Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

We know the devil was vigged because the role was revealed. Mafia kills are not revealed. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage.

Original Roll String: 1d16

1 16-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

RAWR

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Kinetic

[Mastermind of Sin]

doc should claim townie. I would not necessarily look to lynch townies first. It would depend on what claims have been made. If there are some big counterclaims, I might look there for for the claim. With the devil dead, the mafia are already at a disadvantage. I say we mass claim now, since we won't find out the roles of the mafia kills. This way, there is only one role we won't know.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Indeed, having the devil dead is awesome. If the inspector and Priest both get a guilty and stork-aligned result, respectively, we've found the miller, another confirmed role.

In addition, this mass claim can really screw the scum over. If the lyncher claims now, but doesn't claim their target, we still can't stop them from winning. However, this will eliminate someone from our list of mafia suspects, so we can focus on catching the mafia. The lyncher will essentially get protection from the town for helping us catch mafia, so it's in their best interests to claim in the mass claim. This way, the mafia will be forced to counterclaim the lyncher, and we'll be able to figure out which one is mafia through various methods, including our power roles. Also, if a mafia claims lyncher, the real lyncher should counterclaim to expose them as mafia, so that we can lynch them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If we do not mass claim today, I will not support a mass claim at all in the future. With only one unknown role and the majority of the town being townies (5 townies and a miller), we have a good chance that their random kill didn't hit a power role. This is our only chance to mass claim, and I agree wholeheartedly with Guardian's arguments. Anyone who is trying to fight this is either retarded or scum, as far as I'm concerned. That's how obvious a mass claim is, if you've been paying attention.

With everyone claimed, the mafia lose the advantage of having their kill not revealed. When someone dies and their role is not revealed, we will know they are not mafia, and that they are the role they claimed to be, which completely nullifies the fact that the deaths aren't revealed. Having the devil already dead, if we take away the biggest advantage the scum have and force them to commit to a roleclaim on D1, we can force them into a corner and beat them into submission!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mass claim order should be determined randomly by dice roll. I've done this several times in the past, so I can set it up again.

I've renumbered this to account for the dead people:

01. Sefer
02. Urzassedatives
03. Pie_is_good
04. Mastermind of Sin
05. scotmany12
06. CoolBot
07. Khelvaster
08. Gorrad
09. Mert
10. Haut Boy
11. IH
12. Yosarian2
13. Guardian
14. spectrumvoid
15. Kinetic
16. curiouskarmadog

Claims (in the order rolled):

Original Roll String: 1d16

1 16-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

Original Roll String: 1d15

1 15-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

Original Roll String: 1d14

1 14-Sided Dice: (13) = 13

Original Roll String: 1d13

1 13-Sided Dice: (11) = 11

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (4) = 4

Original Roll String: 1d11

1 11-Sided Dice: (10) = 10

Original Roll String: 1d10

1 10-Sided Dice: (10) = 10

Original Roll String: 1d9

1 9-Sided Dice: (4) = 4

Original Roll String: 1d8

1 8-Sided Dice: (5) = 5

Original Roll String: 1d7

1 7-Sided Dice: (5) = 5

Original Roll String: 1d6

1 6-Sided Dice: (6) = 6

Original Roll String: 1d5

1 5-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

Original Roll String: 1d4

1 4-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

Original Roll String: 1d3

1 3-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

Whoever is left is the last person to claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Skip the code box if you don't want to see the process of figuring out the claim order. I just put it there so nobody could claim that I had anything to do with deciding it, since it was entirely random.

Code: Select all

Claims:

14 - spectrumvoid

01. Sefer
02. Urzassedatives
03. Pie_is_good
04. Mastermind of Sin
05. scotmany12
06. CoolBot
07. Khelvaster
08. Gorrad
09. Mert
10. Haut Boy
11. IH
12. Yosarian2
13. Guardian
14. Kinetic
15. curiouskarmadog

13 - Guardian

01. Sefer
02. Urzassedatives
03. Pie_is_good
04. Mastermind of Sin
05. scotmany12
06. CoolBot
07. Khelvaster
08. Gorrad
09. Mert
10. Haut Boy
11. IH
12. Yosarian2
13. Kinetic
14. curiouskarmadog

4 - scotmany12

01. Sefer
02. Urzassedatives
03. Pie_is_good
04. Mastermind of Sin
05. CoolBot
06. Khelvaster
07. Gorrad
08. Mert
09. Haut Boy
10. IH
11. Yosarian2
12. Kinetic
13. curiouskarmadog

2 - urzassedatives

01. Sefer
02. Pie_is_good
03. Mastermind of Sin
04. CoolBot
05. Khelvaster
06. Gorrad
07. Mert
08. Haut Boy
09. IH
10. Yosarian2
11. Kinetic
12. curiouskarmadog

6 - Gorrad

01. Sefer
02. Pie_is_good
03. Mastermind of Sin
04. CoolBot
05. Khelvaster
06. Mert
07. Haut Boy
08. IH
09. Yosarian2
10. Kinetic
11. curiouskarmadog

1 - Sefer

01. Pie_is_good
02. Mastermind of Sin
03. CoolBot
04. Khelvaster
05. Mert
06. Haut Boy
07. IH
08. Yosarian2
09. Kinetic
10. curiouskarmadog

4 - Khelvaster

01. Pie_is_good
02. Mastermind of Sin
03. CoolBot
04. Mert
05. Haut Boy
06. IH
07. Yosarian2
08. Kinetic
09. curiouskarmadog

3 - Coolbot

01. Pie_is_good
02. Mastermind of Sin
03. Mert
04. Haut Boy
05. IH
06. Yosarian2
07. Kinetic
08. curiouskarmadog

5 - IH

01. Pie_is_good
02. Mastermind of Sin
03. Mert
04. Haut Boy
05. Yosarian2
06. Kinetic
07. curiouskarmadog

2 - Mastermind of Sin

01. Pie_is_good
02. Mert
03. Haut Boy
04. Yosarian2
05. Kinetic
06. curiouskarmadog

5 - Kinetic

01. Pie_is_good
02. Mert
03. Haut Boy
04. Yosarian2
05. curiouskarmadog

1 - Pie_is_good

01. Mert
02. Haut Boy
03. Yosarian2
04. curiouskarmadog

1 - Mert

01. Haut Boy
02. Yosarian2
03. curiouskarmadog

2 - Yosarian2

01. Haut Boy
02. curiouskarmadog

1 - Haut Boy

last person to claim: curiouskarmadog

Claim Order:

spectrumvoid
Guardian
scotmany12
urzassedatives
Gorrad
Sefer
Khelvaster
Coolbot
IH
Mastermind of Sin
Kinetic
Pie_is_good
Mert
Yosarian2
Haut Boy
curiouskarmadog

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic beat me to it b/c I was making the code part

I believe in this order of mass claims, because it is impossible for scum to influence it at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Coolbot. There *isn't* a hole in the plan. However, there are ways for scum to play this that will give them a better chance than usual. If we play decently, we'll still win, but there is no reason to make it harder for us by telling the scum how to give themselves a better chance.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah, Guardian, you're not being mean, just scummy to me .

I would not be terribly shocked if MoS

is

scum and is supporting mass claim to look good because of how greatly pro-town and anti-scum mass claim is.

I don't like this. If it's so great a strategy, why would a scum support it? Sure it would make them seem pro-town, but if it catches them, what's the point? This gives distancing vibes to me. Also, I reread and it seems I was a bit unclear. Guardian, I am by no means CERTAIN you're scum, however, this seems like the position a scum would be setting up, especially if inspector or priest was killed. Also, I think that we should be allowed to point out holes in plans such as this. CoolBot is right that the scum are probably not idiots. If there's a hole, one of them will likely find it and exploit it, and I'd rather we fix the problem than have that happen.

Mod

Does the mafia know who the lyncher is? Just wondering, as the role is listed as a Spork.

Scum would support it because they believe the town isn't stupid. The protown players would eventually realize that a mass claim is the best strategy, and the scum would be outed as the only ones opposing it. As an inevitable thing, I could see scum eventually agreeing to it, if not right away. It depends on what strategy they're going for.

Also, you need to look at this from our side, as well. You say that we could be scum who know that we killed a power role, right? Look at it from our point of view. You could be scum who knows you killed a townie (a much more likely thing to happen), and you are fighting against it, because you know you don't have any holes to hide it. No scum will get away with claiming a lone power role, because a) we will lynch them eventually, and b) the scum would normally have killed a lone power role, since there aren't any counterclaims where scum would be hiding. The scum don't have to worry about outing themselves by killing someone who no one has counterclaimed.

Reason B is why I'm not even that worried about the dead person being a power role. The mass claim has no downsides to it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That defeats the purpose of a mass claim, and it allows scum to have input on who claims first, by possibly pushing the wagons in directions that benefit them. I don't mind if we talk about who's scummy and who's not, but bandwagoning them to a claim is pointless.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That defeats the purpose of a mass claim, and it allows scum to have input on who claims first, by possibly pushing the wagons in directions that benefit them. I don't mind if we talk about who's scummy and who's not, but bandwagoning them to a claim is pointless.

Why is that? Generally, I'd think in the long term, we'd get more information from "These 6 people bandwagoned MOS day 1, then he claimed doc, then he was killed by the mafia and so we don't know his role" then we would without the bandwagon. Basically, I don't understand why a random list is better then having scummy looking people claim first via bandwagons; day 1 bandwagons aren't great, perhaps, but I'd like to think they would be at least as good as a random list at finding scum.

Not that it really matters, though. We all claim today, one day or the other, and this game should be fairly easy.

Scc

Anyway, after carefully reading through the second mod post, I have

A few questions for the mod about the setup:

1. The town win condition is "you win when all the sporks are dead". Does that include the lyncher?

2. I notice that the mafia win condititon is this:

You win when the Town no longer can win and the Lyncher condition cannot be fulfilled.

So, if the lyncher suceeds, does the mafia lose? I'm a bit confused here. If the lyncher wins, does everyone else lose?

Scummy people are not always scum, Yos. It is foolish to believe that Day 1 bandwagons are more likely to be *on* scum than subtly manipulated *by* scum, so I don't trust bandwagon claims one bit, in this situation. A mass claim in this manner is the only way to get an unbiased order of claiming, one that scum cannot possibly have any influence on.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic, stfu. You're being childish about this. You claimed out of order and needlessly responded to the pressure of like 5 votes, when it's like 11 to lynch.

IH is an idiot for goading Kinetic into responding with insults, but that's IH for you.

I love how IH keeps talking about how he was concerned about a scum claiming the role of the person they killed, yet he hasn't bothered to read *my* post where I already explained why that wasn't really much of a problem.

The doctor should claim townie, period. It doesn't matter if the scum kill the doctor. We will know, because power roles will start dropping dead. Also, some scum will probably do something stupid like make a last minute change in their claim to say they are the doctor, and we will lynch them. If someone claims doctor, we don't lynch them that day, but if they don't die that night we lynch them the next day. It's good for the doctor to claim to save us a lynch, but the scum should kill them, or they're just wasting a night kill. If the scum don't kill them, it's likely that it was scum faking the claim, and I'd rather lynch a real doctor on the second day after the scum do something stupid like letting them live through the night than let a scum doctor get away with an open claim for multiple days in a row. The doctor is important, but not so important that we just *have* to keep them alive. They'll die eventually, and we'll probably know when it happens.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If no one counterclaims Gov, it doesn't matter. Even if you were scum and the dead person was the Gov (something I'm seeing as a good possibility), it's not like you're going to live to anywhere near endgame. Kinetic, your play does seem very much like scum that realized that mass claim was a protown strategy and decided to support it, knowing that it was inevitable. It would make a lot of sense for the dead person to be the Governor, but we'll come to that eventually.

IH, I've already hypothesized that some of the mass claim supporters are scum. Considering that all but about 3 people have said they are willing to mass claim, that's pretty fucking obvious by now. However, they are not supporting it because it helps them. They are supporting it because it'll make them look more protown to agree with a protown strategy. Although, I do feel that no scum could possibly be stupid enough to oppose mass claim for this long, so I feel that you are protown. However, that doesn't make you

right

, because mass claim is *STILL* the play today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic may be confirmable, but he's still very Wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still strongly in favor of massclaim, and I'm still firmly in favor of castration for all those opposed to massclaim.

But the reason I think it's good is because I see no way for the scum to take advantage of it.

If someone does see a way for scum to take advantage, they should say so.

Seriously, (some) people, asking people to take a massclaim on faith because thinking it through would help the scum is ridiculous. If people have complaints, they can say them, and we'll explain why they're wrong.

And then we castrate them.

QFT. IH has probably already been castrated, though. What else can we do to him?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thank you to CoolBot for showing that mass claim does *NOT* out and out lose us the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is idiocy. I am disappointed that Urza would sink this low, and angry that Kinetic would act just like IH in goading him into further insults. You're all tards, get over yourselves and get back to the actual game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

someone want to update the oppose/support list?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am amused that IH accused us of "steadfast tenacity" and "unwillingness to actually want to discuss any negative effects", when I don't remember seeing him actually respond to many of the counterarguments that *have* been presented against his points. Ah, the irony.

IH is acting like he expects *us* to be the ones pointing out negative effects of the mass claim, even though it should be quite obvious by now that we don't believe there are any truly negative effects from mass claiming. Feel free to point things out that could go wrong, and we'll feel free to rebuke them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Flameaxe, Mass claim is this game can *only* happen if we do it now. It becomes useless after D1. In fact, claiming at all becomes relatively pointless after D1, because there is too much doubt built into the system, too many factors to screw with the claims. For all the opponents of mass claim are saying we are unwilling to acknowledge any downsides to mass claiming, they don't seem to be taking into account the numerous and disastrous effects of NOT mass claiming today.

scotmany, read my posts in isolation. I have

already

addressed the issue of the doc being dead, along with many other issues that we (the supporters) have been accused of refusing to address. In fact, I generally tried to preemptively addressed them so that the questions did not have to be asked in the first place, yet they still were.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shanba, I agree that them randomly claiming was dumb, but it's also a show of faith from them that we are still going to get the mass claim done today. I feel it's a point in their favor that they were willing to claim under no pressure, just to help push their strategy into action.

[Mastermind of Sin]

IH, for all that you are worried about the doc dying and letting all our power roles get killed, you certainly aren't showing it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Option 2 wins

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos, you are assuming that the scum will all claim townie. If they counterclaim any power roles, they can't just start killing them off, because that blows their cover. And, if they all claim townie, we have 5 power roles confirmed and like 12-15 townies or w/e to sift through for scum, between the Investigator, Vig, and our Lynch.

With your strategy of only having the mason/vig/governor claim when they are about to be lynched, that means that the cop can never give us innocent results, because it can't be believed. We could run hypocop if it weren't for the fact that we have only partial-reveal.

We completely waste having all of our power roles by having them not claim today, because there is no way we can possible trust them after this.

I feel that it is better to have power roles that might be killed off eventually but at least be able to use them, than to have power roles we can't trust at all, and who might die before they give us any useful results, and who we cannot prove was said role if they die without getting to claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The vig should kill the first night to confirm themselves as the actual vig. After that, the Vig shouldn't kill unless we have a scum to kill (ie, we lynch wrong on a counterclaim and the vig kills the scumz for us).

My internet is screwy, don't expect much in the way of posting until we get new internet soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Eh, we can always lynch IH if he doesn't claim. Any self-respecting protown player would claim under threat of lynch anyways. He'd just be hurting the town if he didn't claim, so we'll just lynch him if he doesn't.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow, Khelvaster. Pay attention instead of doing retarded shit.

Unvote

Shanba needs to claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

the priest is expendable after he confirms the inspector. The scum can't have both roles to claim. The scum can't get away with an inspector claim, because the priest will out them tommorrow. The scum can't get away with a priest claim, because if they say the inspector is mafia, we lynch the priest first to confirm this. Either way, the scum have a <10% chance of even screwing over our priest/inspector confirmation. Even if the doctor is dead and the mafia kill the inspector tonight, that will confirm that the doctor was their N1 kill, thereby keeping them from fake-claiming it. Either way, they can't get away with killing or fake-claiming the inspector. We have over 90% probability of getting usefulness out of our inspector, and the priest is only semi-important past the inspector confirmation (same with the doctor).

Also, the doctor should literally roll a die and protect one of the vig/cop. This way, it keeps the scum from being able to kill either power role, because there is no psychological WIFOM to go through. There would be exactly a 50% chance of protecting either role, so the scum can't predict that. Also, who knows if the doctor will actually follow this plan? The scum don't know, so they first have to WIFOM whether or not the doctor will actually follow the plan before they can even try and figure out who to kill. They won't have much chance of actually figuring out which one to kill, so they'll be safer killing off another power role that they didn't counterclaim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Rolename only. Night actions can be claimed later. Claiming night actions just helps the scum set up their claims. I would prefer claiming night actions in reverse order that we claim rolenames, so that the people who claim later cannot base everything off the people before them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Like I said. The doc does not have to follow this plan. However, with the plans that have been suggested, it will be hard for the scum to figure out what the doc will do. We don't need to discuss it anymore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Following Sarc's plan, I would definitely take the 33% chance of the vig getting protected. Just sayin'. Either way, though, we don't know which plan the doc will use.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MASON! WHOO WHOO

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why should I have to claim who I targetted, if I targetted them? Other than Zindie being the mason, my claim proves nothing. If my partner (should I have one) agree that I should claim, I will do so.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Know that I will not hold off claiming forever. I just don't think it's worth giving the mafia this information yet. For example, if I had masoned a power role last night, that just gives them extra incentive to off me or my partner. If I claim to have targetted no one, then they can probably make a good guess as to who I would target, and kill them. It's not a big deal if I claim, but I don't think it's entirely useful to us, other than confirming myself. The only thing that could go wrong is that I eventually target someone, and they end up dead before I claim it. That's why I'm waiting to see if my partner agrees.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Me, Skruffs, Yosarian2, Tar, Pie, Coolbot, Khelvaster, Sefer, Gorrad, scot, and Guardian

I trust Khelvaster, Coolbot, and marginally Guardian as well. I don't really have a read on Skruffs, Yos2, Tar, and Sefer, mostly because I forgot what they've said. I'm suspicious of Gorrad, scotmany, and CKD.

[Mastermind of Sin]

IH, he has to be fake claiming a doc if he's scum. After claiming townie in the mass claim, no matter what he was soft-claiming earlier, he was forced to say he was the doc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You know... that is incredibly interesting...

In my opinion it has been the Priest, Mason, and the lesser extant of Viggy that has been bothering me.

MOS has an easy way to confirm himself, yet hasn't yet... If he just hasn't contacted anyone yet... fine, but claiming you've already contacted someone and not saying who, or that person not just coming out and just out and out confirming you is scummy as hell... If you are MOS's mason partner, please just say so. Save us all a bunch of time...

Priest has a much weaker case... and with IH trying to out the doc (he might have got his wish on that one >>), I wouldn't put it against him to throw everything into chaos by outing the doc, letting the doc die night one, claim Inspector is scum, and then after Inspector lynch, lynching him would be easy...

The Vig case, though, is by FAR the most interesting.

However, before I go into many details on this I need something.

KHEL STOP FUCKING LURKING AND GET YOUR ASS OUT HERE. SL: Can we get a confirmation that he has been prodded or a replacement is being sought for him?

After he claims, I'll explain completely... Best Case Scenario... we may have actually outed three scum... worst case scenario... well, its pretty bad, but I'm pretty sure everyone knows so its not much worse than what might happen...

I haven't claimed whether or not I've contacted anyone. I'm just saying that if I have, I'm waiting for my partner to agree that I should claim first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Did I mention that Yosarian2 is an idiot? I mean, c'mon, that was a completely retarded post you made. Think about what you said, and don't do that again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Guardian, leave it. I believe Shanba should not claim his innocent yet. We'll deal with it later. Trust me.

In other news, I'm still waiting for more people to say whether or not I should claim my mason partner, should I have one. It's hard to give the illusion of whether or not I have one if no one is saying anything about it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good, people are weighing in on this. Keep it up. I'm hoping to get opinions from everyone.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, besides my mason claim, what else are we discussing? How much is there really left to talk about? All the lynch shit, obviously. Nothing else, I think? By the way, did we decide if we were directing the vig or not? Anyway, I can't think of anything else we need to talk about.

[Mastermind of Sin]

which plan was that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ooh, I have a good idea, so that I won't have to claim my partner (if I have one) and so that I can confirm myself even if my partner dies after I recruit them. My partner (today or the one I recruit tonight) should make a post that encodes *some* sort of simple word or message in a really complicated way, overnight send me the code and post number so that I can use it to confirm myself in case they die. God, I'm age appropriately brilliant! Go me!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, the scum question is a good one for the real doc to ask, because then he knows how the town plans to differentiate scum from town, so he knows exactly what he needs to do as doc to prove he's not scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, isn't that a breadcrumb?

No, not a breadcrumb. However, I *did* code something into that message, just to prove what I was talking about. I'd laugh hysterically if I had any way of knowing that a scum scrutinized my posts for a code that mattered.

Ooh, I have a good idea, so that I won't have to claim my partner (if I have one) and so that I can confirm myself even if my partner dies after I recruit them. My partner (today or the one I recruit tonight) should make a post that encodes *some* sort of simple word or message in a really complicated way, overnight send me the code and post number so that I can use it to confirm myself in case they die. God, I'm age appropriately brilliant! Go me!

Following the letters after commas and making the last comma followed by a full word split into other words, I spelled "Iso Image". That's a decent code, although it could've been deciphered if you knew what message you were looking for. That's why the code shouldn't necessarily be something easy to look for, like a player's name or anything.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Khelvaster

The doc doesn't need to counterclaim, Khelvaster counterclaimed himself. Although, I see no reason why Khelvaster wouldn't have confirmed himself to be doc to draw out the doc claim if he was scum, so

Unvote

. Khelvaster is not the play for today, but he is a convenient person for scum to push against.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos2, while I agree that Kinetic is being dumb, I'm nearly 100% sure he is protown. However, I don't really have any suspects to lynch atm, so I'm interested in testing him just because I don't have someone I'm sure is scum yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic, the doc doesn't need to claim today. If no one counterclaims Khel, your WIFOMing the mafia could still work. However, if you get a counterclaim, the mafia will know Khel is not the doc for sure, so they won't be WIFOM'd anymore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I find him def. town, but lol.

Pardon my redundancy, but WHY?!?!? Make a frikkin' case already. We've made a case against him, but you have yet to post why you are so sure! I fail to see why you think he's practically confirmed, and your repeated defense of 'he's obviously town' without any facts to support you is just adding to my suspicion of y'all two as scumpartners. I said after the mass claim that I was wary of you using your influence as the one who started the pro-town movement to make it seem like you're infalliable, but it doesn't. Everyone must post logic, even you, if we want to win this thing.

Kinetic, I have half a mind that you're in this with Khelv. Flameaxe pointed out the mistake, and because you couldn't let such a slip go, you jumped on it. Now you DON'T want to lynch Khel, despite scumminess. I really don't think that anyone but scum would have made the same slip up as Khel, and I actually want to catch scum this game. You don't want to catch scum? Your choice! But I'm staying with lynching Khel.

Do you think that I'm scumbuddies with Kinetic, too? I also agree with Guardian that Kinetic is protown, or were you ignoring that so you could place more suspicion on Guardian?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I believe Khel is possibly a retarded townie, but I'd rather just let him live for now. I would not be miffed if the vig decided to kill him, but that is their choice.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Yosarian2

As good a lynch as any.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh? How much are you willing to bet that Guardian is a lyncher? Stake your life on it? I think you're the lyncher.

[Mastermind of Sin]

fos: mos

just cuz it rhymes doesn't mean you should do it. I'm obvtown. Although me being scum would be awesome for the town, because you just confirmed protown the cop, priest, vig, governor, etc. Now we don't have to pardon anyone! Good detective work, Skruffs. Glad to have you around.

[Mastermind of Sin]

re: MOS:

While he is obvtown, I'd like to point out that this post...

Oh? How much are you willing to bet that Guardian is a lyncher? Stake your life on it? I think you're the lyncher.

...makes no sense. Lynching the lyncher is a bad lynch for the town - it more or less equates to a nolynch.

There are a few exceptions, of course; it's usually good for the town to kill survivors before they side with scum, and given that the lyncher isn't trying to kill scum, he's slightly detrimental to the town. But a lynch not going after scum is a bad one, especially at this point in the game, in my humble opinion.

If the lyncher would just claim, I'd be more than willing to not lynch them, because helping them win gets rid of the distraction of having a lyncher around. If the lyncher doesn't claim, it's their own fault when they get lynched. Any lyncher dumb enough to stay silent at this point deserves to lose the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

re: MOS:

While he is obvtown, I'd like to point out that this post...

Oh? How much are you willing to bet that Guardian is a lyncher? Stake your life on it? I think you're the lyncher.

...makes no sense. Lynching the lyncher is a bad lynch for the town - it more or less equates to a nolynch.

There are a few exceptions, of course; it's usually good for the town to kill survivors before they side with scum, and given that the lyncher isn't trying to kill scum, he's slightly detrimental to the town. But a lynch not going after scum is a bad one, especially at this point in the game, in my humble opinion.

Disagree. You have to remember, the lyncher basically is a scum. Basically, there are two things a townie has; his vote, and his mind/words to try to find scum with. The lyncher's vote and his mind/words will both be used consistantly for anti-town ends, making him an inherent liability.

You are right that a survivor will side with the scum in lynch or lose; well, obveously so will a lyncher (or should I say, the scum will side with the lyncher, piling on his vote). So mathmatically, we have to act like we're dealing with a scum group of 5 right now, instead of a scum group of 4. Or, in another scenerio, if there were 11 people left and the lyncher were to then sucees in getting his target lynched, then the target dies, the lyncher vanishes, and the scum kills and wins, so that's another way the lyncher could suddenly lose us the game by losing us a day before lynch or lose.

Besides that, if we either lynch or vig the lyncher (and thus find out he's a lyncher, which we wouldn't if the mafia accidently kills him) then we can figure out who his target is, which gives us another confirmed innocent.

Meh. At this point, yes, I would rather lynch a scum then the lyncher. And yes, if the lyncher claims, he is no longer an early-game threat (unless we carelessly put someone at lynch -1) and thus we don't need to lynch him right away. Other then that, though, I'd be nearly as happy finding and lynching the lyncher today as I would be about finding and lynching a mafia goon.

Why do I even bother anymore? I put in all that hard work, and Yos2 is completely oblivious and keeps making retarded posts like this. That's it. I'm not even going to bother anymore. Congrats, you've made me not care.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The lyncher is not town, but the lyncher is *not* a threat to the town if we help them win early on. Any lyncher that stays quiet and doesn't claim is making themselves a threat to the town, and we'll have to lynch them later on. If they claim today, we can help them win and get them out of the way. If they don't claim, we'll have to make them lose. Yos2 doesn't understand what I'm saying or he wouldn't be making posts like that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Exactly. Why would scum go out of their way to protect the lyncher? The lyncher is only a threat to the scum, unless we get later in the game and he becomes a survivor. The longer we wait to get the lyncher out of the game, the more likely he'll become a problem for us. I would much rather trade one bad lynch for someone who's going to screw with us later in the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I see no reason why the lyncher shouldn't come out. You may not think it's going to happen, but I see no reason for it not to happen. We can help the lyncher win, so they should claim. It's a win-win situation for everyone except the mafia, so there's no reason not to go along with the plan, unless you're scum. The town should have no problem with the lyncher claiming, but Yos does. That's part of the problem. The lyncher claiming only hurts the scum, but no one else. Hence, it's a reasonable assumption that Yos could be scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

we're on the same page, then. Earlier, you were saying we should treat the lyncher as anti-town and lynch them, when they can win if they claim today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, I disagree totally with helping the lyncher win. That means we waste a lynch on a confirmed protown player. If that happens, we lose both the lyncher and the townie, lowering our numbers.

I do agree that the lyncher should claim, but I don't see it happening. I think it makes it a little harder on the lyncher. If he does not claim, and even if he does claim, I don't think we can view the lyncher as protown. The only benefit we get is by knowing that he is not scum. The fact is, he is going to be going after one person, confusing and distancing us from the scum. Should we waste a lynch on him? I do not think so. Should we help him win? That is also a no. Should the lyncher claim? I would like it to happen, but I just don't see the lyncher doing it if he hasn't done it yet.

I would rather the Lyncher claim, and the only way the lyncher will claim is if we are willing to help them win, and I think that's a damn good deal, because I'd rather help them win now than have to deal with them later. I see no reason to turn the Lyncher into an enemy. We should help them now, so we don't have to worry about it later. We can afford one mislynch, because it was probably going to happen anyway.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lyncher should claim today. The longer we wait, the more trouble it causes. Lyncher, if you want to win, claim today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Apparently so. Can we get a vote count?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Khelvaster, what do you think of Tarhalindur? He *is* voting you, after all...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Gorrad, please explain how Guardian has played stupidly. I want to see if you can back up your own accusation.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Guardian, gorrad did respond. Did you miss that post?

[Mastermind of Sin]

The cop and other power roles. That's up to the doc to decide which one to protect. No need giving the scum an advantage in knowing who will get protected.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fuck it. Coolbot has me convinced.

Unvote, Vote: Khelvaster

His play makes perfect sense as a scum ploy, not much sense as townie or doc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic, Khelvaster is not an idiot new player. He's been around for a reasonable amount of time, actually.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Indeed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Erm, did he turn out to be scum or town there?

I debated so hard whether to say scum or town to this. I say scum, and he realizes it's this game, then the point gets across. I say town, and he still thinks it's another game, and he thinks that Khelv was inconsistent with his protown opinion.

Options, Options.

[Mastermind of Sin]

:goodposting:

[Mastermind of Sin]

Guardian wanting to quit should not be considered an indicator of alignment. If anything, I feel that he's more likely to do it as town than scum, because he's fed up with people not seeing the obvious. If he was scum, he's obviously not protown, so people who don't believe him shouldn't believe him, since he's scum. That's less reason to get frustrated with the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

FoS: Yos2

You don't know Guardian very well, do you? Just becuase you "seen scum get frustrated and ask to get replaced quite often", that has no bearing on whether or not Guardian would do it. This whole argument from you sounds like bullshit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I believe it happens slightly more often for town than scum, although not much stock should be put in it either way. My point was, if you were going to put any weight in it at all, it should lean towards the protown side.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yup. That just supports my argument even more.

[Mastermind of Sin]

IF TOUWN ARE ALREADY STATISTICALLY MOURE LIKELY TOU REPLACE THAN SCOUMZ, THIS SOUPPOURTS MY ASSERTIOUN THAT ANYOUNE WHOU REPLACES IS MOURE LIKELY TOU BE TOUWN, DOUH! GIVEN MY THEOURY THAT TOUWN GET FROUSTRATED MOURE OUFTEN THAN SCOUMZ, IT C'PLES WITH THE POUINT KINETIC BR'GHT OUP TOU MAKE MY ARGOUMENT EVEN MOURE COURRECT.

TAKE THAT, SH'NBA!

[Mastermind of Sin]

3 > 1, THEREFOURE MOURE TOUWN REPLACETH THAN SCOUMZ, WEOURE NOUT TALKINGETH AB'T RATIOUS, WEOURE TALKINGETH AB'T NOUMBERS, STRAIGHT OUP.

[Mastermind of Sin]

PERHAPS THATOUS TROUE, BOUT Y' FOURGET THAT THE REST OUF MY THEOURY BOUMPS Y'R RATIOUS TOUWARDS THE TOUWN ANYWAY.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mafia 64 and Mini 458 both have this game beat, to say the least. Shadowlurker is dreaming. Shit, he's so proud of his page record, and a freaking mini game beat him. Lolz.

I agree that Shanba is probably protown. That being said, we should stop talking about which power role is most likely town, and worry about finding scum, cuz it feels like all of us are just spamming around right now. I don't even remember who I suspect anymore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There is nothing logical in a townie asking the doctor to protect him on the offchance that scum might kill him. I'd lose Khelvaster in a heartbeat if it meant all our power roles survive the night.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, fuck it.

Unvote, Vote: Guardian

If he is scum with Kinetic, he will die. If Kinetic is town, he will pardon Guardian, proving himself. However, if Guardian gets pardoned, I think the case against him is less strong (not clearing him, but there are no ties with kinetic other than possible scum latching on). I think we should vig someone OTHER than Guardian if Kinetic pardons him. I think we should keep track of a "VIG: " list for tonight. The person with the most VIG votes at lynch time should be the one killed.

Vig: curiouskarmadog

Vig Count:

CKD - (MoS)

[Mastermind of Sin]

If Kinetic is scum, the chances of Guardian being scum are much higher. If Kinetic is town, I agree that Guardian could still be scum, but not nearly enough that I would want him vigged right after Kinetic proved there wasn't a scumbuddy link between them.

Unvote, Vote: Khelvaster

We can pardon his lynch and then vig him. This way, even if by some miracle he is the doctor, he can still make sure our power roles don't die tonight. Then he'll die for being a fucking douchebag who made the worst play that I have ever seen a protown person make. If he's scum, he'll still die.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think we should use it because it not only proves you, but then we can still kill Khelv tonight. On the offchance that he IS the doc, killing him today would be bad. Although, if Kinetic is scum and doesn't pardon Khelv, I'd trade the chance that Khelv is the doc for proof that Kinetic is scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

GAH. Ok...if we don't use the governor today, we get two solid chances at scum. I'm going to go with that idea. Kinetic, don't pardon today, please, unless of course you really think they are protown.

Through process of elimination, I am nearly 100% sure that at least one of these four people are scum. We should lynch from this list today, and while I respect the vig's right to choose anyone to kill tonight, I strongly suggest they look at this list.

01. Sefer
03. Pie_is_good
10. Tarhalindur Mert
14. Yosarian2

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

I think he's our best chance at finding scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

try within the last two pages

that's some of it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Guardian. Khelv is not on the list because I don't want to lynch him today, on the chance he is actually the doc. Pie is on the list because he is a crafty bastard who has said

all the right things

so far this game. He has played a near-perfect show of townieness, and that's what bothers me. It's not normal for pie to look extremely protown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I just meant that I thought I'd said something about you recently. That's all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS -- thoughts on scotmany?

under the radar, but probably 5th after my list of 4, tied with Gorrad. Gorrad seems to be a really bad townie, though. Not as much scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Heh.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let's lynch that guy I'm voting already.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos2 is right -- "NO THEY DON'T".

Seriously, days >20 pages suck. We need a lynch, that's why I'm willing to hammer almost half the living players.

Days > 20 pages suck unless you are Mini 458

Unvote, Vote: Tar

I'm not particularly interested in trying to WIFOM whether or not that was a gambit. Let's just kill him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lynch/Vig

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic, do not pardon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^What he said.

By the way, now that tonight has passed and I didn't successfully bait a kill, I might as well reveal that I *did* get my mason partner Night 1. I won't say if they are alive or died tonight, but I *can* prove myself at any given moment should I need to, whether or not my partner is alive. So don't worry about it.

Kinetic, what Gorrad slip?

Btw I feel so much better about suspecting Gorrad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: scotmany

Pretty sure he is scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Scotmany is scum. You heard it from me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Skruffs, I can confirm myself at any time. I have very carefully coded my partner's name into a post on D1 so that the scum couldn't find it. If I am partnered with a power role, I make myself a target for the scum, because I can talk to a power role at night, especially if it was IH or another role with a result. If I am partnered with a claimed townie, I make myself *not* a target, which means the scum don't have to WIFOM about whether or not to kill me. I can confirm myself it there really gets enough people that think I am scum, but until then it's advantageous to keep the scum in the dark.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think it's a bad idea because you've just encouraged everyone to mindlessly bandwagon according to Shanba's wishes. This is bad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No I don't remember it. And Shanbawagon sounds dumb. I don't trust Shanba, why would I want to mindlessly bandwagon after him? I happen to agree with him that scotmany is scum, but that doesn't mean I trust him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't.

That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to let people bandwagon without giving their own opinions.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Scotmany wagon excluded, of course. Wagons on people I think are scum are fine.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The middle of Skruffs' list seems the most scummy to me.

curiouskarmadog (Hmmm)
Yosarian (Scum?)
CoolBot (Pushing Khel and defending(kinda) Guardian)
Pie_is_good
scotmany

We have 3 Mafia and a lyncher left, and I think most if not all of those 4 are in this grouping.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Skruffs, expressing suspicion of me is a known scum tell. Cut it out.

And Skruffs -- you wouldn't trade a doctor for a scum today? I would gladly trade the doctor for another scum and get the scum's number's down to 2.

I'm going to

vote: Skruffs

. I haven't really liked his play, and he is acting questionable recently too.

Stop making me want to vote you. Vote for scotmany again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, you know I'm townz, you don't want to vote for me.

WHY should I vote scot? I really liked his response to me most recent question, tbh, as jerkish as it was .

Why Yos?

Why not Pie?

Unvote, Vote: Pie

He's just lurking through the day.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The doc should choose one of Flameaxe and Shanba. 'nuff said.

Whoever the doc is, they should listen to this and do it, even if it is Skruffs.

I may be a target tonight, and that's fine. However, I don't want to give the scum the option of killing our cop yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, I'd argue Yos2 is lurking more than Pie. Pie may have just forgotten about the game. Yos2 is actively contributing only tangentially.

Mos?

Even when pie posted he wasn't helping. Although that doesn't mean I don't suspect Yos. We have a pretty good chance of hitting scum today. I would lynch most of the claimed townies. I trust Skruffs and Guardian marginally. That's about it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

kk, guardian, you were right.

Unvote, Vote: Yos

We've got our play for today. That seemed like an incredibly

safe

post to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If that was true, we would've lynched someone by now. Nothing is stopping you from pointing out scumtells. At least, after you're dead, we can look back upon your comments and actually trust them. But since you have like >50% chance of being scum, I don't see why I should trust anything you say. Therefore I look for possible scumtells in your posts, and they're there. Hence my vote. There's nothing random about it, and I'm certainly not ignoring scumtells.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think both of those two people are idiots. Not really scum. Khelv I'm torn on, but as long as he is alive, if he is scum, the mafia can't kill Shanba, because if Shanba dies, that means Khelv lied about being the doc. So Khelv living for now protects our doc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I will not be able to post until next week. I have an Ultimate tournament this weekend.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not really. It's pretty straightforward. Khelv is alive, which keeps Shanba alive. For now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

or something.

Can someone outline the case against Yosarain? I don't recall him doing anything scummy enough we should ignore the two people trying to draw doc protection from our cop.

This is kinda how I'm feeling right now. This is a game about the hard evidence (the massclaim info and such). Attempting to misdirect the power roles is a more serious offense than generic scummery - scum pretty much

have

to misdirect the power roles at some point.

The method in which it was done is suicide for scum. The cases they made were barely defensible, no scum would come out that obvious. I have directed power roles as scum before, you never just come out and say
"X should target Y" unless you have a really strong case behind it. I don't think either of them would come out with it so strongly if they were scum. I'd expect them to test the waters and then back off if it doesn't seem like it'd work.

re: MOS

All I can really say in my defense of lurkitude is that I didn't post anywhere on the forums this past week, and you can be pretty sure I didn't avoid all of mafiascum just so I could lurk in one game.

I really don't get what you're getting at.

I've just got my eye on you, that's all. The lurking only made me more suspicious, but that's fine that you were gone. *shrug*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic,

Who is to say that my current playstyle is not helping the town? If a BW develops because I am not putting forth "much effort" and my innocence is discovered, all that information of who was on the wagon, why, and when will still be there.

I feel like my current playstyle is probably helping out the town the most...

How? The people going after you the most are power roles. Only one of us can be scum, and we pretty much all think you're scum. That's a horrible theory to support using your current playstyle.

I would like MoS to claim who he targetted (as a mason) today, so he cant fall back on "the person I targetted is dead"..I am sure he has breadcrumbed, but I would rather have a confirmation than a crumb. I feel like a confirmation and an acknowledgement (from the mason partner) would help.

No.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The correct question is, how

would

it help the town?

Skruffs, I can confirm myself at any time. I have very carefully coded my partner's name into a post on D1 so that the scum couldn't find it. If I am partnered with a power role, I make myself a target for the scum, because I can talk to a power role at night, especially if it was IH or another role with a result. If I am partnered with a claimed townie, I make myself *not* a target, which means the scum don't have to WIFOM about whether or not to kill me. I can confirm myself it there really gets enough people that think I am scum, but until then it's advantageous to keep the scum in the dark.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The correct question is, how

would

it help the town?

Skruffs, I can confirm myself at any time. I have very carefully coded my partner's name into a post on D1 so that the scum couldn't find it. If I am partnered with a power role, I make myself a target for the scum, because I can talk to a power role at night, especially if it was IH or another role with a result. If I am partnered with a claimed townie, I make myself *not* a target, which means the scum don't have to WIFOM about whether or not to kill me. I can confirm myself it there really gets enough people that think I am scum, but until then it's advantageous to keep the scum in the dark.

well, I have a feeling that the crumb will be needed before the game is out..but you are right..AT THIS POINT, with so many vanillas remaining cant see how it will help...

what happens if your mason buddy is dead before you claim? All we have is a crumb..no confirmation, wouldnt having that info be important in a lylo situation?

Perhaps, but I don't think I'm going to survive that long. The scum will see me as a threat just because they don't know whether or not I *am* a threat. They might not kill me now, because they have bigger fish to fry, but I won't survive.

The only thing I am wary of is that mos could be partnered with mafia. Mos- are you 100% sure that your partner is town?

Definitely not sure.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: I'm not going to protect my partner unless I think they are town. I am more than willing to vote and attack them. I can do that without revealing my partner, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Skruffs, drop it.

And I agree that Coolbot is probably scum. Coolbot, Yos2, scotmany, CKD. At least 2 are scum. Let's pick one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, flame, you're willing to kill Coolbot tonight, right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree with the above statement.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok I reread, and I am stuck betwen yos, skruffs, and coolbot for today. I would not be surprised if they are all scum. CKD also caught my eye. I dislike how he is sitting back and only following flame basically. I would like a votecount before I vote, but I am leaning towards yos.

Why has khel been basically forgotten about? I do not think he is the play for today, but the posts that he have made to day has not looked so good. Another person I think that is sliding by is Sir T. It was interesting that MoS attacked pie for lurking and not for him.

K. Cuz I'm totally not confirmable and therefore it is useful for you to try and create suspicion against me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually I have already confirmed myself. I just haven't shown you where, cuz I'm not stupid enough to help the mafia.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sigh, maybe I'll reread your posts at some point...

Assuming you can break the code, of course.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You try too hard.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Flame, definitely Coolbot if Yos2 is scum. If Yos2 is innocent, try someone like scotmany or CKD. I don't think Khelv or Skruffs need to die yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well we're lynching Yos, so he can't vig him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shanba should not announce who he is investigating. Anyone who suggests that is either scum or stupid, take your pick. Flameaxe announces his vig target, Shanba avoids it. That's all there is to it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Skruffs, please don't sacrifice yourself. You *know* your own alignment, so ckd has a better chance of being scum than you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If coolbot is the lyncher and got Yos lynched, please make Sir Tornado your vig target. Look at how he has only 1 post in this game, then went back to lurking again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm pretty sure I can give you 33% odds of hitting scum today...gotta reread though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's not worth my life to say it. I can clear myself when I need to. I may or may not be partnered with another power role, but the other power roles do trust me. That should be enough for you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree that not much can be taken from Coolbot's posts. It's not *that* important to find out who his target is, anyway. It might clear us a person, but we can never be sure.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I've already explained this before.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Process of elimination leaves me largely suspicious of the following people:

Tier 1:

01. Sir Tornado
03. Pie_is_good
05. scotmany12

Tier 2:

15. Guardian
18. curiouskarmadog

Tier 3:

Shanba
Khelvaster
Kinetic
Skruffs

I am fairly sure that at least 1 scum is in Tier 1, if not both.

[Mastermind of Sin]

By the way, my suspicions are approximately in order. I think Shanba is the most suspicious of Tier 3, tbh.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Sir Tornado

I know he's around and posting in other games. He owes us some posts.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, I'd suspect CKD and scot, of your four. Why are your top two tornado and pie?

Also, can you prove yourself without bad consequences? I'd appreciate it......

Because Sir T and Pie are lurking like mofos. I like CKD's contribution so far, and scotmany's response to pressure yesterday was decent.

If I could prove myself without hurting the town, I would've done it already. Duh.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As far as I heard, I think pie's computer is broken which is why he has not posted in a while. As for why sir t is lurking, I really have no idea.

MoS, is anyone on your tier 3 people who you feel are townish? If so, why do you have khel there?

Yes. Because he looks more likely town than not.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is someone not dead yet? Where are pie and sir t? Why are they not replaced?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd rather not undo the steps I've taken to obfuscate and misdirect the identity of my partner. They *are* still alive, however.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic, what are the numbers if Shanba or you are scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I like a Sir T and Pie replacement. What's up with that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

whoo go kelly

[Mastermind of Sin]

Pie has been "temporarily" without access for over a month, I believe. He's already been replaced in other current games (for example, Blandville). Please replace him, we don't know when he'll be back.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, DGB is probably scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, I just saw Pie on aim today. He said he needs to be replaced, cuz his new compy is still acting up.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am voting for TS based on the presentation of a crackpot theory that doesn't actually make a lot of sense coming from someone that I already saw as likely scum in the first place.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, my claim is rock solid. I am 100% confirmable. Suck it, TS. Suck it long and hard. This is just further proof that your hairbrained analysis is just a bunch of crock. I'm really glad I'm voting you right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nice to see that TS-scum is fishing for my mason partner some more. I don't have to reveal who it is. As long as other power roles have picked up enough clues to confirm me, you need to trust them. Even if they are scum, it doesn't matter. Only 1 power role can be scum, so Kinetic and I can't both be scum, for example. Yet note that TS-scum, who was not around when we established that this was the case, tried to link us together in order to land more suspicion on us. Even more proof that TS is the best vote today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have been giving you a rational explanation. I can't be scum with the other power roles, so the fact that the other power roles can confirm that my "yelling" is correct proves me innocent.

Also, had you done your reread carefully, you would already know who cares whether my partner is revealed or not. It's the mafia who cares.

Skruffs, I can confirm myself at any time. I have very carefully coded my partner's name into a post on D1 so that the scum couldn't find it. If I am partnered with a power role, I make myself a target for the scum, because I can talk to a power role at night, especially if it was IH or another role with a result. If I am partnered with a claimed townie, I make myself *not* a target, which means the scum don't have to WIFOM about whether or not to kill me. I can confirm myself it there really gets enough people that think I am scum, but until then it's advantageous to keep the scum in the dark.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Side note:
I don't think Zindy was the lyncher's target. The lyncher woundup being a lyncher, he would have been a survivor if the lyncher was dead and not lynched, correct?

Yes. Zindie was not the lyncher's target.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only reason I could see Khelv being the doc is if he knows that no one's going to actually give credence to his arguments. I have never felt the need to actually read his posts since he made his doc WIFOM claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd rather give it one more day.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If Shanba dies, I believe there are clues in his posts to pick up who he's investigated. I'm sure they are well hidden, so I'm not going to go through the effort of deciphering it until he's proven protown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And mos, as has been discussed, even if someone had a good feeling about who shanba has targetted, we can only know his alignment if we lynch him. Mafia would happily kill a fake claiming scumbuddy to screw town. So knowing who he's inspected only helps us if we know he's town.

God, if only the scum would kill Shanba to do that. Not only would they lose a scumbuddy, but they'd also lose Khelv-scum for being a lying son-of-a-bitch and not "protecting" Shanba. It'd be the best thing that ever happened to this town. We can only hope they'd do something so stupid.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I will not claim my mason partner today. Period. End of discussion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

For the third fucking time...

Skruffs, I can confirm myself at any time. I have very carefully coded my partner's name into a post on D1 so that the scum couldn't find it. If I am partnered with a power role, I make myself a target for the scum, because I can talk to a power role at night, especially if it was IH or another role with a result. If I am partnered with a claimed townie, I make myself *not* a target, which means the scum don't have to WIFOM about whether or not to kill me. I can confirm myself if there really gets enough people that think I am scum, but until then it's advantageous to keep the scum in the dark.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Khelvaster, you just accused me of planning to kill my mason partner. If I have a mason partner, I can't be scum, and therefore can't kill them. That's why Guardian is voting you.

Also, votes from the likes of Khelvaster and TS are not going to make me reveal my partner. By "people that think I'm scum", I obviously meant

innocent

people. They don't qualify, at all. Especially TS. Nice OMGUS, though. You're doing an impressive job of trying to out the last remaining power role info that the mafia need, but I'm not going to cave on this one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

(A)IF The partner is scum, and confirms MoS is a Mason...

(1) They could both be scum
(2) MoS might be a mason

(B)IF The partner is scum, and does not confirm MoS is a Mason...

(1) We lynch MoS and he is a Mason, the scum mason partner will give himself away. That won't happen. Except if we wait until close to endgame, the scum partner might get away with it. So that's a reason not to delay this indefinitely - and to get the information in case MoS is Nk'd.

(C)IF The partner is town, and confirms MoS is a Mason...

(1) They could still both be scum
(2) MoS is for sure a mason, 100%

(D)IF The partner is town, and does not confirms MoS is a Mason...

(2) MoS is for sure scum, 100%

I hope I didn't get mixed up.

If the partner does not confirm MoS (situation D) that's a no-brainer, only, we can't wait until endgame because then a scumpartner might find it a good strategy not to confirm MoS.

If the partner does confirm MoS, when the partner dies, MoS can be solidly confirmed. If MoS dies, that does not confirm the partner's innocence.

I just don't see a down side. For the town. Did I miss anything?

Just wanted to go back and point out how bullshit this argument is. Take situation C, for example. If you are assuming that the person is town, both of us being scum is

not an option

. You already accounted for them being scum in a different separation, your reference to it here is a misleading analysis of the possibilities. It also fails to take into account whether I am partnered with a power role or a townie AND the fact that if I am partnered with a townie there is no reason for me to NOT act as if I could be partnered with a power role.

Khelvaster, you just accused me of planning to kill my mason partner. If I have a mason partner, I can't be scum, and therefore can't kill them. That's why Guardian is voting you.

You misinterpreted me. I was talking about your claimed/crumbed mason partner. You could have crumbed regardless of whether you were mason or not.

Also, votes from the likes of Khelvaster and TS are not going to make me reveal my partner. By "people that think I'm scum", I obviously meant

innocent

people. They don't qualify, at all. Especially TS. Nice OMGUS, though. You're doing an impressive job of trying to out the last remaining power role info that the mafia need, but I'm not going to cave on this one.

What the fuck.

Vote: MoS

Saying who you chose n1 means nothing. The person you chose could have been mafia for all we know. Fact is, it's a role-neutral thing. The mafia know who's mafia and who's not. If you say someone was your target, that person isn't confirmed.

You knew this, and yet you still didn't claim. The only possible, logical conclusion is that you are scum.

No. I have never and will never try to

confirm

my mason partner's alignment through my claim. My claim has nothing to do with my partner. It's only about confirming me. The only relation my partner has is their role. And their role makes all the difference here, which is why I'm not claiming.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Take situation C, for example. If you are assuming that the person is town, both of us being scum is

not an option

. You already accounted for them being scum in a different separation, your reference to it here is a misleading analysis of the possibilities.

It's like a 2 x 2 table. One condition being your partner's alignment, and the other condition whether the partner chooses to confirm your claim or not.

Then let's organize it as a table to get this through your thick, scummy skull.

Partner Alignment - Scum | Town
Confirm Mason -------- A - | - C
Not Confirm Mason --- B - | - D

If the situation is C, my partner

cannot

be scum! The prerequisite facts to

reach

situation C is that my partner is innocent and confirms me as a mason. Therefore, neither of us can be scum in that situation. You can't just take a situation and nullify one if it's prerequisites to get a new conclusion. That's some pretty scummy misrepresentation, TS.

It also fails to take into account whether I am partnered with a power role or a townie.

It makes not difference whether you are partnered with vanilla or power role - because as far as the rest of us are concerned, that's your chosen partner's CLAIM - not true role, and he can be lying to you as he is lying to the rest of the town. Power role or townie - NO DIFFERENCE.

And their role makes all the difference here, which is why I'm not claiming.

It makes no difference. The partner's role may be a sham for all you know.

It makes no difference to the

town

. It

does

make a difference to the

mafia

who know whether or not my partner is lying about their role. I'm not claiming because it helps the scum. I have never implied that my lack of claim helps the town in any way except hurting the scum, which obviously helps the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You said, and I will fucking quote you right here:

(C)IF The partner is town, and confirms MoS is a Mason...

(1) They could still both be scum
(2) MoS is for sure a mason, 100%

This

assumes

BOTH that the partner is town AND that they confirm me as a mason. It's simple logic, here. If P, then Q. P happens to be a two-part conditional that you clearly established in this post. There are 4 different conditionals, and you are acting as if there are only two, when you clearly defined four. You defined your conditionals, and then listed a result, Q, that defied one of your conditionals. That is a fallacious argument, and your statement breaks down.

You did not present your arguments as "If we use what the town knows, then...". You presented your arguments as "If this is factual, then..." Then you tried to insinuate that if my partner is town, we could both be scum. You can backpedal all you want, but I'm pretty sure I know a hell of a lot more about discrete mathematics than you do. Discrete isn't complicated really, but a lot of people have trouble understanding the concept.

LIE about his role UNLESS HE'S SCUM? [/size] How would that help the scum? Can you illustrate with a fictional example? I totally don't see your point of view. Please explain very slowly, step by step. Never forget how idiotic I am, or I'll have to remind you

That's not what I said at all. The mafia

already

know whether or not everyone is lying about their role, because they know who the mafia are. Therefore, no matter *who* I claim my partner to be, the mafia know that person's role. If I am partnered with a power role, that makes me a threat that the mafia need to eliminate. If I am partnered with scum or a townie, I'm a waste of a kill. By claiming my partner, I let them know whether or not they need to kill me. I'd much rather make them agonize through the WIFOM instead of spelling it out for them. If my lack of claim made them kill me tonight, I'd just be happy that I gave Shanba another chance to investigate someone that matters. I am not important in this game besides who I am partnered to. I will reveal it in due time, but this is not that time. You're barking up the wrong tree, scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Your patience is much appreciated.

However, there are two KNOWN conditions (confirm vs. no confirm) and two UNKNOWN conditions (scum vs. town) - so we can only look at the KNOWN condition, and deduce the outcomes that are implied when applying the unknown conditions.

You are explaining it as if we had two sets of KNOWN conditions - but that's not the case, as I have explained above.

I never said they were known conditions. I said that

you

were treating them as known conditions by listing four different conditionals. There are only 2 situations, not 4. However, you defined them as 4 separate conditions. Under that progression of logic, you can't take away a scum result for situation C.

You said it yourself. "...deduce the outcomes that are implied when

applying

the unknown conditions." If we are applying the unknown conditions, that means we are separating the possible values of the unknown conditions and looking at the outcomes that they bring. Therefore, if you apply the "partner is town" part of the unknown condition, you

cannot

conclude that we are both scum as a result of that application.

The mafia doesn't know your partner's role... whether you have picked that player to be mason with or not, makes no difference as to that player's claim or its credibility, not matter what the chosen partner's alignment or role is.

What does this have to do with anything?

[Mastermind of Sin]

For fuck's sake, why did it take three people explaining what I've already been telling you this whole goddamn time for you to unvote me? Are you really that retarded? I'm asking this question seriously. It was not a hard argument to understand, and I have a higher opinion of your intelligence than you think I do. But you continually prove my opinion wrong. It's a good thing you're scum in this game, because that would have disastrous consequences on my judgement of you. To think that I'd been wrong this whole time would just be bad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not trying to have class. I'm trying to catch scum. You're obstructing that goal.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Being wrong about you being scum will not concern me. It's progress for the town regardless.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Being wrong about you being scum will not concern me. It's progress for the town regardless.

If you're not scum, I am pretty sure the scum loves you in this game.

Yes, I'm sure that the scum absolutely love the fact that I was a main proponent of the mass claim, which severely reduced their chances of winning. I'm sure they also were overjoyed at the fact that I figured out Yosarian was scum, too. And I'm sure they're absolutely marvelous now that another buddy is about to die.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hey Hey Hey, I called Yos and Gorrad scum day 1. Let's not get ahead of ourselves MOS.

I didn't claim sole responsibility for anything. I did call Yos2 on Day 1 as well, though. That's really beside the point, anyway.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks for claiming scum, TS.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd just like to point out that my actions in this game are only motivated by the fact that I believe TS to be scum, both from her own actions and her predecessor's, as well as process of elimination. Not that this statement means much now, but after she's dead she can check with the mod and find out that I'm actually not lying about this. Of course, that's just assuming that she may actually be town. Not that it matters at the moment, because I believe she's already been lynched.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think the one who's not being objective here is you. I'm only voting you in two games right now, that's not "doing this across the entire site". I have reason to believe you are scum in both games where I am voting you, and neither of them are anything but me playing the game.

Considering the little hissy-fit you just threw because I'm voting you, I'd have to say that you *do* care. Or you're just completely bullshitting all of us. Take your pick.

Shame that you aren't dead yet. Someone wanna help out?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm only voting you in two games right now, that's not "doing this across the entire site".

That's because you have been ridiculed for it. You had to back down. In some games, people care, they are respectful, they expect that others will play the game in earnest and treat each other in a friendly manner. In this game... well, I have to say that Guardian and CKD have earned my respect.

I *had* to back down? Bullshit. I moved on with actual cases because voting you

doesn't matter to me

. Get that through your head. I don't actually care whether I vote you or not. I'm voting you because I believe you're scum, and no other reason.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Can we find out TS's role now?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm gonna go out on a limb. Kinetic,

pardon DGB

. I think we'll benefit from this in the long run, and I'd rather do this now than later. I have a gut feeling that this will help us. Just trust me, please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think lynching Shanba is the way to go today. I do not believe one bit that Shanba did not get a choice in. I would also be very disappointed in a mod that did not prod people with night choices before ending the night, and we all know Shanba has been around the site enough to have received a prod if it was sent. I think it's bullshit because Shanba does not want to clear everyone.

Vote:Shanba

Time to die.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Interesting..., so then Shanba isn't your partner MOS? I always thought that was the case and that Shanba's results were safe with you...

[Mastermind of Sin]

We are considering a power role because the chance we get it wrong is much lower.

We are considering a power role because Shanba is stalling in order to keep from clearing too many people before the mafia gains enough percentage of the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was waiting to get a response from MoS about my investigation choice and didn't get back on before deadline. Yes, I know, I screwed up.

Gorrad innocent n1, Skruffs n2, CKD n3.

Unvote

I was going to say that Shanba is full of shit. He messaged me about the night kill on Sunday Dec 9th at 9:40 am. I pmed him back confirming that he should investigated Khelvaster on Sunday Dec 9th at 2:34 pm. Day Dawned on Thursday Dec 13th at 7:55 am. However, Shanba did not post between 11:21 am on Sunday Dec 9th and 10:48 pm on Thursday Dec 13th, when he informed us he had not sent a choice. So unless you believe that he purposefully neglected the entire site just to stall in this game, he could still be telling the truth. Personally, I think it would be rather unethical for him to say that, so I don't want to vote him today.

Vote: YvonneSeer

I think that's our best bet today. Kinetic, as far as the Skruffs investigation goes, Skruffs is correct that I indicated to him he was investigated. Read his post on the last page and you'll realize that he figured it out based on my actions, not from some mystical connection with Shanba.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I pointed out my suspicions of shanba possibly being scum claiming cop and feeding info to mos to be revealed after he died day two or three. Mos indicated ckd hadn't been investigated on day three, and he was investigated that night.

unvote

At least everything, claimed or otherwise, is out in the open.

With four claimed power roles, two claimed inspections, then if everone is telling the truth, anyone we lynch today will be scum or miller. Khel dies, shanba gets another investigation.
If we lynch a. Guilty today, we continue trusting shanba until proven otherwise
If we lynch an innocent today, then one of the power roles are lying: khel still protects shanba tonight and we lynch shanba tomorrow.
If he is not telling the truth, we got scum, and if he is, it confirms me, ckd, and his target tonight, which is 3 confirmed players out of 5, the next day which is still a town win.
If he is not telling the truth then we have 1 cleared town out of 5 the day after shanba is lynched (whichever power role isn't killed) and we will have to do it the old fashioned way.

How does this sound?

Well, as you can probably tell by my willingness to vote Shanba today, I wasn't just going to believe everything he had said if the mafia killed him in a gambit. But thanks for the concern.

I like your plan, Skruffs. Let's do it.

Also, I told you all I was town. Toaster Strudel shouldn't have pushed it...*sigh*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Skruffs, then why aren't you voting Yvonne?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: scotmany

Wheeee

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Guardian

Shanba better investigate Kinetic. No excuses this time. Am I correct in assuming that Skruffs and myself are confirmed since there is only one scum left now, and Shanba confirmed Skruffs? Whoohoo!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Guardian, just fess up Kinetic isn't going to save you regardless.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, you'll be dead.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Indeed. Kill him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Kinetic

I want to lynch a power role!

Skruffs, CKD, with me!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Just ignore Kinetic, plz.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Look at Kinetic try to squirm in there. It's not possible for me to break the site rules because the mod informs you when you've been contacted by the mason. Not that it matters, because if I had broken the site rules, I'd have been modkilled/banned faster than you can say "Kinetic is a lying, squirming scum".

Skruffs, Kinetic was obviously afraid of having the game end today. Shanba had guaranteed that he would investigate Kinetic, so Kinetic had to kill him in order to have any chance of winning. Now he's trying to stall for another day, hoping that he can somehow get out of being lynched tomorrow. Since we win either way, it's pretty obvious that Kinetic's actions make him scum. Not to mention the way he opportunistically jumped on the mass claim idea behind me and Guardian to make himself look better. =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wanting to lynch a power role is only a secondary reason to your actions today. Yesterday you were willing to be lynched today, today you're doing anything you can to convince us that we should lynch Yvonne first. The change in attitude belies your supposed stance on this issue. If you're protown, you should have no problem being lynched. Having the game take longer is not a good reason for your actions. A protown person would have already hammered himself so that we can end the day faster and kill Yvonne tomorrow. In fact, why would we have to wait 72 hours if you are the governor? You can't veto yourself, so if you're telling the truth, we won't have to wait at all. Since we find out your role when we lynch you, we shouldn't have to wait unless you aren't actually the governor. And if you aren't the governor, you're scum. So go ahead and hammer yourself to end the game faster, please. You're just protracting it by making these silly arguments.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Yvonne

[Mastermind of Sin]

We didn't think Guardian was scum, not really. But we had the game won at that point, so there was no reason not to lynch the person the cop got a guilty on.

Also, yay for mass claim working. That was tech.

Oh, and just for those people that are not clear on this, I did NOT select my mason partner after the mass claim, although that would've broken the setup even more. I was masoned to the cop based on a dice roll random selection that I pmed to Jathan during the first night. I just didn't want the mafia to have any idea of what I *had* done, and whether or not it was worth killing me. Apparently the plan worked, because I got away with being masoned to Shanba even though I thought it was obvious after like Day 2, maybe earlier. -_-

^5 to Guardian and Kinetic. We pwned that mass claim, guys. This is the first game where I've been a main component in engineering a Day 1 mass claim. My other game isn't done yet, but I died the night after making them mass claim, so I have no influence over the game anymore. :/

Good game everyone!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Holy crap Shanba's only been here a year? :O

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't get any awesome points for nailing pie?

Also, I claim joint responsibility for the mass claim. Teamwork rules! ^5 Guardian