New York 180 (Endgame)

[Shinobi]

@Shinobi: 3 kills N1, probably.

I was going to say there were only two kills but I'm stupid and forgot that VF claimed he was healed.

[Shinobi]

@ika please look at 6318? ty

Mass Murderer

That is all I'm giving. You can look at options to see what could and could not exist.

I figured it was an sc2mafia role.

[Shinobi]

Honestly I'm probably going to vote Kitz. How long I take to vote is up to you guys.

[Shinobi]

Honestly I'm probably going to vote Kitz. How long I take to vote is up to you guys.

Then why did I defend T S O so much if I'm mafia as opposed to getting him lynched?

Useless wifom, much like the rest of your posting.

[Shinobi]

Feeling like this is also oversimplified town logic.

Elaborate?

[Shinobi]

Are you going to elaborate on your kitz read or no?

[Shinobi]

What's the case on shinobi? I was scum reading him early on but then I started town reading him. Big time don't remember why cause this game has gone for so long.

Tldr is that people think I'm not doing anything.

[Shinobi]

Awesome.

Talk to me; who do we lynch right now? I'm still biased in the sense that I want to kill Kitz but I know my personal reasons are probably getting in the way.

[Shinobi]

So, hypothetical scenario: Marquis is town.

What's next?

[Shinobi]

Alright, I guess we'll cross this bridge tomorrow if the game doesn't end.
I really don't think it will but w/e.

[Shinobi]

People who rendered slightly less suspect by dint of VC stuff:
dragon
Shinobi

Why are Shinobi in that part?

Composition of the early TSO wagon iirc. I don't have that doc open atm though.

dot dot dot
I'm super curious as to what you have to say about this tbh.

[Shinobi]

I'm not going to follow up on this Kitz/GM stuff until later.

[Shinobi]

@cheetory

Sorry for getting it backwards. I've been questioning marquis for my own reasons. I'm also second guessing myself for my own reasons. I will likely.vote for marquis if I see no better options.

The only ones I refuse to consider voting for are gc and

gm

at this point

Why?

[Shinobi]

Marquis PoE'ing me as the last scum is literal dick. I can't even argue with "PoE." Useless.

[Shinobi]

also i'm fairly sure kitz's experience/interpretation of mass murderer is spot on and explains the death history

i just dont know if its bp or not which is pretty much the only thing i wish ika would clarify

If it's anything like the SC2mafia permutation of the role, absolutely.

[Shinobi]

Shin, why didn't you take a side in the TSO/Ozgin debate?

I explained why at the start of day: neither side made sense when taking the pisskop shot into account.

Plus, Ozgin hammered himself.

[Shinobi]

Marquis PoE'ing me as the last scum is literal dick. I can't even argue with "PoE." Useless.

Okay.
What does it make you think of him?
And what do you think of my case on him?

I have mixed feelings about Marquis. I still think that the transparency of his stances and his frustrations reads as very town, considering it's the one thing I've seen 0 of in his scumgames and in my own experience with him.
But he's still throwing me out there as "last scum" for little to nothing. Kind of annoying. I don't think it's

overly

scummy at this juncture but it depends on how hard he winds up pushing it.

[Shinobi]

At any rate, GM is probably my preferred lynch for today. Kitz saying that she took no action at the time TSO wound up shooting her most likely means she's mafia, and her response leaves much to be desired. She tried to retroactively tell us that she took a different night action, which is kind of terrible, and never bothered to take the likely explanation of "TSO was 3p and didn't really have incentive to tell us the truth about anything," more likely out of a sense of guilt over anything else.

(It's kind of besides the point since TSO was likely townsiding anyway since, as Mass Murderer is likely bulletproof, mafia wanted him gone and shot him at least twice.)
VOTE: Goodmorning

[Shinobi]

i am pretty unmotivated to build a long and coherent shinobi case in the same way that i was for the last day of the tso case.

You're aware TSO wasn't even mafia, yes?

[Shinobi]

the case was that he wasn't town

you still seem quite hung up over my very initial idea of you two "driving a scumteam" together. i don't really remember even suggesting that kind of alliance past beginning of day 5.

i'm hoping it stuck in your mind because you actually are scum, but just didn't want to be painted together with tso if he was sk

It stuck in my mind because you're tunneling me like a dipshit and not listening to a word I say.

Maybe that has something to do with it.

[Shinobi]

"This analysis on GM is actually pretty accurate, but let's vote Shinobi instead, because ???"

Good job.

[Shinobi]

She tried to retroactively tell us that she took a different night action

No, I didn't.

That's not what this reads like.

[Shinobi]

Kitz saying that she took no action at the time TSO wound up shooting her most likely means she's mafia, and her response leaves much to be desired

Wait what does your read on GM have to do with Kitz?

*Kitz saying that GM said she took no action at the time TSO wound up shooting her.

Clarified it.

[Shinobi]

She tried to retroactively tell us that she took a different night action

No, I didn't.

That's not what this reads like.

Translation of that post:
TSO might possibly have sat home thinking I was going to come to him.


That said, it's still more likely that he was RB'd.

I don't really believe you tbh.

[Shinobi]

Eck. I forgot this game is still a thing. :/
Kitz, GM, dragon and GC should make votes. Pls.

Marquis still makes the most sense for scum in my head. Was wavering for a bit in my confidence and I think that has a lot to do with his personality being pretty likeable, but his interactions with Ozgin/Aero just make a lot more sense to me as coming from scum/scum interactions.
It looks pretty awful to me that he ignored the possibility of scumOzgin and was instead focusing on just scumTSO/scumGC possibilities, the latter looking particularly off.

Alternatively I don't really understand either of the cases on GM or Shinobi and I don't really care enough to ISO either of them at this point. If someone wants my vote there they should convince me because I'm tired of how boring this game is and something needs to happen q.q

It'd be great if we win, but if not, I'd be happy just for this to be over so like.. can we work towards making a choice and getting this over with?

Basically. This is pretty much what happens when mafia shoots the heart and soul of the entire game. W/e.

I'll review your case in the morning because I cba to do it now.

[Shinobi]

lol this game hurts to read.

[Shinobi]

Took a glance at Cheetory's case. Some notes:

>Scum

could

make a big splash as a replace in. Alternatively, they might just not, so how does that make him scum?
>Something looking fake doesn't really mean a whole lot.
>

Could

be bussing doesn't mean that it is. What makes it

only

bussing in that circumstance?
>The points on Marquis coaching and "soft defending Aeronaut while voting him" are mega convoluted and super tinfoil.

The best points I saw were Marquis trying to get TSO lynched over Ozgin and not engaging dragonspawn when he had the opportunity to. The former is the best point that you've brought up, but that brings up a big holy that needs to be filled in order to solidify the case:

If the Aeronaut/Shinobi vote was dead-even without Ozgin switching, why does scum!Marquis vote Aeronaut?

[Shinobi]

*Hole, not holy. lol don't try to post at 3 am guys.

GM brought up votecounts about how I'm probably town, posted her findings and didn't come to a conclusion about anything. She brought up a votecount about how I voted TSO with Aeronaut and said how we probably weren't buddies only to turn around and say that me voting town in a TvT cross was scummy, and she couldn't draw a conclusion.

Like wtf? How is that town?

[Shinobi]

I don't know how many votes hammer is but nobody hammer until tomorrow at least.
I'm too tired to sort Marquis' current voteswitch.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: gm

compromising because i'm not lynching kitz. scum action theory can support this too.

Scum action theory?

[Shinobi]

GM brought up votecounts about how I'm probably town, posted her findings and didn't come to a conclusion about anything. She brought up a votecount about how I voted TSO with Aeronaut and said how we probably weren't buddies only to turn around and say that me voting town in a TvT cross was scummy, and she couldn't draw a conclusion.

Like wtf? How is that town?

lololololololololololol

ALL ABOARD THE GOOD SHIP MISREP, MY FRIENDS

How is this misrep? That's exactly what this looks like.

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE:

[Shinobi]

I have absolutely no idea what to say to either of you to make you not vote me.
Kinda frustrating.

[Shinobi]

Uh, thoughts, so I put some effort into this game.

I personally think Shin is the best vote. He just sat on the sidelines in the TSO/Oz debate, which was probably the safest place for scum. Nobody appears to agree with this, so whatev.

I think GM is the most town person playing. I liked the PT he shared with SW. Plus I don't think a scum-neighborizer picked the town who was already neighbored to a scum neighbor. I'm therefore willing to sheep GM because he has a wider grasp on the game than I do.

I was the counterwagon to scum on day 5.

How the fuck is my "sidelines" on day 6, which I completely explained, scummy?

[Shinobi]

We're you worried someone would hammer or did you change your mind on gm?

Little bit of both tbh.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: shinobi

gc i've been for this and in part for reasons really similar to yours for a while now. shin lynch is best lynch

I still don't know what scum action theory is.

[Shinobi]

As a default, scum are disinclined to bus or defend a buddy. A 1 v 1 situation requires them to do one or the other. Simply opting out of taking a stance on the 1 v 1 allows scum to avoid bussing or defending, while allowing to see how the situation develops (and potentially jumping on at the right moment, in either direction, depending on how the situation develops).

Wtf are you talking about?

This is, like, mega convoluted.

[Shinobi]

I don't really think so, but to each their own I suppose.

Regardless, what's the difference between "scum doing whatever it is you're talking about" and town?

[Shinobi]

Uh, thoughts, so I put some effort into this game.

I personally think Shin is the best vote. He just sat on the sidelines in the TSO/Oz debate, which was probably the safest place for scum. Nobody appears to agree with this, so whatev.

I think GM is the most town person playing. I liked the PT he shared with SW. Plus I don't think a scum-neighborizer picked the town who was already neighbored to a scum neighbor. I'm therefore willing to sheep GM because he has a wider grasp on the game than I do.

I was the counterwagon to scum on day 5.

How the fuck is my "sidelines" on day 6, which I completely explained, scummy?

being a counter wagon doesn't make you town. Last scum game I played we deliberately set up a scum v scum wagon to give one of then town cred when they flipped. You may have missed that since we did get you flashlynched the day before.

That game is a terrible example of pretty much anything. The counterwagons were between a guy who claimed a cop guilty on the actual cop and the guilty of the actual cop. Both of them were confirmed mafia and town not lynching them doesn't speak anything of the concept of counterwagons; it just tells you how unbelievably bad town was in the first place.

I know the point you're trying to make but the logic doesn't hold up.

[Shinobi]

GM am I town or scum?

[Shinobi]

Good question. Are you scum or town?

It'd be funnier if you didn't completely miss the point of the question.

[Shinobi]

I think I'm pretty firm tbh.

[Shinobi]

Eh.

[Shinobi]

kitz is town
cheet town
dragon town

gm uh.

shin scum regardless of gm

Why am I scum?

[Shinobi]

I can hammer when I finish flying.

[Shinobi]

idgi
gc thinks shin is scum but is voting kitz??
lame af

No he doesn't. His opinion changed.

[Shinobi]

Anyone still around?

[Shinobi]

I'm around.

Give me a minute.

[Shinobi]

Well don't I feel powerful.

Hrmhrmhrm.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: goodmorning

Are you confident on GM being last scum?

[Shinobi]

lol

Me either, but I feel better about that than a Kitz wagon.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: goodmorning

Sorry if wrong.

[Shinobi]

I hope so.

I'm gonna feel really stupid if GM is actually a neighborizer and we just lynched ANOTHER one of our PRs.

[Shinobi]

Well I feel dumb.

[Shinobi]

kitz is town and i'm town and shinobi is scum so if it's not 5v2 rn we can afford to mislynch me tomorrow

i'm done with this anyway

I still don't even know why you think I'm scum.

[Shinobi]

Can mafia claim another PR or something?

We're really good at killing those.

[Shinobi]

anyway
VOTE: shinobi

Still don't know why you think I'm scum.

[Shinobi]

Yeah I'm at the point where I'm willing to plynch Marquis.

[Shinobi]

Marquis makes two posts today and everyone is like "LETS KILL 'IM".
Me talking about him all of yesterday is *handwave*.
:c

Fwiw I acknowledged what you said.

[Shinobi]

Vla until Saturday evening.

[Shinobi]

so this pretty much confirms one scum left i think
otherwise night wouldn't be less than 24h without warning

Has the length of nights been variable throughout the game?

Anyone can answer.

Not afaik. Might be listed in the op but I can't really double check atm.

[Shinobi]

Marquis you have a small window to post your case before I plynch you for being insufferable.

I'm back from V/LA but the game isn't going in any major directions so whatever.

[Shinobi]

shinobi is scum because everyone else is town
there
problem solved
lynch
now

Rofl, you are literally useless.

Are you actually going to build a case and play the game or is this all I have to look forward to?

[Shinobi]

I'm still waiting, Marquis. I'm not going to wait forever.

[Shinobi]

Less than three days and Marquis still cba to make a case and do actual things.

Unreal.

[Shinobi]

"Mad at lack of a case thing" is something that happens to players that play both alignments.

Would you accept the fact that someone was voting you and wouldn't explain why as either alignment? Like really.

[Shinobi]

Just because you mislynched once doesn't mean you shouldn't keep scumhunting and discussing things with people.

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around you being scum but you're not leaving me a whole lot of recourse, and I'm reaching the end of my "care about alignments" mindset.

It's not even like this game is unwinnable: we probably only have one scum left and a mislynch to boot, so we can make this work. I'd be ecstatic to make this game work against all odds but you're not helping me.

[Shinobi]

kitz town because genuine in a way that's hard AND not surface-beneficial to fake as scum
you're town bc this is your town game and genuine disinterest then interest in lynching me which prob wouldn't happen as scum

Can you elaborate more on these two?

[Shinobi]

"Mad at lack of a case thing" is something that happens to players that play both alignments.

Would you accept the fact that someone was voting you and wouldn't explain why as either alignment? Like really.

you were there and you know the full extent of what i mean by that when i held it against tso

granted your response is a bit better because when i attacked him with "your posts obviously show you don't even have a townread on yourself" his response was "no they don't"

but it's not just "mad at lack of a case", it's that and the same as tso in that for the past few game days

i haven't gotten a single sense of you playing this game like you know you're town in spite of the suspicion or that you have a legitimate town mindset rather than just saying things that feel logical and don't raise too many eyebrows

It's almost like making sense means that I'm probably town.


No but really, feels don't mean anything and I have no idea what I'm supposed to say to you in order to sate the bolded. What exactly would you be expecting from me in terms of "knowing that I'm town?"

[Shinobi]

D:

[Shinobi]

if u want me to be rude we could go with "u wouldnt be this sensible as town"

or we could just all remember that i was your scumpartner for a significant amount of time and this strongly reminds me of your scumgame in suburbia anyway

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

As opposed to what, exactly? Like, what's the difference between my town game and my scum game to you?

I don't see what Suburban Warfare has to do with anything or how that's related to this game. Elaborate?

Pedit: Maybe, mayhaps. Feels like I'm making more progress when you cut to the heart of the matter.

[Shinobi]

Your logic for townreading Kitz doesn't seem particularly great either. Most of it is based on posturing and the rest of it is based on playing too badly to be scum.

[Shinobi]

The best I can give for Kitz being town is her martyring, and that's about it.

Pedit: lol that's mean, but I like it.

[Shinobi]

Okay. New plan:

I'm town. Who's next if/when I die?

[Shinobi]

for last scum it's between her and you
and her posts are more driven and much more genuine than yours
yours are all focused on as i was actually kind of serious about, cold logic - what i know of your towngame from rick santorum mafia isn't as cold/emotionless as this has been either especially when faced with people scumreading you - when that happened there, you didn't exactly go ballistic, no, but you showed sides of amusement and "holy shit are u serious" and etc etc
your posts here could be made by any robot given the task of spewing out beeps and boops as mafia!code dictates

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I'm sorry, have you actually read this game at all? I spent almost all of day 5 getting uppity at people and calling them stupid.
I even screamed at Kitz at the start of yesterday.

Like wtf. Rofl.

[Shinobi]

I still don't understand the distinction you're trying to make, either.

I wasted a ton of posts in Suburban Warfare cracking jokes and telling people that they were cool.

[Shinobi]

Alternatively I could be fucking with you on purpose just to make you think that I'm scum making you try to think I'm town.

Think about it.

[Shinobi]

knowing i'd probably just give up that game of snake and eat my own ass in confusion?

Shit you got me.

[Shinobi]

Anyhoezels I am going to bed.

I'll figure out my primary lynch in the morning.

[Shinobi]

So I'm town because I'm too bad to be scum and too bad at mafia in general?
Tanks gaiz, u niec, hier hav sum bitchslaps
This game is far too mindfucking and long drawn with not much. It causes a brain drain.
Maybe you didn't have to call me bad if you actually understood my logic and what I said?

GC, why don't you make a case on me instead of saying I'm scummy with no own basis? Will it remain with "basis on GM"?

Anyyyyway, my reads are :
Cheetory is definitively a member of the town.
Green Crayons has this scummy vipe, but is auto-town because why the heck would you neighbour two scum together?
Shinobi seems to be trying very little and is just sitting back watching, while being snarky. Inbetween towny and scummy.
Marquis is totally the "save the trees" and "them feels" guy, and is inbetween of scummy and towny.
I myself am scummy for genuinly thinking that Aero was town pre-lynch, and that I "bussed" Oz and was bussed by Piss. (What?)

Personally, I want to hear from Cheetory who to lynch because he appears unbiased.

Do you actually have a scumread or no?

[Shinobi]

It's not either of those people.

[Shinobi]

This is like the least helpful kind of thing you could be doing right now. q.q
Like.
Fuck. I don't know.
How about instead of making me upset at the idea of you potentially being cheeky scum messing with me you like comment on me or Shinobi or Kitz or literally anything else?

He already commented on me/Kitz and said that it was between us for last scum.

Btw I'm leaning towards killing Kitz today, jsyk.

[Shinobi]

i'm not cheeky as scum though

anyway after sleeping on it i still kind of want shinobi dead the most

sorry shin-boi if u thought the heat was off after i was somehow half-convinced i was wrong at 3 in the morning!!

I don't understand how your read changed here.

[Shinobi]

Btw I'm leaning towards killing Kitz today, jsyk.

Then make a case on me?

I'll do so when I get home.

[Shinobi]

i'm not cheeky as scum though

anyway after sleeping on it i still kind of want shinobi dead the most

sorry shin-boi if u thought the heat was off after i was somehow half-convinced i was wrong at 3 in the morning!!

I don't understand how your read changed here.

Elaborate on this Marquis?

[Shinobi]

Spectacular votecount.

I'm tempted to just up and flip Kitz here so we know if it was a bus or not that happened on day 5.
Her giant mafia post where she comes to no conclusion was scummy as well. She realized that she didn't have the answer to the game in yet made no effort to question her top two suspects.

A plausible lynch I think.

[Shinobi]

/shrug

That's what I've got atm.

[Shinobi]

I thought it'd be longer but it wasn't.

Do you have a response for it or no?

[Shinobi]

Could've brought it up earlier, and you might've just written that while not home...

How is the timing/size of my case the thing you focus on and not the case itself?

[Shinobi]

I honestly have no clue how many scum we have left, but 5 mafia + a mass murder seems rather ridiculous considering what can actually happen in this game.

One seems more reasonable.

[Shinobi]

Well, Shinobi, it's been so long that I forgot some things. Wouldn't mind a reminder.

Altho, if my lynch is the most beneficial with information and there's 1 scum left, I can vote myself. It's the best I can do, if it helps the game advance in the correct way.
Want to do it here and now?

Uuuuuggghhhh.
You and your martyring.

[Shinobi]

Kitz, if I'm not mafia, why is Marquis mafia?

Detailed reasons plx.

[Shinobi]

Kitz, if I'm not mafia, why is Marquis mafia?

Detailed reasons plx.

I know neither of the two of yours meta, and I'm not going to try meta either.
Limited info as a Citizen / Vanilla Town.

That said, let's look on the vote stances of both you and Marquiz?
Who were most willing to vote, and who were fencesitting the most?

Why don't you look and draw a conclusion instead of getting me to do it?

Oh lol is today deadline?

Yeah...

[Shinobi]

Rofl. Okay then.

Gc, dragonspawn died today.

[Shinobi]

NOBODY SNAP VOTE TOMORROW.

I DONT TRUST ANY OF YOU NOT TO DO IT.

[Shinobi]

Hmmm.

Self vote gives me pause.

However, Kitz jumped the gun and didn't self hammer.

This is the all-in on the gambit if Kitz=scum.

Oh that wasn't hammer? Goody.

I'll be home later, nobody do anything crazy.

[Shinobi]

Oh lol then yeah dragon is totes town guys!

Nice save.

[Shinobi]

Btw GC, when Ozgin voted me he put me to L-1.

[Shinobi]

I

still

don't know why Marquis thinks I'm scum.

Like, we discussed it and his read changed almost, and then it changed back and idk why. I'd really like to know soonish.

[Shinobi]

Sorry, I'll bite a bullet doing this.

VOTE: Marquis

Why Marquis over me?

[Shinobi]

I'll be home and active in like a half hour or so.

[Shinobi]

Alright, I'm here.

And I still don't know why Kitz is voting Marquis.
Or doing much of anything, really.

[Shinobi]

So. Self pity/vote gambit?

Seems like it.

When you look at everything Kitz has done today, it mostly boils down to "selfvote and then call other people suspicious because nonreasons."

[Shinobi]

4:20 left

not sure what I want to do now. this feels exactly like yesterday's compromise deadline lynch.

Tell me why your read on me changed and why you think I'm scum again.

[Shinobi]

Right.

I'm going to bed. Because it's late.

VOTE: Kitz

I am okay with this.

I just want people to answer the last few questions I have before I vote.

[Shinobi]

I'm here and will vote Kitz.

[Shinobi]

I really just think everyone else is town.

I've said this over and over again.

I would not be this stubborn about it if it was just a scumread on Shinobi. I always have significantly more confidence (and accuracy) in my townreads than my scumreads.

The only reason people are confident in their townreads is because it's far easier to be accurate in regards to townreads just because there are more townies than mafia.

Pedit: Holy Marquis spam batman.

[Shinobi]

I'm starting to panic because I really think this day is crucial and that if we don't lynch the scum today we'll be doomed with me in 3p LYLO

and before any of you jump on that "OMG HOW DO U KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO LIVE"

just fucking LOOK AT ME

I'm in the same boat tbh.

[Shinobi]

I don't know.

I'm voting kitz in like 5 minutes or so. If anyone has anything else to say, say so now.

[Shinobi]

SO MUCH SPAM.

CRIPES.

[Shinobi]

(also dragon barely mentioned shin, feel like i should point that out as one last jab or something)

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

[Shinobi]

Also I totally wanted to be the one to vote here but I guess I won't be.

[Shinobi]

Cheeky scum is not a thing.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: Kitz

I don't know if that was hammer or not but I want to make sure.

[Shinobi]

My mind is literally blown.

Like.

How the fuck?

[Shinobi]

I almost got lynched over Aeronaut.
And almost the entire Shinobi wagon was town.

Disgusting.

[Shinobi]

Just an fyi, I would have lynched TSO over you.

Any day.

[Shinobi]

I also don't think you played badly at all tbh.

[Shinobi]

Also, replacing SW instead of modkilling her while modkilling elusive was somewhat unfair.

[Shinobi]

A lot of shit town play led up to this endgame.
I wouldn't take it too personally.

P-Edit: TBF, both the modkills this game took away easy mislynches.

Except for the mafia one that didn't happen.
Why didn't that happen?

Btw, sorry for mislynch GM.

[Shinobi]

@GM: lol, lucky you, because I totally do sometimes. I think I kinda wrote this one off though.

I was never sold on NJ being scum and probably would have backed him against someone like Aeronaut, but wharvez I guess.

Afaik, elusive was modkilled for fighting with SW, who was mafia. SW got replaced. elusive got modkilled.
I don't understand why that panned out the way it did but silencing a mafia voice with a modkill probably would have changed the game, at least a little bit.

[Shinobi]

idk, maybe i just feel like i feel because of my townread on him.

p-edit: well there's always going to be that one time that it's literally so stupid you can't cope with it.

Yeah, I won an award the last time that happened lmfao. W/e.

But seriously. Modkill thing. What happened there?
Pedit: Oh, so that giant wall was what happened. Okay.

[Shinobi]

Btw cheetory's push on Marquis was legit hilarious.
Marquis called him town because of meta, and then cheetory said, "bleh, that's kind of bad meta, you're still scum."

WHO SAYS THAT?

[Shinobi]

Why did people think Aero was town?