Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[AutumnEvenings]

Hey everyone--I'm replacing Haut Boy and will be reading the thread right about now.

[AutumnEvenings]

Why was everyone getting so excited about playing with AutumnEvenings ?

*points to her avatar*

Duh

. :p

And any insinuations that X might be scum because Y died will without a doubt get a vote from me.

Well, get prepared to vote me then. I wouldn't really speculate over Night Zero kills, but I'm definitely of the opinion that night kills can often point to the killers themselves. I might keep it off the thread because of WIFOM, but if I feel strongly enough about it, you better believe I'm saying something. I'm not a fan of ignoring information. (Y'all need a :duel: emoticon.)

(And yes, I did get a bit distracted so I'm just starting now, and no, I promise I won't go through this and quote everything--that just jumped out at me so I felt the need to quarrel.)

[AutumnEvenings]

unvote

(not sure if HautBoy actually left a vote on anyone yet, but in case I forget)

Fos: Battlemage

for voting Guardian (post 46--sorry, I'm using a Mac right now and you totally can't right-click so I don't know how to link. It's tragic) over what was obviously a joke and then repeatedly arguing the point. Come on...

Any kill that scum makes is a good kill. Killing off strong townies is better. The fact that they didn't kill Glork doesn't mean anything.

What exactly is this supposed to mean? Why would you say killing off strong townies is better? This post was clearly written from the scum's POV. (Oops, I see HackerHuck picked up on this too. Still, it's worth mentioning, because...what the crap?) And his post #64...ugh, just ugh.

Fos: BeanbagBoy

.

FoS: Yougurt Bandit

for post 78... "he could be a serial killer but not enough evidence to vote"?? on page 4? In a large game which requires like 12038* votes to lynch?

Gah. Battlemage, what on earth are you doing? "Gee guys, I never get to be SK!" and then saying it makes sense to move to the largest bandwagon (post 96, still on Page Four, for crying out loud).

Actually, I have to cut this short, I'm really sorry. But I'll do more and better soon. :p

P.S. BattleMage, could you do me a favor and (1) only quote posts you're directly responding to and (2) put those quotes before your response? I find your style really confusing...

----
*just an estimate...it might be closer to 10, but still. :p

[AutumnEvenings]

Ok, you can all totally hate me right now, because I feel like such a jerk but...

I haven't finish the re-read yet and I'm about to go out for the evening. I swear up and down I'll finish it tonight (Mountain Time, which is, I believe, GMT-7 plus whatever daylight savings stuff is going on). And the good news is, I only work a half day tomorrow.

Anyway, I'm sorry and I promise I'll be better from here on out.

P.S. <3 to Glork, Jack, Johhan, and Yos. Playing with people I "know"--yay! And love to the mods too.

[AutumnEvenings]

Umm...still not nearly finished and I'm going to try to present large, organized posts instead of random thoughts, but I'm scared I'll forget this right now:

Glork--you unvoted BattleMage and said you were suspicious of how quickly his wagon had grown. How did you feel about the first wagon on Albert which reached 6 votes by post 56 (when N9V voted him), and how does that make you feel about the current Albert wagon? (It seems to be dying now but you placed the 7th vote (I believe--just going off vote-counts, so it could have been even later) and then got off in your last post.)

[AutumnEvenings]

Editt: that post was horribly unclear. *sigh*

There was an early game wagon on Albert which reached 6 votes. Glork, you said nothing about it at all. However, in post 105 (after the Albert bandwagon had kind of faded away), you unvoted BM because of the speed which his wagon had grown, which, unless I'm wrong, you started in post 63 and it grew to 6 in 100, which is roughly the same amount of posts as the Albert wagon had (because of the rules and such). So...basically, why unvote BM because of a quick wagon, but place the 7th vote on the second wagon on a guy who had already had a speedy wagon himself?

[AutumnEvenings]

Another quick post--Gaurdian, what the hell was going on with 176 ("YB is noob town"), followed by your hard-to-follow (and basically useless) PBPA in 178 (you listed YB as "scum??" several times and then said "I think YB has been pretty town of the four I was suspicious of on page 6"), and wrapped up with 181 ("Albert indeed looks like an ok play, as does YB.").

Could you please clarify to me what you were thinking of Yogurt Bandit at the time of these posts?

[AutumnEvenings]

Ok, I've read the game, then re-read it, then looked at some of you in isolation. I've taken extensive notes (I had to--I couldn't keep all y'all straight, especially with the amount of lukers/inactives/very low posters). But at this point I'm flat-out beat and composing proper posts would be beyond me. I have work in about 5 hours and must sleep, but I'll post the rest within 12 hours.

(and yes, I hate myself)

[AutumnEvenings]

Ok.

General Thoughts

(1) There is way, way, way too much lurking/inactivity going on in this game. Not counting the people who've been replaced, the following people need to post more (and with content please!!): Shteven, N9V, and Johhan. Also, MrBuddyLee and Jack, who have more posts but hardly any more content.

(2) There's way too much theory talk and not nearly enough actual game talk.

(3) I'm finding lots of people very hard to get a read on. Some of that is because of low posting, and some of it I just don't know why. This is going to be a difficult game for me, I think.

-------

The Albert Wagon

I didn't like the first one, I didn't like the second one either. It's a bit odd that two have sprung up and then vanished though. I don't like that he claimed at 7 votes (regardless of whether "claiming townie is scummy" or not, claiming instead of defeding yourself is bad play) but I wouldn't call it a scum-tell, just an annoyance. I think the most suspicious thing about him was his opening post (8) and then his next one (11). The weirdest thing was (8) because

while (supposedly) still wondering if the choices were in or randomized

, he called the scum "clever" because of the two kills. That he, in post 11, "decides" the nightkills were done "manually" just makes (8) even weirder.

But that's not why people are voting him, as I understand it. He's being voted for...umm...being wagony and wishy-washy? Which I could accept if more than half the players weren't doing the same exact thing.
----------------------

Which leads me to:

Glork

--darlin, you know I love you, but what the hell? The differences you have between BattleMage and Albert just baffle me. First was the wagon issue. I don't, by the way, accept your answer. I don't see how the first wagon was a non-issue...people were jumping on and giving (usually weak) reasons for doing so. And it happened fast and very soon. There's no sense in just ignoring it. More troubling is that you originally FoSed Albert in 114 (and elaborated in 117) because he decided to jump on the biggest wagon that wasn't him, rather than defending himself. Yes, that's lame and somewhat suspicious, but the troubling thing is,

BattleMage did the exact same thing

in post 96:

hmm, seems logical to move my vote to the scumbag with the largest wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Yogurtbandit

You didn't make any comment on that at all.

Glork, I want to know why you are treating these two players so differently. I'd also like to know why, in post 114, you made lists of people you'd vote, people who you think are pro-town-ish, and people who need to post more, but left out 5 players: me (well, HautBoy), BattleMage, MrBuddyLee,HackerHuck, and Guardian. I know I'm not related to you in anyway and you hadn't actually made any comments on me (I don't think), but you'd had lots of interaction with BM, MBL, and Guardian.

Very, very large

FoS: Glork

--------------
More in a bit--gonna eat. :p Also, if any of you are (evil!) Mac Users, I'll be your best friend forever* if you can teach me how to link to posts.

--
*forever=at least five minutes

[AutumnEvenings]

Well Glork, then here's a test: close your eyes and tell me what MBL thinks about five random players (not counting yourself). If you can do it, I'm impressed.

And yes, I noticed your two "fights" with BM, one of which was all about his playstyle. That's all well and good, but you didn't comment at all on him doing somethng which caused you to FoS (and then vote) another player. The exact same thing. I don't like it.

--------
Anyway, I'm going to

vote: BeanBagBoy

. I didn't like (30), absolutely hated (55) (that's the one where he said "any nightkill is a good nightkill"), and aside from that, he's donw an awful lot of parroting (see, e.g. 70 and 205). His (259) was also weird--he thinks Guardian is scummy but that Guardian's defense of YogurtBandit was valid but was very non-commital on YB himself. He's also done way too much role spec (masons in 259 and cop in 290) which is just

bad

. He also weakens a lot of his posts with "it's no biggie" or "they're acting scummy but they're always scummy so maybe" and the like. And that's pretty much all he's added to the game.

I find him way more suspicious than Albert. *shrug*
----------

Re: BattleMage

--I find his play extremely frustrating. I really didn't like how he said he wouldn't wagon Albert to save himmself and then later went ahead and jumped on YogurtBandit to save himself. BM--why did you think it wasn't good to vote Albert to save yourself but was perfectly "logical" to vote YB to save yourself? I really don't know what to make of you. I don't want to get into playstyle discussion (that lasts pages and is fruitless anyway), but I'm keeping a very, very close eye on you, and wouldn't object to lynching you today.

Anyway, I don't find his bandwagon suspicious or think that it in any way indicates that he's pro-town, in large part because I agreed with everyone's reasons for voting him. Getting 6 votes for acting scummy is just fine by me.

---------------

Shteven

--are you aware that the only person you've voted all game is Albert? And that you placed that vote (which was the 6th vote on his early game wagon) in post 60 and said:

I just laughed when I saw point #3, so I'm tossing out a mostly random vote to help him out:

Vote: Albert

? And that aside from Albert, all you've done up until this page is voice a minor suspicion (based on gut feeling) of Glork and discuss game theory?

FoS: Shteven

.

HungryJoe

--if you think this game is boring (as per post 182), why don't you try spicing it up? Make a case. The best post you made was when you were accused (by Glork). I can see you're absent till tomorrow, but maybe this will help?

FoS: Hungry Joe

.

Guardian

is another player who's driving me insane. After making his first post (voting Glork for not catching all 5 scum already), he then twice followed Glork's vote (onto MBL and then BM), which I thought was really odd. I didn't like post 170--people who say there's nothing to comment on aren't helping things at all. And there's the weird switching all over the place on YougurtBandit in the space of like 5 posts, none of which featured any new posts by YB. Can't read you, don't like it.

YogurtBandit

also falls into the "gah!!!" category. His stance on BM also drives me nuts. It goes from "not enough evidence" to voting BM to "BM seems pro-town" (99) to FoSing BM, and then he jumps on Albert (6th vote, second wagon). And the page 12 conversation with Jack felt very weird and possibly staged. And I really disliked post 261--what a non-commital way of raising the issue of N9V's lurking. And to get meta--I'm kind of confused. You have a very recent join date but tons of posts and seem to be playing in zillions of games. Are you new? Anyway, he's also another one of those non-commital followers.

FoS: YogurtBandit

--------------
And that's kind of all I've got. Disapointing, I know.

[AutumnEvenings]

(umm, I see I made a new page. The comment to Shteven should then read "up until the last page")

[AutumnEvenings]

Thanks Yogurt--knowing that you're not new makes me much more critical of you. Why are you picking "random" people for PBPA's? (Why are you doing those at all?) I'd like to know your top 2-3 suspects please.

*contemplates vote-switching*

MBL--sorry, that's what I meant by "content". Could be another "cultural difference" between here and where I usually post.

Jack--with all of those "really"s, could you maybe clarify a bit for me? I'm kind of biased, I admit--I don't like PBPAs because I think they tend to be useless--way too much quoting-of-every-post (which we can all read ourselves, thanks) and barely ever any significant analysis. But I'm not sure what makes Yogurt's so scummy.

Glork, who the hell is BT? Also, which "orders" are you looking at when deciding who the supposed scum are on these wagons? There was a fair amount of voting and unvoting going on. And I'm still really bothered by you thinking that just because BM got six votes in ~50 posts, that makes him town. He's very suspicious to my eyes. You do realize that we have 13 pro-town players, right? I don't see whay it's so hard to believe that fewer than half of us thought he was worth voting. Especially since you seem to think that 3 people--including me--are scum. Do you really think (if you're pro-town) only two people besides yourself happen to genuinely find his actions scummy?

[AutumnEvenings]

Glork--oh, right. I call him "Billy" in my mind (not big on initials, it took me a long time to get comfortable with people calling me AE :p) so I couldn't figure out the T stuff. I don't get why the post you're pointing out (which was just him defending his playstyle some more) makes you think he's town either. But whatever, I guess we'll just have to disagree here.

HungryJoe--I'm ingoring for a few reaons, mainly (1) I'm pretty suspicious of Guardian anyway, and (2) it seems to be chic here at mafiascum to urge people to bandwagon. I can never tell how serious people are, so I tend to just ignore it. If someone wants to convince me, they can make I case.

I'd be suspicious if a wagon grew out of his non-reasoned urging, perhaps. But...eh. I've read (or skimmed) a bunch of games and seen that sort of stuff a lot, so it doesn't really affect my opinion of TCS (which is very nebulous as is).

[AutumnEvenings]

You not being able to read me is a good thing for me whatever my alignment is. You are suspicious of me enough that I likely won't get NK'd but are not suspicious of me enough so that I will get lynched today. I used to think it was in everyone's best interests to look really, really pro-town all the time... but MeMe has begun to convince me otherwise in another thread. So go ahead, and not be able to read me. That's great for my team (the town).

I strongly, strongly disagree, but this thread has seen enough playstyle arguments. Suffice to say that

someone

(or, in this game, some two) will most likely get nightkilled every night. In the meantime, I balance people's arguments with how much I trust them. And I suspect people I can't read. But I'm glad to know you're being purposefully confusing and unhelpful.

vote: Guardian

. Better safe than sorry.

AE seems a little insincere compared with last game. Like she's trying to copy her style but isn't quite succesful. Will wait and see on this one.

Or this could be explained by the fact that this game has 18 people, as opposed to 7, and I'm a bit lost. Your behavior seems slightly different (which is good, as you were scum :p), but Johhan's seems

very

different. I don't quite know what to make of it, as he was town last time...but we (I was largely responsible) did lynch him for his behavior so...I don't know. I've got quite an eye on him.

Jack is correct, I often act scummy on purpose.

Ugh, not another one. With all the scummy-acting and scummy playstyles, how on earth are we supposed to find the actual scum?

FoS: TCS

, because he might be one of them.

Love at Yos for post 454.

The point of acting scummy as townie is to make your next games as mafia easier. TCS got lynched as scum twice with this behavior, I think it's possible he is trying to set a precedent, so I don't regard his behavior as indicating anything about his alignment.

That's horrible! I was putting it down to selfish gameplay (wanting to survive as long as possible), but to use another game as town to set up a next win as mafia? That's not pro-town behavior. I hope your explanaition is incorrect, because...jesus, that's intentionally going against your own faction for personal gain.

I wasn't acting scummy so people [couldn't] get a read on me. I wanted to see who was most interested in shifting the wagon to me.

*sigh* Can I FoS people twice? The whole "I wanted to see the reactions" bit is getting very old. Plus you rarely find anything useful anyway, and you've wasted your own political capital (or "trust capital") so it makes the argument harder to swallow. Plus scum say this all the damn time. (*points to her recently finished newbie, and Jack :p*)

One last thought - TCS, NK speculation being scummy or no, If I were the SK, I almost certainly would have axed Glork. Like it or not, that's just true. I am more afraid that people will become convinced I am a mafia member, which I am also not.

That's not nightkill spec, that's WIFOM. (And besides, who wouldn't kill Glork? )

Unvote, vote Guardian

Just to put pressure and get a claim.

Oh lord, and here I was, half-way defending you. (Well, more pointing out that you were acting like half the damn town but were the only one gathering a lynch mob, but still). (1)Why vote someone for "pressure" when they judt said they'd be gone? (2) What good would a claim do? Either we lynch him or we don't. Forcing him to claim early just for curiousity or whatever is absurd. Bad, bad, bad, and scummy to boot.

FoS: Albert

.

I posted too quick. I think Snitchkin (whatever his name is) is scummiest, but between Guardian and TCS, I trust TCS more. Guardian doesn't appeal to me as a day1 lynch, but I still want a claim to see what happens.

And it just gets worse.

unvote: Guardian, vote: Albert B. Rampage

.

Gah. Glork, what is it about you?! I honestly do

not

understand why BM and now Albert making posts that...well, whatever...why these posts change your mind. Please, please explain to be.

I see scummy play, I go after scummy play. I see deliberately scummy play, I go after it harder. I see deliberately scummy play from like four different people, I get angry.

Quoted for fucking truth.

*goes to figure out the vote-count*

[AutumnEvenings]

I got:
4 on Guardian (BM, TCS, Hacker, Albert)
3 on Albert (N9V, Shteven, Autumn)
3 on TCS: Yogurt, InHim, Guardian
1 on Yogurt (BeanBagBpy)
1 on NV9 (MrBuddyLee)
1 on BattleMage (Johhan)
1 on Glork (Yos)

and I guess that means 4 people aren't voting, which would be....Jack, Billy, and...umm...HungryJoe and...well, beats the hell out of me. :p

[AutumnEvenings]

EBWOP---Well, that count is current as of my last post, don't know what you've done in the meantime.

[AutumnEvenings]

We really need a vote count on albert. AE you counted?

Yeah, but now add Yos to it.

Also, the person I forgot was Glork on Shteven--thought I'd written it and I hadn't.

Glork, I guess it's your gut. Your gut and mine don't agree.

By the wat, nice answers to Albert. I'll add one of my own--some people simply see things that others miss. (Plus, one more--it really can't be any fun to just follow someone around. I mean, why are you playing mafia? I doubt that's the reason at all. Otherwise you could just read the game and pretend or whatever.)

[AutumnEvenings]

Yogurt--haha. Glork once tried to beat the hell out of me and I was left entirely unsatisfied.

Oddly, Glork kind of left out the most important reason:
D) If you're scum, Albert, we'll use your arguments to catch you.

Now why would Glork overlook the most important reason for Albert to post his suspicions?

Perhaps because he was trying to give him incentive to post, as opposed to incentive to lurk and/or not contribute?

I know people in Park City are odd (:p) but you can't really think Glork not stating that is somehow suspicious?

[AutumnEvenings]

AE- Did you put that on purpose or did you really not know?

Put what on purpose?

[AutumnEvenings]

Perhaps because he was trying to give him incentive to post, as opposed to incentive to lurk and/or not contribute?

That's the point, though; if Albert is scum, he might want to lurker so as to not give himself away, but if he's town that argument dosn't make sense.

Well yes, but you don't say to scum "you should do X so we can catch you." You try to make them do X in other ways.

[AutumnEvenings]

AE, you know you like it when I play rough with you.

Oh, I know. I'm saying you're not nearly rough enough for the likes of me. :leer:

(And yes, I'm voting Shteven right now.)

Yep, I caught that in my post 539.

AE- The beats the crap out of me thing on your vote count.

No, I really had left him out accidentally. (I was going off of Lee's last count, which had Shteven at the top since he had the most votes, but now everyone but Glork is off him, so I was going to put him at the bottom and I thought I had, but I obviously hadn't.)

Guardian... *sigh* Well, I die as vanilla all the time. Sometimes I draw kills on purpose, sometimes I get killed for being too close to the answers or whatever. When I first started playing (elsewhere), I thought all vanillas should try to draw kills from power roles. Now I think that's too simple, as some players are worth more than a power-role, honestly. (I'm not such a player, except if the only other players are no good. :p) I guess...well, this is more theory. Suffice it to say, I think town should contribute as best as they're able. For me, that means hunting down the scum wherever you can find them, as that's the whole point of the game. *shrug*

[AutumnEvenings]

heh...I tend to go with the more direct method, namely "Do X so we can figure out if you're scum, or else if you don't do X I'll just assume you're scum and lynch you anyway because X is a pro-town thing to do."

Hahaha. That's why you're a man and I'm a woman.

In all seriousness, I've noticed a lot of people don't like lynching lurkers around here, and I'd really rather people just posted than to have to argue that stuff again so...

But yes, your method would work, but only if the threat was real. Going off of your sig, you and I may be of similar dispositions. Which makes two...

[AutumnEvenings]

vote: Autumn Evenings

This is my very first vote ever on mafiascum.

Just thought you'd all like to know. Good thing I wasn't anywhere near a lynch.

Shteven, I did indeed read those posts. It wasn't hard, as you only had about 5 of them. (I just looked, you now have 9, including the one asking what EBWOP stands for.) What I'm saying is that you aren't adding anything except "I'm happy with my random vote." You have

not

argued against those people...unless you're counting this:

Taking the vote count off page 9 (seemed as good as any) BM's wagon was: Haut Boy, HungryJoe, Guardian. If you want to check other pages for other names, please add them here, it's getting late. Haut is now AutumnEvenings, of course. HJ's been a bit odd, but nothing too anti-town, but this would be enough to FOS him in my book. Guardian would be the worst of those three.

as an argument, which I certainly wouldn't. (Not to mention, that's in the post where I said "up until your last post", so...thank you, drive through.)

And for crying out loud, would people stop calling the game boring?! If you don't like what's happening, step up and post something

real

. Don't just lurk and/or complain while waiting for other people to do everything for you.

[AutumnEvenings]

MoS--sure, I'm up for a party. But what makes you think Billy is pro-town? I have so little read on him that I'm kind of baffled at how you reached that conclusion.

[AutumnEvenings]

MoS--sure, I'm up for a party. But what makes you think Billy is pro-town? I have so little read on him that I'm kind of baffled at how you reached that conclusion.

Billy has posted like 5 posts, and they all seem pro town I guess.

I'm sorry...are you MoS? 'Cause pretty sure I asked him.

[AutumnEvenings]

Reading this I was trying to decide whether Albert felt sincere or whether it was emotional manipulation, or what, but I've decided I honestly don't care.

Billy Twilight's last post was on Monday and he said he'd try to get a re-read and post in by Wednesday. It's now well past Wednesday. And I found Yogurt's and HungryJoe's reaction to my question to MoS about why he called Billy pro-town rather interesting. Especially since Yogurt seems scummy to me, as does HungryJoe (who, it's worth noting, echoed Billy in 107 on the subject of Yogurt).

So

unvote, vote: BillyTwilight, re-FoS: HungryJoe and Yougurt

.

[AutumnEvenings]

I will never like or approve of lurker hunting, and I consider it a scum tactic.

That's nice, but

I

consider lurking a scum tactic. But, if you read my post, I thought I made it clear that only part of the reason I was voting you was for lurking--the rest was for Yogurt and HungryJoe's reactions to my question of MoS concerning his declaration of you as pro-town.

Regardless, you yourself admit to reading the thread but you didn't post till I voted you. So you can be pissed off all you like, but I'm quite happy with the results of my vote.

[AutumnEvenings]

Frankly, I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this argument.

I will say, if Billy Twilight put half as much energy into scum-hunting that he is into attacking lurker-hunting, I'd be willing to unvote him.

MoS, can't you be a bit more specific? Or is it just "gut"?

Albert, what makes you think Yogurt was responding sarcastically to my question (towards MoS)?

[AutumnEvenings]

AE, I am particularly attracted to the game theory side of mafia, and enjoy thinking about it and discussing it. As such I have given this topic a lot of thought and consideration over the past 4 months or so. I have a lot of things to talk about without having to spend 2 hours reading the thread to make a post. It just seems like I put more energy into this discussion than in the game; truth be told it's a lot less difficult than re-reading and posting character analysis for me.

But it's also a lot less likely to give any idication of your actual allignment, and thus is a safe way for scum to look like they're contributing to the game when they actually are

not

. Obviously, we can't take this discussion to the mafia discussion forum as it pertains to an ongoing game, but it could wait until after (or dig up and old thread and read it--I'm sure it's been addressed before as it seems to come up all the time).

I have to say, I find it really unsettling that you didn't post until voted and now you're posting up a flury of non-game-related discussion, which only serves as a distraction from the actual game itself.

[AutumnEvenings]

Billy, if you read my post you just pointed out?

You

started it by calling lurker hunting a scum tactic. I replied that lurking is a scum tactic and pointed out the other reasons I had for voting you.

[AutumnEvenings]

Billy--weren't you going to post something with game content?

Glork's typo looks like a typo to me, and his reaction seems fine/normal/appropriate/not indicative of any alignment at all to me. (I still don't have a good overall read on him though.)

I'd be quite happy lynching the following: Billy, Yogurt, Albert, Shteven, and possibly a few others (my two other main suspects, BeanBagBoy and Battlemage, have just been replaced, so I'll give their replacements a bit of time to form impressions).

Speaking of replacements... Pless, :love: (:roll:); TSQ, nice to be playing with you.

[AutumnEvenings]

I'm Watching You: Yosarian2

When was the last time you actually talked about the game instead of theory/replacements/lurking/etc.? It's getting somewhat old. I actually had a pretty pro-town read on you and I'll be annoyed if I have to change my mind since there are so damn few of y'all that don't seem scummy.

[AutumnEvenings]

I kind of hate to do this as I'm not sure it's entirely fair, but this:

Since TSQ hasn't posted yet, and BM has explained why he hasn't made any game revelant posts in a week, BM is reinstated. TSQ will be the next replacement, if needed.

makes me pretty sure BattleMage is a townie. I don't see any way he could be mafia, as TSQ would have seen the role PM with all the partners. I guess he could be another role (SK or pro-town power role), but those roles are sort of expected to live (as the pro-town role would claim if close to lynch and the SK...well, he

has

to survive or he loses so it's top priority). I know this is serious meta, but in my opinion, this pretty much clears him.

unFos:Battlemage

.

AE looks to be trying to build a case against as many people as she can, and a lot of them on floppy reasons.

Heh. Pretty much all I have to say to that is, when I build a case on someone? You will know. Right now, I'm just pointing out suscions.

I don't like her post #755 against Yos. She did the same kind of thing to me, basically accused me (and now Yos) of thread spamming and not posting "game-related content".

Not exactly, because I don't actually think Yos is evil. I was basically telling him to knock it off. I don't think he's doing it

instead

of scum-hunting, which is what I accused you of, as he's done an awful lot of the latter. I think he's doing it along with it, which is different.

But I still think it needs to stop because right now this game is 31 pages long, and we're still on Day One and I don't feel like we're anywhere close to a lynch. Unlike Yos, I don't think it's likely at all that we'll get scum-tells off of discussion like this as I view it as "safe topics". People tend to subscribe to certain theories regardless of allignment, and discussing how the game ought to be played or whatever doesn't risk much at all. I think forcing everyone to make cases and take stances is much more informative, as they'd be talking about the actual players and the actual actions in this actual game, which would give us information, especially once we start lynching. Filling up the thread with stuff that could easily go in the mafia discussion forum, in my opinion, will cause us problems later on. No one will want to re-read a gigantic game very often, and that's very, very dangerous in/near endgame.

BTW, will you please quantify you case against me? I'd like to know why you want me lynched. If it's because we disagree about a game theory issue then you really need to rethink your strategy for playing mafia.

Well let's see. As I said when I cast my vote in post 646:
(1)MoS called you pro-town, which I found baffling, as you'd done next to nothing. So I asked him how he reached that conclusion.
(2) Yogurt chose to jump in and answer for MoS.
(3) When I pointed that out, HungryJoe resorted to personal attacks on me.
(4) I glanced at my notes and noticed a previous Yogurt/Billy/Hungry interaction that I'd found scummy (posts 99, 106, 107).
(5) I'd also been suspicious of Yogurt and Hungry for other reasons.
(6) Since you had very few posts and had promised a post but not delivered and hadn't posted in nearly a week, I voted you.

I did not mention...
(7) Voting you seemed best of the three since you'd recieved the least attention thus your reaction would be the most illuminating.

And as added in post 653:
(-8-) You admit that you'd been reading the thread but not posting. As soon as I voted you, you posted.

And as I added in in posts 676 and 684
(9) You didn't post anything except attacking lurker hunting--nothing about suspects, thoughts on players, who might be pro-town, etc. Just that lurker hunting is a scum tactic, which you said lots and lots and lots.

You can try to characterize my vote as a disagreement on a game theory issue, but that just makes me think you're trying to downplay the whole thing, especially as this isn't the first time I've clarified my vote on you (see post 653).

[AutumnEvenings]

Edit--that damn smiley keeps appearing whenever I write 8s. That sucks.

[AutumnEvenings]

*sigh* I only repeated it because Billy

again

asked me why I was voting him. If you want to believe that,

as he himself admitted

, Billy was reading the thread all along, but then coincidentally decided to post an hour or whatever after I voted him, that's fine by me. And if you think I'm scummy for answering people's questions, I have no counterargument for that.

Shteven, I can do what I want. :p Lee didn't say the PM wasn't sent. In his post before I made mine, he hadn't even specified that it wasn't

read

. Everyone can decide for themselves what they believe. I'm not going to argue the point, just stating my opinion and my reasoning for no longer suspecting Battlemage.

[AutumnEvenings]

*sigh* Yes, I do. Because I think LoudmothLee didn't think about what he was saying/doing very hard. I think if Battlemage were scum or the SK, that wouldn't have slipped his mind, whereas thinking "oh, but he'd know he's protown" might. Like I said when I first brought it up, it's all very meta. I'm not trying to persuade anyone with this. It's my opinion. I happen to think it's right, and I no longer suspect BattleMage, who used to be one of my top suspects, so I thought I'd tell you all why.

[AutumnEvenings]

Pretty sizable "happy list", I like to narrow mine down a lot more before I consider being happy with my decision. YMMV.

Yeah, my mileage does vary. I don't think Day One lynches are random or whatever, but...eh. I have between 4-6 suspects. I obviously want to wait till Plessiez starts posting, especially as I was suspcious of BeanBagBoy, but early in games, I tend to cast my net kind of wide. And I'm honestly having a very hard time reading a lot of people, and looking over voting patterns really isn't showing me anything just yet. Basically, I see those four plus

BBB

-->Pless as the most suspicious and at this point I'd be happy with running them up. I'm having a hard time keeping track of everyone, and people vanish (InHim, hi, are you out there?) and blur together, so I feel kind of like that'll be the best I can do for now. Of course I'll adapt, but as of this moment, I'd be happy with any of them as the play.

Autumn, what do you think of MoS? Reason I ask is you asked him a question about BT, then reminded the rest of us six times that you asked that question.

I actually feel somewhat good about MoS. N9V did one thing which bothered me--placed the 5th vote on the first Albert wagon with weak reasoning--but MoS's posts seem fairly pro-town. He seems to rely on his gut more than I do and we have different styles, but I haven't gotten scummy vibes from him.

I mentioned that question so many times because people kept asking. :p The interesting part was how Yogurt and HungryJoe seemed to leap to Billy's defense (or alternitively, to shut down my questioning, which is basically the same thing, I'd think). It's possible that they're all in it together, but that seems fairly unlikely, and MoS isn't connected to any of them in any other ways I've noticed, nor does he seem nearly as scummy.

[AutumnEvenings]

MrBuddyLee--what do you think about Glork?

Glork--if you had to lynch InHim or MBL right now, which would you pick and why?

[AutumnEvenings]

That hypothetical makes me sad.

That's nice, but what do you think of Glork?

[AutumnEvenings]

@AE:

I don't like post #839. It seems like you are stretching for a way to contribute to the discussion. Why did you pick those players to ask those questions to and about? When you first entered the game you had a lot to talk about with all of the post previous to your entrance. Since then you have attacked me, but when that didn't get traction with the other players you have kind of dropped out of the picture. Your read on BM is just wrong, and I want to know if you still hold to the fact that he is town, as post #792 indicates. Do you simply not believe LML's clarification post #762? I don't know if you realize this, but when you PM someone on the boards, the PM stays in your outbox until they read it, then it gets moved to your sentbox. If LML says that TSQ didn't read the PM, that means he deleted it out of his outbox before TSQ picked it up, and thus he knows that TSQ did not read the PM and has no idea what BM's alignment is. This means that your reasoning for clearing BM is wrong.

When I first replaced in, I had lots to say as like 15 pages of posts had been made without me commenting. Now I comment on things as I go.

Yes, I still think BM is town. No, I don't actually believe LoudmouthLee. And no, I don't want to talk about it anymore. I've tried to drop this subject at least twice. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds, I'm just saying what I think, and I'm a stubborn bitch at times and this point is likely to be one of them.

I picked MrBuddyLee and Glork for several reasons. First, they're the two players who are driving me the most crazy in the "he's pro-town, no wait, he's scum, damn it, he's town, fuck, he's scum!" way. So I want to pin them down on issues, such as each other, as I feel that helps me get a better read, and if they

are

evil, it's nice to force them to take stances.

I asked Glork about InHim vs. MBL because I have zero read on InHim and had nothing on Coron either, and Glork seems to go back on forth on MBL. MBL, voted Glork but also seems to go back and forth on him. They've both suspected Guardian and Albert. It could be they're scum-buddies, but I really have no idea, and I do so love asking one scum what they think of another. :p (Neither of their answers made me conclude that they

weren't

partners.)

And finally, honestly, I'm under the impression they both know each other rather well, so if one of them is evil and the other is not, they might be able to spot tells/tendancies/whatever. *shrug*

And also, yes, I

was

trying to contribute to the discussion. I hate when people come in and go "this is boring" and don't say anything real, or who just don't post at all. I didn't think MrBuddyLee's question to Yogurt and Albert was going to bear fruit but didn't have much else to say (Albert didn't respond to my "defense" (using quotes because that would be a generous term to the paragraph I wrote), and nothing much else had happened since my last post except MBL's question).

I'm also waiting to hear from Pless, as I suspected BeanBagBoy and want to see if that was just playstyle or if he's an evil, evil killer, and I also expect Pless to throw up loads of stuff for us to talk about (we've played together before, elsewhere).

I don't know about Glrok's case...it's pretty much what I was feeling, but I don't know that it's all that superstrong. I do find it interesting that Shteven came out to defend himself with some big huge posts. I wish he'd write some big huge posts about his opinions on other players (and please don't go any further down the "too townie" path on me, k?).

Actually...Shteven, if Albert and Guardian ceased to exist, who would you vote and why?

[AutumnEvenings]

Also, AE, I don't see how I'm "going back and forth" on MBL. Other than my initial attack on him, I have clearly stated him as being pro-town in multiple analyses/summaries.

Eh. I guess it's more that you initially went after him, then backed off (with an interesting "oops, maybe you were right" in 327), but keep disagreeing with him about stuff (see, e.g. 220, 227, 234, 240,...oh, lots, but I'm done hunting them down. :p). And I know that's not suspecting someone, but it's...I dunno, I felt weird about it. Also, are you

sure

you "clearly stated him as town in several analyses"? I really, really don't remember that and just scanned your posts and didn't see it. 374 I read as you thinking MBL might be the SK. Is that not what you meant? When I asked you why you left him off your list, you replied that he'd done something you liked and some you didn't and called him "neutral"(397). You did say he "wasn't a better lynch than [Gaurdian and/or Albert, I believe?]" (698). I didn't see you declaring him town until after my question (and that was only "likely" :p).

Sweet Shteven, I didn't say the post was good. Rather, that it was big and huge. I agree that quantity does not equal quality. What I meant was, you clearly put a lot of time and effort into defending yourself, and I wish you'd put a similar amount of time and effort into making cases. And I kind of don't know what to make of your MBL/Glork suspicious. 'Cause I have them too and I hate when people I kind of attack go on to agree with me. :p

Gah. This game.

Also, Yogurt, what the hell? Shadowluker isn't a mod or a player in this game. Please ignore whatever nonsense you're hearing and just play like a normal person, k?

[AutumnEvenings]

In Post 406, I called him pro-town. I also defended MBL from MoS's "MBL is lurking, and he does that as scum" point (which was flawed anyway) when I pointed out that MBL does sometimes lurk as town, too.

You did indeed call him pro-town in 406, I'd missed that. Saying he sometimes lurks as town I wouldn't count asserting his towniness, just as saying someone else's argument stinks. :p Regardless, I asked you because I

felt

like you'd waffled on him. Now you've taken a firm stance so I win anyway. :p

[AutumnEvenings]

unvote: BillyTwilight; (re)vote: Gaurdian

[AutumnEvenings]

I definitely agree that we should not lynch just yet. (But is he really at -1? That doesn't seem right. I have him at 5, though I haven't kept the best count.) I really still want to hear from Pless (or his replacement). I can't believe I'm the only one who feels this way...

Also, it's been nearly a week since you posted,

Yosarian2

. Given our discussion on lurking and such...well, suffice to say, I'd like to hear from you. In post #551 you said that Yogurt was "perhaps" one of your top suspects (along with Glork, Albert, and Guardian). What do you think of him now? Anything changed your mind about Glork or Albert?

[AutumnEvenings]

So...TCS? How can you tell when a "naturally scummy" person is scum or not? I'm quite frankly

not

willing to give scummy behavior a pass,

especially

when it seems like that's been brought up as a reason to not lynch about a quarter of our players.

That said, I've given up waiting for Pless to be replaced and I'm about to jump into a serious re-read.

[AutumnEvenings]

I know Pless from outside of mafiascum. He's not lurking, he's inactive due to RL reasons. I can confidently say that this has nothing whatsoever to do with his allignment. I have no idea what his allignment

is

, as BeanBagBoy was very suspicious to me, but there's certainly a reason I haven't been jumping on his ass for promising to post and then not delivering. He needs a replacement.

Still working on my re-read.

[AutumnEvenings]

Gah, I'm still working on this stupid re-read--I'm sorry, I've been rather busy. In the meantime, here's a vote-count (since I just finished some voting analysis, and it has been a week...)

5 votes for Guardian - ([BattleMage], HackerHuck, InHim, Shteven, AE, [BattleMage*])
5 votes for Yogurt - (Pless, Billy, HungryJoe, Jack, MoS)
4 votes for Shteven - (Glork, Albert, TCS, Guardian)
2 votes for Glork - (MBL, Johhan)
1 vote for Albert - (Yos)
1 vote for TCS - (Yogurt)

----
*Not quite sure what to do with him, since he was the first vote on, but then did an "unvote, vote Guardian" (whom he was already voting). So first or 5th, depending on you guys' traditions.

[AutumnEvenings]

Mafiascum is driving me nuts--giving me error messages all the time. Anyway, I'm nearly done with the read and will be presenting my findings, and barring annoying error messages, should be posting it all sometime this afternoon.

Happy about the replacements.

[AutumnEvenings]

All right, I've been just absolutely awful this past week. Personal life a wreck and all that jazz.

Anyway, can we please lynch Guardian or Albert today? I really will post loads more tomorrow (I don't work).

*hangs head in shame*

[AutumnEvenings]

Not that any of you seem to have noticed that I haven't fulfilled my promised posts, but I haven't and I do feel bad about it. I've contemplated asking for replacement, but since one of the huge stressors in my life will be over on July 25, I think I'll stick it out, for continuity's sake, and because, even though you can't really tell, I actually

do

care about this game.

I'm going to be without internet from tomorrow to the 12th, which I realize is absolutely awful timing, given the deadline. I'll be posting what I've got this evening. It's important that we lynch. I'm going to stay on Guardian, since only Yos (I believe?) is on Albert, and I suspect Guardian more than Yogurt. (Also, I don't really buy into MrBuddyLee's arguments that he's the SK, but I really don't care one way or the other--in fact, since the SK acts alone, we'd be cutting down nightkills right at the start, as opposed to just lynching one of many mafia-members, so...yeah. Also, relying on the SK to off scum at night is silly--he has no better idea than the rest of us, and puls...well, whatever.) So anyway...that's sort of what's going on right now. I might be able to check early tomorrow morning (Mountain Time) and see if I really need to move my vote in order to secure a lynch.

Sorry to you all.

[AutumnEvenings]

MoS, are you serious? We

do

have a deadline looming, and I've had weird feelings about MBL (honestly, his SK-obsession makes me wonder if he's the SK), but...do you really think you can get him lynched at this point? And you think him unvoting was that bad? (He also didn't random-vote at the start, which I found a bit amusing given "always vote" stance, but...it's not

that

bad.)

Do you really think MBL is more likely to be scum than both Yogurt and Guardian, whom we actually have a reasonable chance of lynching?

[AutumnEvenings]

I'm back, still suck. I do, however, seem to recall Yogurt jumping in to answer a question I asked MoS (how he knew Billy was town, if I'm remembering correctly) and HungryJoe getting all ad hom on me when I pointed that out.

Chew on that till tomorrow, when I really, really,

really

will post something big and huge and shiney and worthwhile.

[AutumnEvenings]

Ahem.

The reason I haven't been posting here, despite being back in town since Thursday night, is because I still haven't finished that damn re-read. I'm on about page 32. I've felt like I promised something and shouldn't post till I could deliver, but honestly, at this point, I've decided to just say fuck it.

I appologize completely. I realize I've been dreadful. I'm abandoning that task but will play from here on out like I mean it. My RL issues have cleared up a lot, and my biggest stressor (the Bar exam) will be over on July 25, so then I'll be normal again.

In the mean time...

I would have definitely switched over to Albert had I been here. I'm surprised he came up pro-town, and I really don't fault the lynch at all. (I thought the fact that he'd had two lynches spring up and then vanish was indicative of him being scum, because I didn't really see any good reason for them to have evaporated, especially twice. Plus there was weird stuff going on with him and other players, especially Guardian. Anyway, I was wrong.)

I'm going to scan MoS's posts right now, and see if I find anything worth noting. I don't know about this Guardian thing...it seems too...easy?

[AutumnEvenings]

The sheer amount of times MoS mentions Glork is just staggering. It

could

, however, be indicative of trying to get on Glork's good side, since Glork is the God of Mafia or whatever. I'm not quite sure what to make of it, but it makes me very uneasy. Especially in a three-faction game.

Oh, and MrBuddyLee could still definitely be the SK. :p Going after scum was his advice, after all. But I do think that it's highly unlikely that he's regular mafia.

I find it odd that MoS had BeanBagBoy (now Sarc) down as protown, not even just neutral, but did point out he was fishing for the cop. Maybe I'm just biased because I suspected BBB a lot, but...who does that? So I'll go ahead and

FoS: Sarc

for BBB's scummy posts, mason- and cop-fishing, for MoS calling you (him) definitely protown despite all that, for your weird vig thing, and because (*hypocrisy alert!*) I don't feel you've talked about enough players, so I have very little grasp on where you stand in the game.

Also, I already thought BattleMage was pro-town. I don't see how anyone could read MoS and conclude that he and BattleMage were partners. I suppose there's the slight possibility that he's an SK, but I'm still calling him town.

MoS's stance on lurking makes me think there's at least one lurker-scum out there.

He certainly skirted the Shteven thing several times, despite wanting (it seems) to be on good terms with Glork. Interesting.

I don't know what to make of his interactions with Yogurt. It seems a lot of you think that MoS's "protecting" Guardian is indicative of them being buddies. I've never played with MoS, but he's not a newbie, and I know it's WIFOM and all, but really, it seems much more likely that he was trying to earn "I told you so" points than that he was protecting his buddy. Which is why I find his Yogurt stance intriguing. I wonder why he seemed to single him out, especially towards the end. It could be that he was trying to bus a partner, as his (Yogurt's) lynch did seem pretty likely.

His expirement thing was really odd as well.

Anyway, that's what I got.

[AutumnEvenings]

I don't know about this Guardian thing...it seems too...easy?

That is almost exactly what MoS said ! It is true, but it's odd that you're saying it like that xD.

I don't mean that you're "the easy lynch" or whatever--I don't buy into that crap. What I meant was, it seems way too easy that dead scum would lead directly to living scumbuddy because dead scum blatantly protected living buddy. Subtle defenses, soft-ball questioning, looking for alternative lynches right when someone's under pressure, etc. are all things that show partnership to me. It is, as I said, a tad WIFOM, but I really don't think anyone with any experience would be as clumsy as that.

*shrug*

[AutumnEvenings]

I don't generally find a need to comment on players whom I don't want dead unless I have a particular reason to or I am asked to. Would you like me to comment on anyone in particular?

Yeah. I'd like your opinions on MrBuddyLee and InHim in particular.

[AutumnEvenings]

For the time being, I believe Guardian's claim.

vote: XYZ

. Quite simply, Johhan acted very different than he did in the game I played with him before (he was a townie), and you've only given us three posts, two of which said you weren't caught up. (I understand those, but it has been nearly a month now since you replaced in). The only player you've commented on is Albert. Nothing makes me trust you and I have meta on Johhan that makes me distrust you. Make your next few posts nice and meaty, please.

[AutumnEvenings]

However, I find it highly likely (say, 80%) that the SK will target Guardian (again, unless Guardian is the SK -- a probability which I find to be insignificant). I'd give about a 50% chance of scum targeting Guardian. There is only a 50% chance that there is even another Doctor alive, and probably only a 60% chance that any living Doctor would protect Guardian.

Hey Glork? Stop telling the Serial Killer what to do, ok?

FoS: Glork

for essentially saying "Hey SK, you kill the doc and the mafia'll kill someone else, ok?"

[AutumnEvenings]

I'm not *telling* the SK what to do. I am predicting what they will likely do. Like I said, regardless of what Guardian is, the SK would have a vested interest in seeing Guardian die.

You're "predicting" a plan out loud on the thread which is bad for the town. I personally would rather

not

facilitate their decision-making. I'd rather they cross-killed the same person all the time. "Predicting" who will kill who (and who will look for a target elsewhere) allows for open communication between mafia and SK.

It's bad play. I haven't given much creadence to the attacks on you (and I don't, for the record, buy a Glork/Guardian link (I thought I had a Guardian/Albert link )) but I'll go back (*sigh*) and look over them more closely. And I do remember that MoS talked about you loads and loads in a weird way. I love you and all, but you could be scum.

Still keeping my vote on XYZ though. He's posting elsewhere on the site and I want his attention here.

[AutumnEvenings]

Shteven, You make posts but never really get to any points. And if you do make a point.. You recycle the same one.

Guardian, why claim to be a doctor? It makes the job useless and makes you an obvious mafia hit. But youre mafia, so die scum

Vote: Guardian

FOS: Shteven

I like my vote on you. A lot. You just replaced into a 65 (or whatever) page game and this is what you do?

Also, not sure if he's playing follow-the-Glork 'cause Glork's his buddy or because it's a nice cover. I'm still really uncertain about Glork. But I strongly dislike his frequent metagame defenses (especially since he prides himself on being un-metagame-able). I'm considering voting him. But ManaSpryte seems worse.

[AutumnEvenings]

If one of Shteven/inHim is scum, it is much,

much

more likely to be inHim. I don't think that inHimScum would fake an entire play attitude for the sake of extending his "case" against me.

I don't understand this at all. Especially the part where you're voting for Shteven.

[AutumnEvenings]

I'm going to have extremely limited acces between now and the 25th. Appologies.

[AutumnEvenings]

Fine. I'm more or less done with the busy-crazy-insanity that was my life. I'll do a close read on Glork and write up what I find. He posts an awful lot, so I probably won't finish it till tomorrow.

We're really not lynching Guardian today. And I'm still rather happy with my vote on ManaSpryte

[AutumnEvenings]

All right, here's my summary on Glork's actions (leaving out lots of stuff that I didn't find particularly relevant). All post-numbers are when viewing posts made by Glork in isolation.

Pro-town

--In retrospect, had a good read on the BattleMage wagon (12) (no reason for scum to get off)
--Asks players questions (gets them to flesh out posts/suspicions) a lot (could just be playstyle though)
--Responds to things in-thread (again, could be playstyle, but it seems pro-town-ish, e.g. how he moves off of suspects well before the tide turns that way)
--Actively seeks out scum/scummy posts (again, could be playstyle, but it feels valid to me)
--I know some of you disagree, but I think unvoting Guardian after he claimed today was a pro-town move

Anti-town

--Says he'll vote people who try to analyze nightkills (1) (well, 0-3, really, but especially 1)
--hmm...he had an earlier squabble with HungryJoe, which pretty much no one else said anything about. Could this have been motivation to kill him? (e.g. he knew he wasn't well-disposed to him, and wasn't likely to be lynched as most everyone ignored him throughout the game? Not strong, but worth pointing out.)
--Post 59, says even in Albert is pro-town, he has zero qualms about lynching him. That's a bad sentiment, plus it's goading to the player in question. (Plus contrast that with 154, where he scolds (and "major FoS"es Guardiam for saying he was happy Albert was town. Seems somewhat hypocritical, though I admit it isn't an identical statement.)
--Later on in Day One and throughout today, he becomes

very

focused on Shteven, almost to the point of tunnel-vision. (Honestly, I'm almost tempted to lynch Shteven just to get a better read on Glork. :p) Ironically, one of his points against Shteven was his tunnel vision re: Albert.
--I still feel like his open "the SK will kill Guardian" spec was harmful to the town.

neutral

--Spends way to much time lecturing/scolding/discussing game theory/etc.
--Used metagame as a defense several times...don't much like that. if a player is self-aware enough to pull it out as a defense, they're self-aware enough to incorporate it into their playstyle regardless of allignment.
--nothing about MoS and Glork's interactions led me to believe they were partners, though nothing ruled it out either. (there were a few suspicious-ish things, like Glork's 97, Glork telling MoS not to buddy up to him, etc., but Glork seems to have interactions like this with most players.)

Some questions:
1) What do you think of BillyTwilight?
2) What do you think of Sarcastro?
3) Between Yos and ManaSpryte, who would you rather lynch and why?
4) If Shteven is scum, who do you think is his most likely partner? His least? (and saying "Glork" is not funny or productive :p)

Overall, I'd really rather not lynch Glork today. I'm not 100% sold on him being pro-town (see the "anit-town" list), but he doesn't seem *extremely* scummy to me, and he's actually keeping the game alive in a lot of ways, which makes me pre-disposed to wanting to keep him around. I'd rather lynch Mana, Sarc, Shteven, and probably inHim (need to read more on him) or HackerHuck (who? seriously, I keep forgetting he's even playing) over Glork at this point.

I'm also now a bit suspicious of the "Glork is scum" camp...I know he's been asking for reasons for ages, and none of you have provided any, which is...not good. Any special reason y'all want Glork dead?

And, incidentally, reading all of Glork's posts (and a lot of the context) does make me drop an

FoS on Shteven

. Shteven, I'd like to hear your top three suspects

aside

from Glork.

[AutumnEvenings]

I know the mods don't really like to be asked but...

Mods

: Hacker Huck has not posted since July 19, and BillyTwilight has not posted since July 17. Could they be prodded?

[AutumnEvenings]

Shteven, have you nothing to say about Guardian's claim?

Glork, have you nothing to say about what I asked you?

<3

[AutumnEvenings]

Shteven, have you nothing to say about Guardian's claim?

Glork, have you nothing to say about what I asked you?

<3

Not particularly.

*shrug*

unvote: ManaSpryte, FoS: ManaSpryte, Vote: Glork

According to my count, that gives us:

3 votes for Guardian (BattleMage, ManaSpryte, Shteven)
2 votes for Glork (InHim, AutumnEvenings)
1 vote for ManaSpryte (Guardian)
1 vote for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck)
1 vote for InHim (Yosarian2)

7 players have not voted: Billy Twilight, Glork, Jack, MrBuddyLee, Sarcastro, TCS, Yogurt Bandit.

[AutumnEvenings]

You're right--that was a horrible count; I left out the Shteven votes entirely. I had fun voting you--always nice making people do what I ask. :p Anyway,

unvote: Glork; (re)vote: ManaSpryte

.

I think that gives us:

4 votes for Shteven (Glork, Jack, Sarcastro, TCS)
3 votes for Guardian (BattleMage, ManaSpryte, Shteven)
2 votes for Yogurt Bandit (Billy Twilight, HackerHuck)
2 votes for ManaSpryte (Guardian, AutumnEvenings)
1 vote for InHim (Yosarian2)
1 vote for Glork (InHim)

2 players have not voted: MrBuddyLee, Yogurt Bandit.

[AutumnEvenings]

He has also explicitly stated that he doesn't feel like answering AE's question, but apparently neither of these bother you. They bother me. I'd like a response from him.

He did answer them. (After I voted him.)

Mana, you're suspicious because I played a game with Johhan as town and he acted

way

differently. You're suspicious because you read a huge game and only had two sentences to say (that may be a slightly incorrect, but you didn't say much at all). And finally, you voted the claimed doc right off the bat. Quite frankly, I'm suspicious of everyone who's voting for Guardian. It's ok to be uncertain about his claim, but Yos's post about it being moronic to lynch a claimed doc on Day Two was spot-on (as was the point about Guardian obviously not claiming to draw out a counter-claim, as there can be up to two doctors.) So yeah, those are three fairly big strikes against you. And you don't seem to feel any urge to contribute further, so I'm happy with my vote.

Try doing some stuff like weighing in on Glork or Shteven (giving him an FoS and quoting an entire post with what must

surely

be a rhetorical question if you've read the game at all (hint: about half the players in this game), does not count. Or look at someone like MrBuddlyLee or...well, anyone. Give us something to sink our teeth into and help us analyze you. Till then (or, you know, other weird scummy stuff from other people :p), my vote will stand.

[AutumnEvenings]

At this point, I really don't think it's likely that Glork and Shteven are mafia partners.

[AutumnEvenings]

Autumn, why would you ask Shteven to waste time on an analysis post of me when you've said yourself:

I do think that it's highly unlikely that he (MBL)'s regular mafia.

Because dearest, I still think you might be the SK. :p

There are a few other reasons as well. For one thing, I asked Glork what he thought of you (ages ago) and since I personally find a Glork/Shteven pairing highly unlikely, I'm interested in seeing where they agree and where they disagree.

Another is precisely

because

I don't think you're mafia. That means you have no partners, so I'm curious as to what Shteven (whom I suspect) has to say about someone I'm nearly positive isn't a partner of his (assuming he has any at all).

And lastly (the rest of you can go ahead and let your eyes glaze over right about now), I've noticed from playing elsewhere (with people I'm much more familiar with), that I tend to read certain people as always innocent and others as always evil, based on "gut" (tone of posts, how much our thinking/presentation/etc. tends to overlap, all that nebulous stuff). With those players, I have to turn off (or turn down) the gut and focus much more on actual point-to-able game stuff. I'm beginning to think you might be one of the players who always stikes me as guilty (please note, I'm not accusing you of having a "scummy playstyle" or anything, it's all in my perceptions), so I'm trying to figure out how much of what I think is really really odd (and evil) is actually odd and evil, so you're one of my favorites to ask other people to look at.

Also, in retrospect, what do you think of Glork's shout out end of D1 to a hypothetical vig to kill me last night?

I don't think vigs should kill Night One, as a general rule. (Or Night Two, if you count Night Zero as Night One, which this game might have done, can't remember.) I don't know how serious Glork was--I didn't think he actually meant it when I read it.

[AutumnEvenings]

*sigh*

That last bit should read:

Also, in retrospect, what do you think of Glork's shout out end of D1 to a hypothetical vig to kill me last night?

I don't think vigs should kill Night One, as a general rule. (Or Night Two, if you count Night Zero as Night One, which this game might have done, can't remember.) I don't know how serious Glork was--I didn't think he actually meant it when I read it.

[AutumnEvenings]

*twitches*

I think everyone should just vote Manaspryte. Either we'll get their attention and they'll start posting or else they'll be lynched and the game will move along.

All aboard!

(I'm not entirely joking here.)

[AutumnEvenings]

Mana, I also pointed out that I had a bad metaread of Johhan. And I simply don't see any pro-town player replacing into a game this big and having

nothing

substantial to say. It's absurd. Scum, on the other hand, wouldn't want to comment or commit to anything, as it gives them more room to maneuver. (And I've pointed this out before--I said you said "two sentences" or something. Downplaying my suspicions of you sure doesn't alleviate them).

Plus, saying I "goofed up" (by leading a mob on you) seems to assume I'm town. Which I am, but you shouldn't (couldn't, actually, because of the SK, but still) know that. And if you think that, then why vote me?

Also not liking the immediate jump to a more promising wagon.

Sarc, I disagree because extra nightkills shorten the game and you can't get as much information from them as you can from lynches. They certainly have their time and place, but I don't think it's early game. Anyway.

TCS, the point of the wagon was (1) to see how Mana responds, (2) to see how others respond, and (3) if I don't like (1) and am reasonably conetent with (2), to lynch him. I'm fairly confident he's scum (plus I'm absolutely not lynching Guardian, and less suspcious of Shteven than I am of Mana (or Sarc or MBL, for that matter), and the game had stagnated, so...:p), so it seems like a good idea.

[AutumnEvenings]

Anyway, can we lynch InHim yet?

Why not Mana?

Honestly, I'm getting pretty ready to vote Shteven. I suspect him more than I suspect Glork, we'd get a lot of information from his lynch (no, that's not the only reason, yes, we'd get info from any lynch, yes, I think we'd get more from Shteven than from many others), doesn't look like many others share my suspicions of Mana (or MBL or Sarc), I sure as hell don't want us lynching Guardian, and, frankly, I'm sick of the back-and-forth they're generating.

I would consider voting inHim as well. I'm really ready for this day to be over.

My vote count:
4 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, TCS, ManaSpryte, InHim)
3 votes for Shteven (Glork, Sarcastro, Billy Twilight)
3 votes for Glork (Shteven, Guardian, Yogurt Bandit)
2 votes for InHim (Yosarian2, Jack)
1 vote for Guardian (BattleMage)
1 vote for ManaSpryte (AutumnEvenings)

1 player has not voted: MrBuddyLee.

[AutumnEvenings]

Why the vote for sarcastro?

'Cause he's evil.

unvote: Manaspryte, vote: Sarcastro

.

[AutumnEvenings]

I'd lynch TCS too.

[AutumnEvenings]

Worse things have happened, and I intend to hold {BattleMage} accountable for it tommorow, should we both survive. This means if I die it's totally his fault. Oh, and if I die

totally lynch Glork.

Ugh. Could you set up the WIFOM any better?

Anyway, sorry for not posting lately--my brother got married today, so things have been a little on the crazy-busy side. I hope to post more in depth soon, and I'm fully aware of the deadline.

I like my vote where it is, but I do feel it's important to secure a lynch. I'd move to MBL, ManaSpryte (although I only just now noticed that you're still a Townsperson, so I may need to rethink some things), TCS, and, probably, Shteven or InHim, if necessary.

I'm not too fond of the YB wagon, or the people on it. Glork is still difficult for me to read, but I feel no burning desire to lynch him. And I'm absolutely not lynching Guardian.

Pretty sure that's everyone with a vote on them.

[AutumnEvenings]

Bad vibe from Autumn--she doesn't think I'm teamscum, but repeatedly expresses willingness to lynch me on the offchance I'm an SK. Not really playing the odds there, and I sense a hint of scummy suspicion-entrenchment. Keep your eyes on her, gents.

Right...I want the SK dead. It's not an "off chance"--I have pretty high suspicions of you being the SK. You harped on the role a lot early on, plus the "SV was an odd kill choice" comment, plus wasn't it you telling the SK to kill scum? (I know you made a post saying "everyone this game is hunting scum", which raised my eyebrows, 'cause the SK wants

everyone

dead, so...yeah.) (Yep, just checked, it was you, post 1177) That seems like an SK tactic...make it seem like the SK is useful to the town.

True, he (you :p) hit scum last night, but really, I'd rather have one death per night than two, as I have no control over night kills and do have some over lynches, plus they're easier to analyze and stuff.

So yes, I want the SK dead, and yes, I think there's a high chance you're the SK, so, by the transitive property (or whatever--it's been ages since I was in high school), I want you dead.

<3

[AutumnEvenings]

1. Shteven - I think he is scum for silly play and inconsistencies. <snip>
inHimshallIbe - Ridiculous play and responses re: me. I feel like he is scum.
HackerHuck - In the shadows,

I've had this ridiculous bad feeling about him all game

.
BattleMage -

Terribly unsure about him

. Needs replacement. Average scumminess or lower.
<snip>
AutumnEvenings - Not sure about her. Creepy doubt. Average scumminess or lower.
<snip>
Yosarian2 - Unsure about him. Need a re-read. Yos2 can be very tricky as scum.
<snip>
Sarcastro - Not really scum hunting. Could definitely be teamscum.

If I had five dayvig kills that I had to use immediately, in order:
inHim
Shteven
Sarcastro
Yosarian2
AutumnEvenings

So...let me get this straight. You'd take out me (whom you list (like most), as "average scumminess or lower") and Yos ('cause he's good when he's scum?) over BattleMage, whom who are "terribly unsure of" (even though you still call him "average scumminess or lower"???) and especially HackerHuck, whom you've had a ridiculously bad feeling about?

Ugh. I'm 100% opposed to lynching a claimed doctor on Day Two, but...you're pushing it. First there was your sudden "lynch Mana now!!" insistence, even though you kept vote-hopping, and now this daykill list has me cringing (as does calling just about everyone "average scummy"), and...now (following, I might add, me saying I was less certain about Mana), you're saying you don't think Mana's evil after all, despite going after him so strongly? Did you not bother reading the thread

then

? (Also, could you be specific about what you found? It feels to me like you just want a reason to stop pressing him.)

Gah. I'm really uncertain about my vote right now--not because of Sarc
(though him being on V/LA is sucky), but because of my co-waggoners. (Specifically Shteven and Guardian. MBL wants anyone dead, so...)

I'm contemplating switching to Yogurt Bandit. At the very least, it might help us to better able understand the lynches that were going on yesterday.

*sigh*

[AutumnEvenings]

Leaving my vote--I feel worse about Sarc than I do about Yogurt. Not letting scummy players drive me off this wagon, especially as I had awful feelings about BeanBagBoy right at the very start. (I still maintain that Plessiez's non-play was a null-tell for him.) Sarc hasn't redeemed what BeanBagBoy did at all, and gives me the creeps too. :p