NY 188: Delicious Mafia II (Post-game chatter)

[Skybird]

Hi everyone! Really looking forward to this one. I know a lot of the player list too. Yea!

VOTE: TSO just because he was below me on the player list.

[Skybird]

Lapsa, if Wolfie is confscum why vote someone else?

Hi Wolfie!

[Skybird]

VOTE: RedFF

Speedlynching in a Large Normal is effective and optimal for town

Ewww. Care to explain this?

UNVOTE: boon
VOTE: redff
Why not

FoS GrayFox for jumping on the easy wagon.

[Skybird]

Wolfie is very confident and competent as Town, and doesn't really get annoyed or upset.

She's vulnerable to the latter two when Scum. I want to know why ika thinks she's the same regardless of alignment.

Bullshit, You said this same crap last time you were scum in a game. I get frustrated as town all the time including offsite games that you modded.

You know better.

FoS Wake for your selective memory.

Anything else you want to talk to me about?

I agree you get frustrated as town, but you usually don't get frustrated this quickly. Your reaction seems closer to you scum game than your town game.

[Skybird]

like i said hes scum sky.

i mean come on do you not read my posts

Right now you are voting Wake and the vote I was talking about in the post immediately proceeding yours was Sal's vote for RedFF and comment about speed lynching being optimal in large normals. You said you were fine with this turbo lynch as long as we lynch Wolfie or Wake next. But I don't see where you called RedFF scum plus you aren't voting for him. Who exactly are you referring to as scum in your post?

[Skybird]

Aero, can we get a vc please?

[Skybird]

Also, Red is town. Like, I'm basically going to confirm him as town for myself due to the fact that Nam replaced because I was in this game. He's never played with me before, so if he was scum, he would have thought I was an easy mislynch. I don't see that slot having a chance at being scum.

Boon, Aero said he was only kiddingabout Nam replacing out because of you. So that's not a reason to town read that slot.

p-edit: I see others have already pointed this out.

[Skybird]

Sala, why are you so intent on getting a quick lynch? It feels like you can't wait for night to start so you can kill someone.

[Skybird]

I know people want to end this day quickly, but we still have 2 slots that haven't posted yet. (Aero mentioned that in one of his posts.) I'd really like to see every slot post some stuff before we end this day.

Ika, why is wake scum?

[Skybird]

wake is follwoing his scum meta.

Let's put some pressure on him then and see what happens.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Wake

[Skybird]

Sal, so convince us that Red is scum or someone else instead of bitching about the number of pages.

[Skybird]

FoS Annadog. Her posts are mostly fluff and I don't see what her thought process is for voting the people she is voting. She claimed Wolfie was obvscum after reading her ISO. It feels like she is randomly voting for people to look like she is scum hunting.

[Skybird]

wake is follwoing his scum meta.

Let's put some pressure on him then and see what happens.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Wake

What are YOUR reasons for thinking Wake is scum?

It's been a while since I played with Wake. I voted him because I want to put some pressure on him and see what happens. (You know, what I stated in the post you quoted.) You seem more defensive (angry?) than normal Wolfie. What gives?

[Skybird]

Aero, I'll help fill up the food queue: Lasagna, chocolate cake, steak

[Skybird]

Sorry in advance everyone for the quote wall.

wake is follwoing his scum meta.

Let's put some pressure on him then and see what happens.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Wake

What are YOUR reasons for thinking Wake is scum?

It's been a while since I played with Wake. I voted him because I want to put some pressure on him and see what happens. (You know, what I stated in the post you quoted.) You seem more defensive (angry?) than normal Wolfie. What gives?

Besides that one post where I was pissed at crappy scumreads thrown at me for no reason and where people who have played with me many times are lying about my meta, tell me again where I've been defensive and angry?

I want to know what you think about things. You asked ika what he thought about Wake and then sheeped his reasoning for voting him. I find that scummy. I also find it scummy when people deflect back onto me when I question them.

I really don't feel like obvtowning myself this game or explaining why I no longer think Wake is scum. Now, you do something to show me you are town instead of sheeping other people's reads and misreading me.

In post 139 you sounded angry. Post 143 sounded angry/frustrated. Post 154 sounded angry. Post 169 (reposted in 172) sounded angry. You may think you were calm in in most of these posts, but the way I read it, it came across as you were angry.

Yeah I did because pisskop was lying about my meta and being a rude obnoxious jerk to me to try to push me into an emotional state. It's not an alignment tell for me to be bitchy in games.

Skybird has misrepped me twice already when she should know better and I consider that a slight scumtell coming from her.

I agree you get frustrated as town, but you usually don't get frustrated this quickly. Your reaction seems closer to you scum game than your town game.

It's been a while since I played with Wake. I voted him because I want to put some pressure on him and see what happens. (You know, what I stated in the post you quoted.) You seem more defensive (angry?) than normal Wolfie. What gives?

First post is her saying me getting frustrated quickly in a game is closer to my scum game. That's a lie. In 185 I was pretty calm and easygoing much of the game until the end. She was a player in that game and has played in many a town game with me when I've gotten frustrated. That's a deliberate misrep and I want her to explain it.

The second one is her sheeping others reasoning for a vote, and deflecting back onto me when I question her and trying to put me on the defensive which is scumplay 101 and not the town Skybird I know.

I don't have a perfect memory. I was out of that game in mid-June and NY 185 was 3 or 4 games ago for me. I do know you get bitchy/upset/angry in every game you play. I scum read you when you get mad for no good reason. I understand being upset over being mis-read. I get mis-read quite a bit. Hell the whole time in Smite, Drixx called for my lynch for 5 long months. And yeah, I got mad and defensive about it. I just don't understand why it makes you so mad so quickly.

The town skybird you knew got scum-read from the start of the game in every game she played. I've been working on my play style and to you it now reads scummy because it isn't what you expect. Too bad, because I am town here and will flip town if you decide to try and push a mislynch.

For the third time, I want Wake's reaction to multiple votes. Of course I might as well unvote now because trying to explain that I want to see a reaction means I'm not going to get a natural reaction from him. So thanks for screwing that up. And don't you dare come back and say that is a mis-rep. You are a better player than that. You know damn well people put votes on other people to see what happens. As for the sheeping, I don't feel it was a sheep because I did have a reason. YMMV

[Skybird]

Yeah, well I invite anyone to actually meta me and figure it out for themselves.

I have quite a few town and scum games here now.

And BTW, I am perfectly capable of changing my meta. I did it in 180 quite convincingly. Like I said, I'm not interested in obvtowning myself this game.

It's too much work and I've found a waste of time since I've been losing a lot of my town games lately.

Why invite people to meta you when you turn around and say you are quite capable of changing your meta?

[Skybird]

LOL at Skybird calling me angry and defensive over nothing and then getting angry and defensive at me over nothing.

That's pretty good. I needed the laugh.

Guess what, my friend, I'm town here as well and I never like it when people are calling me scum for no reason or crappy reasons.

Do you think me being angry and defensive is scummy? Is it scummy when you do it?

Cuz right now, you are most definitely doing it. I guess you know how I've been feeling so far and guess what? You only have one person calling you scum.

And LOL at getting mad at me for asking you why you are voting for someone. Sorry, but that's how the game works. You know that as well as I do.

So is frustration/anger, being defensive a scumtell or not?

Also, I damn well will be more than happy to say you are misrepping me if you are.

See, this is the thing about written communication. I feel you were defensive and angry in the posts I quoted and you claim you were not. I didn't feel I was defensive and angry in my posts back to you but you are claiming I am. I even wrote and re-wrote that post about 3 times trying to make sure it wasn't coming out defensively. *shrug*

Is anger a scumtell for you or not? Since you stated you are quite capable of changing your meta it remains to be seen if it is a scum-tell for you. And for that you remain a FoS for me.

[Skybird]

Oh and Skbird-You can't get mad at me for so called ruining your reaction test to Wake because you basically told him you were doing that when you made your vote. So that's on you, not me.

And if I told you I had reasons but didn't want to say you would have done what, exactly?

[Skybird]

Guys we were getting close to achieving a lynch, and now we're seperated. Ika, why do you think wake is scum? Any examples?

Since the day has really just started, any reason you are concerned about Redff's wagon coming apart?

[Skybird]

Also
UNVOTE: Wake

[Skybird]

I don't know what to think of SW's replace request. I know she was really looking forward to this game so I don't know why she would replace out this quickly.

[Skybird]

I have Ika as town. He seriously lurks as scum and usually only posts when absolutely necessary, like when prodded or to avoid a prod. He has posted quite a bit here even if several people don't like what he's posting. I feel Wake has played enough with Ika to know this and is being disingenuous by jumping on Ika with everyone right now.

I am scum reading the SW slot. If you look back in the thread, 2 different people have linked games where she replaced out as scum. It hasn't happened just once. She was also arguing that we should be reading her as town due to her meta at the same time claiming she could change her meta at will. I'd like to see what the replacement does before I make a decision one way or the other.

Shinobi is town. He is asking questions and probing to look for responses in a way that says town to me.

I'm going back and forth on Salamence. I didn't like the push for a quick lynch. I understand not wanting useless pages to read though but there is no reason to cut off the natural flow of conversation. His posting has been better lately which is why I am not leaning scum on him right now.

Annadog reads scum to me. She has been posting mostly fluff. I pointed this out in an earlier post. She does think SW is scum which would normally make me think town, but she could be bussing and I think that is unlikely. So I'm wrong on one of them but I need to see more from Anna and the SW slot to figure it out.

[Skybird]

I feel Wake has played enough with Ika to know this and is being disingenuous by jumping on Ika with everyone right now.

Wait a minute.

What exactly constitutes 'jumping on' to you?

Did you read my exchange with ika at all?

Because it feels like you didn't, and missed some things.

This comes from post 494 and 495. I did read your exchange. Ika is being cheeky and you didn't like it.

For several people, amounts of posts are not alignment-indicative. But with Ika it generally is. I do agree that the content of his posts could be better but for now I see town Ika.

You obviously disagree on my Shinobi read. What are you seeing?

[Skybird]

Welcome back SW. I for one didn't want you to replace out.

I have to call things as I see them. You will obviously do the same. I am town though.

Why is TSO scum?

[Skybird]

-snip-
T S O is scum and Skybird is likely scum. I do not replace out as scum. They are making it sound like that's a tactic with me when I have a town games I've replaced out of as well, one of which T S O was in and for some reason decided not to mention.

If you read that Sweet Dreams game you will see that I had other issues going on that I talked to the mod privately about and he was the one who reached out to me and asked if I needed to replace. I discussed my reasons post game. The game T S O linked was a Team Mafia game and him trying to say that's my scum meta when he played with me in both 180 and 185 where he's seen a ton of my scum meta and using the team mafia game to say I was caught was a joke. And yeah I was scum but I literally had 2 fucking posts in that game and yes, I replaced. Aero, T S O, and cabd were in the team mafia PT with me, which unfortunately never got released and I no longer have access to but they know my reasons for replacing there. I was not going to be able to put the time and energy into that game and I was trying to avoid hurting my team mafia team and the scum team. I also V/LA'd in my two other games one of which was a town game and one of which was a scum game.

-snip-

I am really irritated that Skybird is trying to insinuate I replace out as scum like that's some sort of tactic of mine.

Wolfie, I haven't done any meta diving on you in a long time. 2 different games were linked where you had a scum role and you replaced out. I verified that those facts were true by seeing that you replaced. I didn't read either game because I saw no need to. Now that you have pointed out a few additional things related to those games I feel the replacing out is more null than a scum tell.

I am really irritated that T S O is completely misrepping my scum meta and my replace out in Team Mafia. His whole attitude this game reeks of his scum game of which I've seen twice now.

Mahonster is correct that I was trying something new this game. Yes Skybird, I can change my meta but meta is being used to scumread me this game so I'm sure as hell going to use it to defend myself.

What specifically about his attitude reeks of scum? I haven't played with scum TSO. (At least not that I can remember.) I will agree he is acting more forcefully in this game than he normally does and seems more engaged. Is that what you are talking about?

I stand by my point that you are saying contradictory things about meta. I personally try not to rely on meta so much when I read people because it is easy to manipulate. YMMV

When I say I don't want to obvtown myself like I have in other games, why do you think that is?

When I say Wake isn't scum due to interactions with me, did anyone check our interactions? No, ika just assumed I was incompetent as scum and that Wake and I were scum together and that I'd be stupid enough to jump on people when he had only two votes and others had a lot more and paint all kinds of associatives because apparently I'm super naive and don't know that would be ridiculously stupid play if we were scum together. And ika drawing associatives right now is super bad

Shinobi is town. I feel pretty good about that. Wake is town. I feel pretty good about that. I think Texcat is town but it's a weaker read. greayfoxx and T S O are scum and I have a weaker scum read on Skybird

VOTE: T S O

Yes I did check Wake's ISO. I felt it best not to draw attention to it any further than that.

Message received on your whole obvtown stuff.

Oh, here is the town game I replaced out of that T S O was in: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=60825

-snip-

There was nothing in this post about why TSO is scum.

Oh and T S O saying Red is town because I was pushing him and Skybird saying Annadog is bussing me because he RVS said I was scum is both laughable and really super bad. Both of them are better players than this which is another reason I think they are likely scum.
-snip-

I'm going to go ahead and out something now. Anna and I are in a neighborhood together. In the neighborhood Anna is saying she wants to lynch you. That's in post 6 so after the game you will see the proof of that statement. I suspect there are other neighborhoods. Her behavior there is also part of my scum read on her.

Is it a fair statement to say that when someone scum reads a person, that anyone the scum read is pushing is likely to be read as town by the first person, especially this early in the game?

-snip- And one of the things I would most definitely do as scum, is selectively point out the things about me that T S O did here to paint me as scum. Now, town can do that too but it just feels like a scum push from T S O. I'd be interested to hear his response to all of this now.

Fair point on TSO.

[Skybird]

Your Mileage May Vary

[Skybird]

SW - I'll remind you if you forget.

I'm going to go ahead and out something now. Anna and I are in a neighborhood together. In the neighborhood Anna is saying she wants to lynch you. That's in post 6 so after the game you will see the proof of that statement. I suspect there are other neighborhoods. Her behavior there is also part of my scum read on her.

Not cool, I'm acting the same way there as I am here.

Are you denying you stated in the neighborhood that you wanted to lynch Wolfie? Your behavior in the game thread and in the neighborhood is fluff posting and not scum hunting. You ask inconsequential questions and make ridiculous responses in your posts.

[Skybird]

Anna-why did you tell Skybird you wanted to lynch me?

Cause I said it in thread. That was before I knew you were a real player. Your like a unicorn or a dragon.

Seriously? You didn't even look at the player list when the game started?

[Skybird]

Skybird

———

Between SIlverwolf and Annadog40 who'd you vote for and why?

Until I see something resembling her actually playing the game, I'd vote Anna. I have great respect for SW's play as both town and scum. I can't always tell the difference between town and scum games. If she is town, it is definitely worthwhile keeping her in the game.

[Skybird]

Until I see something resembling her actually playing the game, I'd vote Anna. I have great respect for SW's play as both town and scum. I can't always tell the difference between

her

town and scum games. If SW is town, it is definitely worthwhile keeping her in the game.

FTFMe.

[Skybird]

Welcome Frogger! You'd better be town here!

[Skybird]

Things I don't understand:


4.

Skybird

, can you shed any light on Anna's thinking that Wolfie was not a real player? I didn't understand her sheeping of Lapsa and the doc claim from someone, I'm not even sure whom. When she said in the hood that she wanted to lynch Wolfie, was that before or after it was pointed out that Wolfie was a real player? Her sheep of Ika with the picture of the sheep was sort of funny, but I'm not sure it was very townie.

I really can't shed any light on this because it was really weird to me. I felt she was voting SW for real and I totally missed she thought SW was a fake player until she mentioned it. I did go look at some of her other games to try and get a better read on her. I looked at a newbie game she was in (1612 take 2) and one that is on-going so I can't say anything about that one. But in the newbie game she posted in a much more normal fashion, though was still a little off-beat. She was town in that one.

[Skybird]

Wolfie, we actually haven't posted that much in the 'hood. I told her in there I thought she was scum so that kinda stopped the flow of conversation. lol I haven't posted much because if she is scum, I don't want to give away anything that she could take back to her scummates.

[Skybird]

Anna, I've played multiple games with 'hoods in them. They almost always come out the first day. I'm pretty surprised that no one else has admitted to being in a hood.

[Skybird]

@annadog question for u since skybird is reading u scum,

Their reading me null not scum.

nope according to skybirds iso he's reading u scum, now answer the question

I have been telling Anna in the hood that her posting was starting to get better and it looked like she was actually starting to engage in the game so I moved her up to a null read.

[Skybird]

@Skybird what are some examples of Annadog's posting getting better?

Post 696 and 718 both look like she is more engaged in the game and taking it seriously. And when I say seriously, I don't mean that people playing these games can't crack jokes and have fun with the game. But when all the posts are fluff and jokes like her posts were at the beginning of the game, that reads to me as someone who doesn't care about the game.

[Skybird]

Yeah, if someone else votes Grayfoxxxx, keep in mind that would put him to L-2 and ika and boon can finish him off. Make sure you are ready for the day to end if you decide to vote him.

Yeah, if someone else votes Grayfoxxxx, keep in mind that would put him to L-1 and ika can finish him off. Make sure you are ready for the day to end if you decide to vote him.

VOTE: Grayfoxxxx

What's the reasoning behind this post Lapsa?

[Skybird]

GrayFoxxxx, you say you are scum hunting. So do you have a reads list you can give with reasons on why you are reading the player that way? I ask because when I read your ISO I don't see a lot of what I think is scum hunting.

p-edit: Salamence, that last line in 878 was uncalled for.

[Skybird]

Spiffeh, let me play devil's advocate for just a moment. If Anna was scum, why would she post so strangely? I don't see the scum motivation to drawing that much negative attention to oneself. On the other hand, is there town motivation behind doing that either.

[Skybird]

Kop, that is a fair interpretation of the question. However, I was asking Spiffeh. Why did you jump in on my question to him?

[Skybird]

Spiffeh, let me play devil's advocate for just a moment. If Anna was scum, why would she post so strangely? I don't see the scum motivation to drawing that much negative attention to oneself. On the other hand, is there town motivation behind doing that either.

Why would Grayfox so blatantly not be playing his town meta if he was scum?
"Why would this person act so scummy if they were scum?"

Anything can be boiled down to a WIFOM argument which is why they hold no weight. Is this really your basis for not scumreading Annadog?

Anna is still null to me. I'm talking with her in the hood in hopes to get a better handle on whether she is scum or town. I asked you this question because I am trying to determine if you really felt she was scum or if you were hopping on a convenient wagon.

[Skybird]

Kop, are you and Spiffeh scum buddies? You seem intent on derailing the conversation I'm trying to have with Spiffeh.

[Skybird]

Anna is still null to me. I'm talking with her in the hood in hopes to get a better handle on whether she is scum or town. I asked you this question because I am trying to determine if you really felt she was scum or if you were hopping on a convenient wagon.

What have you determined? Like Kop said (why do you keep speaking for me?) I was pretty much the first one to point Anna out so there wasn't really a wagon to jump on.

Not totally true. I pointed out in 282 that I had suspicions about Anna. I later mentioned scum reading Anna in 508, and outed our neighborhood in post 535. In your ISO your first mention of Anna is when you vote her in post 657.

[Skybird]

I've read through Ozgin's ISO and Wolf's ISO for reasons why he is scum. I was in 185 with town Ozgin and his posting here is not the same. He doesn't have the same level of engagedness (if that's a word).

I'm good with an Ozgin lynch. I'm also good with an Anna lynch.

VOTE: Ozgin

[Skybird]

Wolfie, what do you think about an Anna lynch?

[Skybird]

I see her as weird but not scummy. I have her as null. Do you see something in the hood I'm missing?

I've been asking her questions in the hood trying to figure out if she is scum or town. So far she is basically dodging all my questions. Frogger can verify that this is true.

[Skybird]

Spiffeh, Anna is very unhappy with me that I outed our hood. But since she was acting in the hood the same way she was acting in the main thread and she said she wanted to lynch Wolfie I felt that needed to be pointed out. I disagree with the notion that hoods should remain secret. While the thread was locked I asked her some questions to try and determine if she was town or scum. Basically she refused to answer any questions. She also told me she didn't want to say anything because I would tell it to the main thread. But as part of my read on her reverting to scum is because of her play there. So how can I fully explain myself with out saying something about the hood?

[Skybird]

Anna, I was scum reading you at the time and I am still scum reading you. I don't consider bringing evidence against a scum read as going behind someone's back.

[Skybird]

UNVOTE: Ozgin

At this point I am willing to lynch Grayfoxxxx or Annadog today.

I would really like to see Anna engage and put up some content soon. Maybe a vote will encourage her.

VOTE: Anna

[Skybird]

Items for the food queue: ice cream sundae, vegetarian dish, roast turkey

[Skybird]

shoot.

@mod - items for food queue in 1326

[Skybird]

That's a good point Wolfie, the people yelling that Red was at l-1 when he wasn't even close. I think that whole sequence deserves a closer look. Off to look.

[Skybird]

@Annadog What was your response?

I'll even give you the question!

Skybird wrote:
But why wait until night to put your thoughts on who's scum in here?

So you don't bring it back to the main thread right away. Since this neighborhood has a habit of doing that.

Habit? I'm scum reading you dearie. If talking about the stuff in the hood helps get you lynched then yeah, I'm going to let people know. If you had ever stated something like please keep this in the hood I would have respected your wishes. You never did anything like that.

[Skybird]

UNVOTE:

OK, Anna and I have come to more of an understanding in the neighborhood. I don't think she is a good lynch candidate for today. What she told me did explain why she was acting the way she was.

[Skybird]

Ozgin, you are not stupid. Day 1 is hard. (At least in my opinion!)

[Skybird]

Lapsa, any reason for that vote?

[Skybird]

OK, so I went looking for the reasons that the Red wagon dissolved the first time. I went through the pages where the wagon started, built up, and stopped when the wagon was down to 3 votes and no mention of Red happened on the next few pages. So I started on page 3 and went through page 21 compiling info. I'm going to spoil that info and just talk about what I see.

Spoiler: RedFF's First Wagon

RedFF’s 1st wagon
NEED 11 VOTES DAY 1 FOR A LYNCH

Red replaces in on page 3. On page 4 he quotes Lapsa’s post and says it feels forced and votes him. The link to where he adapted it from is on page 2 and other people had already discussed this post. Once it is pointed out, he unvotes (all on page 4).

First serious vote on Red comes from Shinobi in post 83. (Explained in post 89 as trying to look like he was doing something without actually doing anything.) Wolfie votes him in 86 for his post where he unvotes Lapsa and explains Red let go of his scum read too quickly. Quar votes Red in post 93, agrees that Red looks like he is trying to do something without doing it and agrees with Wolfie’s reason. Sal comes in and votes Red in post 98 and states speedlynching is effective and optimal in a Large Normal. Nos agrees it seems legit.

VC on Red for page 4
RedFF (4) – Shinobi, Silverwolf, Quaroath, Salamence

PAGE 5
Creede73 votes RedFF in post 101. This is a naked vote. Creede’s vote on Red is the only one on page 5.

VC on Red at end of page 5
RedFF (5) – Shinobi, Silverwolf, Quaroath, Salamence, Creede73

PAGE 6
GrayFoxxx votes Red in post 136 and for a reason says “why not”. GrayFox’s vote for Red is the only one on page 6.

VC on Red at end of page 6
RedFF (6) – Shinobi, Silverwolf, Quaroath, Salamence, Creede73, GrayFoxxx

PAGE 7
No votes for Red on page 7.

PAGE 8
Salamence states in post 184 that we need 3 more Red votes before Ika or Boon hammers. So someone was keeping track of where we were and knew Red was not at L-1 at this time.
Red comments on his wagon on this page (post 186). Votes for Silverwolf.
No votes on Red on page 8.

PAGE 9
Creede unvotes Red in post 209 and states she doesn’t really suspect Red of anything. This is after Red and Salamence talk with her a little bit.
This is the only vote action on Red on page 9.

VC on Red at end of page 9
RedFF (5) – Shinobi, Silverwolf, Quaroath, Salamence, GrayFoxxx

PAGE 10
No vote action on Red. Still at 5 votes.

PAGE 11
Nosferatu votes for Red in post 254. His vote comes after discussion with Wolfie.
Mahonster votes for Red in post 255. No reason other than up for a red flip.
Shinobi questions the number of votes on Red in post 256. Evidently does a quick count because in post 257 stated nevermind Red was not lynched yet.
Salamence states in post 258 that Red is L-1 and wants Ika to do his thing. His post came approximately 2 minutes after post 257.
Shinobi unvotes in post 263. States he isn’t done with the day phase yet and wants to give Red a chance to claim.
Lapsa (who was never on the Red wagon) unvotes in the next post. This was a naked unvote and just felt weird like maybe he thought he was on the Red wagon.

VC on Red at end of page 11
RedFF (6) – Silverwolf, Quaroath, Salamence, GrayFoxxx, Nosferatu, Mahonster

PAGE 12
Wolfie points out in post 294 that Red’s wagon was never close to L-1.

No vote change on Red on this page.

PAGE 13
No vote change on Red.

PAGE 14
GrayFox unvotes Red and votes Texcat in 345

VC on Red at end of page 14
RedFF (5) – Silverwolf, Quaroath, Salamence, Nosferatu, Mahonster

PAGE 15
Quaroath votes Grayfoxx in post 364.
Nosferatu unvotes in post 365.

VC on Red at end of page 15
RedFF (3) – Silverwolf, Salamence, Mahonster

No activity on Red for the next few pages so page 15 is the end of analysis for the 1st Red wagon.

Red replaced in on page 3 and quickly voted Lapsa because the alligator post looked forced. After it was pointed out that Lapsa had basically quoted a Wake post from a different game, he unvoted. On page 4 Shinobi felt he was trying to look like he was doing something and voted Red. Wolfie voted Red for letting go of his scum read too quickly. Quaroath came in and agreed with Shinobi's and Wolfie's reasoning. Salamence votes Red and starts talking about speedlynching being efficient and optimal. That's 4 votes for Red at the end of page 1.

On page 5 Creede makes a naked vote for Red and on page 6 Grayfoxxx votes Red and states "why not". That brings Red up to 6 votes. (L-5)

Salamence mentions on page 8 that only 3 more votes are needed before Ika or Boon can hammer. (Which was wrong because it takes 11 to lynch.)

On page 9 Creede unvotes after being questioned a bit by Shinobi and Salamence. She states she didn't really suspect Red of anything. This looks suspicious as the pressure she was getting was minimal and why jump on a wagon if you don't suspect someone? Creede may be scum and needs to be looked at more. 5 votes on Red. (L-6)

Page 11 is where the voting/unvoting flurry happens. Page 10 had a discussion between Wolfie and Nosferatu about Red. Towards the top of page 11 Nos votes Red. Mahonster votes Red in the very next post with no good reason. (I don't remember anyone ever pushing him on this unless they did it after page 21.) Shinobi questioned the number of votes. Did a check and in the next post stated that Red was not lynched yet. Salamence immediately calls Red at L-1 and wants Ika to do his thing. Shinobi unvotes because he wasn't ready for day to end. Red is still at 6 votes at the end of page 11. Since Shinobi looked at the votes and vote count and knew that Red wasn't about to be lynched, why did he unvote really?

From there, the wagon slowly loses a few votes over the next 4 pages until by page 15 only three people are voting Red: Silverwolf, Salamence, and Mahonster. 2 of the people on the wagon (Grayfoxxx and Quaroath) voted for different people. Nosferatu unvoted on page 15.

In reading though it all again I don't see where anyone specifically was pushing against the Red wagon. The people I want to look at more are the ones that hopped on and off the wagon without saying why or did so with very little reasoning (Creede, Grayfoxxx and Nosferatu)

[Skybird]

Frog, so town lapsa is always like this?

[Skybird]

Grayfoxx, why do you think not explaining a vote is good? (re: Lapsa's response to me)

[Skybird]

I'm sorry I can't be more specific about not wanting to vote Anna, but I do think she is town right now and would be a bad D1 lynch. After tonight we should have more information and will be able to see if that was the correct play.

Grayfoxx isn't doing anything other defending himself really hard. I do understand not wanting to be the first day lynch. I am willing to vote Gray. I'll hold off to keep him from getting too close to L-1 for the moment.

@Grayfoxx, do you see that as VT you really are a better lynch than a power role? You keep claiming that everyone's reason is BS. Have you even read them? To me that just seems like you are flailing.

[Skybird]

Gray, your post 1492 is an example of you flailing. You pounce on the next biggest wagon and argue for it. Are you scum reading Anna? If so, let's hear your reasons.

[Skybird]

Skybird who other than Gray do you think is scum?

I think Salamence needs a closer look. All I really remember about his play so far is wanting to speedlynch someone and bitching when we didn't do it. He may have done more but I haven't ISO'd him yet.

Creede is another player that hasn't added much to the game and has seemed to either be lost or not paying attention. Her second post in the game was about not knowing anyone so she could form solid reads. 168 She posted about Salamence and thought he might be scum. 196 200 Salamence challenges her read and she immediately backs down. 207 She also backed off the RedFF wagon without much pushing against her. Bottom line, she doesn't seem to want to hold a strong opinion on anyone and doesn't want to rock the boat. Usually only scum are this careful.

I do feel SW, Frogger, and you are town. I wouldn't want to lynch anyone there.

[Skybird]

I'm going to go ahead and out something now. Anna and I are in a neighborhood together. In the neighborhood Anna is saying she wants to lynch you. That's in post 6 so after the game you will see the proof of that statement. I suspect there are other neighborhoods. Her behavior there is also part of my scum read on her.

Not cool, I'm acting the same way there as I am here.

This post started it my real suspicion of anna.

Anna pushes Wolfie hard for no reason early game, and then calls wolf town later, also with no reason. Why suddenly town? Annas whole response to the problems in the neighborhood is lacking.

That's just if your read a few posts. The rest of them are questions anna never followed up on. It's like she didn't care about the answer in the first place.

I have to do some things, and I'm posting from mobile, but I will be at a PC tonight and will be able to construct better replies.

Anna thought that "Wolfie" was not a player in the game. She did not make the connection between Silverwolf and Wolfie.

In an earlier post you you complain that I am wanting to do something to see if I am right with regards to Anna. 1492 I am not completely sold on her being town. However, with some of the things she pointed out about the game in the hood, I would like to hold off lynching her. If you feel she is the most scummy and needs to be lynched, do what you have to do. She is a big girl and can defend herself.

[Skybird]

I'm really unhappy with the way this game is going already.

I'm reading through but wanted to quote this as it mirrors my entire thoughts on the game.

So what would you change? How do you want this game to go?

[Skybird]

Welcome GM and Firebringer!

Wake, you seem to be purposefully antagonistic this game. I don't understand what you are trying to do.

I stated earlier that I was willing to vote Grayfox but at the time he was getting close to lynch. I see from the latest VC that is no longer the case.

VOTE: Grayfox

[Skybird]

Spiffeh, could you point to your posts where you made a case on Kop? (Sorry, chasing stuff on boon right now and I don't want to forget about this)

[Skybird]

I agree he is lurking in this game. Also, he's not paying attention. Remember the joke Aero made about Nanette replacing out? Aero clarified that he was making a joke about 3 times before Boon finally got it. I'm not sure if that is alignment indicative though.

@Frogger, got any idea if inattention is scum or town meta for Boon?

[Skybird]

Thanks Spiffeh. I appreciate it.

[Skybird]

Spiffeh, what do you think about Boon town-reading RedFF after Aero's joke about why Nanette replaced out? (posts 188, 190) After he finally realizes Aero was joking, I don't believe he mentioned Red again.

Also, this post 192 looks like he is trying to give himself a reason not to be making scum reads.

[Skybird]

I don't like Firebringer getting the name of his role incorrect, if he really did. Also, killing Wake was going to automatically throw suspicion on TSO because of their interaction D1. We don't need to turbolynch TSO until everyone has a chance to report things they saw in D1 that might have information on why these 3 were killed.

[Skybird]

I think I should be saying that to you.

[Skybird]

Yep, I also confirm Wolfie was there for a visit.

I agree with Anna. If we lynch TSO and he flips town, Firebringer gets turbolynched tomorrow.

[Skybird]

Red, when did he claim SK in the hood?

[Skybird]

I'm good with leashing TSO. If he is scum, like he said in 2190, we now control his team's kill.

My only question for TSO is what happens when all the scum are dead?

[Skybird]

I for one won't vote TSO today. I've been reading along and I don't see a downside to keeping him around for a few days.

[Skybird]

VOTE: redff posting from phone, but this is the dir ed crooning want to go today. Here or texcat/mah

Can you explain this vote? Also, explain if you still think mah is scum or who else is scum?

Firebringer-Who do you think is scum? You read on Red especially considering you are in a hood with him?

Shinobi-What's your objection to Texcat kill? Why is she town? I'm tired and can't remember if I asked you that in my last quote wall.

@Ozgin-If you don't want to lynch TSO, do you have a good idea on who you do think is scum today?

Skybird-Same question as Ozgin.

I've been looking at things trying to determine the best lynch for today. I'll post my notes in a bit.

[Skybird]

I had reasons to both like and dislike that post.
Who is scum, exactly?

ive kind of been caught up on pushing tso so i haven't been thinking about this too much but mahonster annadog and kop are my strong scumreads rn

who do you think is scum shinobi?

Red, I don't think you've ever explained why Mahonster is scum. Could you explain please?

[Skybird]

Lapsa, is GM SwampCat? I'm guessing that is the case since you are quoting her.

[Skybird]

Lapsa, is GM SwampCat? I'm guessing that is the case since you are quoting her.

Aero is SwampCat

Aero is the mod, not a player. So how can Aero sit on a "haven't read the game" excuse not to vote?

[Skybird]

I'm not sold on a Red lynch. I've spent some time going over his ISO this weekend and while yes there are filler posts and posts that look scummy, there are also posts that look town. (Red has made a couple of posts on other suspects in the last couple of pages.) Red has mentioned that he wanted to look at who Wake suspected and then listed the three people that Wake had: TSO, Silverwolf, Shinobi. Wake was correct on TSO, but I don't think he was right on Wolfie and I have been town-reading Shinobi for the most part. I will say I haven't studied Shinobi in-depth yet so I could be missing something. But my gut feel from reading the game is he is town.

This early in the day I don't like people trying to narrow down everything to only two people because that is what it feels like is happening. I understand narrowing the lynch pool but I don't like the either/or feel of some of the posts. Mahonster's name has been brought up and also Texcat and Kop. I'd like to look at these three and think others should as well.

[Skybird]

TSO, why are you trying so hard to steer the lynch and your shot? At this point you are caught scum/3rd Party. I don't trust you to be truthful about who is scum since there is a chance you are caught scum and not 3rd party.

[Skybird]

Goodmorning - you have to make a choice between me and Red. You can't wait any longer. I'll be extremely disappointed if you vote me, but one way or another you have to make your mind up. Catching up on this game is a waste of time because the last 10 pages have been a giant chucklefuck of nobody listening to anyone else.

Because red is still likely to flip scum, in my book, and is the popular choice today. I wanted texcat dead earlier but no-one else would vote him.

I don't give two fucks about your book. You're not aligned with town so the fact that you are driving the red wagon makes me nervous.

I totally agree with Frogger. TSO keeps trying to set up an either/or situation between himself and Red. We have time. Don't let a known anti-town (TSO) drive the lynch candidate.

[Skybird]

Wolfie, I know you have suggested a couple of people. I agree Mahonster and Tex need to be explored. I've spent some time on Red's ISO and I'm still torn about him. I'd like to have some time to go through both Mahonster and Tex before deciding which person I'd lynch today or have TSO shoot if we go the leash option.

I also admit to feeling frustrated with all the BS going on about lynching or leashing.

[Skybird]

VOTE: RedFF

I can point to posts of his that I think are town, but overall there are more scummy posts than town posts.

[Skybird]

I'm good with TSO shooting either Tex or Mahonster.

[Skybird]

Why do you think that Nos?

I see no other place for my vote. The only question is how long do we want today to be?

VOTE: TSO

[Skybird]

UNVOTE:

Let's give everyone a chance to log on and make comments today before we lynch TSO, OK?

[Skybird]

I agree we should not lynch him. He didn't do what he was supposed to. I'm sure when he gets here he will claim he was roleblocked. I don't care, he dies. But it is very anti town to not give everyone a chance to weigh in today.

[Skybird]

EBWOP: that first sentence should be "I agree we should lynch him."

[Skybird]

I want to vote Ozgin but I don't want to put him at L-1 just yet. I think it would be nice to have a chance to do some more scum hunting before we end this day.

[Skybird]

Nosferatu, I have reasons to believe Kop is town. I don't want to disclose them now though.

[Skybird]

Why would you self vote Ozgin? That seems anti town at best.

[Skybird]

VOTE: Fro99er
Ozgin claimed Fro was town in D2. Based on his flip and death note, there's no way for this to be true.

Is this your only issue with Frogger? What in his play do you see as scummy?

[Skybird]

Sorry, I should have gone V/LA. My daughter's family has been here and leaves today so I should be able to get back to this later today.

[Skybird]

VOTE: Mahonster

In reading his ISO I don't see a ton of scum hunting. He spends a lot time discussing the neighborhoods but it's more information instead of analysis. Silverwolf called him out for being all over the place in his reads and he brushed it off with "that's pretty normal". (post 2467) He wants people to put out reads lists but I don't see a reads list from him in his ISO.

[Skybird]

Nosferatu, you scum with Mahonster?

[Skybird]

I can see that.
First actual spark of things to discuss.

Skybird can you confirm?
Fro99er do you think it'd definitely possible that Kop could have invited a town read scum team player? (Possibly Sky)?

Yes, I can confirm that Kop is a neighborizer in charge of the penthouse.

At this point, I'm unsure why Sky still wants to keep the penthouse secret. We're in a dire situation with 8 alive, and likely 3 scum left. Right now town needs all the information it can get, and Kop and Sky want to be secretive. I don't get it.

I wasn't going to argue with Kop about it at that point. I came back to our original hood so I could talk to you about Kop because like you, I am no longer reading him as town.

I think this is MyLo, ugh.

I'm comfortable with this VOTE: Kop

seems rushed

That doesn't matter much now anyway, because if Sky is scum, she's scum (I still think she's town, but I'm getting paranoia about her now).

i find it unlikely that SilverWolf would flip scum

@Skybird what's the idea of secrecy?

I didn't want to argue with Kop about it.

As Frog mentioned, Silverwolf did visit our neighborhood N1. She was able to see some of the things I had been posting and saw that I am town. She also townread Frogger from that visit. When Kop asked her who he should bring in to the Penthouse next, she mentioned either me or Frog. Kop never offers any thoughts on anyone and accepts Silverwolf's reads. I have read and re-read the beginning of that thread trying to see if there is anything to indicate that Kop is confirmed town. Silverwolf assumes that he is town because he talks about another game that they were in where they worked well together as masons. There's nothing in the hood that indicates why Silverwolf thought he was town. I haven't checked the main thread yet to see if she said anything here.

VOTE: Kop

[Skybird]

UNVOTE: Kop

I read the wiki entry on neighborizer and the article states that this role is usually town. I know that doesn't mean the role is always town. The problem with Frog's point on mod-meta is even if the scum neighborizer was killed N1, the slot still flipped and people saw that Aero had that role in his game. I could see him using it again in an unrelated game, but why use it in Delicious II? Heck, just having a neighborizer has led us into a WIFOM place.

[Skybird]

@Mod, food queue: Lutafisk, egg rolls, smoked salmon, coconut shrimp, whole lobster

[Skybird]

Frogger, one thing I keep going back to is Silverwolf definitely seemed to trust Kop. She is generally very good at reading people.

However, if Kop were mafia or werewolf, I would think that Kop would tell his team to leave her alone until she started suspecting him. But the other team could have got her.

How about lynching GM today? I haven't seen much of game solving out of her and I know she is a good player.

[Skybird]

VOTE: Mahonster

I feel pretty confident this is scum.

[Skybird]

I'm willing to sheep Frogger right now.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: GoodMorning

[Skybird]

Good game everyone!

Aero, don't I win with town too?

[Skybird]

Thanks Aero for hosting a great game! I also will pre-in for anything you mod.