New York 180 (Endgame)

[Marquis]

this game is hilarious that's why i'm here

anything i should know before finishing my skim

[Marquis]

TSO's exasperation reads like a toddler who's getting slapped every page

it's p. funny tbh

[Marquis]

VOTE: pisskop

makes a lot of sense as a pisskop partner. iso doesn't satisfy my genuineness receptors either

[Marquis]

VOTE: fa_q2

sorry, it's late

[Marquis]

wake's replace out was town because i'm town

get with it and i'll get with you later

[Marquis]

convenient flip on the wake replacement opinion, faq2

even if i'm the one who gets lynched today, let the record show who the actual scum is : )

[Marquis]

whenever i tried to just skim before i replaced in i kept going over how day 2 and 3 lynches unfolded while knowing the end results, and i found myself busy laughing. i don't think i have a great grasp on the game yet but now that i'm on town's side and not just some sadistic onlooker it's a bit less funny to me. well except tso. i'm not going to bother myself too much with reading him but if i get some sort of feeling about certain aggression from him then idk maybe.

basically this game is huge and i was feeling good about it until i replaced in and got town and now i have to try and actually get something done about scum in the face of all these pr deaths. especially the lynches and abr's decisions. ugh. gross.

i did look at pisskop's iso and i think it points to fa_q2 being scum both from his own and quoted content, though. if anyone wants to check up on that too that'd be fun we can talk about it together later

i'll come back here to post tomorrow, hopefully. will catch up a bit in between now and then.

[Marquis]

The following are the only mentions or connections between pisskop and FA_Q2 in pisskop's ISO:

I completely agree with this analysis. vikingfan's lynch would be most informative because if he flips scum, we can look at the votes on dragon's wagon like Aero and pisskop more closely. If he flips town, dragon would be a good D2 vote.

I don't understand. Viking is the lynchbait. What would lynching the one who is more likely town tell us? House said the same thing, in 464.

I never said vikingfan was lynchbait or more likely to be town. I've been arguing vikingfan is scum for several posts now. Plus, he's an informative lynch due to the counterwagon on dragon.

FA_Q2 has a point

I am taking the stance that Viking is the bait, and House and you thought Dragon was 'just being Dragon'.

If you believed he didnt know what RVS was what makes you think he even gets what a scumslip is? I'll grant that his post where he voted Dragon was bad, but Im not convinced wasnt overconfidence

House

dragon, please don't humor FA's poor push. It's not even worth it.

What is this? Do you not read or not care? She clearly states her opinion here:

That assumes that viking is more likely town then Dragon. I don't think that is the case and I don't see anything from silver that would indicate that she thinks so either unless I missed something.

Playstyles such as mine, ABR's, and dragonspawn's, to name a few, raise flags when people use such a convenient excuse to votepark them instead of actively scumhunt and pressure suspects.

Looking over your meta, I really dislike your playstyle in general. You seem to purposely want to piss people off, and then call them scum for it. Others have noted your willingness to call either scum; and you seem to have lost interest in ABR.

(Actually I do have him and TSO at leaning scum, along with FA_Q2 and the House slot.)

Can you lay down your reasons for all four of these slots?

The above mentions avoid direct interaction with FA_Q2 and all lightly defend him, without ever committing to or giving a read on FA_Q2 despite those defenses.

Why? That is the least likely time that a CC is going to happen. That is the entire point of scum trying to claim ai really good PR after all - to get them to out themselves.

Hunh. I guess if they thought they could perform more townishly than the actual cop. And nobody tried to track them. Was that a part of the old site meta?

I am confused at what you are trying to say here. It supports what I was getting at and I have no idea about the 'old' site. This is essentially my first game here :D

A cop claim on day one is unlikely to be CC for precisely those reasons - the fake cop can be caught without reveling the real cop at a later time. The fake claiming scum WANTS a counter claim (at least this early in the game) - then they can take out the cop before there are any confirmed townies/scum.

I think I'm overthinking it now . . .
. If its possible or likely the town can find out in other ways whether or not its a fake claim, and the cop themself knows it, then they could simply reveal when they felt comfortable. They could essentially use the fakeclaim as a free scumclaim, and start investigating suspects around the fakeclaimer.
. I guess I don't expect scum to try something that is eventually going to fail.

And the only two direct interactions with FA_Q2 are shallow. In other words, pisskop's comments to FA_Q2 are obviously designed to give as non-alignment-indicative of a response as possible, which makes more sense for interaction between scumpartners, especially because this is in stark contrast to interactions with flipped town like Klingoncelt, Ellie, and Mathblade. His interactions with them in the ISO were in-depth and actually talked about reads both relating to those players and others.

[Marquis]

i think we should lynch fa_q2 instead of just going "hmmm that's interesting ok now let's move on"

[Marquis]

The following are the only mentions or connections between pisskop and FA_Q2 in pisskop's ISO:

I completely agree with this analysis. vikingfan's lynch would be most informative because if he flips scum, we can look at the votes on dragon's wagon like Aero and pisskop more closely. If he flips town, dragon would be a good D2 vote.

I don't understand. Viking is the lynchbait. What would lynching the one who is more likely town tell us? House said the same thing, in 464.

I never said vikingfan was lynchbait or more likely to be town. I've been arguing vikingfan is scum for several posts now. Plus, he's an informative lynch due to the counterwagon on dragon.

FA_Q2 has a point

I am taking the stance that Viking is the bait, and House and you thought Dragon was 'just being Dragon'.

If you believed he didnt know what RVS was what makes you think he even gets what a scumslip is? I'll grant that his post where he voted Dragon was bad, but Im not convinced wasnt overconfidence

House

dragon, please don't humor FA's poor push. It's not even worth it.

What is this? Do you not read or not care? She clearly states her opinion here:

That assumes that viking is more likely town then Dragon. I don't think that is the case and I don't see anything from silver that would indicate that she thinks so either unless I missed something.

Playstyles such as mine, ABR's, and dragonspawn's, to name a few, raise flags when people use such a convenient excuse to votepark them instead of actively scumhunt and pressure suspects.

Looking over your meta, I really dislike your playstyle in general. You seem to purposely want to piss people off, and then call them scum for it. Others have noted your willingness to call either scum; and you seem to have lost interest in ABR.

(Actually I do have him and TSO at leaning scum, along with FA_Q2 and the House slot.)

Can you lay down your reasons for all four of these slots?

The above mentions avoid direct interaction with FA_Q2 and all lightly defend him, without ever committing to or giving a read on FA_Q2 despite those defenses.

Why? That is the least likely time that a CC is going to happen. That is the entire point of scum trying to claim ai really good PR after all - to get them to out themselves.

Hunh. I guess if they thought they could perform more townishly than the actual cop. And nobody tried to track them. Was that a part of the old site meta?

I am confused at what you are trying to say here. It supports what I was getting at and I have no idea about the 'old' site. This is essentially my first game here :D

A cop claim on day one is unlikely to be CC for precisely those reasons - the fake cop can be caught without reveling the real cop at a later time. The fake claiming scum WANTS a counter claim (at least this early in the game) - then they can take out the cop before there are any confirmed townies/scum.

I think I'm overthinking it now . . .
. If its possible or likely the town can find out in other ways whether or not its a fake claim, and the cop themself knows it, then they could simply reveal when they felt comfortable. They could essentially use the fakeclaim as a free scumclaim, and start investigating suspects around the fakeclaimer.
. I guess I don't expect scum to try something that is eventually going to fail.

And the only two direct interactions with FA_Q2 are shallow. In other words, pisskop's comments to FA_Q2 are obviously designed to give as non-alignment-indicative of a response as possible, which makes more sense for interaction between scumpartners, especially because this is in stark contrast to interactions with flipped town like Klingoncelt, Ellie, and Mathblade. His interactions with them in the ISO were in-depth and actually talked about reads both relating to those players and others.

[Marquis]

Apparently not, I just missed that post.

i understand, it was a big one in an already-big game

now vote him

[Marquis]

either I'm a sucker for AtE or I'm right to be having second thoughts.

bleh.

[Marquis]

an early vt claim too.

that makes me lean a bit back in the opposite direction but am i right to?

[Marquis]

yeah, what i meant was lean back away from a scumread.

how experienced is fa_q2? you two are from the same site, right?

[Marquis]

i have no more feelings until i get another flip which will hopefully be my faq2 flip which will in turn hopefully be a scumflip that supertownifies me.

[Marquis]

then i have a wagon to analyze and another nightkill to do so with as well

either way i think there's a really good chance of fa_q2 flipping scum that trumps any of my second thoughts and it's the best choice we have

[Marquis]

also i've been toying with the idea of tso!scum. his treatment of the faq2 wagon and handling post-jump onto it kind of pings.

he's really good as scum too, so right now i'm mostly trying to distinguish my paranoia of that from any legit concerns i have.

[Marquis]

give me a sec.

[Marquis]

9 days

UNVOTE:

i'm going to do a full read.

[Marquis]

VOTE: tso

didn't finish reading but i like this right now. a lot.

[Marquis]

VOTE: fa_q2

this is going on again

tso leaning nullscum, he's just reminding me a lot of his specific aggressive scumplay

[Marquis]

"oh fa is scum"
"wait no"
"oh tso is scum"
"wait no"
"oh fa is scum again"

What are you doing, Marquis?

so i'm not sure of any of my reads anymore, sue me

fa_q2's vt claim and general fatalistic nature made me rethink my scumread on him.

and then your whole extra push on him after that happened with the not-him meta and whatever just looked pretty dang scummy and your aggression keeps reminding me of your scumgame and now you're trying to discredit me for your own benefit even when i was the one to originally make the fa_q2 case and just...

ew. i don't even know anymore. right now i still think fa_q2 is the best lynch, i unvoted him earlier to get time to read, but i think i'm just done with it now and whatever.

[Marquis]

like seriously i just subbed in a week ago and fuck the ambiguity of this game already

[Marquis]

Have you read Street Racers? I'm aggressive there, and I'm town.

I'm just aggressive in general really.

yes i know but there's a specific kind of aggression in your posts that seems to relate a bit more to people scumreading you than you scumreading them and i find that more of a scummy tilt on it

[Marquis]

some of us are old and jaded

don't take it personally

[Marquis]

Some players, though, will try to take a weak reason to scumread someone. And when people try to make effort indicative of alignment, I start to get contrary.

Which is why this post exists.

yeah ur town im town its all good

[Marquis]

gross af

[Marquis]

VOTE: Marquis

I'd be fine with a marquis lynch today, to be honest.

is this a variation on the "honestly" tell because it sure looks like it. there was no need to justify voting me like that, since out of context you could say i'm objectively scummy

i'd say the fa_q2 case is still good and if anything's opportunistic it's certain people taking advantage of my insecurity to jump on my wagon

[Marquis]

"you could say" meaning "anyone could easily say"

i see myself as mislynch bait due not only to wake's departure but also my own inability to trust my own reads past like 12 hours

[Marquis]

also why the fuck is everyone saying wake was obvscum

i can see it looking mildly scummy but overall a replacement is almost always null. just feels like people are trying to stack the wake accusations as something way more damning than they actually should be, like exaggerating how much you can get from a replace out

[Marquis]

VOTE: aeronaut

fuck it i want this dead

[Marquis]

in the future keep better track of the slot you've positioned yourself to mislynch

[Marquis]

i unvoted because i was thinking the claim could be town and i wanted time to read more into scum interactions in the opposite direction, then i had a long night and couldn't give a fuck anymore and wanted to flip the slot as i had before because otherwise my mind would just torture itself over not knowing after noticing and making that case. and then you showed up and made an easy as hell push on me when i already fell on my knees of my own accord, so i think you're scum now.

i have a serious problem with people claiming not to be able to believe that after replacing into a 160 page game a few days ago and only having skimmed day 2 on and read an ISO or two, while simultaneously trying to figure what to do about the threat of being mislynched, i'm unsure of where i stand wrt my reads. the majority of my reads are null of some sort and that doesn't feel good to me. i was liking tso until recently so that's confusing for me. i didn't like fa_q2 and then after he claimed vt it made me want to back up there because wouldn't scum want to claim pr? but then wifom is a possible way to interpret the whole thing which fucks my reads up more.

as i said fuck this ambiguity. so many fucking pr deaths, i just want some sort of pr to catch scum and start leading us in the right direction. heck, mafia was nightkilled this game, not lynched. like what the fuck everything is off and i don't even know where to begin anymore

[Marquis]

why did fa_q2 even claim vt in the first place like ew

[Marquis]

Because I know Wake and his behavior was out of character for him and his play was pretty scummy and reminded me of his scum game. He got angry/frustrated at me too easy at several points, refused to read or pay attention or post reads or vote plus the VF hammer was not like him at all.

i keep thinking he said something about wanting to change the way he plays due to backlash he'd been getting

see the thing is i don't really care right now about how well you claim to know wake, because while i think you're town i have the benefit of knowing wake was town and that you're absolutely wrong as can be on this read.

maybe that's rude for me to say. but fmpov i think you need to reset your reads or just ignore me for now and actually try to look at the fa_q2 case and play, ignoring that it was my/wake's slot that pushed it. that's something you could do that i think would actually help me sort things out, because i don't know if i'm going batshit crazy for having such a mixed opinion on fa_q2 or if other people are feeling that too.

[Marquis]

why did fa_q2 even claim vt in the first place like ew

actually i want him to answer this himself too. i still don't get it.

[Marquis]

VOTE: FA_Q2

i want this so bad now

sorting out my list when i get on a computer

[Marquis]

but tso you know that's how a lot of other sites play mafia (lol smogon)

yeah it still sucks but unfortunately it's the Only Way to Play elsewhere

also i'm sick and tired of you guys characterizing them as "opinion changes".

i'm never sure of my reads (especially when i'm replacing into a huge game, the majority of which i'm not up-to-date on) and just because i'm second guessing a read on the basis that i might not have enough information or that i might have been selectively reading to skew my read does not mean you can characterize my doubts as anything close to read reversals.

all of my votes and unvotes have been me trying to take into account the strength of my read, the opportunity cost should i be wrong and that player be town, and trying to jump around and just get more to work with here. i work best in real time and i can say with certainty that most of my reads have developed more than they would have if i hadn't had the chance to bounce them around and get ideas.

---

town

Marquis
Cheetory6 (i like where he stands on the gamestate; it resonates)
SilverWolf (mostly just gut. hard to explain but there's a certain openness to her thoughts and contributions which even on its own is good enough for me)
Ozgin (effort =/= town, but the perspective seems more openly town)

leantown, relatively new reads. not that reliable, but here because i don't want them in the lynchpool at the moment

T S O (really liked his post about breaking the game open with a scumlynch. my read on him earlier has been jumping back and forth between "i'm seeing a few things i don't like and he's a really strong scumplayer so if he flipped scum it'd be pretty great for town" and "if he's town lynching him would really hurt town", but i'm settling on a slightly hesitant townread here)

i need help here

elusive

(what does 3971 refer to? is this the vig claim that's causing the setup spec vigtalk?)

may be town or scum, either way not worth lynching

Shinobi (i just want to lynch someone too)
Goodmorning (if you're scum good job buddying me, but i like you anyway so whatever)

????????????????????? i dunno

Nobody Special (it's NS. duh.)
Kitz (about a month ago I would have said leantown, but I'm trying to cut down on how much I give bad ideas a pass under "too scum to be scum". this doesn't quite fall under that since I think a lot of what she's said has been new-ish rather than outright scummy, but I don't think I'll be able to commit to anything here in good conscience without a lynch for associatives.)

leanscum. none of these are particularly strong, but this is more of a PoE lynchpool

Aeronaut (opportunistic)
dragonspawn (shallow and unhelpful)
FA_Q2 (the pisskop associative case still stands. earlier i was having second thoughts due to his vt claim, but i've realized this lynch definitely needs to happen unless he gives a great answer as to why he claimed the way he did)

ika, Boonskiies is dead, but was still in the "alive" first post list, jsyk <3

[Marquis]

Marquis: FA_Q2, Silverwolf, dragonspawn, Aeronaut [L-3]

wolfy i still have no idea why you're still on this. i mean. look at who else is voting me. ew.

[Marquis]

elusive i thought you claimed vig? what

[Marquis]

then i saw it but i thought there was more to it that i missed

so much ambiguity

[Marquis]

i feel so dumb right now.

i'll be back later today

[Marquis]

VOTE: dragonspawn

goodmorning goes up into town, unrelated to dragon's things.

tso is nullscum again. part of me thinking he was town end of yesterday was related to me being hugely overconfident about fa_q2 scum. i feel like a lot of his recent posts now in hindsight go along with that, like he's pushing easy targets that town has already made a case on or driving a lynch on. just... his recent attacks and scumreads seem to be pushing easy target after easy target.

actually i kind of really want to just lynch tso but nobody's probably up for that.

pedit oh my god that response pings as honest town though gahhhhhhh

UNVOTE:

...recalculating............ this is.....

why do i get the feeling that we just have a lot of town outclassed by scum in experience at looking town?? shinobi, tso? i could see those two easily driving a scumteam.

i'm just going to get rid of my do-not-lynch list entirely and go for the easier, less-potential-disaster option between those two. there's an added benefit in that i don't remember any significant reads on or from him or things he's done. scum removing himself from significant interactions? likely

VOTE: shinobi

[Marquis]

I feel like you've been trying to push a case on me without actually reading any of my posts. It's annoying.

just for the record, do you think he's town or scum for it? sorry if i just didn't catch it earlier, but there seems to be a lot of annoyance over his actions without much indication of reads on him (from you and some others, including tso)

personally i'm coming around to thinking it's a lazy town stubborn push. it's been putting dragon more and more into the crosshairs for a lynch lately so i would think he or someone on his team would have had him stop by now if scum.

leaving for real now i think

[Marquis]

i'm trying to get her to separate the annoyance from the scumread for both herself and my own understanding.

i want to know what she thinks is happening from scum apart from a stubborn push on her

[Marquis]

yeah i def think he's town, bbl

[Marquis]

yeah 4456-7 and his response to me voting him are super gross

let's go shinobi wagon :thumbsup:

[Marquis]

"Hey, can you elaborate on your vote?"

lol bs on that, all you did was threaten me with a past game where i got lynched over you, plus i already elaborated in my original vote and i'm not ashamed to admit your posting after my vote is only strengthening my fortitude and confidence here

so don't pretend like you're innocent. the difference here is this game i'm town, and even if i lose this 1v1 i'm totally ready to have, it's not the end of the world now. i'll be on the record as having started a wagon on scum and died for it in the end

[Marquis]

UNVOTE:

I've been in a "fuck my reads" mood since the FA_Q2 flip, and up until now I've tried not to care about people scumreading me but now it's "fuck my reads and fuck this game".

I don't know what's up. This game seems to have a heavy split between significantly experienced players and not very experienced at all, and how the flips have gone this game signify to me that the scum is hiding in the experienced pool.

Shinobi right now I'm still not liking at all, but I'm willing to admit that my approach to that was flawed so any response he has to me would naturally incense me in return. I just... I really have no idea anymore. I feel like I'm sabotaging my own reads at the very least. Ignoring again for now.

Then it comes to the main thing I'm used to TSO-scum doing, which is pushing back on people when they start scumreading him and pushing for their lynch, and that's a part of what I see him doing here. Not to mention that post above about my meta sounds like bullshit because he knows when I'm actually scum I'm comfortable as fuck, and when I'm town that's when I have no idea what's going on and I just feel weak and unsure of everything. And I also feel like his sudden attack on me, after mostly letting my insecurity regarding FA_Q2 slide yesterday, is part of him taking advantage of how uncomfortable and unsure I am here, not only about my reads but about how I'm starting to feel about how I'm perceived.

VOTE: TSO

As of this post the only reads I'm sure of are townreads on Silverwolf and goodmorning. I don't even know what I saw as town in dragonspawn earlier but right now that's back to null because I'm afraid I've gotten into the habit of townreading scum for doing stupid things lately.

I'll be back later, I need to take a breath.

[Marquis]

i don't care what you have to say about me knowing or not knowing your scum game, because i already know i'm not 100% on that

the real issue i have is you having multiple experiences with both my town and scum games, and then somehow having the audacity to say my towngame isn't opaque and by definition open and easy to see- and that's a totally bullshit misrepresentation.

i don't even care how it looks that i'm arguing my town game sucks, but you should know this and know how easy it was for me to act natural and get you to townread me when i was scum. so right now, especially after letting me slide yesterday then only coming at me now when i've started to express a stronger scumread on you, i want you dead. given how the rest of this game seems to blindly trust you for some reason, it looks like i'm going to flip first. but i really don't give a damn anymore because this is all bullshit and if it takes my mislynch for you to finally flip too, then, well, that's fucking great.

as you said, we only need one scumflip to finally open this game up. i agree, and i want you lynched.

[Marquis]

@ tso

[Marquis]

I'm sorry, Shinobi, we're not having another day where we hem and we haw and Marquis is "indecisive", tells us he's paranoid of me, and we lynch dragonspawn in a deadline panic.

that was not a fucking deadline panic

there was a week left and everyone was just sick of everything

and you even liked my fa_q2 case, brought up points to back it up, and advocated his lynch for the whole rest of the day

so much bullshit this game. you remind me of that one news story about the guy who pooped on 19 cars

[Marquis]

Quite frankly I'm feeling burnt out tonight. I thought about subbing out but I don't want to be a dick to ika and don't like backing down from my commitments.

If you guys want to lynch me I understand. But I'm genuinely am town.

preach this is me

i feel like you're lynchbait right now and slightly leaning toward it being specifically mislynch bait but not by much.

i want to resort reads brb

[Marquis]

Marquis

SilverWolf
goodmorning

dragonspawn
Kitz

Cheetory6
Ozgin
elusive

Shinobi

Aeronaut

T S O

---

conftown, town, nulltown, null, in flux/idk, nullscum, and scum.

cheetory and ozgin moved down because any content from them as of late has been nonexistent, unmemorable or just plain blah imo.

still no idea what to think of elusive. she's still here, right? idr

going back up to kitz, i'm nervous about that one. a lot of the plans and ideas she proposes don't make sense or are just plain wrong/bad, but. part of me thinks i might have just put her there to make myself feel better about finding townreads, but i'm feeling okay with it for now so not changing.

i've liked shinobi's recent backtrack regarding me, but i'm not sure how much of it is due to my own vanity. him saying me/him/tso are all town though is something that pinged because i disagree with it vehemently, but that's not really making me scumread him as much as just making me feel grossed out by it.

still don't like aero's earlier opportunism. haven't felt many thing noteworthy from him today, though. this read probably also could go under "idk", like shinobi, and probably elusive too. eh.

and tso is scum. apart from his overaggressive omgus and complete misrepresentation of my meta which he should well know by now, i actually cannot see a scenario where he's been a townread/trusted as a voice of reason amid the vf/abr/math insanity for this long and is alive and town.

[Marquis]

actually i forgot about what happened earlier, yeah elusive is town

[Marquis]

busy week, will post sometime tomorrow

[Marquis]

i'm really not in the mood to get into a fight or shouting match or huge argument which is what i think is probably going to happen but i still think tso is scum and gm is town and shinobi might be tso's partner for the stance he's taken on the two of us. it seems really really fencesitty.

[Marquis]

oh no! my town game is suboptimal and realistic! i am scum!

i just see a lot of you criticizing the quality of my read justification instead of pointing out anything actually alignment-indicative and i'm just like. eh ok.

i already know i suck at explaining myself. i don't have as much of an emotional commitment to this game as i've had in other probably because i only replaced in yesterday so i know i really should care about trying not to get mislynched by my top scumread. but meh. i'm burned out already

later

[Marquis]

still think tso's scumgame is mostly aggro.

i don't really have much to say and i sorted reads out earlier. a lot of mine are gut particularly the gm townread.

shinobi, the problem i have with you is the specific stance you took toward me and tso- "i think we're all town paranoid of each other"- with a big part of that being how you inserted yourself into it. it pings really strongly just because it feels like you were trying to simultaneously half-heartedly calm things down, maybe as tso's partner, but also put yourself in a town statement when you didn't really have a place in it. i'm not really that paranoid of you, but naturally really paranoid of tso (and this time i think i'm right about it considering how his response to my suspicion of him isn't something i can as easily see from town!tso as i can from scum!tso)

[Marquis]

I disagree. I still think some of the louder/more active people, mainly TSO, are scum and kicking them out of the driver's seat and finally getting that scumflip will help with apathy. I'm pretty sure he's scum that's been controlling the game for a while and just

I'm mostly just sitting back because I hate arguing against people I think are scum. Well and arguing in general against people like TSO. I feel like I'm going to get drowned out no matter what so I'm just sitting here wanting him to flip scum already.

[Marquis]

First is an added bonus, second is a misrep- pretty sure I've already said it's not that you thought FA_Q2 was scum, it's how you acted toward the lynch so aggressively without second-guessing once there was support for it in the form of my case. Judging from the 100 or so posts prior to that in your ISO, I see no mention of a scumread or any thoughts on FA_Q2, and a general lack of anything other than talking about ABR/Math, brushing off people scumreading you, and I think there was a post about you offering to lynch easy low content targets gm or Aero (I also noticed you gave gm "townpoints" for something I don't get before that so I'm a bit curious as to how and why things have changed there)

The main, core thing is a gut+meta read that you absolutely would not have attacked me like this if you were town. You know the caliber of my town game versus my scum game, and this feels almost exactly like the same way you shut me down and lynched me when my main scumread was you in N's game (as Cho). But of course the rest of town here who mostly don't know me and I suspect are newish or like to do things "by the book" won't really take that as reasoning. Which is fair enough.

All of your posts are also just attacking me for "not having an argument" and repeating things along the lines of "you're going to flip and you're going to flip red!!!" and at this stage I'd expect some sort of...

something

, really, that approaches the situation with a clear mindset that you're town. Like "I'm town and you're wrong" is simple enough but I don't remember seeing anything major like that that asserts your own alignment as least a small part of your responses. It's all defense through offense, which is to be expected from scum, or at the very least someone like you.

atm you just look like scum who's really pissed off at people agreeing with me for what you think are bullshit reasons because "gdi I've been so town I'm going to get caught by these idiots for shitty reasons" and I'm kind of loling at it tbh because I don't really care enough about this game to attempt to try and word my read in a way everyone can understand. I mean I already know I suck as town, particularly when it comes to articulating my thoughts on a strong read. I'd rather not be proved right on that again.

[Marquis]

Subject: Suburban Warfare - GAME OVER

The Cataldi Mafia [chamber, Shinobi, Marquis, and Bicephalous Bob] WIN THE GAME!

[Marquis]

gm i really want this thing between me and tso to end because if neither of us dies soon and i have to go through a day 6 with this same aching burning desire for his flip i won't be able to withstand it. i hate the whole idea of declaring a gladiator-esque 1v1 but i can't think of any other way to describe how confident and bloodthirsty i am for tso's scumflip.

everyone choose now. me or tso. please.

even a vote for me is a step closer to a tso lynch eventually. i just don't want to have to sit back and go through this any longer much less another day without his flip.

[Marquis]

god how i wish i was scum this game because then tso's characterization of me would be something i'd so enjoy doing

i'll be back later today. tso, i want a fullclaim. stop beating around the bush and trying to be coy with it, because if you're actually town at this point scum are probably the only ones who know what you're constantly alluding to

[Marquis]

bulletproof vig

or bulletproof sk

hmmm

[Marquis]

I don't get it - either this is a scum power, or someone physically deleted the post.

fucking lol

is this the part where the rest of us jump on and start speculating obviously non-normal roles to take advantage of the newbies' repeatedly mentioned paranoia of them?

pedit you claimed scum tried to shoot you night 3 or something didn't you?

tso is sk imo. pisskop kill if it's his does feel a bit set up through the iso

[Marquis]

what crumbs you left. If any.

i've found in my experience lately scum is just as likely to crumb fakeclaims early as town is to crumb realclaims

not to mention the quintessential serial killer fakeclaim is vig, and is often decided upon from the start

[Marquis]

I claimed the Doctor was on me, I never claimed Bulletproof.

lmao

"You have been protected by the Doctor."

"You have lost your Bulletproof vest/shot."

which of those actually appears in normal games now

[Marquis]

Mafia, SK, and Vig = 3 total possible KpN.
Mafia and SK = 2 total possible KpN.

Pisskop - Maifa Non-consecutive Roleblocker killed night 1
Boonskiies - Town Non-consecutive Doctor killed night 1

Ellie - Town deputy turned cop killed night 2

Mathblade - Town vengeful killed night 3

Nobody Special town Non-consecutive Doctor killed night 4

I see nothing TSO would have to be afraid of in a vig fakeclaim.

Re: the bulletproof and doctor comments, I thought TSO was outright claiming BP, and bulletproof vig makes no sense compared to bulletproof sk. Then he corrected that saying "doctor was on me", which didn't make sense because you shouldn't be informed if a doctor protects you. Rather, you're often informed if you lose a bulletproof shot, and it makes more sense that TSO thinks/is claiming he was shot n3 because he's bulletproof sk (a combination of role + modifier that's practically standard for the role by now).

And a bunch of town power has already flipped. I don't believe a vig exists.

I also don't believe TSO is so confident in his reads after lynching abr, vigging mathblade and restlessly lynching fa_q2 that he can legitimately believe in a scumread on me this hard, much less keep talking about associatives between me and gm alongside that that are contingent on me flipping scum (and because I have to say it even though it should be obvious by now, I won't).

[Marquis]

Cop healed

what

[Marquis]

lmfao

i'm ok with dying if there's absolutely no other option sure

but there is one here and why would i pass up on 1) not having yet another mislynch 2) lynching scum 3) gaining towncred for lynching scum 4) the chance to get nightkilled instead of lynched 5) anything other than the uncertainty that people won't just forget about you once i'm out of the game

[Marquis]

Cop healed

what

Vikingfan = Cop, claimed RB'd and Healed.

oh my god what

that's not normal what the fuck

[Marquis]

i'm going to do a dive.

nobody gets lynched until we have everyone back here and commenting on this claim. i fucking mean it

[Marquis]

lol

[Marquis]

And, in case people don't remember this - Wake hammered the town fucking cop d2.

See, things like this make me think you're either stupid or Scum, and I know you're not stupid.

this is pretty much my entire stance on the last two pages and tso in general regarding me

[Marquis]

And a lot of you don't have that requisite experience yet to know when you're being manipulated, and although I can tell you that you're being manipulated, I know that when you haven't felt it before it's just not as real. I know it because I was in games where I got manipulated too and the only one really seeing it was Nacho and even though I read his posts and did my best to understand, I just didn't get it.

And that's what's worrying me - that people like Marquis, who seem genuine, are going to be able to manipulate you when I'm gone. I have one day left. I need this lynch. And I need votes for it.

YOU CANNOT BE FUCKING SERIOUS

oh my god tso this is so fucking low of you

[Marquis]

MAYBE I "SEEM GENUINE" BECAUSE I'M FUCKING TOWN

[Marquis]

i cannot believe you have the audacity to suggest I'M the one being manipulative here, when you've been the one pulling shit like taking advantage of the newbies' tendency to think non-normal roles are possible with your post-deleting role comments, trying to use wake hammering a flipped cop (presenting it as some sort of unholy scum thing, when YOU were on that wagon too, and it's not like the majority of town didn't support it seeing as it was a lynch based on a cop counterclaim) as a reason to get wolf to get sucked back into her paranoia of wake's slot, and on and fucking on.

i

i cannot believe you right now. like what the fuck

[Marquis]

votes have been flying around all over the place today and tso suggesting we're almost at 5-4 lylo and that if i was scum we'd have even gotten to the point where i could be bussed, when i'd probably have had the chance to end this day much earlier by not even going for a tso lynch, pushing some easy bullshit dragon or gm lynch instead, and just nightkilling him??? bitch please. dumb as fuck

i'm vt, or "citizen". my final switch back to fa_q2 yesterday was me being dumb and thinking fa_q2's "vt" claim was fake due to him being scum being forgetful/unaware of the actual normal town role. but then even i instinctively wrote out vt instead of citizen typing this up right now so yeah. that was dumb

if you guys actually fucking believe tso and lynch me today, i don't want there to be any reason for tso to be able to gloat in postgame and the wiki about having the shittiest claim and almost getting lynched and town believing him anyway letting him grab another scum win hahaha i fooled all u plebs!!! like no. i am not here for that and i have the sickest grossest feeling from the recent tone toward tso (wolfy this is mainly you) that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting gm or lynching her tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite being his reads or cases (marquis-gm associatives despite me being obvtown and probably going to be proven flipped town) proved wrong time and time again it's tso.

[Marquis]

Wait a minute, I think someone deleted one of my posts or something, I can't see it either.

Fuck.

I don't even have the power to delete my own posts, it wasn't me.

I don't get it - either this is a scum power, or someone physically deleted the post.

oh come on don't pretend you don't remember, you were fucking hamming it up

[Marquis]

there has been ONE death per night EVERY SINGLE NIGHT except for the first night, when there were two.

as for vikingfan claiming protection, i looked into ika's past games and he does have a history of telling people if they were successfully prevented from dying (which shouldn't happen in a normal game but whatever). so i guess that's 3 kills n1 then

oh my god

what the fuck

elusive didn't claim vig either? i thought she was claiming vig the whole time wtf...

wtf

[Marquis]

i don't get why if viking got protection and was informed, why you didn't claim you were informed too if you think you were targeted n3

[Marquis]

literally EVERYTHING about your play and attack screams scum to me but i have no idea how the even nights can be explained if you're sk...

wtf. wtf. wtf tfffff

[Marquis]

i need a break.

[Marquis]

has everyone checked in yet?

i keep thinking there's got to be SOMEONE who hasn't been here to confirm vig or not

[Marquis]

but if tso is the vig and there really were three kills night 1, where did they all go after that?...

ugh...

[Marquis]

kitz, claim.

[Marquis]

kitz, claim.

[Marquis]

please don't tell me you're talking about what i already talked about and trying to spin it into something of your own

[Marquis]

jfc come

on

[Marquis]

i'm going to make it clear that nobody's benefiting from you holding back whatever it is you're practically giggling about over there

[Marquis]

but there is precedence for ika telling protected players that they were saved, and vikingfan's an older player so he likely didn't fake it based off of that, not to mention he was town anyway. so that still puts 3 kills n1 which i still don't get at all... we had doctors dying early iirc so 2-1-1-1-1 with +1 to n1, just didn't succeed, is still wtf...

[Marquis]

i have no idea what to think of tso slot anymore.

[Marquis]

he's being replaced and nothing is going to happen until i get confirmation there. you don't just get to push through this while skipping that.

[Marquis]

oh please, quit it with the fearmongering. ozgin being replaced at this point in the day means deadline's paused, and if ika hasn't done that yet me

reminding him to pause the deadline now should

. not to mention he hasn't posted the deadline since day start so assuming i know ika enough it's more of a guideline to him anyway

[Marquis]

all i really have to say is that i'm not scum and i keep thinking there has to be a vig that hasn't claimed because tso being town is so unbelievable rn.

i can kind of understand keeping quiet to live and shoot tso tonight, but doing so gets my mislynch instead of lynching tso and potentially shooting another scum. so i'm pretty much just wanting a vig to claim and make this all so much easier to deal with.

ika not extending the deadline makes me think odds are since there's likely no hidden vig claim despite how scummy tso is i'm probably getting lynched.

and i think i'm getting pretty tired of fighting it. yes i'm town, and i really really think i'm obvtown. but people have been siding with tso's reads and "logic" due to the claim alone and that bothers me. and i feel like part of that if tso is actually town vig is that some people are like... the scum in the background bolstering his ego here to eat an easy mislynch on me and then a probably bad gm shot from the vig while shooting tso themselves.

in other words my biggest fear here is me/tso/gm are town and it's like scum are egging us on to murder each other ourselves whether by mislynch or vig. if that's the case i'd probably look at aeronaut or dragonspawn, mostly the former. thought it might have been shinobi but recent posting's made me think town on him again. also been toying with the idea that kitz can't really be this dumb as town either. but ugh

in a different scenario regarding gm too though i remember in quickness mafia being a scum neighborizer, where i recruited people i thought i could easily manipulate and then peppered my hood with town-sounding commentary. whoever it was in the hood, ozgin and wolf iirc, needs to describe as clearly as possible what gm said that's so town. because now i'm not sure if the consensus townreads on her were formed on a bad basis

[Marquis]

tso if you're town, you don't get to blame my own mislynch on me. i've seen how it works when you get into an unstoppable tunnel (bulba's light/dark game) and if that's the case you can just keep any shittalking in the dead thread to your own play.

[Marquis]

pagetop:

i am calling for a vig to claim if you have not yet. not claiming right now is anti-town and whatever reasons you have for not doing so, you will not be believed unless you claim before shit with tso and me gets any further.

[Marquis]

Hey, Marquis, how sure are you on Aero-scum?

if there's no vig claim i'm probably going to have to conclude you're telling the truth. because no matter how hard i've looked for another solution i can't see one especially in light of the 3 n1 kills and really fucking weird pattern.

and then i'll vote aero, i think.

[Marquis]

oh it's been fun all right. i replaced into what was essentially a trigger mislynch slot on a 4 AM whim and managed to prevent it, at least until now.

how much of that was my ability to be obvtown and how much was just scum backing off of me because my scumreads sucked ass, i don't know yet but i figure seeing spoilers is going to kill me.

but it's been fun, if a little infuriating with every bullshit twist and turn.

[Marquis]

also regarding aeronaut's wanting to control tso's shot, i don't really think aero's town but i thought tso overreacted a lot. it's not like you've never heard of leashing an SK before.

whether you're vig or SK, we want to make sure you're shooting in the interest of town, with the understanding that anything to the contrary essentially loses you the game with a punitive lynch if you're the latter.

[Marquis]

GM neighborized me. What do you want to know about it specifically?

why is she town? i want to know specifically what she did, instead of just reading you guys saying "oh yeah she's town"

right now i still think you're town at least and i trust you more than aero. if there's scum in your hood, it's either aero only or aero and gm.

this is an example of me being a scum neighborizer, neighborizing and brainwashing townies so i could pull out a win for my team. and it's something along those lines i'm worried about.

[Marquis]

i see posts like that and then i think of tso's post about scum not bussing me and i just feel like shit "is it true mother? why aren't the scumz voting me" "because you're shit and your reads have been shit" and then i feel even shittier.

[Marquis]

UNVOTE:

I'm just going to go ahead and assume no vig claim! Yay!

:/

VOTE: Aeronaut

[Marquis]

can we not have him at l-1

also if there's no other vig claim i think tso is probably town after all, and i already explained but i feel like dragon's been backing up his ego and you're my secondary scumread and just

eh

i was townreading dragon earlier but i might be wrong on it. i think shinobi is town tho

[Marquis]

I WANT DRAGON DEAD SO MUCH RIGHT NOW BUT IF I VOTE HIM TSO'S GOING TO DUMBTUNNEL ME AGAIN

[Marquis]

No, dragon's town; trust yourself, TSO.

Vote remains. Marquis, your statement is 100% true. I don't think you'd bus Aero, and I think he's scum. That's what's stopping me from voting you.

and i know you're probably going to kill me if i don't get lynched. whatever. as long as me leaving this game is a result of something totally out of my hands that's fine.

the only reason i am taking you as town right now is that non-consec vig with no counterclaim is the simplest solution to a huge nk result problem. i don't see maf/ww/sk or maf/sk/sk as likely given we'd probably have some crosskills or lynches by now if it wasn't singleball or maf/sk/vig.

if you really are scum your position this whole day has committed you to killing me which is the suboptimal choice for you anyway so that's good. if you're town vig and shooting me i'm okay with that too; i have no control over that so it's not as bad as getting mislynched.

all it is is that i just think you're being really dumb with your ego if town. i already know you're as wrong as can be about me. and i think dragon is scum more than aero as of this page, but aero is by far a better lynch imo than shinobi or myself.

[Marquis]

with deadline coming up soon and no extension, we need to consolidate votes, get them off the vanity wagons. not sure of actual timing but sometime this page or the next.

[Marquis]

lynching me is bad because when i flip town, if my setup spec was wrong and tso's scum, my townflip gives him free room to potentially "doubt" his reads and shoot whoever he wants in scum interests rather than town

lynching aero, whether he flips scum or not, limits his shot choices to me, and dragon hopefully. if he shoots anywhere else it's a scumclaim and he should be lynched.

[Marquis]

i completely forgot cheetory was even part of this game :/

had a townread on him earlier but it moved to null and now completely eroded. would advocate a lynch or vig there.

[Marquis]

right now i'm thinking aero is the red herring distracting from my own red herring-ness. this wagon was too easy. but tso's going to get my mislynch if i don't kiss his ass here, and i still kinda think shinobi's town.

dragon, cheetory, kitz and maybe maybe aero - all scum?

[Marquis]

It's likely to be goodmorning, Kitz or elusive.

elusive is unlikely to be a Town BP anyway what with the whole '2 Docs' thing.

I don't know why I even bother.

Oh.

Inactive BP SK makes a whole lot of sense now.

[Marquis]

...it's a joke, isn't it

[Marquis]

aero if you're town pls drop it and restate your reads as of this page

[Marquis]

Idunno, I'd joke after my hammer.

once upon a time this was me

[Marquis]

ok i think dragon is town, and the reasons aren't as shallow as "he voted aero". gm, shinobi too.

i think elusive is sk. then kitz and maybe cheetory for mafia.

5505 should not be treated as an offhand comment. wolf could be mafia; my earlier townread on her makes me not want to consider it but i'll look more into her meta later. iirc her towngame is pretty emotional. we'll see.

[Marquis]

and a lot of convincing by SilverWolf in the hood

wait i thought gm said your hood was only open one day??

[Marquis]

oh

it was a stretch :(

pedit we have three n1 kills proven. there is moderator precedence to back up viking's protected claim

[Marquis]

i'm dying tonight no matter what tso is \o/

shoot kitz/cheet

[Marquis]

eh

i'm not that opposed to being shot tbh

done with trying to figure this shit out so having spoilers sooner rather than later would be great

[Marquis]

my first thought was some sort of jailkeep

also this spec is ridiculous

VOTE: elusive

only thing i'm doing today

bye

[Marquis]

there's really no point to the spec until we get a good flip

and a bulletproof scum is the best place to start

[Marquis]

i think it's really weird and bad to assume a convoluted bulletproof scum neighborizer rather than a simple "tso was roleblocked/jailkept as expected" or some sort of solution like that

i still kind of think gm is town but again elusive's role doesn't make sense with the flipped town protectives we have so far + tso

it makes a lot more sense as sk vs. maf/vig or maf vs. sk/vig

and now i really do have to go so! ttyl <3

[Marquis]

with the town roles we know of i would be surprised if mafia didn't have a second manipulative role besides the nonconsec rb

[Marquis]

Marquis, you seem to be trying to build up a history of projecting your own scum\3p role on me. I mean we just finished out a game where you tried this same gambit and it didn't work there either, hun.

I'll ISO Aeronaut later tonight since I'm doubting the scumfucks would be capable of it.

VOTE: Marquis

like i would try the same thing twice

and don't act like my role is just as likely to be sk as yours or that my play has come anywhere near as scummy or just plain anti-town as your, because that's pretty much the opposite of what's been going on here

[Marquis]

okay go ahead and focus on that while we lynch you

i'm busy atm so i won't respond for a while anyway

pedit @ elusive

[Marquis]

Being a fucking bitch will get you nowhere with me and my vote stays.

[Marquis]

i won't be bothered to take anything you say further into account because with your attitude so far and choice to take advantage of my previously expressed feelings about my play in this game and others, your flip will be delightful for this game regardless of what color it is.

and like tso said, a scumlynch and no kill puts us in a decent position. if you're a town bulletproof and we lynch you, still fine by me, because there's no way scum are wasting shots on you.

[Marquis]

i think i've been holding this back since doa. your play there was vile too and it was only because i was scum that i didn't push harder for your lynch throughout the first 3-4 days.

[Marquis]

elu if you think asking about your attitude in a finished game is going to make me change my mind

[Marquis]

oh, that's what it is. kitz is reminding me of titus right now.

kinda want to lynch it after this one.

[Marquis]

for the record, yes, i see the points and am beginning to be open to the idea of gm-scum.

but that doesn't matter right now because elusive's role as she claimed it then and now was and is highly unlikely to be town when taking into account the flipped town protectives, the hints do fit in line with a bulletproof sk preparing to potentially claim vig, and it is a highly probable serial killer modifier simply because of math being a flipped town killing role and tso being another likely town killing role - and we know an sk most likely exists because of the 3 kill attempts on night 1.

[Marquis]

i have priorities and i don't much care for the gm distraction at the moment. the elusive wagon

needs

to go through.

[Marquis]

hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng

normalcy

it's getting to a point where i can't tell the intentional extras from the unintentional

[Marquis]

night 1, 3 kill attempts are nearly confirmed because 2 deaths + vikingfan is an older player w/out knowledge of ika who flipped town cop and claimed mod-informed of protection (which there is precedence for in ika's games)

[Marquis]

try marquis

[Marquis]

i was going to say i could see gm as scum jailkeeper who blocked tso to live but then neighborizer claim not to mention targeting tso with a kill AND jking him is dumb af

also kitz the neighborizer itself is pretty dumb to doubt exists. whether the role as gm is/is using it is town or scum is the main issue

[Marquis]

VOTE: cheetory

[Marquis]

VOTE: cheetory

i forgot cheetory existed and i hate my reads this game so far and i need to focus more on my townreads like i used to but this is the start of my realignment and it's scum and it dies today pls

[Marquis]

post later, cheet still probscum

[Marquis]

after class

[Marquis]

kind of been preoccupied with things lately but i really think cheetory is scum because vague meta, what at least felt like lurking throughout the shift onto the aeroscum wagon, etc etc

[Marquis]

I'm sorry guys. Really not feeling that great about Mafia right now. But I know ika's had a hard time finding replacements, so...

Quick comment here is that I'm seeing a distinct difference in Cheet's activity between here and here, and I think iirc his lurking around the time of when the wagon shifted to Aero is more indicative of a partner not knowing how to come in and approach the situation than uninvested town. There was a lot going on there to have genuine town opinions on. He's not completely inactive sitewide as far as I know.

But then I could be wrong about this entirely. That seems to have happened a lot lately.

Not sure if it's better than Ozgin; the more I see the House comments, the more they stick in my mind. But the Cheet lynch is what I want most.

[Marquis]

Only townreads I have as of now are SW/GC (town slot), TSO (role only), and dragon (select old and most recent behavior).

[Marquis]

what the fuck is going on

why the fuck is there a vig counterclaim now when we could have lynched the fuck out of tso earlier

what the fuck

[Marquis]

i understand absolutely 0.000000000000000000000000% about how the rest of town chose to play this game.

what the fuck.

[Marquis]

i legit do not care who wins anymore

i'm so done with mafia

[Marquis]

VOTE: tso

i also don't believe the convenient drop in with 2 days left on the initial v/la.

and i don't care if i'm wrong anymore because there was too much earlier suggesting i was right. the only thing that made tso town was the lack of a cc, and i'm willing to believe sw was just withholding due to... being sw.

[Marquis]

i can see everything that happened last night as a result of tso being jailkept or whatever.

[Marquis]

i thought we agreed you were going to take the blame for this

i don't need any more, i already know i suck as town

[Marquis]

UNVOTE:

fuck mafia i hate everything

[Marquis]

i thought we agreed you were going to take the blame for this

i don't need any more, i already know i suck as town

Wallow in self-pity if you want, but stop fucking me for it. I have shot scum n1, and almost singlehandedly lynched scum on d5. I am the only reason Town is even in this game anymore. Now I'm being lynched on the most fucking nonsensical counterclaim ever.

I mean, he literally looked at elusive, saw 3-shot had flipped, and decided to claim it.

ok. you're great at killing scum.

but your thought process is sk.

VOTE: tso

i'm out, don't care for tso anymore. bye.

[Marquis]

cool

as i've said your thought process this game when being scumread has always been not from the viewpoint of town but from the viewpoint of scum/sk who's pissed that he's going to get lynched/lose for what he sees as unfair bullshit. everything about scumreading you is unfair to you, it's never just simply wrong.

[Marquis]

VOTE: GC

this is probably going to be a mislynch though isn't it.

scum please shoot tso.

[Marquis]

that i believe, and is easily confirmable. it's near impossible that those two are groupscum together too. ozgin's play when tso claim was still being dealt with makes a shit ton of sense too now.

VOTE: tso

hi gm. why would we not lynch sk today?

[Marquis]

Ozgin is the 3-shot vig. His discussion in the PT looks super genuine, and I believe him 100%.

I claimed so scum would kill me tonight so I can get out of this game. And so you lot wouldn't lynch Ozgin today.

But I'm not going to suffer a mislynch because town lynches a counter-claimer WHO HAS NO REASON TO FAKE COUNTERCLAIM.

But then why didn't Ozzie claim?
Now I really suspect the two of you lel.

Vote stays.

you literally quoted it yourself

[Marquis]

kitz for mafia, tso for sk

someone else mafia

[Marquis]

Ugh.

You're probably right.

But I want SK gone for the potential kill reduction. I don't think either of Ozgin/GC are Mafia, nor TSO. But the SK is in there, and I don't think it's GC who painted a target on his back for Ozgin, and right now I like my assessment of TSO's mindset enough to think he's SK over Ozgin. Especially with the earlier 3-shot mention destroying TSO's case on that.

[Marquis]

Stop acting like I said it's the main reason. The convenient return was a small, small part of the things I disliked. I'm not that dumb as to think it's actually valid.

And neither did I say "that's unfair" was your defense, so that's another strawman on your part. (You should probably stop using them.)

I've said "that's unfair" is what your thoughts driving your responses to people thinking you're scum seem to be based on - in other words, I've never seen a hint of you coming from a mindset where you know you're town and that the people saying you're scum/sk are wrong. Your attacks and your irritation have always been primarily directed at what you perceive as stupid reasons for you to get caught (similar to a typical scum irritation with "caught for the wrong reasons"), not at the idea of you being scum itself.

[Marquis]

Sorry, too apathetic to.

I know I'm undercutting my own read here but who gives a fuck anymore. I'm only here because it's day fucking 6 and I wouldn't wish replacing into this mess as town on anyone else.

[Marquis]

Oh, and also because as much as I hate myself and my play right now, I still believe my presence is needed lest GC/Ozgin somehow get lynched over TSO today.

[Marquis]

Ozgin claims to have shot you but not successfully.

You also claim to have shot gm but not successfully.

The only manipulative role that's flipped out of 10 is a scum non-consecutive RB.

You full well know what the only logical SK power is in a game with a town vig, town vengeful, scumkill, and a load of other town PRs.

I think you know where I'm going with this, and probably already saw where I went with it earlier. Not really in the mood to have to spell it out.

[Marquis]

Ozgin is the 3-shot vig. His discussion in the PT looks super genuine, and I believe him 100%.

I claimed so scum would kill me tonight so I can get out of this game. And so you lot wouldn't lynch Ozgin today. But I'm not going to suffer a mislynch because town lynches a counter-claimer WHO HAS NO REASON TO FAKE COUNTERCLAIM.

I'm fake claiming but have no reason to fake claim.

Town claiming a PR to save a real neighbor/mason PR from getting shot over it is a common occurrence.

As scum, GC still had no reason to do that. There was not anywhere close to significant lynch pressure on his slot for him to chain himself to that as scum, or paint a NK target on his own back.

[Marquis]

Ozgin claims to have shot you but not successfully.

Forgive me, but I'd like him to explicitly state this so there's no get-out clause.

Sure. I assumed it was obvious with the quotes of SW chiding Ozgin to just ignore it because it'd be dealt with come tomorrow, but okay.

[Marquis]

You lot are really the worst town.

scum slip much?

Hey dragon, wishful thinking. And he's right anyway.

[Marquis]

Ozgin claims to have shot you but not successfully.

You also claim to have shot gm but not successfully.

Bizarrely, this would make TSO being JK'd the simplest option.

GC claimed, however, that elusive was N4 shot though who knows if that was true.

Last night was Night 5.

I actually think the most accurate option is that Mafia have a second Non-Consec RB and used it on TSO, who was saved from dying N5 by a BP vest (whether infinite or x-shot).

[Marquis]

I don't understand what you think is so complicated.

I see Mafia as having another manipulative role right now. Only one Mafia PR has flipped, which is a Non-Consecutive Roleblocker. It follows that with the Town Cop, Town Tracker, 2 Town Non-Consecutive Doctors, and so on, that Mafia not having another manipulative role would be horrible balance-wise. Given what we know of the setup and its tendency to use mirrored roles, Mafia having a second Non-Consecutive Roleblocker makes more sense than not.

And roleblocking TSO would have been optimal play for Mafia last night. I don't know whether they thought goodmorning or someone else was going to die or not, but assuming the below, killing TSO was likely not an option:

I see TSO as SK right now. This fits with how I view his reactions and the vigilante counterclaim. Additionally, most SKs have a bulletproof vest, whether X-shot or infinite. This fits with a point in the game where TSO was a good nightkill target for Mafia, but somehow the Mafia kill disappeared (most likely Night 3). It also fits with a point last night (Night 5) where, whether Ozgin is Vig or SK, he most likely tried to shoot TSO, but TSO didn't die.

[Marquis]

Additionally (I've said this before but), with there being a Town Vig (whoever it is), Town Vengeful, and Mafia kill, Serial Killer (whoever it is) very, very likely has a Bulletproof vest.

[Marquis]

Wasn't pssicop the role blocker or do you think we have a second one?

A Town Cop that can (at the least) investigate for Mafia or not Mafia, usable every night.

A Town Deputy that gains the same Mafia investigation powers, usable every night.

A Town Cop that can potentially track Mafia to the kill, usable every night.

2 Town Doctors that can each prevent a Mafia kill from going through, usable every other night.

A Town Vigilante, either Non-Consecutive or 3-Shot, but still a major risk.

A Town Commuter, while I'm not sure if ika would allow to be roleblocked, still a potential reason for Mafia's kill to not resolve.

If you look at all of this from a Normal Reviewer or setup design perspective, ignoring the suboptimal play of several of these slots in the game itself, and even allow yourself to take the idea of 2 town non-consecs and 2 mafia non-consecs into account...

...then yeah, as I've said multiple times now: I do believe there's another one.

[Marquis]

This setup is anything but simple.

2 Town Non-Consecutive Doctors vs. 2 Mafia Non-Consecutive Roleblockers.

Seems legit knowing ika. And even if it's not exactly that, I highly doubt Mafia don't have another manipulative (rb/jk) role.

[Marquis]

dragon and kitz both seem to be fighting for the role of token dumbtown

i wonder who's going to win

and who's just scum

[Marquis]

you all make me want to scream

every single one of you

i think the only thing i agree with this page is kitz's first paragraph and that's saying something

[Marquis]

and by "the only thing i agree with" take that to mean "the only thing that's stopped me from flinging my phone against the wall"

[Marquis]

bulletproof sk is incredibly common to the point where it's practically standard here.

[Marquis]

Forgive me, but I'd like him to explicitly state this so there's no get-out clause.

[Marquis]

mobile but ozgin replaced in less than a rl-day before D1 ended

of fucking course a random shot would make sense

[Marquis]

Why didn't you shoot ABR, Math, NJ, FA?

didnt we just have an argument where we said shooting abr/math/whoever was a scum move??

[Marquis]

and as i've said before a bp tso solves certain crucial weird-kill-resolution nights, n3 and n5 among potential others

[Marquis]

Why couldn't elusive have been the scumkill N3, for instance? Makes an equal amount of sense.

i was watching this game every so often and to an outsider's perspective tso was a lone voice of reason / looked like a "normal person" caught up in a bunch of shit

i don't find this likely

And, again, me not being dead N5 only makes sense if TSO was in some way blocked.

which i'm not arguing didn't happen??? i'm not calling you bulletproof or anything

whether you're mafia or not, from mafia's perspective blocking who they think is a non-consecutive vig on the night they can kill, especially when it wasn't clear going into night who he would shoot based on the aero flip, is the most likely play

and also if you're not mafia i don't doubt that whoever is mafia, based on what i've seen of play, would have thought that deeply about it either besides just "oh a claimed vig/pr oh let's block it"

[Marquis]

And how would TSO have been blocked if the mafia roleblocker is dead? Is it even remotely possible for there to be another RB in this game?

there's a storm of prs, including other killers, in the game.

mafia only having

one

roleblocker that they

can only use every other night

makes no sense.

[Marquis]

mafia

[Marquis]

Look at the big bad SK, bossing the town around like he's the fucking mayor lol.

The sheep follow a wolf in sheep's clothing here, man.

if tso is sk who do you think is vig

also gj taking advantage of my burning desire for any reason that tso could be scum

[Marquis]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Marquis]

[Marquis]

who the fuck is even alive now

[Marquis]

ika can you describe what tso's role specifically did? differences from normal sk?

Marquis
Green Crayons
dragonspawn

-----

goodmorning

-----

Shinobi
Kitz
Cheetory6

lynch below the first line

gm is in the middle because on one hand tso nk shenanigans and on the other hand her attitude yesterday and whenever we had that trusting tso argument synced a lot and felt pretty genuine

[Marquis]

hmmm

you're right tso i should probably delegate myself to sheep duty today. quit while i'm ahead

as much as i want to sheep gm here i want her to explain why kitz isn't just dumbtown. i'm personally leaning that as of late she's been overselling that facade but still. sell me on it

[Marquis]

Marquis is looking particularly scummy in light of his celebration.

let's just put you into a giant steel box.

and lock you inside.

so you'll be safe.

and quiet.

[Marquis]

@Marquis: It's based totally on associatives.

specifics

[Marquis]

fresh air fresh air i am drowning in it

[Marquis]

cheetory whenever you have trouble understanding my posts just try parsing them abnormally as you read. actual tip

actually don't care for specifics i can still just believe in this

VOTE: kitz

[Marquis]

also any sort of insinuation that i killed tso is incredibly stupid on any level considering how strongly i believed he was bulletproof. my fucked up ozgin defense doesn't change that because while i'm able to fake a townread on a scumbuddy i'm not capable of faking that and my setup spec (esp. wrt other players' roles) on both fronts

[Marquis]

oh i agree about 988. that's often kind of damning for inexperienced scum.

[Marquis]

I HAVE POSITIVE FEELINGS ABOUT THIS GAME FOR THE FIRST TIME IN FOREVER

[Marquis]

UNVOTE:

sheeping

but yeah good night

[Marquis]

cheetory whenever you have trouble understanding my posts just try parsing them abnormally as you read. actual tip

I don't even know what you're trying to say here and I'm still just being irked by me responding to you last day cycle and you ignoring me >:c

i can't tell if you're purposefully culling your posts of all genuineness or if you're actually just scum.

gm help.

[Marquis]

"genuineness" can be replaced with "believability" in that sentence for the same yet more pleasing effect

[Marquis]

okay you can be town after those three posts.

the majority of my suspicion was centered around how I thought you were the kind of player to purposefully avoid the game as scum in a bad position, and i've been trying to draw posts like that out of you, posts with a certain degree of town commitment and inquisitiveness. right now I'm especially liking the emotion here.

and now that you're a townread I can finally show concern over you scumreading me. and I know this post probably looks scummy af on the surface, but i'm literally only thinking you're town as of those posts, this instant. and i need to write it down here before i go to sleep for real. gnight

[Marquis]

VOTE: shinobi

and gm we need to touch up on this. I let this read fall to the wayside with the TSO focus, but now that I'm feeling much much much more confident about my old reads around then I'm thinking this and/or kitz could be it.

[Marquis]

oh

did boon claim doc n1

also i'm losing count of how many roles we have that fill up the non-explicitly-normal count of 2

i think elusive and tso's role take that up right now