Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Guardian]

Glork wasn't nightkilled, and he hasn't identified all the scum for us.
Based on past experience, this means he is mafia.

Vote: Glork

unless he identifies all 5 scum for us.

[Guardian]

unvote vote: MBL

Willing to join a Glork wagon ^_^.
If you're wrong Glork, you're public enemy #1 because I know that you are able to psychically determine on command who is scum without effort .

[Guardian]

Mmm, it's not about the award, it's about him nailing scum in like 5 consecutive games I hosted in scumchat. And he didn't only completely find the scum, he didn't miss once, if he misses, he's likely scum imo.

No pressure Glork.

Btw, nice OMGUS vote MBL .

I am tempted to put my vote back on Glork though, as I demanded that he find all five scum and he only attempted to find one. Tsk tsk Glork.

Glork, why do you claim that trying to derive some information from the scum kills is worthless? It seems like a perfectly valid pursuit to me.

I would unvote, because up to this point in the game my posts have been made not without some humor and sarcasm, but MBL's counter vote is making me suspicious.

[Guardian]

In seriousness:

Glork, why do you claim that trying to derive some information from the scum kills is worthless? It seems like a perfectly valid pursuit to me.

[Guardian]

OK guys, first off I don't know why BM thinks I am scummy, buy I wasn't joking. I thought about this all day, and here is the plan. Glork voted MBL so we need to get off this stupid Albert wagon and all vote MBL. He will likely be scum, since Glork voted him. If he's not, then Glork is obvscum.

Any docs/cops out there, please target Glork n1 to make sure he is not scum and tricking us. This plan cannot fail. Thx.

ps: Glork find 4 more scum or u die.

But apparently that post would have been taken seriously. Lol. Thanks for the laughs .



In seriousness, what has Albert done to deserve such a wagon? Are 6 player wagons normal for this size of a game? I am of the opinion that wagons are inherently good to get discussion going, but am reluctant to put Albert at -2 so early.

MBL, it's odd that you are taking me seriously, but I am more suspicious of BM for the extent and furvor with which he has attacked me for an (imo) obvious joke.

unvote vote: BM

seems appropriate.

[Guardian]

Meh, I believe BM. I don't particularly think either of the two wagons are scum. BM was just being an idiot.

unvote

Meh... he could be scum though... I echo the sentiments of TCS here. I could definitely be convinced to get back on BM. At the moment I shall

vote: N9V

because he made one post with a vote and used someone else's reasoning for it... and got on near the end of a lynch-an-easy-target wagon.

One more day of hiking, adios!

[Guardian]

note, i do find Guardians departure from the hot wagon a bit scummy.

You find me getting off an easy target wagon and trying to look for people who I think might really be scum as scummy?

unvote vote: BM

I'd say that logic is BM acting more unusually than usual.

Um, I don't understand the Albert wagon at all, I don't think metaing BM every game is a good strategy, Glork may be scum (bad vibes)... How close is Albert to lynch now?? Anyways, not much to comment on imo as of yet.

Oh. YB is just new town imo, not new scum.

[Guardian]

Nothing substantive has happened for me to comment on imo.
Wagon BM please, my reason is in my prior post.

[Guardian]

YB is just noob town... FomS everyone suspicious of him.
Glork is being atypically overdefensive.
BM is still scum.
Albert is still town.

[Guardian]

Bored plus time = pbpa

Page 1

Albert laments death, and innocuously votes Johhan not that scummy imo...
nik bandwagons...
HH votes Albert right after... BM omgus's albert so does Johhan
bbb's post has actualy content.

scum:
???

Page 2

glork votes mbl for speculation...
I continue joking...
Shteven posts a content less post
HB points out some actual reasons why Albert may be scum. (answering his own question)
jack joins the vote albert for voting johhan wagon.. scummy
mbl votes me for my joke...
Glork answers my question about the nk specualation... I wonder if this is indeed a known scum tell. It makes some sense though.
BM ignores me saying I was joking and votes for me and gets into a spat with glork.

scum:
jack???
bm???
albert???

Page 3

mbl defends his page 2 vote on me and doesn't get that I was joking.
bbb's post is scummy to me for some reason tied to glork.
n9v gets on the easy wagon
so does shteven, but in a non scummy way.
bm says he got pm at the beginning of day. he could easily be lying.
bm continues thinking I am scum...
hm gets on bm wagon, makes sense...
bbb looks more townlike
hj votes bm and asks for a defense

scum:
bbb???
n9v??
bm?

Page 4

tcs laments bm's play
tcs and yb get on the wagon for bm's scummy oh just kill me ness.
jack admittedly fishes for yb
bm finds me scummy for unvoting him and looking for scum........
bbb & bm vote yb to try and get a scumbag.
jack accuses bbb of following
yb flops around

scum:
bm?
yb??
bbb??

Page 5

bbb gets on the bm wagon, hoppy...
bbb tries to throw suspicion on yb for interesting reasons...
glork looks at hj for his attitude towards bm, asking for a defense and whatnot
bt unvotes....
albert tries to start a counter wagon on hj
glork's list of potential scum is actually who I am thinking atm yb, bbb, albert, and hj.
albert flops around

scum:
bm???
yb??
bbb??
albert??
hj??
jack???
n9v???

Page 6

albert says he just tried to apply pressure to someone
yb votes albert for some ok reasons.
jack doesn't want a bm lynch
I vote BM for hist bad logic, but in retrospect pretty bad reasons.

Page 7&8

bbb unvotes, flopping again
shteven makes a long post, thinks albert is a good call
glork gets overdefensive
yb defends glork
mbl thinks yb is scummy
hj points out some flaws in the argument against him and suspects glork, and is frustrated with bm's play.
glork discusses hj
bm points out mbl's short post is scummy
yb makes a long post where he is suspicious of bm and albert
i point out my initial impressions... which I now disagree with. bm could still be scum though - asking to be killed is dumb.
bm trolls me.

scum:
mbl??
hj???
n9v??
bm??
glork???
albert??
jack???
yb???
bbb??

I've got to go so not much postgame analysis, but I wanted to post this before I got off... I think YB has been pretty town of the four I was suspicious of on page 6... hj too, and bbb. albert not so much though. his voting reasons and skittish behavior are telltale scum looks for me. I want more from n9v and nik0 definitely! prods? bm could definitely still be scum, asking for death is telltale. I now get the albert case and am suspicious of him.

ciao till later!

ps: i didn't have much time to edit this so sorry if it is wrong in places
pss: I have finished the dear old Camino de Santiago, and am loving relaxing in Spain!!!

[Guardian]

All the votes on the Vote Count are scattered.. I predict there will not be a lynch until page 15 and beyond..

Glork, What is an Inkling?

This is a scummy post.

^This

I interpreted this post as you saying MBL's post was scummy. No?

lol before i die, can somebody explain the scumtell i have committed?
apart from pointing out the logical fallacy of YB, i havent actually said anything. lol
man, id hate to be the remaining protown players, when this happy wagon turns sour

OK, my bad, you don't request death, only come close to it by insinuating that it was enivitable and getting all accepting of it and saying that you'd hate to be the remaining pro town players.

...

If you aren't the play for today, Albert indeed looks like an ok play, as does YB. I would not be upset with putting some pressure on Glork, too, his extreme defensiveness was odd for me. Although he did defend me earlier <3.

[Guardian]

no lol. i was agreeing with MBL,

that YOUR post was scummy

.

All the votes on the Vote Count are scattered.. I predict there will not be a lynch until page 15 and beyond..

Glork, What is an Inkling?

This is a scummy post.

^This

I interpreted this post as you saying MBL's post was scummy. No?

lol before i die, can somebody explain the scumtell i have committed?
apart from pointing out the logical fallacy of YB, i havent actually said anything. lol
man, id hate to be the remaining protown players, when this happy wagon turns sour

OK, my bad, you don't request death, only come close to it by insinuating that it was enivitable and getting all accepting of it and saying that you'd hate to be the remaining pro town players.

...

If you aren't the play for today, Albert indeed looks like an ok play, as does YB. I would not be upset with putting some pressure on Glork, too, his extreme defensiveness was odd for me. Although he did defend me earlier <3.

Bolding mine.

BattleMage, that wasn't my post, that was YB's. You are just throwing accusations around.

BM is looking really really really scummy to me.

If anyone wants to ask me any questions about my posts feel free to, I honestly don't see more of an attack on me than 'he feels scummy'.
I also feel that my pbpa was mostly ignored.

Leaving Santiago de o Compestela tomorrow to return to Madrid. Spain rocks!

[Guardian]

/me still thinks BM is scum. TCS might be, I think the catch is meaningful, to an extent.

[Guardian]

Jack, I am completely clueless as to why, but ok. I try and post almost every time I read a game thread... those were my only thoughts at the time.

[Guardian]

HackerHuck finally explained a reason to think I am scummy... Thank you for that. I now understand why Glork got "overdefensive"... One person's suspicions lead to another's, etc.

The reason my posts are inconsistent is because I am not sure of my suspicions at this point and while I mill it over during the day my mind changes on things.

I still think BM is as likely as anyone to be scum though. Albert and YB if I had to say one way or the other are town.

[Guardian]

unvote: BM vote: Shteven

BM is probably just being unreadable scummy town anyways... I think there is still a chance he is scum but...

I did a reread of Shteven's posts alone... Many times he had a not very townlike attitude. As TCS suggested, I am taking it to the bank.

[Guardian]

BM, you are becoming incredibly hard to tolerate in this game. You have attacked me twice for moving off your wagon and looking for more likely scum candidates. There is a point at which being attacking of everyone and unreadable should be sacrificed for realizing that my actions are legitimate attempts at finding scum... You finding it scummy that I acknowledge that you may not be scum... just doesn't make sense to me.

[Guardian]

Two things.

First point: While I was walking in Spain and saw I was in a game with Glork, I was like, nice, we can just follow Glork and win the game. To be honest Glork, I think you are a darned good mafia catcher. I then realized that my plan was a bit over the top, because Glork isn't perfect and he could be scum. I then thought my idea was actually kind of funny, so I thought I would post it anyway, to see if I would get some good laughs/reactions.

So in retrospect, BM doesn't seem all that amazingly over the top to me. Just normal BM over the top. I find him scummy for other reasons though, which leads into my

Second point: In YOS joining, I advise people to read the few posts that I and YB had right before he joined. I don't want them to get swallowed in all the noise.

[Guardian]

which?

[Guardian]

Basically, it is really weird, even beyond BM weird, that he keeps voting me whenever I move off his wagon thinking that he might not be scum. It might even mean that he is scum.

[Guardian]

I don't know, call me crazy, but YB and I have been in three games together recently, and based on his performance in the others I am getting a very town read on him. I think that is also happening for him vis a vis me.

I like how when I unvoted BM and voted N9V because I saw what he was doing days ago, BM gets away with being suspicious of me for it, yet when everyone else points out that N9V looks like a good play, it suddenly is.

TCS, it isn't me being OMGUSy, it is BM not making any sense at all. I unvote him, acknowledge that he may not be scum, do independent analysis and look for more scum targets.... And then he finds me as scum for it. I would be equally frustrated if he did this to any other player in my situation.

I would join the N9V wagon, but I would probably be found scummy for that, too .

I am going out for errands now, more content later.

[Guardian]

YB, I don't want to talk about an ongoing game but I feel you misrepresented me... I feel I have a read on you; did I not pick you at as scum in that game? You aren't acting the same here, and I think you are acting town.

Also, if you're town, you should join wagons because you feel they're right and not overly worry about what others think.

I agree with this to an extent, you obviously should keep your own suspicions of who you think is townie and not be heavily influenced by others, but voicing them publicly is a different matter because I disagree with your next point.

Courage is townish, self-preservation is scummy.

I actually really disagree here, as a matter of mafia game theory. I may be wrong that this is the optimal style of play, but a townie should show that he is townie as much as possible, by actively posting and being suspicious of others yes, but also by preventing himself from looking suspicious to others. I think it is in the best interests of every player in mafia (with the possible exception of pro-town power roles) to look very townie to pretty townie. The players that slip up when they post a lot are then scum. Again, I may be wrong that this is good play, but that is where I am coming from.


Yos, I feel like you and others are straw-manning me here... I am annoyed with him for voting me for scum hunting. Like I said, if he did this to any other player who did the same things I did, I would be equally frustrated with him.

[Guardian]

Yos, I, at least (xD), read your posts. I missed BM saying that; I didn't know that I was misrepresenting him and will now reconsider my lingering suspicions of him. I did, for the record, get off his wagon twice . Also, I reiterate that I agree with what Yos said about Glork treating BM unfairly. I could reasonably have been serious.

I am busy tonight, so no more detail than that at the moment.

[Guardian]

Autumn, I don't really want to bother going back and finding the posts, but I think someone asked me a similar question earlier and my answer was and is that at that time I was still in conflict about my thoughts on the players.
I had had some opinions before doing the bpba, but I tried to objectively reconsider them, and one consequence of doing so was that I thought maybe I was misreading YB and he could be scum. I continued to think it over, and now I am getting much more of a neutral/town read on him.

TCS, have you ever, at any time in the game, provided any reason for being suspicious of me, never mind voting for me, never mind wanting a wagon on me? I did a quick re-read of your posts and I could find none whatsoever.

[Guardian]

Nope, no particular reason.

(shrug)

[Guardian]

Guardian

is another player who's driving me insane. After making his first post (voting Glork for not catching all 5 scum already), he then twice followed Glork's vote (onto MBL and then BM), which I thought was really odd. I didn't like post 170--people who say there's nothing to comment on aren't helping things at all. And there's the weird switching all over the place on YougurtBandit in the space of like 5 posts, none of which featured any new posts by YB. Can't read you, don't like it.

You not being able to read me is a good thing for me whatever my alignment is. You are suspicious of me enough that I likely won't get NK'd but are not suspicious of me enough so that I will get lynched today. I used to think it was in everyone's best interests to look really, really pro-town all the time... but MeMe has begun to convince me otherwise in another thread. So go ahead, and not be able to read me. That's great for my team (the town).

Glork's reasoning is going a bit over the border of where MeMe would say I want people to think I am alignment wise, and all I can say is that the two posts you are FoS ing me for are both noise. I don't see any signal in either of them, other than restatement of my previous points. Sorry for making them?

InHim, of course I am riding the fence on BM... his posts are scummy, he makes it hard to follow his logic, yet then I think he is not scum. He has been an incredible frustration to me in this game in terms of discerning alignment.

Oh, and

FoS: TCS

I don't really find being suspicious of someone with absolutely no reason as scummy. I don't even find voting someone without any good reason as particularly scummy. But somewhere between voting, joining a wagon, and trying to drive a wagon and make it bigger, I draw the line and say that TCS trying to drive a wagon on me when he has no reason to think I am scummy... is scummy.

Schteven still doesn't seem like a bad vote, his case on Albert is bad, and he seems a bit OMGUSy. Albert's actions in pages like 13-16 are begining to make me think that he really is not that bad a lynch for today, though, especially after claiming vanilla. If we don't lynch him today, he will hang around the town like an unwanted ghost and plague us until he does die.

[Guardian]

I think TCS is just being deliberately scummy, it seems like something he'd do. Doesn't mean he isn't actually scum.

Jack is correct, I often act scummy on purpose.

OK, so

first

, you propose a metagame lynch on BattleMage because you are incredibly frustrated about how he acts unreadable, and

second

, you say that,

just like BattleMage

, you act deliberately scummy so that people can't get a read on you. This is more than a little scummy hypocrisy.

HOS: TCS

.

I still get a town vibe from YB. I always get a town vibe from him though. Unless he replaces obvscum. Yeah. .

[Guardian]

Jack, I will respond to this quickly, though I don't want to at this point do a re-read of the posts.

From what you've quoted, he apparently did backtrack. He said he was going to do it randomly, then selected TCS first for specific reasons.

Two points though (wow, I realize I always make two points. Never three. Never one. Always two points. ):
1)Is backtracking a scumtell? It would appear that is would be, I'm guessing.

2)I am kind of inclined to believe that his is a problem of diction and not a problem of necessarily being scum. A few years ago, I used to say I would pick something randomly, and then pick whatever I had the best reason to pick. "I will pick out some random movie and we can watch it." This does not mean that I am going to in fact, role a die, and pick a random movie. This means that I am going to pick a movie among those available, using whatever criteria I want to use, and then we shall watch that movie.

That being said, he then tried to defend that he was doing MBL's randomly. That goes against what I thought he meant when he did a "random" pbpa of TCS.

So, Jack, I think the backtracking is indeed scummy. Despite my "feeling" about YB, that is a point against him in my book.

I want YB to fully explain his actions here.

[Guardian]

I didn't ask for, or suggest, a metagame lynch on BM for acting unreadable. His trying to be unreadable is fine with me up to the point where he sacrifices logic for being unreadable. I was/am suspicious of him because I thought he was acting

scummy

. TCS

did

suggest a metagame lynch on BM for acting unreadable, then went off and decided to act unreadable.

Anyone else see how I followed TCS in going for Schteven, and then TCS started trying to make a wagon on me? Ie, if I get lynched and I show up town, he could be "oh, he just followed me, nice."

Putting my vote where my mouth is:

unvote vote: TCS

.

[Guardian]

Oh. Noting that, my case on TCS is scummy as hell. Great. So, in sum, we are both hypocrites .

[Guardian]

YB, to be honest, my logic was hypocritical and scummy as hell. :[. I need to take a step back from this game, I will think and post later tonight.

[Guardian]

One last thought - TCS, NK speculation being scummy or no, If I were the SK, I almost certainly would have axed Glork. Like it or not, that's just true. I am more afraid that people will become convinced I am a mafia member, which I am also not.

[Guardian]

I'm not going to say it wasn't; it was. I didn't realize that at the time I was making my arguments. Way to say I am just giving up, that's BS.

[Guardian]

And TCS, also, why in hell would I give up at lynch -7. If this is just a ploy please say so and start playing normally, you are just looking more and more scummy to me.

[Guardian]

Ok, I took an hour or two to think. As others pointed out, TCS has been doing this all game... driving wagons for no reason is just bad play.

I can't agree more with Glork on Albert. Fishing for claims is horrible for the town. Albert, like I said earlier, is an appealing play for the town if only because he has already claimed vanilla.

Schteven could, as I noticed earlier, easily be scum.

AE, I am extremely confused about what good play is for town. I had thought it was being very, very town (which got me, as vanilla, night killed in another forum game ), then in another game MeMe had me kind of convinced that it was being hard to read, then here people attack me for changing my behavior to follow MeMe's suggestions. I really need to think this over. Sorry that I'm undecided on this, that's just where my thoughts are right now.

TCS I find very suspicious, but I don't at this point feel like I want him to be lynched today. Schteven I could see being "the play". Albert I have little qualms about because he made an unforced vanilla townie claim earlier, he is not contributing much to the town, and has given us many reasons to think we are scum.

unvote vote: Albert

seems right, then. I could reconsider this and like a Schteven lynch better.

[Guardian]

edit by way of post.

[Guardian]

Why I think Albert is scum:

He claimed vanilla townie with no one asking for it, from a mostly random wagon.
He has been following people around starting counter wagons.
He admitted that he may be the best play/a good play for today after my pbpa, and giving up hope like that seems to me like a scumtell.
He then started a wagon on me for the sole purpose of obtaining a claim, which is a horrible idea.
He has been waving about a lot, maybe trying to deflect attention.

Lynching him is a "best worst case scenario" (am I using the term correctly?), and I think it is even better than that. Not only has he claimed vanilla townie, but he is not at the bottom of anyone's suspicions list that I have heard; he is a claimed vanilla that, if not mafia, the mafia will let hang around for the whole game to try and get him lynched later. It really seems to me like he is the play for today, and think it is likely he will turn up scum.

HH, how is this wagon oportunistic? At all?

InHim, sorry for being dense, but what exactly are you not in favor of us letting me off for?

[Guardian]

Also, I would like to note that I think all the arguments made that claimed Guardian was a hypocrite (even though you tricked him into believing it himself) as bullshit. TCS attacked BM for being scummy on purpose, and then did it himself. THAT is hypocrisy. Guardian attacked TCS for his hypocritical actions. He did not have a problem with people acting scummy on purpose, just those who preach against it then don't follow their own advice. That is NOT being a hypocrite.

Well, the thing is, I was acting scummy on purpose. Then I said that TCS acting scummy on purpose himself and preaching against BM doing so is hypocritical. So, I was acting scummy on purpose myself, and chastising someone for chastising someone for acting scummy on purpose. So, me acting scummy on purpose wasn't hypocritical, it was me attacking TCS, when the attack on TCS itself was the same behavior that I was attacking TCS for. If I am still wrong on this and Glork tricksy'd me, let me know. Thanks for defending me though <3.

btw, I think I outlined my thoughts on Albert pretty helpfully >:].

[Guardian]

I started a re-read and only got up to page 13...wow. Its long. I'm losing the will to continue.

Mod: will you hate me as much as the players if I asked for a replacement ?

Why are you losing will? Is coming up with cases on people you know not to be your scum buddies difficult? You could at least help us find the SK.

[Guardian]

Well, theoretically, you

do

know that you are town. And town serve the town by hunting for scum! So why not get through the second half of the re-read and contribute?

You can

do

it!

[Guardian]

All this fatalistic requesting for replacement then deciding not to etc. does nothing to convince me you are town, by the way, so if you indeed are, then do something about it.

[Guardian]

<snip>
I'm not asking you to believe I'm town.
<snip>

Albert, if you're not even asking us to, then why should we? :\. Statements like that really don't help you out at all.

[Guardian]

Ok, that makes me really happy with my vote on you. I don't take him as being sarcastic there at all.

[Guardian]

Guardian. Answer this question. Did you disagree with TCS acting scummy on purpose? Did you attack him

because

he was acting on purpose? These are yes or no questions, do not answer in any other way.

1) No.
2) No, not for that alone. Not primarily for that, either. In a word, no.

You are probably going to find some contradiction here or whatever, but those are my initial thoughts on what my true answers for your questions are. You caught me as scum on scumchat earlier, catch me as town here ;\.

[Guardian]

My thoughts:
1) I'd have to go back and look at the wagon on Albert when he claimed, but I'm pretty sure there was definitely something more substantial than "random" on that wagon. At the very least, he had Point 2 against him at that point.

OK, but his claim was unprovoked.

2) This coming from a guy who disagreed with MBL on whether self-preservation or courage is townielike. While I agree that wagon mentalities are generally bad for a town (unless done extremely well -- see CES/Glork in Cultural Revolution Mafia), you don't focus on that aspect. You specifically cite "counterwagons" as if to make Albert's behavior out of self-preservation -- which now, apparently, is a bad thing. I'd like Guardian to explain this point a little better.

Arguing why you are town as town is OK. Arguing that you should not be lynched, because you read your role PM, and you are town, is OK. This is what I mean by self preservation. Lynching random other people because you know you are town and they might be scum is NOT OK. Albert is just trying to distract people from himself, to the detriment of the town, or to help his team if he is scum.

3) Eh. I can't remember if I said so in this game or in another, but the "eh, I'm probably the right play" comment is split nearly 50-50 between town/scum, and might lean slightly towards town. Your "tell" in this case is flawed/wrong. I know at least in my experience, the only times I can ever remember saying this was when I was a Townie. (See Lights Out 2.)
If you want the proper pro-town attitude, here's me straight out of LO2:

I don't want "safe" lynches. I want lynches on scum.


PotS' mistake strikes me as an honest accident. Now granted, PotS could be pulling the wool over my eyes, but I don't like when people push for the "safe" lynch because they have nothing better to do.

D1 'safe lynches' are usually crap. Just sayin'.

I remember him using the words "good lynch"? I could be wrong there. I lay out a case against him, and he is all, "oh yeah, well, ok good points go ahead and lynch me." That is the opposite of the self preservation I argued for, and strikes me as very scummy.

4) This is the best point you have against Albert. But he has already explained himself rather thoroughly. What do you think of his "playstyle" defense and his subsequent promise to try to do better?

I will re-read it to see if there is any merit to it, but it strikes me like as if I said, in response to recent suspicion, me saying "Oh, well it is just my playstyle that is making you think I am scummy. But I'm not." Like, if there is good reason to take my playstyle into consideration, that is a different story, but it strikes me more like Albert is using it just as an excuse. Maybe he's town though. He still strikes me as being the one who is stretching though.

5) This is not only completely vague, but entirely unsusbtantiated. What specific instances of "hand waving" do you think Albert was doing, and why was he doing it to "deflect attention." From whom? To where?

This is basically me reiterating how he is starting counterwagons and is trying to throw suspicion anywhere but on himself.

642 -- 'fatalistic requesting replacement then deciding not to etc. does nothing to convince me that you're town'
Does it do anything to convince you that he's scum?

I could see either side posting just as he did. I just don't want him to think that his stick-to-it-iveness is going to convince me for one second that he is town.

Post 680, Guardian is "really happy" with his vote because.... beacuse Albert misinterpreted YB's intent behind his post?

I felt YB wasn't joking, and Albert is grasping at straws to try and put suspicion on the people who might draw attention instead of himself.

So... yes, I think that Guardian has been stretching... but maybe not as scum; maybe just as an overconfident/overeager townie. I'm still hung up on the switch from "Albert town" to "Albert scum" in Post 176 and 178. If Guardian is scum, he picked a really good time to make a complete turn-around. I'm going to leave my vote on him for the time being, but whether it stays there or moves back to Shteven bascially depends on his (and others') responses to this post.

Glork, do you find Albert scummy? If so, doesn't it strike you as odd that I find Albert

and

Shteven scummy, and that I would be scum? I mean maybe this is WIFOM because thier allignments are not confirmed, but I am just trying to find scum like all the other town players...

If I see something I think is scummy, I point it out. I think Albert has been scummy, so I am pointing out the instances of that. My bad? I am not super confident in my scum hunting abilities; he could be town. But I read him as scum.

Look me in the eyes. I am pro-town.

Glork, why are you sure BM is town now? TCS? What makes you make the turnaround?

[Guardian]

Unvote, Vote: Shteven

... I'm not terribly thrilled by Guardian's response, but I'm more confident that Shteven

is town

than Guardian.

Freudian slip? I have seen those work as scum tells before.... O.O.

[Guardian]

@#$%!

Why does everyone keep up with this mantra of me acting 'deliberately scummy'? What kind of fucked-up groupthink is this? Earlier in the game, I voted Guardian and refused to give a reason for it

this alone is not scummy, and whoever says so is lying to you

. Anything else you find scummy, you should

vote

me for, because I wasn't doing it on purpose.

When you say something like this, do you really need to ask?

Jack is correct, I often act scummy on purpose.

=o. TCS, I don't agree with lynch all liars. But backtracking is scummy :[ ]. Also, your thoughts on BM please?

HH, YB is my buddy. Sorry? He could be scum. I hope he's town. I think he's town. ;\.

I could move my vote onto Schteven, I did a quick re-read of his posts and at this point he could definitely be lurker scum... To be honest my scumdar needs some upgrades though :\.

[Guardian]

I'm not going to automatically assume that this is a scum tell as players in another game did....

But BM is posting in other games, but not here. So while he may have exams and such, why did he choose to lurk in

this

game, and not lurk in a few others? I would like BM to explain this.

[Guardian]

Albert... There is something called circumstantial evidence, and I feel that your are

blindly ignoring it

for no good reason.

[Guardian]

Glork, you make a good case. I never stated my case on Shteven, but I agree with some of your reasoning there.

I am not convinced that Albert is not a better play though...

I am tempted to post "I'll show you vote hopping!" and vote Shteven, lol, but like I said, I still like my vote where it is.

[Guardian]

Btw, I take full credit for the activity/length of day one. The only game I am in which is falling inactive is my newbie game ;(.

[Guardian]

I don't understand why you find Shteven

scummier

than Guardian

It's cuz I'm town, and Shteven might not be.

[Guardian]

[

n

o

r

eal

c

ontent]
YB is town.
I am happy with an Albert or Shteven lynch at the moment. I believe Albert is scum.
[/nrc]

[Guardian]

Conclusion = ?

You draw interesting links between me and Albert. That slip of the tongue i made is very interesting, it would imply that Albert and I were scum buddies was it not just a slip of the tongue...

You then say I am likely the SK. I don't get the argument there. Well, like, I kind of get it, but at this point in mafia I'm sure I understand what SK tells are, and I have never been the SK on the forum so I don't know what the change in strategy would be like. I just defended against being mafia because for me mafia tells are associations with other players, and also being mafia is more likely than being SK so it's better to defend against.

One thing I am happy to note is your defense of YB. I agree with you there.

[Guardian]

Now that AM mafia is over, I can say I"m much less suspicious of Guardian.

Cool. I'm still the same suspicious of you, but yeah... people always think I am suspicious for playing how I normally would play. It is annoying.

[Guardian]

I really get the feeling that Guardian's bandwagon is becoming the common Day 1 lynch that happens in most games and doesn't result in dead scum, because it's the naturally scummy person who did a few outrageous things that everyone jumped on. I really feel bad about his wagon.

QFT!

Go ahead and check out AM mafia, which just finished, where I found both scum at lylo using superb logic and was lynched anyways .

unvote vote: Schteven

I've made it clear that I think either Albert or Schteven is a good play, and I believe I've laid out reasons for both previously. I would be willing to switch back to Albert later. TCS is an appealing play to me, too.

[Guardian]

Guardian:
And while this is probably not a valid scumtell, I'd like to mention, AGAIN, that my name is spelled Shteven. There is no C. Guardian, I have already corrected you on this once, and asked you to spell it correctly. Please revote for me with the correct spelling of my name. I know voting is usually fairly forgiving (you can vote for people's acronyms, etc) but I'm really starting to wonder if this is intentional. Guardian, please respond saying you have read this paragraph.

I can't mentally pronounce your name without a c. I will try to remember that it does not have one, though. Sorry, I get quite frustrated when people misspell Guardian (Gaurdian, of all things...).

unvote vote Shteven

[Guardian]

Johhan and Plessiez are getting away with blatant lurking, by the way. Not sure if they're scum, but they are definitely not contributing much.

[Guardian]

BattleMage, two things:

I find it

incredibly

hard to believe you re-read all my posts, as once YB came under attack I have

consistently

and

repeatedly

said that I find him to be pro-town.

FoS: BM

for the drive-by post, and obviously lacking "re-read", if a re-read even happened.

Secondly, except in the case of YB who has been under heavy attack, I believe that it is

extremely

bad play to say some random player is probably pro-town, as all that does is help the scum decide who to night kill. I slip from that sometimes accidentally, but if I haven't done it, that is why.

MoS, thanks for being a light of reason... You could be scum being a hero, but your logic makes sense, and does come to the right conclusion in this case.

[Guardian]

Wow. Not knowing where one's vote is indicates to me that more attention needs to be paid to the game. It also indicates to me a desire to lynch the easiest candidate, and no possession of true suspicions.

I think I am going to go ahead and

unvote: Shteven vote: BM

. This is the third time I believe I have unvoted someone and voted BM. He just keeps getting me to come back .

[Guardian]

Reread BM's recent posts, and my posts. Does he know what is going on at all? Does he have any true suspicions?

Is my vote on him an OMGUS as he says, or is he ignoring the logic?

Vote appropriately. BM is scum.

[Guardian]

Umm, prod BM, because he is doing both. He is completely ignoring what's going on, AND is being calculating in doing so, imo. If he has time to post that he is not ignoring my arguments, he could respond to them.

[Guardian]

Man, Glork you

really

want Shteven lynched, huh?

What do you think about BM obviously not having any real suspicions and then ignoring my attack on him?

[Guardian]

Welcome Sarcastro!

p.s. are you scum?

[Guardian]

Jack's play here reminds me of AM Mafia where he fooled three other townies at endgame, and MAD mafia, where he lurked + actively lurked to an easy win...

YB you could be scum, but I don't get that read, and I am on the same wavelength with you here.



Yos, I maintain that I would be equally suspicious of BM if his actions were against anyone else. His lack of attention to the game, disregarding of my arguments, and not having any real suspicions is ridiculous, and in my opinion it is scummy.

Also, I really didn't want to bring this up, but BM is notorious for always being town, and wanting to be scum. He then really, really wanted to not be replaced into the game. I don't put

much

stock into this, but it is there.

[Guardian]

If by YB is town imo and I am town, then yes, I am trying to make it look like we are in cahoots...

In terms of linked as mafia with him, obviously not, I don't want to be linked as a possible scum pair of anyone - I just really feel YB is town and a lot of people disagree.

[Guardian]

I am posting the following in V/LA and in my sig and in all my games: Hey guys, I will be at the beach with

LA: July 1 - July 8

, I may post some more tonight or tomorrow morning, but after that for a week I will have limited access or no access. There may be places to access the internet at the beach, and I will try to get on once or twice, especially in the games with strict deadlines, but the main purpose of vacation is to recreate and be more detached etc., so if I don't get a chance to post that is why. I ask that I please not be replaced anywhere, I will be super active again when I get back, I will just be gone for this time period. Any games with night/pm-choices, I have pre-sent them in where applicable. See you in a week!

[Guardian]

Stop lynching YB I'm sure he's town his play is very very consistent with YB town play.

Lynch Jack, or BM, or Shteven. They all feel like scum. Crucify Albert for claiming vanilla earlier.

The beach is awesome!!!

[Guardian]

MoS, you asked us to be suspicious of you just then. Scummy.

Also, what the hell were you asking me for vaious "first things that came to mind" the other week before Mosfaire? Just wondering.

Jack, have you ever played with YB? I have like 3 or 4 times and he seems like town YB.

[Guardian]

^Scummy as hell.

Add Albert back to my list. I feel pretty good about my list, can we not lynch YB please, I think he just got mislynched in another game I am in with him...
Maybe Ill have more to say in a few days when I return from the beach.

Maybe not though, I am thinking of changing my playstyle to never provide arguments anymore, I only get lynched for them ;O.

[Guardian]

To your and everyone else's satisfaction? Probably not.

Or if I could, I don't want to put the effort in to do so.

[Guardian]

Sarc, basically, his long (often wrong and/or pointless) analyses, his vote switching, his vote confirmation and then switching around, and him finding people who no one else thinks are scum to be scum are all consistent with him being town.

He is much more lurky and bandwagony when he is scum, in my experience.

Albert, Shteven, Jack, and BM all look much more appealing to me.

[Guardian]

FOS: Albert

for this last exchange.

FOS: HackerHuck

. I really don't like him in the last few pages. Something has felt a bit off from him all game, I need to do a complete re-read, but I think I may be on to something here.

But wait, Shteven is scum:

What I find especially odd is that both Yogurt and Guardian are throwing away their votes on someone who has only 1 vote. Either one of them could give the other the 6th vote. They'd still have to ride out until the 10th, but honestly, I don't see why they haven't ended this yet. Maybe it would look bad, but even so, I'd do it if I was them...

You find it odd we are scumhunting instead of bandwagoning, and find it odd that we are voting people we find to be scummy rather than voting for the largest wagon other than ourselves? And in our situation, you would vote the other player just to make the wagon larger?? Even in my situation, when I really doubt that YB is scum!?

BM is not off my radar, but is no longer at the top of it.

unvote: BM vote: Shteven

.

MoS - not game related - you never told me what those 5 "first things that would come into my mind" were.

Autumn - I noticed you weren't here (even while I wasn't here, heh), but I don't particularly think you are scum, so I didn't see a reason to say anything about it.

[Guardian]

Albert just exploded and OMGUS'd 3 people. I am tempted to vote.

You WAY overreacted. And are still doing so.

[Guardian]

I'm actually starting to get cold feet about this wagon. It was very sudden, and has drawn people at least one person from each of the other two big wagons.

I think I'm going to stick it out for the sake of ensuring that an informational lynch happens today, but I'd only give about a 30% chance that Albert is scum.

qft.

Except I never actually placed the vote, and I encourage you to move back to Shteven.

If anything *shock, ghasp* these activities are starting to make me less sure about YB. There is a slight chance he is fooling me in this game...

[Guardian]

Nice mind meld simulpost o.O.

[Guardian]

But is it more likely than, say, a

Shteven

lynch, to get us dead scum?

By your own admission, no. So why not get people to vote Shteven instead?


Eh... Albert could be scum. But I don't have the good scummy vibe from him I was getting earlier. I am not liking YB nearly as much if Albert turns up town.

[Guardian]

Two people from each wagon, please vote Shteven. We can

do

it.

Failing that, I guess I am going to have to re-read and (potentially) reconsider, and figure out which of the two leading candidates has a better shot at being scum.

At least they are both claimed vanilla -- if either gets lynched, and is town, the mafia won't be able to keep them around for the rest of the game tempting us day after day with their lynches...

[Guardian]

True, two people from each wagon, and someone who isn't voting, then...

[Guardian]

Right now I like Shteven scum more than YB or Albert scum; that isn't to say I am sure he is scum.

As for reasons -- this thread gets my attention tonight, some general feelings on all three, at the least, will be forthcoming.

[Guardian]

Albert, you have posted a heck of a lot in the past few days - but you haven't posted your main suspects or good reasons why you are suspicious of them for quite some time -- at the very least, you have not done so concisely and in one area.

If you could do that for me, it would help me decide.


@Sarc: Yes, I have defended YB all game...

I have a few reasons for

considering

supporting YB's lynch. 1) I have the gut feeling/worry that I have been terribly wrong and helping YB scum. 2) I don't particularly like this bandwagon on Albert, and I don't feel sure that he will turn up scum, though he definitely could. 3) YB got this bandwagon on Albert started, and again, I don't like the wagon that much.

More tonight.

[Guardian]

Albert, thanks for responding to my (and MBL's) request -- but like MBL said, I want

reasons

for your top suspects.

[Guardian]

Albert, thanks for responding to my (and MBL's) request -- but like MBL said, I want

reasons

for your top suspects.

I like how you're sidling up to MBL right now. I wouldn't get too cosy, since you're up next after Albert hangs.

WHAT

? "Sidling up to MBL"!? All I did was acknowledge that MBL and I are asking the same questions. I have never (I believe) commented on MBL's likelihood to be scum or town.

[Guardian]

No, you have like 7 hours. Even doing your top 2 or 3 suspicions would be great, and that will take 30-60 minutes tops. Unless you are going out tonight, do it.

I will be deciding who to vote on in a few hours -- your arguments could swing me, if no one else.

[Guardian]

Also, Albert, why would you say this about someone you think is likely scum:

How can BillyTwilight and Glork's posts not convince you ?

Shouldn't you be viewing Glork's posts with healthy suspicion if you find him scummy?

[Guardian]

thinking really hard, YB is probably not scum either. In that case it would be too late to catch scum anyway.

These are my initial sentiments. Re-read commencing.

[Guardian]

I am not going to give reasons now, but from re-read, my suspicions are:

scum?+:
glork
xyz
bm - sk?
Sarc

scum?:
hh
yb
others...

The first group I feel better about, the second group (that I just decided not to post the entirety of) I really don't feel strongly about, with HH being the strongest.

From re-reading, and thinking objectively, I think I have sucked this game. . YB has exhibited the behaviors that I said were his scum tells, and what I thought were his town tells are not that reliable... I also really don't like his claim (even how he claimed) or his actions in the past few pages.



One thing, for the town's benefit -- I think BM is the sk/scum for these reasons: his lurking after suspicion fell off him, his pushing suspicion onto people for bad reasons, and his deep sadness at being replaced - sk tell for BM, I would believe.

The first two are the important ones.


Glork I also feel pretty good about, for reasons others already stated.


I think I have found one or two new people (ie not YB) who I think are likely town. I am not going to paint a target on their backs for the scum though.

Anyways,

unvote: Shteven vote: YogurtBandit

.

I don't feel great about YB or Albert as being scum, but I feel slightly better about YB. The wagon on Albert just now was crazy, also I think Albert will be more helpful in the following days. I still love you lots YB <3. Please be scum.

As MBL pointed out (stop reading my mind MBL, freaking me out...) we have 16 or so hours, so we do have some time to change our minds or whatnot.

If YB does get lynched and turns up town, I am going to feel like a complete fool for switching to him after defending him so hard, and for not trusting my read... But then again, Albert could also be town... damnit he could be scum, though. They both could be... Anyways, I think, I *think* Albert may be having more helpful analysis, so there you go.

Albert, if you're scum I hate you.

meh.

[Guardian]

AE won't be back until after deadline. Someone should switch boats before deadline.

Otherwise:
a)No one switches and Albert gets lynched solely because he was first
OR
b)We leave the decision up to BM

I don't particularly like either scenario.

[Guardian]

Darn it, they are both probably town....

Albert I think more probably but.... gah.

[Guardian]

1) You are incorrect.
2) No one will feel like it, people are afraid of a no lynch at deadline.

[Guardian]

Sarc -- actually, go for it. Then YB will be first to reach 8 .

[Guardian]

Shteven, how about I get off, and you get on? That way your concerns will be gone? .

[Guardian]

mmkay so let's overanalyze the mod here. A is Albert, (Y)B is Yogurt.

The situation where Albert is lynched is in red (

the current situation in the game

), and there is an exclaimation mark (happiness).

The situation where YB is lynched is in blue (

a change to the current in game situation

), and there is no exclamation mark.

The mod would clearly be more excited to have Albert be lynched. What does this mean?



I was half joking in the above, but wonder if it has any merit? o.O

[Guardian]

HH, if you like Sarcastro's suggestion, and are not liking YB's behavior, then why not vote him? Or me? Or even unvote and put your vote back on Albert?

Do you want Albert lynched or YB?

[Guardian]

I'm going to say again, for clarity and emphasis:

I think I was wrong about YB. If being in error, and not being stubborn is a scumtell, then I have committed it... I see no reason that it should be.

I now think they are both about as likely to be scum, with Albert being more helpful, slightly. I don't trust my read on YB anymore.

I will reiterate -- Albert, if you are scum, I hate you. If Albert gets lynched and is scum, then people are going to pressure me because it is easy (and perhaps there appears to be good reason to?).

I still feel that my vote on YB is in the right place, though. Whether or not people find me scummy for it, I think it is in the right place.

[Guardian]

Hm. It's not 12 noon tomorrow. W/e that's cool.

MoS was scum. That throws me for a loop, honestly. Thanks SK!

vote: BM

for reasons expressed yesterday. I, like BillyTwilight, note his decision NOT to take a stand on the two wagons.



I am very happy Albert was town. I think YB is probably town as well, but I felt Albert was more likely to be and while we don't know if YB was a "right" lynch wagon, he certainly wasn't a wrong one !

[Guardian]

If Albert was scum, I'd have likely been heavily pressured and mislynched today. I didn't want that. .

[Guardian]

You are right. I guess that I have a bit too much of a survivor mentality in games .

BM, explain not voting at deadline yesterday.

[Guardian]

Sarcastro,

I am not scum. Are you, though?
A BM lynch on day 2 never a bad thing*.
Unvote and vote BM please.

xoxo,
Guardian



*when he is scum

[Guardian]

I was one of the people to single out ~N9V~. I may have cast the first vote for him.

I disregarded him though, especially when people pressured others to "not waste votes". . A la BM. Which is among the many reasons I want to see people voting him.

FOS: all the people on my list as of dusk yesterday

, but I only have one vote and don't want to build cases on 5 people at once and let it get lost amidst noise.


...MoS had me fooled when he replaced in, though.

[Guardian]

I

really

want to stop this wagon before it starts. Someone give me a case to address, if required.

Alternatively, all of you could realize that there isn't some PR today that in your first post you have to vote me .

Stop this group-think mentality and start discussing things, like my case on BM, for example. Or

why

you are voting for me. Thanks.

@TCS -- I see where you are coming from on Glork -- but what are your reasons?

[Guardian]

Cool -- someone didn't vote me in their first post. Yeah, MoS had me fooled by protecting me. All that crap about "easy day one lynch that happens but is bad". I was like, yay, someone sees that I am town. It makes me think YB and Albert are both town though, since MoS was perfectly willing to put focus on both of them.

MBL, lol nice SK plan, the SK *did* hit scum.

One thing I want to clear up: Part of why I was happy Albert was town was because (presumably) it will mean less suspicion for me today -- but part of it was because I got something *right* in this game, which I felt I had been playing badly until the end of day 1.


@Sarcastro, why exactly should YB be dead if we have a vigilante?

[Guardian]

i did genuinely forget to come back, after having left while waiting for others to respond. However, i was leaning towards voting Albert in any case, so the decision wasn't one i would have opposed.

I see no reason not to take this at face value.... Kind of crucial thing to remember, though.

What makes you assume that MoS was an SK kill?

Three things.

First

, the fact that MoS was killed with a chainsaw.

Second

, the fact that we had two kills night one.

Third

, the fact that

the kill hit mafia

. Do you think it was a mafia kill, BM, or do you think that a vig random vigged night one and then killed MoS?

Oh and don't forget to note his backtracking on the YB issue of yesterday. Makes me think that YB is probably town aswell.

Well, at least we can agree that YB is probably town...

Appeal to Emotion (with regard to Sarc).

Hmm? First, I broke through Sarcastro's icy heart and appealed to his emotions? <3 then, Sarc. Secondly, if appealing to emotions is a conscious decision that is scummy, why would scum ever do it? I've felt good reasons to appeal to emotions as town before, and I am beginning to trust it less and less as a scum tell.

And is it the case that MoS defended Guardian? if so, that has to be another feather in his cap of scumminess. :p

Yes; make up your mind; am I the confused SK, or MoS's scum partner?

Not liking Guardian's attack on BM at the moment. Could you explain again why you're suspicious of him?

One thing, for the town's benefit -- I think BM is the sk/scum for these reasons: his lurking after suspicion fell off him, his pushing suspicion onto people for bad reasons, and his deep sadness at being replaced - sk tell for BM, I would believe.

The first two are the important ones.

Maybe it is not the most airtight case, but I feel good about it. There is more, but that was what I was feeling the most near the end of day one, and still am feeling now.

Also, at the end of the day yesterday, Guardian, you suddenly did a 180 turn and started to suspect YogurtBandit, but now you haven't mentioned him at all yet today. Could you explain this, please?

Yeah, MoS had me fooled by protecting me. All that crap about "easy day one lynch that happens but is bad". I was like, yay, someone sees that I am town. It makes me think YB and Albert are both town though, since MoS was perfectly willing to put focus on both of them.

Eh? I had a lot of doubt near the end of the day yesterday, and though I thought they were both likely town I was surer about Albert and I thought that he had been slightly more helpful. I am not interested in lynching YB today.

[Guardian]

Ok, that makes some sense. It's also worth noting, though, that MOS was attacking Albert and YB yesterday while DEFENDING you in a wierd way, Guardian, saying you were the "easy" lynch but not a good lynch.

I already noted this. It made me think he was town. Would you like further comment from me on this?

@BM -- is that a cop claim? Because then you are definitely lying scum.

If it is not, how do you "KNOW" anything?

[Guardian]

v/la slightly for the next few days.

[Guardian]

Parties is fun. Glork is scum? Why? I find suspicious too but mainly gut, not many have made a case.

[Guardian]

whee I'm.... drunk. i'm town in this game I think. Glork, suspecting that I am a decent townie may be giving me too much credit. hai all

Glork are you scum?

[Guardian]

unvote vote: inHimIshallbe

I'd say why, but cases are scummy.

[Guardian]

ebwop: lol, meant to hit preview there, but now that it's there I don't disagree with the sentiment so whatever.

Read the first few pages with Coron's two posts, and then read inHim in isolation. I don't like it.

[Guardian]

Yos2, Glork could be scum, but I am not scum. FYI...

Reasoning, anyone?

This wagon is silly .

[Guardian]

Ok, well I can't address "looked suspicious" without more details, but at least that's something.

MoS trying to keep me from getting lynched... eh, I guess it is a black mark against me. I think he was trying (and succeeding ) to gain my trust, and to look townlike by defending a (scummy?) townie.

[Guardian]

I don't know about this Guardian thing...it seems too...easy?

That is almost exactly what MoS said ! It is true, but it's odd that you're saying it like that xD.

[Guardian]

And so I was at least half serious when I called your "you can die now scum" vote for Guardian,

which he interestingly enough completly ignored

, a bussing vote.

Yos2, Glork could be scum, but I am not scum. FYI...

Reasoning, anyone?

This wagon is silly .

Guardian is annoyed at the lack of reading.

[Guardian]

You responded to my vote, Guardian, and to my comment about Glork bussing you, but you never were like "Glork, why are you voting me?" or any direct response to him, which was what I found interesting. Not that it means that much necessaraly, but it's part of a pattern of how I'd expect a scum being bussed to act.

Yeah, I didn't feel like addressing individually every person on my wagon. Adressing someone who says "roll over and die scum" or words to that effect never seems to go well for the accused anyways.

I addressed everyone with the comment. The wagon is silly, find another .

[Guardian]

Anyway, today we're lynching Guardian. Like I just said, I'm a little less suspicious of you then I was yesterday, but you're still pretty scummy looking in general.

No, we're really not. Bad idea. Back off from Guardian-lynch.

[Guardian]

That made me lol .

You can still use the rope to lynch someone else, there will be many lynches in this game, I'm sure, don't worry.


If you're bored or whatnot, re-read inHim's posts and tell me what you think. Also Sarcastro.

[Guardian]

I think people should unvote me as opposed to me claiming at this point. I don't understand the case on me and no one has articulated it well... Whatever I claim, the town loses if I don't get lynched after I claim. I really would ask the people on my wagon to reconsider being on my wagon, before I am forced to claim.

However, if people are stubborn, and want to force out a claim just because they can, I will claim.

Anyone voting me without giving me a chance to claim is extremely suspect

, as I am at -2 and I fully intend to claim if I must...

[Guardian]

Yeah, Shteven's post of the case on me is clear as anyone's, and I don't see how any of it is indicative of me being scum.

The case for Guardian:

He was consistently trying to hop wagons to find one that stuck.

I've been trying to find a wagon that was scum. That isn't a scumtell...

Starting on page 9 he placed the third vote on BM. Trying to build a wagon that started to get traction? He also did some considerable jumping afterwards. In total, he's voted for Glork, MBL, BM, N9V, BM, Shteven, TCS, Albert, Shteven, BM, Shteven, Yogurt, BM, inHimshallibe. Repeated wavering, and eager to jump around.

Yep -- I don't *know* who the scum are, and I don't stay consistent for the sake of staying consistent. The above has been my attempt at scumhunting.

The first one was a joke, but afterwards they all appeared serious, or at least as serious as he has been.

Yup...

MoS's "save" of guardian has already been mentioned. This one falls to whether or not you think MoS would be that straightforward; if not, it's sadly WIFOM.

Interpreting MoS's defense of me to say that I am scum is misguided... Or at least it runs to an incorrect conclusion. Who knows why MoS defended me. I have previously offered many possible explanations. I can't defend his actions, I am not scum though .

I put some stock into this. Securing a mislynch for any day is worth the risk, in my mind. Perhaps not as much day 1, though, as lynches are likely to fail already; but all it takes is ~2 non-mafia lynches early on and the game is solidly in the mafia's camp. Night kills can still interfere, if you get lucky as we have.

I agree that non mafia lynches is bad. So stop trying to lynch me!

I'll pick up the case on glork for day 3, I think.

So much for not being single minded. I remember why I found you scummy...

That is, if Guardian turns out to be scum.

Which I won't...

I've become undecided on Glork for now; I think his alignment will probably match Guardian's.

Why? I am unconvinced his alignment will match mine (

Hint: I am town and he may be scum

).

I would hate for Shteven scum to be giving Glork scum a "cover" here.

Anyways, yeah, unvote, don't make me claim, try and lynch scum.

[Guardian]

WTF inHim? What if I were to claim a power role.... Like I'm going to....

I repeat that inHim is extremely suspect for not giving me space to claim, and BM is suspect for not wanting to give me space to claim.



Well this is just great.....

I am a

doctor

. Glork n0, BillyTwilight n1.

I left plenty of breadcrumbs for this, if that will convince you.

Please unvote now before scum quick hammer...

Gah!

[Guardian]

inHim, you're very very wrong, which I find hard to believe after how easily you nailed me in Texas Justice -- or you are

scum

.

No counterclaims makes sense though, since we theoretically could have 2 doctors, at least you aren't trying to out both .

[Guardian]

Another doc claiming would prove nothing. You

want

more power roles outed?


Oh wait, yeah, you do, you wanted more people to vote me to force a claim.

[Guardian]

If someone hammers, my current suspicions are:

Sarcastro for his overall singlemindedness,
inHim for the bad vibe I got when reading over his posts,
Glork for possibly being scum (nope, no case for you Glork, sorry)
BM for possible SK as explained.
YB for possible SK?? the MoS kill makes a lot of sense then, and the SV kill makes more sense.


I guess I'm not that useful as a doctor as no kills were missed -- and MoS was my second choice to protect last night, and I was very close to doing it .

[Guardian]

Oh, and add whoever hammers me to that list, I can't believe that not only will I surely be NK'd -- people are trying to mislynch me .

[Guardian]

I made it very obvious I was doc with "

d

istrict

o

f

c

olumbia" "santiago

d

e

o

c

ompestella" and countless other things.

I said early day one that I surely would have targeted Glork n0 if I was SK -- I did target him, but not as SK. I said at the beginning of day 2 "I, like BillyTwilight" I protected him n1.

Also, I was sure I wouldn't be mislynched yesterday because I'm a doc, I had a few "confident" like posts, and that was why . Then again, I was sure I wouldn't be mislynched today, too, and here I am at -1 with two... players pushing for a hammer.

[Guardian]

Guardian, if you are the doc, then why did you protect Glork? Weren't you just saying you thought he might be scum?

I protected him n0, when we had no info. I didn't find him scummy pregame .

(And by the way, your comment about "Shteven protecting Glork" makes no sense...sure, Glork could be scum, Shteven could be scum, but I'm not sure I'd believe the two of them being scum together.)

Hmm. Yeah, I'm unsure. I forgot Shteven in my List, good catch. He's scummy too .

[Guardian]

inHim: I am

not

a member of the mafia. I am a doctor.

Conceiving arguments on Glork with the pretext that I am a member of the mafia is extremely misguided. He may be defending me for bad reasons, he may be scum independent of defending me, but I repeat, basing Glork_is_scum arguments off of me_is_scum makes no sense.

I want to re-read this thread again. As in, I don't want to re-read this thread again, but I think if I'm to come anywhere near finding scum I should.

[Guardian]

If he's the Doc, he could find himself the target of both kills so that Doc protection won't save him; or, if only one group targets him, the presence of a second Doc could save him.

Whoa, I need a point of clarification here. I thought a Doc protection typically granted NK immunity regardless of how many times that player was targeted by a killing group in a night phase. Maybe it's just my relative newbiness, never seen this definition of a doc protection before.

The doc role PM, shown in post 0, says it works this way.

[Guardian]

Guardian, I'm looking for a decent reason why you now think YB is town again.

I have reconsidered, and am not quite sure he is town. He could be an SK:

YB for possible SK?? the MoS kill makes a lot of sense then, and the SV kill makes more sense.

However, I think he is non-mafia, due to interactions with MoS:

Yeah, MoS had me fooled by protecting me. All that crap about "easy day one lynch that happens but is bad". I was like, yay, someone sees that I am town. It makes me think YB and Albert are both town though, since MoS was perfectly willing to put focus on both of them.

I think MoS trying to get the wagon to deadline lynch YB on day one is pretty indicative of YB being non-scum. It did not feel like busing.

Also:

I don't think Yogurt has the panache to post this as scum:

I actually belive MoS is the only one on the bandwagon that is Pro-town for the most part, since his case one me contains more info from himself and less info from Billy's Pbpa, but maybe that just what he wants.

MBL pointed this out, and I agree -- I don't see YB posting this as MoS's scum buddy.


Re-read coming up... sometime. Maybe tonight.

[Guardian]

More than 2/3 done with the re-read. I have a few opinions/suspicions. I want to hear more from some people first, and I'm not going to single them out as such.

XYZ's role indeed needs to contribute, it has lurked all game.

[Guardian]

Once they're exposed, a Doctor just isn't really worth much, and is such an easy scum claim. I

guess

it couldn't hurt to see if Guardian gets killed during the Night,

but the way he reacted and claimed

just looks like scum to me.

Hold the fort -- WTF!?!? I protested all day about the votes on me, tried to get counter wagons started, and did

everything

in my power to try and get votes off of me so I wouldn't have to claim. Notice how even at lynch -2, I didn't want to claim, and was still asking for a case on me, and continued to ask for people to unvote me so I wouldn't have to claim.

Then, despite my having said that anyone voting me before I claimed or had a chance to defend myself further would be hurting the town,

BM pressured others to vote for me and YOU voted for me

.

inHim, saying the way I reacted and claimed "just looks scummy" is the biggest lie/misrepresentation/misinterpretation that's happened in this game so far. I find you highly suspicious/annoying/unreasonable for the manner in which you put me at -1 despite my numerous pleas to the contrary -- and then even after I claimed you begged for a hammer!?!?

That little snippet, to me, is absolutely ludicrous.

[Guardian]

Shteven, you were most definitely one of the players I wanted to hear from after my re-read (in addition to inHim) before I commented... I thought you looked quite scummy on re-read, you were closed minded, and didn't contribute that much original material.

However, I was quite saddened, because after my waiting, I thought your 1580 was eminently reasonable. You semi apologized for putting me at lynch -1, and brought inHim and Glork to light, my two other top suspects at the moment. There are good reasons to be suspicous of those two, and I thought to myself that maybe Shteven is just trying to find scum, and has been trying to do so all game.

I even meant to post something similar to your 1284 on day one, saying something like "damn you Shteven, just when I find you scummy on re-read, you start to look townlike again", and continue pursuing inHim.

I am glad I neglected to do so. Your 1607 is quite telling to me. You forget your suspicions of inHim, and you don't even choose Glork, as per the "either Glork or inHim" choice you set up for yourself -- you go back to

trying to lynch a doc after I claimed!

Your slinking around day 1, and the inconsistency between the two recent posts I mentioned, really makes me think you are scum. Its as if you forgot what your fake-mindset was supposed to be, and decided to go back to the old "let's lynch Guardian" routine you've been playing all game.

I think there is a great chance one, or even two, of Glork-inHim-Shteven are scum. However, I think Shteven's case is most compelling, and I think lynching him (of those three) will definitely give us the most info, because many players have taken definitive stances on him. His death will be particularly interesting if he comes up scum, as inHim and Glork have taken very firm, and very opposite stances on him.

I could be up for a Glork or inHim lynch today, but at this time I think Shteven is the best play we have at the moment.

In advance: this is not OMGUS. He was one of those I found suspicious after re-read, and was waiting to get a read on him and see how he responded to my claim and what he did next. I will be quite annoyed with and suspicious of anyone whose entire address of my case is "ur argumentz is just OMGUS".

Per the above,

unvote vote: Shteven

.

Inhim-Glork Mafia, Shteven SK?

Inhim Glork Shteven Mafia, BM/YB SK?

[Guardian]

For the record, I still want ManaSpryte to further discuss his/her thoughts after that... very interesting first post.

[Guardian]

Inhim-Glork Mafia, Shteven SK?

Inhim Glork Shteven Mafia, BM/YB SK?

I significantly doubt that if Shteven, Glork, and Inhim all die that there would not be scum somewhere among those three. I'm not 100% convinced that they are ALL scum anymore, but seriously.

I agree with the first sentence. Re: the second sentence, I am definitely not 100% convinced, but I see links among the three.

BM could be mafia, too. Not feeling it that strongly though.


I want to see Shteven's response to my accusations and then his response to Yos2's, and I want to hear a lot more from ManaSpryte.

[Guardian]

By the way, this has been on my mind and is bugging me -- I wonder if inHim is defending Shteven not because they are buddies, but because inHim *knows* that Shteven is town.

If that is the case, I would feel better about an inHim wagon again....

What is the best way to look for this? I have looked for it myself, and I can't determine if it is a)Innocent Defense, b)Mafia defending buddy, or c)Mafia defending known town (like MoS did with me ).

[Guardian]

By the way, this has been on my mind and is bugging me -- I wonder if inHim is defending Shteven not because they are buddies, but because inHim *knows* that Shteven is town.

I wonder how you can possibly be such obvious scum.

Sarc, all I can say at this point is that I've defended myself, addressed all cases against me and asked for people to refer me to anything they want me to answer to, I've claimed a pro-town power role, and that you are

completely wrong

and that your mule-like stubbornness frustrates me greatly.

[Guardian]

Um, the obvious question: Glork what do you

only

do as town? Have you done them here? You brought this up .

[Guardian]

By the way, this has been on my mind and is bugging me -- I wonder if inHim is defending Shteven not because they are buddies, but because inHim *knows* that Shteven is town.

If that is the case, I would feel better about an inHim wagon again....

What is the best way to look for this? I have looked for it myself, and I can't determine if it is a)Innocent Defense, b)Mafia defending buddy, or c)Mafia defending known town (like MoS did with me ).

backtracking. Now Shteven has a nice big wagon, you decide to change your stance, and instead, tie him to Inhim, so you can lynch him tomorrow.

How... have I changed... my stance?

And even if I have changed my stance... any time someone comes up with a new opinion... it is not automatically backtracking.


Your continued

willingness

intense desire to lynch a doctor is noted.

[Guardian]

lol you are SO transparent.
That same old WIFOM argument keeps popping up. You think just because you claim Doctor, nobody has a right to suspect you? you aren't immortal just because you made a BS claim. I love the way you refer to yourself as 'A' Doctor, knowing as you do that there is another real Doctor out there, who is naturally going to be highly wary of your claim.

You are being borderline imbysllyinc. Since we have an SK, whether I am not a doctor or am a doctor, I am a very good target for NK. If I am still around at endgame, great, go ahead and be suspicious of me. Unless the mafia and SK want to try and pull that huge WIFOM, I won't be.

I refer to myself as 'a' doctor, because the setup has 0,1, or 2 doctors! From my perspective (assuming the 0,1,2 was randomly chosen), there is a 50% chance there is another doctor out there. There may be, there may not be, I have no way of knowing.

Just because fools like you joined my wagon even though I really didn't want to claim -- maybe even

because

I didn't want to claim, I don't want to make matters worse by forcing another doctor to claim if one exists.

with response to your relevant points, your stance has appeared to change with regard to Shteven, who you previously suspected, but as his wagon grows to near completion, you have hopped off, and started a pathetic attempt to look like you are trying to derail it.

Ummm. I still suspect Shteven. Highly. I have no intention of derailing is wagon.

Your defence of the change of opinion is blatantly an attempt to cover your own arse, when people read back and your comments don't add up.

I repeat... I am still suspicious of Shteven, if that is your perception of my "change" in opinion... you are wrong. Note a few posts back where I named him as likely to be one of the mafia members.

If you see something different, please explain it. From my perspective your continued attack of me is not taking into account anything that has happened since I claimed, and is just based off of you initial "suspcion" of me. You appear to be making up arguments to make me seem scummy to coorelate with your suspicion, even when the arguments are baseless.

You admit to doing so, earlier, when you said you brought up my "appeal to emotion" even though you didn't think it was at all a good scum tell -- just to convince others of my being scum. Stop being ridiculous if you are town. Keep it up if you aren't .

[Guardian]

EBWOP: I can kind of see maybe where you are pulling your arguments from. I am highly suspicious of inHim, and I wonder what his defense of Shteven means. That in no way equates to me trying difinitively to derail the wagon. I maintain that your attack is baseless.

[Guardian]

TCS -- can you state your concise (or not so concise) reasons for your top 3 scum in one post?

Your list mirrors mine, and I want to hear

your

reasons for having suspicions that happen to be the same as mine.

[Guardian]

Manaspryte... I definitely want to hear more from you.

unvote: inHim vote: Manaspryte

. That one post, to me, was so suspicious that... for the time being, at least, I feel my vote is best placed on you.

*waits for BM to complain about how I am backtracking by voting Manaspryte *

[Guardian]

I don't know what imbysllinc means, but as you have said it applies to me, it most probably doesn't.

Whether or not you might be NKed is pretty irrelevant if you are scum.

No... it is highly relevant. I *am* a good target for an SK. There is a decent shot I am the only doctor, and there is also a decent shot that if there is another doctor they won't trust my claim enough to protect me.

There is no guarantee that another killing group would choose to kill you, IF THEY BELIEVE YOUR CLAIM.

Not many people believe my claim, apparently. There is no guarantee that a killing group will kill me no matter what they think. However, it is *likely* a killing group will target me.

If you were still alive tomorrow, or the next day, does that prove your innocence?
answer: Hell NO.

That is true. However, if I am *dead* tomorrow, or the next day, that will prove my innocence.

rofl. and again you are backtracking.

*waits for BM to complain about how I am backtracking by voting Manaspryte *

I am not going to let your ill thought attacks on me stop me from changing my opinions and scum hunting. Read Manaspryte's post. It was suspicious as anything. I think that role is much more likely than average to be scum, because of his blatant willingness to bus for no reason.

If you are going to lie, at least decide what lie you are trying to tell. One minute you think Shteven is scum, then you don't, then you do, and now you have hopped onto the soup of the day: ManaSpryte.

Shteven is up there. He may or may not be scum. ManaSpryte seems like a good target -- again, I am not going to let you, BM, stop me from changing my opinions or looking for scum.

I don't think anyone else is going to laugh as a result of our exchange.*

*at me

I will draw attention to your last comment specifically (bolded by me). Let me ask, would somebody who was genuinely a Doc under heavy suspicion say, if you are scum, please keep misrepresenting me.

Keep it up if you aren't

.

Maybe because I think you are pushing for a mislynch beyond all reason and I am perfectly happy for scum to look scummy?

Its a blatant attempt to render people who suspect you as confirmed scum.

Note how I ask you to look scummy only if you are scum. I think there is a decent chance you are obliging in that regard.

It also makes it crystal clear that you KNOW i am not scum, for you are scum yourself.

Ah. Me saying for you to do one thing if you are town and another if not is a strong implication of my knowing your exact alignment. I bow to superior logic.[/sarcasm]

[Guardian]

Argh, my words are being taken from inHimland and twisted into something I can't help. I'm going to have to shut up about this mistakes business, because all I'm doing is obscuring the Town's discussion.

Hmm? I honestly am not getting this, can you please explain where and how your words were being twisted?

Manaspryte... I definitely want to hear more from you.

unvote: inHim vote: Manaspryte

. That one post, to me, was so suspicious that... for the time being, at least, I feel my vote is best placed on you.

*waits for BM to complain about how I am backtracking by voting Manaspryte *

It's not going to be BM to complain first.

inHim, try reading the few posts after I made that post. Reading is so helpful in not looking like... you didn't bother to read the thread. BM already complained. Nice try?

You rally against me like you did and just wash your hands of it for a post, so you can point your finger at someone else? Guardian is scum!

This is all baseless... I am still suspicious of you. Wash my fingers of it? WTF? You voted me after I voted you, and you put me at -1 while doing so when I requested specifically that even if people found me suspicious they try and wait for discussion rather than immediately forcing me to claim.

Your play since then has included trying to get me lynched despite my claim. It has included baseless attacks. It has included seer-like certainty that Glork is scum defending me-scum, err... that Glork is scum defending me-townie... err that Glork is scum no matter what the facts say! And your play has included continuing to push for my lynch beyond all NK logic to the contrary -- again, for pretty shitty reasons.

Seriously, what in hell inHim, you are either not paying attention or you are scum trying to sow confusion in as many areas as possible. Right now I am heavily leaning towards the latter.

re: Shteven. Yes, I'm pseudo-defending him. Yes, this is partly because he is Glork's highest suspect at the moment.

That convinced Glork is scum, eh?

This is also partly because I remember some of his playstyle from a game I've played with him before, and he doesn't argue well when he's scum. I don't think he's scum.

If you could reference this game and... I dunno... make your semi-defense of him seem like it has some substance behind it, that would be great.

And there goes Glork again, being contradicted, and this time by YB, no less.

Glork explained how this wasn't a contradiction. Similar to what BM is doing with me, you seem to be throwing any argument you can at Glork in hopes that something will stick. Seriously, your play in Texas Justice alone makes me think you are much, much better than this as town.

My list of suspects right now is probably:

ManaSpryte
inHim
Shteven
BM
YB
Glork


inHim, you keep making post after post that really... just doesn't make that much sense. Try harder if you are town, each careless post is making you look scummy to me .

Maybe "mistakes" isn't what I need to use for this game. It's more of a "do as I say, not as I do" thing for Glork.

I am totally confused by that sentence. Please explain. Is this in response to the faux-contradiction pointed out by YB?

[Guardian]

minor ebwop: I realized reading over the last few pages that my list above neglects to mention Sarcastro, largely because he has not been that active. Then again, he is below Glork for me so maybe he shouldn't be on there anyways. In any case, his semi-lurking is noted .

Also,

for the record

, I have had this nagging suspicion about HackerHuck all game, and I can't really pin it down. And, while there are much more obvious targets out there, he can wait . If anyone wants to do a targeted re-read on him and see if there is anything substantiative or if I am just getting a vibe, that'd be awesome.

[Guardian]

Sorry, I was away in Chicago. I will post in an hour or 2.

I completely understand not being able to post quickly after you came back from vacation. That being said, an "hour or 2" has definitely passed.

[Guardian]

People thought they were going to get to lynch me based off of a case that mostly consisted of me having a generally scummy vibe for all I can tell, and they didn't get to,

but then didn't bother to re-read the thread and search for scum. .

[Guardian]

V/LA posting in all threads: Hey, I might post here once or twice more before going -- but FYI tomorrow I am leaving on a V/LA Thursday-Sunday. Expect me to check this and all threads Sunday evening. Hope you manage without me .

Love to hear from Mana and hear more from inHim....

[Guardian]

inHim, you are ridiculous. Really. If you are town, I am so annoyed with you. Well, if you are scum I am annoyed too, but then at least this is your job.

If you are town, seriously, stop being so dumb...

I want to hear from you because I want you to make cases and make me believe that either of the other 2 in your top 3 are worth lynching.

Right now, they are not atop my list.

[Guardian]

It feels like Shteven is trying to link himself with me . If he turns up scum I am going to be quite frustrated -- because I am truly starting to get cold feet from his wagon.

I'm sure this will mess with BM's mind even more, and sorry, but now I do feel what he accused me of thinking is now kind of true -- Shteven's wagon just doesn't feel right to me. That being said, I am not going to argue against his lynch, I don't feel that strongly about it, but I am not sure if he is going to turn up scum. .

I need to think about this, I think I am going to re-read day 2 and reconsider everything.


Also, Manaspryte, except for the meta-gaming johhan, I was tempted to QFT all of AutumnEvening's post. Take some definitive stands and more importantly explain the why behind your thoughts.

[Guardian]

mod

: prod Manaspryte?

Manaspryte needs to post more. I also think she merits more votes.

This game in general needs more action .

lol@I do not negotiate with terrorists. I sense possible distancing between Glork and Shteven, if Shteven is scum .

[Guardian]

OK, a prod on Manaspryte is not necessary. Just more posts by her & votes .

I feel distancing just because Shteven's vote of Glork just now was really, really, really weak.

[Guardian]

Vote Count

more or less

Glork- 1 (Shteven)
Guardian- 1 (BattleMage)
inHimShallIBE- 1 (Yosarian2)
ManaSpryte- 3 (Guardian, AutumnEvenings, YB)
Shteven- 4 (Glork, Jack, Sarcastro, BillyTwilight)
Yogurt Bandit- 4 (HackerHuck, The Central Scrutinizer, ManaSpryte, inhim)

With

15

alive, it takes

8

to lynch!

Not voting (1): Mr. Buddy Lee

---

Why did you want one Mana?

---

inhim, I was just about to be happy with your vote, then you moved it off. Not to say YB can't be scum, but I feel better about Mana at this time... And about you, inhim, for that matter . Their wagons need more votes.

[Guardian]

Posting in all threads: V/LA until Monday. Good luck without me.
---

Hmm... ManaSpryte still needs more votes.... but

unvote vote: Glork

? I just don't... like... his case, or his manner of presenting it. More thought will be put into this upon my return.

[Guardian]

I want inHim or manaspryte lynched, badly. One of them, at least, is scum. Manasprtye has been so obviously scummy it hurts me deep inside how no one is voting for her.

A YB lynch or a Glork lynch would not disappoint me particularly, I think.

unvote vote: inHim

. Wagon-time. I am still very willing to place my vote back on manaSpryte if you all stop being silly and vote her.

inHim, "lynch all doctors" and many of your other comments about me have been absolutely mind blowingly bad and scummy. And you have been hardcore defending Shteven, and now even when there is a wagon on Glork, one of your three to-be lynched, you choose YB instead? I would not be at all displeased with a inHim lynch today.

[Guardian]

Btw, in response to HackerHuck -- YB has demonstrated a level of incredibly bad play in other games that makes me reaffirm my suspicion that he is not scum here, just town playing badly.

Look at my wiki, C9 + 2 modded by Mert, that recently ended. YB's play has devolved in most of his games to townie lynchbait, and I don't want to let that happen here, with him at lynch minus... something.

[Guardian]

Jack, what do you think about ManaSpryte? Why are you not willing to lynch her today?

[Guardian]

Yeah no problem explaining -- I think YB may make sense as an SK, but not mafia.

So he is SK, or vanilla town.

In both cases, he hasn't helped the town at all (except lucky SK shot?), and I doubt that he will during the course of the game. He has claimed vanilla, and will not draw a scum NK unless they become convinced he is the SK.

So, I won't be that disappointed, since he could be an SK, and is doing almost 0 to help out, but on the other hand I think if he isn't SK then he is, in fact, a vanilla townie. I would place odds like 25% 75% right now, with better chance of him being town.

Even with this, his complete lack of helpfulness and my desire for something to happen means I wouldn't be that disappointed... now that I think about it though, my vote will not be going to YB, though, and I think his lynch will likely not result in a scum death. So I guess I would be disappointed since there are better targets (manaspryte!! inhim!?) .

[Guardian]

Glork just made a good post. If he is the SK, as TCS says, I am willing to keep him around to help us find scum. Literally. I worry more that he is mafia and leading us on wild goose chases.

As SK, he wouldn't target me because he isn't silly like that, forcing the mafia to... Oh Glork, plz be SK.

Anyways, his request of TCS and observation about the lurkers really makes sense.

I have latched onto Manaspryte -- I think the others make some sense, too, though. HackerHuck and Yosarian2 I particularly worry about, in addition to manaspryte. I didn't ask when Jack did, as I assume you have some reason for not disclosing why you voted Sarcastro (other than lurking), but I'd love to hear why at some point.

I really think that manaspryte has a great chance of being scum and should be lynched. I was taken aback when Jack wasn't struck one way or another by her presence.

[Guardian]

TCS, Glork was too harsh in how he asked maybe, but he wants you to use your scumhuntz skillz 2 find the scumz. Surely that is not a bad thing?

[Guardian]

Glork, another decent+ post.

TCS, I did what you are doing now as town, once. I regret it. Emotion got the better of me. Now granted, the players who made me do it were quite evil... (hi PJ )... lol. But it is a game. Really, I think you analyzing some of those players could help us a lot. Help us, kind sir.


Glork, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Manaspryte, specifically, too.

I may do a case on her, but I want to get people's opinions before doing so, to see what

they

think.

[Guardian]

Guys, kiss and make up. Glork stop being mean. TCS, stop being bullied. Both of you, find scum plz.


Surely Glork is not the only scum TCS -- might some of his buddies (manaspryte!) be included in his list? Or, if he is SK, might he be trying to help find scum?

[Guardian]

If he is the SK, as TCS says, I am willing to keep him around to help us find scum. Literally. I worry more that he is mafia and leading us on wild goose chases.

As SK, he wouldn't target me because he isn't silly like that, forcing the mafia to... Oh Glork, plz be SK.

TCS, do you think the above makes sense? If Glork helps us find all the scum and he is still alive, then we can look at him. As MBL said, the SK is really weak and needs to help kill scum, otherwise they get in a near un-winnable situation.

So, if you are convinced Glork is the SK, might it not make sense to go through with his plan, at least in part, analyze the lurkers, and find scum?

Also, side-note -- SK, if you aren't Glork, you should still try to target scum. Look how easy a Glork-frame is if you hit scum 3 nights in a row .

[Guardian]

I care. Manaspryte is inactive. She should be lynched. Your thoughts please Glork? Or have you for sure commented?

I will be making a case on her before I return to school Friday.

[Guardian]

Y'all need to be voting Manaspryte.

unvote vote: Manaspryte

.

Case forthcoming (hopefully).

[Guardian]

Guardian is such scum, especially after reading his routine throughout the last couple pages.

I'll admit I could be wrong

, but all the wrong signals are coming from Guardian.

Jack, you keep your cards close, respectable. Yos, if lynching doctors is still the main thing keeping your vote on me, I'd ask you to reconsider, mebbe? At least vote Yogurt.

My take on things, actually, if Glork is scum - he's feeding us one of his partners to stave off suspicion; we should probably hunt in the inactives he listed for a scum. If he's SK, he needs to die regardless.

Don't you think you should be a bit surer than "I'll admit I could be wrong" and have better reasons than "all the wrong signals" to lead a lynch wagon on a claimed doc who hasn't even been through one night as a claimed doc yet? You are very, very silly.

[Guardian]

unvote vote: inHim

.

I think mana would be a better play.

I'm sorry I don't have time in my life right now to explain why I think that is true.

[Guardian]

1. Shteven - I think he is scum for silly play and inconsistencies.
2. MrBuddyLee (MBL) - Average scumminess or lower.
5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS) - Average scumminess or lower.
6. Coron 6. inHimshallIbe - Ridiculous play and responses re: me. I feel like he is scum.
8. HackerHuck - In the shadows, I've had this ridiculous bad feeling about him all game.
9. BattleMage - Terribly unsure about him. Needs replacement. Average scumminess or lower.
11. Guardian - Doctor. Pro-town.
12. Glork - Not sure about him. His anger and frustration seem real. Average scumminess or lower.
14. Haut Boy 14. AutumnEvenings - Not sure about her. Creepy doubt. Average scumminess or lower.
15. Billy Twilight - Like MBL said, if he is scum he is quality scum. I again get this creepy doubt that my top two protection targets were scum. Average scumminess or lower.
16. Jack - Average scumminess or lower.
17. Yogurt Bandit - Really unhelpful, but I don't see him as teamscum with MoS.
18. Nik Zero 18. Yosarian2 - Unsure about him. Need a re-read. Yos2 can be very tricky as scum.
19. Johhan 19. Xyzzy 19.ManaSpryte - I did a re-read planning to make a case on ManaSpryte... But some johhan-MoS interactions lead me to say... Average scumminess or lower. . ManaSpryte has been fairly ridiculous imo, even though I no longer am sure he's scum.
20. BeanBagBoy (BBB) 20. Plessiez 20. Sarcastro - Not really scum hunting. Could definitely be teamscum.

If I had five dayvig kills that I had to use immediately, in order:
inHim
Shteven
Sarcastro
Yosarian2
AutumnEvenings

Of the popular wagons, I highly disagree with the YB one at this point, and think inHim and Sarcastro are better.

I will move my vote to Sarcastro if it means saving someone I find much less scummier, otherwise it is staying on inHim in hopes that he gets lynched.

[Guardian]

YB was a pretty good lynch suspect yesterday and it seems like the fact that he was being bussed by MoS is keeping him off of the chopping block.

"fact"?

mFOS: Huck

Good catch MBL.

unvote vote: HackerHuck

.

HackerHuck -- address this -- if you address it satisfactorily my vote will move elsewhere, if not, I'm going to start digging deeper.

[Guardian]

ebwop: 1918 by Schteven gives me all the wrong vibes, ftr.

[Guardian]

unvote

A vote on HH means nothing at this point, I guess.

I advise all to keep him in mind the following days, along with the players I mentioned in my top 5 just now if I get NKed. I am usually pretty good at finding scum and pretty bad at explaining why .

As of my unvote, I believe that this is about right

UN

Official Vote Count

5 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight, Jack)

5 votes for Sarcastro (AutumnEvenings, Shteven, YB, MBL, Glork)
1 votes for Glork (TCS)
1 votes for InHim (Yosarian2)
1 vote for Guardian (BattleMage)
1 votes for Shteven (Sarcastro)


At this point, YB would be deadline lynched as he got to 5 votes first.

I must say I am terribly disappointed at the lack of activity nearing deadline -- you all are not as busy as I am, and you all aren't scum, so wtf.

I am thinking who of YB and Sarc I support more. At the moment, my head says Sarc but my gut says YB. Hmm.

[Guardian]

vote: Sarcastro

.

Head>gut. MoS was not distancing with YB, imo. I hope.

[Guardian]

If your slip was indicative of anything HH, it would be that you think of MoS as busing, therefore you being scum with him. I think scum would be more likely to think of their partners' votes as "busing" than normal, irrespective of who they are voting for. And OK at v/la I don't check the thread, but if you posted there no worries ;O.

AE, I did read then, and I missed something. It was johhan's post, where johhan specifically mentions something about MoS. I don't take notes or whatever and don't particularly want to look it up right now, but if you want me to I can, I guess... Posts 10 and 11 of his don't seem like scum-scum interaction -- I think johhan was trying to explain something to MoS honestly, not trying to fake something with a partner. I think.

AE, switching to Yogurt for that reason is BS. If you find him scummier and can support that, then go ahead -- but vote switching "for information" seems rather stupid. What info do we get if he is town?

[Guardian]

I don't like my wagon mates either. Hello, fellows .

Hm. I don't particularly feel good about this wagon, or YB's. This is just like the end of day one, where I get the feeling both wagons are wrong. I'm gonna re-read the YB MoS interaction, as that is all that really makes me want to keep YB alive over Sarcastro at this point.

I know for sure YB isn't going to be useful in finding scum...

[Guardian]

Eh, yeah I think YB is indeed vanilla town. .

Here's to hoping Sarc is scum.


This night should be interesting, indeed. I predict I live, scum want to WIFOM us.

[Guardian]

Jack, why?

[Guardian]

because it matters:

UN

Official Vote Count

6 votes for Sarcastro (AutumnEvenings, Shteven, YB, MBL, Glork, Guardian)

6 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight, Jack, TCS)

1 vote for InHim (Yosarian2)
1 vote for Guardian (BattleMage)
1 vote for Shteven (Sarcastro)

---

Disappointing/noteworthy that BM is not here at the end of day... again.
Sarcastro was on a trip, his last vote makes sense, I guess.
Yosarian2's vote is in a better place, imo, but worthless with likely hours until deadline strikes.

Again Yogurt "would" be lynched but seemingly isn't going to be. I don't know how I feel about this.

I know if they are both town Sarcastro is a lot more useful... but I think YB is town, and am not sure of Sarcastro's alignment...

Then again, Sarc had no idea a wagon of this size would come while he was vacationing, for all we know he is a power role .

Hmm.

[Guardian]

Sweet, mafia no-killed, or, much more likely imo, we had a successful doc protection .

If MrBuddyLee (my protection) wasn't NK targeted, I bet there is some other doc out there who protected me and that's why I live -- after me placing the lynching vote on scum at the end of the day yesterday, maybe the scum realized that it finally was no longer feasible to continue trying to lynch a claimed doctor.

I mourn AE's death . I hope she isn't really leaving the site!


After the lynch scene yesterday, I had a moment of clarity(?) where I thought Shteven and HackerHuck both made a lot of sense as the final two scum.

Shteven, in addition to everything else, seemed very eager to lead what was looking to be an unsuccessful Sarcastro wagon.

Hackerhuck's "ambivalence" as to who would be lynched did nothing to improve my opinion of him, too.


I felt really good about this during the night, but there are so many other good candidates that I'm not that sure about it .

vote: Shteven

-- we'll see where this goes.

[Guardian]

I want to start this off with my thoughts after new info has come in:
And by the way -- "average scumminess or lower" is what i use so I'm not flat out telling the mafia who I'm going to protect at night. Last night AutumnEvenings was my second choice; even though I wasn't terribly sure of her alignment, I thought she might be NKed...



1. Shteven - could definitely be teamscum with MoS and Sarc. "Accidentally" led the Sarc wagon, iirc -- he was thanking people for Sarc votes when there were only 4 votes on it looked like Sarc def wouldn't be lynched. My main target.
2. MrBuddyLee (MBL) - average scumminess or lower
5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS) - ??? Not sure on him. He needs to explain yesterday's vote and today's vote.
6. Coron 6. inHimshallIbe - very misguided. very possibly teamscum.
8. HackerHuck - could definitely be teamscum
9. BattleMage - ??? lurker. average scumminess or lower.
11. Guardian - doctor, pro-town
12. Glork - probably not teamscum, but could be an SK.
15. Billy Twilight - terribly unsure about him. average scumminess or lower.
16. Jack - average scumminess or lower.
17. Yogurt Bandit - Not teamscum. Could be an SK,
18. Nik Zero 18. Yosarian2 - little content. needs to be watched very closely.
19. Johhan 19. Xyzzy 19.ManaSpryte - Not teamscum. Could

definitely

be an SK. The kill choices make sense, too.

Teamscum?:
Shteven
HackerHuck
inHim
---
SK?:
ManaSpryte
YogurtBandit
Glork
---
Lurk Less/Explain Recent Actions?:
BM
Yosarian2
TCS

Some responses next post...

[Guardian]

Surprisingly, I don't think Shteven is a member of the Mafia right now. Given how devastating losing a second member by the end of D2 would be, I believe that both other Mafiates were off of the Sarcastro-lynch.

Look at how Shteven wagoned Sarcastro. He seemed all too fake about it, and it didn't look like Sarcastro was a viable lynch candidate until three late votes came.

Sarc wasn't going to survive much longer, and when he died, Yos would have been absolutely

grilled

on his decision to change the outcome of the lynch.

I take great issue with this.

There was little to no case on Sarcastro. AE didn't like his non scum hunting, Shteven jumpted on for similar reasons, YB jumped on to prevent his being lynched -- and then MBL, Glork, and myself jumped on solely because we preferred Sarcastro to YB.

I take great issue/find scummy this statement Glork -- Sarcastro wasn't going to be a major focus of suspicion if YB was lynched.

Sweet, mafia no-killed, or, much more likely imo, we had a successful doc protection .

If MrBuddyLee (my protection) wasn't NK targeted, I bet there is some other doc out there who protected me and that's why I live -- after me placing the lynching vote on scum at the end of the day yesterday, maybe the scum realized that it finally was no longer feasible to continue trying to lynch a claimed doctor.

It does look like there is another doctor because I don't think that MBL was really a mafia target. I honestly think that you just say you doc proctected MBL just to stay in the role. You knew that he wasn't gonna get killed by mafia. And a quick vote on shteven was a little premature considering he was the main person who started the Sarcastro wagon.

.... Really? I think you aren't teamscum, but

come on

mate.

I agree with Jack's assessment of Manaspryte and agree that his questions need to be responded to.

TCS needs to explain his votes.



I want to restate these things as I think they are important:

• Look at johhan-MoS interaction near where johhan replaces out. They are likely not teamscum (Manaspryte=johhan).
  
• Look at YB-MoS and MoS-YB interaction near day one's end. They are likely not teamscum.
  
• Look at Shteven's behavior re: the Sarc wagon. He seems to have little reasoning and I think he is distancing from Sarcastro and deciding not to be on the YB wagon -- he didn't think Sarcastro was actually going to be lynched.

[Guardian]

Shteven, you basically are saying the following:

"there is almost no way Guardian is team scum. however, I think he is lying about being the doctor.... but there was a doctor protection last night -- and Guardian was a likely target.

So... Guardian could be the SK!"

Why do you want to come up with a reason to vote me so badly? What are your reasons besides OMGUS? What, if any, case do you have on me for being an SK?


Glork -- townie seems a pretty good SK claim for me. Claiming doctor paints a NK-ME! sign on your back. Cop and vig are equally bad. Townie however makes an unappealing NK target -- ideal for an SK, as long as he can prevent being lynched -- and when YB claimed, he had little legit reason for claiming.

YB killing MoS makes sense as him-SK, as does him killing off the "theoretically" good players. ManaSpryte-SK has killed good players until Mana himself actually replaced in, and then he targeted AE, who had pushed a Mana lynch all day.

Glork, you have not made sense/had a lot of inconsistencies, but I don't think you are team scum.

TCS and Yos2 haven't contributed enough for me to put them into a category -- so they NEED to contribute more.



And yeah, I just disagree with you on Sarc. The case on him was not that great -- he would not have been one of my main targets today.

[Guardian]

Shteven, you basically are saying the following:

"there is almost no way Guardian is team scum. however, I think he is lying about being the doctor.... but there was a doctor protection last night -- and Guardian was a likely target.

So... Guardian could be the SK!"

Why do you want to come up with a reason to vote me so badly? What are your reasons besides OMGUS? What, if any, case do you have on me for being an SK?

See my above post, which I wrote at the same time as you wrote yours, so it's not a reply, but rather, some more arguments against you in connection with Glork/TCS.

I do think you have a decent chance of being mafia. I would put you after Glork and TCS, however. The specific reason why you could be SK is exactly what you posted in your post, trying to say it wasn't a reason. It

IS

a reason. Let me break down the exact logic:

OK, watch me break down your broken down logic .

FACT: There was only one night kill. It's entirely possible that the mafia submitted a no-kill, but I am considering this extremely unlikely. Therefore:

Assumed: the doctor protected the person the mafia targetted. I'd say this is at least 90% probable.

Agreed.

Assumption: Guardian is the most likely target for doctor protection, being our only claimed power role. This can't be proven, but I'd say it's likely.

This assumes there is another doctor and is still not true -- MBL is the "most likely" doctor protection as I am a doctor and protected him.

Corollary: the chances of their being another doctor in the game to protect guardian INCREASES if guardian lied about his claim. He then wouldn't be using one of the possible doctor slots. However, it's possible there are two doctors. However, this is an increased chance of being Anti-Town.

Wait what? There are still just as many doctors before I claimed as after I claimed in the game if I'm not a doctor. Assuming I fake claimed, my fake claiming doesn't suddenly remove doctors. This doesn't make sense.

Conclusion: If guardian was mafia-targeted, then he is not mafia,

but is Anti-Town

, so he is the SK.

You ASSUME IN THE CONCLUSION THAT I AM ANTI-TOWN.

I asked what scummy tells you have on me that don't rely on interactions with the mafia -- and you haven't produced any. Your argument results in either a) I am the doc and protected OR b) I was targeted for NK and was protected.

Neither of those makes me an SK. I usually hate to ad-hom as town, as it doesn't convince people, but for the love of goodness you and ManaSpryte are idiots, and both of you are OMGUSing me. You are trying to push a case against me beyond all reason.

You still have a chance to be mafia, because the above logical argument involves assumptions that you were targeted by the mafia and protected by another doctor.

Aside from me hammering Sarcastro, this still doesn't make sense with the above assumptions. If I am mafia (unless I No Killed, which you disregarded in the above) then some other doctor protected someone else. But you say I am the most likely person to have been protected. So you are trying to have it both ways. You are basically trying to reason however you can into whatever convoluted scenario you can that would somehow, some way end up with me being scum.

P.S. This is exactly what I had posted previously, which you quoted and dismissed without ever understanding.

I dismissed it because it is bullshit.


BTW, you said earlier I've been on you all game -- not true at all. I have been pushing a case on you all of today, and that's about it. Before this I've voted you, but never pushed a case on you.



TCS, I'm going to be completely honest -- I am not sure whether you lying low or posting more is more likely to result in me voting for you.

For what its worth though, I trust Mana & Shteven's reads on this game about 0, so their votes on you aren't going to influence me one way or the other -- if they are voting you and you're scum, basically we get lucky.

Also, for what its worth, the town has never won a game I've been lynched in either . The town has in fact never won a game I've been in, as I always get mislynched at endgame -- a scenario that comrade Shteven is trying to nicely to set up....

[Guardian]

1) Who are the remaining two scum?
{Shteven, HH, inHim} contains at least one, {TCS, Kinetic, BT, Yos2} I have no great read on.
{MrBuddyLee (MBL), Jack} I doubt are scum.
{Yogurt Bandit, ManaSpryte} are not teamscum.

2) Who is the SK?
{Glork, YB, ManaSpryte}?

3) Who are not going to be at all helpful in finding said scum?
{Shteven, The Central Scrutinizer (TCS) [at least no convincing ], Yogurt Bandit, ManaSpryte}

4)Who do we want contributions from?
{TCS, Kinetic, BT, Yos2}

[Guardian]

unvote: Shteven vote: HackerHuck

.

I feel as good about him as Shteven, and more are willing...

[Guardian]

Who did you protect Night 1, the other night?

[Guardian]

And claiming without provocation was probably the worst thing you could have done right there...

Even if you are a doctor, you're still a fool.

[Guardian]

And claiming without provocation was probably the worst thing you could have done right there...

Even if you are a doctor, you're still a fool.

Oh really? I thought you were the doctor and we could protect each other.

You think I trust you enough to protect you? YOU TRUST ME ENOUGH!?!?!?!?

Bullshit.


Even if we did and we were, a double kill could get through it -- and if we decided somehow to protect each other that would leave the whole town wide open.

Like hell we'll be protecting each other.

YOU ARE CAUGHT!

YOU ARE IDIOT!

[Guardian]

ManaSpryte, I'm sorry for calling you an idiot. I probably would have acted similarly in your shoes.

[Guardian]

Yeah. When I say your position.... I have very little doubt in my mind that you are a doctor -- let us know your previous targets when you get a chance...


I figure I had better do this now than later, I don't want another "counter claim".

I am a townie. Who lied.

Yes, let me repeat that -- I am a townie who lied.

I am not a doctor. I fake claimed to a) prevent being mislynched and b) hopefully draw night kill.

a) happened, b) didn't, considering we lynched scum I was very very happy with the results of day two. Not mislynching me and instead lynching Sarc-scum was a great result from my gambit.

I continued to be somewhat happy up until the point where ManaSpryte "counterclaimed" -- outing a real doctor for no reason was the one thing I feared when I claimed, and I'd thought I had avoided that most undesirable scenario, and then MS claimed.

A third doctor might well consider claiming with 2 claimed doctors, as one of us would obviously be lying, and I don't want that to happen. If there is another doctor out there, Glork or ManaSpryte are excellent protection targets.


So, that is the truth. I am a townie. I assume some people will pounce on this with a "lynch all liars" mantra.... And I would be quite saddened by this, as it would result in the very mislynch I had tried so hard (and succeeded) in preventing.

I'll say it one last time to be clear: I am a townie who lied. My protection claims were targets who made sense to me to target who didn't die -- for example had MoS not died I'd have said I'd protected him, but he died so I came up with Billy. MoS being scum made me quite happy that I am really not a doctor -- were I, MoS and AE would still live, and our SK would be very frustrated, heh.

Glork is almost certainly not mafia. Mana is almost certainly a pro-town doctor. I am vanilla town.

Make from that what you will.

[Guardian]

1) It only takes one 'cleared' mafia member to win the game. Aka, bussing.

You think I would claim, the unclaim, and think that I would be cleared? That doesn't make sense to me.

2) He could be the SK.

That is a legitimate worry. I hope we find the real SK fast, so it eliminates me from being considered as a possible SK.

3) He felt that Sarcastro was going to be lynched with or without him. This is possible, someone else could have switched, but it was pretty close to the wire and I do concede his vote was very useful.

Yeah -- I think Sarcastro's lynch would have been improbable both today and yesterday had I not "hammered"

4) It could be the case that YogurtBandit is also scum. I don't think he is, but it remains a possibility.

I doubt this too.

None of those are that likely, but that one of them is the case is enough for me to leave my vote on guardian. The Sarc vote does bother me though.

2 makes sense to me. If people want to go SK-fishing on a townie who lied, and have legitimate reasons for this, then That makes sense and I'm saddened but I understand. I don't think that any of your other points hold water or that it is reasonable to believe that I am a mafiate at this point.

[Guardian]

Wow, I certainly didn't expect that. I will say that as town, the timing of your claim doesn't make much sense to me. Try and explain to me your thought process behind suddenly exposing your lie. It certainly seems to me that we would be better off if you had just kept on pretending to be the other doctor.

I don't think Mana claiming at this point was a good idea. However, when he claimed, that made it so we had two claimed doctors.

With two claimed doctors, IF there is another doctor out there, they would know one of us was lying, and it would make a lot of sense for them to claim to force the issue.

I came out to prevent this possibility from happening -- I didn't want to expose another power role because of my fake claim.

I'd also like to understand why you now think Glork is town and you think it's acceptable to direct the doc's actions....

There MAY be another doctor besides mana. However, if there is not, Glork was highly probably targeted for night kill and then protected by Mana. I am not sure if he is pro-town, but I find it highly unlikely that he is a mafia member.

[Guardian]

Er, wtf. I somehow missed the second half of your post. Doesn't make the flip-flop any less disconcerting.

Heh...yeah. I just have a really hard time believing that a townie would claim doc under pressure. I don't think I've ever actually seen that happen, it would be an absolutly and obveously horrible terrible move, and it just seems much, much more likely that Guardian being a lying scum of some type.

Why would it be a horrible and terrible move? People assume this, but I thought about it a great deal, and since it makes no sense for a doctor to counter claim with there being a potentiality of two doctors, and other than outing another doctor, I don't see the downsides of the play.

It prevented a pro-town player from getting lynched.

The point I made a little while ago was that the SK claiming doc would be a bad more for an SK to make, but as far as bad moves go, it's not even in the same UNIVERSE as townie claiming doc would be, heh.

Again, I'm sure we'll discuss this post-game, but I think it made sense to lie. TSQ has a meta-policy that townies should claim doctor early game to prevent being lynched for many of the same reasons I thought it was a good idea.

Truly, this is best reserved for post-game, but the best possible result happened -- I didn't get lynched, and scum did. How does that translate to it being a bad pro-town move?

[Guardian]

I've claimed cop as townie before. I don't think it is a terrible play--

with the setup, he wouldn't be counterclaimed

.

As Jack alluded to, there is no reason for a real doctor to "counter claim" with just one claimed doctor. So as I said, outing a doctor is not a legitimate worry...

In any event, that is what I did, this is where we are, now let's proceed.

[Guardian]

beer is awesume. voting me is anti-town. tcs extremely withotu reasoning this game. how does doc validate my innocent? mafia may have not targeted me even if they believed my claim, wtf bad logic.

bm needs replaced.

HH I already explained why ask sgain? post 2055.

[Guardian]

lol im town in most games atm, actually, lol. i cant go into detaisl b=cuz of rule s but yeah im pretty much always town. its funny . theres like maybe on e or two games where im scum and not this one.

[Guardian]

>.>
<.<

I left my laptop on on my bed and mafiascum was open. Just disregard those posts. I live in my fraternity house and last night was a Thursday night. ie, part of the weekend. I really don't like how Kinetic is trying to twist that into being a scum-tell.

And of course I wasn't drunk, that would be illegal.

[Guardian]

Jack -- I made the posts -- I usually wouldn't post drunk, but it occurred to me that it would be funny to do so since I left my laptop on my bed and mscum was open. I in no way meant to imply that someone else made the post.

Does anyone think that Kinetic and Guardian be the final two scum? It seems like Kinetic defends Guardian all too much..

Hm. I don't understand where you are getting that from -- firstly, I don't see how it makes sense for me to hammer Sarcastro, or to un-fake claim.

Secondly, Kinetic just placed me and lynch -2 for imo really bad reasons. With only two scum left, do you think one scum would do that to another?


Also MS, why do you think that I, as an SK, would un-claim. I want to hear your reasoning for this.

MS, Yos2, Shteven, TCS, Kinetic = my wagon.

MS, I want to hear from, why do you think I un-claimed?

Yos2, I don't think your vote is very justified either -- you seemingly voted for LAL reasons.

Shteven, your case seemingly was built on me being not a doctor. You were correct. However, not a doctor is not logically equivalent to being scum. As I explained to your case, the only somewhat logical point you have for me being scum is me being an SK, me being part of the mafia makes little sense at this point. Even then, how do you rationalize my claiming, then unclaiming, and NKing MoS and AE -- both of them were very opposed to lynching me, as an SK you most definitely want to keep your buddies around.

Shteven, I think you are voting me out of OMGUS and frustration at me lying. Think about this logically -- I am not scum.


TCS hasn't really explained anything all game, I am definitely an easy target at this point and his vote is pure wagonry. What happened to Billy?

And lastly Kinetic -- are you serious? I mean, really, are you serious? Your reason for vote switching was absolutely horrible.

[Guardian]

Jack -- I made the posts -- I usually wouldn't post drunk, but it occurred to me that it would be funny to do so since I left my laptop on my bed and mscum was open. I in no way meant to imply that someone else made the post.

You said "I left my laptop on my bed and mafiascum was open". What else is that supposed to mean?

A few people questioned that I would actually post inebriated -- I was explaining why it occurred to me to post -- because as I was going to bed I had to move my laptop, and I saw mafia scum.

Make sense?

[Guardian]

Why would it be a horrible and terrible move? People assume this, but I thought about it a great deal, and since it makes no sense for a doctor to counter claim with there being a potentiality of two doctors, and other than outing another doctor, I don't see the downsides of the play.

Well, first of all, your claim DID out another doctor.

It really should not have.

Second of all, there's any number of situations where you would later have been proved to be lying. What if a claimed cop dies while you're alive? That would make it pretty obveous you weren't a doctor.

None of those situations were in existence. Firstly, a cop had died, so there the odds were only 50% of there being a cop, and he had certainly not claimed yet. I fail to see any other "proofs".

And third of all, what if there were two other doctors? Say, if one had died night 2, then the other one would know you were lying and would probably claim to prove you were lying.

If one had died then, I'd have immediately claimed that I was lying -- just as I claimed I was lying as soon as MS claimed...

"So I wouldn't get lynched" is a terrible reason for a townie to claim doctor.

/disagree.

It prevented a pro-town player from getting lynched.

It delayed you being lynched. It hardly "prevented" you being lynched; in fact, i would say that the lie made your lynch inevitable.

/disagree. I see no reason why my lynch should be inevitable. It makes very little sense for me to be teamscum, and only a bit of sense for me to be SK.

My lynch is in no way "inevitable".

[Guardian]

I've drunk dialed. I've woken up with someone and not remembered where I met them. But I've never been drunk, went on the computer, navigated all those menus, found a particular game I was in, posted semi-relevant information, all while drunk.

You should try it, its funny.

You didn't do this once either, right before he was nearly lynched on day 2 (posts 1477, 1481), you all of a sudden acted quite drunk, and declared yourself town in his drunken stupor. And there were three hours between the posts. Once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern. You've never posted drunk in any of your other games I've been in with you, and you were under pressure in them too. I specifically asked you that question "while you were drunk" because I wanted to see if you stayed with the consistency of your argument. If you would have responded with "I don't know" or even "I can't talk about other games at all" I might have had to think more before voting you. But they way responded convinced me it was all a ploy. And REALLY, a frat part on a Thursday night? Please.

lol

In addition I find the fact that you were building up your doc claim WELL before you made it, with your "I have a power role" speech to all your breadcrumbing. The more I look at it the more I'm convinced that this was a deliberate strategy set forth from the beginning of the game and I can only suspect you've done it because you wanted to hide, but if you got caught you could claim one of the two doctors and ask the other one to protect you at night.

Yeah, people are probably going to nail me for this. I breadcrumbed doc as town, for the exact scenario that came up, and then I claimed doc. You probably aren't going to believe this. Oh well.

That's why I voted you, and that's why it stays there. I wasn't sure about if you were the SK before, and honestly I was willing to let that doubt keep me from voting you, but I can't justify that anymore. Everything you've done seems too calculated for my liking, even your 'mistakes'.

So as town I should play randomly??

I thought doc claiming was a very legitimate and powerfully pro-town strategy. I enacted it.

[Guardian]

Actually Jack, I think the reason he came out was because he is convinced that the Mafia targeted him last night and that a Doc protected him and that is why he isn't dead. Since mana came out and said he DIDN'T do that, Guardian prob. felt that there is a much better chance of there being a second doc out there than of there not being one.

lol. I came out so IF there was a second doc he wouldn't claim. Explain how that is anti-town, why don't you?

Glork seems like a very reasonable scum NK choice, I no longer am "assuming" that I was NK targeted.



I find it ludicrous how most everyone is like: "Guardian's almost definitely not team scum. But he lied. So let's lynch him."

The SK NK choice make no sense for me (both DEFENDED me), my claimingness makes very little sense, and LAL is a stupid meta policy.