haven't seen any indication that people think it's a bad plan.

I think that wasting a town-kill is a horrible plan.

I've strongly indicated this .

Wrong, we don't waste a townkill. The vig makes the kill instead.

We have potentially two town kills. The lynch, and the vigging. Following your plan, we lose a town kill.

[Guardian]

See earlier discussion for why vig killing each night is not a good idea anyway.

O.O!

OK, will do. I can't imagine I'll agree with that, directed vig kills seem like it must be a good thing...? We can outrace the scum as we get rid of potential scum and they get rid of confirmed & likely townies...


And what is the case on Kinetic seriously? "he's scummy" doesn't cut it for me as a reason we should not lynch today. I like 99% believe his claim.

[Guardian]

He's unwilling to prove himself.

He's unwilling to *waste a lynch* to prove himself.

I find that to be PRO-town not anti-town.



Imagine if a player had an ability that hurt the town. But if they used it it would prove themselves to be town. Would they be reluctant to use that ability? Definitely. Does that reluctance in and of itself make them scummy? In no way.

This applies directly to Kinetic. He even tried to use the rules that the Mod changed to prove himself without us having to waste a lynch. He's obv town.

[Guardian]

Yos2, we can lynch AND have the vig kill.

If Flameaxe wasn't going to kill except for this plan, then the plan is fine.

I, however, think we should lynch someone, AND Flameaxe should kill someone.




If MoS reveals his mason partner, and that partner confirms that MoS was indeed partnered with him, that means that MoS is scum with that person, or MoS is 100% confirmed.

For all people are insisting that we waste a lynch to confirm Kinetic, I am surprised that not many people are pushing to get MoS confirmed.

[Guardian]

Now you all realize how scummy Khel is being.

And Kinetic wanted him to confirm one way or another.

And everyone yelled him down.



Kinetic is so obv. town.

Yosarian2

, will you provide reasons for Kinetic scum? It is starting to seem like you don't have any and just want him to confirm himself and make a pardon to waste a town lynch .




I still highly and vocally disagree that Kinetic pardoning is desirable. Flameaxe could be killed tonight, and we'd never have a vig kill again. I want to not waste our pro-town kills, and role reveals.

And Flameaxe will be confirmed if he vigges tonight, regardless. So don't try and paint the plan as if we get two pardons out of Kinetic pardoning -- we only get Kinetic's additional confirmation.

[Guardian]

Now you all realize how scummy Khel is being.

Yah, this is a "wtf" moment for me. Still, I find it interesting that your position has changed from LML's game to here. Any specific reason for that.

LML's game? New c9? I am really confused -- and how has my position changed, and concerning what??

1) having massclaimed means that it doesn't matter that we won't lose role reveals. That was one of the major points in favour of massclaiming, and the major one you yourself were pushing.

We still don't know who the lyncher and doc are -- it is useful for us if we know when they die.

2)Saying the Flameaxe should kill in case he gets killed tonight is utter craplogic. It just doesn't follow. If a vigkill is a good thing anyway then he should kill, if a vigkill is a bad thing anyway then he shouldn't kill. Whether or not he dies tonight is irrelevant to the point.

True, but that doesn't really address my point that we are losing a town kill.

3)I agree with you that Kinetic is likely town. However, following my plan we don't actually lose anything by Kinetic confirming himself

No. You are completely and utterly wrong. We lose a lynch. That is bad.

and it would leave no room for doubt that he was as claimed. 100% is better than 90% is better than thinking he is scum (for those who do).

I'm pretty happy with 90% and a lynch than 100% and not a lynch, really. Kinetic isn't going to be lynched this game. He's almost surely town. We don't need to waste a lynch to prove that.

And should he start acting really scummy for whatever reason in the future, we won't mislynch him because he's confirmed.

I should hope we won't mislynch him anyways. I am happy with how confirmed he is right now, really. If everyone disagrees with me on this I guess I'm willing to just let it slide, but I think Kinetic pardoning == bad idea.

[Guardian]

Now you all realize how scummy Khel is being.

Yah, this is a "wtf" moment for me. Still, I find it interesting that your position has changed from LML's game to here. Any specific reason for that.

LML's game? New c9? I am really confused -- and how has my position changed, and concerning what??

You said that Khel's doc unclaim (or implied, you didn't state it exactly) was scummy, whereas in LML's game you were lynched as town for doing exactly that.

In LML's game 2 docs were possible. Here, only one doc is possible.

That is the significant difference -- as I explained there. In 99% of games fake claiming doc as town is bad as it forces another doc -- the real one -- to claim. In LML's game, no doc should have counter claimed, as two docs were possible. Here, two docs are impossible. Also, Khel claiming to be a "power role" in his first post, and then going on to claim doc, is significant in terms of how we were planning to mass claim.

Obviously the lyncher has decided not to claim. Doc claiming is not necessarily a good plan, as Coolbot said. We may as well just lynch Khel and return to the original plan. Also, wtf does this have to do wwith my point?

Your point was that we don't need role reveal anymore -- for lyncher and doc we do.

You are seriously overestimating the power of a vigkill compared to a lynch. A vigkill has no bandwagon to analyse, no claims to shift through, no cases to re-read. Using the vig in order to race the scum is imho, not worth the lost lynches. This is what IH was saying earlier, that we would end up simply mechanically lynching claimed townies instead of scumhunting. Let's not prove him right.

I think we should direct the vig, in effect giving ourselves two lynches per day. That I think is highly worthwhile.

But we don't, because we have the vig make the lynch instead. What we lose is a vigkill, and a vigkill is not necessarily useful for the town. The fact that there is such debate over whether vigs shouls kill evey night is indicative of this.

Hm? No debate =/= that the vig shouldn't kill. I am assuming that the vig *should* kill, under town direction. We could do this by psuedo-voting to "lynch one person", then lynching another, and having the vig kill who we pseudo lynch.

The fact that people are pushing a case against him proves that you are wrong. Also, we don't actually lose a lynch.

We DO lose a town kill, which is what I want to prevent. Stop quibbling on terminology. When I say we lose a lynch you say no we lose a vig kill. When I say we lose a vig kill you say we lose a lynch.

Other people pushing a case on him

in no way makes me wrong

-- I think they are foolish, and that he won't get lynched despite their "case" (which I really haven't seen much of), and that he shouldn't let that make him pardon someone.

I would also like to not mislynch him. Two people =/=majority. Also, you're ignoring the point that he could very well start acting horribly scummy in the future. If he's confirmed innocent, it gives him more leeway to act. And this is a one-off plan: we can't work this in the future because in all probability one of them will be dead.

People need to realize that just because we are using a directed vig kill to compensate for *WASTING* a lynch, that doesn't mean that we aren't *WASTING* a lynch. We are just *WASTING* a lynch and NOT wasting a directed vig kill.

I think we shouldn't waste either

.

[Guardian]

I can agree to disagree on this. It isn't like pardoning loses us the game, I just think it is a bad decision.

If Flameaxe survives the night (as he should, the mafia should be out wifom'd of targeting either Flame or Shanba) tomorrow we should use a "pseudo-vote" system in which we cast votes for who we want NKed, and also for who we want lynched.

For today, I submit that we will go with Shanba's plan, though I disagree with it.

Khel isn't the play today.

Vote:Yosarian

Yos is.

How is it not obvious that Kinetic is town? ^_^. [/slightly non-serious]

Yos, seriously, explain why you were/are suspicious of Kinetic, or I'm really going to start assuming you just wanted him to use his pardon to waste a lynch.

[Guardian]

lol, I can understand why some people want Kinetic 100% confirmed. I find him def. town, but lol.

[Guardian]

Cases are so over-
rated. I prefer to post
haiku, not logic.

[Guardian]

can I please have the claims, or at least the post number of someone who listed the claims.

750, top of page 31.

[Guardian]

Wait, uh oh. I don't want a real doc protecting Khel.

If Khel is a townie, I am FINE with him getting NKed.
If the vig or cop is killed and Khel lives, that is retarded.


Doc, don't protect Khel.

[Guardian]

I agree with most of Pie's post, especially directing the vig -- it is what I've been trying to explain all along >.>.

Doc, if you aren't Khelv, I again stress that you not protect Khelv. If you are the doc he is either scum or a townie, neither of which merit protection.

[Guardian]

fos: CKD

From what I understand, he wants to not scum hunt...

[Guardian]

And for the record, since a few people who know better seem to be taking it seriously for God knows what reason, this "wagon" on me is garbage. Pure garbage. Not one person has given a freaking logical reason for it;

Guardian voted for me apparently just because I didn't trust Kinetic 100% the way he thought I should

, and then the next page said "Oh well, I can understand why people wouldn't trust Kinetic"

Yos2, you just

lied

.

Yos2 is scum because he is playing safely this game. No real scum hunting, and only peripheral ideas about the mass claim. I straight out didn't like the wagoning idea for reasons that someone else explained, and other than that Yos2 just kind of rode along and claimed.

I also didn't like your reasoning at all on Kinetic, but that is one aspect solely. And even though I can understand why some might not trust him, that is not to say I liked your reasons for trusting him.

Don't try and get people to disregard your wagon out of hand, it isn't utter garbage, and you're scum.

[Guardian]

03. Do not use invisible text, extremely small text, color=black, or any other methods of concealing text. Feel free to make up codes to post in thread but be careful as it's possible for anyone to crack them.

O SHIT. lol

[Guardian]

I had actually forgotten about your earlier vote about me not scum hunting, and in any case that reason is certanly not relevent anymore, is it?

Uh... yeah it DEFINITELY is still relevant.


Your targets:

1) easy wagon on Kinetic
2) OMGUS on me
3) easy wagon on Khelvaster.


I don't see at ALL how this is active scum hunting. You pick up easy and not neccesarily good cases on two other players, two of which are claimed POWER ROLES in and OPEN SETUP, and THEN YOU OMGUS me for being the first to vote for you (you claim this is for not providing reasons)

You then go on to straw man me in my reasons for voting you, and claim you forgot.

And then suggest that my reasons for voting you are not relevant!?!?

confirm vote: Yosarian2

.

[Guardian]

Yos2, calling me
lyncher won't get you anywhere;
you look

more

like

scum

!

[Guardian]

fos: mos

just cuz it rhymes doesn't mean you should do it. I'm obvtown.

Although me being scum would be awesome for the town, because you just confirmed protown the cop, priest, vig, governor, etc. Now we don't have to pardon anyone! Good detective work, Skruffs. Glad to have you around.

qft.

fos: Skruffs

.

[Guardian]

Yos2, you dislike
haiku. This is an obv tell.
Lynch Yos2 now please....

[Guardian]

Believe in haiku;
I will not be lynched for it;
Haiku is the way!

[Guardian]

If there is another doc, counter claim now, please.

Trading 1-1 doc for scum would be excellent.

[Guardian]

Why do I even bother anymore? I put in all that hard work, and Yos2 is completely oblivious and keeps making retarded posts like this. That's it. I'm not even going to bother anymore. Congrats, you've made me not care.

QFT. Why does
he do this? Can we lynch Yos-
scum yet, pretty please?

[Guardian]

Whee, let's lynch Guardian because:

• He made an obviously correct read on Kinetic
  
• He is trying to push a Yos2 (=scum) wagon
  
• He isn't lurking

lol Khelvaster, that's really funny!

Now, go try and find actual scum .

[Guardian]

I will continue playing until replaced, which I hope will be soon.
I requested replacement because I realized I don't like large games, and because I simply can't tolerate bullshit cases on me that large groups of people buy into without thinking.

Mini games are much better for me in this regard.

Responding to them simply isn't fun for me, and there is no reason for me to be playing if I'm not having fun. Also, there is no way I'm re-reading this game along with the others that I have to read.



Anyway, Khelvaster has 0 credibility and like Kinetic said, worst doc or worst scum ever.

I think scum, but he shouldn't be lynched//vigged until tomorrow.

Yosarian2 should probably be vigged. Gorrad is not at all a bad second choice though, I'd LOVE to see him respond to MoS re: me.

[Guardian]

Guardian, gorrad did respond. Did you miss that post?

yeah.

[Guardian]

I've been pointing these things out the whole time, but here's a summary:

1. Refused for a long time to make a case on Yos, fairly weak when finally made. Despite this, continued to push with no additional evidence

Dissect the case and explain why it is "fairly weak".

2. Refused to make a case supporting Kinetic for a long time. STILL HASN'T. I completely fail to see how he's such lol obv town.

Make better reads then.

3. Refuses to make a case ON ANYTHING! C'mon, that's like rule #1! Support evidence.

Why? What makes making cases important? Why is it not valid to not make cases?

4. Does this all right after organising a strong pro-town movement. Seriously, he put him self in a nigh-confirmed place as the guy who won the game for town, then plays terribly. Doesn't that scream scum to y'all?

Why would organizing a strong pro-town movement scream scum? Justify how I have played "terribly". Did you think that mass claim was a strong pro-town movement at the time? What are your thoughts on it now? Why do you categorize it as a strong pro-town movement?

[Guardian]

Guardian, not presenting cases is bad play. No one will be convinced to come to your side so long as you're just saying "Person A is scum and Person B is not!" Most of us require some sore of reason to switch votes.

I don't want to give people an easy reason to change their votes. My pushing a Yos2 wagon is an attempt to get people to example Yos2, not for them to vote him without thought. If I'm wrong, I want others to be accountable for this as well. If I am right, I hope the town is wise enough to see it and vote along with me.

[Guardian]

Meh. I care very little what happens in this game anymore.

It took us 25 freaking pages to do something painingly obvious, I'm not interested, and I want to be replaced....

Regardless of who is lynch/pardoned, Flame, VIG Yos2. You won't regret it.

[Guardian]

It took us 25 freaking pages to do something painingly obvious, I'm not interested, and I want to be replaced....

If this is the way you usually react to things not going completely your way, I want you to be replaced too and will avoid games with you in the future. Quitters and whiners are no fun for anyone.

This is how I react to things that don't make sense and aren't fun, online.

You haven't contributed to that particularly, but if you don't want to play with me because I am here solely to enjoy myself, that's fine.

[Guardian]

Gorrad, that's all nice, but explain why would scum be more likely to not make cases than town.


Also, Gorrad, you have now responded to 1 of about 5 questions I would like to hear you answer...

[Guardian]

I hate it when people make each other's arguments, so I'm going to wait until Gorrad's responded.

QFT. Khel....?

[Guardian]

Guardian, I want to say that I am very quickly losing my respect for you. You join a game, and you treat it as a commitment. You don't go asking for a replacement simply because things are not going your way and you are not enjoying it. If you think something does not make sense, try to change that person perspective. Don't go flake on the game.

If I am not enjoying an online

game

, why shouldn't I get replaced?

I have other things going on in my life such that if I am not enjoying a game I sure as hell am going to get replaced.

forget this why do i even keep posting... losing scotmany's "respect" that he supposedly had for me... SL, please do actively seek replacement for me...



And I'm only directing the vig if we have Kinetic pardon me to get two birds with one stone, as Khelvaster is arguing. Khel says we should have me lynched just to disprove me-Kinetic, which is FINE, but once Kinetic pardons my role, then there is no longer a legit reason to have my vigged.

[Guardian]

Guys, I am sorry for any drama/feelings/whatever I have caused.

In addition to whatever reasons I may have, I legitimately don't have time to be in 6 games right now; it is a drain on my social and academic life. I do need a replacement in at least a few of my games, and this game just happens to be one of those.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

[Guardian]

Meh. You don't want to view it as a town tell because I am such an easy target right now.

confirm vote: Yos2

.

Shadowlurker

, have you posted in the replacement thread....?

[Guardian]

Or we can drop the subject. Yeah.

[Guardian]

unvote vote: Khelvaster

FoS: Yos2

I haven't been replaced yet. I really am not feeling giving any arguments/reasons.

Discuss.

[Guardian]

MoS, go back to the drawing board, I'm not scum with kinetic, and lynching me and a "vig count" just makes things a lot more confusing (at least when I argued we should do this earlier, people said it was too confusing ).

If Kinetic fails to pardon someone, you can lynch him and then me in succession, seriously. I am that sure he's town.

[Guardian]

No, you were all for lynching Guardian, then vigging him, even though if I pardoned him, like MOS said, you have no reason to suspect him.

Um, you know, the possible link between you and guardian is not the only reason to suspect him; it's not even the main reason I suspect him.

it does seem to be the main reasons KHEL suspects me, which is suspicious as anything.

his plan is to have me lynched and see if Kinetic can pardon me -- but guess what, Kinetic WILL pardon me.

But then, Khel wants me vigged anyways, even though the crux of his case is GONE.

confirm vote: Khelvaster

.

Refusing to claim doctor this long was a horrible move if you are doctor, as was asking to be doc protected. Die, scum.

[Guardian]

BECAUSE ITS SO FREAKING OBVIOUS THAT KINETIC IS TOWN.


Skruffs makes a lot of sense.
I also disagree with Kinetic pardoning, but was yelled down for that.

Seriously, there is no need for Kinetic to "prove himself".

He is so obv. obv. town.

unvote vote: Tarhalindur

[Guardian]

CKD, read the two posts

above

your vote for me.

Thanks. .

I agree with MoS's list, though I'd subtract Pie and add Khelvaster.


I'm fine with a Yos lynch, but Tar's lurking is drawing my eye right now. Tar scum kind of points to Khel scum, too.

He self voted, and has constantly been hopping between Khel and me, switching between "Guardian might be scum" to "Khel is obv scum die".

Bus ne1?

[Guardian]

Sefer and Scott indeed do need attention.

SL, have you put in any effort whatsoever to find a replacement for me...?

[Guardian]

Oh -- I thought it was your "likely scum" list. Which I think Khelv belongs on. I'm fine with lynching someone else today.

@pie... lol, that's funny. I don't know him-forum enough to know if that's true .


I LOVE the hypocrisy of scotmany: "Guardian, you bastard, this game is a commitment, how DARE you abandon it."
...Then he doesn't post for

10 days

!

What do you think about him?

[Guardian]

MoS -- thoughts on scotmany?

[Guardian]

ok.

unvote vote: Gorrad

OMGUS .



fos:
tar,
yos2,
khelv

[Guardian]

:goodposting: Khelvaster.

Seriously, I love how you commit to one stance and stick with it. The thoughtful analysis that goes into your suspicious and your willingness to stick to a position really gives credence to them.

Your play this game makes me want to be a better person.

[Guardian]

Some games of mine had ended. I can keep this game for a bit, even though it is not really that fun. I plan to bring back Haiku .

Jath... in the most polite way possible: you are sucking as a mod, and I don't want to add to your burden. Lots of people need to be prodded/replaced.

And... it does suck to replace out for the players staying, you want to be able to attack that person who has now left . So sorry for that.

So I can stay here as some sort of catharsis for Khelvaster + Gorrad .


I'd Hammah: Tar, Yos2, Khelv, Scotmany, Gorrad. Maybe Coolbot too, but not today, he's being much to pro-town.

pseudovote: No pardon

everyone feel free to fos me and Kinetic now for 25 more pages....

[Guardian]

Yos2 is right -- "NO THEY DON'T".

Seriously, days >20 pages suck. We need a lynch, that's why I'm willing to hammer almost half the living players.

[Guardian]

I doubt anything could possibly make clear what Guardian is short of lynching him; the scum have no incentive to kill him off.

Yeah Khelvaster, you're
right; the cop

definitely

couldn't target me...

[Guardian]

Flame, if you trust me:
Tar scum --> Vig Yos2
Tar town --> Vig Scot
Tar pardoned --> Vig Tar

imho...

[Guardian]

I would say we should do a random dice roll between all claimed townies, that person gets lynched. Mafia can't push townie lynches, that way.

The town also can't push mafia lynches that way......

[Guardian]

Skruffs, are you mafia, or do you

actually

believe that random is the best way to go and think that a vote on me logically follows from the reasoning in your posts?

[Guardian]

Skruffs -- if we are random lynching -- why didn't you roll a die and cast your vote? Want to have your cake and eat it too?

[Guardian]

I still believe getting both chances at scumz would be more ideal in this situation. We can confirm kinetic anytime.

If you aren't going to vig Kinetic, he definitely shouldn't pardon.

Seriously.


I have some degree of suspicion for everyone on my wagon -- they are four people, but I bet that there's 2 scum.

Seriously, I want this day to end.

I've never hammered before. Here goes:

unvote, vote: Tarhalindur

NO PARDON.

Flameaxe vig a claimed townie who is suspicious. My recommendations are in thread if you care. If there is a pardon, def vig Tar.

[Guardian]

Correction: Tar is at -0

[Guardian]

I trust him for the rest of the game.

[Guardian]

Sigh. Kinetic is obviously town. I mean, he's been claiming town power role all game, and he's claimed the least desirable//most confirmable pro-town role.

I'm a big fan of Tar dying and Flameaxe viging someone else of his choosing. Heck, I'd be fine with him viging someone of MoS's choosing, MoS is almost surely town also.

Seriously: STOP FOCUSING ON OUR CLAIMED POWER ROLES. ITS DUMB.

Everyone is forgetting the purpose of the mass claim -- to get 5 practically confirmed people. There is 1/14 chance Kinetic is scum, just statistically, otherwise the real governor would have countered him. And his play has been so convincingly town. Wasting a lynch to confirm him is idiocy.

Tar self voted on and off all day, and hasn't contributed anything. I'm very happy with him dying.

I get really frustrated with this game because it seems so obvious yet people just....

.


Khel shouldn't be targeted by any pro-town power role, except MAYBE IH.

He's not vanilla. If he's the doc, the mafia are practically forced into killing him. If he's not the doc and is mafia, he'll be alive in a few days and we can lynch him then.



Summary:
OMG Kinetic OBV town

NO PARDON EVER

FFS.
Flameaxe viges someone of his choosing, or our choosing, or MoS's choosing.
Don't kill Khel, even though he's playing really really scummy and should die by the time a few days have passed.

[Guardian]

I'm just gonna say this, and it will probably be ignored, but I want to say this:

MoS, being your mason buddy would be hella coolies if you don't have one .


oh and re: the above, I agree with Kinetic and Pie and there are a few more things I wasn't sure if they brought up but I don't feel like reading more carefully because they've done a great job of demonstrating Khelvaster's argument's ridiculousness.

[Guardian]

Jesus Christ...We aren't wasting a lynch. We are losing a vig kill. Get this through your heads. A cop is more important than a vig--everyone will agree upon that.

No, everyone pretty much disagrees -- in this setup, coping Kinetic is MUCH LESS important than not wasting a town kill.

As such, I would assume a one-night-cop is better than a one-night vig.

Nope..............................................................................

[Guardian]

I knew Gorrad was scum. He tried to copy my poems, I was going to bring that up as a scum tell but I thought y'all would find that ridiculous. Anyways, well done flameaxe!

IH was our Priest, our vig and cop *probably* still live, *yay*.

vote Yosarian2

seems like a part of a healthy balanced breakfast.

Ideally, I will re-read the game and search for Gorrad interactions....



MoS -- you said that Shanba not revealing his results would work itself out, and I trusted you on this -- can you explain more now? It seems like it would be great to get Shanba's two results .

[Guardian]

unvote vote: Skruffs

A
wagon is forming; I don't
want to miss a thing.

[Guardian]

BTW, if anyone thinks Gorrad scum was busing me, you really need to rethink your scumhunting strategies. I just skimmed Gorrad a little, and felt the need to point this out.

[Guardian]

Yeah, Gorrad isn't scum with Kinetic either, this is kind of obv. Probably not scum with Khelvaster either, to be honest.

I think that at this point if we have an alive doc they should claim and we should lynch Khelvaster

. Otherwise, I'm thinking he really is a crazy doc.

Gorrad's 26th pots is striking to me, he does a player by player... and leaves out like 4 players. I don't like how he reacted when being questioned on Yos2 either.

unvote vote: Yosarian2

. I'll read yos2 at some later time to see how he treated Gorrad...

[Guardian]

Well, now that I think about it, mass claim will help the town out. I have no problem with the order either.

Scumscumscumdiescumdie. If he claims vanilla I suggest we proceed with the lynch.

You have a point here about scot...

[Guardian]

For CoolBot, I posted 101 late and didn't mean to put that so strongly. Just scratch the last sentence, it is the product of a tired mind. I suspect CoolBot mostly for his attitude. I'm all for aggressive, but he really seems to be acting mean about it to my eyes. I know it's not a definite scumtell, but I think it's enough to warrant a FoS.

Scum with Gorrad? Doubtful.

[Guardian]

ckd is a fence sitter in general...

fos

sefer too, to an extent, I really didn't like how he was all: "let's please wait until people come before making any decision."

those are my thoughts through page 8.

[Guardian]

No, he actually doesn't. And guardian, I am not liking your arrogant attitude. Seriously, you are acting like you are better than everyone else, especially with your post saying that Gorrad could not bus you.

Explain how looking at Gorrad's play and saying that he probably isn't busing me = arrogant. How am I being arrogant? Substantiate this.

Instead of simply saying that he wasn't bussing you, maybe you should give reasoning why he wasn't.

Cuz... he attacked me.... all day... and heavily opposed my mass claim idea.... and supported my lynch... and had lots of authentic back and forth debate with me.

[Guardian]

Kinetic, I love you and I hate to burst your bubble, but they are voting cuz I pointed out your quote, and because he expressed dislike of me.

Expressing dislike of me is clearly anti-town.



Seriously though, why do you guys think scot is scum? I am leaning that way, but I'm interested in hearing your reasons, to see if they make sense.

[Guardian]

You three are pretty much confirmed town to me -- that is a spot to be aggressive in and take a leadership role. I am very unlikely to find you scummy for your reasons; I would be convinced or not convinced by them -- and I'd like to hear the reasons so I can see which.

[Guardian]

wow, wtf, seriously??? If I hear it from MoS I am tempted but... this is very contrary to what I usually think of as a good idea .

Also, not everyone has checked in yet. If there is a non-Khelvaster doctor, I want him to counter claim NOW.

[Guardian]

Slight fos of Skruffs for slight fosing me for the sake of using the term slight fos.
I don't like it, scummy to me.

Anyways, I re-read scot, and pondered the situation... I still think Yos2 is a good choice, but

unvote vote: Scot

at present...

[Guardian]

Ya actually, I don't like this.

unvote

I want to hear an explanation, or result, or something. Following confirmed townies mindlessly is appealing... but then it really really isn't.

Yos2, Skruffs, Scot are all high on my radar, but I'm not going to place a vote on someone besides Yosarian2 unless someone

convinces

me to.

[Guardian]

I just remembered scot -- how do you explain your bitching me out for asking for a replacement, and then going MIA for 10+ days.

Weren't you being just the same in not comitting to the game?

[Guardian]

Skruffs, expressing suspicion of me is a known scum tell. Cut it out.

And Skruffs -- you wouldn't trade a doctor for a scum today? I would gladly trade the doctor for another scum and get the scum's number's down to 2.

I'm going to

vote: Skruffs

. I haven't really liked his play, and he is acting questionable recently too.