Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[CoolBot]

vote: Urzassedatives

I so love highly useful first posts.

[CoolBot]

Mass claim is a bad idea, especially since scum know the roles of dead and the town doesn't. Since he's pushing it so hard, and the damned haikus,

unvote: Urzassedatives
vote: Guardian

[CoolBot]

I'm not convinced yet. If the scum don't play ball and end up counter claiming a power role, we'd have to lynch both of them to be sure we get the scum. So if all three goons do this, we lose our vig, inspector, & priest and leave the GF hiding among the townies.

[CoolBot]

Guardian, the haiku thing is extremely annoying. I really wish you'd drop it. Same with the limericks with Gorrad.

[CoolBot]

But for the love of all that is holy stop speculating on what the mafia should claim, or what they might claim, or how they could claim this and that! All who have already done so are greatly suspect, telling the mafia how to work around the mass claim is idiocy!

Let me get this straight: you plan may have a hole in it. But we can't bring up because scum might see it? That's ridiculous. If there's a way to screw with any plan, we have to close it up - and we can't do that without discussing it. We can't just assume scum are idiots.

[CoolBot]

I understand him, too. I just disagree: if there's a hole, we should close it instead of hoping scum don't see it.

[CoolBot]

If the scum are on their game, they don't need us to point it out. I really don't like the way MoS and Guardian are ramming this down our throats by cutting off any debate about

possible

problems with their plans. If they are so confident mass claiming is fool proof, they should let us discuss it and be sure before agree to it.

[CoolBot]

[quote="Guardian']Let's NOT bring up all the possible things scum could do and analyze the pros and cons of each -- that is such a ridiculously bad idea that I can't believe you are suggesting it. [/quote]All I'm trying to do is figure is if the mass claim is a good idea or not. I see some potential problems and bring it up. Instead of pointing out my error or changing the plan to take care of the problems, you attack me for helping scum. Don't you see how this is a bit irritating, and doesn't help convince me at all?

[CoolBot]

I feel you are just arguing because you got it in your head that mass claim is bad. Stop being difficult for being difficult's sake, mass claim is the play here...

This is the attitude that's so grating. There are legitimate objections being brought up in regards to the mass claim. Yet it's proponents, instead of addressing the objections, are characterizing the objectors as stubborn idiots or scum sympathizers. If they were really so sure about their plan, they'd be able to convince us instead of just trying to railroad us.

In particular, I haven't seen anyone address why we shouldn't care if scum counter claim a power role. Without being informed of roles after deaths, we'd have to lynch bot the be sure, right?

If the inspector was killed, that is really unlucky. Even so, it still is better for us us to mass claim.

How so? We'd never lynch him if we follow your plan.

[CoolBot]

So, you're

not

going to try to answer those questions I just posed?

[CoolBot]

I am not at all interested in talking scum strategy here.

But you're certainly willing to let possible loopholes remain open.

We are informed with lynches and vig kills. So if a scum counter claims a power role, if we lynch one of them, we know who was telling the truth.

With regards to lynches, I don't see anything in the rules post that says this is the case. Why do you think that's true?

If his investigation results are ever proven wrong, we know he is scum.

And scum will obligingly give us wrong results? How can we assume this will happen when the Miller is the only result they don't know ahead of time?

[CoolBot]

Because the roles doesn't say that it is NOT the case. I assume that only scum NKs are corpse ripping, as that.. um... makes sense, and is standard.

Why do you think that this is not true?

Standard? The standard is all roles are given when they die. We already know the game is different from the standard, and assuming the exact way it's different without any evidence seems dangerous to me. And IME, it's usually an all or nothing thing anyway.

If the scum killed the cop, claim cop, and then give us all correct results (as they would pretty much have to do) then that is fine -- even though the cop is scum and we have to deal with lynching him later, we *still* get a real investigation result every day.

The issue isn't the quality of the results - at least not directly. If I understand your plan correctly, we mechanically lynch the claimed townies one by one. At what point to we decide to lynch the claimed power roles that may or may not be scum? If we wait until all the townies are dead, that leaves a maximum of five players (assuming doc claims town). If one of them are scum, how do we decide? What if the Inspector and Priest are pointing at each other?

And don't say that's a long time away and we'll address it when and if we get there. If scum happened to hit the Investigator or Priest, we're pretty much guaranteed to end up there and we should discuss it before sending us down that tract.

And you realize you are worrying about a 1/14 chance, right?...

But a real one nonetheless.

[CoolBot]

This is getting really tiresome. You have not convinced me a mass claim is good in all possible cases, yet you are continuing to assert it. I point out where I believe it mght blow up on us and instead of trying to convince me, you attack me as helping scum. Don't you see how this is just a tad frustrating?

[CoolBot]

Corpse ripping is not a term familiar to me, so I did some digging around. In the sign up thread, SL defines it thusly:

This is a corpseripping game which means that the role of mafia kills will not be revealed to the town, only to the mafia. The roles of lynched people WILL be revealed however.

This goes a lot in alaying my concerns about the mass claim. Too bad the proponents couldn't just point this out a few pages ago instead of trying to shut down debate.

[CoolBot]

If action-state-outcome doesn't work for you, how about you try setting this game aside for a day or so

You know, if you had just addressed my concerns instead of try to shut me down, a lot this could have been avoided. And there's no need to club me with obscure game theory.

[CoolBot]

When I first brought out the problem I had with needing to lynch both claimants to a power role, that's when you should've brought up lynched players got their role revealed. It was just that simple. But no, had to attack me for helping scum.

But that's behind us. I understand where you're coming from now, and I'm much more likely to back the plan.

[CoolBot]

Ok, I'm in for the claim, because aparantly I'm missing something here that can't be explained publicly, but, for the record, I think it'll end badly.

Huh? Why are you for the claim if you think it'll go badly?

And please don't blame others for your own ignorance.

I'm not. I just would've been nice to have my mistaken been pointed out to me instead of shot down as scum, is all. Oh, and as to your announcement about claiming soon, I think we should use MoS's list from earlier instead of any ad hoc system. As someone said, it allows less manipulation of the order.

[CoolBot]

ckd, what's your concerns regarding the mass claim? Don't worry about tipping off the scum - the mass claim is powerful here, and will survive most scum tactics. Any if there's any it won't, we need to know so we can plan ahead.

Yosarian, there's a couple reasons why bandwagoning to a claim won't work. First off, we already know what roles are in the game, so scum won't be caught in trying to making a believable role. Secondly, anyone caught by a bandwagon will know that they only have to wait until the mass claim begins, and they're basically off the hook until it's their turn. If Guardian and the others hadn't gone so strongly for mass claim from the beginning, maybe we could bandwagon, but not now.

[CoolBot]

Well, let me put it this way. The big advantage to a bandwagon to a claim is that we get more info that way, from the wagon, then we would by just sitting around and waiting until we mass claim and then lynching one of the people who claim townie.

Oh, I understand that. But with the way the mass claim was presented - immediately proclaiming it the one, true way to catch scum and all those who disagree are low down, dirty scum - bandwagoning was thrown out. There's just no pressure when everyone knows they can wait until the mass claim actually starts.

Y'know, given that this is an open setup, the claim order pretty much doesn't matter at all.

That's a good point. There's zero chance of scum accidentally counter claiming someone in this game, so we shouldn't worry about the order. I'd still like to give everyone a chance to post first, though.

Mass Claim = Pro-Town Strategy
CKD = Reluctant to Mass Claim
Thus...
CKD = Reluctant to help Town by supporting a Pro-Town Strategy.

The problem with this BS logic is if CKD doesn't agree or doesn't see the mass claim is pro-town. But go ahead and continue to vilify him; I'm sure he'll see the light.

[CoolBot]

That's my main problem with Guardian and kinetic, too. The mass claim isn't foolproof and it's not obvious that it's better than the usual bandwagon to claim tactics. Their blind assertion that it is and their refusal to discuss problems with a mass claim does not help people understand their point of view. Nothing they said helped me come around to their side.

But the mass claim is probably the better play. With open roles, scum won't accidentally make bad claims. Further, with the Priest, we don't have to worry about scum counter claiming a killed cop. Finally, with lynched roles being revealed, we do have a way of choosing between two competing claims.

The mass claim is not fool proof, but it does greatly curtail what the scum can do. We can't just drop our scum hunting techniques, since just lynching all the townies does not guarantee a win.

[CoolBot]

How about if the dead body was the cop?

Priest checks should check out the claimed cop. If there's multiple priest, we get their results from both and lynch one of them.

How about if it was the vig?

It'd be obvious after the first night. Scum can't hide there.

in any other scenario, we lose our vig, and we lose our cop pretty fucking early on

If the Angel is doing it's job, it's randomly protecting one of the vig and cop each night. Scum would know those and go after the doc first. So it'll be awhile before we should loss the cop or vig - so long as the doc claims townie.

[CoolBot]

Impossible if the priest is dead, which also out and out loses us the game

Nope. The Priest's sole use to us is to verify the Inspector. If, after lynching the Inspector, we find the Priest lied, we lynch him, or the vig offs him. Scum for a cop is not a bad deal.

If the doc is dead, we also out and out lose the game btw.

I agree it's the worse case scenario, but this isn't remotely true. We will still be hunting scum, not just mechanically lynching random townies.

[CoolBot]

You assume he survives the night, which would leave inspector unconfirmed. You also assume he's not scum, since he's going to know the inspector is town.

If the priest is offed, the Inspector is either scum or scum want us to think so. We can handle that situation. And I already addressed what happens if the Priest is lying: after we lynch the Inspector, we learn the Priest lied, so we lynch him or the vig offs him.

I agree it's the worse case scenario, but this isn't remotely true. We will still be hunting scum, not just mechanically lynching random townies

In the sense of a massclaim it is.

Er, what is in the sense of a mass claim?

[CoolBot]

IIf the priest is offed, the Inspector is either scum or scum want us to think so. We can handle that situation.

Yes, there'd be no neon sign pointing to scum, but we're not a bunch of newbies here. We don't need the Inspector to win. Scum impersonating an Inspector would have to give us true results, or risk being lynched. And sooner or later, suspicion would turn on an Inspector who can't find scum.

[CoolBot]

You just basically gave a way for the scum to basically win the game guardian if they did kill the inspector.

No, if an Inspector doesn't give us any guilty results, we start looking hard at the Inspector. In fact, after a few days, we should anyway. But there's no harm in letting a particular scum go for a day or two. After all, we can't get them all on one day.

[CoolBot]

I know full well it's possible for scum, while impersonation an Inspector, may give us a true result on another scum to clear himself. That's why I said we should look hard at the Inspector after a few days anyway. You know, just like any other game ever played.

Um, the priest is probably about the third most powerful role in the game at this point after the cop and the doc, especally if we're going to mass claim, as the priest can confirm claimed roles as innocents. So I don't think we could read anything like that into the priest getting killed; assuming the doc claims townie, the priest seems a fairly logical target no matter what.

The Priest cannot find scum. He is no threat to them if they don't claim Inspector or Angel.

[CoolBot]

The steadfast tenacity, and general unwillingness to actually want to discuss any negative effects...

Bring something up and I'll discuss it. I've tried to be diligent about doing so and haven't been ignoring anything on purpose. If I missed something, point it out instead lumping me in with Kinetic and Guardian.

[CoolBot]

We already have. It's stalled on someone or other who wanted to give everyone a chance to give their opinion.

[CoolBot]

they should say who they're killing beforehand.

Why? We'll know who the vig targets anyway. By announcing it, we lower the chances that scum will target the same person.

[CoolBot]

It's the chance we take. And the vig telling us who he targets beforehand won't change that anyway.

[CoolBot]

So you're just looking for excuses to not claim now, IH? I can understand not liking a mass claim, but that's ridiculous.

[CoolBot]

Exactly. IH seems to think we'll just stop playing after we claim. I doubt he'll ever be satisfied. I say we start up the mass claim now, and drag him along with us.

Oh, and I hadn't realized I was still voting.

unvote: Guardian

[CoolBot]

I really don't like the way he's acting here, at all. I think we may need to test his claim soon, with the vig ready to kill him if he can't prove his govenor claim.

Testing the claim before any mass claim is a bad idea. If he is lying, the mass claim will prove that out. And I'm not convinced directing the vig is the way to go, anyway.

[CoolBot]

Yes. I don't know why Khel claimed.

pie, I think the vig should choose who to target. The danger of the cop investigating the target is mitigated by the chance the scum will target the same person. I also think the vig should claim so he has at least some protection from the doc.

[CoolBot]

I'm a townie.

[CoolBot]

I don't see any reason the Angel should claim. Yes, this means there will be some uncertainty if the Angel has to claim later, but at least we would have a 2 or 3 nights of doc protect. If he claims, we won't.

The vig should not give us his target. That means we won't have any cross kills with the scum. The risk of the Inspector targeting the same person is acceptable, IMO.

Also, I don't think the Shanba should waste his time checking IH. If IH tells us Shanba isn't the Inspector, we should lynch IH to make sure he's lying first since the Preist's only use is clearing the cop.

As for confirming kinetic, I don't see it as a high priority. But if the lynch doesn't turn out to be a strong one, I don't see any reason he shouldn't confirm himself.

[CoolBot]

how many times is a Day 1 lynch a strong one?

Not often. But I find it's unlikely kinetic is lying and don't want to throw away a lynch if we don't have to.

I also don't think scum have much to worry about from kinetic. He can stop a lynch, but that can help as well as harm them.

[CoolBot]

Wasting the Day 1 lynch is a very bad move. We need a good reason to do so, and simply confirming Kinetic isn't good enough. We can confirm hin any time in the future, not just this day. We should be hunting scum.

It seems IH and CDK are the ones pushing the hardest to burn the Governor's ability and get through day 1 without a lynch. We shouldn't lynch IH yet, since he probably can confirm Shanba. But CDK looks like a good lynch to me.

[CoolBot]

I think Tarhalinder might be the Lyncher. His case against scotmany is ridiculous and he's focused on how the Lyncher and its win conditions. I don't understand the self-vote, but it's probably some WIFOM thing.

Rereading the past few pages, it's only IH that's taking a hard line "pardon or die" approach to Kinetic. Others, such as CDK and Gorrand, want a pardon but don't seem willing to lynch Kinetic over it. I think that's a bit more reasonable, but I still like a lynch today.

[CoolBot]

Untrue. With a massclaim on the table, and thereforte making the nightgame more important than the day game, a no lynch feels like the play here.

It may feel like it, but it isn't. We are racing the scum here. We need to keep pressure on them, and confirming Kinetic doesn't do that.

Town should decide on Flameaxe's vig tonight, so he can prove himself.

The mere existence of a vig kill tonight is enough to confirm him. We should not be directing him.

for the record (cuz I might forget): Kinetic, in theory, Governor is an ability that should never be used.

Untrue.

It is true. Using the governor burns a lynch, so it's best it's never used except in the small number of cases where a no lynch makes sense.

[CoolBot]

Err, yes it does. It keeps the pressure for the scum to keep the number of confirmeds in check. Don't be silly.

Wrong. But confirming Kinetic today, scum do not have to worry about be lynched. Thus, there is no pressure, and scum are less likely to make a mistake we can pounce on.

I still can't believe, after all ya'lls urgings to do a massclaim, you're willing to let a player try to wiggle out of his own plan. = | This is what I view Kinetic doing.

You've lost me. The power of the mass claim was everyone needs to claim early. There's no need to confirm early as well. And since confirming Kinetic results in a lost lynch, we need to have a good reason to. "Cause we mass claimed" is not a good reason.

Unsure why you don't think the town should be directing him?

Directing him means the scum know who he's targeted. The vig will be confirmed by the mere act of vigging - unless the scum target the same person. By publicly directing him, the chances of that happening are much greater.

[CoolBot]

Bandwagoning is the most successful strategy for hunting scum. And if we didn't mass claim, we almost certainly bandwagon. So they are related, and discussing bandwagoning is not scummy.

I really don't see the case against Yosarian. I do see the case against Guardian, but worry much of the reason he is being voted is latent bitterness over how he sold the mass claim.

[CoolBot]

I don't think MoS needs to claim his partner if he has one. Remember, there's no guarantee the partner isn't scum, so there's no guarantee neither of them are lying. So we won't have 100% confirmation until we lynch one of them anyway.

[CoolBot]

Shanba's plan was for Kinetic to block our lynch, and then vigging the lynchee, I think. It puts pressure on the lynchee, so I don't have any objections.

Coded message for the mason sounds like a good idea.

[CoolBot]

I think Shanba's plan is an excellent compromise. It's not exactly what I'd prefer, but it keeps pressure on the lynchee. That's enough for me.

Guardian, there is no way to confirm MoS fully. The best we can do is have MoS target one of the claimed power roles, but even that has it's problems. Coded message works for me.

[CoolBot]

I think getting Khel to explicitly claim is a waste of time. And no, the real doc should not counter claim. If Khel is lying, it will be clear after a night or two.

[CoolBot]

Also Part III of my master plan is still here, so please don't lynch Khel until the real doctor counter claims him.

Why the hell should we wait for the doc to reveal himself? All that accomplishes is a dead doc tonight. We should lynch Khel, or rather, pardon him and vig him tonight, but we don't need a counterclaim to do that.

vote: Khelvaster

[CoolBot]

No, Shanba's right: vig kills aren't as useful. Therefore, using the vig to take out whoever we decide to lynch is a fine idea. And since Kinetic is so het up on the doc claiming, I think it's perfectly reasonable to make him confirm himself.

[CoolBot]

No, we hunt scum. One of the best indicators of scum is someone who won't give a straight claim. Not only did Khel do this, he tried to draw the real doc out in the process. And when the didn't work, he tried to get the doc to protect him instead of someone useful. We should lynch him now.

[CoolBot]

The scummiest person now, by far, is Khel and his mutating claim. I don't see any reason to lynch Yos; bandwagoning is a tried and true statregy, and before he agreed to pardon today, Kinetic has been acting sketchy as hell.

[CoolBot]

If you wait until tomorrow and the mafia's NK on me is blocked, then I am obviously townie.

If you wait until tomorrow and the mafia's NK on me is not blocked, then I am obviously doc.

And when the NK is on someone else entirely? Even on the off chance you're not scum, they'd do so to waste our lynch. It's not like they don't have a good idea who's getting doc protection tonight.

Khel is just trying to delay his lynch for a day, when he wants the real doc to counter claim him. And he's trying to direct the doc to protect him. This, of course, wastes the protection and allows the scum to kill Flameaxe or Shanba.

[CoolBot]

Because he pointed out the lyncher isn't town? That seems a bit harsh for pointing out the obvious. No one has yet presented a convincing case against Yosarian.

Meanwhile, Khel is scummy as ever. It's amazing to me how some are bending over backward to accommodate him.

[CoolBot]

How can the town help the lyncher? By lynching a confirmed townie? I'm not comfortable with that. If we consider the lyncher is an ally -- which apparently we are -- that would put us down 2 people for the price of one bad lynch. It wouldn't help us. And if the lyncher becomes a survivor, we have to lynch him because he's as good as scum in the end game.

And why is thinking along these lines an indication of mafia? Why would scum go out of there way to protect the lyncher? And I'm not say Yosarian is likely town - just that this is not an argument that he's scum.

[CoolBot]

Yes, it'd be nice for us if the lyncher comes out. But I don't see it happening, and I don't see why Yos pointing that out deserved a bandwagon.

[CoolBot]

The doc should never counter claim Khel. He's either scum or town. And note he's again trying to survive the day and get the doc to claim tomorrow.

[CoolBot]

I sure hope the doc's not stupid enough to protect Khel. He's either a vanilla townie or scum. Neither deserve protection, especially when the cop & vig are alive and known. Khel screwed up, knows it, and is only trying to salvage the situation by drawing doc protection to allow his scum buddies to get Flameaxe.

[CoolBot]

I agree. But he's asking for doc protection when he can't be anything but a townie or scum. Ultimately, Khel is trying to draw protection away from the cop and the vig, and I don't like that.

[CoolBot]

Khel, you basically have no credibility now. All your grand plan accomplishes is the neutralize the doc, whoever he is, and outing him day 2. And at every point, you look like scum madly scrambling to get out of this mess you've created for yourself. You should make a plain claim we can evaluate. It won't change my mind, but it might change other's.

[CoolBot]

Guardian, not presenting cases is bad play. No one will be convinced to come to your side so long as you're just saying "Person A is scum and Person B is not!" Most of us require some sore of reason to switch votes.

I think chances Khel is doc are extremely low. If he is, he's playing very poorly. Someone suggested he was setting up a claim for an offed power role, but got beat to it by some other scum - thus the not a doc nonsense. I find this quite likely. And with his assertion the cop will clear him, I suspect he's the godfather.

[CoolBot]

Bandwagons won't appear solely on your say so. Really, it just looks like you don't want to be held accountable for mislynches.

[CoolBot]

It took us 25 freaking pages to do something painingly obvious, I'm not interested, and I want to be replaced....

If this is the way you usually react to things not going completely your way, I want you to be replaced too and will avoid games with you in the future. Quitters and whiners are no fun for anyone.

[CoolBot]

Asking others to follow you with no reasoning is lazy and harms the process too much. Why shouldn't I point it out?

[CoolBot]

Well, he may be counting on the fact replacements usually get the benefit of the doubt, but I find that pretty unlikely. It's a null tell for me as well. And as irritating as it is for someone to quit, at least Guardian is sticking around until a replacement is found. I think we should just drop this particular discussion.

Meanwhile, khel is

still

trying to draw doc protection. And his first post in the game was claiming a power role. And since he didn't post until after much discussion that amounted to the doc shouldn't claim, I find it hard to believe a doc would do that. He's scum. Lynch him.

[CoolBot]

It's simple: lynch Khel. His plan is nothing more than scum scrambling to save himself while encouraging the doc to out himself. He's also tried to deflect the wagon to Guardian with dubious logic.

[CoolBot]

No, MoS is right. No doc in his right mind would protect Khel over a claimed cop or vig. For Kehl to ask for it is foolhardy and suggests he's just trying to survive at the expense of our power roles. That is not remotely protown behavior and we should lynch him for it.

[CoolBot]

No, we should vig the person Kinetic pardons. Otherwise, we are throwing away this lynch for no good purpose. We need to see how people react under pressure to better guide us later.

[CoolBot]

So what is the case against Guardian anyway? The only compelling reason I've seen is the possible connection between him and Kinetic - which can be proved or denied by Kinetic pardoning who we lynch. Other arguments - like he pushed the mass claim and he wants to quit - don't indicate scum in any way.

[CoolBot]

Assume he is scum

Why? As I said in my previous post, the only scummy thing I see from Guardian is his linkage with Kinetic - and since Kinetic is probably the Governor, it doesn't indicate Guardian is scum. Assume he is scum. Linkages on their own do not indicate scum, especially when one of them have an easily proven role. You're are just trying to distract the wagon on you.

[CoolBot]

The reason we decided to prove Kinetic and then have the vig kill the target was as a compromise between those who didn't want to lose a lynch and those who wanted to prove Kinetic by any means necessary. Since we found probable scum in Khel, I'm fine with waiting to prove Kinetic, but then again, I always was.

And Khel is probably scum. I don't even understand why the priest would target Khel. The priest can't find scum - it'd be a waste of time. Ideally, IH would be searching the cop tonight anyway.

[CoolBot]

I still haven't see anyone post a compelling case against Guardian. The only point against him is his strong backing of Kinetic, but that's not a strong enough tell to ignore Khel trying everything he can to neutralize the doc and survive another day. And for that matter, I haven't seen a compelling case for Yosarian, either.

Really, we need the mod to take a stronger hand here and get people posting. Those of us who are active are pretty entrenched in our thinking - a new perspective could be helpful.

[CoolBot]

I agree. I self vote isn't a strong enough tell to ignore Khel. I think the bandwagon is more a symptom of the long day, and everyone just wants to get it over.

Khel is still trying to sell us that the scum are going to target him tonight. Since he hasn't claimed doc and the cop and vig are claimed, that's ridiculous and is simply another attempt to draw doc protection away from the power roles.

[CoolBot]

Voting for someone because it is something everyone can agree on is insane.

This is pretty stupid. We need to get a consensus, and that doesn't happen with everyone stubbornly staying off bandwagons.

Frankly, I don't want Khel lynched today: I'm not voting for a claimed doc d1.

Khel has denied being the doc. In fact, his 'WIFOMing the scum' strategy is just a convoluted attempt to

not

claim doc. I just don't see any doc doing this, especially when there's a bandwagon on him.

[CoolBot]

I like a Skruffs lynch far better than a Tar lynch. I don't understand why he's trying to convince us that scum won't go after the doc. Of course they will. Even without the cop, no doc means no wasted nights. And the random lynch is clearly a bad idea since it gives scum a very good chance of winning.

[CoolBot]

Oh, by the way, I expect the doc to protect me tonight, if I am not the doc. The mafia is 50/50 between me being doc and me not being doc, and if they think I am not doc, they will 50/50 between vig and cop. That makes 50/25/25, with me being 50%. Make the right choice. Protect me

Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum.

If I were the vig, khel would not survive the night. He's clearly trying to draw the doc protection away from the cop/vig just so he can survive.

And FWIW, I don't think Kinetic needs to pardon Tar. Losing a lynch is bad, even if we have a vig to back it up.

[CoolBot]

As such, I would assume a one-night-cop is better than a one-night vig.

How is that even relevant? You've been going on a bit about a pardon magically turns a vig kill into a cop investigation, but that's not true. Kinetic verifies himself with a pardon regardless of what the vig does, and we learn the vig's target's role regardless of what Kinetic does. Just one more piece of crap logic on your part.

And Yosarian, I agree with Guardian here. A lynch is more valuable than Kinetic proving himself.

[CoolBot]

How? Just who is the vig investigating? Kinetic? No, we'd know if when the pardon goes through or not. The target? No, he's dead and we'd learn his role , regardless of any pardon.

[CoolBot]

I'd still like to lynch Khel. Nothing that happened during the night really helped him.

vote: khelvaster

[CoolBot]

Kinetic, it appears you are saying we should only lynch if Shanba investigated that person. I find that hard to believe, so what am I missing? And if I'm misinterpreting, why shouldn't he participate in bandwagons?

Khel, can you even summarize the case against scot, or are you just hoping for a quick lynch here?

[CoolBot]

I don't think Shanba will be around tomorrow, especially now that the cop-immune scum is dead.

Do you have reason to believe that the doc is already dead? Because if he's not - as it appears - then Shanba has a pretty good chance of surviving.

[CoolBot]

I don't see how the vig would be bypassed to knock out a cop who's not going to reveal targets. I can't imagine that the doctor would not protect a cleared vig who's hit twice successfully.

The doc should be mixing it up between the Shanba and Flameaxe. Scum know this, so they will be reticent to target either one. Until the doc is dead, they'll probably be offing townies so they don't lose a night kill.

[CoolBot]

By "Townies" you mean "power roles", right?

No, I mean townies. Scum want to avoid targeting a protected player, thus they must find the doc before going after a player under its umbrella. I don't know why you're so focused on convincing the scum that our cop is not under doc protection.

I don't like you trying to suggest the doc should protect anyone other than the cleared, powerful, vig.

Let's not overstate the power of the vig. Flameaxe can take unilateral action against anyone in the game, but he doesn't have any more info than you or I to do so. Past success does not indicate future ones.

[CoolBot]

Skruffs is being unreasonable here. The only reason to declare the doc shouldn't protect the cop is to leave Shanba open to be night killed. He wants Shanba to give up who he investigated. If all he's found is townies, that's folly. If we end up bandwagoning someone Shanba knows is town, that's the time to tell us, not now. As far as I'm concerned, Skruffs is nearly as suspicious as Khel. So no one seems interested in pursuing Khel

unvote: Khelvaster
vote: Skruffs

[CoolBot]

The doc should choose one of Flameaxe and Shanba. 'nuff said. Whoever the doc is, they should listen to this and do it, even if it is Skruffs.

Agreed.

If shanba is scum, he could be avoiding claiming, to help out his buddies.

If shanba happens to be scum, faking his results is the easiest thing in the world. Forcing him to give up his innocent results gets us nowhere.

You just want to get that protection off the vig, right?

No, if you'd been reading my posts, you'd know I want to doc to split his protection between the cop and vig so that scum can't attack either one of them without risking being blocked. Stop misrepresenting me.

mod

, Sir Tornado and pie_is_good haven't posted yet. Can we get some prods already? A vote count would be nice, too.

[CoolBot]

Pretty sure that was Kinetic because he thought that was a way to confirm himself without burning the pardon.

[CoolBot]

Can someone outline the case against Yosarain? I don't recall him doing anything scummy enough we should ignore the two people trying to draw doc protection from our cop.

[CoolBot]

I could go along with that, but I would prefer to lynch one Skruffs or Khel for trying to direct the doc. They're actively trying to hurt the town.

[CoolBot]

It's not that you were lurking - it's your attitude that you can't bring anything to the game. Looks like scum trying to avoid making waves while still posting.

Pie wasn't posting; now he is. I don't think there's anything more to it.

[CoolBot]

So why is coolbot inferring that the mafia will not go after power roles?

Read what you quoted. I said protected players, not power roles. Thus, mafia will avoid cop and vig since they should be the most likely to be protected.

1) The claimed cop who has revealed NO RESULTS after two days must be protected.

No results? There's no role blocker, so he has two results already. He's simply (and quite reasonably) keeping them from the town. If he finds scum or if we're about to lynch someone, he should declare his result, but not otherwise.

2) The *cleared* vig is not really all that useful, dspite having two successes under his belt

A heavy dose of luck was needed for this. Don't deny it - Flameaxe had zero information to work on Night 1 when he hit the Devil. He has no more info then any of the town does. The only difference is he can act unilaterally.

3) The mafia thought that IH claimed Townie but was really the doc.

I never said anything remotely like this. Stop putting words in my mouth. The likely reason scum killed IH was so some of us would discount Shanba's results. Congratulations for proving the scum right, Skruffs.

All in all, Skruffs is grossly overestimating Flameaxe's power. We cannot count on him hitting scum every night, since he's not operating with an privileged info. But just to be clear, I'm not saying - and never have - that the doc should not protect the vig. The vig should get some protection, but so should the cop. Mixing it between the two will force the scum to kill elsewhere.

[CoolBot]

I still haven't seen any reasonable argument against Yosarian when Skruffs and Khel are much better targets for trying to stop even the potential of protecting the cop. And the bounty of posts only saying "vote my way" are killing discussion and the game.

[CoolBot]

Vig should have protection, but not all of it. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

[CoolBot]

For obvious reason, I'd prefer Skruffs or Khel to be offed by the vig.