Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[Kinetic]

Guardian, could you drop the PR for a bit. Wouldn't claiming just help the scum to kill power roles?

[Kinetic]

Guardian: What if the Mafia lynched the Doc just now? Wouldn't a mass claim be the absolute worst thing to do right now?

[Kinetic]

EBWOP: >> What if they killed the doc, not lynched

[Kinetic]

Ah, but only the mafia would know exactly the odds of that Guardian. That is what I think I'm getting at... If the mafia did hit the doc, only they would know that. Advocating a mass claim wouldn't hurt them at all. They could take out all of the power roles left in as little as four nights, leaving them with little to worry about in end game.

No, even if the doctor is around I think such a mass claim this early in the day is against the interests of the town. However the mafia hiding under power roles they kill is scary, annoying, I think if the mafia don't know who is investigated, if one of those people is killed later, and they try to impersonate them, we could catch them in that lie.

Vote: Agaisnt

mass claim at this time.

[Kinetic]

Hmm I see Guardian's point. Mafia have no choice but to claim town if we claim now... If they claim power and they are not dead soon then we know they are false claiming. Even their "safe claim" is useless.

That being said I still don't agree with a mass claim. I think we need to target claim at this point and maybe save mass claim for later. If someone claims power then we'll let them slide, but if they don't die we'll need to check them out. And if someone claims vanilla... that's pretty much a insta-hammer...

Guardian, if we did mass claim, who would you choose to claim first?

[Kinetic]

Vote:Urzassedatives

Bandwagoning because the mod said so.

[Kinetic]

As much as I want to say Guardian is wrong.......

Damn it he's right.

>>

Begin the mass claim proceedings...

However if the mafia HAVE killed the doctor, we're screwed.

[Kinetic]

I'm not convinced yet. If the scum don't play ball and end up counter claiming a power role, we'd have to lynch both of them to be sure we get the scum. So if all three goons do this, we lose our vig, inspector, & priest and leave the GF hiding among the townies.

Umm, no I actually

HOPE

the mafia would counter claim. In that case, that role is safe from NKs because if one of them is NKed by anyone but the Vig we can assume that the Mafia killed the real power role and we insta-lynch the counter claimer. Heck, even if the Mafia WIFOM it and kill their own goon to get us to lynch the power role, we STILL win since they had to kill their own goon.

Plus, if the counter claim we don't have to lynch right away. The Governor can basically prove his role, so there isn't any trouble if someone counter claims him. Mason can claim townie, he just needs to find a town power role that he thinks is not going to die and befriend him, then claim the next day and the person he befriended can confirm him. Vig can claim and then prove it the next night with a town targeted kill. If multiple people claim we just tell them to target different people and whoever is alive, that vig is faking it. Russian Roulette VIG STYLE.

Angel should claim townie and protect the Inspector if possible. Lyncher should claim Lyncher and their target. That way we have a confirmed Lyncher and a confirmed townie. Again, if a mafia counter claims, than this plays into our hands since we know that one of them must be mafia. Since Lyncher can win with the town, he won't lose the game by doing this.

Priest, unfortunately, will most likely be NKed. So if someone counter-claims him and he doesn't die, well then lucky him.

So the best case scenario we have is:
10 claimed townies, 3 are goons, one is angel, one is mason.
Confirmed Lyncher Target
Confirmed Governor
Confirmed Inspector
Confirmed Priest
Confirmed Lyncher

The Inspector and Priest

must

claim first and claim their first night targets. That way they can be confirmed. If mafia try to hide in a power role, then in 2-3 nights we'll pretty much have them dead to rights if they're not dead.

[Kinetic]

EBWOP:

My math sux0rs:
11 claimed townies: 4 townies, 1 miller, 3 goons, 1 angel, 1 mason, 1 godfather
Confirmed Lyncher Target
Confirmed Governor
Confirmed Inspector
Confirmed Priest
Confirmed Lyncher

[Kinetic]

Alright: Order based on MOS's rolls:

14. spectrumvoid
13. Guardian
05. scotmany12
02. Urzassedatives
08. Gorrad
01. Sefer
07. Khelvaster
06. CoolBot
11. IH
04. Mastermind of Sin
15. Kinetic
03. Pie_is_good
09. Mert
12. Yosarian2
10. Haut Boy
16. curiouskarmadog

[Kinetic]

Well, now that I think about it, mass claim will help the town out. I have no problem with the order either.

Scumscumscumdiescumdie. If he claims vanilla I suggest we proceed with the lynch.

[Kinetic]

But for the love of all that is holy stop speculating on what the mafia should claim, or what they might claim, or how they could claim this and that! All who have already done so are greatly suspect, telling the mafia how to work around the mass claim is idiocy!

Let me get this straight: you plan may have a hole in it. But we can't bring up because scum might see it? That's ridiculous. If there's a way to screw with any plan, we have to close it up - and we can't do that without discussing it. We can't just assume scum are idiots.

I understand what he's saying Coolbot. There isn't a hole in the plan, but that being said there IS a dominant scum strategy. Since they can't communicate with each other, if one of them messes up and makes a mistake we can jump on it. There is no reason we should tell them the dominant strategy.

[Kinetic]

Unvote,Vote:Coolbot

Stop being stubburn. If you are town you are being poor about it, but if you are scum you are playing exactly as you should.

I'd like to hear others opinions besides Coolbots.

[Kinetic]

<--- Ready to put my cards on the table.

[Kinetic]

At this point I really don't want to talk about the mass claim, well, at all. I've reached my decision, and much more talk than what has already been said can only help the mafia at this point. I would like everyone to either say they

Support

or

Oppose

Mass claim before we have much more discussion.

I suggest everyone who is pro-town read the discussion before this because all the reasons why this is good for us are in there.

If after everyone, or at least most of us have voted, and there is a large group against, then we'll have no choice but to explain further (which will help scum).

If it will make everyone feel better about me, I can claim right now and show this is a very powerful town strategy.

[Kinetic]

I'm an idiot.

I figured it out. There are two ways that people may not go with mass claim:

One, they are scum.

Two, they are a power role and they don't want to be outed.

I understand the second reason, because that is how I felt. However I realized that you cannot be afraid to have the mafia NK you. If it helps the town in the long run, then it helps everyone on your team. You can win even if you are dead...

As such, I'm going to claim in about 30 minutes. I think we need someone to lead the way to show the town this is NOT a bad thing. In addition I can even prove that I am not scum claiming the role they killed.

[Kinetic]

Also, remember both Priest and Inspector results are not binary. Certain roles come up differently from both and mafia don't know exactly what everyone is.

[Kinetic]

If his investigation results are ever proven wrong, we know he is scum.

And scum will obligingly give us wrong results? How can we assume this will happen when the Miller is the only result they don't know ahead of time?[/quote]

Also, remember both Priest and Inspector results are not binary. Certain roles come up differently from both and mafia don't know exactly what everyone is.

[Kinetic]

...

Coolbot, all this sounds like to me is an attempt to find ANY reason to derail a mass claim. Even though in the worst case scenario it is still a good town move, you're pushing that the worst case scenario is absolutely going to happen and thus we shouldn't mass claim because of it.

All you are doing right now Coolbot is trying to inform the mafia on exactly what to do. Stop it, you are hurting the town.

[Kinetic]

>> I totally didn't realize Coolbot didn't know that.........................


....

READ THE WHOLE GAME SETUP

>><<>>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>

And please don't blame others for your own ignorance. You made a mistake, we can forgive, but don't try and pass the blame because you didn't read everything you were supposed to.

[Kinetic]

Yea, I know.

[Kinetic]

Now this is when Guardian realizes that it is all an act to get him on my side.... just like I did in the last game. Then I will hide behind him calling me town all game while I try my damn hardest to get him lynched.

[Kinetic]

I agree, that's why I haven't claimed yet, but I just felt if someone needed convincing I could have started it off.

[Kinetic]

*cough*Pie is going to feel dumb*cough*

[Kinetic]

Unvote

Mainly because my reasoning for voting before has become moot.

[Kinetic]

Damn it he is back to haiku. >>

[Kinetic]

Do not follow him
I will /wrists if this becomes
a haiku post game

[Kinetic]

If 2 or 3 people don't claim we can pretty much guess their possible roles by what isn't claimed. Also if 13 people claim and 3 dont, well... those people look scummy.

[Kinetic]

The Wtf the Vote Count is the Same Even After Two Pages Vote Count

Guardian

(4) - Urzassedatives, Sefer, CoolBot, Gorrad

CoolBot

(3) - Guardian, Kinetic, IH

Kinetic

(1) - Mastermind of Sin

Mert

(1) - scotmany12

Not Voting

(7) - Pie_is_good, Khelvaster, Mert, Haut Boy, Yosarian2, spectrumvoid, curiouskarmadog

With 16 alive, it is 9 to lynch!

ok then,

vote Urzassedatives

for lurking

One would think you'd ask for a prod before placing a vote. Interesting that I would be the one you chose to vote.

Secondly, pressuring lurkers on day 1? Is there really nothing better to go on? I've noted this post.

Confirm vote: guardian.

That vote was terrible on a miriad of levels. First, you attacked someone for something that was patently false. There were no other votes on me, so how the heck could it be called bandwagoning for someone to vote me?

Second, you said that your reason was false, and that you agreed with pressuring me, at the same time LEAVING your vote on curious. That makes no sense, if your vote WAS a joke vote, (which makes no sense at this stage of the game or in context anyway.) then I would expect you to unvote it as soon as possible.

unvote

Something REALLY bothers me about this exchange. Just noting it now for reference later in the game.

[Kinetic]

already said I will claim if the majority thinks it is a good idea.

Translation: I don't want to claim, but I want to look like town so if they force me I'll do it too.

[Kinetic]

already said I will claim if the majority thinks it is a good idea.

Translation: I don't want to claim, but I want to look like town so if they force me I'll do it too.

close...I do not really want to claim, dont know if it is a good idea. But if the town does it, then I will too.

You can keep pressuring me to go one way or the other, but that will not work. When I say I do not know if it is a good idea..I MEAN I do not know if it is a good idea. I do not care what the town thinks of me. I do care what the as a whole thinks of a game tactic of this importance…there is a difference.

I do not like your assumption of my words.

Vote: kinetic

Why do you find it necessary to put words in my mouth? How will that benefit you?

Yes -- the "bandwagon"
was only what put CK
D over the top.

I thought you agreed I didn’t bandwagon. Please tell me again (non haiku) why your vote is on me…because again, I didn’t join a bandwagon.

I do not remember saying that you were scummy by wanting to look town. Even town need to look town. I was explaining exactly what you said in the plainest way possible so there was no mistakes.

I have noted both your reluctance to assist the town and your blatant OMGUS.

[Kinetic]

I have noted both your reluctance to assist the town and your blatant OMGUS.

where exactly have I been reluctant to help the town?

... I refuse to answer a question that has already been answered multiple times.

[Kinetic]

Mass Claim = Pro-Town Strategy
CKD = Reluctant to Mass Claim
Thus...
CKD = Reluctant to help Town by supporting a Pro-Town Strategy.

[Kinetic]

Mass Claim = Pro-Town Strategy
CKD = Reluctant to Mass Claim
Thus...
CKD = Reluctant to help Town by supporting a Pro-Town Strategy.

I have stated that I am not certian that mass claiming is a pro-town strategy (mostly due to inexperience in mass claiming)..I have also stated that if the majority of the town does it, I will to..not because I want to fit in (obviously if I wanted to fit in I would just agree with Guardian) but because the town thinks it is a good idea.

now where does that fall into your math?

Just because you say you don't think its a good idea does not mean it isn't a good idea. Math = Logic. You cannot combat Logic with opinion and then ask for me to make your argument logical.

What you are doing is trying to find out how your scum buddies will do, and then after they tell you what to do or you find you can't avoid a claim, you'll do it. And don't throw your WIFOM at me.

Y'know, given that this is an open setup, the claim order pretty much doesn't matter at all. A scum claiming at the beginning of the massclaim already knows what roles

will be claimed

, and the same goes for a scum at the end of the massclaim. The only real advantage I can think of is that a scum who claims at the end will be able to counterclaim the person they have the best chance against - but the odds are very good that

at least one

scum will claim after the scummiest townie anyways.

Let's get on with it. We're wasting our time on the order.

We're not really waiting on IF we mass claim now, we're waiting for everyone to check in so we CAN mass claim. The first person on the so far agreed upon list is spectrumvoid and he hasn't even posted yet... Here is the list in order again in case anyone forgot.

spectrumvoid
Guardian
scotmany12
Urzassedatives
Gorrad
Sefer
Khelvaster
CoolBot
IH
Mastermind of Sin
Kinetic
Pie_is_good
Mert
Yosarian2
Haut Boy
curiouskarmadog

[Kinetic]

Request Mod Prod on spectrumvoid

[Kinetic]

in replacement thread.

Note: As per the Wiki and the V/LA thread, anyone with spectrumvoid in their game is going to need a replacement, as her access has been terminated for probably 8 months. She's very sorry for the inconvenience.

I never said I thought it was a bad idea, I said (again) I wasnt sure either way, why are you putting words in my mouth?

Ah, thanks for the replacement information. Also:

Post #67

My intial reaction is that is a horrible idea...

Try Again, thanks.

[Kinetic]

spectrumvoid

Shanba

Support

Guardian

Support

scotmany12

Support

Urzassedatives

Avoiding the topic

Gorrad

Support

Sefer

Support

Khelvaster

Never Posted

CoolBot

Support

IH

Against

as of Aug 15
Mastermind of Sin

Support

Kinetic

Support

Pie_is_good

Support

Mert

Avoiding the topic

Yosarian2

Support

Haut Boy

Never Posted

curiouskarmadog

Fence Sitting

So we have 10 Supports
1 Against
2 Avoiding the Topic
2 Never Posted
And CKD

[Kinetic]

I was just pointing out you were wrong, I don't remember saying I cared about the context.

[Kinetic]

Prod/Replace on Haut Boy Never Posted

Prod/Replace on Khelvaster Never Posted

Prof on Urzassedatives, Mert

If you guys are reading this please voice your stance onmass claim.

Prod on IH

If you are reading this please respond if you still think mass claiming is a bad idea despite the overwhelming majority opinion.

[Kinetic]

I do not support a mass claim. With two dead that the scum know and we do not, it means the scum have two uncontested fake claims. This means that the "mass claim" will basically confirm two scum, and leave us pretty much high and dry, as the rest, in my opinion, will claim vanilla.

Yea... we REALLY have to worry about the scum claiming devil... There is 1 dead, not two.

You guys are right, a mass claim would have broken this setup if you had done it with none dead, but the half-reveal is put into this setup pretty much specifically to make that strategy not as effective, and IT IS NOT EFFECTIVE right now. We wouldn't have enough lynches to get rid of all the claimed vanilla, and the two scum confirmed as townies would still win anyway.

Those are my thoughts. That is stone cold logic. Don't attack me for disagreeing with the mass claim, attack the logic.

If anyone attacks me for that, as I have see CKD attacked, I will assume its because you can't beat my logic, and therefore ultimately agree with me.

At best, one scum, and even then we have significantly narrowed our search parameters. We're not advocating completely playing just based on the claims, but a mass claim will be ultimately extremely helpful. If you think standing around and letting mafia get even MORE safe claims as they kill more throughout the game, then you are not understanding your own logic.

I am not attacking you, only your own misunderstandings. You're being illogical with your own "stone cold logic".

[Kinetic]

So, I was lurking intentionally. The reason for that was that I am a pro-town powerrole and didn't want to draw too much attention to myself. On that topic, it would be a really idea to fully massclaim. Revealing all the identities of our powerroles would be a terrible idea. Knowing who is cop, doc, and so on is too advantageous to scum.

Instead, we should have a townie/not-townie claim. We will then do things based off of how many townie/non-townie claims.

We have advocated the Doc claim with the town.

If we do what you say, no matter what the mafia will know exactly who are the power roles anyway and the doc will not know who to protect. With the mass claim we confirm several power roles that pretty much are useless to the town. The only power roles that really

matter

at this point are Inspector and Doctor. The doctor won't claim and the Inspector will be protected by the doctor.

[Kinetic]

IH: I have thought about not mass claiming. Originally I was completely against the idea. Then I realized I was wrong and adjusted my opinion. I haven't added anything since then because I'm trying to be careful what I reveal.

After the mass claim there will be plenty of time to discuss the possibilities that the mafia could have taken. We'll have PLENTY of time then.

IH if you actually just re read you would have noticed that there were ALOT more people against this idea as their first instinct. But you'll also notice a lot of people changing their minds. You even said you would claim in your post...

And as for Khel's plan, that is absolutely the WORST IDEA EVER. His plan intended the doc to claim with the power-roles.......

I would go over why Khel's plan is even worse than the current mass claim, however some of the possibilities between the two are similar enough that it would give scum information.

The most IMPORTANT thing in my opinion is that we must NOT let the scum communicate! If we go with your idea and explain in detail every plan that MIGHT happen the scum can subtlety hint to each other what one they should use. That is why I have been so annoyed at people who aren't listening. At THIS point information is the town's ENEMY. We will have plenty of time AFTER the mass claim.

[Kinetic]

Idiot, you completely ignored about how the only way claiming becomes strong for scum is if we put a gigantic amount of faith in claims, and ignore logic completely.

At best, one scum, and even then we have significantly narrowed our search parameters. We're not advocating completely playing just based on the claims, but a mass claim will be ultimately extremely helpful. If you think standing around and letting mafia get even MORE safe claims as they kill more throughout the game, then you are not understanding your own logic.

I am not attacking you, only your own misunderstandings. You're being illogical with your own "stone cold logic".

*cough*

And please don't make it personal. I can call you all the names in the book but that wouldn't change anything.

I'm sorry if I failed to reassert a point I already addressed.

[Kinetic]

...

Modkill IH please.

[Kinetic]

IH is useless. I've written him out of this game as far as I'm concerned. I agree with your notice on Urza Guardian, but there is no helping IH. I've addressed his points and since he was wrong he proceeds to call me names -.-.

FOS: IH, FOS:Urza

I'm pretty sure we've come to the point where the town is mass claiming and the scum are being scum. Shanba I'm not going to vote for you but I believe at this point its better to start the mass claim.

[Kinetic]

IH. Once more:

YOU'RE WRONG! FACE IT! I ADDRESSED YOUR POINTS AND YOU'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THEM!

SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM DIE SCUM DIE

Vote: IH

[Kinetic]

IH is useless. I've written him out of this game as far as I'm concerned. I agree with your notice on Urza Guardian, but there is no helping IH. I've addressed his points and since he was wrong he proceeds to call me names -.-.

FOS: IH, FOS:Urza

I'm pretty sure we've come to the point where the town is mass claiming and the scum are being scum. Shanba I'm not going to vote for you but I believe at this point its better to start the mass claim.

I called you A name. Quit being stupid. If you proceed to continue to not understand me I will proceed to calling you worse names.

I don't think I can top "you're what happens when two cousins breed" but I might try.

I don't understand why you think only scum would oppose a mass claim. Or do you think I'm a naive newbie? Do you not recognize the falsity of this statement? Especially with everyone pretty much supporting a mass claim? Clearly the scum are hiding in the supporters.

I think you're a jackass, illiterate, illogical, and overall just an ugly person. I addressed your point. I have

NEVER

said I will completely trust a mass claim. I said it twenty times that we still need to PLAY THE GAME. Mass claim is not a CATCH ALL END ALL. You are the idiot for not realizing that this is a VERY powerful play for town.

THIS IS A CORPSE RIPPING GAME. The longer we wait to claim the MORE time the mafia has to gain additional information that the town does not have.

I understand you perfectly, and you continue to call me names instead of realizing you are in the wrong, not me!

I don't think only scum would oppose a mass claim, I think only idiots would not support one, especially after all the positive points! The reason we are avoiding some of the negatives is NOT because they will turn the game in the favor of mafia but because IF WE TOLD THE MAFIA THE BEST WAY TO CLAIM THEN THEY WOULD DO THAT YOU CONDESCENDING JERK!

But HOW the mafia approach the mass claim is JUST as important as WHO claims WHAT! Now shut the FUCK up and get BACK in the dunce chair where you belong you freaking retard!

You want to get DOWN AND DIRTY, well guess what I'm not afraid of that game! I just figured I would prefer things a little more civil.

[Kinetic]

Wait.... So the way YOU address HIS argument is to refute it by calling him an idiot... and threatening to do so again???

No, he will not understand me and seems to refuse to read. If he continues to do so I will do so harsher.

Scum would try and oppose a mass claim... because it hurts the scum...

Coolbot I can see. Urza, you, less so.


Being mean = anti-town, btw. So cut it out and play nice

1.Where is your proof? You cannot prove that a massclaim will hurt the scum. You can prove it MAY hurt the scum but not WILL

2.Coolbot you can see because he agreed with you. Can't you see you're letting him off because he agreed with you?

3.No it's not. Being mean brings reactions, and possibly understanding.

I think you're a jackass, illiterate, illogical, and overall just an ugly person. I addressed your point. I have NEVER said I will completely trust a mass claim. I said it twenty times that we still need to PLAY THE GAME. Mass claim is not a CATCH ALL END ALL. You are the idiot for not realizing that this is a VERY powerful play for town.

THIS IS A CORPSE RIPPING GAME. The longer we wait to claim the MORE time the mafia has to gain additional information that the town does not have.

I understand you perfectly, and you continue to call me names instead of realizing you are in the wrong, not me!

Calm the fuck down. I called you

a

name. You have NOT totally addressed my concerns. Not that I can see.

I don't think only scum would oppose a mass claim, I think only idiots would not support one, especially after all the positive points! The reason we are avoiding some of the negatives is NOT because they will turn the game in the favor of mafia but because IF WE TOLD THE MAFIA THE BEST WAY TO CLAIM THEN THEY WOULD DO THAT YOU CONDESCENDING JERK!

But HOW the mafia approach the mass claim is JUST as important as WHO claims WHAT! Now shut the FUCK up and get BACK in the dunce chair where you belong you freaking retard!

You want to get DOWN AND DIRTY, well guess what I'm not afraid of that game! I just figured I would prefer things a little more civil.

Alright, don't start this shit. Avoiding negatives is not the way to do this. You attack the negatives. Not let them sit back and fester.

I understand why you are wary to not discuss them

but I have said nothing specific enough. I could write out an extremely detailed strategy.

We don't have

any evidence

at the moment to decide what's important of who claims what. Now you shut the fuck up and listen. If we massclaim, then that will dictate our movements throughout the game. You may CLAIM that it won't, but we will always be basing whether there was a counter claim. Whether that is the correct number of townies.

Now if you want to continue disillusioning yourself I'm just an incompetent asshole, then go ahead.

If you want to look and see what I'm saying, you're free to do that too.

I look, I still see someone with an IQ under room temperature, I feel fine continuing to believe I'm superior to you in every way.

So yea, go along your merry way you half wit. I said don't let this get personal, your response was to continue the personal attacks. As far as I am concerned you dug this mud hole dickweed. You want me to see your arguments have merit and you think insulting me is the correct course of action?

Fuck you and go get bent.

[Kinetic]

I look, I still see someone with an IQ under room temperature, I feel fine continuing to believe I'm superior to you in every way.

So yea, go along your merry way you half wit. I said don't let this get personal, your response was to continue the personal attacks. As far as I am concerned you dug this mud hole dickweed. You want me to see your arguments have merit and you think insulting me is the correct course of action?

Fuck you and go get bent.

This is what you do when you don't want it to get personal?

XD

I gave you every chance to stop this before it started. You decided to continue, not me. Don't place the blame on me.

[Kinetic]

Haha, no. You do it. I've addressed your points civilly before and would have no problems doing so if you acted civilly, but guess what, my sentiments stand.

Fuck you and go get bent.

[Kinetic]

Dear IH,

I don't care.

Fuck you and go get bent.

Love,
Kinetic

[Kinetic]

Dear Urza,

I listened to his requests and answered them to the best of my ability while he was being civil. When he began to become uncivilized I asked him to stop that and return to the merits of his conversations. What did he do? He then proceeded to continue to insult me. So yes, I don't care what at all he says because he decided to be uncivil about it. If he wants something, he can do it himself as he will not gain any more assistance of any kind from me.

The fact that you back him up and completely down play the way he attacked me personally is unfortunate; however, I do not care. Vote for me, go ahead, but once I claim you will have absolutely no reason to believe me as scum. I suggest you look back on what has transpired here and realize that IH is in the wrong.

-Kinetic

[Kinetic]

P.S. I think he is anti-town not because he disagrees with me, but with the matter he decided to attack me.

[Kinetic]

Dear Urza,

Fuck you and get bent.

[Kinetic]

At this point I don't care at all what IH wants. I tried to be civil with him, he failed, so I don't care if he wants a glass of water dying from thirst in the desert. He'll have an easier time teaching France how to win a war.

And I only responded to your post as such because you dropped all courtesy toward me. I haven't completely written you off yet, but I'm close.

If your response to my original post was more along the lines of "I understand IH was a dick, but I would still ask you to point this out to me", I would have responded in a more courteous way myself. You did not, so I don't feel like doing anything for you at this time.

[Kinetic]

Post 212: IH posts his long post detailing his concerns... all of which have been pretty much addressed if he would have read.

Post 216: I try to alleviate his concerns andway.

Post 217: IH insults me than claims I never addressed his main point.

Post 218: I show IH I actually responded to that specific concern not a couple posts back, namely post 208. I also kindly ask him to drop the insults.

Post 219: IH ignores my previous post, claims the exact same concern (which I just addressed...) and insults me again for good measure...

Post 226-234: Guardian tries to alleviate IH's concerns, IH wants Guardian to repeat his points verbatim that he already explained at least 3 times already in the thread. However IH is god and demands he do it again instead of forcing him to *gasp* read the exact same thing a couple pages back...

Post 236: I try to completely ignore IH and make it obvious to him I'd rather not start anything at this point.

Post 238: IH again brings up the same things that have been asked multiple times...

Post 239: I begin to lose my cool and am tired of what IH is trying to sell. I start to think he is trying to force us to explain to his scum buddies how to claim so he doesn't look suspicious doing so. This is why I vote him.

Post 240: IH goes too far. He insults me multiple times in the same post and tries to write them off at the same time.

Post 243: I finally have enough of IH and tell him exactly how I feel about his shit.

================

There, thats all the Post Numbers you're getting from me for now. Address IH's despicable behavior and maybe I'll consider fulfilling other requests. Until then I'm not going to respond very favorably.

[Kinetic]

Well since this looks like I might ACTUALLY get lynched by the scum, let me claim and laugh at all of you.

I'm the Governor! I can prove my role before the day even ends. Go ahead, continue toward the lynch. In addition this makes it so that the only roles the scum can claim with ANY likeliness of hiding are Priest and Inspector, and the other one can check the first one! If we have a conflict then we can take care of it! Wow, you're telling me if they claim against each other we might actually have to play a game! They can't have both, so guess what, mass claiming is the right choice.

What this looks like to me is one of the scum (IH) finally decided to try and oppose mass claim with a case and his scum buddies are backing him up.

I would be willing to bet the scum have nothing, a townie at best.

[Kinetic]

Meh, I already realized the scum are going to kill me early in this game once I figured out the Guardian was right. Might as well force them to do the legwork instead of giving the town an easy lynch. All I need to a stupid town putting me at -1, so opportunistic scum outing himself, lynching me, I can't stop the damn lynch on myself, then giving the scum two claims to possibly hide behind and completely derailing mass-claim.

[Kinetic]

I wasn't taking any chances at this point. You're the one holding us up Shanba, start the claiming.

[Kinetic]

The doctor should claim townie, period. It doesn't matter if the scum kill the doctor. We will know, because power roles will start dropping dead. Also, some scum will probably do something stupid like make a last minute change in their claim to say they are the doctor, and we will lynch them. If someone claims doctor, we don't lynch them that day, but if they don't die that night we lynch them the next day. It's good for the doctor to claim to save us a lynch, but the scum should kill them, or they're just wasting a night kill. If the scum don't kill them, it's likely that it was scum faking the claim, and I'd rather lynch a real doctor on the second day after the scum do something stupid like letting them live through the night than let a scum doctor get away with an open claim for multiple days in a row. The doctor is important, but not so important that we just *have* to keep them alive. They'll die eventually, and we'll probably know when it happens.

Untrue. Doctor should outright claim with the rest of the town if we massclaim. It messes up the claims and eventual math that would work out, as we have a predetermined amount of townies, so if the count is messed up by the scum, the lyncher, AND the doc, we're screwed.

Also, the Inspector and the Priest would be extremely easy roles to fake claim for scum, it's not as simple as Sefer makes it out to be.

IH is an idiot for goading Kinetic into responding with insults, but that's IH for you.

Well my goal was to goad him into producing results, and hopefully get angry enough to actually answer what I had asked of him. Seems he would rather get all whiny instead of actually do something about it.

I'm unsure what that says about his alignment, but I would be willing to bet that it points towards scum, now that I think about it. While his role is confirmable, it's only confirmable against someone that is not him. I'm not sure what that means either.

MoS I believe I have raised other concerns besides that, but that is one of the first things I brought up.

Also, you need to look at this from our side, as well. You say that we could be scum who know that we killed a power role, right? Look at it from our point of view. You could be scum who knows you killed a townie (a much more likely thing to happen), and you are fighting against it, because you know you don't have any holes to hide it. No scum will get away with claiming a lone power role, because a) we will lynch them eventually, and b) the scum would normally have killed a lone power role, since there aren't any counterclaims where scum would be hiding. The scum don't have to worry about outing themselves by killing someone who no one has counterclaimed.

This is bad logic if you are town.

For one, I don't like how you say "Look at it from our side" how do you know Guardian is town? How do you know Kinetic is town? How do you know the people supporting it are town? That is the main flaw in this.


Secondly, I don't believe I even said I was worried about the main supporters knowing it (though it is a large concern), I said generically.

Pretty much you didn't satisfy my concerns at all, but did present another point of view where people who opposed it looked scummier.

FoS:MoS

Scum scum scumscumscumscumscumscumscumscum

[Kinetic]

"We don't want to mistakenly lynch the doc, so we should force him to claim so the scum can kill him."

Fail

[Kinetic]

We

really

have to worry about scum claiming doc. Has IH ever played mafia before?

[Kinetic]

I've done the math. Begin the mass claiming gogo.

[Kinetic]

Absolutely not. After Mass claim I have already said I would do all that and more, but before that the mafia will be able to read too much into this. IH, you KNOW this. Scumscumscumscumscum.

[Kinetic]

If he Gov pardons a lynch does the day end?

[Kinetic]

Yea, I feared Shadow would say that... that means the mafia are going to pounce on me and say I'm not confirmed. >><<

[Kinetic]

And since we're fucking with the mafia, if the mafia is killing off claimed townies trying to dig up the doc and not going after power roles they're helping us by limiting our lynching options. If they go after the power roles they need to worry about the doc saving the one they try and kill unless they go after the fringe roles. And if the go after the fringe roles, do we

really

need to worry? I think a few players would be happy when I die.

[Kinetic]

Wait, did Urza just say what I think he said.

Wow, sucks being insulted, doesn't it?

I would even feel sorry for you if when IH was doing the exact same thing to me, you were saying I was wrong.

[Kinetic]

Wait, did Urza just say what I think he said.

Wow, sucks being insulted, doesn't it?

I would even feel sorry for you if when IH was doing the exact same thing to me, you were saying I was wrong.

Man...It sucks to not comprehend basic logic, doesn't it? It must really suck to be you, then, douche bag.

I attacked you for refusing a request for information, not for not liking being insulted. You can dislike being insulted all you want, in fact, I don't give a rats fuck how you feel about being insulted. If someone asks you for information, you give it. I was not refusing a request for information, and I was not avoiding questions. So like...We're not even close, homie.

Next time, if you want to call someone out for something, you should make some sort of effort to understand the basic conventions of the english language, read the fucking words that are on the screen, and then comprehend what was actually going on.

Maybe if you did that, you would not come accross as a miserable scum sucking shitty piece of garbage who is just seizing on anything to attempt to make me look bad because I didn't agree with you in your attempt to withhold information when MEAN little IH Pished you into the mud.

Fuck you, you ignorant, moronic douche bag. Go lick a cock, and fuck a goat while you're at it.

You dont understand logic, you don't understand mafia, hell, you don't even understand english.

Go fuck yourself, tard.

Wow Urza, don't get angry. I guess it really hurts when someone hits the nail right on the head. I think I know exactly what you're going through so I'm going to dismiss all those nice things you called me, and just point out you're acting

exactly

as I was.

Ah, the irony is amazing.

[Kinetic]

This is priceless. Even better since I know who your main account is, lol.

[Kinetic]

spectrumvoid

Shanba

Support

Guardian

Support

scotmany12

Against?

Urzassedatives

Being Replaced

Gorrad

Support

Sefer

Support

Khelvaster

Against

CoolBot

Support

IH

Against

but will claim
Mastermind of Sin

Support

Kinetic

Support

Pie_is_good

Support

Mert

Being Replaced

Yosarian2

Support

Haut Boy

Never Posted still...

curiouskarmadog

Against

but will claim

So we have 9 Supports
4 Against
2 Being Replaced
1 Never Posted

Some things might be, just bold Support or Against in your post and I'll update if I'm wrong.

[Kinetic]

There is no unsure option. As far as I'm concerned you're against it until you support it. There isn't a gray line here. I usually hate generalizations like this, but in this case it is that simple. You can't have it both ways. Pick one. I didn't put you in support because you have not shown support for it yet.

[Kinetic]

Last I heard you were against it Khel. Are you for it now or?

[Kinetic]

Ok, for those of you still avoiding mass claim I've written out a full game synopsis of why Mass Claim wins the game(or at worst gives the town an advantage). However in this are the exact scum "tactics" that could make the game difficult for us by basically telling them the best way to play. This doesn't give them a full proof way of winning, but effectively increases their odds to about 30% given the BEST circumstances. However those odds go lower if they don't play to the best of their ability.

That being said: I will not post this unless I have a consensus that we will not mass claim unless I release it. That means at least 8 people must be against mass claim. As far as I'm concerned as soon as we get 12-13 FOR mass claim we should begin claiming because that is beyond the majority and anyone not claiming even if they are against it are scum.

Just a reminder to Flame, THE DOC WILL CLAIM TOWNIE. Last thing we need is the doc claiming and really making the game funny.

[Kinetic]

Unvote Vote IH

I'm sorry, his resistance is beyond scummy.

[Kinetic]

Plus despite what you're saying CKD, if IH

does

derail the Mass Claim, no matter how scummy it makes him personally look, the entire scum group wins. Lynching one scum but letting the other three hide is a huge advantage when you can't trust the cop on Day 2 to still be the cop, even more so in this game than in others.

[Kinetic]

/agree with Option 2/MOS

[Kinetic]

Updated

spectrumvoid

Shanba

Support

Guardian

Support

scotmany12

Against?

Urzassedatives

Fireaxe

Support

Gorrad

Support

Sefer

Support

Khelvaster

Against

CoolBot

Support

IH

Against

but will claim
Mastermind of Sin

Support

Kinetic

Support

Pie_is_good

Support

Mert

Tarhalindur

Support

Yosarian2

Support

Haut Boy

Never Posted still...

curiouskarmadog

Against

but will claim

So we have 11 Supports
2 Against, but will claim (CKD, IH)
2 Against, but haven't said if they would claim with consensus (Scotmany, Khel)
1 Never Posted (Haut Boy)

Some things might be, just bold Support or Against in your post and I'll update if I'm wrong.

[Kinetic]

Scot do you mean if everyone else agrees to claim or you want everyone to claim before you? Because on the official list you're 2nd since Guardian already claimed

[Kinetic]

I just noticed on about page 14 or 15 Khel said he would claim if the consensus was such. I'll get that quote and post the updated (and possibly final) list in a couple moments. At this point only Haut Boy is absent, and he/his replacement will have virtually no choice. I would really like to hear from him before we claim but I think we're just holding up the game for nothing...

[Kinetic]

I would feel better without a massclaim, but if that is what the majority thinks, I don't think I have enough experience when compared to someone like coolbot.

Do I have a choice in the matter?

I'm pretty sure that means if the majority believes in mass claim he will to.

Updated

spectrumvoid

Shanba

Support

Guardian

Support

scotmany12

Against

but will claim

Urzassedatives

Fireaxe

Support

Gorrad

Support

Sefer

Support

Khelvaster

Against

but will claim
CoolBot

Support

IH

Against

but will claim
Mastermind of Sin

Support

Kinetic

Support

Pie_is_good

Support

Mert

Tarhalindur

Support

Yosarian2

Support

Haut Boy

Never Posted still...

curiouskarmadog

Against

but will claim

So we have 11 Supports
4 Against, but will claim (CKD, IH, Khel, scot)
1 Never Posted (Haut Boy)

Some things might be, just bold Support or Against in your post and I'll update if I'm wrong.

[Kinetic]

And just a reminder, I believe the consensus here is that the Doctor and Priest will claim TOWNIE. Priest will claim day 2 with a report on the Inspector.

[Kinetic]

Shanba that is dumb. Vig killing confirms the Vig Claim and also narrows down our unconfirmed town suspects. I can see a town pointed out Vig kill, but having the Vig not kill is completely wasting a role that could possibly be NKed very soon.

We need to get as much out of the Vig as possible. If you are worried about a Priest or Doc miskill well that sucks indeed, but honestly it is a chance we need to take.

If you don't agree with a completely town directed Vig kill, then perhaps a list of three suspects for Vig kill and let the Vig decide who to kill. This will also allow the Inspector to choose his suspect from the remaining townies so we don't have the possibility of the Inspector checking someone the Vig is targeting to kill.

[Kinetic]

I'm still unsure of this plan.... The advantage of a massclaim on day 1 is to stop roles from being claimed later as scum could have killed anyone of them.

if we have power roles claim townie, then we essentially go into the same scenario, though I'm unsure how much more of a chance.

Still I think it's an even worse risk to take this way. I WOULD refuse to claim if all power roles did not claim.

Barring anything else, are you saying if the doctor claims townie you will refuse to claim?

[Kinetic]

CKD, don't claim yet. We're all set to mass claim, Shanba please proceed. To be quite honest, the whole Vig killing or not killing debate has zero to do with the vig claiming. Either way we want him to claim. I think that pie's directing the Vig is not a bad idea, mainly because it also has the benefit of the inspector knowing who not to investigate but giving him virtual free reign anyway, but either way we can go over that later. Right now, begin the claiming.

Mass Claim Super Order List

Note: Doctor(Angel) WILL CLAIM TOWNIE

Note: Priest will claim TOWNIE, Investigate the claimed inspector, and reveal Day 2 with results

spectrumvoid

Shanba: Has not Claimed yet.
Guardian:

Vanilla

scotmany12: Has not Claimed yet.

Urzassedatives

Fireaxe: Has not Claimed yet.
Gorrad: Has not Claimed yet.
Sefer: Has not Claimed yet.
Khelvaster: Has not Claimed yet.
CoolBot: Has not Claimed yet.
IH:

Mafia

Has not Claimed yet.
Mastermind of Sin: Has not Claimed yet.
Kinetic:

Govorner

Pie_is_good: Has not Claimed yet.

Mert

Tarhalindur: Has not Claimed yet.
Yosarian2: Has not Claimed yet.
Haut Boy: Has not Claimed yet.
curiouskarmadog: Has not Claimed yet.

Up to claim: Shanba
Next: scotmany12

[Kinetic]

By Doctor not claiming:
We lose: one more confirmed townie.
We gain: An Inspector and Vig able to continue to do their job, and have strong confirmed results. By the beginning of day two that means the possibility of two more confirmed one way or the other, and at worst one more. A doctor claiming townie doesn't hurt us even in the worst case scenario.

By the Priest not claiming day 1:
We lose: One more confirmed townie day one
We gain: A confirmed Inspector with results we can trust. If the mafia try and kill the priest among the claimed vanillas we gain a 90% chance of them missing and helping us narrow down our suspects instead of killing a confirmed townie which will hurt them all game. It is true that in the worst case scenario this could bite us in the ass, but the chance of that is virtually negligible. And even int he worst case scenario it is not a 100% town loss. Heck, with the mass claim it doesn't even hurt us that much.

IH: Wrong now, wrong all game.

[Kinetic]

you assume the game can be won in the night phase only, which is the largest flaw with this plan. You effectively try to eliminate most of the day game. Having seen the effects of a confirmed doc scum (being one in scumchat), this is very disastrous, the same with the priest. In fact, the priest could be even more dangerous.

-.-

I have never said that. Ever. In fact I believe I keep telling you that is exactly the opposite of what I've said. Mass claim is a tool that will help us, but in no way does it auto-win us the game. We still have to play the game.

Why don't you realize that this game is special, that we HAVE to claim this way or else we will NEVER have any information we can trust. I have already said, YES some of the information do gain from Mass Claim could be wrong, but we gain much more information out of mass claim than we can potentially lose.

It is quite simple why Mass Claim helps, and if by now you don't understand that... you must be scum. Plain and simple in my book.

[Kinetic]

Yos, I've actually thought of a way to prove my claim without needing to stop a lynch, I'll explain more after claimage has commenced. Also, my comments in that particular post were directly solely at IH, its true I've been pretty much ignoring everyone else, mostly because it seems to me that everyone else has been taking care of their issues. Which posts of yours would you like me to look at and comment on exactly? If you'd particularly like me to do so I'll go back and do that for you.

[Kinetic]

IH: The only role doing that at this time is Priest. If the Doc has to avoid a lynch on d2, there is a high likelihood he will not be believed.

As for the Priest, this has also been addressed. If he claims that the Inspector is indeed scum, the Priest will be lynched to confirm his alignment. If he comes up AS the priest, we know that the Inspector is indeed scum and the Vig will NK him or he will be lynched the next day. We also gain whatever information that the claimed inspector gave us and can dissect both his posts and everything he does, giving us a large amount of information.

If the priest confirms the Inspector than we need to look at multiple things to see if the Priest or the Inspector can be confirmed beyond this, but I'd like to see what happens with the claim today. I've thought of a couple ways to confirm both the Priest and the Inspector come day 2, but it requires seeing how the mafia play the game here. But basically if the scum control the Priest or Inspector today, there are ways of deducing it come Day 2.

[Kinetic]

I realize I'm being vague, but I don't want to let the scum in on my plan pre-mass claim. I continue to say AFTER the mass claim, yet still on Day 1 I will elaborate much more on anything anyone wants me to.

[Kinetic]

Shanba stop stalling please.

[Kinetic]

>< And the game is afoot! gogo scotmany!

[Kinetic]

Pie, I think the vig should choose who to target. The danger of the cop investigating the target is mitigated by the chance the scum will target the same person. I also think the vig should claim so he has at least some protection from the doc.

The doc would be protecting the inspector, I'd think. Is it really worth the risk?

The doc is 50/50 on the cop vig. Reasoning below.

Also, the doctor should literally roll a die and protect one of the vig/cop. This way, it keeps the scum from being able to kill either power role, because there is no psychological WIFOM to go through. There would be exactly a 50% chance of protecting either role, so the scum can't predict that.

This is wrong. The scenario that ensures everything to be "average" would be to weight the decision exactly according to the role's value to the town (if the cop is twice as valuable as the vig, 2:1 odds of protecting the cop).

No, MOS is correct. With a 50/50 on cop/vig the scum have at best a coin flip arrangement. And since we're forcing them into a corner with Mass Claim they cannot afford a no kill night. If it is like you say they might consider going for the Vig since he only has a 30% chance of being protected. Not so much a coin flip anymore.

[Kinetic]

And now the claim we've all been waiting for.... (or at least I've been waiting for)...

[Kinetic]

Skruffs, welcome to the game, claim or die.

[Kinetic]

CKD: That would actually be a bad idea. Don't worry, I know a way to confirm my role without pardoning and I will explain AFTER the mass claim.

Skruffs: The doc is claiming townie so he can continue to protect. If the mafia starts to hunt the doc they are helping us by narrowing townies. Otherwise they have to worry about a doc protect on the actual powerful power roles. The only way the mafia "wins" is by killing the fringe power roles, which honestly, sucks for them. And I think all the power roles have claimed by now too... lol.

[Kinetic]

np Skruffs. And thanks, I made it myself . We thought this out and talked about it a lot before we started.

[Kinetic]

We thought this out and talked about it a lot before we started.

That's a rather nice way to put it. I remember it more like almost twenty pages of people yelling pros and cons, confusion among the bystanders, and haikus. And the headaches, I remember the headaches.

lol

[Kinetic]

Could someone make a list of all the claims?

I nominate you. Gogo.

[Kinetic]

Power roles that have not claimed yet: Lyncher and Angel (Angel is claiming TOWNIE)

[Kinetic]

.
.
.
IH, calm down, I said I can confirm myself without doing that... I thought we already agreed on not pardoning the lynch since it would END the day in a no lynch?

[Kinetic]

Governor isn't much better. In fact, it isn't better... at all...............

[Kinetic]

My way isn't very crazy. If you read my role and the rules you might figure it out. I'm kinda half worried SL won't allow me to do what I'm gonna do... lol

[Kinetic]

But shhh, I didn't want anyone to know until after the claim for a reason. One I hope I don't have to worry about.

[Kinetic]

Meh. I think the Lyncher is still alive. It was actually the claim I was MOST worried the mafia would usurp if Zin was it. But hey, if he was the lyncher and the mafia don't want to fake claim, I'm not going to cry.

Now that everyone has claimed, I can explain my Gov plan. Read tech rule #4 like Shanba pointed out.

04. If the Governor is alive then twilight will last until the Governor gets his choice in or 72 hours after majority has been reached. Discussion may continue in this time. If I do not get a choice from the Governor within 72 hours, the lynch will proceed and the game will go to Night.

Basically if the Gov is alive, the twilight will last 72 hours, or until he makes the lynch. If he Gov is dead, then the twilight ends as soon as SL says so.

But the reason I insisted on not explaining this until after claim was that if some scum counter claimed me, this would not have worked, and the only way I could prove my claim was by stopping a lynch. This isn't needed anymore, since I was the only Gov claim. That should sufficiently prove my role, no? I'll just never send SL a choice to lynch or avoid it and let the 72 hours come first.

Accordingly we have all the Power roles claimed, Vig, Priest, Inspector, Mason, and Gov, with the Doc hiding still. We did not get the lyncher to claim, so we either have Zinny as the lyncher or he is hiding. I personally think the latter.

[Kinetic]

Mason prob shouldn't claim target Guardian. That would be kind of... funny. "I claimed I'd target Joe, but Joe was killed by the mafia!"

If Inspector claims a target, same thing, target just might wind up dead.

Priest claiming target isn't going to be a big deal, but he most likely will wind up dead anyway.

Vig claiming a couple of targets would be good, so Inspector doesn't choose someone the vig plans on killing.

[Kinetic]

Also, I completely disagree with IH's idea of bringing the doc out. I'm sorry, I think he's better off hiding at this time. I realize you might die now IH, but we HAD a plan to keep you alive, you broke it.

[Kinetic]

Shanba, any results?

[Kinetic]

Vig claiming target might not be too bad.

Mason might not have targeted last night. They only can use that ability once, they may have wanted to wait until they could target someone they could trust. Thats what I would do in the event I had that ability... I was thinking he might want to target one of the power roles to befriend, one he'd hope lived through the night.

I don't know about Cop claiming target... maybe a target field (between two), but I think it might backfire if he claims his target and the mafia kill them...

[Kinetic]

Also, I completely disagree with IH's idea of bringing the doc out. I'm sorry, I think he's better off hiding at this time. I realize you might die now IH, but we HAD a plan to keep you alive, you broke it.

I'm not concerned with staying alive at this point. I'm concerned with more players being confirmed. Looking at said plan, how does this leave us out in the dark? Considering we can then confirm the doc, and eliminate all future claims? I would say the doc staying unclaimed is more of a scum tactic than a town one at this point.

A FULL MASS CLAIM. This eliminates all doubt as to whether scum are fake claiming a power role today or not. Tomorrow is too much risk to have an unclaimed doc. I'm sorry, but we need to.

Mod:

what happens if the vig and scum target the same player. Will the town know said players alignment?

hmmm... doing the math in my head.... that isn't soooooo bad of an idea...

Let me sleep on it?

[Kinetic]

lol

[Kinetic]

Well I kind of think he wants to know so in case you die the information is not lost with you... And I think more than just Guardian wanted to know.

[Kinetic]

Can you at least tell us if that person is a claimed vanilla townie?

[Kinetic]

...

I hate you Shanba...

Angel, do not out yourself today, I think our Inspector found you last night. You're safe.

...

[Kinetic]

Mod: How long will twilight last if the Gov is dead?

[Kinetic]

Shanba will you promise to elaborate tomorrow at least?

[Kinetic]

CKD: I have no problems pardoning a lynch, but don't you understand: we lose a lynch if I do so. It ends the day. That is a huge thing to lose, and I'm not going to take it lightly.

I'm extremely suspicious of how off handed Tar and CKD are throwing this out there, and then CKD trying to put suspicions on me if I have issues with it. Pardoning a lynch is a BIG deal, and I don't think we should think about it lightly, or that we agreed that we are doing that like it was already decided...

Originally I thought a pardoned lynch would not end the day, so thats why I had no problem pardoning early day. Then I was told otherwise. Then I read rule 4, which explicitly stated that twilight would only last 72 hours if the governor was alive, that apparently is wrong as well. That puts a huge wrench in my plans, but I'm not going to just off-handedly pardon a lynch just because it might save my ass later. I know the mafia will kill me, I knew that when I advocated mass claim.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, why do you think the mafia will kill you? You are either the governor, which is not that much of a threat to the mafia, or you are scum. I think the mafia would go after the more powerful roles before they go after you.

I made this argument pages ago, but I'll repeat it now. I'm a confirmed innocent, leaving me alive is suicide. That being said, I won't be getting any Doc protection, the other,more powerful roles, are much more likely to get that. So the mafia can do one of three things,

1) Try and kill a more powerful role, and risk a Doc Protect,

2) Try and kill a claimed townie to try and out the doc. All that does is help narrow down townies for us when we're looking for scum, so the scum aren't going to do that (They would only be helping us, even if they DID get the doc in that case).

3) They kill off the confirmed townies that they know won't be doc protected, and go after the others later when there is more of a chance. They can wait, and if the vig kills the doc, or we lynch him, then they can safely kill the other power roles.

Also, after much thought I still think IH's plan, outing the doc, is a bad one. I thought about it, but I'd rather a wild card doctor then a dead docter on night one. ESPECIALLY if you guys want me to pardon a lynch.

I REALLY don't think its a good idea to pardon a lynch, we need to start lynching. The reason day 2 has more information than day 1 is BECAUSE we lynch someone and gain information from that. All that will happen if I cause a no lynch is that the scum will get even more of a head start than they already have...

[Kinetic]

why did we mass claim again? We are suppose to take you at your word that you are the Gov? How do we know that Zin was not the Gov. or a Mason? What happened to this..

I'm the Governor! I can prove my role before the day even ends. Go ahead, continue toward the lynch. In addition this makes it so that the only roles the scum can claim with ANY likeliness of hiding are Priest and Inspector

, and the other one can check the first one! If we have a conflict then we can take care of it! Wow, you're telling me if they claim against each other we might actually have to play a game! They can't have both, so guess what, mass claiming is the right choice..

Now mafia can claim Gov. and we just dont know. Now that you have gotten the entire town to mass claim, you do not want to confirm your role? AND you think anyone who mentions that this doesnt seem to compute is scummy? How do we confirm your role Kinetic? How do we confirm the Mason's role if someone doesnt verify that MoS contacted them....

Explain to me how do we confirm these roles? If these roles are not confirmed...they should be catorgizes with the rest of us vanilla townies

Wow, thank you for bolding and proving my point CKD...

The bolded section clearly states "Before the day ends". At that point I thought the day didn't end if I pardoned the lynch. I was wrong, THAT is why I'm very worried now....

And CKD, I'm saying that we shouldn't just lightly throw away to the side "Yea, we can afford to no lynch day one". It isn't THAT simple!

[Kinetic]

Kinetic. Pardon the lynch today or die. A kill with claims, unless a doc is dead, is going to be the same thing.

Srsly.

And I won't be bullied! Not by you!

Srsly.

[Kinetic]

The bolded section clearly states "Before the day ends". At that point I thought the day didn't end if I pardoned the lynch. I was wrong, THAT is why I'm very worried now....

So, what was all that talk that there was some way you could confirm yourself without using your ability that you would only tell us about once the massclaim was done?

Have you read after the mass claim at all? Shanba even figured out my plan before I said it...

The rules said if the Governor was was alive at the end of the day then twilight would last 72 hours. But I just assumed that if he was dead then twilight would end like normal, as soon as the mod noticed a lynch had occurred. Well SL just came back and either changed that rule so that I couldn't confirm myself that way, or clarified the way he originally intended it to be, thus I can't confirm myself that way...

[Kinetic]

Khel: Honestly, if the doc claims today and does not die night one, the Mafia are playing a big game of WIFOM. In my opinion, the doc should stay hidden and mess with the mafia's head.

Also, after thinking about it this is my decision on using my Governor ability: If near the end of the day I find the person about to be lynched scummy, I'm going to let the lynch go. If I think that person is a town and either it is a bad or sum driven lynch, I will pardon them. I'll announce my decision at Lynch -1.

I'm doing this for two reasons.

One, I'm not going to just throw out what I consider a good lynch just to confirm myself. If you think that I'm scum for that, great, make that case. But as it stands, I'm confirmed in my own head, and that is all that matters to me.

Second, I don't want the scum to relax and think that no matter who is brought up to lynch today that they are safe and will be pardoned. The scum know my claim is true because they know that there is no reason for a townie to claim this power role if they aren't it, and I'm not one of them. So they would expect, if the pressure is high enough for me to pardon, that no matter who it is, even one of their members, they don't have to worry.

Well I'm saying this, even if it causes my own lynch, if I feel that the person about to be lynched today is scum, I'm going to let the lynch go through.

[Kinetic]

IH, honestly you're the one I'm most concerned is scum, I was honestly surprised that you didn't claim townie.

That being said, I completely understand you trying to get me killed as the scum hiding in a power role, because then it would "confirm" you. Except when the Vig kills me, we're down one confirmed townie because you're an idiot.

I also would understand if you decided to take the mafia's safe claim because I would have personally led your lynch this day had you claimed townie.

So yea, entice the vig to kill me if I don't stop the lynch today. And while you're at it scum, why not claim you have a guilty on the Inspector. I do not believe you for a second, and I'm going to keep my eye on you all game. One slip up, and I mean one, and I will be all over you like Micheal Jackson on little boys.

As it stands, I have a small list of people in my head that I would stop the lynch of, and a small list of people I wouldn't. That list will not become public.

The ONLY person I might listen to if they see the lynch coming and they tell me to stop the lynch is Shanba.

[Kinetic]

MOS: The only way the person you contacted could be in trouble confirming you as mason is if you turn up scum. It is completely possible you could have targeted scum so it doesn't matter what your target comes up. If they do come up scum, that might be interesting for you, but otherwise it doesn't do anything for them except confirm you as town...

So if you did target someone night one, you need to tell us. If you didn't, well then you need to keep who you do target N2 a secret, I agree.

[Kinetic]

I have no problem directing the Vig. I do have a problem directing him at me . But directing him helps 2 things: 1 if Shanba is the true inspector she can know who not to inspect so that we don't have to worry about them targeting the same person, and he can also help direct him away from here current secret innocents.

[Kinetic]

Mod

, is this the case?). This means we confirm the Governor or, if he is scum, lynch him automatically. That's not a bad deal..

Actually, that is a bad idea. Read the rules, I already asked SL this question (I can't remember if it was by PM or in the thread), but the Gov cannot pardon himself. Its in the first or second post under questions now.

[Kinetic]

I've been in other games with CKD... I actually think he is town... I can't really elaborate, mainly because my reasoning is based on a game that isn't finished. So I really wouldn't prefer a lynch on him. If I had to choose, among the claimed townies who to lynch, I would choose either: Gorrad or pie_is_good.

As for Tar: I would choose him, but I'm pretty sure he is the Lyncher... His question sounds to me like him wanting to know if the Lyncher still wins if we pardon the person he wants to Lynch... Seems to me only the Lyncher would want to know that. If SL came back with something along the lines of "The Lyncher would win, even if the lynch was pardoned" I would expect him to come out, say his target, then say we could prove the Gov and let him win at the same time...

Just a guess though .

[Kinetic]

Tar, self voting doesn't convince me you are town. Also, telling me what I

have

to do doesn't convince me to do it either. Usually that has the opposite effect on me.

[Kinetic]

lol Guardian.

No, I believe you about my ability. I agree with you, that is why I'm really surprised/annoyed at the people who want me to just use it willy/nilly. I'll use it if I absolutely have to, but I would prefer not to.

[Kinetic]

Tar: I realize that, but I'm not going to just use it just to use it. That isn't in the town's best interest in my opinion. If it becomes needed for me to be 100% confirmed, I'll do so, but I don't think the mafia will keep me around that long honestly. They know I'm not lying so if it seems like the town is keeping me around, it only hurts them in the end.

[Kinetic]

I'm confused about Tar... on the one hand I'm thinking hes acting quite scummy, on the other hand, it seems like he's playing quite a gambit here....

[Kinetic]

Mod already answered that Tar:

Q: Does the game end when the lyncher's condition is fulfilled?
A: No, however, he will leave the game when that happens.

[Kinetic]

Also the Lyncher only wins if he's alive. And since he's neutral and if his target is NKed he's just a survivor, the town doesn't care if he wins or not, since it doesn't effect us. That is why if the Lyncher claims, the town really won't go after him at all, and the mafia will really only go after him in revenge... And even then it isn't very likely.

[Kinetic]

IH: Can you tell me, you cannot think of any reason the Governor ability might hurt the town?

[Kinetic]

Fudge.... Dammit.... Christ... IH might get his wish if this turns out like I think it will....

Vote:Khel

Now I have to know. I checked the claim list, and if Khel is scum that means either the Vig or Inspector is scum.... dammit all to hell.

[Kinetic]

Khel.... you're fucking caught. Just claim. As much as I hate IH's plan at this point you fucked up and the only way the town will know for sure at this point is if you claim. I think you know what I'm talking about.

[Kinetic]

I know he's town. But Flameaxe just got him killed tonight. If he doesn't claim now it could just screw up the game. He needs to claim now.

[Kinetic]

I remembered noting that when he first said it in my mind and hoping beyond all hope it wasn't what he is going to say now -.-

[Kinetic]

Alright, I'm not completely opposed to Shanba's idea. My main worry of the day was we were going to randomly bandwagon someone and the entire time they knew I would pardon them and they would get away scot free. Hell, to tell yo the truth, I was 99% sure I was going to pardon at the end of the day, but I did not

want the scum to know that with such certainty

.

If I said that I would pardon someone no matter what, it would be the most anti-town thing for me to say. At least with Shanba's plan we can continue the day rather normally, not have to worry about the Vig killing the same person the cop investigates, confirm the vig, and not really

lose

our lynch.

[Kinetic]

Bleh, I guess that is more of a mistake in what I meant. The way I feel is that I'm still not completely for using my pardon, but this is at least one of the few cases where I feel it wouldn't be a complete cluster fuck if I said I would. Using it, just to use it, seems barbaric and counter-productive to me. At least with your plan you've looked at how using the pardon could hurt us if we just decide to use it no matter what, and have found a useful work around that deals with that issue.

[Kinetic]

IH... Put 2 and 2 together. Read back when Khel originally made that post and HOW he made that post. Also note my response.

Please hit yourself in the balls after word.

I need Khel to return and TALK, now!

If he doesn't then do what I think he is going to do there is a high possibility that both him and Shanba are scum. If he comes back and says what I think he is going to say, he's 100% town in my opinion and Shanba is still unconfirmed either way.

You should be smiling. You might get your wish after all.

[Kinetic]

I see what you're saying.

I don't see why you don't consider any other possibility besides that one.

I see two possibilities right now IH. I'm sure they're the same as you. Either way, it requires Khel's response before I can know which way this goes.

[Kinetic]

You know... that is incredibly interesting...

In my opinion it has been the Priest, Mason, and the lesser extant of Viggy that has been bothering me.

MOS has an easy way to confirm himself, yet hasn't yet... If he just hasn't contacted anyone yet... fine, but claiming you've already contacted someone and not saying who, or that person not just coming out and just out and out confirming you is scummy as hell... If you are MOS's mason partner, please just say so. Save us all a bunch of time...

Priest has a much weaker case... and with IH trying to out the doc (he might have got his wish on that one >>), I wouldn't put it against him to throw everything into chaos by outing the doc, letting the doc die night one, claim Inspector is scum, and then after Inspector lynch, lynching him would be easy...

The Vig case, though, is by FAR the most interesting.

However, before I go into many details on this I need something.

KHEL STOP FUCKING LURKING AND GET YOUR ASS OUT HERE. SL: Can we get a confirmation that he has been prodded or a replacement is being sought for him?

After he claims, I'll explain completely... Best Case Scenario... we may have actually outed three scum... worst case scenario... well, its pretty bad, but I'm pretty sure everyone knows so its not much worse than what might happen...

[Kinetic]

EBWOP: I should clarify, worst case scenario is kind of already occurred, I just need some confirmation on Khel's end before I continue.

[Kinetic]

So you are officially claiming doc then Khel?

[Kinetic]

Khel:
ANSWER MY DIRECT QUESTION

[Kinetic]

IH: He still hasn't claimed Doc....

Thats the annoying thing, I want him to say, point blank yes or no. Don't tell me what has or has not gone through my mind. Your plan to "confirm" him is silly. You think I want YOU confirming him or not. Fuck that.

Khel, answer the fucking question directly or be lynched. I'm not going to ask again.

[Kinetic]

You haven't read as deeply into this as I have. The fact that you're acting like this is pretty much convinced me you are the scum hiding in our midsts. Khel better come and say directly or I'm going to prove how he is scum and you're in it with him.

Now Khel, start talking now.

[Kinetic]

Ok: Let's put it this way Yos, I'm relatively sure that Khel is not, in fact, the doctor. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is a real doctor. Once Khel "confirms" he's the doc, I'm going to advise the real doc to come out of hiding and really reveal himself, catching Khel in his lie.

O, but it gets better.

Skruffs declared Fork, Gorrad believed immediately that meant vanilla townie. Why? Because one of the mafia at that time had ALREADY chosen the mafia safe claim, so the rest of the mafia were staying away from it. Gorrad already knew that the mafia safe claim was used so just put him in vanilla townie. This really paints Gorrad and Skruffs in a VERY scummy light.

So who sits perfectly in these positions?


Shanba: Inspector
Guardian: Townie
scotmany12: Townie
Flameaxe: Vig
Gorrad: Townie
Sefer: Townie
Khelvaster: Townie
CoolBot: Townie
IH: Priest
Mastermind of Sin: Mason
Kinetic: Governor
Pie_is_good: Townie
Tarhalindur: Townie.
Yosarian2: Townie
Skruffs: Townie
curiouskarmadog: Townie.

Only two claimed power roles (err... three if you include me I guess... just realized that), Shanba and Flameaxe. Vig is easy enough to figure out if he's scum or not. But Shanba isn't. It all seems to point to fit. Shanba's stead fast refusal to start claiming until all the scum were on the same page (he was in the perfect position to stall the claim as long as possible). So who would he be waiting for to make sure they were ready?

HautBoy/Skruffs
Scotmany
Khel

... Looks like I have no choice now but to prove my power today, but FlameAxe has to as well. Shanba, tell us your results, because I'm feeling rather sure you're scum. I'm pretty sure Khel is fake-claiming Doc, and if the real doc comes out, we could very well prove it all. In addition, the real doc coming out will help protect IH, who may be the only person who can prove this all...

God help me... I actually think IH isn't scum

>>

[Kinetic]

Guardian, unfortunately the town is not going to listen to you. If you were another power role, then maybe, but since people think we could be partners, at this point I think I have to confirm myself. I'm not too worried about it, we'll be directing the Vig most likely onto a good scum target, so its not as bad as it could be.

[Kinetic]

So, MBL is at -2 by my count. Thought I would just throw that out there so anyone who votes now notices that.

[Kinetic]

>> Sorry.

[Kinetic]

Ok, I think y'all are reading WAY too much into when I said that Skruffs claimed townie. I already explained my logic in 740. Is there a problem with it? I think I made a pretty safe assumption. As for the other part of Kinetic's argument, with regards to Khel and Shanba, that makes a lot of sense. I'm still really suspicious of a Kinetic/Guardian pairing, so I'd really like to see Kinetic pardon as confirmation, but if he does pardon, then I think he's got a great plan. If he doesn't, then he's just trying to shift suspicion away from him (which I'm starting to suspect a bit with how much he read into the Me/Skruffs thing), and he should be lynched. Either way, I think we're onto something here.

Actually Gorrad, most of the suspicion on that is heaped on you, and not Skruffs. Yes, I like it pointed out, mainly because the possibility exists, but your quick determination that it was town can be because as scum you knew he wasn't scum and was claiming townie or because you are scum with him and knew that the scum safe claim was already made.

I would lynch you before Skruffs, and only if you came up guilty would I look deeper into Skruffs.

Also, even though I pretty much think Shanba might be scum, the plan he brought up is not a bad one. If FlameAxe agrees to vig the lynch target, I will pardon them to confirm myself. I think he already agreed, but I just wanted to make sure.

[Kinetic]

Also, Shanba, at this point I'm sure enough your scum to think that your "investigation" target of the day will "come out" if we are about to kill a scumbag. You'll declare them innocent, and reroute the lynch (vig) of the day to a non-scumbag.

So I want you to tell us, here and now, who that target is. All you got is innocent or guilty, so there should be nothing wrong with you telling us. Yes, there is the POSSIBILITY that the mafia MIGHT kill them, but honestly, if the mafia is going to waste time killing investigated townies, then they are not killing the other confirmed innocents, i.e. myself, flameaxe, etc etc. And you REALLY should be more worried about yourself right now. There is no 100% chance of you living this night, even if we have the doctor.

Your refusal to reveal your result now will only mean that IF you reveal it later it will not be believed by me. I cannot speak to if others will believe it, but I see the prevailing wind moving in the direction of no.

[Kinetic]

IH... what? You're saying I should pardon a lynch. Something that might hurt the town, but MOS confirming he is the mason (which doesn't do anything BUT confirm the mason) is something he shouldn't do?

[Kinetic]

He's unwilling to prove himself.

IH... this is a lie. Out and out lie. I said I didn't want to because I don't think its a good idea. I listed my reasons, all of which were agreed upon that they were good reasons. Even so, I have agreed to go along with Shanba's plan which will have me use the pardon ability.

Learn to Read. Stop trying to paint this picture of me that isn't true because you are retarded.

[Kinetic]

Khel. Answer the damn question.

[Kinetic]

Shanba, the reason I feel Khel is being evasive is because I really DON'T think he's the doctor. If he claims Doc, but isn't, and the real doc claims, it sets up the question of "Why".

The way I see it, he was planning on using the mafia safe claim, but someone used it before him. Three possibilities there. Myself, Flameaxe, and you. Myself and Flame can confirm ourselves, but only IH can confirm you.

Now, if Khel, by some fluke IS the doctor, the scum will know. It will suck to lose him, but since he already outed himself, its a little too late for that. Leaving an outed doctor alive is, frankly, suicide for the scum. This will give IH the one turn he needs to confirm or cause suspicion to fall upon you.

So yea. I want Khel to CONFIRM he is saying he is the doctor. I then want the real doctor (if there is one) to come out of hiding and prove him to be lying.

We then will proceed with phase two of my master plan! Hahahahaha.

*cough, hack, weeze* Laughing maniacally is really rough on the throat.

[Kinetic]

I wouldn't be surprised if the real doc is waiting to counter claim AFTER Khel claims doc. He's avoiding the issue, and the only reason to avoid it now is to say: "I never claimed doc. Jeez, I'm just vanilla, I was trying to draw a Night kill and NOT out the real doc. You guys fail"

So its not as if no counter claim at this point isn't reasonable.

[Kinetic]

So, I was lurking intentionally. The reason for that was that I am a pro-town powerrole and didn't want to draw too much attention to myself. On that topic, it would be a really idea to fully massclaim. Revealing all the identities of our powerroles would be a terrible idea. Knowing who is cop, doc, and so on is too advantageous to scum.

Instead, we should have a townie/not-townie claim. We will then do things based off of how many townie/non-townie claims.

Ok. So we are led to believe he is a Pro-Town role.

I claim vanilla townie.

Wha-wha-what? Ok... so then it might be logical to assume he might be the doc. Except:

If the doc is dead and the scum claimed doc, that will be almost impossible to catch. How are we going to deal with that possibility?

This post doesn't make sense if he is the doc. I could see it as him possibly distancing himself from the doc, but he has absolutely no reason to post this. If he IS the doc, then he would know the scum WOULDN'T claim doc until at least he was dead. I don't see him posting this if he is the doc.

Kelv:

"Intentionally Lurking" early on, because he said he is a pro-town power role, and didn't want to draw attention. Here, have some quotes!

So, I was lurking intentionally. The reason for that was that I am a pro-town powerrole and didn't want to draw too much attention to myself.

I claim vanilla townie.

Self explanatory. Not all that many posts through the game except scattered quick posts.

Final Analysis:

No real read due to not a whole lot of posts.

Vote: Flameaxe

I slipped up as doc. You just went out of your way to tell everyone that I am doc.

Ok now, Here is your suspected Doc claim post...

Oh, and just in case I am WIFOMing a mafia kill and the real doc is still alive, PLEASE DON'T CLAIM.

And here is the post immediately after word. WTF? Sounds like he's distancing himself from the claim immediately. To me, this looks like him setting up a possibility if he is counter-claimed to squirm out of it. There is NO reason why the real doc would need to do this.

And since then?

Khel hasn't confirmed that the claim was doc yet. Khel, can you do so please? Also, I'm in favor of Shanba's plan, but I think a Shanba/Khel pairing is likely by Kinetic's logic if Kinetic pardons the lynch and disproves my Guardian/Kinetic pairing theory.

Is it just me, or does this seem really, really scummy (extreme rolefishing) after

Anyone who questions him, or asks him to confirm his CLAIM is role fishing and scummy? WTF WTF WTF. This makes no logical sense. It isn't role fishing if you are asking someone to confirm THEIR OWN STATEMENTS.

[Kinetic]

Shanba, in the game you mention (It is still going on, and I am in it), the situation is different. Please don't talk about ongoing games. Thank you.

[Kinetic]

Ok, this is fine. Actually this is perfectly fine.

Will the real doctor please reveal himself at this time.

And let chaos and lynching ensue. Also Part III of my master plan is still here, so please don't lynch Khel until the real doctor counter claims him.

[Kinetic]

Coolbot, calm down. We need the real doc to come out right now, or what I'm thinking doesn't work.

[Kinetic]

so het up?

What?

Never mind. I'm surprised at Coolbot though. It was IH's plan to have the doc claim anyway. No one except me said it was a bad idea. Now that I have a plan that would, in fact, force the doc to claim to find a scum, you think its a bad idea?

Anyway, I was hoping the real doc would claim, but now I'm not so sure its a good idea. :/

Anyway,

Unvote

Khel isn't the play today.

Vote:Yosarian

Yos is.

[Kinetic]

I don't completely disagree with Shanba. My main issue with using the pardon first day was that A) We don't know the alignment of the lynch victim, B)If makes the lynch useless as there is no pressure on the player, and C) It forces us to lose a lynch to confirm me.

Although we are technically losing the vig kill, I agree that the Vig after the first lynch is a coin flip at best. We can use the vig better later anyway. So I'll go forward with the current plan if that is what the town thinks is best.

Can we DROP that subject now? Its a distraction now. I'm talking to both Shanba and Guardian (and IH to a lesser extant). Its decided.

[Kinetic]

Why we aren't going to lynch Khel today:

Because, despite evidence he is lying, somewhere, we really don't KNOW if he is the doc or not. Without the real doc counter claiming that is.

That being said, EVEN if the real doc counter claims now, Khel is STILL not the play for today.

Why you may ask? Well despite being incredibly scummy, we don't know for certain he is lying. The only people who do are scum.

I agree with MOS here:

Vote: Khelvaster

The doc doesn't need to counterclaim, Khelvaster counterclaimed himself. Although, I see no reason why Khelvaster wouldn't have confirmed himself to be doc to draw out the doc claim if he was scum, so

Unvote

. Khelvaster is not the play for today, but he is a convenient person for scum to push against.

The reason I voted you is because you have rallied against me from the start, even though I said I had a confirmable power role.

Your "Bandwagon" to claim plan was utterly ludicrous, and was shot down as the scum logic it was immediately. Especially after you enacted your plan on a POWER ROLE that even said he was one.

Third, despite Khel doing effectively the same thing, you didn't want to jump on him. I was the ONLY person who was pestering Khel and EVERYONE was againt me for it. And guess what, I got results out of it, which is MORE than anyone else.

But MOST of all, I have the Mafia WIFOMing themselves now. Khel very well MIGHT be the doctor. And the mafia don't know. They might know if he is mafia or not, and honestly that would be important. The reason I want the REAL doc to claim now is IF Khel is still alive late game, we don't know if the real doc is dead or not. However, if the real doc claims now, we know one of two things. Khel is either scum, or the real doc. And the person counter claiming him is either scum, or the real doc.

And what do we do? Nothing. It would be insane for the mafia to leave the one alive that is the REAL doc. Their best play would be to kill the doc.

And during that time IH confirms Shanba, I confirm through pardon, Flame confirms through Vig, MOS maybe confirms who knows with him, and IH most likely will die soon after that so he either is confirmed or not, what ever. He's not a huge deal right away, unless he claims Shanba to be scum.

So yes, Khel is NOT the play today. If he is a townie lying, let the Mafia find that out when they kill him. If he IS the real doc, well the mafia already know, and it would be suicide for them to not kill him and try to WIFOM him over the nights. And if he's scum, well he's going to live, and we'll know eventually if the doc really is alive.

[Kinetic]

MOS: Truthfully, I was trying to coax a mafia to counter-claim Khel, trying to make the mafia think that would have me go 100% after Khel's lynch. Too many people jumped the gun and began voting Khel though so I didn't think it was safe to continue that attempt.

If someone did counterclaim him, I would have said "Ok, lynch neither, one most likely will be dead in a round, we'll lynch the other day 2. gg"

[Kinetic]

MOS: Truthfully, I was trying to coax a mafia to counter-claim Khel, trying to make the mafia think that would have me go 100% after Khel's lynch. Too many people jumped the gun and began voting Khel though so I didn't think it was safe to continue that attempt.

If someone did counterclaim him, I would have said "Ok, lynch neither, one most likely will be dead in a round, we'll lynch the other day 2. gg"

So..Now I'm confused. Are you saying that you originally believed Khel and was just trying to get him mislynched?

I wasn't trying to get him mislynched.

I am saying that I thought he might be the doc, but also that he might now. But I was half using his ambiguity to see if I could set up a scum trap. I didn't expect him to unclaim willingly, but I'm not unhappy with the results.

[Kinetic]

I feel the people that are jumping on Khel are the same people, and have the same motivations, as those who jumped on me. I'm going to play the game as I see it, and that includes not going with the

easy

lynch if I don't think its the

right

lynch.

[Kinetic]

I won't make a claim one way or the other. The mafia might end up losing their NK. Here are the conclusions you guys can reach, depending what happens d2


1a. There is only 1 NK, who is not me--I am townie, and the real doc protected me. The vig's NK targetted someone he thought was scum.

1b. There is only 1 NK, who is not me--I am doc, and the mafia or vig targetted my protectorate.

2. There is no NK--either the vig was retarded and went after me in addition to the mafia, or he couldn't make his mind who to kill. The mafia targetted me, but the doc protected me.

3. There are 2 NKs, one of which is me--I was doc, and the vig didn't target the guy I protected

4. There is 1 NK, me--The mafia targetted me, and the real doc was retarded and protected someone else.





That is why I won't put anything definitive about my doc/nondoc status until d2.

Ummm what?

Vote: Khel

Scum trying to get the doc protect. I see now.

[Kinetic]

Khel, you are either scum or the doc. There is no vanilla townie option as far as I'm concerned.

[Kinetic]

Not exactly why I voted for you Yos, but I pretty much got what I wanted to get from you when I voted for you.

Anyway, Khel's play has been really disturbing, but I keep leaning on MOS's side where he could still possibly be the newbest Doc in existence.

Two possibilities come to mind. 1) We might need the real doc to claim to clear all this up. or 2) Zin may have been the doc, with the doc as the mafia's safe claim.

[Kinetic]

Khel: Stop. Acting. Like. Dumb. Scum.

[Kinetic]

Ummmm Yos... if Guardian is the lyncher and you are the lyncher target, going after you on the first day would be... dumb. Especially since the current plan is Pardon and Vig.

[Kinetic]

I said that claiming powerrole followed by a townie claim, given the fact that the doc was told to claim Townie, meant that I was doc. I further said that, however, I *might* just happen to be a townie who actually claimed doc just to make the mafia lose an NK.

When I say I won't make a claim one way or the other, I meant that I would make a Definitive claim one way or the other.

Ok, that makes a little more sense. Part of my brain still thinks you're scum trying to stall your way out of trouble here, but just in case you are telling the truth here, I'm willing to wait a day or perhaps two and see what happens.

unvote:Khelvaster

vote:Guardian

What? So let me get this straight: Townie claiming doc to get NKed in this game = good. Townie claiming doc in other games = bad? Umm, no, I'm not going to let this complete change go.

Vote:Yos

[Kinetic]

Unvote;Vote:Yos

Sorry forgot to unvote.

[Kinetic]

Yea, I made that connection like 10 pages ago, unvoted him, then re-voted him when he actually said he might still claim vanilla townie.

So I'm still voting you, now its not just because of hypocritical play but also because you can't (or won't) read what was already stated. I'm pretty sure you called me scummy about it to when I did it, but I'm way too busy to look right now.

[Kinetic]

I have no words for the complete idiocy displayed in the above post.

[Kinetic]

And Khel. I have a problem with you not telling us TODAY because you might get night killed. If you are not the doc, and the doc doesn't protect you (Which by all means he SHOULDN'T because then you're SCUM), and you get killed, WHAT ARE WE TO BELIEVE THEN! What part of CORPSE RIPPING game don't you understand?!?!

There is 0% chance you are a vanilla townie Khel as far as I'm concerned. You're either the doc or you are scum. It is REALLY that simple. The fact that you keep playing this god damn game of "Maybe I am, but don't counter-claim if I'm not, but maybe I'm not so protect me because the scum are going to kill me" bullshit is just that, bullshit. I'm growing tired of your flippant attitude on this issue.

Doc: If you are not Khel, please don't listen to his garbage about protecting him. All you will do is leave the people who are REALLY in trouble threatened.

[Kinetic]

The

Only

reason I am not voting Khel right this moment is because there is STILL an off chance he is the doc. I'll admit, that possibility is dwindling in my head, but if he IS the doc then the mafia will kill him. There is no possibility that Khel is a vanilla townie, and the ONLY people that Khel is helping by not coming out at this point and saying exactly what he means is the mafia.

Hell I almost wouldn't put it past the mafia to try and kill Khel to SEE if the Doc protects him or not if he is mafia!

There is no need for them to WIFOM to kill the Inspector or not because the Doc is a better kill anyway and then they'll know for SURE and the Inspector, Vig, and Priest are going next. 0 Chance of super cop.

[Kinetic]

SL what is the current VC?

[Kinetic]

I'm sorry Khel. You have exactly ZERO weight with me for anything.

Vote:Gorrad

[Kinetic]

Khel is not a vanilla townie. Period.

[Kinetic]

Gorrad:

1. Its day one. No case is going to be more than speculation at best. He felt Yos was scummy because he wasn't acting like he normally does in games and Yos claimed Vanilla Townie. Its not much, but you expecting more is scummier.

2. I've played in Guardian in a couple of games. Suffice to say he is better at reading me right now than I am of him. He also knows how stupid it would be for scum to claim gov. He doesn't need to make a case though about this, because no matter what he says it will just make everyone think he's scummy no matter what his reasons. He could be scum if I'm scum or scum if I'm town by your own admission, so what does his opinion on me have to do with his own potential to be scum?

3. He's playing his cards close right now. I don't agree with it, but I also understand it. This will hurt him in day 2 and 3, but right now its not that big of a deal. He's throwing out his suspicions and seeing what sticks.

4. Yet there are always going to be people like you who no matter how he plays, just because he brought up the mass claim, will think he's scum. I'm pretty sure this is a classic case of the "Too Townie" logical fallacy. Since mass claim is a very powerful town move, since he's advocating it so strongly, he must be scum?

What is screaming scum right now is you. You're quick to jump around and you keep attacking the oddest people. The two highest people on my scumdar are you and Yos. I'll be fine with voting either, but right now you're standing out.

[Kinetic]

If he was a vanillia townie trying to draw scum kills, he would NOT have asked for doc protection.

Thank you for that totally vacuous statement.

I am assuming you didn't read what I posted, instead of assuming you deliberately constructed a totally false opinion of me.
I stated quite clearly in my last post that the scum possibly losing their kill was an essential part of what I was trying to do. Giving them the safe route of NKing me after a real doc claim on my part wouldn't have strained scum enough into really needing my lynched. This was a big trap I set up to winnow down the pool of potential scum. This wasn't me claiming doc to draw NK (which is bad policy anyway.)

I have no idea what you're talking about, but you're worse at being the doc than Guardian.

[Kinetic]

...

Wow....

Khel, let me explain it to you again. You are either

THE WORST SCUM EVER

or the

WORST DOCTOR EVER

. Simple as that.

I refuse to vote for you at this time because I think there is enough possibility of you being the doc. I refuse to listen to any of your inane gibberish ramblings because even if you AREN'T scum, the way you have played so far is SOO bad I have zero trust in any of your opinions. I voted Gorrad because agreeing that you have brain cells is scummy.

[Kinetic]

...

Wow....

Khel, let me explain it to you again. You are either

THE WORST SCUM EVER

or the

WORST DOCTOR EVER

. Simple as that.

I refuse to vote for you at this time because I think there is enough possibility of you being the doc. I refuse to listen to any of your inane gibberish ramblings because even if you AREN'T scum, the way you have played so far is SOO bad I have zero trust in any of your opinions. I voted Gorrad because agreeing that you have brain cells is scummy.

That is an

ad hominem

argument. Respond to my post, not to me. You're starting to act like BM. Just prove you are governor. That's all I ask of you. Our vig can NK whoever you saved from lynch.

....


No, what you are doing is making an argument that is saying thus: "I think that Kinetic and Guardian are scum. So we should try and lynch Guardian, so if Kinetic is scum, Guardian will be lynched and then Kinetic can be vigged"

But what will happen is this: "Guardian will be pardoned, there by PROVING YOU ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY COMPLETELY UNEQUIVIQUIBLY WRONG. And thus your ENTIRE reason for finding Guardian scummy is then thrown RIGHT out the window. But since the current plan to prove the vig means vigging the lynch target, even though you now have NO REASON for Guardian being scum, Guardian will STILL be killed."

So, if you TRULY believe Guardian and me can be scum, and you want me to prove myself, we will CONTINUE with the right plan. When I am proven innocent, killing Guardian (at least based solely on that) will be wrong.

And my attack is not Ad hominid (You spelled it wrong, btw ). It is based solely on your (very bad) play this game. I gave you the benefit of the doubt about 20 times. And each time you continued to act like worthless scum. Just because you're talking now doesn't mean I'm going to let you slide.

[Kinetic]

And that is why I think you are scum so much. You throw logic to the wind in favor of WIFOM. Guardian linked himself to you. Townies don't link themselves with anyone they don't know is town. Scum can link to both scum and town. They unconsciously link to scum, consciously to town. If you are proven town, it could be Guardian specifically wanting you to make that defence of him, since he treated you so well. OMGUS works in the opposite way too--OMG you're awesome.

-.- You are the one being illogical.

Logic dictates:

You think that I am scum.
Because you think I am scum, you think that Guardian is scum with me.
Visa vi, if I am not scum, you have no reason to think Guardian is scum.
Thus: If I pardon the lynch today, there is no reason to lynch/vig Guardian based solely on that.

I'm sorry, I missed the mistake in my logic there. Where is the WIFOM? I don't see any.

Now second:

I do currently have Guardian higher on my possible town list then my possible scum list.
Am I sure he is town? No. Does my gut feeling, based on what I know about Guardian say he is town? Yes, it does.
There are other players, Yos, Gorrad, and yourself specifically, that have me worried. I would vote for you in a HEART BEAT if I didn't think you have a decent likelihood of being the real doc.

Third:
A Request from me: Use the "Preview" button before posting and make sure your quotes are correct. It is very annoying to try and decipher what you are trying to say and what was actually something someone else said.

Fourth:

I think chances Khel is doc are extremely low. If he is, he's playing very poorly. Someone suggested he was setting up a claim for an offed power role, but got beat to it by some other scum - thus the not a doc nonsense. I find this quite likely. And with his assertion the cop will clear him, I suspect he's the godfather.

I agree, however despite his chances of being the doc being low, the fact that he might be is enough to persuade me not to lynch him at this time. If he is, the scum know it, and they would be useless if they didn't kill him tonight. This is a case we should save for he 3rd or 4th day if Khel is still alive, a doc save has not occurred, and no other doc has counter claimed him.

Fifth:

Khel, you basically have no credibility now. All your grand plan accomplishes is the neutralize the doc, whoever he is, and outing him day 2. And at every point, you look like scum madly scrambling to get out of this mess you've created for yourself. You should make a plain claim we can evaluate. It won't change my mind, but it might change other's.

Strange post. Coolbot, if you're so sure that Khelv is scum

regardless of his claim

, why are you giving him advice

to help him get out of lynch?

I'm only responding to Pie's question because Coolbot is echoing sentiments that I have stated earlier in the game.

Basically Khel is either the doc or he is scum. It is really that simple. By him being this ambiguous about it, all he is doing if he is the doc is helping the scum. If he is scum, well, he's pretty much doing everything right. Trying to say he is both the doc and a vanilla townie at the same time while saying neither at the same time. It is very scummy, and the reason he has no credibility with me or several other players.

Sixth:

Fuck it. Coolbot has me convinced.

Unvote, Vote: Khelvaster

His play makes perfect sense as a scum ploy, not much sense as townie or doc.

Agreed, however we also have to take into account that Khel may actually be an

idiot

new player. If he is, then we need to err on the side of caution at this time. If he IS the doctor, the scum have no reason not to take him out, and unfortunately only they know for certain (and the real doc, if he is still around).

As such, unless the real doc claims (which at this point I'm unsure if that would be a good thing or not), Khel should not be the lynch target for today.

Seventh:

I have other things going on in my life such that if I am not enjoying a game I sure as hell am going to get replaced.

I think that being about to be nailed up as scum d1 and having your partner outed too would be a prime reason for someone as apparently comitted as Guardian to quit.

Khel, the relentless way you are going after this is only making me want to vote you more, not less. I am secure in the fact that I know what my alignment is and I know I can prove it, yet I find if disconcerting that despite me saying I am willing, able, and currently planning on proving it, you continue to go along with this notion that somehow I won't.

Let's put it simply: If I do not pardon the lynch today, I WILL be lynched tomorrow, no matter WHAT my alignment is. So if you are SO sure of me being scum that you want to lynch Guardian (which is absurd if you think about it...), wait until Day 2.

I have played in enough games to know that Guardian understands that me claiming Gov. would be, simply idiotic. He understood the Mass Claim dynamics of this game before anyone, it wouldn't be a stretch to think he would also understand which roles the scum could claim with the possibility of hiding until endgame.

The Governor is NOT an endgame mafia role. Simple as that. All claiming the Gov. as scum would do is get you lynched quick and early. Besides the Vig it is the only power role in this game like that.

I think the reason he thinks I'm so obviously town has nothing to do with the fact that he is possible scum, but more to do with how well he knows how I play as scum and town.

In Conclusion:

I think the bandwagons on both Guardian and Khel at this point are completely idiotic. I think we should focus on other players, and currently Yos and Gorrad, in my opinion, should be the lynch of the day. Gorrad is at the top of my personal list.

[Kinetic]

So I decided to do some meta-game digging on Khel to get a better feel for him. After reading his three completed games I started to re-read his posts in this game and nearly choked on my drink and spit it over the keyboard when I read THIS gem as Khel's second post in the game:

Vote: CoolBot

You are trying to WIFOM the doc into not touching a vig or cop, and thus giving scum a 100% chance. Nice try. I suggest the doc stay with vig/cop, and 50/50 with scum. Any suggestion to the contrary is just crazy talk.

I don't think I even have to explain the hypocrisy of that statement compared to what he is saying now.

[Kinetic]

That was from this game Gorrad.

[Kinetic]

So I decided to do some meta-game digging on Khel to get a better feel for him. After reading his three completed games I started to re-read his posts in this game and nearly choked on my drink and spit it over the keyboard when I read THIS gem as Khel's second post in the game:

Vote: CoolBot

You are trying to WIFOM the doc into not touching a vig or cop, and thus giving scum a 100% chance. Nice try. I suggest the doc stay with vig/cop, and 50/50 with scum. Any suggestion to the contrary is just crazy talk.

I don't think I even have to explain the hypocrisy of that statement compared to what he is saying now.

That was such a scummy argument, Kinetic. You obfuscated a key fact to reach a totally wrong conclusion. What you say is only true if I hadn't claimed. Look at this:

If were the doc, then it would make sense for me to make this gambit, since the scum would think I was town and the doc was protecting me and thus go for the cop. Of course, since I just said this, the scum might realize I am the doc and go after me. Of course, knowing they might act this way, I might actually be townie with the doc ready to protect me tonight. Since he will protect me, the scum, naturally, will go after the cop. Knowing they would do this, however, I claimed to be drawing the doc protect away, when in reality I was protecting the cop. Knowing that I would do all this and everything would be too confusing, the scum will go after the vig instead. With my reasoning, however, I know this so I will protect the vig, or the real doc will protect the vig. With this knowledge, the scum will hit me and possibly get a doc. Knowing this, the real doc protect me.......

What this boils down to is that I'm WIFOMing the scum. Kinetic, you made a completely wrong argument. I said that to make me appear less doc, so that my logic-breadcrumb could take full effect and just about 50/50 the scum's opinion of me being doc and me not being doc.

First off, I didn't make any argument in that post Khel. The only argument in that post is the one YOU made earlier in the game. So if there is something unclear, or obfuscated, then the fault is not mine.

And you are actually strawmaning me here, quite blatantly. You see, the point I was trying to make with that post is this:

If you are not the doc, and are a townie like you "claim" (I'm putting it in quotes because you've officially claimed 12 or so different roles by now), then the doc protecting you BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION is the wrong move.

How is it scummy pointing out your scum moves? Khel, stop just throwing words out there that you don't understand and are using incorrectly. The only person talking in WIFOM is you. Just because you MAKE the WIFOM argument doesn't mean its that complicated. And it also doesn't mean we have to follow your logic just because you say we have to.

Sometimes its just a choice, the red pill or the blue pill. Go down the Rabbit hole, or wake up as if nothing happened.

There is no WIFOM in my statement, and all you are doing is confusing the TOWN and not the scum at this point.

Drop the BS.

[Kinetic]

MOS:

Statistically it'll happen more often for town than scum because there are more town than scum per game, so on a purely random basis, yes, more town replace than scum...

[Kinetic]

Vote:Scotmany12

[Kinetic]

No, we should vig the person Kinetic pardons. Otherwise, we are throwing away this lynch for no good purpose. We need to see how people react under pressure to better guide us later.

Wasn't I being attacked for saying just this?

No, you were all for lynching Guardian, then vigging him, even though if I pardoned him, like MOS said, you have no reason to suspect him.

I'm

this

close to policy lynching Khel, no matter what his alignment at this point. If he stays around ALL he will be is a detriment.

[Kinetic]

I understand that Yos. However that is the crutch of Khels case to push Guardian's lynch today, right now. I freely admit there are other reasons one could find Guardian scummy, but none of them would cause an overriding sensation to force his lynch today except for the one stated, the one Khel puts so much weight on.

The problem is, we can prove that no such link exists without lynching/vigging Guardian or myself. It is anti-town to use this supposed link to lynch someone when it can be proven to not exist in a much simpler way.

[Kinetic]

I'm going to wait on a vote count and then prob. vote Khel.

He

still

is not hearing me when I say this, so I'll say it again. Scum claiming Governor is a dumb move. Guardian knows this. Guardian also has played with me in a few games, both when I have been scum and town.

Visa vi, if Guardian feels that I am 80% conformable by an uncontested, yet still very weak claim if I am mafia, and 20% conformable based on how I have been playing, that is how he feels.

Overall, it is also my own PERSONAL opinion that the governor ability shouldn't be used. I am going to use it to prove myself, but I still don't think its a good idea to use it.

[Kinetic]

FINALLY someone is talking sense. Thank you MOS.

Vote:Yos

[Kinetic]

Khel: No one, not I, not Guardian, has said if I am town then Guardian is town. That is a lie. On top of all the other shit you've pulled today, this isn't even surprising, but I thought I'd point it out.

What has been said is that the main argument against Guardian is that he has been linked to me. If I turn out scum, this heavily favors Guardian as scum. THIS IS YOUR ORIGINAL AND MAIN CASE. This is the crux of all cases to lynch Guardian today as opposed to someone who looks more scummy.

However, if I turn out town, this has NO EFFECT on Guardian's alignment. All it does is removes the argument over his likelihood to be scum in connection with me. It does not confirm him town or eliminate any chance for him to be scum.

[Kinetic]

Khel: No one, not I, not Guardian, has said if I am town then Guardian is town. That is a lie. On top of all the other shit you've pulled today, this isn't even surprising, but I thought I'd point it out.

I phrased that rather strongly. I meant that people were saying that there was a good chance Guardian was town if you were town.

No they aren't. What they are saying is that the case for him being scum is less strong without that information. Less likely to be scum does not mean more likely to be town. I know that may sound like a contradiction, but look at it this way. Assume there is a line. There are three marks on this line. The mark on the far left is the "Town" point, the mark in the middle is the "Unknown" mark, and the mark on the right is the "scum" mark.

All that happens when I am proven innocent is Guardian's personal mark moves farther from the scum mark and toward the unknown mark. No matter what happens though, this mark won't pass the unknown mark and tend toward town based SOLELY on my alignment.

However, if I turn out town, this has NO EFFECT on Guardian's alignment. All it does is removes the argument over his likelihood to be scum in connection with me. It does not confirm him town or eliminate any chance for him to be scum.

Well, here is where you are wrong. His chance of being scum will still be higher than anyone elses' IMO even if you are innocent.

Ah. Finally some truth. In your opinion. The thing is Khel, that your opinion is not worth anything. Bring facts to back up your feelings and maybe something will happen, but all you've brought so far is weak WIFOM and null arguments that only mean anything if looked at with only one perspective. Learn to think of EVERY possibility for an action, and then eliminate those possibilities as they become impossible. Work outward in, instead of inward out.

Plus, at this point I'm willing to give Guardian the benefit of the doubt. In my opinion he is acting townie, and I currently do think that his mass claim idea (if it was done correctly and not with you and IH screwing it up) would have been good for the town. There are bigger fish I want to fry to see what their alignments are and work from there first. Guardian is on my list, don't get me wrong, but I don't feel like he is the play for today at all.

[Kinetic]

Guardian were we reading the same post, because that seemed like the exact opposite of what Khel is doing now, or this entire game...

...

OOOOO you were being sarcastic. Man you're so good at that, I almost didn't notice. That was amazing.